Ironic indeed

September 18th, 2012 at 4:53 pm by David Farrar

Dr Zain Ali writes in the NZ Herald:

Sam Becile’s recent “movie” depicts Muhammad, the prophet of , as a buffoon, a womaniser and a child molester. The movie is far from a genuine attempt at social or theological criticism; rather, it comes across as a work created by a group of misinformed and bored misanthropes. Unfortunately, many in the Muslim world have taken the bait, and have responded with acts of brutal violence. The saddest moment in this outpouring of rage was the death of US ambassador to Libya, Chris Stevens (all this on the anniversary of 9/11).

The violent protests involve a cruel, and perhaps bitter, irony. The protesters believe Becile’s movie besmirches the honour of Muhammad, and this is because the movie depicts Muhammad as being a violent, bloodthirsty, womaniser. The irony is that the protesters have responded to this movie with acts of violence, all the while believing that Muhammad was a peace loving and virtuous person. 

It is sad and ironic.

I believe the tradition of Islam represents a spectrum of views, and there is a centre made up of those who welcome intellectual honesty, equality, secularism and pluralism. The problem is not that Islam lacks a centre, but that mainstream Muslims are being out-manoeuvred by the violent and irrational fringe. This fringe dominates the headlines and shapes the public view of Islam and Muslims.

The person of Muhammad is dear to the heart of Muslims, and the reason for this is that Muhammad represents an important, and challenging, ideal. Prior to Islam, there existed tribes, some of whom had hated each other for generations. Muhammad was able to transform hate and distrust into genuine love and trust. Muslims love Muhammad because he showed it was possible to love each other while being at peace with ourselves.

Given what Muhammad represents, we can argue it is the perpetrators of violence who are the ones who have besmirched and dishonoured Muhammad. After all, Muhammad is reported to have said that, “the strong are not the ones who overcome others by force, but the strong are the ones who control themselves while in anger”.

Most Muslims are “moderate”, tolerant and respectful. New Zealand’s Muslim community for one is a good example of that.

All religions have extremists, and violent fanatics. However it is fair to say that a far greater proportion of Islamic adherents are extremists than with other religions. I believe this is partly because the religion has no central authority that can unambiguously condemn violence in the name of religion – and also because Islam has no ability to modernise its beliefs (due to the lack of central authority).

Tags:

102 Responses to “Ironic indeed”

  1. Falafulu Fisi (2,176 comments) says:

    Sam Becile’s movie of mohamed is an excellent one. It showed that Mohamed can lick a woman’s pussy, a good humor.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Does anyone out there apart from PG , still really believe in ”the fringe?” ”The fringe” is a lie especially manufactured and endlessly repeated for the poor silly infidel..it is propaganda. They ALL study the same texts. Some of the violent excerpts of the Koran have been posted on other parts of KB today. It is a violent , warlike , misogynistic , primitive , male , arab , supremacist cult which aims to dominate the world..The whole religion thing is also propaganda. It is not a religion ; it is a cult. As in all cults , the really difficult thing is trying to leave…Who knows how many ex muslims have been murdered? The more well known ones have to live under constant protection.
    Somewhere today I saw a good site outlying all the games muslims play..There are a lot of them..”The small violent fringe” is a perenial favourite and a very useful one at present.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    Low average IQs in many of the countries is probably more important than a lack of a central authority.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. Black with a Vengeance (1,552 comments) says:

    oooh you’re inviting a fatwa on your fat white ass talking that sort of shit DPF…hahaha

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. trout (865 comments) says:

    This is the protest season in the Northern hemisphere; a combination of large numbers out of work disaffected youth and hot, hot weather drives these crazies to vent their anger on any nominated target.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. Bob R (1,250 comments) says:

    @ Chiz,

    Unfortunately, cousin marriage is a real problem in that respect.

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/07/cousin-marriage-can-reduce-i-q-a-lot/

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1394119/Its-time-confront-taboo-First-cousin-marriages-Muslim-communities-putting-hundreds-children-risk.html

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. Longknives (4,044 comments) says:

    Still waiting for all our regular ‘Christian Bashers’ to arrive and have a crack at Islam…..waiting…waiting…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. Gosman (335 comments) says:

    What I think is missing from the wider debate, (certainly I haven’t seen anyone bringing it up), is that it looks like the main protagonist behind the production of the video was a Coptic Christian and why would this person be so upset with Islam that he made a rather nasty, (and poorly made), movie denigrating it. There has been an awful lot of commentators mentioning how the reaction of the protestors have been influenced by the US and Western ‘oppression’ of Muslims around the World. It could equally be argued that Coptic Christian’s from Egypt feel so agrieved by their treatment by the Muslim majority that they responded by lashing out in this way. Too much this sort of subject gets tied up in just Muslims hurt feelings and not on a wider understanding that many of them are just as guilty as being a cause of this as others.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. berend (1,600 comments) says:

    Let me see: a political ideology, masquerading as religion, with a founder who married a 6 year old, consumed the marriage when she was 9, secondly killed a husband, married his wife and consummated the marriage on the same day, and thirdly who spread his religion with the sword, is, what’s the term, peaceful?

    Right.

    Just two stories from the “most” moslim side:

    1. On National television: Egyptian Professor of Political Science Gamal Zahran: ‘By Next Year, Allah Willing, Israel Will Be Annihilated’

    2. Actor slaps and fells female host, denounces Israelis, in Egyptian TV ‘prank’ gone wrong:

    Two Egyptian actors, “pranked” by an Egyptian TV station over the weekend into thinking that they were being interviewed by Israeli TV, responded furiously onscreen. Both of them attacked a man they thought was the show’s Israeli producer, and one of them, Ayman Kandeel, smashed up the studio and slapped the female host he thought was Israeli so hard that she crumpled to the floor.

    …. He says to Mubarak, “If you weren’t a girl, the moment you told me you were Jewish… I hate the Jews to death.”

    Why oh why would people believe muslims are violent?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. Dave Mann (1,126 comments) says:

    Who is this guy Dr. Zain Ali? He’s great. This must be one of the few times that I have read a sane and balanced piece written by a Muslim on the subject of religious fanaticism.

    Maybe lots of Muslims are saying things like this and maybe they just aren’t getting reported… I dunno…. but it’s refreshing to read this.

    The closest I have read to this was some Muslim fella in Australia (sorry, no link coz I’m on my phone) who seemed to disapprove of the rioters there, but he cancelled himself out by also condemning the film – which seemed like a justification to me.

    Anyway, Dr. Ali… thanks for your balance and sanity.

    (p. s. the film WAS absolutely cringingly idiotic, wasn’t it? I mean… honestly, the people who made it are total fuckwits. But this in no way justifies the OTT Muslim reaction worldwide.)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. Gosman (335 comments) says:

    I have no problem bashing Islam Longknives. I also dislike much about Christian theological teachings, especially when it is from an organised perspective. However Islamic theology holds a special level of distaste for me as I think it is antithical, and a threat, to the rational humanist ideals that frame my world view.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. Gosman (335 comments) says:

    This piece by the late, great Christopher Hitchens I think covers many of the subjects raised by the kerfuffle created by this video

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. Gosman (335 comments) says:

    berend raises a very pertinent point. Every day in the Muslim world there are dozens of articles and even videos produced that normal everyday people in the West would find objectionable. Jews especially are constantly being harranged in the Arab world’s media. The West does not respond in such a barbaric manner.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    Bob R – isn’t first cousin marriage a mainly pakistani thing rather than an islamic thing? Its certainly true however that there is lot of noticeable facial dysmorphism on display at some of these protests.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. East Wellington Superhero (1,151 comments) says:

    “I believe this is partly because the religion has no central authority that can unambiguously condemn violence in the name of religion – and also because Islam has no ability to modernise its beliefs (due to the lack of central authority).”

    Yes DPF, this is a very good point. Despite its faults, the Catholic Church, and until recent times the Anglicans, have been able to denounce those who misread scriptures and/or mislead others through charima or guile because the central authorities have a good cadre of wise heads that rank & file believers not only follow, but respect too.

    Another concern I have, which many Catholic theologians have commented on, is that at its core, Islam teaches that God is ‘pure will’; that God does not need to be rational and ‘live by the rules he sets’. A Catholic lay-person can say “er, sorry your eminance but that’s un-Christian and not backed by tradition and a rational approach to Natural Law and revelation.” Unfortunately a muslim leader can say “God wills it”, and there is no strong academic comeback to this.

    This does not mean that Islam is going to go bizerk one day, but it is an interesting academic consideration.

    I cannot say the same for non-Catholic Christian denominations because I’m Catholic and not an expert. That said, Protestant use of the Bible is largely personal interpretation too – which is an issue and probably explains why Protestant academic thought has been weak – and seems to be diappearing along with the Anglican Church (which was half Catholic anyway).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. kowtow (6,690 comments) says:

    Mohamed had a number of Jewish tribes exterminated and their women sold into slavery,including sex slavery. The koran ,a plagarism of the Old and New Testaments is full of hatred for the Jews as they did not convert.

    Islamic apologists never talk about this aspect of the literal word of God.Mainstream Muslims are well aware of this ,they just don’t talk about it with outsides as it’s so controversial ,especially in the west .

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. Reid (15,530 comments) says:

    Why oh why would people believe muslims are violent?

    Whereas of course, one can easily see plain as day that Christians aren’t violent at all, are they? And neither are Jews. I mean there aren’t any reports of those two groups committing violence, is there.

    When are people going to wake up to the obvious fact the west is being led into a Christian-Muslim conflict, not because its necessary but by design. It’s been happening full-scale for over a decade, small scale for another decade, yet still, many many useless moron foolish idiots on both sides insist on pretending that one side never commits violence (it’s “self-defence”) whereas the other side does nothing but.

    And if anyone not directly involved in the conflict, such as all of us here in NZ, had anything whatsoever between their ears they would plainly see the drop-dead obvious fact that the useless moron idiots on both sides think the same thing. And yet that obvious, plain, uncomplicated and apparent observation never sinks in, let alone the implications arising therefrom as soon as one sees that is, in fact, the case.

    I guess that’s why on both sides, there’s a heck of a lot of useless moron idiots. After all, the plan wouldn’t work if there weren’t, would it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. Chuck Bird (4,403 comments) says:

    What is the name of former Labour MP who thinks it is okay to stone homosexuals to death but not in NZ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    Chuck – that was Ashraf Choudhary.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    Berend is **right**.
    The bottom line is that the film -amateurish though it is – represents what Mohammad was ***truly like*** – NOT what Muslims would like the West to think of him as (as some kind of Islamic version of Buddha. ***Nothing could be further from the truth***).

    Did you see the scene in the film where the woman is tied to two camels and ripped in two? That **actually happened.** Her name was Umm Qirfa – she is mentioned here –
    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-elderly.htm
    “The captured women included Umm Qirfa:
    She was a very old woman, wife of Malik. Her daughter [and another] were also taken. Zayd ordered Qays to kill Umm Qirfa and he killed her cruelly by putting a rope between her legs and to two camels and driving them until they rent her in two). (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 980)
    The old woman’s daughter was brought back to Mecca along with the other prisoners, where she was awarded to her captor as a “prize.” This was before Muhammad noticed her:

    I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) met me in the street and said: “Give me that girl.” (Sahih Muslim 4345)

    After having been “killed cruelly” the old woman was spared the sight of her daughter passed between lustful men, which included the prophet of Islam himself.

    The eminent scholar, Sir William Muir, notes:
    We read of no disapprobation expressed by the Prophet at the inhumane treatment of Omm Kirfa, and are therefore warranted in holding him to be an accomplice in the ferocious act. (The Life of Mahomet)
    **********************************

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. kowtow (6,690 comments) says:

    Reid

    the west isn’t being led into a conflict. Ever since Isalm burst out of Arabia, the Islamic world has been at war with everything around it. This is just another chapter in a very long book.

    Today in history.Peace of Belgrade 1739, Serbia ceded to the turks. No wonder theSerbs are so pissed off with the west and the Kosovans!
    History is important.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    Weid:When are people going to wake up to the obvious fact the west is being led into a Christian-Muslim conflict, not because its necessary but by design

    Do enlighten us. Who is behind this? The Invisible Spider Beings from the 11th dimension?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    Kowtow is right too, folks.

    To cut a long story short – Islam has been **at war** with everyone else since the days of Mohammad. It will STAY at war with everyone else until it either triumphs over us, or it is defeated.

    I must make this very clear – we will **not** defeat it by caving in to its demands. That is what Europe and the UK are doing, and that is why they are in **huge danger** from Islam. Not from terrorism, but from ***subversion – being undermined from within.***

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. Reid (15,530 comments) says:

    kowtow, chiz and thor, way to prove my point. As to whose behind it, what’s the point in even discussing that if you don’t even recognise it’s happening?

    You guys remind me of the general public in Europe in the 30′s as the war clouds began slowly to gather. Ignorance however is much more culpable these days, what with the information sources available for those who have a mind. Unless of course you attended school in the 80′s or beyond. That would explain a lot.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. tom hunter (4,004 comments) says:

    I think everybody should also read this interview with Zeyno Baran.

    Mr Baran is a senior fellow of the Hudson Institute and editor of The Other Muslims: Moderate and Secular and some of his comments need to be placed alongside those of Dr Ali and DPF’s, particularly these two:

    Given what Muhammad represents, we can argue it is the perpetrators of violence who are the ones who have besmirched and dishonoured Muhammad.

    You certainly can argue that, but the real question is whether you’re winning, or even whether you can win. What exactly would winning mean in this context anyway? That the worst passages of the Koran will be stricken from the record? That some New Testament equivalent will be added to the Koran? Or will it simply be the pragmatic response of so many ordinary Muslims who immigrated to the West over the past 100 years: that these sections will simply be ignored?

    I ask because, as Mr Baran points out:

    This struggle is essentially a Muslim civil war over whose definition of Islam will be accepted as “mainstream.”

    Since the 1970s Islamists have made tremendous headway in this struggle thanks to money from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf region; they were thus able to establish institutes and networks all over the world to spread Islamism.

    Today, many Muslims don’t even realize what they believe to be authentic Islam is in fact a primarily political ideology of recent origin. Non-Islamists are still lacking in the financial resources — whether state or private — necessary to organize effectively against the Islamists; this is true as much in the West (the focus of this book) as in Muslim-majority countries. So, in the short term I argue that Islamists will continue to be winning in this struggle.

    That said, I believe in the longer term both non-Islamist Muslims and non-Muslims will eventually wake up to the realization that Islamism is a serious ideological challenge to universal human rights.

    Oh really? How many Christians would take a similar attitude to their own religions vs “human rights” (gay rights anyone), even nowadays, let alone over the last few hundred years? Would Dr Ali, a self-proclaimed “moderate”, take such an attitude towards his religion?

    Most Muslims are “moderate”, tolerant and respectful.

    What exactly do we mean by “moderate”? Because as Mr Baran says:

    … the misuse of the label “moderate Muslim,” by Islamist groups operating in the West, has indeed led to major misunderstandings. This is precisely why I used this term in this book — to clear up this misunderstanding and reclaim the term from the Islamists, many of whom represent themselves as “moderates” to Western policy makers. American and European policy makers have accepted as “moderate” people who do not commit violence; to me, however, that is a very narrow definition.

    An Islamist that participates in the electoral process yet does so with the goal of limiting women’s rights or of introducing a sharia regime is not moderate.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. Scott1 (357 comments) says:

    I’d like to object to the media refering to this as an “American film” this just furthers the impression in the west that the US government made the film in order to annoy the muslim world.

    Obviously that is a moronic assesment …. but when they are as badly wrong about it as they are in this case* – surely we should stand up to them and rub their noses in their own crazyness as opposed to just charitably interpreting their definition and using it to headline all our news stories.

    *
    - a movie that isn’t even a full movie
    - wasn’t even blasphemous (as filmed)
    - made in the USA via deciet
    - by a person already considered a criminal in the US
    - then overdubbed at some point in an unknown location and subtitled (maybe in egypt) which is hte thing that got them upset.
    - and intended to provote them to act like animals

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    Another thing I should make clear –
    Islam (Muslims) are **excellent** at playing “the long game”.
    You may have heard of the story about the camel inching its nose into the owner’s tent. Bit by bit, he makes his way inside. Finally, the tale ends with the camel saying (to the tent’s now **former** owner) – “get out of my tent”.

    **That** is the approach that the Muslims are using, and it is **MUCH** more dangerous (and more successful) than terrorism. The mosques come, then the prayer rooms in schools and businesses, then demands for “separate this, separate that” (e.g. swimming times for Muslim women). Then, halal food in schools and businesses. On and on it goes, like the frog being slowly warmed to death in a pot.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. tom hunter (4,004 comments) says:

    There’s also this quote that seems appropriate:

    Zeyno Baran:
    The true divide within Islam is not between violence and nonviolence, but between moderation and extremism. Few Muslims resort to violence — but many more share the thinking of the violent extremism.

    Unless the ideology of Islamism is understood as the root cause of the violence, I don’t believe we’ll see an end to the terrorism and radicalism among Muslim communities.

    Moderation has to start with thought; if we are giving a free pass to those with extremist ideologies as “moderates,” then the true moderates will continue to be weakened.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    Reid:As to whose behind it, what’s the point in even discussing that if you don’t even recognise it’s happening?

    So you aren’t going to share your wisdom and insight with us then?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. Fletch (5,719 comments) says:

    Here is what Winston Churchill said about Islam –

    How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.…A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

    Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities … but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome. [The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pp. 248-50.]

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    “Free speech” has been dead in Europe and the UK for decades now.

    Over there, it is no longer possible to publicly criticise Islam (***even if*** your statements about it can be ***100 percent backed up*** by the Koran itself.)
    You would **think** that a defence of **speaking the truth** would be sufficient to keep you out of court. Not over there, and it has been like that for a long time.

    I do **NOT** want that kind of environment here, and so if that means putting the noses of the Reads of this world out of joint, then so be it – I am pleased to do so.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. Fletch (5,719 comments) says:

    What film? Al-Qaeda themselves say the Benghazi attack was ‘revenge’ for a leaders death.

    Al-Qaeda said the deadly attack on the US consulate in Benghazi, Libya was in revenge for the killing of the network’s number two Sheikh Abu Yahya al-Libi, SITE Intelligence Group reported Saturday.

    “The killing of Sheikh Abu Yahya only increased the enthusiasm and determination of the sons of (Libyan independence hero) Omar al-Mokhtar to take revenge upon those who attack our Prophet,” Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula said in a statement, quoted by the US-based monitoring group.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. CharlieBrown (789 comments) says:

    Its funny how he didn’t try to defend the child molester claims of the film. I suppose you can’t argue the fact that having sex with a 9 year old girl makes mohammed a child molester.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. Reid (15,530 comments) says:

    So you aren’t going to share your wisdom and insight with us then?

    chiz my wisdom and insight on this is about 5 seconds away from a quick google and an open mind. Of course it doesn’t work if you don’t possess both ingredients.

    If you want a very partial, very partial and peripheral or perhaps longitudinal answer to the question though take a look at a post I just made on GD which is aposite.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    If I understand correctly (and I am quite confident about this) – the film has been on YouTube for ***several MONTHS***.

    It was ONLY on the anniversary of Sep 11th that a few Islamists decided to stir things up, and things went from there.
    The violence was ALL ORCHESTRATED.

    FAR from any of the Western leaders “apologising” for it – they should be standing up and saying to the Muslims –
    “Boring film. Free speech. Go away.”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    So, Reid – please **do** enlighten us with your views on Islam.
    Why should the world be denied your “pearls of wisdom”?
    Please – enlighten us, O Enlightened One…………

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    Islam is Christianity with the grace of God removed.

    There are very definitely more peaceful religions than Islam, quite frankly, a peaceful Moslem is one that isn’t following the religion correctly.

    You can not avoid the blatant meaning of certain passages in my arsehole, they really stink. oh I mean the Koran, he he :D

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    You are correct, Shunda.
    The terrorists **are** in fact the **only true Muslims**.
    They are following the teachings of Mohammad **to the letter**.

    I had to stifle a laugh of disbelief when I saw one of the Islamic leaders in Aussie waffling on about “the peaceful teachings of Mohammad…..”.
    For Gawd’s sake….. pathetic attempt at taqiyya (lying) by him there.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    “All religions have extremists, and violent fanatics. However it is fair to say that a far greater proportion of Islamic adherents are extremists than with other religions.”

    Sweeping generalisation. Catholics in the IRA and Protestants in the UDA might challenge this. As would some of the genocides and gynocides carried out on behalf of the papacy wishes, inquisitions torture and hangings. What religion were the National Socialists, and how many jews did they wipe out – was that moderate, and humanely reasonable. Further to that what about zionist who would cheerfully erradicate palestinians in the name of religion? The atrocities by the Japanese Buddhists in World war two, claiming to represent te divine right of their emperor, the list goes on and on.

    Ironic, indeed.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. Reid (15,530 comments) says:

    I do **NOT** want that kind of environment here, and so if that means putting the noses of the Reads of this world out of joint, then so be it – I am pleased to do so.

    First of all thor the only route to peace is understanding, not isolation.

    Secondly try to step away from your polarised view on this issue and stop imagining that because I criticise the west’s actions I’m therefore on the Muslim’s side. Take another look at what I said. Didn’t you notice I was saying that those people who are useless moron idiots on both sides believe the other is wrong. Or did that distinction escape you because, just like the fanatics and thugs from Hezbollah, Al Qa-ida etc, you too are similarly steeped in the western version of precisely the same propaganda which is generating this issue?

    The violence was ALL ORCHESTRATED.

    Clap clap, thor. So who orchestrated it?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. OneTrack (1,960 comments) says:

    thor42 – ‘FAR from any of the Western leaders “apologising” for it – they should be standing up and saying to the Muslims –
    “Boring film. Free speech. Go away.”’

    But they won’t. Either they are too scared, or, (more likely in my opinion) their own ideology won’t allow them to even say the words. It doesnt fit with their world view.

    nb Some of the commenters on KB seem to be in the same camp.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. KH (686 comments) says:

    They are all complete fuckwits. And dangerous. Idiots who go out of their way to make an anti-muslim movie -why. Muslims who murdered the ambassador – why. Those Chinese demonstrators trashing Japanese made cars on TV last night. Over some rock in the South China sea -why. All batshit crazy. Unfortunately some (just some) of the commentators on this post would join them in a flash.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    Oh, dear Reid – we “UNDERSTAND” perfectly well!
    It is YOU who lacks “understanding”.
    You just do NOT “get it”.

    Muslims will NOT just “give up” if we sit down and have a “nice cup of tea” with them. That is **naivety** in the extreme – I am embarrased to see you say that!

    It proves, once and for all, how little you know of Islam.

    How much do you know about Islam, Reid?
    How much of the Koran do you know?
    Are you familiar with (for example), the concept of “abrogation”?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  44. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    agreed.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  45. berend (1,600 comments) says:

    East Wellington Superhero : Despite its faults, the Catholic Church, and until recent times the Anglicans, have been able to denounce those who misread scriptures and/or mislead others through charima or guile because the central authorities have a good cadre of wise heads that rank & file believers not only follow, but respect too.

    Almost choked on my dinner. The Catholic Church believes what the pope says to believe. They can believe anything, and they have. They have no Bible, because when it contradicts their teaching, the church always wins. Matthew 23:9: And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Let me see, who again took the title holy father? The pope doesn’t take the Scriptures as the infallible Word of God, if they denounce, they denounce those who disagree with the pope.

    Secondly, the Catholic Church, to this very day, sells indulgences. People might not know what that is, but let’s say you are a Middle Eastern War Lord wanting to have intercourse with a 9 year old. You give the pope some money, and he sells you an indulgence, i.e. a permit to sin. And that’s it. A transaction between two consenting adults, both parties happy.

    When has the pope ever really denounced someone? Do they withhold mass from people who promote abortion? Nope. Do they refuse their money? Even more nope.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  46. MH (558 comments) says:

    Have we heard from the Chief NZ minaret wailer condemning these protests, silence is tantamount to approval. Let the moderates muslin clothers march down Queer St hand in hand with the Church leaders from Kris Krischristondemn and show us cynics that we can live together under the Won God. Has anyone asked Sunny Bill Williams what he thinks of the filum ? And when will the media stop calling them suicide bombers,that is to respectable,they are callous indiscriminant murderers,underserving of ACC or even WINZ handouts.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  47. Reid (15,530 comments) says:

    How much of the Koran do you know?

    Nothing at all thor, but I don’t need to. For I know and understand propaganda and social engineering and this is what’s happening, whether or not you can see it.

    This is not repeat some righteous struggle against demonic fanatics who would kill us all if we give them an inch.

    That’s fucked in the head territory, Arizona.

    Yet that’s what useless idiots in the west have slowly slowly slice the elephant so they don’t wake up have been told by various propaganda mechanisms for many years. By the western MSM. Until you get useless moron idiots like yourself just so outraged and fanatical it’s hard to tell the difference between you and any screeching Jihadist shouting Allahu Akbar.

    Fuck I just wish the world could just organise an island somewhere to put all you guys together so you sorted it out yourselves, while the rest of us ditched CNN, Fox, MSNBA, the NYT, WaPo and all the rest of them (because we put all of them on the same island).

    But sadly we’re not allowed to do that. Damn this stupid civilisation.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  48. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    Let me explain “abrogation”, folks.
    “Abrogation”, in the Koran, means that when two verses contradict each other, the later verse “takes priority”. It “abrogates” (makes obsolete) the earlier one.

    Why is this relevant?

    If you read the Koran, you will see that in the beginning (when Mo had little or no power), there were quite a few hippy-dippy lovey-dovey verses.
    ***BUT*** – after he gained power and influence, and moved from Mecca to Medina, the nature of the verses changes enormously.
    That is when we see verses like “Kill the unbeliever, wherever you may find him” (and there are LOTS more like that).

    So – what this means is that if there is a verse saying (say) “Jews are cool” and another later one saying “slay the Jews”, the later one takes precedence.

    To cut a long story short – almost ALL of the early peaceful verses in the Koran have been ***abrogated*** by later, much more violent and hateful verses.

    So – ***if a Muslim*** shows you a peaceful-looking verse in the Koran, you can bet your last dollar that it will be an ***abrogated*** verse – no longer in effect, and if you ASK HIM whether it is, he will LIE.

    The lying is called “taqiyya”.
    Lying is not only **allowed** in Islam – it is ***encouraged***.
    Anything that spreads the influence of Islam is encouraged, and that includes lying.

    Not only that, but for terrorists, things that would normally be forbidden in Islam are fine and dandy – the reason being that jihad and the killing of infidels trumps ***everything else***.
    You’ve heard about terrorists who yahooed up in nightclubs the night before doing their thing? That’s why. They believe that they will be forgiven their “lesser sins” because they did the “good deed” of killing infidels.

    You get the picture. Islam is a bloody deceptive **cult**.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  49. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    Well well – “nothing at all”. At least you are honest there, Reid.

    So – given your admission – ***how on EARTH*** do you think that you are qualified to lecture to US? We who DO understand Islam MUCH MORE than you do?

    Where do YOU “get off” saying that WE are “wrong”?
    How can you say that when you admit that you know NOTHING about Islam?

    **I** sure as heck DO know about it, and if you swallow your pride (fat chance) and do some reading of my posts, you might learn something about it too.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  50. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    There has been an awful lot of commentators mentioning how the reaction of the protestors have been influenced by the US and Western ‘oppression’ of Muslims around the World. It could equally be argued that Coptic Christian’s from Egypt feel so agrieved by their treatment by the Muslim majority that they responded by lashing out in this way. Too much this sort of subject gets tied up in just Muslims hurt feelings and not on a wider understanding that many of them are just as guilty as being a cause of this as others.

    To the Coptics, Islamic violence is not something that can be argued away – it is a reality of day to day life. I’ve met one myself, and his story is like this guy’s – fleeing Egypt to save his life.

    So in a sense this is the bully getting “revenge” for being told he’s a bully.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  51. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    Who says that **we** are the useless moron idiots, Reid?
    It is YOU who knows nothing about Islam (by his own admission), who is the idiot.

    YOU, who cannot see that freedom of speech has been killed in Europe – dead for decades now. Does it make you happy that Islam can no longer be criticised in Europe, Reid? Is that a “good thing”?

    YOU, who cannot see that the leftard MSM has killed dissent.

    Gaddafi boasted that Muslims would “take over the West without needing to use guns”. Do you not believe that they would be capable of doing that?
    No – of course not. Appeasement is the answer to everything, isn’t it?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  52. Reid (15,530 comments) says:

    Well I have read Islam and the Jews by Mark Gabriel which is interesting, thor, but I’ve never read the Ko’ran and don’t plan to. So what?

    Didn’t you read what I said? This is propaganda with a capital P. Are you saying we need to understand a particular religion before we understand they’re being painted and persecuted through propaganda? Duh.

    How can you possibly think that?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  53. RRM (8,988 comments) says:

    I believe this is partly because the religion has no central authority that can unambiguously condemn violence in the name of religion – and also because Islam has no ability to modernise its beliefs (due to the lack of central authority).

    Well, they don’t have an equivalent of the Pope…

    But I notice the grand Ayatollah of Iran just renewed the reward for killing Salman Rushdie…. delightful. What central control they do have doesn’t appear to be much of a force for good.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  54. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    Reid – Islam is *not* being “painted by propaganda”.
    It is extremely violent, vicious and hateful towards non-Muslims.
    If you had read the Koran (as I have), you would know that.

    Surely, it is very difficult to say that Islam’s portrayal is “propaganda” if you do not know anything about Islam?
    I think that you have difficulty believing that it could be as bad as it is protrayed.
    I am telling you that it is. However, feel free to ignore me….. ;)

    Anyway – I’m off to other parts of the ‘net now, so you (and everyone else) will have some respite…..

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  55. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Q. What is the difference between the Prophet Muhammad and Michael Jackson?
    A. One is a pedophile child rapist and the other recorded six platinum albums.

    Q. Why don’t Muslims eat pork?
    A. The Koran forbids cannibalism.

    Q. Why do Arab men wear dirty bed sheets?
    A. Because a camel can hear the sound of a zipper from a mile away.

    Q. What’s the difference between Mecca and a bowl of yogurt?

    A. The yogurt has a living culture.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  56. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    When are people going to wake up to the obvious fact the west is being led into a Christian-Muslim conflict, not because its necessary but by design. It’s been happening full-scale for over a decade, small scale for another decade, yet still, many many useless moron foolish idiots on both sides insist on pretending that one side never commits violence (it’s “self-defence”) whereas the other side does nothing but.

    Uh, by “Christian-Muslim” you mean the religions, right? Because you must remember that Richard Dawkins calls himself a “cultural christian”.

    And that’s important, because in the west we generally have seperation of church and state. Which means that decisions are made by leaders of the state without consulting the leaders of the church – meaning that it’s pretty durn hard to blame “christianity” for any conflicts.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  57. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Dr Zain Ali
    in a previous article advocated the establishment of a sharia banking system in New Zealand.

    Next thing will be sharia law just for the muslims only in NZ

    Next thing will be sharia law for all in NZ.

    islam, the religion of peace teaches that you submit to islam or you die.

    Anyone care to argue that is incorrect.

    Muslims will never integrate into NZ society, just like they have never integrated into any western
    society anywhere. Why do apologists and self haters here think NZ will be the single exception ?
    The best answer to that question so far has been, it will be different in NZ because we embrace and celebrate
    our muslim immigrants more than any other country. They will appreciate that and therefore overlook a basic
    tenent of their belief.

    Get real. Muslims are poison in democratic western societies.

    Slow acting poison, but poison nevertheless.

    We must wake up and refuse to drink the cool aid.

    Sadly i fear that by the time we do wake up it will be too late.

    Dr Zain Ali came to New Zealand, why cant he just adopt our systems, why does he advocate sharia ?

    He cannot adopt our beliefs because that is not the way of muslims. It is against their religion.

    How stupid can we be ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  58. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    Are you saying we need to understand a particular religion before we understand they’re being painted and persecuted through propaganda?

    Persecuted?

    People are walking around the streets of Sydney with signs calling for the beheading of people who disagree with them and you call them persecuted?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  59. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    http://www.beretta-online.com/wordpress/2012/empirical-insights-on-terrorism-and-ideology/

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  60. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    Almost choked on my dinner. The Catholic Church believes what the pope says to believe. They can believe anything, and they have. They have no Bible, because when it contradicts their teaching, the church always wins.

    This is truer than many catholics would like to admit. The Catholic Church put the Bible on the banned list of books back in the day – it was in fact the protestants publishing illegally which eventually changed that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  61. Fletch (5,719 comments) says:

    berend, scrubone, what a load of bollocks.

    It might pay to actually learn something about the Church before you go off with half-cocked criticism…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  62. Brian Smaller (3,915 comments) says:

    Moderate Muslims are a complete irrelevancy. They are not in charge of the Muslim world, the money going into mosques around the world or the scholars of Islamic jurisprudence who tell believers to hate infidels (and Jews in particular). If only the moderate Muslims had any influence, it would be great. Or better yet, if they were all members of the fringe Islamic ascetic sects it would be even better than great.

    People say that Islam needs a Reformation. Unfortunately, it already has had it. Sheikh Mohhamed ibn abd-al-Wahab rejected the way Islam was going (becoming too secular) and in the 18th C did his version of nailing his thesis to the a church door and brought the faith back to what it is today (Wahabism). All the jihadists are practising the “reformed” religion. All that Saudi money hasn’t hurt them either.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  63. tom hunter (4,004 comments) says:

    What film?

    Now that’s a very good point. We’re into basic narrative management here by even discussing this stupid movie on a dedicated thread.

    There’s a hell of a lot more going on here than that and although it does have much to do with the “Muslim Civil War” described by that also bleeds into the usual power relations within nations (Salafists vs. Muslim Brotherhood) and between nations.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  64. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    It might pay to actually learn something about the Church before you go off with half-cocked criticism…

    “When in doubt, consult the Pope”

    http://nzconservative.blogspot.co.nz/2007/08/mother-teresa.html

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  65. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Have a look at this.

    Where is it innacurate about mohamed or islam ?

    Maybe some one can point out any inacuracy.

    What about you Dr Zain Ali ?

    Where does it go wrong ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  66. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    just in case you missed it, check it out at 6.16 mins in
    Did mohamed say that ?

    Yes he did.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  67. wtfunz (133 comments) says:

    @ thor42 – outstanding stuff thanks :).
    Reid obviously thinks you are a part of the “propoganda machine” the West has running 24/7 telling people about the false planes, beheadings, women made to wear full body robes, education being made illegal, suicide bombers, mass murders, muslim fanatics and a generally nasty religion.
    Worst of all he wants the rest of us an island – wow!!! Reid – best you hop on a plane and go see for yourself dressed as the Pope. We’ll run a sweep stake to see how long you last.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  68. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    An interesting page here – a list of supremacist statements by Muslim leaders.
    http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/maps/forum/topics/list-of-supremacist-statements

    ( I’m sure these can be easily confirmed too… )

    Just a couple of quotes from the above page –

    ““One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.”
    – Houari (Mohamed) Boumedienne, President of Algeria, 1965 – 1978, in a 1974 speech at the UN

    “There are signs that Allah will grant victory to Islam in Europe without swords, without guns, without conquest. we don’t need terrorists, we don’t need homicide bombers. The 50+ million Muslims [in Europe] will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades.”
    − Muammar Gaddafi, Supreme Leader of Libya

    “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran . . . should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth.”
    − Ohmar Ahmad, co-founder of CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations)

    CAIR, I’m sure you will know, is what the MSM like to think of as a “moderate”
    voice of Islam. Not so. When they talk to the West, they use “taqiyya” (there is the term again) to lull us into a flase sense of security.
    These people are *not* fools. It is the *West* who are fools.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  69. East Wellington Superhero (1,151 comments) says:

    @ berend

    Sorry, but you’re simply wrong. Happy to discuss offline if you want.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  70. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    @wtfunz – thanks! :)
    I **do** know Islam, from top to bottom.

    As I have mentioned, freedom of speech, including the public criticism of Islam, is dead in Europe. See what happened to Geert Wilders – he did **nothing more** than **warn people** by speaking the pure, ugly truth about Islam, but he got hauled up before the courts.
    He was acquitted, but another person – Elizabeth Sabbaditsch-Woolf – did exactly the same thing (in Austria) and was convicted.

    When you can no longer freely speak out against **anything that is a danger** – that is truly a great loss.
    How easily freedom is lost

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  71. pq (728 comments) says:

    Mr Farrar, he writes often firstly with another persons quotes, and makes comment from there,
    and now he is an international news agent, he was actually mentioned in the Bangkok times the other day.
    So we must be careful about what he says.
    This is is his reply to the violence of Islam , against a meaningless film which he has not seen

    “All religions have extremists, and violent fanatics. However it is fair to say that a far greater proportion of Islamic adherents are extremists than with other religions. I believe this is partly because the religion has no central authority that can unambiguously condemn violence in the name of religion – and also because Islam has no ability to modernise its beliefs (due to the lack of central authority).”

    Farrar is heading for blog soft liberal media.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  72. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    The **sad** thing about the situation in Europe is that **speaking the truth** is no longer the “most important” thing to the powers-that-be there.

    Truth comes **second** to “will this statement cause someone to feel offended?”

    So – **even when** you can point at the verses in the Koran and say “LOOK!
    This backs up what I am saying!” – that no longer matters.

    Truth is dead, and freedom of speech died with it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  73. hj (5,677 comments) says:

    Question: I have read that most Muslim schools focus on rote memorization of religious texts and discourage independent thinking. In other words, the students are required to memorize passages from religious books, but they are not allowed to learn about modern scientific ideas such as evolution, history of nations compiled by secular historians, or anything which would conflict with the religious tenants of Islam. Some of the religious schools merely propagandize militant Islamic beliefs and indoctrinate little boys into becoming warriors for the next Jihad. Is it because Islam itself discourages intellectual activity? Does Islam really permit critical thinking?

    Answer: I would rather say that Islam encourages critical thinking instead of just permitting it. At scores of places in the Holy Qur’an, the Almighty has exhorted man to think about the signs that are spread around him and that testify to the greatness of Allah. The Holy Qur’an reads:
    http://www.renaissance.com.pk/Novq22y3.html
    ………..
    Excuse me? Telling people to look and what to see is critical thinking?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  74. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Thor,
    I loved your frog in the pot scenario..very accurate.
    Some one asked who is behind the video..I am not sure but it may be Father Zacharia Botros..I was reading about him maybe ten years ago..He had a very high profile in the Middle east and was widely known in Europe ..He is an Egyptian Coptic priest who had a television ministry which broadcast Christian programes in Arabic all over the M/E. He was responsible for the conversion of many muslims..He is a lovely honourable, extremely brave man..I had not read about him in recent times but he has been in Aussie and then gone to America. He would have had to flee all the threats in Egypt. He always told the truth re islam so naturally he had a fatwa on him probaby for the past two decades. Don’t believe the trash written about him in papers like the LA Times ..it is garbage..He must be quite elderly by now.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  75. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    Here is a page that makes sobering reading –
    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/racist-discriminatory-un-consulting-group-wants-dantes-inferno-out-of-the-classroom/

    “Gherush92, a human rights organization that consults for UN bodies on racism and discrimination, is calling for Dante’s “Divine Comedy” to be removed from schools and acknowledged as racist, homophobic, Islamophobic, and anti-Semitic.

    According to Valentina Sereni, the group’s president, the 14th-century work is “offensive and discriminatory” and has no place in the classroom.”

    See what I mean?
    Freedom of speech and **culture** being eroded – bit by bit.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  76. berend (1,600 comments) says:

    Fletch: berend … what a load of bollocks.

    So holy father is not a title of the pope then?

    And there are no indulgences?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  77. kowtow (6,690 comments) says:

    berend ,you’re showing your bare end.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  78. RightNow (6,337 comments) says:

    I don’t like any extremists , but to be perfectly fair all the muslims I know (maybe 20 I can think of I have regular contact with in day to day life) I have no problem with. I respect their right to freedom of religion, and none of them have ever been anything but friendly. The problem is extremists – any sort.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  79. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    My NZ?
    http://youth.shakti.org.nz/

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  80. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    The problem is politicians using vulnerable or unstable people to do their dirty work and tighten their grip on power. Just like the iwi do.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  81. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Kevin,
    Are white people ”ethnic” or does ethnic mean , recent non white migrant living in Auckland? So much money going into all these programes.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  82. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Yes Auckland city council pours millions into these social engineering causes, what’s left after paying all it’s staff fat salaries and paying for matchbox sized sculptures in parks.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  83. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    They are so well organised and so well funded. How can this lobby group have charities commission status. National and act, if they are anywhere right of far left (which I doubt) just beg for defeat.
    http://www.humanrights.net.nz/

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  84. Zapper (843 comments) says:

    Some guy on the train here in Melbourne tonight told me all Kiwis are violent! I smashed his face in to show him he was wrong.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  85. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    It’s a growth industry in nz bashing and raping our nice, friendly law abiding immigrants and tourists so i guess your doing your bit promoting us overseas. http://newzeelend.wordpress.com/

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  86. Rufus (606 comments) says:

    And DPF swallows the line that the violence was in response to some insignificant movie made by an nobody.

    1. The movie’s been up for months.

    2. The State Department were warned some 48hrs in advance that something was kicking off. They (seemingly) did nothing.

    3. The attacks in Benghazi were well-planned assaults using a wide range of weaponry – nothing spontaneous about that.

    But hey, believe what they want you to believe if that’s easier for you.

    Always easier to blame it all on some nobody than analyse the US’ mishandling of the Arab Spring. Or the clusterf*ck that is US Middle East policy in general.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  87. Manolo (12,622 comments) says:

    DPF is parroting the State Department and Obama’s administration line: the movie is responsible. Utter crap.

    The violent criminals and terrorists planned the attacks, while the clerics are guilty as sin of dousing the flames.

    Islam is the vilest of all religions. It belongs to the Dark Ages, despite any defense by its lame apologists.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  88. Bogusnews (425 comments) says:

    When I was a kid, my mother (staunchly catholic) used to fret about woman’s liberation, but not for the reason you might expect. She used to tell me it was a Biblical principle that when you demand your rights you always end up losing them in the long run.

    According to statistics, over 30% of NZ girls under the age of 30 will never have children. Most of the European countries are at “lowest low” fertility (1.3 children per couple) which means the euro population is halving every generation. However, the Muslims are not controlled by womans liberation and are having heaps of kids. In Spain, 10 years ago there was 50,000 Muslims, there are now over 1,000,000. The most popular name for a boy throughout Europe is now Mohammed (although mysteriously the name went from number 1 to not even being listed the next year. Hmmmm.)

    If they continue having children, and we don’t, they will soon out populate us and by simple democratic process, will vote in a Sharia government. Ghaddafi was boasting before he died that the Muslims were well on the way to conquering Europe without firing a single shot.

    The end result? Out of 49 Muslim countries, only 3 are listed as being free with any sort of democracy that we would recognise. Less than half the countries let girls be taught to read after the age of 8.

    So we introduce laws to give woman greater freedom, and they end up bringing woman into the most terrible slavery. Makes me wonder if we haven’t forgotten some of the Biblical principles a little too soon.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  89. Twinkletoes (49 comments) says:

    And now we are beginning to understand why this has all happened – the Libyans saying that it was foreign fighters who killed the American Ambassador, they believe they were Egyptians. The assault on the embassy in Cairo which purposely did not kill any Americans but did a great deal of damage . They dare not kill anyone as Obama has just forgiven them their billion dollar debt and promised he would not renege on his promise of future AID. So Morsi used Libya.

    Morsi engineered all this because he had told the Egyptians that he would free the “blind Sheik” if he was elected (the Sheik who master minded the 93 bombing of the WTC) – there was an interview with the Sheik’s son, accompanied by the brother of Zawahari (of AQ fame) on CNN. I saw it somewhere but cannot remember where.

    Obama is now in talks with Morsi about releasing the blind Sheik due to his “age and fragile condition”! There is a method in the madness of the muslims. He and Clinton have apparently also signed up to the UN clauses 16 and 27 which will criminalise criticism of Islam in non muslim countries – this has been an ongoing project by the OIC who constitute 57 countries at the the UN.

    As Mohamed said “there will be no peace in the world until everyone has submiited to Allah and live by his law alone”. And if some people do not understand that this is what muslims world wide totally believe and are working towards then they are living in lala land. The muslims fully understand what their duty to their prophet is.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  90. wtfunz (133 comments) says:

    Rufus, My understanding of US middle eastern policy is that they want the people there to enjoy freedom of choice. I.e. who to worship, voting, education, life style, clothing. Where applicable, they also want to buy their oil. They are not conquering these countries. What do you understand the US policy to be? The Taliban, Hizbolah, al -Qaeda and any other Islamic extremist group you choose to name use fear and intimidation to “convert” people to their religion and poor uneducated people quickly learn to adapt or die.The Taliban murdered 12 people recently, including 2 women, for having a mixed party and dancing for christ sake! How do you halt that in countries like the middle east?
    Have you ever read “Charlie Wilsons War”. 10 times better at painting the true picture than the movie. I suggest a read.

    Finally I urge you to review this video :-
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0hKEd6rzbeg
    I was sent this in May this year with the caption – England today, Australia and New Zealand tomorrow! Obviously the title needs to change.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  91. Paulus (2,295 comments) says:

    Hone Harawhatsit belives that fatwa means “fat white arse” so !!!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  92. kowtow (6,690 comments) says:

    Ironic indeed.

    In today’s ODT the twit Gwynne Dyer says ……”Some Christian extremists set out to provoke Muslim extremists into violence that would discredit Islam in the eyes of the West……”

    Murdering an ambassador is extremist,making truthful movies isn’t.
    How does Dyer know what the movie makers intent was? He assumes it in order to advance his poor case.
    I have a view that many other events in the Islamic world have already discredited it,how much more convincing do we need?

    Joint patrols ended in Afghanistan,due to increased casualties at the hands of “allies”, nuf said.
    On that subject, we are in addition to the usual Islamic outrage, seeing the result of the announced withdrawal ,the killers are rats fleeing a sinking ship and establishing a creditablity with the new Islamic masters of the soon to be Taliban run Afghanistan

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  93. Mark (496 comments) says:

    The Middle East is still tribal, if you dont come from the right tribe even if you are a Muslim you can still be killed by another Muslim.

    Look at Syria, it Muslims killing Muslims.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  94. Dave Mann (1,126 comments) says:

    Dr Zain Ali came to New Zealand, why cant he just adopt our systems, why does he advocate sharia ?

    Thank you bereal for pointing this out. I followed him up on Google and yes, this guy does seem to be an advocate for Sharia in our country! In fact, he seems to be a fanatic in his own way who’s whole life is bound up with this stupid mindfuck of a religion.

    This changes my view of the man entirely and it seems that the time honoured practice of Taqiyya is alive and well. Had me fooled, I have to admit. He came across in the article completely differently.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  95. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    As I have commented on elsewhere – there is a ***glaring hypocrisy*** and ***double-standard*** in the Islamic world.

    Read almost **any** newspaper in the Islamic world (particularly in Egypt) and you are almost **guaranteed** to see ***virulently anti-Semitic*** cartoons of Jews.

    What’s more, this happens EVERY DAY.

    Oh well – no-one every accused Muslims of being consistent or sensible…..

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  96. kowtow (6,690 comments) says:

    Freedom of expression is in grave danger.

    I’d expect the newly “democratic”Egypt to react unfavourably.
    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/09/201291820153262484.html

    But now the Germans are getting flighty.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/germany-debates-ban-on-showing-innocence-of-muslims-by-pro-deutschland-a-856490.html

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  97. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    Gawd…… bunch of German ***COWARDS!***
    This is EXACTLY the time that (having well and truly exposed a weak spot of Islam), you ***ram the sword home!***

    Anyway – I am ***certain*** that people from some other countries will follow the lead of the movie-maker and do more ***much-deserved*** ridiculing of Mo and his hangers-on. I have already suggested a Kiwi piss-take of Mo, starring Cliff Curtis (he is apparently Hollywood’s “default Arab” – the go-to guy whenever they want someone who looks “Arab”).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  98. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    I have emailed Der Spiegel and have ***very strongly*** put my view that the movie should be shown.
    ***ENOUGH of Europe cowing and caving-in to Islam!***

    Islam is a thuggish ideology of BULLYING, and bullies need to be STOOD UP TO. As soon as you do that (and make it BLOODY CLEAR to them that THIS IS IT – they will do one of two things –
    a) They will back down.
    b) They will “get it on”, so ***WE GET IT ON A HUNDRED TIMES MORE.***

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  99. Dave Mann (1,126 comments) says:

    I am ***practicing *** writing LIKE THIS to see if I can email get stronger ***emphasis *** by using more creative punctuation. Do you think the stars of THE CAPITALS are more effective? Or maybe ***BOTH TOGETHER *** is the way to go…. how about if I use some some ¤} ¥>€[? Would that be too much?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  100. my 2 cents (1,091 comments) says:

    taqiyya

    DPF has fallen for it hook line and sinker.

    There is no moderate islam.
    If DPF had read the koran through cover to cover and the sira about Muhammad’s life, he would know that.
    Instead he pontificates from ignorance.

    so called moderate muslims in NZ are merely keeping their heads down as they are in the minority.
    read the book, then you will know why sharia is like it is, and what the heart of islam is.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  101. Dave Mann (1,126 comments) says:

    Here’s an interesting slant on Islam’s power. I just wrote a very critical and strongly worded comment about the Koran (and also the Bible, incidentally) and after consideration I deleted it out of concern that if there is anybody with the name Dave Mann out there, I would hate them to get bombed by some fanatic. I invented the name Dave Mann as a pseudonym, but I now realise that, unlike blerk24 or clam-tram-the-almighty, my handle might be taken as a real name.

    I find it interesting and also disturbing that I feel quite happy to criticise politicians, greenies and christians – but when it comes to Islam, I self-censor myself out of fear of violent consequences to some poor person or family who wouldn’t know what hit them, or why.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  102. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    “…lack of central authority.”
    Utter bunk. Central authority in religious dealings generally leads to a pyramidal hierarchy within the church and like secular power structures naturally involves an inherent coalescing of power in a single individual or an executive. Eventually, given time, the whole ball of wax becomes corrupt, serving primarily the interests of the ruling class. Islam, and the Catholic church, have been perfect examples of this with the pope (in Catholicism) & heads of adherent Muslim states (& Mohammed) following this template to a tee from the very beginning.

    An example of a lack of central authority NOT leading to extremism on the whole is the Protestant Christian churches. OK, there are Fred Phelp’s & Brian Tamaki’s to contend with but they are examples of following a central authority figure & tiny in the scheme of things. Devolvement of power, or the lack of an earthly authoritarian figure, is one of the cornerstones of the Christian faith…Christ is the head.

    Denominationalism, often derided by Christians as divisive to the faith, has worked marvellously to keep the pure faith alive within the Protestant movement…often to the chagrin of the secularly organised “Christian” faith.

    Overall, the Protestant Christian church has been a stunning success in keeping alive the, “faith which was once delivered unto the saints” unmatched by any other religious body.

    The Islamic “experiment”, though religious at the base adherent level, is more akin to a secular state in its governance…as evidenced by the cruelty & despotism of the larger number of Islamic states/fiefdoms throughout history. The notion of “moderate” Islam is the exception, not the rule.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote

Leave a Reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.