NOOOO!
August 30th, 2012 at 1:03 pm by David FarrarThe four members’ bills selected are:
| 53 | Oaths and Declarations (Upholding the Treaty of Waitangi) Amendment Bill | Te Ururoa Flavell |
| 43 | Local Government (Public Libraries) Amendment Bill | Darien Fenton |
| 39 | Land Transport (Admissibility of Evidential Breath Tests) Amendment Bill | Scott Simpson |
| 2 | Care of Children Law Reform Bill | Jacinda Ardern |
Jacinda’s bill is a same sex adoption bill. Two major conscience issues in a week has almost killed me. The thought of another major campaign is enough to make moving to Palmie seem a good idea.
However while I am fully supportive of removing the legislative ban on same sex couples being able to adopt (note they can already adopt as individuals), I have blogged previously on the problems with this particular bill. I’m not sure it is a goer.
Complicating things also is that the marriage equality bill may lead to a de facto change in the adoption law anyway. One part of the Adoption Act refers merely to spouses, while another refers to husband and wife.
Tags: gay adoption, private members bills, same sex adoption
August 30th, 2012 at 1:06 pm
Oh look, another chance for the progressive John Key National government to vote overwhelmingly with the progressive Labour opposition.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 1:11 pm
The library bill although good in principle, will just result in libraries providing less and less services and items to borrow. No council in NZ can afford to raise rates to offset the income gained by these rentals, and other charges. So the only option will be to reduce services, ironicly achieving the opposite of what the bill sets out to achieve, which is libraries being for all and having greater availability.
Also as written it bans the use of over due and lost item charges for libraries.
Really a solution looking for a problem. But may be able to be saved in select committee, if majorily rewritten.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 1:35 pm
A bill from national’s back bench. Whatever next. Well done Scott Simpson
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 1:42 pm
Come on DPF – now youre acting like a spoilt kid.
If the same sex marriage thing becomes law – then there will be endless unforseen consequences. And just to give you some taste of this – there is a case in Dunedin court at the moment of incest – father and daughter – and offspring (poor bloody kid).
The court has decided not to sentance them – ie: its OK. And of course this will be an offspring of the same sex marriage thing.
Why cant father now marry son (Jeez what a thought), etc – and be equal in the queue for adopting.
Everyone is going to face some consequence. Just think we have these days calls for list of directors who are male and female – in a few years there will be bellows that the poofs arent getting a fair shake and theyll want to be listed in the directors list.
What a complete fucking shambles this will lead to.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 1:50 pm
barry is a retard.
And thats the only response his post deserves, and should get.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 2:01 pm
Don’t be so dismissive Kimble.
Someone was caught shoplifting a packet of chewing gum from Countdown this morning. All because of this. They said if it’s fair for gays to take marriage from decent society then taking a packet of chutty is fair too, especially if they are in poverty and really want to keep their hydro station.
All people deserve fairness, don’t they?
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 2:17 pm
Kimble – when you run into the consequences of this you might possibly say to yourself that maybe Barry wasnt such a retard afterall.
When the law is changed to enshrine the third gender (or maybe even fourth – gay male and gay females rather than just Gays) and employers have to provide facilities to cater for these extra genders ( at least THREE and maybe FOUR sets of toilets, changing rooms and locker rooms etc) and so on – then just maybe youll start to say to yourself – “this is one great big mess”
However – as a firm believer in free speech – you are totally entitled to make whatever comments you like – no matter how stupid or dumb. Sort of like the comments that crazy film maker made about the army medical a couple of days ago.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 2:21 pm
Todays herald reports on a threesome getting the all clear in Rio de janeiro. Was it Williamson MP who said ” how does that effect me ?”
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 2:25 pm
No to same sex adoptions!
At least, heterosexual couples get priority over homosexuals when adopting .
It’d be a nightmare to be raised by a same sex couple (would be for me). Imagine the teasing you’d get at school .
But, I would say it’s better than being raised by abusive parents.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 2:49 pm
***Also as written it bans the use of over due and lost item charges for libraries.***
Wtf? How silly is Darien Fenton? Like you say, this will just reduce library services.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 2:51 pm
It never rains but it pours, doesn’t it?
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 2:54 pm
PG
Vote:There seems to be a somewhat flippant tone in your posts lately
Has this all gotten to you?
August 30th, 2012 at 3:14 pm
In my not-so-humble opinion the responsibility of libraries should be handed back to Central Government.
It’s a social issue which should be funded by general taxes.
Obvious benefits if they were all controlled centrally.
Eventually everyone will be reading electronic readers linked to the one mainframe.
