The split in Tainui

September 25th, 2012 at 3:00 pm by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

Meetings between two heavyweight leaders are under way to iron out internal tribal confusion around water ownership issues.

’s spokesman is emphatic that all iwi leaders must stick to resolutions passed at the King’s water summit, which include working out a framework for water rights before iwi negotiate with the Crown.

Immediately after the hui this month, Mr Morgan said: “The A list of Maoridom were here, the who’s who of Maoridom were here – they are part of the decision and they are bound by the decision.”

But Tom Roa, who is chairman of the tribe’s executive board Te Arataura and on the Iwi Leaders Group for Freshwater, says the King’s “strong” position on water – that Maori own it – also reflected respect towards the individual right of iwi to go back to their people to weigh the resolutions.

“From my perspective … every iwi and every hapu has their right to their autonomy and that includes Waikato-Tainui.

“The New Zealand Maori Council will not negotiate on Waikato-Tainui’s behalf. Nor will any group. That’s our plain position and I suggest that’s the position of every iwi and hapu in the country.”

It is not unusual to have a different point of view between different Iwi. But this is a split between Tainui and their King. That is significant.

Line the two positions up and Mr Roa admits the sentiments are at odds.

“Yes. We’re having meetings to sort that through. Tuku is the spokesperson for the Kingitanga and I am the spokesperson for Waikato-Tainui,” he said.

Asked if there should be a unified position between the two, Mr Roa said: “Very clearly.”

Which is an admission, there isn’t.

What is not in doubt is that there has been a sharp evolution of the Kingitanga. In the past, spokesmen have been the voice of the movement – in part to protect the monarch from direct criticism.

King Tuheitia’s speech to 1000 Maori on such a charged issue changed that.

“In terms of Waikato-Tainui I would suggest that whatever the King says, whatever the King does, the people support,” Mr Roa said. “There is some concern for him, there is some concern for our relationships [in the tribe] and with other iwi and hapu but there is total support for the King.”

The Labour MP for Hauraki-Waikato, , the King’s cousin, said the move came with risks as exposure to criticism would come on any issues in the public domain.

“That is a matter for Tuheitia to weigh up as the media can be critical and sceptical of any perspective he may have. Tuheitia has his advisers and they must be accountable for the advice they give him.”

While expressed very politely, that statement by Nanaia is significant. She seems to be blaming Tuku Morgan for turning King Tuheitia into a political figure, rather than a unifying figure.

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51 Responses to “The split in Tainui”

  1. lastmanstanding (1,154 comments) says:

    The best way to beat the Horis is divide and rule. Make sure they are arguing amongst themselves. Then those of us who are living in the 21st Century instead of the Horis who are living in the 19th Century can get on with our lives and the really important issues like the economy jobs growth you know the stuff that matters to ALL Kiwis rather than the grab all Horis.

    [DPF: Do not use the term Horis]

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  2. Manolo (12,618 comments) says:

    If Tuku Morgan is Tanui “leader”, I’m Napoleon and Julius Caesar rolled into one. The man with a weakness for expensive underwear is a cruel joke without leadership abilities.

    With him at the helm iwi members are absolutely fucked.

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  3. lastmanstanding (1,154 comments) says:

    I see Bob Jones has done his usual pull no punches number of the faux Maori King and Underpants Morgan as he calls him. Time to pull up the draw bridge on the Horis.

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  4. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    As Bob Jones points out – this so called king is nothing but an idiot – and with Unerpants along side – well anything can happen.

    I once knew a couple of company managers who used to rely on each other when in meetings. They were sort of a pathetic sort of act. We gave them the nick name of “Fuckwit and his interpreter”. It fits well with king and Tuku……

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  5. beautox (406 comments) says:

    They wouldn’t be heavyweights if they didn’t stuff their faces with so much KFC

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  6. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,667 comments) says:

    beautox

    It wasn’t KFC. It was Burger King.

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  7. tvb (3,938 comments) says:

    The King has taken an extremist position when he boldly asserted Maori awned all the water. At the end of the day the King represents very little and by taking controversial positions he will narrow his focus still further. If he strives for consensus amongst all Maori he could enhance his position but by staking out the position he has, greatly undermines his authority. I do not think he is all that bright. But they are stuck with him.

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  8. David Garrett (5,120 comments) says:

    DPF: Leaving aside that many older maori I know still refer to themselves as “horis” – as the younger ones with their caps on sideways are self described “niggers” – I assume you have instructed your regular correspondent “grumpyoldhori” to change his nick?

    If not, why not? (As they said in parliament…)

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  9. mara (639 comments) says:

    Partly off-topic perhaps but …… When Islam takes cultural control in NZ, I wonder how many Kiwis will give a rat’s arse about king whatshisname’s toothless flock and suddenly realise, too late, that they should have been paying more attention to the wolf than the uppity sheep?

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  10. Alan Johnstone (908 comments) says:

    Easy to use offensive terms when hiding behind a screen name

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  11. rakuraku (162 comments) says:

    DG Hori’s, nigger’s, black’s who gives a rats arse we are all New Zealanders, just the raving right physcos who don’t understand NZ history and want to rack up the anti Maori sentiment, rabid press 95% of maoris are just normal New Zealanders.

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  12. annie (533 comments) says:

    The King has been making a lot of noise, but let’s face it he’s King of Tainui alone, at best, and not as relevant as the media seem to imagine.

    The other iwi have always gone their own way and always will.

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  13. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    @rakuraku
    We are all New Zealanders so you will be signing this then
    http://www.nzcpr.com/petition_EqualRights.php
    Number of people who have signed: 26579
    We, New Zealanders, having founded our society in the equality of comradeship, and living here at home in the land we have made, utterly oppose any laws which establish or promote racial distinction or division.

    There shall be one law for all:

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  14. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    “95% of maoris are just normal New Zealanders.” And the other 5% have run off with one trillion doallrs of our (and their) assets and shameless exploit them by calling them no good, in order to get more. Its call the New Zealand poverty cycle.

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  15. David Garrett (5,120 comments) says:

    rakuraku: I applaud your “we are all New Zealanders” sentiment…but I’m afraid the “psychos” who are ignorant of New Zealand history are of all colours…for example according to Mutu and Hone the Racist, the musket wars which raged for 30 years prior to 1840 were just minor skirmishes (they actually killed about 60% of the then Maori population); Britain forced the maori at the point of a gun to sign the treaty (Europeans were outnumbered about 30-1 at the time, and there were only a few British marines here, no soldiers); and the “full and final” settlements of the 1940′s were all signed up with the wrong people for the then equivalent of a few blankets and a couple of pounds of tobacco (in fact the government agreed to pay the then value of a dairy farm to Tainui “each and every year in perpetuity” from 1946 in compensation for past wrongs)..

    but that said, I agree that 95% of maori are, as you say, just ordinary New Zealanders…it’s just a pity more of them don’t say so…loudly…

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  16. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    David, really 60% sounds over the top. wikipedia says 18.5% and certainly disease introduced by Europeans killed far more maori than muskets or any other weapon. Thats not our fault (current living New Zealanders) and we certainly should not have to pay compensation for it, so exagerating figures serves no purpose. Facts are much more interesting.

    NRC No racist constitution.
    http://www.nzcpr.com/petition_EqualRights.php

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  17. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    certainly disease introduced by Europeans killed far more maori
    wrong pre 1840 the effect of disease was minor compared to the killing by warfare one battle killed more than in the whole of the so called land wars
    The head trade exported around 1000 cured heads that is 1% of the population pre contact were killed for the souvenir trade better than plastic tikis eh
    Read Kings history of new Zealand he gives the figure as at least 20,000 and possibly many more
    There is a little bit of a battle going on in wiki at the moment the moari story changes almost daily between revisionist and real history :lol:

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  18. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    I must be a bloody racist. I’ve never eaten a Murri only a Blonde. :)

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  19. David Garrett (5,120 comments) says:

    Kevin: Wikipedia! that impeccable source! I suggest you read Crosby’s “The Musket Wars” – which I have just ploughed through; it is not an easy read – which is widely regarded as the authoritative source…estimates range from 20,000 (Michael King) to 60,000…even at the low end, about 10% of the Maori deaths in what are now called “the New Zealand Wars”…

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  20. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between if it can ever be found but 60% is very hard to believe so I am sceptical of that “authority”.

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  21. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    Anyone have an idea of the nutritional value of a Maori corpse compared to say a Double Whopper with Cheese?

    Seeing as civilisation is being blamed for ethnic obesity and all. :)

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  22. David Garrett (5,120 comments) says:

    Well perhaps you should read it Kevin…and the footnotes…those are the things with numbers next to them at the bottom of the page…

    But your comment reminds me of something I read 20 odd years ago, when the treaty industry first took off…some prominent Maori was saying “That’s the good thing about the pakeha..they always wrote things down..”
    now of course, “oral history” from some befuddled kaumatua is much more persuasive than silly old government records…

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  23. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    Don’t forget they had to carry the corpse back to the umu has they had no drive in due to not inventing the wheel and all. :)

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  24. thedavincimode (6,103 comments) says:

    It would seem that after Tainui gave him the arse and being confronted with the choice of going back to being TV One’s fire reporter or sticking his head up Tuheitia’s arse, Tuku chose the latter. I expect his re-emergence via Tuheitia’s intestinal tract and oesophagus has come as a disapointment to those influential in removing his pudgey little fingers from the steering oar of Tainui’s waka.

    What will he do when they finish the job? He seems to be a somewhat unpleasant and overly opportunistic individual and so seems eminently suitable to the Liebour Party (the brown dumpling?) but why would they even touch him with a plastic one? And no chance at all of him sloshing about in a gummint-funded trough. He’ll have to settle for the KFC gravy now; not the fiscal variety.

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  25. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Oh I totally agree with you we have turned full circle into an orwellian culturally relativsitic post-modern black (!) hole. No doubt about it – age of endarkenment, misinformation age, lost the culture wars etc.

    For gods sake I stood outside the big I in the pouring rain with Minto and Shadbolt trying to stop the ABs going to south africa only to have sepratism and appartied brought in here.

    Now I’m a “racist” for wanting equality. Well fuckem I say bring on the tear gas. Got to say no to them one day so it may as well be now.

    Except its just an interesting academic question about the absolute numbers. Wars have generally claimed less lives than the disease and starvation that went along with them.

    But as for the footnotes I guess …if its writ it must be right :)

    Oh and by the way I will never ever forgive ACT for not withdrawing confidence and supply over the foreshore and seabed legislation.

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  26. David Garrett (5,120 comments) says:

    Kevin: sorry…that was a bit of a cheap shot re the footnotes…but my point remains: among any living serious historians, Crosby’s is regarded as the definitive work on the musket wars, and his estimates are more at the 60,000 than the 20,000 end…what IS agreed (Michael King et. al.) is that the New Zealand wars killed about 2-3000 maori…

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  27. Nostalgia-NZ (4,685 comments) says:

    We didn’t do anything wrong, we simply provided them with muskets. And once we were more established went to war with them and stole their land. Hunky dory.

    Meanwhile the King learns that his foot is indeed bigger than his mouth and that Morgan’s aspirations to realign the planets result from his drinking too much of the river.

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  28. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Yes by modern standards THEY did something wrong. WE do not owe any compensation whatsoever but WE have kindly handed over $1 trillion dallars of assets and created a landed gentry for eternity. WE’VE done enough.

    Remeber the spraying of the road with the water tanker, oh goodness me.

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  29. Nostalgia-NZ (4,685 comments) says:

    Getting a headache Kevin?

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  30. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Nostalgia-NZ\
    You taking drugs buddy
    we went to war includes maori fighting on the side of our government to stop the re kindling of the musket wars
    The maori would still have had the wars the muskets just made it easer for them to slaughter each other

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  31. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    We spent hundreds of years taking power for the people. In the last 50 years we have handed it all back to a new political elite.

    Who elected him king anyway, I didnt vote for him?

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  32. Nostalgia-NZ (4,685 comments) says:

    Obviously you don’t think there is a liability attached to making it easy for people to slaughter one another when you profit from it Griff. You need to sharpen up.

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  33. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    If there is any liability they’re all dead so how can you prosecute them?

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  34. Nostalgia-NZ (4,685 comments) says:

    He isn’t a voted King. Kevin, I think everyone knows that. Nor in fact is he a political figure.

    We prosecute them by undoing the wrongs against them, who ever ‘we’ may be we are mortgaged to the debt that comes with being in possession of misappropriated land, culture, and so the list goes on.

    Apart from that take up your other difficulties with Griff.

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  35. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Anglo-saxon guilt trip aye? Its just smoke and mirrors. A seed planted in your brain from some forgotten 60s hippy dope den source. I used to feel like that so I protested against aparthied. Over it. You will be too when your kids are poor because THEY are rich.

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  36. MH (558 comments) says:

    Crosby does say that 60,000 were dislocated and enslaved,so even with deaths being even at 20-30,000 that is a lot of unhappy people walking about. Some of the best breeding stock gone doesn’t help. The NZ online encyclopaedia had an extraordinary comment on the deaths re the Musket Wars being equivalent to over a 100,000 deaths c.f. WWI but being PC they then re-edited that figure in a new paragraph and when I complained they gave some weak excuse. The only reference to the old comment was a date of revision at the bottom of the page.I always believe that if you edit a paragraph in such a site you keep the old reference not just the date of REVISION so that it can be read.
    Enslaved usually meant death eventually. Still none dares to make a film or TV series about that or the massacres of settlers but just say Parihaka and it’s all on. And why because it would reignite old wounds-not able to be taught in schools with Maori pupils,make them all depressed or violent. “Frontier” is another good book to read on the subject.
    Anyhows the King has no clothes.

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  37. MH (558 comments) says:

    Frontier … by Peter Maxwell

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  38. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    170 years ago
    Maori wanted guns they were sold guns its called trade should we have treated them like children?They lived in a continued state of warfare there was a battle pre contact were 8000 where killed.
    It was only after the crown stepped in and provided a legal force to stop the slaughter that maori mostly stopped killing each other. A lot of the so called New Zealand wars were in effect an attempt at restarting the utu
    Who are you going to prosecute the yanks the traders I know this is hard for you to understand it was the wild west out here the gun sales were not the responsibility of the English crown until the treaty was signed
    Fucking ignorant fuckwits and their revisionist history Read up and not the belich and orange white guilt rubbish ether

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  39. Nostalgia-NZ (4,685 comments) says:

    Shouldn’t have sold ‘them’ guns Griff while building an army to take the land. You’ll get it one day.

    Take an aspro.

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  40. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Who should not have sold them guns? who was going to enforce not selling guns?
    The English crown did not sell them guns the land was taken mostly as a reprisal for continued warfare yes there was some wrong confiscation
    You obviously have no idea of the histology of New Zealand
    At the signing of the treaty how many armed maori were there and how many armed British solders ?
    try around 30 pommes and 60,000 maori
    see were your fantasy falls down
    get your head out of your arse and read some history

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  41. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    I dont know why the little fellow gets so upset – his sides won. We now live in a post modern culturally relativistic revisionist lie and its not like its going to change any time soon.

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  42. thedavincimode (6,103 comments) says:

    Muskets don’t kill people. People kill people.

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  43. Mark (1,301 comments) says:

    In listening to comments around the traps there is no appetite for granting any form of ownership of the water to Maori. But the conversation is getting louder about how the treaty settlement monies are benefiting only a very small Maori elite and there is no benefit to the Maori family living in South Auckland Porirua etc.

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  44. Nostalgia-NZ (4,685 comments) says:

    That’s the point griff while there was an imbalance of power the British bided their time. If the numbers had been reversed there would have been no treaty. You need to keep up.

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  45. lastmanstanding (1,154 comments) says:

    Mark You have hit the nail on the head. The BILLION DOLLARS is benefiting a Maori aristocracy which is worse than the Pommie aristocracy by far. A few are feeding at the trough whilst the many get nothing.
    Time to call the Maori aristocracy out.

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  46. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    There you go again with your fantasy history I suppose you think we should have left NZ to the missioners who were the main culprits in the land grasp and busy sodomising and fornicating the natives
    You do know that maori were begging the English to take control don’t you England did not want NZ read the history buddy

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  47. Nostalgia-NZ (4,685 comments) says:

    No griff the colonists didn’t want anything, they were here as tourists. You could convince yourself of anything.

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  48. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    :lol: go read some real history

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  49. wtfunz (133 comments) says:

    Mark and lastmanstanding verygood points – see below.

    Numbers for you :–
    61,000 registered tainui tribesmen. Book value of Tainui assets $700,000,000. Net Profit for the Group last year = $40,000,000.
    1. How do the tribesmen hold/ have their “shares” registered?
    2. What share of the profit do the tribesmen get each year – company dividends?
    3. How do they declare all the above to re WINZ, DPB, Invalid Benefit?

    Who is really benefiting from the assets Tainui now own careof of NZ tax payers. The $700,000,000 would be well below market value.

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  50. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    A heck of a lot more than one billion. The race relations concilliator estimated in 2008 that ONE TRILLION in cash and assets had been allocated to Waitangi claims.

    Since then just off the top of my head – devonport naval base, 9 auckland volcanic claims, ureaweras, right of purchase of any crown land in auckland for the next 150 years.

    Elizabeth rata has writen extensively on Iwi claims, their infiltration of all organisations, and their attempt to close down free speech.

    http://www.education.auckland.ac.nz/uoa/elizabeth-rata

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  51. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Bugger that link to ms Rata had an interesting essay that would have been a good weapon to bash that smart arse professor maori boy with :lol: pdf Localising Neoliberalism: Indigenist Brokerage in the New Zealand University (197 KB PDF)

    The iwi are charitable trusts they dont pay tax sucks even more…. eh….

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