Are degrees worth it?
September 30th, 2012 at 10:14 am by David FarrarThe HoS reports:
New Zealand university degrees are the most worthless in the developed world, an international report reveals.
The value of spending years at university has been severely dented by an OECD report that reveals tertiary study adds little to our earning power – less than $1000 a year for women, not much more for men.
New Zealand is at the bottom of the global league tables. The net value of a man’s tertiary education is just $63,000 over his working life, compared with $395,000 in the US. For a Kiwi woman, it’s $38,000 over her working life – that’s less than $1000 a year.
When I read this story, I was suspicious. I recall in the late 1990s looking at income data for graduates and calculating the average boost in income over a working life is around $500,000 (gross, not NPV), and having Ministers use this in 1999 to say that this was a good return on an average $10,000 student loan etc.
Danyl has beaten me to it, and blogged:
The actual report is here. And the thing that they make really clear is that they distinguish between two categories of tertiary education. Type A – university degrees – and type B: (mostly polytechnics). Taken together New Zealand is at the bottom of the table. But if you look at degrees and advanced tertiary study then New Zealand isn’t doing that badly – and the countries that are doing extremely well on that metric are mostly countries with low rates of type A tertiary education. Their degrees are highly valuable because of their scarcity. Almost every statistic in the Herald story refers to non-university level education, but the entire story is about the alleged worthlessness of degree qualifications!
Yes, quite misleading to say degrees are worthless. We have a huge number of students at wananaga, with PTEs and the like who give non degree qualifications.
Tertiary education minister Steven Joyce, who has a zoology degree, said Government figures showing how much people earned four years after study were more positive. But even by that measure, those with a bachelor’s degree earned just 46 per cent more than those with a level-three school qualification.
Just 46%? That’s a huge difference.
Joyce said the Government kept an eye on under-performance at the lower levels of tertiary study. There was no improvement in pay for people who had done NZQA level-three and level-four certificates and diplomas. It was not until they reached a level five or six, or a level-seven degree, that earnings increased.
The point Danyl made.
The story generally had the right data, but it conflated tertiary study and getting a degree in an (unintentionally I am sure) misleading way.
The statement that university degrees are the most worthless is simply wrong. The 40% gain in earnings for a degree amongst 25 to 64 year olds is higher than Denmark, Norway and Sweden.
Tags: OECD, tertiary education
September 30th, 2012 at 10:21 am
Newsflash: Sunday newspaper makes badly researched and highly misleading claim!
Seriously – why do people bother reading the Sunday newspapers?
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 10:21 am
They should also distinguish between real degrees and bullshit ones such as Sociology, Anthropology, Women’s Studies, Classics, Psychology etc
They may be of value in places like America or Europe, but in NZ they are a oneway ticket to being only capable of public servantry and not being able to contribute to the country or the economy.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 10:23 am
Poor journalism and very poor headline writing. Wonder if she has a proper degree….
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 10:27 am
Probably one of those communications diplomas you get from the Auckland Institute of Technology. Whoops; I mean Bachelor of Communications Studies from the Auckland University of Technology.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 10:30 am
What? Do you think that an interest-free loan whilst learning the intricacies of nasal inhalation therapy or ethnomusicology isn’t a good deal? Upgrade your car now I say.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 10:30 am
Even so, Uni costs increase nearly every year, and they will increasingly face competition from Massively Online degree-level courses such as those offered by Udacity, Coursera and the like. Now that the Ivy League colleges such as Harvard, Stanford and MIT are offering radical new online alternatives, I think the threat to lesser known bricks and mortar universities is real unless some reforms happen in the tertiary sector.
Vote:Particularly as automation increasingly makes higher skilled work obsolete.
September 30th, 2012 at 10:42 am
I’d be interested to know if that comparison included people who left school and went on to become wealthy without the benefit of the progressive moind altering carried out in many of those places.
Vote:You can’t ignore the successful and wealthy just because they don’t fit. I know more people in that category that are wealthy that people who went to uni and became wealthy. (Most of the grads work for the wealthy. (or become lawyers and finance company executives, having learnt how to rip others off.)
September 30th, 2012 at 10:45 am
The reporter should take a “just 46%” pay cut.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 10:54 am
I reckon the wananga “degrees” are a complete waste of time.
Vote:Actually, there might be *one* good thing about them.
They might actually get Maori to think “Hey! I can do stuff! I can take off to Aussie now!”
If they do that, then some good does come of them.
September 30th, 2012 at 11:06 am
I’d be interested to know if that comparison included people who left school and went on to become wealthy without the benefit of the progressive moind altering carried out in many of those places.
They do (of course). But the vast majority of successful wealthy people have backgrounds in law, finance, engineering, medicine, architecture, accounting, etc, and formal degrees are a barrier to entry in all of those fields.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 11:11 am
Yet to meet a Sociology or Political Science graduate who can shear a sheep properly, or drive a bloody tractor without rolling it!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 11:12 am
As for killing and cooking their own bloody dinner…well!!!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 11:29 am
Very ironic advertising on the Herald site – the article has a massive “Open Polytechnic” ad in the middle of it.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 11:47 am
“They should also distinguish between real degrees and bullshit ones such as Sociology, Anthropology, Women’s Studies, Classics, Psychology etc”
When taught properly Classica is not for the faintbhearted.
Signed
A former victim of 8 am Greek classes three times a week.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:03 pm
Tom – I’m not saying it is easy (I studied at school and loved it) – but its completely worthless in the NZ job market. My friend majored in it and got laughed out of interviews and told it wasn’t worth wiping his ass with (literally in one case).
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:13 pm
“Tom – I’m not saying it is easy (I studied at school and loved it) – but its completely worthless in the NZ job market. My friend majored in it and got laughed out of interviews and told it wasn’t worth wiping his ass with (literally in one case).”
Then he should leave NZ. You might have noticed, but people are pretty thick here, and our universities aren’t very good. It’s not the same elsewhere.
They let you do Greek @ high school? I’m surprised.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
I had a teacher that did Greek in the high school boarding house. I think he was called Trev something.
Vote:He just disappeared, no questioned asked, as they did in those days.
More like the Catholic Church than they would like to suspect really the Presbyterians!
September 30th, 2012 at 12:26 pm
Most NZ university graduates are pretty much unemployable in any real business enterprise.
They’re so full of Marxist crap about the plight of the Maoris, woman’s “rights”, homosexual “rights”, how offensiveness is a hanging offense, and the rest of that leftist bullshit, they’re completely useless in any real world profit orientated scenario.
Not educated.
Just indoctrinated.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:30 pm
Lol @ JB.
The employment value of classics, philosophy, etc is supposed to be explained by the job market signaling hypothesis. The idea is that lazy students will avoid these subjects in favour of easier ones and diligent students will choose them to signal to employers their willingness to work hard at something with no obvious payoff (it’s a form of showing off). The same thing happens in the sciences. You will find the really able people doing the really hard stuff with no obvious job apllication beyind the academy like Physics (Goldman Sachs employs many Physics PhDs).
Bob Jones realized this years ago. But then again, he’s one of the few wealthy NZers who is an intellectual.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:32 pm
I’m torn. I got a degree (literature and philosophy) and was the first in my family to get a degree of any sort. So that was a major step forward for me. But many of my buddies got trades and raised families instead. Their kids are now grown up, leaving home and my ‘uneducated’ buddies are looking forward to a reasonably comfortable third stage of life. Mind you many of my buddies ended up with no prospects or in jail.
However, my degree put me in reasonably good earning brackets for a long time, and opened all sorts of doors for me.
Now we have ‘academic inflation’ and Degrees are not worth what they were. For my boy, I certainly won’t be driving him to get a degree, if he doesn’t want one. I’d rather he did what makes him happy, after all – it’s just a bit of paper isn’t it?
Or is it?
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:32 pm
“They’re so full of Marxist crap about the plight of the Maoris, woman’s “rights”, homosexual “rights”, how offensiveness is a hanging offense, and the rest of that leftist bullshit, they’re completely useless in any real world profit orientated scenario”
The Marxist content of NZ university courses approaches nil. It’s a shame really. He is a great thinker. Then again, so was Robert Nozick, who also gets ignored.
It’s OK Red, you are welcome in my gulag any time.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:37 pm
“However, my degree put me in reasonably good earning brackets for a long time, and opened all sorts of doors for me.”
Was your life enriched by understanding Plato, et al?
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:38 pm
I suggest your friend was all the luckier for it. As Tom J points out above, Bob Jones has long understood the value of an Arts degree. In his newspaper column during the ’80s, he was quite forthright in his view that he would employee a Classics major over a Commerce graduate.
It is unlikely your friend would have found a rewarding experience working for an employer who couldn’t appreciate the value of his skills.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:41 pm
“Most NZ university graduates are pretty much unemployable in any real business enterprise.”
What business do you run RB and how many have you not hired in (say) the last ten years?
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:42 pm
You know, Conservatism in general would do itself a huge favour if it dumped Ayn Rand in favour of Karl Popper.
Just sayin’
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:42 pm
If they could at least do maths and or read and write employers might just be able to get over all the useless Marxist bullshit.
So many of them can’t pass even that mediocre hurdle.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:42 pm
“What business do you run RB”
He fills hot air balloons.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:45 pm
Tom, don’t have a clue where you’re coming from.
Conservatives for Ayn Rand??
Jeezuz- what far galaxy did you just time warp in from?
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:45 pm
“If they could at least do maths”
Shit I manage a business and I got 3 for maths in 1965 school cert!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:46 pm
Coarse oi kun reed und wroite!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:46 pm
“If they could at least do maths and or read employers might just be able to get over all the useless Marxist bullshit”
Quantification is a form of rape.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:47 pm
A degree usually demonstrates a commitment to obtaining one,not giving up and a social benefit to the indebted holder as well.
Vote:Degrees of Indifference, Intolerance and Frustration are readily avilable at any on line blog or Dotcomedy store.
Go the AB’s.
September 30th, 2012 at 12:48 pm
“Jeezuz- what far galaxy did you just time warp in from”
The one in which Paul Ryan is the veep pick.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:48 pm
We need to actually do things Johnboy.
Its a workplace scenario that sends most graduates into a frozen panic.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:50 pm
Romney is a wet liberal. Never been a Conservative and never will be.
True Conservatives value the Constitution.
They were into small government long before the endlessly rattling loon Ayn Rand (aka Alisa Rosenbaum) was a gleam in her Russian father’s eye.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:51 pm
We don’t really want to end up like the US, where a degree is the basic requirement for any professional job, even if it does nothing to train one for it. In the US it is assumed anyone with any academic ability will go to university. All that does is put them deep in debt as the tuition costs keep skyrocketing. In the US Arts, what we called Liberal Arts, are the most popular degrees and just show you can learn. My degree was in History and my first job was as an accountant.
The bigger problem over there is that in this economy and with so many people having degrees many still end up in retail or other low-wage jobs but saddled with massive loans they can’t repay. This prevents them really entering the economy, spending all their income on loans. Most of my friends back there still live at home or on state subsidised rent and work as security guards, liquor store clerks, supermarket cashiers etc. We need to make sure university still means something in NZ.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:53 pm
NOW you are talking fuckin sense Red.
It’s the getting things done that the sad little shits, we bang out from the Uni’s and the Poli’s and the Whunga whatever’s with there useless bits of paper, can’t bloody do.
I used to think that civilisation and the pursuit of knowledge was an ongoing thing.
Now I’m not sure!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:53 pm
“Romney is a wet liberal”
Genghis Khan is a liberal to you.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:54 pm
“NOW you are talking fuckin sense Red.”
Its the budget and the schedule that really terrifies them.
Kind of really far out alien concepts.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:56 pm
13 years since we both graduated – my mate with the Classics degree gets paid half what I get paid (I got a BSc in compsci). I’m still unconvinced that it was worthwhile.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:57 pm
Who is the true originator of Obamacare?
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:58 pm
We really need more bloody Sparkies, Plumbers, Chippies and Mechanics Rightandleft.
We have a plethora of damn useless folks, with nothing degrees, that think the world owes them the money to pay off the stupid loans they took out!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 12:59 pm
“13 years since we both graduated – my mate with the Classics degree gets paid half what I get paid (I got a BSc in compsci). I’m still unconvinced that it was worthwhile.”
Look at his bookshelf.
Then look at yours.
I probably get paid less than you. I don’t care.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:01 pm
Still while I say that I’m always amazed by the number of tattooed fellows who turn up at work stating that they have a forklift license and are obviously in expectancy of immediate employment!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:04 pm
“Who is the true originator of Obamacare?”
Lord Xenu?
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:05 pm
No cigar.
Romney.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:08 pm
“Who is the true originator of Obamacare?”
Jesus of Nazareth? (when he got Lazarus back on his feet).
No. Hang on…… it was Arthur Owen Woodhouse!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:10 pm
Tom – he barely reads anything – my shelf contains a mixture of technology books (I need to stay relevant so read a book every month on new tech), Ian Fleming and Bond related books, and science fiction.
What was your point? That he has more interesting books?
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:10 pm
“Romney.”
I doubt that. Original thought is yet to be added to the Mittbot’s digital cortex.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:12 pm
Why is Obamacare so important to Pelosi and Reid and the rest of the commies?
Because nothing makes the uneducated populace more eager to enslave themselves than the illusion of “free” health care.
And Romney went for it. Idiotic liberal.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:16 pm
“Original thought is yet to be added to the Mittbot’s digital cortex.”
True, but he did institute Romney/Obamacare in Massachusetts.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:17 pm
“When I read this story, I was suspicious. I recall in the late 1990s looking at income data for graduates and calculating the average boost in income over a working life is around $500,000 (gross, not NPV), and having Ministers use this in 1999 to say that this was a good return on an average $10,000 student loan etc.”
That calculation does make much sense to me. I remember when doing stage 3 micro the prof pointing out just how little degrees were worth and that was back in the 80s.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:22 pm
“Tom – he barely reads anything – my shelf contains a mixture of technology books (I need to stay relevant so read a book every month on new tech), Ian Fleming and Bond related books, and science fiction.”
My point is that different people value different things. I would find those technical books to be boring, and SF bores me as well (I find the characters to be shallow). I would post a pic of my bookshelf. It contains most of the major works of western philosophy and literature – a good portion in the original languages.
My point is that life generates opportunity costs. Other people don’t like the stuff I like. Fair enough. But that is par for the course. To denigrate people who choose other paths in life is silly. Our society imposes various opportunity costs. That’s it.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:25 pm
Hey Tom, try John Bertrand’s “Born To Win”.
Robert Ringer’s “Winning By Intimidation” is also another helpful book.
(They’re not self help, they’re inspirational autobiographies.)
Or (afterthought) maybe John Keel’s “Strange Creatures From Time and Space.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:27 pm
Hey Red, try the
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:28 pm
Enneads.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:32 pm
Oh yeah,
“On the Nature and Source of Evil”
Read that one did you?
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:35 pm
Johnboys bookshelf contains:
“Speer reloading manual 1970″. “Homekill for Amateurs”. “Complete Guide to Dagging for Amateurs”.
Every issue of “Rod and Rifle”. and an autographed copy of “The Female Eunuch”.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:36 pm
Next time around, Im not going to bother with my degrees. Out of school, B.Com / LLB. Then when I hit 30, MBA supported by global consulting inc. All good stuff, BUT next time, plumber or sparky. Mate who I went through school with is a plumber. Beautiful house, lovely bach, boats (plural) o/seas holidays every 6 months. Good cash job. Hate the bastard
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:37 pm
Told you so hmmokrightitis!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:45 pm
I think Danly and DPF are defending our rundown tertiary education system for their own reason. Certainly the student loan scam combined with the bums on seats policy has pushed too many people into useless degrees which certainly aren’t worth the dollars spent, event in educational terms.
Then you have to include the lact of reinvestment of those dollars – the only “capital investment” is in the Orwellian “human capital” (academic jobs) and building (fletcher’s jobs). Investment in new technology has been woefully lacking so now in science and technology we are being out competed by China, India and south east Asia big time.
Add to that the raw materials – the bums on seats policy has allowed any person and their dog to get a tertiary qualification; governments have shamefully used it to hide unemployment paying for long term unemployed and solo parents with no academic interest to go to university.
Add to that the fact that even with a good degree there is no industry to keep these people in NZ so they go overseas to aid other economies instead – thumbing their noses at us because they have large student debts, while they were sitting next to no hopers who were being paid to go to university.
Some lefty motives for talking up our system are to keep their academic job, while DPF’s motive is to defend his “precious”. I wonder what he would have written in 2007?
But, apart from a few people with good degrees who stay in NZ, and a number with good degrees who flee NZ, basically the OECD report has it right. So in NZ why bother, just to French poetry and get a government job.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:47 pm
“Read that one did you?”
Yes. Formlessness or unintelligibly. In other words: matter.
I prefer “On Beauty” myself.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:50 pm
“So in NZ why bother, just do French poetry and get a government job.”
Eggzactly.
And while you’re in that government job, do the best you can to fuck up everyone who doesn’t work for the government.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:50 pm
Yes add that to the list – the NZ public has been scammed into thinking academic good and road to success, purely to save the jobs of those teaching ancient french art, psycho humanist babble, treaty claims trough feeding and pet homoeopathy. Now they are a politiical force we’re fucked.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:51 pm
“Yes add that to the list – the NZ public has been scammed into thinking academic good and road to success, purely to save the jobs of those teaching ancient french art, psycho humanist babble, treaty cliams trough feeding and pet homoeopathy”
How dare people spell properly!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:53 pm
Still we import overseas folks to work at the Museum of New Zealand ( I won’t use the other name
) cause we don’t produce enough useless mouths of our own apparently! 
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:55 pm
I’ve got no time for Greek philosphy Tom. I’m so utterly consumed by what I do it exhausts me of the energy for every other interest. (apart from occasionally blogging and commenting on political issues, but this is part of it as politics has a huge influence on the success or failure of what I do, and its frequently a knife edge I only just manage to balance myself upon)
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 1:56 pm
“I’ve got no time for Greek philosphy Tom. I’m so utterly consumed by what I do it exhausts me of the energy for every other interest”
Fair enough.
Opportunity cost.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 2:06 pm
Johnboy (8,831) Says:
September 30th, 2012 at 1:35 pm
Johnboys bookshelf contains:
“Speer reloading manual 1970″. “Homekill for Amateurs”. “Complete Guide to Dagging for Amateurs”.
Every issue of “Rod and Rifle”. and an autographed copy of “The Female Eunuch”.
Aha, that must have come from Penny the wool Scourer of Remuera Fame.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 2:09 pm
No V2. She sent me the “Urban Guerrillas Guide To Water Meter Sabotage”.
I didn’t want to mention it in present company you understand!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 2:12 pm
Germaine autographed the other book after spending a night in my wool shed, back in the days when male/female roles were more defined!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 2:13 pm
Danyl Mclauchlan (1,026) Says:
September 30th, 2012 at 11:06 am
I’d be interested to know if that comparison included people who left school and went on to become wealthy without the benefit of the progressive moind altering carried out in many of those places.
They do (of course). But the vast majority of successful wealthy people have backgrounds in law, finance, engineering, medicine, architecture, accounting, etc, and formal degrees are a barrier to entry in all of those fields.
What unmitigated tripe.
There are All Blacks earning more cash than most of the above except medicine. Add to that farmers, plumbers, crane owners, in fact many business owners.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 2:14 pm
I guess she must have seen your copy of Home Kill for
:eek: 
Vote:Sicko’sFarmhands.September 30th, 2012 at 2:15 pm
Have any of you bastards tried to hire a bloody crane at a reasonable rate recently?
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 2:18 pm
“Have any of you bastards tried to hire a bloody crane at a reasonable rate recently?”
Can’t be worse than bloody dentists.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 2:20 pm
Dentist’s come cheaper than fuckin lawyers.
They don’t play act as much either!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 2:23 pm
@Tom Jackson:
I’m fully in favour of this. As you say, people make choices. What gives me the shits though is that the same people I went to university with who used to pontificate about how their life would be much richer because they knew the classics, whilst mine would be poverty stricken because I studied IT, now think that I should be taxed more and my money redistributed to them.
In short, if we accept that life is a bundle of choices, then why do we ask the government to get involved in redistributing some of the outcomes of those choices but not others. Why do we redistribute income, but not redistribute the happiness or free time that others have (either because they studied things that make them happy, or because they have little work due to the low value of their qualification – which is offset by their ability to think deep thoughts in that spare time through their knowledge of the classics).
I’m OK that someone who is truly unfortunate and cannot find work gets subsidised, and that my taxes fund that. I’m not OK that someone who chose to be low paid, and whom has a lot more free time than I do, has a right to my income being redistributed to them.
I wrote more eloquently on this some time ago:
Vote:http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/01/pagani_v_dim_on_economic_growth.html#comment-922362
September 30th, 2012 at 3:01 pm
There are All Blacks earning more cash than most of the above except medicine. Add to that farmers, plumbers, crane owners, in fact many business owners.
The number of All Blacks as a proportion of the total unqualified workforce is, what? 1:300,000? Ditto for crane operators and farmers (many of the latter are qualified btw).
Most unqualified workers are earning salaries in retail, hospitality or the service industry. They’re the lowest paid people in the country.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 3:22 pm
Tom Jackson …
stuff with no obvious job apllication beyind the academy like Physics
But Physics is widely applicable in many areas, from biology, sociology, medicine, engineering, computing to finance & economics. There’s no surprise there that Wall St firms employ a lot of PhD physicists (including mathematicians & computer scientists) to model the financial markets, because according to the founder of one of the big hedge-fund firm there (Prof. James Simons):
Prof Simons:
Original article: Renaissance hedge fund: Only scientists need apply
The reason physics’ graduates in this country have not being employed in the finance industry here is because those at the top of those companies have no clue to what relevant knowledge brings in to the finance/economics domain. But physics graduates are still mainly employed in the engineering (including R&Ds). Just turn up at Fisher & Paykel Healthcare and you see that almost half of them (technologists) are physicists (from all levels – BSc, MSc & PhD) and the other half of staffs at F&P Healthcare or the rest came from engineering studies (mechanical, electrical, engineering science, computing & software engineering, etc,…). Most of the top managements at F&P Healthcare (including top R&D individuals) are PhD physicists. I know a few of them since I was in the same year in the Auck Uni Physics Department with them. Dr Dexter Cheung is the head of product development at F&P Healthcare (Respiratory and Acute Care Division), Dr. Mathew Payton (Product Group Manager), Dr. Geoff Bold (Head of photonics R&Ds).
I think that our Universities are running courses that need not to be taught at all. Some courses are definitely belong at Technical institutes rather than being taught at Universities, like Film & Media Studies.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 3:53 pm
The number of jobs in retail, hospitality or the service industry, are what 1,000,000?
They are the most employed folk in NZ.
Pity for the poor unemployed Libarians and Biological Technicians and all those folk with an honours degree in Greek Classics!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 3:55 pm
Still a seat on the next ark awaits them Danyl.
Vote:
September 30th, 2012 at 4:31 pm
Even if the story were correct, it would come under the category of “So what.” A university degree is an education, not a job qualification – the kind of job that needs an educated person to do it is going to be paid at a higher rate than unskilled work, but there’s no obvious reason why it should be paid more than skilled trades work, unless there’s a supply/demand reason to pay more.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 4:36 pm
First time I have ever agreed with you PM.
We have created some kind of LaLa land in NZ where you are a loser if you don’t go to Uni and a winner if you do even if your chosen course of study leads to a dead end.
Maybe we need a degree majoring in reality.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 4:46 pm
Must say, my degree was pretty worthless (IT). Seemed to get lots of interviews but I suspect they were for ticking some kind of diversity box in order to show their employment procedures were inclusive….or whatever.
Thankfully I had a life prior to obtaining it whereby I did real work that involved sweat & working with tools…..ooh err. Self employment & flexibility has a lot going for it.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 4:48 pm
The harder you work the richer you get eh Dazzaman?
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 4:54 pm
No Johnboy the harder he works the luckier he gets. And we all know that the socialists want to tax those of us who are lucky enough to be wealthy.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 4:57 pm
You need to get a better accountant and lawyer PaulL and you won’t be so bitter!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 4:59 pm
Yeah, living in Australia and did my taxes today. Very bitter, in particular about the extra “temporary” tax Julia Gillard slapped on to pay for the Qld floods, when they should clearly have been paid from consolidated revenue. But of course consolidated revenue had already all been wasted on boondoggles. I really hate paying tax, it makes me particularly bitter.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 5:07 pm
What can I say?….. And folks feel they will be better off in OZ!
Traitors to a man (woman). Get back here and bask in the glorious reality that is Godzone.
Despite the pricks we have running it it is still the best little country in the bloody world!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 5:56 pm
Yeah, pity about the weather tho Johnboy. And the limited job opty combined with the tall poppy syndrome. Even with the rampant lefties in Aus I still pay less tax here.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 5:58 pm
Nah nah na nah na. Our PM has a prettier looking nose than your PM PaulL!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 6:05 pm
All todays posters will receive his seminal book “How to put out a cigar” by William J. Clinton (with illustrations).
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 6:28 pm
No use fala, deaf ears. Universities used to be seats of higher education. They taught the teachers and experts who,would be in charge. Now they are just technical colleges teaching meal ticket qualifications, many of which should not be degrees.
The division of labour had a reason – the best and brightest would be chosen and they would lead a vital and vibrant economy.
But the proletariatisation of higher education has been achieved by watering down the curricula and concentrating on applications rather than foundations and principles. You can now do maths degrees, virtually without any theorem proofs,these days.
Hence many graduates are unable to translate their knowledge into leadership roles. They expect to be given a high paid government funded job instead of creating their own success.
The losers are,the graduates, the taxpayers and the nation.
Oh look I’ve got a BFA, I,must be bright. I deserve a good job.
Employer here try,this.
BFA- That ain’t good enough.
BfA to MP – i’m unemployed even though ive got a degree.
MP – Fuck off
BFA – there are 10000 of me
MP – oh we can’t have that, I’ll get the 1 billion dollars we had earmarked for growing a smart export economy into creating jobs for BFAs
BFA – thanks mate. I’m successful, I have a degree and a good job.
Taxpayer – oh, hello third world.
Therein lies the problem, when our democracy takes us away from the law of supply and demand and completely warps our economy.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 6:35 pm
As a number of people have noted earlier in this thread, those who choose to do a “non-meal-ticket” degree should not be beaten up for their choice – as long as they don’t then expect to be bailed out of the consequences! As an aside I was amused by an article I read a few months ago that claimed that 50% of aerobics instructors in the USA have a degree! I don’t think that even falls under the rubric of grade inflation.
One of the big problems, at least in the USA but possibly also here, may be that students enter university with no real idea of the income impact of either their choice of degree or the amount of debt they may have to incur to get it. I guess I should have saved my fire for when this topic came up in a thread, but just a few days ago I posted a link to an article on this topic by Walter Russell Mead – Obama’s War on the Young (despite the title, he voted for Obama in 2008). He makes the following point:
And we’ve increasingly gone this route in NZ as well. Occasionally people will hammer away at the fact that it was National who moved to a student loans scheme and “bums on seats”, compared to the previous model of government funding of an elite who would attend university. But as with most markets that go astray, that’s not really the problem. The problem is that “funding” became cheap and easy from the government, combined with a societal engineering approach that more university degrees in the population was the answer to an increasingly competitive world and the funding should target this (the same belief as in the US). Now in America this has led to the very sad consequences that Meade outlines, with a link to a more detailed (and even sadder) article from the NYT:
Here in NZ we’ve gone a different route with student loans by wiping the interest and being no where near as punitive in pursuing the debtors. One could tout that as being “better”, but actually it’s simply an equally flawed approach to the real core of the problem, which is that a combination of easy money and grasping universities allow students to get into crap they can’t get out of by borrowing too much money for too little qualification.
In light of neither the US or NZ solutions being particularly good it’s another point that Meade raises that needs to be considered here – and it goes back to my point about the way goverments can stuff things up even when they think they’re doing good:
And so on and so forth. Read the whole thing – and the NYT article that goes with it.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 6:43 pm
Oh – and another damned piece I placed in GD that was more suited to this thread – Havard graduates losing to South Dakota School of Mines & Technology.
The who?
There’s justice in the world perhaps? Thanks again fracking!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 7:07 pm
Same as aussie.
Western Aust. will have 30,000 graduates this year. Who will earn the most? Those that go minning.
As long as our Govt. fail to remove the shackles and discrimination against young people this issue will continue to fester. Locking young people from the workplace by determining their worth by statute will continue to stop them being employed and pushed to polytecs and Uni’s just to come out with a debt.
The world is full of educated unemployed because they cost too much. People who are stuffed for years because of their debt. Listen to them moan about not being able to buy a house.
Learning is forever and until you know what spins your wheels you are wasting your money.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 7:13 pm
If I was a younger man I would go bloody minning tomorrow!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 7:32 pm
Finally there is this note from historian Victor Davis Hanson, who has taught Ancient Greek History in California universities for twenty years – California: The Road Warrior Is Here:
Bloody sad. I wonder how different it is for NZ across all those measures? I’d like to think we could not be as bad as California.
Is it any wonder that across the USA, only about 60% of college students actually finish the standard four-year degree in that time – and that’s before assessment is made of the quality, practicality and cost-benefit of achieved degrees.
Aside from applying the question – are degrees worth it? – to individual students, perhaps the bigger question is whether the whole shebang is worth to the respective societies?
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 8:07 pm
This is not directly related to the topic of discussion here, but I think that it is of interest (indirectly) to what’s being regarded as worthless studies and useful ones. The first document is a short essay on the topic of network science, which most of the cutting-edge research have come from Physics.
The network takeover (this article was written targeting the general public – easy to understand)
Now, here is something that I want to highlight in this discussion. Majority of professionals from economics/finance have no idea if network science is applicable to their domain or let alone head of it, but yes it does apply and here is one of them.
From Graph Theory to Models of Economic Networks. A Tutorial
Most Cell Biologists & Epidemiologists have never heard of this network science domain before or simply majority have heard of it, but simply being ignorant to its applicability in their domain, but network science applies there.
Network medicine: a network-based approach to human disease
In Sociology & Criminology, the majority of those professionals are still using the traditional descriptive statistics in their analysis and still the majority have never heard of network science and the ones who have heard of it, don’t have a deep understanding of it.
The Coming of a Networked Criminology?
In fact, the derivation of the Google’s page-rank search algorithm was derived using the network theory.
The main point of my post is that some field of studies are completely useless for job prospects. Fields like Physics and others, there may be no obvious job prospects, but that’s because of the poor knowledge of the employers what relevant knowledge that the applicant in his field of studies can bring in to the role.
For example. Has anyone here seen a job in our law enforcement, that has been advertised which they look for a physicist (perhaps for an analytical role)? Zero. It had never happened and it never will. The reason is that those employers have no idea that certain knowledge from Physics are applicable in their own domain.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 8:09 pm
Speaking of mining, a work colleague’s son has recently gone into mining. Average degree in nothing, 1 year in the workforce, earning $100K per annum on a fly-in, fly-out basis from Melbourne. No expenses whilst in the west. His job is to work with the geologist, he takes the samples out of the core, labels them, and puts them into appropriate sample boxes.
He went to Bali on holiday and fell off a moped, buggered up his leg. He can’t wear mining boots, can’t work without wearing boots. He’s at home on full pay until he gets better. I did ask my colleague whether his son, who lives at home, and earns $100K for doing nothing, is paying rent. Apparently not.
Law of supply and demand I suppose. If people knew just how easy making good money was in mining, they’d all want to do it.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 8:12 pm
Surely the forces involved when a baton hits a skull come under physics FF?
Not to mention a subject close to my heart internal, external and wound ballistics.
Stupid Police. What opportunities they are missing!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 8:14 pm
I don’t want to go mining PaulL, it’s minning that has got me interested!
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 9:51 pm
Ah. Is that kind of like minging?
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 10:04 pm
It’s probably like a shaved version of minging.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 10:12 pm
This report doesn’t take into account the number of Kiwis who gain a degree in NZ and then head overseas.
Vote:September 30th, 2012 at 10:15 pm
Heh. Apparently the internet is contributing to a significant shift over time in…..grooming…. of private bits.
Vote:October 1st, 2012 at 1:02 am
Philosophy graduate here, and my salary shits all over 95% of commerce graduates from the same year.
Perhaps you could apply the same careful analysis to this as you did to the national standards data? (then again, no need to grasp at straws here I guess).
Vote:October 1st, 2012 at 12:59 pm
Tom Watson: Was your life enriched by understanding Plato, et al?
Good question. On one hand yes, it underpinned why it is imperative to discuss and debate injustice rather than collude with it by one’s silence. it also illustrated how our intellectual tradition was kick-started, and also how the Platonist view subverted ‘open’ humanistic discourse and sowed the seeds of authoritarianism into ‘western’ culture tradition. I’m doing some higher study even now, and my Degree was invaluable, and will be throughout my life.
But I’m reminded of Steve Martin’s observation about studying philosophy at college:
Vote:“They teach you just enough to screw you up for the rest of your life.”
October 1st, 2012 at 1:43 pm
@questions: commerce isn’t exactly a real degree now, is it. And presumably you’re also familiar with the concept of a distribution, and the need to look at averages not just a single data point?
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