Anything to take the burden from rate payers. Most of whom never step inside the places.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 3:41 pm
Doubt it.
All I would have to do is recall your next statement about 3rd or 4th genders and separate toilets to reassure myself that you are a complete retard as well as laughingly homophobic.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 3:44 pm
Fortunately any law change wouldnt be retrospective. So rest assured some time travelling busy-body wont turn up at your childhood house to drag you off raised by a couple of gays.
I fixed your post.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 4:00 pm
I find it highly doubtful that gay men would want to become “parents” to an adopted child – it wouldn’t suit the lifestyle – one more often than not being a revolving door of short term partnerships and sex sessions with scores of different men.
Of course, there is another side to this which is always ignored. Homosexual adoption is not the same as heterosexual adoption. Two men can NEVER provide the intimate female nurturing that a mother provides. Homosexuals argue that they can balance this out by ensuring that women are in the children’s lives, but those women will, at best, be mimicking the roles of aunts, if that. Why should an adopted child be deprived of a genuine mother figure purely because of political correctness and social engineering? Likewise, two lesbians bringing up a child cannot provide the positive masculine influence that a father brings to a family.
Sure, we get media spun anecdotal reports and sociologists quoting studies purporting to show no major side effects, but sociology is a field riddled with both Marxism, from where it sprang from, and sexual and social liberalism. In other words, these sociologists are often guilty of trying to find evidence to fit their preconceptions.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 4:01 pm
Griff – how else can you respond to yet another “but if the cat shags the budgie and the priest makes them have a shotgun wedding and then the sky falls so there’ll be no place left for heaven” comments?
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 4:10 pm
Sure, we get f undie spun anecdotal reports and Christians quoting studies purporting to show major side effects, but god bothering is a field riddled with both ignorance, from where it sprang from, and sexual and social repression. In other words, these f undies are often guilty of trying to find evidence to fit their preconceptions.
There fixed it for you urban
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 4:30 pm
PG
Vote:I reached the same state long ago
Some of the arguments are downright mad and know we will have the whole gay adoption debate which is even more stupid
There will be reams of why should a gay couple be allowed to adopt its against nature yada yada yada when the real effect will be allowing gays to adopt their partners children from previous relationships. No change in actual make up of familys just legal recognition of the rights /obligations of the new partner
August 30th, 2012 at 5:13 pm
Based on your extensive knowledge of homosexuals, I expect, rather than blind bigoted ignorance that would seem more likely to result in enough gross stereotyping that it fair drips from your comment.
Given gay men wont want to adopt, what risk in it becoming an option? Your point is destroyed.
Neither can a solo father. And given single people can adopt, your point is destroyed.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 6:14 pm
@kimble —
Point being is that a child is best off with heterosexual parents with all other things being equal.
While i don’t care if gays want to marry I think the best environment for raising a child is the way nature intended.
Gays will just have to take their complaints about this to god, as there no way the government can legislate nature.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 6:53 pm
Yes barry @ 1:42.
Having opened Pandora’s Box which recall, you only need to open it a crack and all the evil escapes, how come the proponents of the same sex marriage are now getting gun-shy? Why not go the whole hog?
After all, you “astute” politicos had it all spelt out for you in one of the signs at the Wellington march yesterday: “We have only just begun” or words to that effect.
What’s the matter? Cold feet?
Well too late, people.
TheyYou sowed the wind, and nowtheywe are going to reap the whirlwind.Thanks. Appreciate that.
At least you had a warm tummy for a second or two. Wasn’t that worthwhile. Of course it was.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 7:07 pm
There should be NO right to adopt. Instead he state should have a responsibility to provide vulnerable children with the optimum family environment, from those that are ready and willing.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 7:14 pm
Quite so Reid. Where are the legions of ‘principled liberals’ campaigning for marriage rights for polygamists, and for those grotesquely discriminated against … because they are not permitted to marry their dog?
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 7:46 pm
I support the Gay Marriage bill, I am glad it will become law.
However, I cannot support the Gay adoption bill, to me this is all about the child and child’s best interest is being with a mother and a father.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 8:05 pm
Any law that increases children using library services must be good.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 8:12 pm
“Any law that increases children using library services must be good.”
Except they won’t.
Once again a Labour MP (and ex Junkie) decides that she wants to give away rate or tax payer money to bludgers.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 8:14 pm
Have you read the draft Bill?
Seems like it increases access to library services if you ask me.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 8:19 pm
^^ I guess philu will be back presently then…
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 8:20 pm
Hamnida
Yes I have.
Of course on planet Labour you lot think that this will mean that hundreds of kids who do not use the library services at the moment will come screaming in when it is paid for by other people (nothing is free)
The point is that it currently costs bugger all to belong to the library, any decent parent will find the 50c it costs to hire a book.
The offspring of feral scum are not going to take their kids to the library under any circumstances.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 8:39 pm
Hah. The omens are good. I expect to win Powerball on Saturday and Big Wednesday on Tuesday!!!
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 8:55 pm
Opps
That should have read….
The offspring of feral scum are not going to be taken to the library by their parents under any circumstances.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 8:55 pm
Bhudson –
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 9:00 pm
I’m almost glad this is happening, at least we can get it all into the open.
Same gender marriage and adoption, polygamous marriage infact all the combinations under the rainbow.
Pity it won’t be from a binding referendum so each Kiwi voter has their say and must say yeah or nay.
Key isn’t a man of principle but compromise (what DPF calls a pragmatist) so he won’t want to set a precedent coming to the people.
I’d like NZ society to not be able to say “it was rogue elements in parliament”.
Vote:I want us all to have to look each other in the face at the breakdown of what is best for our kids in years to come.
I’d like us all to be counted individually for our vote.
Think our members of parliament are man enough to do that?
August 30th, 2012 at 9:00 pm
Nah neither did I!
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 9:02 pm
If it really is about discrimination and human rights then lets see marriage opened up to all who are discriminated against by our politicians.
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 9:06 pm
^^ Let’s see you actually lobby for it then. It won’t happen without it…
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 9:06 pm
“Rogue Elephants in Parliament”!
Now I understand it all!
Vote:August 30th, 2012 at 11:12 pm
First up, I make no apologies for the rant I am about to unleash on this topic…
I am a man in a relationship with a man for the last 18 years. FIRST and hopefully ONLY relationship for both of us. We have had a Civil Union. And our kids were all there. We have been parents for over 10 years, at one time we had seven kids in the house!
Our kids – nephews and nieces to be technical -had been through hell before we stepped in and took them out of CYPFS care; violence, neglect, sexual abuse, you name it. Thanks to their straight Mothers and Fathers, their mental illnesses and addictions. We made a home for them, my partner gave up (highly paid professional) work to be there every day for them when they got home from school. They had baked afternoon teas for the first time in their lives, and parents who were involved in their schooling. We took them to counselling, we endured tantrums, acting out, kids who still soiled themselves til they were 10 as a defense against the abusers (so the counsellors told us). Kids who punched holes in walls, were getting drunk at 12, and allowing strange men to have sex with them down at the park at 14 because that all they’d known. One girl was stabbed in the abdomen and only mentioned it 2 days later to me – one of many trips to A & E wards and doctors over the years… but of course I would never know what it’s like to REALLY be a parent eh guys?
We kept their relationships open with their Mums open. Not that she was really interested. Sometimes we would take them over for the weekend and they would call 2 hours later wanting to come home. And our home is their REAL home. School counsellors placed two or three of their friends from school with us, one for three years, as they knew we were a safe child focussed environment with clear boundaries, and that the boys would be well-looked after and nurtured. In fact so many school friends were always coming over that we had to start limiting them, hell most of their friends were JEALOUS of their lives. We have lasting friendships with so many other parents. We have been heavily involved in school activities and my man is still Chair of the local school board. Role models? yeah I suppose. Young adults have come up to us in the rare occasions we make it to a gay club and said ‘Remember me? I used to come to your place when I was little…’ So some young gays and lesbians now have an idea of how they can live their lives as adults and how a same sex relationship can be. Do any of you have any idea what it’s like not to have that? Imagine if YOU had never seen or been in the home of another straight couple til you were an adult. And some of you wonder why SOME gay people can’t sustain a relationship.
All our kids are straight… NOT that it matters, (well one nephew is gay but he never lived with us at all).
So here’s the kicker, after all that I can’t actually adopt them with my man. He can on his own, but even after all that time together and even though the youngest can’t even remember me not being there, I can’t put my name on the certificate too. And if my man were to die – I DON’T OFFICIALLY EXIST. I’m just some guy, even though I raised them for over ten years!
But that’s OK. I’m sure one of you generous folks (Redbaiter, big bruv, Urban redneck et al.) will step up to the plate and parent a bunch of traumatised children with your perfect (by definition) female wife or partner. So walk the talk guys.
Jeez… I am running out of puff here. I just got so angry at some of these comments.
Anyway so now we are becoming grandparents as our boys and girls start producing children of their own. And some of them are unfortunately repeating the mistakes of their biological parents. But not all. But I’ll leave you with one image. One of our girls learned late in her pregnancy that her baby would be born with a non-survivable birth defect. Her bio-mother and father drifted in to the hospital for a brief visit, but we were with that girl the whole time she was in labour, and with that tiny baby girl as she took her first breath We were with her as she delivered that poor baby, we held that baby as she took her first breath, and held her an hour later as she took her last.
Later I drove to the undertaker while my man held her in his arms.
And thats what I consider being a parent – and it didn’t matter what sex we both are.
[DPF: Thank you for posting that]
Vote:August 31st, 2012 at 1:58 am
Thank you for sharing ^^^^^^ You have every right to be pissed off. Some people would rather kids were abused and left on the street, just as long as they were kept away from gay parents. Can you believe it?
Vote:I had thought christianity was all about unconditional love for one another, well you could have fooled me. The hate mob, who essentially just hate gays, should hang their heads in shame. Good for you, it must have been bloody difficult and will probably continue to be for some time.
August 31st, 2012 at 6:23 am
Thanks so much for sharing that Mrlimerick.
I grew up in a house with two mums. I decided at one point that I wanted to live with my father and his (current) wife. I lasted a week before I had to move back to a more stable situation as my dad was usually too busy at the pub to be home.
I decided a couple of years later that I wanted to live with my dad again and his new wife. I lasted two weeks this time before I needed to move back to a more stable family situation.
Someone posted above about kids being teased at school. Yes, that happened occasionally and this was 20 years ago! But was nothing more than any kid could easily handle and was better than being teased about my drunk of a dad
. It’s things like the marriage equity bill that will lessen kids being teased
I’m happy with the experiences I’ve had growing up and proud of the family I lived with. I’m just glad I didn’t have to live with my heterosexual parent.
Also I must say I’m amazed at how interested some people are about the personal lives of gays. Closet much? Come out, NZ is proving itself to be an accepting society although it does still have to catch up with the UK…they’ve had gay adoption for years!
Vote:August 31st, 2012 at 6:34 am
Mr Limerick.
Please take more care about who you lump me in with. Unlike Bedwetter I support the Gay Marriage bill.
You made one or two comments in your post that beg a cutting reply, however I am prepared to give you a pass on them at this stage.
What I did take from it is that you seem to have a victim mentality. So you took in members of your extended family and raised them as your own, well bully for you Limerick.
Plenty of straight couples do that as well, plenty of straight couples just get on with it without bringing their sexuality into it.
What you did was what any decent person would have done for family members, I have no doubt that you are a thoroughly decent person but your sexuality is not the issue here.
Sadly, this is what the gay adoption bill will become all about. It will come down to the rights of gay couples when all that matters is the care of the children.
Vote:August 31st, 2012 at 7:31 am
Well said BB
Vote:August 31st, 2012 at 12:52 pm
Hmmm… well OK BigBruv, I stand corrected on your support for the Marriage Equality Bill – my mistake, I’ve been working shifts til 5am and blame fatigue, haha.
Vote:I do take issue with your perception that I might have a ‘victim mentality’. The reason I was commenting on this topic is that we and other same-sex parents actually have ‘just got on with it’ for years, but we don’t get the automatic pass that many straight parents (biological or adopted) seem to get. Some people have assumed that we only did it for political purposes, others have been just plain rude or condescending about our supposed lack of innate parenting ability and what the kids might have been missing out on. Like any parent (good or bad), implied or overt challenging of parenting skills can get my hackles up! After 12 years of it maybe I’ve become a bit touchy that its still an issue for some and they feel the need to challenge. I also come from a farming family and had lots of brothers, which means I can be pretty pig-headed. My parents didn’t raise me to be a victim!
Bigbruv, have another read of my third-to-last paragraph. That is the reason this topic upsets me. That if my fella died, I couldn’t legally/automatically be the kids parent. Even thougfh I’d raised them for so long. In fact custody would’ve automatically reverted back to their mother who had neglected them and allowed them to be beaten and molested by her partners for so long… that’s why I got so pissed reading some of the comments.
September 2nd, 2012 at 2:44 pm
DPF – you went so gaga over the same-sex marriage bill that I would think you’d relish another social issues bill….I had wondered why so much enthusiasm, considering we can assume no vested personal interest…must be strategic.
Anyway, same-sex parents adopting should be a good thing, it can only hope to result in less abortions. Strict social conservatives may not see same-sex parents as the ideal foundation to a family but I hope they will see this as a better alternative to no life at all.
Unfortunately I can’t say the same of some social liberals who seem to think that no life at all is somehow better than one with a poor start.
Will be more interesting to see the debate on this bill.
Vote: