Stuff publishes the National Standards data

September 22nd, 2012 at 12:28 pm by David Farrar

First the criticism by the NZEI:

So, what will league tables actually tell you?  Not much.  In fact, they will be very misleading if you are using them to judge school effectiveness.

They won’t tell you the level of improvement of children at a school, nor how engaged or happy individual children are, whether the school is meeting the individual children’s needs and whether the teachers are inspiring them.

Actually they will, eventually. Sure the first year is static data, but what I will find fascinating is the change over time. As for the other , yes national standards data is only one piece of data. The answer is to supply more data, not less.

John Hartevelt who was the project manager for the project responds:

Many people told us not to publish the information you see on this site.

They fought to stop us. Some sent us bills for the privilege of their school’s data. Others buried the figures we asked for in complex matrices and pages of indecipherable bumph.

Well done on Fairfax for persevering.

Anyone who read the National Standards results as a proxy for quality would be quite foolish. We wouldn’t do that and we don’t suggest you do, either. For starters, they are not moderated, so one school’s “well below” may be another’s “at” or “above”. There is just no way of knowing – yet – exactly how the standards have been applied across schools.

But even if they were moderated, the standards alone could not tell you everything about how a school is doing by its pupils. As many of the experts we canvassed for this project have noted, quality is most evident in what a school does to push its pupils up, not in how well they do at attracting the brainiest, most-privileged kids in the first place.

Absolutely.

Our data handling processes have been checked by independent experts. Every school page includes decile, roll and funding statistics and a link to the school’s latest Education Review Office report. We have reported in detail across the country on a range of schools to help show that there is more to any of them than the numbers you see on this site. And we have commissioned a range of views on National Standards to debate the issue in their own words.

The link to the ERO reports is useful.

My old school is Island Bay School. I lived near St Francis De Sales and the local Intermediate was South Wellington.

Island Bay is decile 10 (which surprises me), St Francis decile 9 South Wellington decile 7. A comparison of the three is here. A very easy to comprehend format.

Tags: ,

43 Responses to “Stuff publishes the National Standards data”

  1. Keeping Stock (10,341 comments) says:

    Island Bay = Perry Rush (one of the most active and stringent critics of National Standards); correct?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. hmmokrightitis (1,590 comments) says:

    Correct KS. Self same hypocrite. Ah, just think what would happen if the truth surrounding this lovely gentleman got out into the public domain. I have no time for him at all, he is everything that sums up socialists to me. Nuff said.

    The Mrs and I just went through the stats. She started a rabid anti NS poster girl. Mind changed. And I talked about what the power of these was especially when we have trend in a couple of years. Powerful stuff. A convert based on this. Awesome :)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. Keeping Stock (10,341 comments) says:

    Quite so hmmo. I believe that Whaleoil has posted about him with sufficient frequency for those who don’t know the bloke to form an opinion.

    These are baseline reports. The proof will be the trends over time. They certainly don’t seem to be something worth dying in a ditch over, which perhaps explains David Shearer’s pragmatic approach to them.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. Reid (16,464 comments) says:

    You won’t get much of a trend. Instant ditch when Liarbore gets in, parent’s opinions notwithstanding. Even Shearer won’t be able to stop it. Sure, he could stand up to Al Qa-ida while at the UN but no way can he withstand the mentalism of the NZEI Liarbore Branch. You wait.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. hmmokrightitis (1,590 comments) says:

    The gentleman in question has a fact that 3 people know. Him, me and one other. And the whole righteous facade would come crumbling down. Hence why he sticks doing what he is doing. The golden boy that he is. I piss on his rotting morals. Perfect socialist. Beneath contempt.

    Enough short sentences :)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. BlueGriffon (204 comments) says:

    Dim Post is crowing about the decile 10 schools performance being higher but fails to mention that these schools get LESS funding, some by 3000 per student.
    What are these low decile schools doing with the extra funding? Surely this extra money should be going towards remedial classes? The results show it is not.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. tom hunter (4,843 comments) says:

    Dim Post is crowing about the decile 10 schools performance …

    Yes, I saw that too, but my first question was whether being able to crow meant that Dim was – like hmmokrightitis’s wife – a convert to the idea of National Standards?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    The national standards system is bs bureacracy that takes teachers away from teaching, but makes it look like national is doing something.mIf you have a crap education system, one of the most inefficient, and so you set a really low bar and 70% pass does it,really make you feel good. Kids come here from Sri,Lanka,and korea and are several years ahead in Maths.

    In the low decile schools the teachers are too busy mopping up societys problems, helping 14 year olds get with their abortions nd relationship bust ups to teach them anything.

    And could hekia do something about Auckland truant officers taking the truants out for cups of coffee please?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Dim Post is crowing about the decile 10 schools performance being higher…

    I see the concept of satire remains as lost on right-wingers as it ever was.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. Griff (7,717 comments) says:

    crazy fish cum
    you still here dont you have a pile of commie propaganda to read or something

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    Instead of wailing and moaning about how useless the publsihed figures are, I now expect those principals and teachers to start explaining why they have children ‘below’ and ‘way below’ the expected levels. Sure this first year are just statistics but next year and the year after we will surely start to see the averages rising if teachers are doing what they are paid to do.

    If not, then they will have to be TOLD to concentrate on getting the standards up. Forget school trips and cultural experiences and all that sort of stuff untill they averages start to rise.

    Its si9mply no good those halfwit principals saying that the figures are too hard for us all to comprehend and they have to start realising that these figures say that there are a lot of children who cannot red, write or add simple sums and that they have to address that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    When is it going to become common knowledge that school teachers have about a two percent effect on the lives of kids.

    There are some very good teachers but like any professions the majority are middling and some are dangerous.

    School teachers are just not that important , in fact the majority should be told to fuck off you are doing more harm than good to young minds.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. freemark (580 comments) says:

    My kids go to a decile 5 School, which as a rough guide should put the School around the National Standard taking things into account. On most of the measures the School is a few percent higher, on a couple of measures up to 13% higher, on a couple 9% lower. Excellent to know, even on this first draft limited information. I will be supporting the School, teachers, parents & Paula Bennett with measures to lift the outcomes in areas below the Standard, I will be congratulating same parties in areas where they are above. The sky didn’t fall down, we have the start of useful information enabling us to lift the educational level of our society. Move along.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Read my lips, many of the children are Unteachable. They reflect societys problems. Single welfare, booze, drug and gambling addicted parent with no education, 3rd generation unemployed, given a state house and accomodation supplement courtesy of you the taxpayer.

    Some are told by media, society and filthy politicians that they both belong to a “special race” and they are deprived for belonging to it. By age 13 their biggest concern is their cellphone, Facebook page and whether they will get a shag tonight. By 14 they have have bigger concerns like their upcoming 2nd abortion or their appearance in court. They threaten and bully teachers.

    The fetal alcohol syndrome kids are the lucky ones becuase they get individual teachers assigned to them while your kids who you bring up properly and will have to earn and pay taxes get the fewest resources put into them.

    This is the system teachers are dealing with on a daily basis. And you expect teachers to fix it and “improve for next time”.

    The teachers work,hard and and hate the situation. Have some compassion for teachers or at least get a life and take the blinkers off.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. Harriet (4,972 comments) says:

    Psycho Mutt#

    “……I see the concept of satire remains as lost on right-wingers as it ever was….”

    No it’s not.

    The Pretorian Guard of disciplinarian standards in schools – Lying cunts from Labour’s Teachers Union – have all climbed the ladder of success steming from what were much higher standards of discipline when they were in schools – and then lifted that ladder up along with them.

    In doing so they have denied a generation or 2 from ‘developing to their fullest’ at public schools where ‘poor personal standards’ has now become ‘tolerable’ due to cultural and moral relativity – a non-standard.A construct.

    The irony is that these ‘ideal products’ of Labour then go onto vote for Labour’s unwinning policies on education at the last couple of elections – in the mistaken belief that their own kids will benefit from them- never mind the obvious fact that the parents own lives are hopelessly lacking in motivation, ambition, self assesment, honesty, perseverance and mental agility.

    But they’re loyal.

    True dumbfucks. :cool:

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. Harriet (4,972 comments) says:

    PaulEastBay#

    “….When is it going to become common knowledge that school teachers have about a two percent effect on the lives of kids…”

    And it’s generally teachers who are teachers of the subjects that individual kids are interested in.

    As a teacher here in Australia once told me “kids in private schools for the most part teach themselves because their parents install discipline into them.” She had taught in both.

    As I alluded to in my previous comment ‘It’s the disciplinarian standard that matters most’.

    DPF never puts that data up.Or even mentions it.Undisciplined.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. greenjacket (466 comments) says:

    For the past year we have been receiving propaganda from my kids’ school newsletter saying that national standards will be the end of the world. Now we see the data (good on DomPost for this work) – my wife and I have spent an hour going through it, and we have found it very useful and have some questions next time we see the kids’ teachers. And the principal looks like an unprofessional prat. NZEI have succeeded in making themselves look like unprofessional idiots who have nothing buy contempt for parents.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. Reid (16,464 comments) says:

    Read my lips, many of the children are Unteachable.

    What sort of numbers are we talking Kev? Approx % – I know you’re guessing but what’s your educated guess here?

    Secondly, are there any programs national or local, in place or embyonic, to address this issue? If not, what’s your opinion as to why not? If so, how do they work and do they produce results?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Good post by harriet 4.45. But National is way left of centre and the right has imploded since mmp so nz is condemned to fall off the bottom rung of the OECD.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. Reid (16,464 comments) says:

    This is slightly off topic but more aposite than posting it on GD: parents and teachers with kids who use computers in the classroom, take note:

    http://www.worldcrunch.com/tech-science/does-the-internet-make-you-dumb-top-german-neuroscientist-says-yes-and-forever/digital-dementia-manfred-spitzer-neuropsychiatry/c4s9550/#.UF1HI40gdEA

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. Rightandleft (663 comments) says:

    Here is the problem with the publishing of the National Standards, the media is already using the stats to make sweeping judgements about the state of education in NZ. There is an article in the Herald blaming texting and slang for the ‘fact’ that one-third of primary schoolers are below the National Standard for writing. No mention until halfway through the article of the fact that these standards are not moderated and every school can interpret them differently. The numbers mean nothing when used in the context the Herald is using them in. Yet now parents will be reading this article and becoming deeply concerned about a problem that may not even exist.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    From what I’ve seen about 20%, but the number can be very high in some,schools,and low in others. There are many programs such as lower class sizes for the problem children, Maori mentors, parent tutoring, psychological councilling and taking the kids out of school and teaching them through travelling teachers from the health schools for sick children.

    But they are very expensive for the taxpayer and do not reach anywhere near the number needed.

    The main problem is discipline that flows through from the feral society, so schools cannot address it all. A holistic approach is needed covering many agencies perhaps along the lines of the Maori program.

    But it has to be efficient so that the most people get the most benefit. There are way too many trough feeders at present and many schools have very poor fiscal control and far too,many non teaching staff.

    The only way this will happen is for the major centre left parties, including national to stop fighting and pull together.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. Harriet (4,972 comments) says:

    Kevin#

    Roger Douglas was right about the ‘voucher’ system. It gives parents ownership and pride in deciding where, why & what school their children should attend.

    If some ‘poor’ parents were to realize that all the GST etc that they have paid in the last year totaled about $10,000.00 and were then given a voucher/cheque for about $10k and were then to decide how to spend that on their childrens education – the ‘outcomes’ would be significant.

    The government would still be ‘funding’ schools albeit indirectly, and it would still be in charge of the curriculum, but the government would not be ‘delivering’ education.And that is what the public service and teachers are useless at.Private schools always do better.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. MH (757 comments) says:

    simply put,too many sheilas teaching,and the sue Bradford method of Discipline,not that whacking is always the answer but it sure gets the business over quicker and resentment lessens rather than prolonged detention which in turn leads to truancy and then expulsion and then social services. A good male teacher can be a surrogate father for some of these poor bastards. Discipline creates a learning environment even overcoming the effect of low docile parenting.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Yes agreed to a certain extent. But that was then and this is now. We are 20 years down the wrong track of high user pays and high taxes. We are about as bankrupt as we were under Muldoon think as to the 90s nats and naughties labour.

    Also, the student loan scam has been an utter disaster for tertiary education and the put the money in the hands of the users but has been so scammed by the lefties that I’m distrusting of those neolib solutions now.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    “low docile parenting” :)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Bugger iPad “thanks to the 90s nats”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. Harriet (4,972 comments) says:

    Kevin#

    ‘…Also, the student loan scam has been an utter disaster for tertiary education and the put the money in the hands of the users but has been so scammed by the lefties that I’m distrusting of those neolib solutions now….”

    Actually you made a valid point – Lefties can’t spend their own money wisely. The scams have all involved the arts students – teaching etc.

    Here in Australia, the uni’s let in ‘all and sundry’ into over priced teaching ‘degrees’ and then put all the cash into medicine, law and science faculties etc to the advantage of other students. Meanwhile the teaching ‘classes’ were all over weight with students and underfunded with resources.

    But that’s the left – not the Neolibs.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Yes true there is that. But the massive problem is along with the student loans comes “targeted assistance”. So while A plus students of hardworking taxpayers have to take out massive loans, illiterate long term unemployed, solo parents, and assorted no hopers get paid to go to university along with other affirmative action bs plans. Then everyone wonders why our best and brightest bugger off with their fingers raised never to return.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Harriet (490) Says:

    September 22nd, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    As I alluded to in my previous comment ‘It’s the disciplinarian standard that matters most’..

    Couldn’t agree more

    Most humans are in the average IQ area ,(then there are the really bright and those of limited intelligence, there has always been these groups)

    I would wager the those that finish school in the middle area of IQ can read and write and communicate to a degree that allows them to function and lead a full life.

    Where the system fails is that many of this group are so busy telling all and sundry to” fuck off I know my rights “( an attitude fostered in many homes) they are turning out to be horrible human beings, just arseholes.

    They leave school and mummy in this state and take it into the work place where they have no manners and a sense of entitlement that makes the average school teacher look like a Buddist monk.

    Thats the problem we have we have a generation of horrible human beings rather than a generation of under achieving kids.

    And as we know horrible human beings with a sense of entitlement gravitate towards politics , more particuarly left wing politics.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. Johnboy (16,554 comments) says:

    We never had National Standards at good old Scots.

    We just had FUCKING STANDARDS! :) :)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. Mark (1,488 comments) says:

    there seems to be some misguided view here that every schools assessments are based on the same set of criteria and you are comparing apples and apples. That is the stupidity of this whole farce, crap data produces pointless outputs.

    There are some who would have us believe that this will correct over time and we will see trends. Over time if they do not fix the validity of the data the results will be meaningless.

    National are fixated on league tables.

    “Parata promised last month that national standards data would be published on the educationcounts.govt.nz website in the format that schools’ submitted it.

    But now she acknowledges school complaints that the ministry has forced them to fiddle their data to fit into the tables the ministry requires.

    She rejected any suggestion, though, that the ministry was formatting the data to enable league tables: “I’m not publishing a league table, I’m publishing public achievement information.” NZ Herald

    Now if you believe Parata on this you believe in the fucking tooth fairy.

    So if National is hell bent of league tables and clearly league tables are a high priority in its primary education policy then the data has to be secure to be fair to schools.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. Pete George (23,564 comments) says:

    The Herald stirs up the class size debate:

    National Standards shock: Big classes work

    Primary schools have disclosed controversial data about pupil achievement, with the surprise revelation that children in bigger classes and bigger schools get better grades.

    The Herald on Sunday has conducted a comprehensive survey of schools’ national standards results, before the Ministry of Education publishes them this week.

    At schools with fewer pupils for each teacher, around 70 per cent of children are achieving national standards in reading, writing and arithmetic. But at schools with more pupils for each teacher – in effect, bigger classes – the pass rates rise to about 80 per cent.

    So too with school rolls: the highest proportions of children achieving or exceeding national standards are at big schools.

    But but but…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. Reid (16,464 comments) says:

    But now she acknowledges school complaints that the ministry has forced them to fiddle their data to fit into the tables the ministry requires.

    Yes Mark. Note the use of the word “forced” as in, because the schools deliberately obfuscated, the ministry had no choice but to…

    A bit like a little child who refuses to action a reasonable request from their parents simply because they’re in a bad mood.

    The position you fanatical lefties are taking over this reminds me of the 911 debates, whereby someone makes a reasonable point about it and the braying idiot brigade don’t listen to that point but instead munt on about something completely different, conflating what the person actually said with what they thought that person must think were they to think like that, and in the process, getting it wrong because they have no idea what that person actually does think. And that happens around 90% of the time. And you just did the same thing, with your assumption you know why they’re coming in.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. lcmortensen (38 comments) says:

    The could have at least standardised the data by student gender and ethnicity, to put all schools on a level playing field.

    For example, if in two different schools all the girls pass but only half the boys do, but one school has a higher proportion of girls on its roll, they will appear more successful than the other school. If you standardise, then both schools will appear the same.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. artemisia (242 comments) says:

    lcmortensen – reporting is a work in progress, and will no doubt improve over time. A bit tough to criticise at this early stage. However feedback is welcomed, apparently, so no reason you can’t offer your idea. Feedback should mean that structure of NS and data quality will improve over time. As DPF has said more than once, the answer to poor data is better data, not no data.

    Must say, reporting by ethnicity is surely problematic. Is, say, a child classified as PI if born in NZ to one PI parent and one non-PI parent? Or not? I wonder what the guidelines are for recording ethnicity in schools.

    And if [some] teachers had been more focussed on better NS data rather than on opposition to everything NS, the data may have been better.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. MH (757 comments) says:

    And it would be interesting to know the gender of and %age thereof of the schools staff. Even if the teachers were to divulge their ethnicity,it would all help. We all know what the results will be…merely reinforce our own prejudicies and generalisations,lies damn lies and stats. A cheap promotion for Excel computer skills.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    If you look at Island Bay with socialist Rush as a principal it appears that one conclusion that could be drawn is that Island Bay is fudging results to say more of their kids are above Standard. however another conclusion is that they could be absofuckinlutley wonderful at teaching the well heeled liberals’ kids to read.
    I’m assuming that de Salle and IB are both big feeders to the Intermediate, in which Rush could well be right. The Intermediate above standard on reading comes close to the average of DS and IB. So IB’s claims are not out of the ballpark. Me, I’m inclined to think that on the face of it that IB is the school with a higher decile, so I’d be inclined to park my kids in IB rather than with the poor and junkies kids at DS. Which makes Standards as useful as Decile ratings.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    The only guidelines,for determining ethnicity is self identification. It’s a scam.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. artemisia (242 comments) says:

    I was talking recently to a parent with kids at Island Bay school. Completely for Perry Rush and his views. However, we didn’t get far into a conversation before I realised she had no idea what she was talking about, just parroting PR with virtually no substance at all. Sad.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. mpledger (425 comments) says:

    Anyone who reads the National Standards results and takes them as a proxy for quality would be quite foolish. They are not moderated, so one school’s “well below” may be another’s “at” or “above”. There is just no way of knowing exactly how the standards have been applied across schools.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. mpledger (425 comments) says:

    Reid (11,689) Says:
    Someone said:
    But now she acknowledges school complaints that the ministry has forced them to fiddle their data to fit into the tables the ministry requires.
    ~~~~

    Yes Mark. Note the use of the word “forced” as in, because the schools deliberately obfuscated, the ministry had no choice but to…

    A bit like a little child who refuses to action a reasonable request from their parents simply because they’re in a bad mood.
    ~~~~

    That’s because all the school were required to do was submit the data in their school report. There was no indication that it was going to be used for anything else. The MoE should have specified reporting guidelines if it wanted the data in a set format.

    Schools should be upset by this kind of botch-up. Double handling of the data is very inefficient and takes time away from doing teaching.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. mpledger (425 comments) says:

    I don’t have a child at Island Bay school but I am often there and get to see what the kids hang on the wall, read the notices to parents, see the sign-up sheets for parents and the fund-raising results.

    In my opinion (as a parent of a similar age child) it’s a great school. The kids are doing some great work which is displayed on the walls, the work is changed often and they’ve covered lots of interesting topics. The parents are involved with the school and the parent sign-up sheets (that I saw) are full and they have amazingly profitable parent-led fundraising activities.

    You may be all here denigrating Perry Rush but from what I can see it’s a fantastic school and that comes down to leadership.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote