Ansell on his Treatygate campaign

October 5th, 2012 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

blogs:

You’re invited to Treatygate/Colourblind State speech, Remuera Rotary Club, next Monday 8th October, 6.30pm.

If you’re in Auckland this coming Monday evening, I’ll be making my first speech about the Treatygate/Colourblind State campaign to the Remuera Rotary Club.

(At the Remuera Bowling Club, just to confuse you.)

You’re invited, and so are the media. …

Well, here’s a few things they didn’t tell you:

  • In 1840, those old chiefs were queuing up to take the Queen’s money for huge tracts of their land. Why? Because they had no use for it. Their tribes were tiny, and they knew nothing of farming or forestry. They just saw it as waste land, so why not swap it for something useful?
  • In 1860, the largest-ever gathering of chiefs thanked the British for giving them law and order and property rights, for abolishing cannibalism and slavery, and for saving their people from extinction after a quarter century of intertribal genocide. (If only today’s Maori leaders were as grateful!)
  • As war loomed, the rebel tribes were warned that if they took up arms against the Queen, they’d have their lands taken and given to people who could be trusted to keep the peace.
  • All major Treaty claims were settled by 1947 – before the Pandora’s box was stupidly reopened in the 1970s.
  • Some claims have now been settled “fully and finally” four and five times – with no end in sight.
  • Hobson’s long-missing final Treaty draft was found in 1989, then hushed up by state academics. Why? Because that draft said the same things as the Maori Tiriti (the only treaty Hobson recognised). And both the draft and the Tiriti make it clear that the Treaty was with “all the people of New Zealand”, not just Maori. And neither makes any mention of Maori owning forests or fisheries.

On Monday in Auckland, at the Remuera Rotary Club (which meets at the Remuera Bowling Club), I’ll be putting up my evidence against the Treatygate fraudsters.

More crucially, I’ll be putting up some solutions about how we can put an end to the Treatygate rort, and chart a more unified course.

Should we hijack the hijackers with a written constitution of our own?

Should we petition for a referendum to sweep away the whole Treaty gravy train once and for all?

Or should we start a one-off, one-term, totally incorruptible, single-issue political party to force the government to start running New Zealand as a democracy?

Should be an interesting speech.

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172 Responses to “Ansell on his Treatygate campaign”

  1. Griff (6,966 comments) says:

    http://www.nzcpr.com/petition_EqualRights.php
    We, New Zealanders, having founded our society in the equality of comradeship, and living here at home in the land we have made, utterly oppose any laws which establish or promote racial distinction or division.

    There shall be one law for all:

    We refuse to accept any reference to the Treaty of Waitangi or its principles in any constitutional document.
    We require that such references be removed from all existing legislation.
    We require that race-based Parliamentary seats be abolished.
    We require that race-based representation on local bodies be abolished.
    We require that the Waitangi Tribunal, which has outlived any usefulness it may have had, be abolished.

    And we pledge ourselves to oppose and resist all those of whatever rank or degree who, whether by force or the devious processes of the law, attempt to impose the fetters of racial inequality on the free citizens of New Zealand.
    The Declaration

    The Government’s constitutional review provides an opportunity to usher in a new era of democracy for New Zealand based on equality under the law.

    Help us create a movement for change by signing the DECLARATION OF EQUALITY and calling on others to do the same. Our initial target is 20,000 signatures, but we hope to build to 50,000, 100,000 and more. We will deliver the Declaration to Government Ministers in September next year to coincide with the report back from the Maori Party’s Constitutional Advisory Panel. We will keep you informed of progress…

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  2. Viking2 (11,220 comments) says:

    Time we had some leadership on this issue.

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  3. Keeping Stock (10,161 comments) says:

    John Ansell does nothing for nothing. So who is his paymaster?

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  4. Alan Johnstone (1,073 comments) says:

    The “forest and fisheries” thing is a nonsense;

    Go at look at historical records, in 1845 there is a debate on this issue in the UK house of commons on this issue, only 5 years after the thing was signed,the phrase “forest and fisheries” is used there.

    The British were clear then that they had signed a treaty with this phrase, no one had an issue with it then.

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  5. Pete George (23,165 comments) says:

    Should we hijack the hijackers with a written constitution of our own?

    That sounds more ‘them versus us” than bringing everyone together as one and equal.

    Should we petition for a referendum to sweep away the whole Treaty gravy train once and for all?

    That is something that seems totally contrary to the one law for all. If the Treaty claim process is stopped it will mean some Iwi will have settled and some will be denied settlement.

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  6. david c (254 comments) says:

    Why do you give air time to crazies?

    “Next week at Remuera Bowling Club, Tom Cruise talks Scientology”

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  7. Pete George (23,165 comments) says:

    There shall be one law for all:

    We refuse to accept…
    We require that…
    We require that…
    We require that…
    We require that…

    Decided by whom? All this requiring doesn’t seem very inclusive of all.

    This all sounds like “One law for all, the law we dictate, and you can get stuffed!”

    Ansell’s Colourblind and the NZCPR petition Declaration seem to be derisive and devisive. Good democracy involves working together and finding common ground.

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  8. YesWeDid (1,041 comments) says:

    Ansell does himself no favours with extremist rubbish like this on his blog:

    http://johnansell.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/for-muslim-read-maori/

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  9. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    “Good democracy involves working together and finding common ground.”
    ……
    but ultimately some positions cannot be compromised with such as the view on modern revisionist cultural fundamentalists who want us to meekly accept that they are tangata whenua (people of the land ; the locals) we are tauiwi (foreigners by ancestry), they have a cultural advantage and significant body of knowledge we don’t and that NZ and it’s resources ultimately belong to them.

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  10. Morgy (171 comments) says:

    I would like to hear what he has to say before building hidden meaning/conspiracy and the enivitable cry of Whacko (david c) and racist start. You know at 12:15pm today Willie and JT will attack the person; no doubt about that, which will fuel more angst rather than actually debate.
    What NZ desperately needs is open and more importantly mature discussion which has less political agenda attached to it. I agree with Pete George that Ansell is talking about one law and then the headlines looks to push an us v them hence we need to hear him out rather than attack the headline. The more reasoned we are in discussion, then both sides can be aired thus positions taken by voters. Fantasyland stuff eh?

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  11. RRM (9,606 comments) says:

    I don’t think I’ll be joining them, but don’t really have a problem with this sort of movement existing.

    If it’s reasonable to say you think past wrong should now be settled between the descendents of one party and innocent taxpayers, then it’s just as reasonable to say you don’t think so… IMO.

    I don’t think it will be bad for the country, for it to be seen that there’s a bit of opposition to the “WE the Maoris want THIS, WE the Maoris want THAT… Maori Maori Maori…” etc.

    You only have to look at the likes of Tuku Morgan, “Sir” Ngatata Love etc to see that whatever the treaty settlement process may be doing, it’s not lifting anyone out of low socio-economic pitfalls, it’s just lining pockets that are already well-lined…

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  12. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    “Good democracy involves working together and finding common ground.”

    Yeah thats worked well so far. Im sick of being told Im a foreigner in my own land. The whole treaty gravy train needs to be smashed for a start. John Ansells onto a winner, lets get behind him.

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  13. YesWeDid (1,041 comments) says:

    @Morgy – how do you see what Ansell is doing and the views he has enabling a ‘mature’ or ‘reasoned’ discussion.

    His views are extremist and no more rational or reasonable than those of Tama Iti.

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  14. James Stephenson (2,077 comments) says:

    and then the headlines looks to push an us v them

    Yes, but the “us” is everyone that want to look forwards and build a decent country for everyone and the “them” is the grievance gravy-train riders…

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  15. david c (254 comments) says:

    But we’ve heard what he has to say. And it’s craaaaaaaaaaaazy. He’s just a racist bigot. Check out YesWeDid’s post above to see that.

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  16. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    Alan Johnstone (155) Says:

    Go at look at historical records, in 1845 there is a debate on this issue in the UK house of commons on this issue, only 5 years after the thing was signed,the phrase “forest and fisheries” is used there.

    The British were clear then that they had signed a treaty with this phrase, no one had an issue with it then.
    ……
    so you’re the good bloke who occupies the moral high ground. What is your opinion on why the wording of the treaty takes the form it does?
    What does the treaty proscribe? How would you suggest the rest of the population are brought to accept a new political reality i n Aotearoa/NZ?
    Go for it champ!

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  17. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    So I presume you would say the same about harawira…a racist bigot?

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  18. Pete George (23,165 comments) says:

    Morgy – from my experience with John Ansell he can push the envelope to attract attention while he has been still prepared to debate, but there could be problems with some of those who will back his edgier proposals with fixed and immovable views. But there’s some of those on the othere side too.

    RRM – I have no problem with counter views being expressed, even if they are equal but opposite extremes.

    The best way to prevent it becoming a shouting match from opposite sidelines is to build a bigger debate in the middle.

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  19. david c (254 comments) says:

    Yup. I would. Because I’m not a mental.

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  20. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    david c says:
    He’s just a racist bigot.

    oh you mean like Maori who claim they are tangata whenua and we are tauiwi?

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  21. david c (254 comments) says:

    “The best way to prevent it becoming a shouting match from opposite sidelines is to build a bigger debate in the middle.”

    Don’t be so sanctimonious. You don’t debate mentals. That only gives them oxygen.

    If someone posits that Maori/Pacific Islanders should stand on the bus for white folk, do we ‘debate’ them? No. We ignore them. Because they are mental.

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  22. Scott Chris (5,947 comments) says:

    Ansell really does live in a bubble. His brand of revisionism will only be paid heed by those without substantial political influence who are intentionally or unintentionally perpetuating racial hatred. (yes Hone Harawira fits into that category too)

    After all, perception is political reality and the widely held perception is that Maori were wrongfully dispossessed of their land in many instances, and that until these injustices are settled they will continue to be a running sore.

    And in spite of what Ansell says, the end is in sight. Didn’t the most recalcitrant and militant tribe of them all, the Tuhoe, just agree to settle?

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  23. Pete George (23,165 comments) says:

    Accusing and abusing others is bigotry and counterproductive to progressing the debate.

    What we need to do is claim our own standing. For example I feel I am as much born and raised on the land of New Zealand as anyone. I should express that more, and claim my own place in this country.

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  24. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    @ davic c

    One of jh’s themes has been dis-satisfaction with the Green Party for not being specific about the outcomes of our policy in relation to the Treaty. “What, specifically, will this country be like if we go down this course?”. It’s a question I have heard many times over the years, and it usually speaks from a position of fear and insecurity for Pakeha: what if I’ll be worse off? or even what if there’s no place for me?
    I want to acknowledge that actually we are asking people to do something (and we are doing it too) quite different from what we usually ask with our policy. Normally we have a very clear idea of the outcome we are seeking, and establish a policy to reflect how we will get there.
    But the Treaty is different. The words all have the potential to sound pretty hammy, but fundamentally the outcome being sought is a process: the process of absolute good faith negotiation, in which we Pakeha engage from a position of honour [not majority interest] – acting ethically and morally.
    That process involves courage because we don’t know the outcome (and because we know we have it pretty sweet just how things are, let’s be honest). It is pretty scary, but it’s also pretty damn exciting!
    http://blog.greens.org.nz/2010/05/03/my-speech-at-blackball-2010/

    Avoid myopic view of Fiji
    http://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/opinion/54464/avoid-myopic-view-fiji

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  25. grumpyoldhori (2,412 comments) says:

    Ansell is an idiot, he wants to go back to before when the treaty was signed.
    Which means your title on your land will be null and void.
    Want that ?

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  26. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    Do-Gooder [Perjorative term]
    Urban dictionary

    An earnest but often naïve person (typically educated and white) who wants reform through philanthropic or egalitarian means. e.g. wealth redistribution, social justice, welfare, third world immigration, adoption of “disadvantaged” children (usually non-white and from abroad), affirmative action and spending other peoples’ money for good causes. See also white guilt. Do-gooders always mean well but may misinterpret opposing preferences to be racist, cold, intolerant or greedy. They genuinely want human development & positive environmental awareness, although the methods are a source of debate.

    Do-Gooders can be either liberal/left or “social conservative” (as opposed to fiscal). For some, issues such as “ethnic diversity” & “multiculturalism” are a religious calling, but they generally don’t have the same burden for promoting it in countries apart from western ones – and don’t feel that having a lack of ethnic diversity is a crime for any non-european countries (e.g. Japan). A few inherent contradictions may exist, such as the fact that literal “multiculturalism” would instead favor separation of ethnic or cultural groups to maintain “diversity”. Some subconsciously believe that decreasing the “european-descent” portion of the population pie is indicative of western progress.
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=do-gooder

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  27. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    I just want the public – Maori and non – to be asked whether they want to live in a Colourblind State (one where state money is spent according to need, not race) or an apartheid state.

    Give the people a say.

    Give Achiever Maori a say, and I think you’ll be surprised. A lot of them tell me they can’t stand the Grievers presuming to speak for them.

    It’s a democracy, isn’t it?

    Isn’t it?

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  28. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Hang on, the spokesman (GOH) for the bludger brigade has arrived.

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  29. grumpyoldhori (2,412 comments) says:

    For a bit of fun I might just send a couple of the larger relatives along to photograph all those attending the meeting.
    They will of course be a whiter shade of pale those who want to listen to Ansell, just visitors to NZ.

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  30. david c (254 comments) says:

    I CALL SHENANIGANS: “I just want the public – Maori and non – to be asked whether they want to live in a Colourblind State (one where state money is spent according to need, not race) or an apartheid state.”

    Those are not the only two options.

    Nice attempt at a strawman though.

    “I just want people to choose, do we live in a world where Maori are treated like the scum they are, or one where every child is molested for the first 18 years of their lives”

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  31. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    “For a bit of fun I might just send a couple of the larger relatives along”

    Are they out on parole ?

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  32. Morgy (171 comments) says:

    Yeswedid, I wasn’t saying John Ansells comments were mature and reasonable (and I am not saying they are not). What I am saying is he should be heard and moreso from beyond the headlines or the invitation. Does he want to go back to a time before the Treaty? I don’t know….that’s the point.

    Pete, I suppose that is the problem in our country at the moment; the extreme views get the noise whilst the average view is lost. Maybe that is what this could do by raising the noise of the average.

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  33. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    NZCP and Ansell site has some good stuff that doesn’t make it to the mainstream media.
    http://johnansell.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/hobbling-new-zealand-the-agenda-of-the-constitutional-advisory-panel/

    Whitebaiter too white for beach bullies
    http://johnansell.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/whitebaiter-too-white-for-beach-bullies/

    Author Bruce Moon points out Delahunty’s majestically blinkered analysis:

    She condemns at a stroke all white men’s accounts of historical events they witnessed.

    Marvellous – none of it counts for anything in her view (and, one suspects that of many/most of her co-conspirators.)

    Then she can ‘prove’ anything else that takes her fancy — intellectual dishonesty of the highest degree.

    It is a blatant piece of racism.

    Yet the Waitangi tribunal accepts anything the grievers want to say about the past.

    Notice the difference.

    I ask: why should anybody else’s (Maori?) accounts be taken as any more reliable?
    http://johnansell.wordpress.com/category/politics/catherine-delahunty/

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  34. Bob R (1,354 comments) says:

    Great stuff Mr Ansell, I wish you well and will be making a contribution to your bold campaign.

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  35. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    grumpyoldhori (2,286) Says:
    October 5th, 2012 at 11:29 am

    Ansell is an idiot,
    ……
    He’s right about the extreme position of some:

    grumpyoldhori (2,263) Says:
    September 14th, 2012 at 9:27 am

    Damn, becoming a member of the live off the rents set, with my peasants working hard to keep me in a style I and only I deserve.

    Jeez the frothing at the mouth by visitors to NZ is amusing, how do I put this, oh yes, it is none of your fucking business.

    No what we really need is a Balkan solution, now who is going to volunteer to chuck those darkies out of Burnham ?

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  36. Falafulu Fisi (2,176 comments) says:

    Grumphori…
    For a bit of fun I might just send a couple of the larger relatives along to photograph all those attending the meeting.

    I’ll be there.

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  37. grumpyoldhori (2,412 comments) says:

    Falafulu Fisi tsk tsk dear boy, it is for whites only, not for the likes of you.
    But after the meeting they will be having a white pride march through Otara.

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  38. lastmanstanding (1,233 comments) says:

    Whats wrong with one law for all. Come on tell whats wrong with that. Oh so you want 2 or more laws depending on a persons colour.
    So a whitey gets treated different from a person from another culture.

    Thats what you want isnt it. Whitey to pay and keep paying so others can bludge of whitey.

    Come on fess up and be honest for once in your miserable lives.

    I reckon a hell of a lot of Maori people and especially Asian and others are sick to the back teeth of the mostly whitey liberals banging on about how down trodden Maori people are.

    I betcha if you asked a hell of a lot of Maori people are fed up with thw Treaty gravy train lawyer class and the Maori Aristrocracy the few families who have poketed the treaty settlement for themselves.

    Fact is a Billion Dollars over the past 15 years and not one cent has gone to the vast majority of Maori people. Instead a few have become very rich.

    Fact is the Maori Aristocracy make the Pommie Aristocracy look like a bunch od amatures.

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  39. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    Scott Chris (4,524) Says:
    October 5th, 2012 at 11:20 am

    Ansell really does live in a bubble. His brand of revisionism will only be paid heed by those without substantial political influence who are intentionally or unintentionally perpetuating racial hatred. (yes Hone Harawira fits into that category too)

    After all, perception is political reality and the widely held perception is that Maori were wrongfully dispossessed of their land in many instances, and that until these injustices are settled they will continue to be a running sore.

    And in spite of what Ansell says, *the end is in sight*. Didn’t the most recalcitrant and militant tribe of them all, the Tuhoe, just agree to settle?
    ……………………….

    contradicted by:
    Tarian Turia : Tribes Treaty Claims 1.5% of what was taken. Settlements can’t be full and final.
    Nati apa Treaty Claims. Our young people have taken that settlement through and because I have particular views about settlements I’ve had to remain [“ “] or I’ll put our young people off. But they have worked constructively with our government and they’ve got about
    1.5% of what was taken. TT says “no government cant expect people settlements to be full and final if justice isn’t served.”
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/national/ckpt/2008/09/05/waatea_news

    contradicted by:
    #3 on Green Party list
    Our Charter also explicitly accepts Te Tiriti o Waitangi as the founding document of this country, recognising Maori as Tangata Whenua. //

    The phase of the discussion that we now need to move into is one that that focuses on Maori status as the indigenous people of this country and on the actual content of the Treaty: a statement of the terms and conditions for the presence of non-Maori. The Maori right to self-determination pre-dated the Treaty and was not altered by it. What is at issue in understanding the Treaty are the rights of non-Maori.

    Let us be clear that the meaning of the Treaty must be determined from the Maori text. Those writers of angry letters to the editor who cite the plain cession of sovereignty of the English text and declare “game over” in fact ignore the law, which makes it the responsibility of the party offering a contract to ensure that the party accepting it fully understands it. If disputes arise, interpretations of the contract are to be made according to the understanding of the accepting party rather than the party that drew up the contract.//
    It is plain that sovereignty was not ceded by the Treaty, but rather Pakeha were given a basis for establishing government (of Pakeha). No wonder the historical record is of Maori disillusionment and anger since.”
    This article was printed in Te Awa, the Magazine of the Green Party of Aotearoa.

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  40. RRM (9,606 comments) says:

    Grumpy old hori are you trolling on John Ansell’s behalf? Because you are doing the ToW cause no favours with your comments here…

    I am not a visitor to this country. I was born here, as were my parents, their parents and several of their parents. I am EVERY BIT as much a citizen here as any Maori, and I am not wronging anybody or keeping anybody down.

    I am not a fervent follower of John Ansell’s but you seem to be trying to give me reasons to start supporting him?

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  41. YesWeDid (1,041 comments) says:

    @lastmanstanding – I guess you’ve never bothered to ask what do the likes of Ngai Tahu do with their money?

    Well this might help http://www.whairawa.com/

    Some of the faces on their website don’t look very brown do they?

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  42. Bob R (1,354 comments) says:

    ***But after the meeting they will be having a white pride march through Otara.***

    @ grumpyoldhori,

    Irrational comment. If you’re consistent you must be against the existence of the Maori Party, no?

    Why are you so concerned about a discussion about the meaning of the Treaty & having a “Colour Blind” state?

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  43. grumpyoldhori (2,412 comments) says:

    RRM you are a whiter shade of pale are you not ?
    Do you not have a duty to join Ansell in his white power march ?

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  44. Longknives (4,624 comments) says:

    “For a bit of fun I might just send a couple of the larger relatives along to photograph all those attending the meeting”

    I might go then- A couple of fat ‘Bros’ with scribble on their faces poking their tongues trying to intimidate people would amuse me…

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  45. grumpyoldhori (2,412 comments) says:

    Bob R because Ansell is an idiot and so is all those who follow his ideas.
    If you are going to have a white pride meeting why not a march through Otara ?

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  46. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    the do gooder position requires an *the end is in sight* and a benevolent wise Maori (like a Goldie painting). Unfortunately the treay reflects the fact that they Maori were battle hardened and out numbered Europeans upwards of 60,000 to 2000 and England was at least 6months round trip away. Only people with heads up their backsides see it as a workable foundation stone for a modern state.

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  47. Alan Johnstone (1,073 comments) says:

    @hj 11:16

    Don’t grasp your post at all, I make no claim for moral high ground. I just pointed out that contemporary British sources use the phrase “forest and fisheries” without having an issue with it.

    The claim that it didn’t exist in the treaty seems flawed, if its a fabrication as some claim, its damn early and was widely accepted by people that would know better.

    You appear to have created a policy position for me out of thin air, that I don’t hold. I personally don’t think the treaty has wanting meaning, I don’t believe that a partnership was created, its simply a document of submission to the crown and the extension of British law to these islands, that includes property rights for everyone.

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  48. Bob R (1,354 comments) says:

    @ grumpyoldhori,

    What is with the demonisation of a Colour Blind campaign? AGAIN – ARE YOU ALSO AGAINST THE EXISTENCE OF THE MAORI PARTY? If you’re not you are either:

    a) a hypocrite

    b) an idiot

    c) desparately trying to shame people into ignoring what Ansell has to say.

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  49. Pete George (23,165 comments) says:

    I don’t “have a duty to join Ansell in his white power march”. But I see a need to query the degree of a Maori minority power march. It would be good to know what most of those who identify as Maori think.

    The only way John’s campaign will get anywhere useful is if it draws support from the many in the middle, including some Maori. Some of his terminology is designed to attract attention but using terms like aparteid and whatever-gate are likely to only appeal to some.

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  50. RRM (9,606 comments) says:

    Grumpy –

    No, John Ansell & I are not a “Tribe” and I don’t have any duty of allegiance to him or anything like that.

    But yes I am one of the paler New Zealand citizens. Is that an issue?

    It might surprise you to know I have actually spent a fair amount of time in Otara, I worked there for 5 years. That place is many things but in my experience it’s neither (a) a hotbed of Maori nationalism, nor (b) particularly hostile to whitey…

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  51. Bob R (1,354 comments) says:

    ***But I see a need to query the degree of a Maori minority power march. ***

    @ Pete George,

    In grumpoldhori’s eyes the Maori Party are actually a Maori Power party – maybe his simplistic Marxist analysis has some merit :)

    You can’t just have a discussion about what the Treaty means or whether everyone should be equal under law – no it must be some evil white power rally, or an evil Brown Power rally over who owns the water.

    Post-modernism truly rots the brain.

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  52. Griff (6,966 comments) says:

    So one law for all is racist and giving special rights to people based on their great great great great great grandfathers race and place if residence is not. GOH has again used threats of violence to put the maori view forward. David c starts making racist comments saying wanting a single law and identical rights is the same as making pi and maori stand at the back of the bus If you dont support maori apartheid you get labelled with the title white supremacist
    PG says equal rights derisive and devisive.
    FFS the derisive and devisive faction is those that seek to have extra rights based on ancient history We have gone far to far towards a apartheid state now if we dont say enough the racist within maori will continue to demand extra rights and extra funding that is apartheid by its very nature
    Unless a main stream party cones out with a no more treaty division and rejects totally the whole iwi vrs kiwi thing I will be giving my party vote to Ansells party as will enough people to thwart the influence of hone and the racist maori party. I also support the above petition and have noticed that it is not getting any space from the MSM unlike any green party initiative which gets far more press with far less support.

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  53. RRM (9,606 comments) says:

    Come to think of it it’s probably all the PI boys who work in the factories around there that make Otara feel like a good place to be, even at sparrows’ fart in the morning when it’s still dark.

    Good solid, hardworking PI lads, you always feel safe on the early East Tamaki bus with those blokes around, knowing that you’re among honest, decent men with a work ethic…

    ….Sorry, what are we talking about, again?

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  54. Viking2 (11,220 comments) says:

    grumpyoldhori (2,289) Says:
    October 5th, 2012 at 11:34 am

    For a bit of fun I might just send a couple of the larger relatives along to photograph all those attending the meeting.
    They will of course be a whiter shade of pale those who want to listen to Ansell, just visitors to NZ.

    Ah, so now we know what the problem at GCSB is don’t we( how many photo’s have you ordered up for them eh?). It exists for the benefit of GOH and his mates. The truth is he doesn’t like whitey’s do you.

    but your supposition that only whitey’s will go may well be incorrect and certainly from MHE there are many coloured fella’s who would actually welcome a change to get rid of you bullying bigoted thieving types at the Maori elite table.

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  55. MajorBloodnok (361 comments) says:

    What would be ironic (to say the least) would be to see John Minto, et al, protesting against a movement that was advocating the abolition of race-based policies in NZ.

    I find it sad that there are so many vitriolic responses here, from people who would speak up for freedom of speech (if it was Hone, or Turiana, or Tame Iti…) but who cannot extend the same courtesy to someone who dares to look at what NZ might look like in 10 or 20 years, if present trends continue. And who doesn’t like it.

    I applaud someone who is willing to get off his backside to see if other NZs are willing to do the same and who say that this matter is a concern that they share.

    Frothing at the mouth is not a strong indicator of rational thought.

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  56. Paul Williams (877 comments) says:

    David, you said it’d be interesting; why? It’ll be myopic, intolerant, racist shit. It might take twenty minutes and have a clever catchphrase, but you can’t honestly think it’ll be anything other than Ansell’s copyrighted, predicable diatribe?

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  57. Pete George (23,165 comments) says:

    ‘Aparthied’ is an inaccurate and inflammatory term. I’m not aware of any proposals for racial segregation.

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  58. MajorBloodnok (361 comments) says:

    Racial segregation doesn’t happen in NZ? Try this for size…

    Canterbury’s Ashley River mouth is the latest part of the foreshore and seabed to witness the bully-boy tactics of Griever Maori with an inflated sense of entitlement:

    A Canterbury whitebaiter says he was spat on and verbally abused by a group of Maori for fishing at the Ashley River, north of Christchurch over the weekend.

    The man, who only wants to be identified as Simon, was confronted on the beach after whitebaiting for three hours at the river mouth.

    Simon says he was driving back along the beach when two elderly Maori blocked the road with their ute.

    “This Maori lady came up to me and said, ‘You white piece of fu**en trash,’ and spat on the ground in front of me,” he says.

    “She said, ‘This is our bloody land. Who do you think you are coming down here?’”

    Except it wasn’t their ‘bloody land’. It was public land. And Simon no doubt thought he was a member of the public.

    Parts of the land at the mouth of the Ashley River is administered by the Te Kohaka Tuhaitara Trust in partnership with the Waimakarirei District Council, but they don’t not have ownership.

    Imagine what the Grievers will be like if they ever do have ownership.

    more at https://johnansell.wordpress.com/category/politics/foreshore-and-seabed/

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  59. Bob R (1,354 comments) says:

    @ Paul Williams,

    Is Ansell wrong about the Hobson’s version of the treaty? That sounds interesting don’t you think?

    In fact, seeing you’re so adamant why not go through point by point and explain how you disagree with the points in the invitation? The floor is yours.

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  60. Longknives (4,624 comments) says:

    “I’m not aware of any proposals for racial segregation.”

    Sorry Pete- But have you been living on another planet for the past few years?
    For example- How the hell would you describe the proposed ‘seperate justice system’ if not “racial segregation”??

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  61. graham (2,250 comments) says:

    Pete George at 12:39 –

    I’m not aware of any proposals for racial segregation.

    Really? You haven’t been paying much attention then, have you?

    Annette Sykes has argued (when defending Tame Iti) that Crown Law does not stretch to the ceremonial area in front of a marae’s wharenui.

    Mana’s foreign policy includes the requirement to “Make New Zealand’s support for the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples unconditional.” Have you read the declaration? Among other things, it “emphasizes the rights of indigenous peoples to maintain and strengthen their own institutions, cultures and traditions, and to pursue their development in keeping with their own needs and aspirations”

    Mana’s foreign policy also includes: “Work with indigenous peoples to develop alternative constitutional arrangements that recognise and protect indigenous sovereignty.”

    Whatever you call it, that’s talking about segregation based on race.

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  62. Pete George (23,165 comments) says:

    MajorBloodnok – that’s not apartheid. It has nothing to do with state imposed segregation. It’s a very small number of people trying to bully people away from public land, so there is nothing legal about it (if it happened as described).

    graham, one single MP party ‘talking about segregation’ is a lot different to state imposed segregation. Many stupid things are proposed and talked about that have no chance of happening.

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  63. Griff (6,966 comments) says:

    Apartheid =separate development
    special seats in parliament, special seats in council, special rights and the power of veto over development of the land, special state funded schools were maori only is spoken. The right to veto research in our universitys, The separate justice system and law that some are demanding.
    APARTHEID is the reality of the direction this country is heading in That some dont like the word does not change the reality of the separatism that maori are demanding

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  64. graham (2,250 comments) says:

    Pete, you said you weren’t aware of any proposals for racial segregation. I’m simply pointing out that there ARE such proposals. And I’ve only quoted three examples, I’m sure you can easily think of a lot more that I haven’t mentioned. You may believe they have no chance of happening, but these things are being talked about.

    And not just by “one single MP party”, by the way. I suggest you try listening to Radio Waatea (although that is in Auckland, and I don’t know if it is available on the Web) and conduct a little test – keep count of the number of times you hear the phrase “our people” mentioned. As in, “we need to achieve xyz for our people“; “it’s good to see someone speaking up for our people“; “this xyz proposal will have a negative impact on our people“.

    I’m not saying whether these are good or bad proposals; but to pretend these things aren’t being discussed is naive.

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  65. grumpyoldhori (2,412 comments) says:

    Now chaps do not forget to shave your heads so that you will fit in well with this mob.
    Oh, and do not forget the white pride T shirt when you join Ansell at his little get together.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6673662/White-power-movement-delivers-warning

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  66. ChardonnayGuy (1,169 comments) says:

    Yes, good point. Judging from Winston and Pauline (Winstonette) Hanson, the indigenous-basher vote does tend to be mired firmly in the anti-market, reactionary nationalist politics of New Zealand First and Whine- oops, One, Nation. Wouldn’t it be more advisable to try to appeal to middle-class Maori who share classical liberal values instead?

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  67. wtfunz (133 comments) says:

    ScottChris – 11.20pm and PG – 11.23pm – you two two girlfriends must be living in a bubble.

    “the end is in site” – It will never end. Those that have had “full and final settlements” have trigger clauses for more and are leading the march for water. Tanui with $1 billion in assets, due to settlements not hard work or brains, wants more and more and more.

    PG – “accusing and abusing is bigotry and counter productive” – then you are both as your only reaction to those who disagree with you is accusation. Read your own replies!!! When asked for solutions you offer none and withdraw into your hole.

    You call now for “public debate” but condemn the likes of John Ansell for starting some from the other side of the argument. New Zealanders have been bombarded to the point of submission re the treaty settlement debacle to the extent most have given up or left for Aussie.
    PG – please tell us how we have been consulted, engaged with or invited to debate this tragedy in the past 20 years. You will go quiet again I suspect as we have simply been sold down the path by a processesion of lilly livered politicians buying votes to protect their jobs.

    grumyoldhori – we’ll see you there poking your tongue out and baring your arse like the neanderthal you constantly prove you are — “I’ll bring a couple of big bros” – what a wanker!!!

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  68. Pete George (23,165 comments) says:

    graham – fair enough, I should have qualified with ‘realistic proposal’. If Labour take Mana into a coalition I’ll look closely ate any policy agreements.

    “Our people” grates a bit with me at times, but that sort of claim is not confined to Maori groups. Politicians often speak of ‘New Zealanders’ as if they are their people, or they are speaking for those people.

    Trying to get preferential treatment (everyone does that) is different to racial segregation.

    Regions try to get preferential treatment and assistance, I’m not a great supporter of that but I do supported regions and groups being funded so they can make their own choices and work out their best solutions.

    Trying to apply everything evenly to everyone from central Government is something that often doesn’t work well. If regional solutions sometimes favour Maori because they are the majority in a region I don’t have a problem with that.

    If different forms of justice and rehabilitation can be more effective if targeted properly I think that’s worth considering.

    Trying to claim we can have equal everything, and that on equal terms is always the best way to do things, is unrealistic.

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  69. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    grumpyoldhori (2,289) Says:
    October 5th, 2012 at 12:17 pm
    Bob R because Ansell is an idiot and so is all those who follow his ideas.
    If you are going to have a white pride meeting why not a march through Otara ?
    ….
    Have fun
    http://www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logicalfallacies.aspx

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  70. Griff (6,966 comments) says:

    Actually gohori the skinheads that I have met support separate development for Maori :lol:
    That you try to label mainstream views as white power shows a common tactic of the racist Maori
    Racist=Racism is generally defined as actions, practices, or beliefs that reflect the racial worldview: the ideology that humans are divided into separate and exclusive biological entities called “races”. This ideology entails the belief that members of a race share a set of characteristic traits, abilities, or qualities, that traits of personality, intellect, morality, and other cultural behavioral characteristics are inherited, and that this inheritance means that races can be ranked as innately superior or inferior to others.

    Check the definition above against the maori first world view. Racist? you bet

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  71. Pete George (23,165 comments) says:

    wtfunz:

    You call now for “public debate” but condemn the likes of John Ansell for starting some from the other side of the argument.

    Crap.

    I’m contributing to and promoting debate here. I blogged John’s full email – John Ansell launching ‘Colourblind’. before most if not everyone else. I’ve discussed this with John by email – as I have done in the past with some of his initiatives. He says he is open to open discussion – I don’t doubt that, and so am I.

    Disagreeing with some aspects of the campaign and having doubts about others is not condemning the campaign. It should be a normal part of examining and debating.

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  72. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    The message must be the truth – to lay the blame for this firmly WHERE IT BELONGS – at the feet of the Maori elite and their white remuera socialist sympathisers. THEY created the problem, no one else, not mainstream NZ (including many maori).

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  73. Pete George (23,165 comments) says:

    You will go quiet again…

    Very funny. Some wish. Some try to make it happen.

    I’m one of the unquietist people across social media, and also am in direct contact with many people – those that don’t try to quieten me down because they can’t handle criticism.

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  74. Bob R (1,354 comments) says:

    ***This ideology entails the belief that members of a race share a set of characteristic traits, abilities, or qualities, that traits of personality, intellect, morality, and other cultural behavioral characteristics are inherited, and that this inheritance means that races can be ranked as innately superior or inferior to others.***

    @ Griff,

    What you call ideology, is in fact basic science. Races and sub-species occur in most animal species and humans are not special or unique in that respect.

    What you’ve said though reflects a strawman – that people within groups all have exactly the same set of traits. Individuals vary, but on average groups do differ. Professor Steve Hsu explains here:

    “For previous discussion of genetic clustering of human populations, see here and here. It has been known for some time that major continental groups (“races”) form distinct clusters. Improved data allow for much finer exploration of clusters within clusters….

    On the other hand, for most phenotypes (examples: height or IQ, which are both fairly heritable, except in cases of extreme environmental deprivation), there is significant overlap between different population distributions. That is, Swedes might be taller than Vietnamese on average, but the range of heights within each group is larger than the difference in the averages. Nevertheless, at the tails of the distribution one would find very large discrepancies: for example the percentage of the Swedish population that is over 2 meters tall (6″7) might be 5 or 10 times as large as the percentage of the Vietnamese population. If two groups differed by, say, 10 points in average IQ (2/3 of a standard deviation), the respective distributions would overlap quite a bit (more in-group than between-group variation), but the fraction of people with IQ above some threshold (e.g., >140) would be radically different. It has been claimed that 20% of all Americans with IQ > 140 are Jewish, even though Jews comprise only 3% of the total population…

    There is no strong evidence yet for specific gene variants (alleles) that lead to group differences (differences between clusters) in behavior or intelligence, but progress on the genomic side of this question will be rapid in coming years, as the price to sequence a genome is dropping at an exponential rate.

    What seems to be true (from preliminary studies) is that the gene variants that were under strong selection (reached fixation) over the last 10k years are different in different clusters. That is, the way that modern people in each cluster differ, due to natural selection, from their own ancestors 10k years ago is not the same in each cluster — we have been, at least at the genetic level, experiencing divergent evolution.

    In fact, recent research suggests that 7% or more of all our genes are mutant versions that replaced earlier variants through natural selection over the last tens of thousands of years. There was little gene flow between continental clusters (“races”) during that period, so there is circumstantial evidence for group differences beyond the already established ones (superficial appearance, disease resistance).”

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  75. Paul Williams (877 comments) says:

    Bob R said

    @ Paul Williams,

    Is Ansell wrong about the Hobson’s version of the treaty? That sounds interesting don’t you think?

    In fact, seeing you’re so adamant why not go through point by point and explain how you disagree with the points in the invitation? The floor is yours.

    Been there and done that and, as my father advised me; never argue with a fool, to anyone watching, it’s simply a foolish argument.

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  76. wtfunz (133 comments) says:

    PG -
    “Ansell’s Colourblind and the NZCPR petition Declaration seem to be derisive and devisive. Good democracy involves working together and finding common ground.”

    Sounds very supportive of free speech and the start of a debate which so far has been completely lacking.

    I ask again PG:-
    – please tell us how we have been consulted, engaged with or invited to debate this tragedy in the past 20 years.

    I know you won’t answer again as you don’t have one. If you won’t answer I implore you to get back in that bubble of yours,with your mates ,where you are safe from the real world.

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  77. Bob R (1,354 comments) says:

    @ Paul Williams,

    That seems a fairly defeatist attitude. I would genuinely like to know why you disagree with what Ansell’s said. Why bother posting at all?

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  78. graham (2,250 comments) says:

    Pete, my point is that it’s *not* *just* *Mana*. Look at some of the Greens’ policies, they talk about similar things – and, like them or loathe them, nobody can deny that the Greens are now a major force in NZ politics. Listen to Radio Waatea, or other Maori radio stations.

    And the phrase “our people” is used quite differently by Maori to the way politicians use it. I don’t listen to these radio stations all the time, but when I do listen to Radio Waatea, or to Willie and JT on Radio Live occasionally, I hear a lot of people using that phrase – not just the hosts, but the people calling up talkback, the man and woman in the street.

    I personally would be very hesitant to use the term ‘Apartheid’, if only because it can be so inflammatory. I’m also very cautious about throwing the term ‘racist’ around for similar reasons – I dislike Hone Harawira and his politics intensely, but one thing I wouldn’t call him is racist. I think people who do refer to Hone as racist don’t really think it through. He’s a nasty, bigoted, prejudiced man – but he’s not racist, in my opinion.

    But to say that there are no proposals for racial segregation is wrong. These proposals are out there, they are being talked about and discussed by a lot of Maori, in my opinion. And a few non-Maori, for that matter. Hey, I’ve even mentioned the idea myself before now (http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/09/so_much_for_that_hui.html#comment-1023186). But it’s still racial segregation.

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  79. Paul Williams (877 comments) says:

    Bob R, thanks for the offer, and with respect, I don’t expect that this is a forum for sensible discussion. Although I often disagree with David Farrar, I do respect he has genuinely held and considered views. I don’t, though, think that this extends to the commentary section. FWIW, I have tried to debate with John in the past, albeit on other matters, it’s not been worth it.

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  80. Griff (6,966 comments) says:

    Yes IQ and a lot of other traits are hereditary The definition of racist still stands eugenics is a taboo subject. there has been a lot of papers recently that have identified genetic difference within the European genotype traceable to soon after the migration from Africa. Maori have interbreed with European stock to such a degree that no full blooded Maori exists. Democratic one man one vote all equal under the law is being eroded in this country by maori seeking to capture special rights on the basis of race. The past injustices that maori suffered are no reason to construct more injustice into the future two wrongs do not make a right. Our society has been one of the most democratic nations in the history of civilisation apartheid is a step back not a step forward.

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  81. Bob R (1,354 comments) says:

    @ Griff,

    My point is that there are human races, communists tend to deny this but reality is what it is. You’re also right that Maori are intermixed with Europeans.

    Either way you can acknowledge there are races, or that there are males & females, while accepting that everyone should be equal as an individual under law.

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  82. DJP6-25 (1,295 comments) says:

    Griff 10:09 am. Works for me.

    cheers

    David Prosser

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  83. MH (674 comments) says:

    The day that Maori tribes seek redress from each other will be a major breakthrough in accepting responsibility for their actions prior to 1840, to pay reparations and publically apologise to the slaughtered disposessed and enslaved tribes,some of whom no longer exist but mysteriously a cuzzie survived to demand payment from the Crown=us,the taxpayer. Would any of this farce be occurring if the latest tribe to invade these islands had been brown faced? Not bloody likely.

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  84. Griff (6,966 comments) says:

    I have no problem with any one celebrating there ancestors I acknowledge mine the handle I use is a short form of the welsh word for chief.
    What I object to is special laws and treatment based on race We are having a review of the constitution at present that has been heavily loaded with persons that have a Maori first world view.This review has more money to consult the 15% of the population that are maori then it does to consult the other 85%. It is my and a considerable number of other peoples view that this review will attempt to enshrine a racist constitution on this country based on a flawed Maori interpretation of the treaty.The intent of the crown was to secure sovereignty of New Zealand as laid out in the preamble in English. Enough of the maori who signed spoke English and were experienced in the outside world to make this fact common knowledge to maori
    Yet the revisionist claim that only the modern translation of the maori version should be upheld.

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  85. wtfunz (133 comments) says:

    Paul Williams is obviously in the limp wrist camp with PG = same Bubble!!!

    Paul – I’m also really keen to hear your arguement. If you caren’t defend your position best not to have one at all. This is especially the case if your position is indefensible.

    How can you defend a money hungry race (and they are one by name – Maori, not New Zealanders) demanding payouts for past events based on a illegible, misguided, incomplete, ambiguous document which has been manipulated to suit the wants and needs of a few? The latter at the expense of the many.

    I can see why it is so hard to defend this position.

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  86. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    The tranfer of money and assets is now over ONE TRILLION dollars – how much do we all have to give until this scam is over?

    Bob Mann’s (famous activist from the 60s) interview about PC bullshit is interesting – how these causes can be subverted by self interest and the iwi elite subversion is the classic example – the trickle up effect.
    http://www.planetaudio.org.nz/greenplanet/player

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  87. Bob R (1,354 comments) says:

    @ Paul Williams,

    Ok, fair enough.

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  88. Falafulu Fisi (2,176 comments) says:

    Grumphori, its not about whites and non-whites. Its about property rights and individual rights, which should supersede racial division. If the argument is about property rights & individual rights, then it should be colorblind. How about you read the following article by Peter Creswell and see if you can dispute the main points he discussed in the article?

    ‘One-Law-For-All’ Day

    If you can’t argue with the points made by Mr Creswell in his article, then you should know immediately that John Ansell is correct. The law should be colorblind, period.

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  89. Chuck Bird (4,734 comments) says:

    Ansell might have a high IQ but his EQ is not too high. He might present similar argument to Don Brash, Muriel Newman, Peter Creswell, Winston Peters and others but he does so in a very offensive way.

    He has little common sense and is one of the ones primarily responsible for ACT’s demise.

    There is no way his party will achieve the threshold.

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  90. Paul Williams (877 comments) says:

    @wtfunz, you are a perfect example of kind of person my wise father urged me to ignore.

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  91. Bob R (1,354 comments) says:

    @ Chuck Bird,

    If ACT had used him up till the election then maybe that would be fair criticism, but given they lacked the courage to do so their can’t be attributed to him.

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  92. Chuck Bird (4,734 comments) says:

    Bob, Ansell was instrumental in persuading Don Brash to challenge for leadership before he joined ACT. This was very costly to ACT. He then thought while be paid by ACT he could demand whatever he decided as far a an his ad campaign was not to be modified or rejected. That is why they rightly got rid of him. He then continued to damage ACT.

    His cartoons about Key while he was working for Douglas did not help ACT much either.

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  93. Griff (6,966 comments) says:

    Paul Williams you put forward a comment that ansell is racist blahblah blah then refuse to give any argument to back up your assertion Instead proceed to put down anyone that has a different view than your unknown one.That makes you nothing more than a empty troll with no content or standpoint except to be negative.
    I dont agree with ansells more outrageous statements He is the only one making a stand for equality on this the most important political discussion to face New Zealand for the last fifty years, Where is the public debate over the treaty that the constitutional review is supposed to facilitate?. Why is the amount to consult with maori $2,100,000 and with the rest $2,000,000? We are one nation not two why should there be separate consultation in the constitutional debate?. Why do you support apartheid?

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  94. wtfunz (133 comments) says:

    @ Paul W – I on the other hand don’t need anyone to tell what you are, what you represent or how shallow you are.

    “my wise father urged me to ignore” —- “as my father advised me”
    You keep relying on everyone else to tell you what to do and think and you will continue to be a part of the problem. And you will continue to run from straight forward, reasoned questions for no other reason than you’ve taken your bat and ball home to cry to your mummy (sorry daddy) how “they were mean to me”!!!

    Still waiting for your answer by the way.

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  95. Colville (2,150 comments) says:

    Maybe is just me but all Paul Williams needs to do is mention that he is wonderful at programming and he could be lprent.

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  96. Sam Buchanan (502 comments) says:

    I’m kind of intrigued by this ‘colourblind’ stuff, a rehashing of Rua Kenana’s call for ‘one law for all’ it seems (odd that Ansell never seems to mention his ideological roots in Tuhoe history). Especially after reading the article by Peter Creswell linked to above, which rambles on about the wonders of British law and Western civilisation and how lucky Maori are to have had it imposed on them. It might be good to have a colour blind state where this sort of cultural supremacism is dumped and we are all treated equally.

    Presumably this would mean that if we go into a state institution, such as a court or a school, all cultures and ethnicities will be treated equally, so we’ll be working in the language and cultural values of the British on a Monday, Maori on a Tuesday, Chinese on a Wednesday, maybe a mix of Pacific cultures and languages on a Thursday and a randomly chosen culture on Friday. I would expect the Office of Treaty Settlements to be closed and replaced with an Office of Everyone Who Has had Large Tracts of Land Taken From Them and Their Culture and Language Discriminated Against set up in it’s place. The heirs of those who lost land and resources will be given them back – no negotiations, no trade-offs, no mucking about at a special tribunal, just “give people their land and stuff back or we’ll call the police”.

    The downside might be the cost of a bureaucracy to ensure people aren’t discriminated against on the basis of race. Some will scream ‘PC rubbish’ but surely principles can’t be counted in dollar terms?

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  97. Francis_X (149 comments) says:

    wtfunz (100) Says:
    October 5th, 2012 at 2:42 pm – “money hungry race”?

    WTF. You’re kidding, right? History wasn’t your strong point was it, mate?

    There’s no so “money hungry” as our British mates, and they were brilliant at introducing the concept to the local natives a few hundred years ago.

    If anything, I’d say Maori learnt very well the lessns we gave them; money; land titles; chattels; etc. I say good on’em, if they can use our system to their advantage. And if some can’t cope with that, well, go whine somewhere else. Not interested in whingers.

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  98. Paul Williams (877 comments) says:

    @wtf and griff, keep waiting, I’ve got a cold beer waiting and it takes precedence… as my father once told me.

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  99. Griff (6,966 comments) says:

    Paul Williams
    =empty troll

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  100. wtfunz (133 comments) says:

    Francis_X – The X is obviously your IQ score you muppet.

    You accept they are using the system and encourage them – sign no. 1 you are from muppetville.

    You believe NZ europeans have extorted money out the NZ tax payers and citizens like this – sign no.2

    You want everyone who doesn’t agree with your warped view of this outrage to leave – sign no. 3.

    X – wit : who would support you on the dole if everyone who paid the taxes left leaving you and you supporters grazing at the money trough. Oh – thats right they are now = 1million good kiwi’s in Aussie. FFS you X rated twat.

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  101. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    “if they can use our system to their advantage”. Yes I used to advocate that in my young and foolish days. Its just I thought it went without saying …”by WORKING FOR IT”

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  102. Scott Hamilton (292 comments) says:

    John Ansell’s claim that a secret version of the TOW – the so-called Littlewood Treaty’ – has been suppressed by a conspiracy of PC academics and Maori radicals comes from Martin Doutre, a self-taught ‘researcher’ who seems to have become the intellectual giant behind the Treatygate campaign. Philosopher Matthew Dentith has posted some amusing exchanges with John Ansell on his blog, in which Ansell is confronted with evidence of Doutre’s curious beliefs:
    http://all-embracing.episto.org/2012/09/06/ansell-and-doutre/

    Ansell endorses Doutre’s belief that a race of white supermen settled NZ thousands of years ago and built an advanced civilisation, which was overrun by barbarous Maori but survives physically today in Stonehenge-like observatories hidden deep in the bush. He’s sympathetic to Doutre’s view that 9/11 was not an Al Qaeda operation but a sinister ‘inside job’, and tries his best to ignore the very clear evidence of Doutre’s Holocaust denial and anti-semitism, claiming not to have seen Doutre’s words of praise for David Irving, the pseudo-historian and neo-Nazi.

    It’s a pity that Monday’s meeting has been called off, because it would have been interesting to see Dentith or some other sceptic put Ansell on the spot in public over his intellectual debt to Doutre. I can’t see the Remers crowd being too impressed
    with conspiracy theories that made the CIA responsible for 9/11, and I’d like to think they’d have enough common sense to guffaw at Doutre and Ansell’s fairytale about an ancient white civilisation in Kiwiland.

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  103. toad (3,672 comments) says:

    Ansell is too racist for even the Remmers Rotary:

    There is no way that the Rotary Club of Remuera endorses John Ansell’s views…

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  104. Scott Hamilton (292 comments) says:

    Btw, Kevin, how did you get the figure of a trillion dollars in wealth transferred to Maori in Treaty settlements? New Zealand’s entire GDP is only about a hundred and fifty billion dollars. I think that, in your excitement, you might have been spending zeroes the way other people use exclamation marks.

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  105. Nostalgia-NZ (4,992 comments) says:

    I was wondering about the secret version of the TOW and was recalling the secret ruins to the north protected by none other than the local iwi who for some reason haven’t thought to destroy the relics that apparently undermine their present day status, Scott Hamilton seems to have put that in order.

    Griff on the other hand, in one excited breath, seems to have forgotten that many here will have observed his frequently expressed disgust of things Maori. But it must be fun for them.

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  106. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Duh, its in the 2008 report of the Race Relations Concilliator. Plain as day. The GDP of the 1990s has been handed to the iwi elite.

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  107. Reid (16,066 comments) says:

    How come those who j’accuse Ansell never ever look at the plank in their heroes’ eyes?

    Does anyone seriously think Hone, Sykes, Iti et al aren’t racist?

    Or is it because on 5 Oct 2012, they’re oppwessed and therefore, cannot be wacist because they’re merely weacting against the institutional oppwession of the wuling class? (Whom Ansell presumably represents. Perhaps you should ask him whether or not he feels he’s part of the ruling class..)

    But if it’s not that, then what the fuck makes anyone of you people who have confidently claimed above Ansell is wacist, think that? It’s just that advocating equity, one law for all etc, appawently isn’t wacist, indeed appawently, it’s justice. Whereas advocating separatism in terms of special rights and laws, as Hone, Sykes, Iti et al ACTUALLY IN FACT EVIDENTLY DO ALL THE TIME, isn’t.

    What about that, don’t those above, understand?

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  108. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    We need a broad based coallition so will have to take all comers I guess. Just because people believe nutbar things doesnt make the cause wrong.

    Bet all these rational sounding lefties and sycpophants have some skeletons in their closeted brains – eg the green wackhouts want homoepathists in hospital but still seem to get some support.

    Nah shooting the messenger just dont cut it when our childrens and grandchildrens futures are at stake.

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  109. Scott Hamilton (292 comments) says:

    I think that if John is going to use the word apartheid against his opponents, then he ought to be careful about putting material which appears to praise southern African apartheid on his blog. This post, which argues, Doutre-style, that there is a global Marxist conspiracy to destroy civilisation by promoting indigenous peoples at the expense of other groups, praises the Rhodesia of the ’60s and ’70s as an essentially good society, and laments its destruction:
    http://johnansell.wordpress.com/2012/09/19/the-oblivion-constitution/

    Quote:

    ‘Here is the imagined justification for attempting to terminate the great democratic project which, against the most implacable opposition, has been evolving in Western civilisation since the Greek/Roman age…Nothing it seems, has been learned by the vast social errors, of which Zimbabwe is only one example. The crime of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, when it was still a success story by any yardstick, was only that it was British/Western-administered and not yet perfect. Therefore, it had to be “liberated” by an alliance of Western Marxist/socialist zealots and racists, who have always been incapable of seeing the potential good in things which are not yet wholly good.’

    Whatever one thinks about the independent Zimbabwe that emerged from the Lancaster House agreement, and of the regime of Mugabe, the notion that Ian Smith’s Rhodesia, where only the white 4% of the population had the vote, and where inter-racial relationships were illegal and blacks were barred from most jobs, was a democratic success story is rather bizarre. Even the South Africans blanched at the extent of apartheid in Rhodesia, and warned Smith that such a small number of whites could not hope to wield political power indefinitely.

    If John Ansell is such a staunch opponent of apartheid, surely he shouldn’t be posting paeans to Rhodesia to his blog?

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  110. Scott Hamilton (292 comments) says:

    ‘Duh, [the fact that trillion dollars has been given to Maori] isin the 2008 report of the Race Relations Concilliator. Plain as day. The GDP of the 1990s has been handed to the iwi elite.’

    This must count as the silliest thing ever posted on the internet.

    You’re a thousand times out on your estimate – the total amount of TOW settlements so far is around a billion dollars.

    For goodness’ sake, if every government of NZ for twenty years devoted all its revenue to TOW settlements, the trillion dollars sum still wouldn’t be reached.

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  111. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    One thing to be aware of: Scott Hamilton is a chronic liar. He knows full well that I do not endorse theories of white supermen, yet he blithely states it as fact.

    I AM extremely impressed with the research of Martin Doutre on the Treaty issue.

    In fact, my initial Treatygate blog post now runs to 640 comments, many of them a debate between Doutre and Dentith, which I believe any impartial reader will see was conclusively won by Doutre: http://johnansell.wordpress.com/2012/08/12/treatygate-time-to-expose-the-con/
    All Dentith and co could provide was personal attack. Have a read and see what you think.

    Scott the Trot it was who depicted me as a lizard on his blog, then cited it somewhere else as proof that I was a shape-shifter!

    I strongly advise readers to discount everything Scott Hamilton says.

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  112. Nostalgia-NZ (4,992 comments) says:

    John Ansell 7.11

    Anybody who willingly believes that which suits his/her arguments and in the same breath wishes to discount, or re-invents a document which is in no doubt real, actual, between an existing culture and race is far behind the eight ball in my opinion. It’s a fool’s gold foundation stone, an obvious Achilles heel – but heck I can see your excited about anything that will promote your views.

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  113. Scott Hamilton (292 comments) says:

    You can discount everything I say if you like John, but you can’t so easily discount the words of Martin Doutre. Here he is again, debating his views on history back in 2008:

    ‘As for David Irving, it was gen­er­ally accep­ted world­wide that he was the most astute, pro­lific, all-round scholar and his­tor­ian on the sub­ject of WWII, at least up until May, 1988, when he made a very bad career choice. At that time he was called upon to give expert testi­mony, under oath, in a court case and stated that he could find no doc­u­mented evid­ence of “Hitler’s Final Solu­tion”. For this unfor­giv­able admis­sion, he fell foul of the Zion­ists who, there­after, focused their hatred on him and have been unre­lent­ing in try­ing to des­troy his cred­ib­il­ity ever since.’
    http://books.scoop.co.nz/2008/11/18/no-to-nazi-pseudo-history-an-open-letter/

    Matthew Dentith has repeatedly asked you why you are relying on the historical research of a man who regards a neo-Nazi and Holocaust denier like David Irving as a great historian, and who believes that Irving is the victim of a paranoid conspiracy theory involving ‘Zionists’ (ie, Jews).

    I think you should offer an answer to this question.

    And if you don’t endorse Doutre’s absurd fantasies about white supermen settling NZ thousands of years ago, you shouldn’t refer to the evidence he presents for the theory as ‘plausible’ (http://johnansell.wordpress.com/2012/08/12/treatygate-time-to-expose-the-con/#comment-3974)

    Of course you’re being silly with the lizard stuff – as anyone who reads my post can see, I was taking the mickey when I compared you to a shapeshiftin’ critter:
    http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2012/04/john-ansell-lizard-creature_9281.html

    If I were you, though, I’d check with Martin to make sure he doesn’t actually believe in David Icke’s shapeshifting lizards. He seems to go in for every other mad conspiracy theory on offer.

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  114. Viking2 (11,220 comments) says:

    The Littlewood Treaty has been well documented including its finding, where, how and how it came to be where it was. It is a exact Translation of the Maori version of the Treaty as oppossed to the current version which in not an exact copy.

    http://www.nzcpr.com/forum/search.php?keywords=littlewood+treaty&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

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  115. Scott Hamilton (292 comments) says:

    As well as speaking in support of David Irving in a well-publicised debate back in 2008, Martin Doutre has been happy to send the man a fan letter or two. Here’s a love letter from Doutre to Irving reproduced on Irving’s personal website – a letter which concludes with Doutre offering his services and his best wishes to the notorious neo-Nazi and Holocaust denier:
    http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Belsen/Doutre011103.html

    Martin Doutre is the man John Ansell is relying on for his claims about a secret ‘Littlewood’ Treaty of Waitangi which is being repressed by a sinister conspiracy. John has tried to avoid acknowledging Doutre’s involvement with neo-Nazis and Holocaust deniers by claiming that folks like Matthew Dentith and I are conspiring to distort Doutre’s views. As the letter to Irving shows, we’re not.

    So what do you think about Martin Doutre’s Holocaust denial, John? Don’t you think it rather detracts from his credentials as a ‘researcher’?

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  116. Bob R (1,354 comments) says:

    @ Scott Hamilton,

    Irving doesn’t deny the Holocaust. Do you think the late left wing jewish writer Christopher Hitchens would have been friends with him and supported his academic credentials if he did?

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  117. Nostalgia-NZ (4,992 comments) says:

    I wonder who the naughty person was that hid the “Littlewood” Treaty, obviously not somebody who could have benefited from it.

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  118. Scott Hamilton (292 comments) says:

    Bob, Irving has repeatedly denied, in print, in lectures, and in interviews, the Holocaust, and been convicted of Holocaust denial by courts in both Britain and Austria of Holocaust denial. Christopher Hitchens did not defend but rather condemned Irving:
    http://articles.latimes.com/2001/may/20/books/bk-144

    Quote:
    ‘a “school,” by which I mean the movement of “Holocaust denial” or (because it consists of two contrasting tendencies) “Holocaust revisionism.” This movement contains some Nazi revivalists in Germany and elsewhere, some crackpots and conspiracy theorists and one practicing historian, an Englishman named David Irving.’

    John Ansell has made it clear that Martin Doutre is a key intellectual architect of the Treatygate campaign. Here’s what he said during his debate with Matthew Dentith:

    ‘Over the past year, I’ve read a lot of Martin’s writing. I’ve prod­ded and poked at him on a few occa­sions when some explan­a­tion didn’t quite gel. And yet he’s always come up trumps. I’ve never failed to be impressed by the depth and breadth and robust­ness of his knowledge. I’m very happy to stand with Mar­tin, just as I was once proud to stand with Roger Douglas.’
    http://johnansell.wordpress.com/2012/08/12/treatygate-time-to-expose-the-con/#comment-3735

    I support John’s right to promote Doutre’s strange views about the past, but I don’t blame the Remers bowls club for not wanting to host him.

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  119. big bruv (13,454 comments) says:

    Toad

    “Ansell is too racist for even the Remmers Rotary”

    Would you say the same about Hone?

    Or can only white people be racist.

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  120. Redbaiter (7,852 comments) says:

    I endorse John Ansell’s opinions on Scott Hamilton’s lack of personal integrity.

    His blog contains fake comments from Redbaiter that I suspect Hamilton wrote himself. If he did not write them he knows they are fake.

    No one with any self respect would take part in such a cowardly deceit, let alone be as proud of it as Hamilton seems to be.

    Hamilton therefore IMHO is nobody to be questioning anyone else’s integrity.

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  121. Griff (6,966 comments) says:

    isn’t it strange if you want a democratic state with no special rights given on the grounds of race the leftys call you racist
    if you label separate development as apartheid they tell you you can not use that word even though that is the words meaning
    They don’t like it if you use the word holocaust to describe the killing of entire tribes the displacement of half the population and the slaughter of 25% of an entire people and the enslavement of another 25% yet use the same word to describe one small villages deconstruction with no resulting fatalities

    Fucken Marxist deliberate word manipulation.

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  122. toad (3,672 comments) says:

    @big bruv 8:32 pm

    “Ansell is too racist for even the Remmers Rotary” Would you say the same about Hone?

    Nah, Hone is a mate of mine!

    More seriously, racism is about power as well as prejudice. Hone can say anything he likes, but at the end of the day does not have the power to enforce it.

    But if Brash had won the 2005 election, he would have had the power to do untold detriment to Maori – even more than Clark did by passing the racist Foreshore and Seabed Act that extinguished the right of Maori to go to Court to establish common law ownership of foreshore and seabed.

    So much for you guys on the right being champions of property rights!

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  123. Reid (16,066 comments) says:

    More seriously, racism is about power as well as prejudice. Hone can say anything he likes, but at the end of the day does not have the power to enforce it.

    He’s got as much power as any one of us toad. In fact since he’s elected he’s got much more than you and I.

    It’s called democracy. It’s free to everyone. As proved by Hone.

    So what don’t you get about that?

    You seem to be saying Hone should have more power than any one of us. Surely not. Do you know what that’s called? It starts with “r.”

    At least what you lefties keep telling us. So am I wrong? Pray tell if so correct me where toad.

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  124. Griff (6,966 comments) says:

    “racism is about power” Biggest load of socialist bullshit yet invented. According to your definition White supremacists like kyle and his mates are not racist as they have no power ! Fuck off with your spin toad the word is not about power it does not differentiate just because you support one cause or the other its still racist to grant spectral privilege or ability based only on ethnic identity.

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  125. publicwatchdog (2,225 comments) says:

    Oh dear – seems like this arguably diversionary attempt to help take the heat off shonky John Key and his ‘economic apartheid’ has had a wee setback?

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/rotary-pulls-plug-john-ansells-colourblind-launch-ja-130252

    bugger.

    Was SO looking forward displaying some banners outside this meeting :(

    ‘Give a grrl a banner’ – http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

    What do you think John Ansell?

    Do you think the ‘morph’ of Don Brash into Mr Burns from the Simpsons was an image that stuck with voters and helped Don being ‘gone by lunchtime’ after the 2011 election?

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.pennybright4epsom.org.nz

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  126. toad (3,672 comments) says:

    @Reid 9:54 pm

    Hone Harawira is one MP in a Parliament of 121.

    That gives him no political power at all, unless his vote is necessary for the survival of a Government (as the vote of the corrupt John Banks currently is).

    Harawira and Banks both lead one-MP parties. Are you really suggesting Harawira has as much power as Banks – who imo should be in prison rather than Parliament by now?

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  127. Nostalgia-NZ (4,992 comments) says:

    Griff:

    ‘spectral privilege’

    surely the next words should be ‘far out man?’

    Do you feel like falling asleep Griff, when someone makes a point about saying Hone, or John are racists?
    Really, when you think about it, they’re sort of mates by popular account.

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  128. Griff (6,966 comments) says:

    answer toad if power or lack of defines racism is kyle Chapman racist? his view has no support except among 200 skinheads. Or is it just because he is white that he is racist?

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  129. grumpyoldhori (2,412 comments) says:

    Falafulu Fisi my dear boy, are you arguing to go back before the treaty was signed, yep we Maori would love that as you suggest above we OWNED ALL of NZ.
    So be careful of what you wish for.

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  130. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Like Reid’s post above, Ansell’s case rests upon misframing reality. Interestingly, affirmative action as a redress for past wrongs is going to be considered again by the US Supreme Court in its current session, which goes to show how contentious an issue it is. Of course, it’s natural for those with the power to seek to consolidate that power and continue to oppress those who were exploitated, and suffered terribly in the process, in the quest for their currrent riches.

    As regards all the nonsense about separate development, reverse apartheid, whatever, what is on display is a deep ignorance of the modern notion of autonomy. Autonomy for indigenous peoples, but within a recognised nation state, is in place in many parts of the world and works well. Many other indigenous peoples are striving for that reality for themselves as Tuhoe, especially, will continue to do until they deservedly succeed.

    So, the most despicable misframing is Ansell’s appeal to colour prejudice. Colour is irrelevant to treaty settlements. The claims would be just as valid if Maori were white. By framing the issue Ansell is so worried about as an issue pertaining to colour, Ansell is appealing to racism. Does that make him racist or merely misguided and/or ignorant? Or all three?

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  131. Griff (6,966 comments) says:

    nostalgia bye bye rip the dick

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  132. Nostalgia-NZ (4,992 comments) says:

    Well done griff, go from lectures to one liners.
    Excellent work.

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  133. Bob R (1,354 comments) says:

    ***Many other indigenous peoples are striving for that reality for themselves as Tuhoe, especially, will continue to do until they deservedly succeed.***

    And the British National Party :)

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  134. Bob R (1,354 comments) says:

    ***More seriously, racism is about power as well as prejudice. ***

    Please spare us the cultural marxist nonsense Toad.

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  135. Johnboy (15,410 comments) says:

    The Wellie Murri’s thought THEY owned Poneke till Te Rauparaha turned up Grumpy!

    So be careful of what you wish for. :)

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  136. grumpyoldhori (2,412 comments) says:

    Johnboy Te Rauparaha that wimp, the Wellie horis were lucky my mob did not turn up to do a bit of grilling.

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  137. bhudson (4,736 comments) says:

    @Johnboy,

    He was welcomed with open arms Johnboy. Had to have been – I used to walk across his park everyday on the way to school.

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  138. Johnboy (15,410 comments) says:

    Thank Christ we Pakeha turned up to instil a bit of law and fair dealing among you benighted savages then Grumpy! :)

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  139. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    Haven’t read this thread lately, so it may have been covered, but Remuera Rotary have broken their agreement with me and cancelled the meeting: http://johnansell.wordpress.com/2012/10/05/remuera-rotary-cancels-meeting-and-misrepresents-me/

    Finding people with the courage to stand up for racial equality was always going to be hard in this nation of wimps.

    However, I’m going to turn the setback into an opportunity and try and find a bigger venue to cater for the many who want to come – all help gratefully appreciated.

    Will be happy to eyeball Dentith, who, like Hamilton, relies solely on personal attack and diversionary tactics, such as guilt by association.

    Note how obsessed the Marxist Hamilton is with Martin Doutre. That’s because he knows that Martin knows his stuff. Whatever he believes about other issues, I’ve found him most reliable on this issue, as I have lots of others to compare his conclusions with – including the resources of Wellington Library.

    Rarely do his critics ever back their criticism with any evidence. Even when they wheel up a so-called expert, he repels their ‘evidence’ too.

    To correct another of the many Hamilton casual and constant lies, Doutre is not my main source of knowledge on Treaty matters.

    He is one of many, including David Round, Mike Butler, John Robinson, Elizabeth Rata, Jean Jackson, Christine Fitzgerald (the great granddaughter of Rev Henry Williams who translated Hobson’s recently discovered final draft into Te Tiriti) and Bruce Moon.

    They tend to use source documents from the period in question, as opposed to submitting to the indoctrination of our so-called professional historians, who reflexively dismiss the nineteenth and early twentieth century historians (men like James Cowan who lived the history, or interviewed those who did) as ‘Anglocentric’ and therefore to be dismissed.

    Anything ‘Anglo’ is poison to these fantasists, such is their contempt for their own cultural inheritance.

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  140. Paul Williams (877 comments) says:

    Haven’t read this thread lately, so it may have been covered, but Remuera Rotary have broken their agreement with me and cancelled the meeting:

    Jaysus, even the leafy, comfortable people of gentle Remmers think you’re an awkward guest. We could all be wrong John. Then again, it could be you?

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  141. Scott Hamilton (292 comments) says:

    John Ansell once again throws his support behind Martin Doutre, saying that Martin ‘knows his stuff’.

    I suppose that’s as close as John is going to get to answering the question about what he thinks of Martin Doutre’s repeated statements of Holocaust denial and of support for the neo-Nazi historian David Irving, some of which I posted upthread.

    As Matthew Dentith notes, John’s already explicitly sympathised with Doutre’s claims about an ancient white race inhabiting New Zealand, and his claims that 9/11 was an inside job (http://all-embracing.episto.org/2012/09/11/ansell-and-doutre-part-ii/).

    I guess John hasn’t got much more credibility to lose by turning a blind eye to Doutre’s Holocaust denial.

    Here’s a tip, John: the next time you launch a campaign which claims to be about racial equality, don’t make a Holocaust denier and admirer of David Irving the intellectual frontman for it. Posting articles which praise apartheid Rhodesia on your blog might not be such a good idea either.

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  142. Paul Williams (877 comments) says:

    Alternative venues for Ansell’s colourblind launch:

    Invercargill
    Alan Jones’s place
    A wardrobe…

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  143. Scott Hamilton (292 comments) says:

    The Mangere Arts Centre is great – I was out there last week for a Tongan festival. They call it the Louvre of the Pacific…

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  144. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    John Ansell, it is abosolutely essential that no neo fascist, white supremist or religious fundie crap subverts this cause. We need a broad basse including maori and all races in NZ. the iwi elite are busy spending their tillion dollars on sucking up to left wing groups, other races and groups like the scientologists. to the point where they are tying to admit “honorary Maori”.

    Yes One trillion dollars in assets and money has been tranferred. Its a fact. Read the reports. The give away in money alone is over one billion doallrs per annum so how can the total only be one billion. Please credit fellow readers with some brains. Because of the Trillion dollar assetn and money transfer fixed contracts to lease the assets back by the crown so that you can take your sorry arse into courts, police stations, national parks and elsewhere are in the billions of dollars alone.

    Billions of dollars of fixed, monopolistic government contracts per year – sound familiar – we used to call it feudalism. Now its (neo) tribal capatilsm. Wake TF up NZ.

    SH you dont believe it because you dont want to believe it because your are Iwi or a syncohantic white with an overdose of anglo saxon guilt – oh how dare we do this to this noble race bs. Wake TF up.

    John Ansell – get thee urban Maoris on side – and try an advertising campaign in Australia where hundreds of thousand have fled the iwi elite. Some we need to tell the average maori they are being used by the Iwi elite and that they need not be ashamed by what the iwi rats have done.

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  145. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Read the Politics of Conformity in NZ by Elizabeth Rata – the rotary have been gotten to. Democracy is dead.

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  146. Scott Hamilton (292 comments) says:

    ‘Yes One trillion dollars in assets and money has been tranferred. Its a fact. Read the reports.’

    You need to sort out your zeroes Kevin. There isn’t a trillion dollars in New Zealand to give away. As I said GDP per annum is about one hundred and fifty billion, government revenue a fraction of that. You’re talking obvious nonsense.

    But let’s have some details on these reports. A name and a page number will do. And please don’t send us to a page at Martin Doutre’s website.

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  147. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    http://www.hrc.co.nz/2012/a-fair-go-for-all-in-aotearoa
    Close it down national you are just funding an enormous trough of far left wing politcal activism. Look at the HRC website – do you national idiots actually know what is going on?

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  148. Scott Hamilton (292 comments) says:

    Is that page supposed to be a reference, Kevin? I can’t find any figures in it, let alone a trillion dollars, just a bunch of waffle from the Human Rights Commission.

    Where are the reports which state that a trillion dollars has been given to Maori in Treaty settlement?

    You’re as bad as John Ansell at answering a straight question.

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  149. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    ONE TRILLION DOLLARS by 2008 = annual report. Fact.

    “To date $1,018,697 million has been committed to final and comprehensive settlements and several part settlements. This includes $19.846 million paid as claimant funding separate from the negotiated settlement redress. ”

    http://www.hrc.co.nz/hrc_new/hrc/cms/files/documents/14-Oct-2009_14-20-09_Race_Relations_in_2008_HTML.html

    Any idiot can see that more than one billion dollars per annum is transferred to the iwi in new cash payments alone. So there is no decimal point error bullshit.

    Read it and sob. The entire GDP of the 1990s transferred to a small band of born again iwi elitists. How can we fight that?

    Even left wing organisations are getting upset about it.

    Your children are poor because they (iwi elite ant their clingons) are rich, end of story. No ifs no buts.

    Stop insulting the intelligence of people here.

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  150. Scott Hamilton (292 comments) says:

    That’s a billion dollars, not a trillion, Kevin, in TOW settlements. Like I say, you need to sort your zeroes out. And get a rudimentary idea of the size of the NZ GDP and government budgets.

    For goodness’ sake, even major iwi like Waikato got settlements well short of a billion – I think Waikato got about 70 million.
    Kai Tahu got a couple of hundred million. Which iwi do you think got hundreds of billions of dollars, and why didn’t we hear about it?

    ‘Any idiot can see that more than one billion dollars per annum is transferred to the iwi in new cash payments alone’

    How on earth does this happen? Are you saying there’s a new settlement every year with iwi worth a billion or so? Are you trying to talk about interest on the sums that iwi got? The growth of their funds due to investments and so on? Since they only got sums of a few score or hundred million originally, there’s no way they’re making a billion a year.

    ‘Stop insulting the intelligence of people here.’

    You’re honestly the only person I’ve heard talking of a trillion dollars in TOW settlements. There’s a reason for that. Go back and take a look at that figure.

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  151. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    toad (3,439) Says:

    More seriously, racism is about power as well as prejudice. Hone can say anything he likes, but at the end of the day does not have the power to enforce it.

    But if Brash had won the 2005 election, he would have had the power to do untold detriment to Maori – even more than Clark did by passing the racist Foreshore and Seabed Act that extinguished the right of Maori to go to Court to establish common law ownership of foreshore and seabed.

    So much for you guys on the right being champions of property rights!
    ………………..
    So much for the Greens championing the commons Toad.
    http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2010/05/taking-greens-seriously.html

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  152. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    errr $1,018,697 million = ONE TRILLION DOLLARS.

    There are a hell of a lot more claims than the small ones that the public hears about.

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  153. Scott Hamilton (292 comments) says:

    Kevin, here’s the NZCPR – the folks who support Ansell – giving the TOW settlements figure to September 2012 (not 2012) as one and a half billion, not a trillion.

    http://www.nzcpr.com/Weekly344.pdf

    OK?

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  154. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    So you admit theyve had more than a billion? Actually more than a billion per annum as you have just shown and thats just cash.

    ONE TRILLION DOLLARS and climbing. Has a nice ring to it.

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  155. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    Scott Hamilton, Luc Hansen and Toad

    Anton Blank: More than half of the 230,000 children living below the poverty line are Maori and Pacifica and in 20 years they will make up 60% of NZ’s children. …
    http://www.3news.co.nz/Default.aspx?TabId=367&articleID=270416&ce8273=1#

    as you see a high birth rate is a factor in child poverty for Pacifica and Maori children. Does this not reflect on the appropriateness of culture?

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  156. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    WEhat a scam, there are no whjere near that number of children living in poverty and most of the maori would only average 1/4 Maori by fraction of ethnicity. that means the vast majority of maori poor or inprison are actually other ethnicities in prison.

    Dont perpetuate this MSM scam that originates froim the iwi elite to keep their power base, its bullshit.

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  157. Scott Hamilton (292 comments) says:

    Oh dear. No Kevin, a billion and a half in total in TOW settlements altogether, according to NZCPR.

    Look: if a billion dollars went in settlements this year, who got them?

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  158. Scott Hamilton (292 comments) says:

    Here’s a TV 3 story from September about TOW settlements passing a billion bucks. Where’s the other 999 billion, Kevin? And why don’t your mates John and the NZCPR know about it?

    Treaty payments total more than $1 billion
    Wed, 12 Sep 2012 6:11p.m.

    The original Treaty of Waitangi text
    By Patrick Gower

    Treaty of Waitangi payments will now total more than $1 billion dollars due to the Tuhoe settlement.

    That means many more millions will be paid to some tribes that already have settlements.

    Tainui signed its Treaty deal with the Queen in 1996 and got a $170 million payout. Ngai Tahu followed a year later with another $170 million.

    Now Tuhoe have the same amount.

    The Government confirmed that will take the total in treaty payments to over $1 billion, and that actually means Tainui and Ngai Tahu will get paid even more – triggering what’s called a “relativity clause”.

    Treaty Negotiations Minister Chris Finlayson says it is not that interesting.

    “Oh it’s definitely going to be triggered, but again there’s no scoop in that that needs to be released by TV3.”

    In summary:

    The $1 billion treaty total enacts the top-up clause
    Tainui gets 17 percent and Ngai Tahu 16.1 percent of all future payments
    For example, every $100 million paid out to other tribes from now on, Tainui get another $17 million and Ngai Tahu get $16.1 million
    New Zealand First leader Winston Peters says it was unexpected.

    “The answer is – no you would not expect that – but it looks like that is what’s going to be triggered now.”

    Tuhoe’s deal has pleased its people, including Tame Iti, who relayed this tweet to family members from jail: “Tuhoe live in Te Urewera, we are part of its history. It makes sense that we now part of its future.”

    It includes a concept called mana motuhake, which is Tuhoe control of Government services it hopes will lead to independence.

    “If we are going down a path of separate development, separate institutions, separate governance – then all I can see is a long-term disaster – first for Maori, and then for the rest of us,” Mr Peters says.

    It’s a unique arrangement, but tribes who have already settled will not get a chance to re-negotiate.

    While Tuhoe gave up on its bottom line of total control of Te Urewera, 3 News has learned it did well financially. A Government spokesperson says the $170 million payout was about $50 million more than the last offer on the table.

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  159. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    Scott Hamilton (188) Says:
    Kevin, here’s the NZCPR – the folks who support Ansell – giving the TOW settlements figure to September 2012 (not 2012) as one and a half billion, not a trillion.
    ….
    and as I pointed out above Tariana Turia says her tribe has only got 1.5% of what was taken so there’s a whole lot more to come. That’s the sort of stuff to make the racial masochists (Scott Hamilton, Toad, Luc Hansen) salivate.

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  160. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    In just the 2008 year they got $400 mil just in Cash. You can read through the racist relations commissioner reports and add it all up and it comes to way more than one billion so you and the tv3 sycophants have it wrong.

    Well over one trillion dollars has now been committed in cash and assets to this round of full and final treaty settlements.

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  161. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Hi don’t they have children. Their children are poor because the iwi elite are rich. Oh no they’re trough feeders, that’s right.

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  162. Scott Hamilton (292 comments) says:

    ‘In just the 2008 year they got $400 mil just in Cash’

    Who is ‘they’ Kevin? I thought a bunch of central North Island tribes got some forests worth a couple of hundred million back that year.

    Who got these extra cash settlements? What are the name of the tribes, and where’s the details of the settlements?

    ‘Well over one trillion dollars has now been committed in cash and assets to this round of full and final treaty settlements.’

    Does it worry you at all that you are the only person in the whole wide world to believe this nonsense? Haven’t you worked out the size of the NZ economy yet? Why not just say Maori have been given the moon?

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  163. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    The forests are additional. How much would iwi get if they sold them to china.?

    Just troll through the RRC and Waitangi tribunal reports. Your good at that. You’ll quickly see your numbers don’t add up.

    ONE TRILLION DOLLARS and that doesn’t include the beaches.

    No wonder iwi are the only other NZ organisation that can deal directly with China.

    Wake up New Zealand.

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  164. Scott Hamilton (292 comments) says:

    ‘Just troll through the RRC and Waitangi tribunal reports’

    Tribunal reports don’t include settlement figures – they’re about the history behind claims and they’re preparatory to negotiations.

    You really have no idea what you’re talking about do you?

    I’ll help you out and supply a list of settlements. Which ‘secret’ settlements do you know about which aren’t on this list, and which are worth in the order of 999 billion bucks?

    Fisheries (known as the “Sealord” deal) 1992 170,000,000 Treaty of Waitangi (Fisheries Claims) Settlement Act 1992[13]
    Ngati Rangiteaorere 1993 760,000 Reserves and Other Lands Disposal Act 1993[14][verification needed]
    Hauai 1993 715,682 Reserves and Other Lands Disposal Act 1995[15]
    Ngati Whakaue 1994 5,210,000
    Waikato – Tainui Raupatu 1995 170,000,000 Waikato Raupatu Claims Settlement Act 1995[16]
    Waimakuku 1995 375,000
    Rotoma 1996 43,931
    Te Maunga 1996 129,032
    Ngai Tahu 1997 170,000,000 Ngāi Tahu Claims Settlement Act 1998[17]
    Ngati Turangitukua 1998 5,000,000 Ngāti Tūrangitukua Claims Settlement Act 1999[18]
    Pouakani 1999 2,000,000 Pouakani Claims Settlement Act 2000[19]
    Te Uri o Hau 2000 15,600,000 Te Uri o Hau Claims Settlement Act 2002[20]
    Ngati Ruanui 2001 41,000,000 Ngati Ruanui Claims Settlement Act 2003[21]
    Ngati Tama 2001 14,500,000 Ngati Tama Claims Settlement Act 2003[22]
    Ngati Awa (including ancillary claims) 2003 43,390,000 Ngāti Awa Claims Settlement Act 2005[23]
    Ngati Tuwharetoa (Bay of Plenty) 2003 10,500,000 Ngāti Tuwharetoa (Bay of Plenty) Claims Settlement Act 2005[24]
    Nga Rauru Kitahi 2003 31,000,000
    Te Arawa (Lakes) 2004 2,700,000 Te Arawa Lakes Settlement Act 2006[25]
    Ngati Mutunga 2005 14,900,000 Ngāti Mutunga Claims Settlement Act 2006[26]
    Te Roroa 2005 9,500,000 Te Roroa Claims Settlement Act 2008[27]
    Te Arawa Affiliate Iwi and Hapu 2008 38,600,000 Affiliate Te Arawa Iwi and Hapu Claims Settlement Act 2008[28]
    Central North Island Forests Iwi Collective (Known as the “Treelords” deal)[29] 2008 161,000,000 Central North Island Forests Land Collective Settlement Act 2008[30]
    Taranaki Whanui ki Te Upoko o Te Ika 2008 45,159,000 Port Nicholson Block (Taranaki Whānui ki Te Upoko o Te Ika) Claims Settlement Act 2009[31]
    Waikato-Tainui Raupatu Claims (Waikato River) Settlement Act 2010[32]
    Ngāti Apa (North Island) Claims Settlement Act 2010[33]
    Whanganui Iwi (Whanganui (Kaitoke) Prison and Northern Part of Whanganui Forest) On-account Settlement Act 2011[34]
    Ngāti Manawa Claims Settlement Act 2012[35]
    Ngāti Whare Claims Settlement Act 2012[36]
    Ngāti Pāhauwera Treaty Claims Settlement Act 2012[37]
    Ngati Porou Claims Settlement Act 2012[38]
    Maraeroa A and B Blocks Claims Settlement Act 2012[39]
    Ngāti Mākino Claims Settlement Act 2012[40]
    Rongowhakaata Claims Settlement Act 2012[41]
    Ngai Tāmanuhiri Claims Settlement Act 2012[42]

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  165. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Your numbers don’t add up. Even you are not stupid enough to think that the central forests are only worth $161 mil if they sold to the Chinese or iwi fishing quotas only worth 170 mil if they sold to the Koreans or Russians.

    Since your not that stupid, no one else here is so stop insulting their intelligence.

    One trillion dollars in finance and assets. Buys a lot of political power doesn’t it. Keys to pms office….not priceless.

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  166. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    Scott Hamilton, Luc Hansen, Toad and his “Greens” believe all cultures are equal. Ours has been corrupted through capitalism. The treaty is a way to (as Catherine Delahunty put it) “renegotiate”. They know they make no progress through the ballot box (Catherine Delahunty calls it “democratied”) so they aim to bring the state to it’s knees with Comrade Hone, Tame and Annette in charge (for Maori) and some wanker from the Greens representing Pakeha.

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  167. Nostalgia-NZ (4,992 comments) says:

    That was all a bit of fun. The great invasion turned out to be a fart in a teacup,

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  168. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Don’t forget all the iwi elite names who are driving the radicals from behind the scenes.

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  169. ford98 (1 comment) says:

    At last somebody is showing some some sense. There are a lot of you out there that seem in favour of Maori running the show. I am totally in favour of New Zealand for New Zealanders including the maori people who should be classed as kiwis one and all. When we stop these treary payments which results in a lot of money being given to few then perhaps the country will be able to go forward.

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  170. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    toad (3,439) Says:

    More seriously, racism is about power as well as prejudice. Hone can say anything he likes, but at the end of the day does not have the power to enforce it.

    But if Brash had won the 2005 election, he would have had the power to do untold detriment to Maori – even more than Clark did by passing the racist Foreshore and Seabed Act that extinguished the right of Maori to go to Court to establish common law ownership of foreshore and seabed.

    So much for you guys on the right being champions of property rights!
    …..
    Elizabeth Rata argues (on NZCPR site) :

    According to the nineteenth century legal historian, F W. Maitland, the foundational group or tribe or clan is not, and has never been, part of the English constitution, even in Anglo-Saxon times. Maitland found that individualism, not foundational grouping, was the distinguishing characteristic of Anglo-Saxon legal, economic, and political relations. This means that English Common Law did not apply to foundational groups.

    ‘Maitland had shown that not all civilisations had started in a world where individuals were embedded within the community, where contract was entirely subordinate to status, and where hierarchy and patriarchy were universal.’ (Macfarlane, 2002, p. 83). Individuals and associations of individuals were recognised in various forms of contract at the beginning of the development of English common law. It is the individual (in these various forms of contractual trusts and associations), not the indivisible kin-group, which is the basis of that law.
    http://www.nzcpr.com/guest305.htm

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  171. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    Appeal to antiquity:

    The second strategy that has proved invaluable for iwi success is the hugely effective use of legal language and procedures. This has served to embed the idea that iwi ambitions are true and just. It makes good use of New Zealanders’ right and proper respect for the law. However that respect has a less healthy side. It can produce a uncritical acceptance of ideas that use the weight of legalese. Some words have gained an unearned respect and their use can stop people identifying and criticising the political interests that are promoted in legal arguments using those words. ‘Common Law’, ‘Customary Law’, and ‘English Common Law’ are regularly used by iwi for this reason. It pulls the wool over our eyes.

    However iwi are in a long tradition of elites using this legal antiquity strategy for their political ends. In the 18th Century Edmund Burke referred to the ‘powerful prepossession towards antiquity, [in] the minds of all our lawyers and legislators and all of the people whom they wish to influence’. (Burke, cited in Hampsher-Monk, 1992, p.267).

    ‘The English Common law argument – used politically since the early seventeenth century – states that since precedent has always prevailed in English legal practice, our law, including our constitutional law, must be immemorial, or at least derived from ever more ancient models.’ It is ‘not the fact that the English constitution, as it now stands, actually is as old as is claimed, that is the point; it may not even be true. The important point is the propensity of the English to claim their rights by appealing – rightly or wrongly – to past practice. We justify our rights not on abstract principles “as the rights of men”, but as the rights of Englishmen, and as a patrimony derived from their forefathers. Justification through appeals to antiquity – whether historically tenable or not – are part of English political culture.’ (Hampsher-Monk, 1992, p. 266).

    We New Zealanders do the same. The following quotation from Eddie Durie provides an excellent example of this appeal to antiquity to justify present-day political interests. (The quotation also shows his advocacy for judicial activism and a corresponding disdain for Parliament’s supremacy.) In encouraging ‘judge-made constitutional development’, Durie argues that ‘the concepts of domestic dependent nations, aboriginal autonomy, aboriginal rights and treaty partnership are all from the bench over a period of about 170 years. They turn in effect to principles tracing back to the 15th century’ (E. Durie, 2005).
    http://www.nzcpr.com/guest305.htm

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  172. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    Nostalgia-NZ (1,367) Says:
    October 6th, 2012 at 11:41 am

    That was all a bit of fun. The great invasion turned out to be a fart in a teacup,
    ….
    you won a battle (a couple of points) but you wont win the war.

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