General Debate 17 October 2012

October 17th, 2012 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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161 Responses to “General Debate 17 October 2012”

  1. Griff (7,808 comments) says:

    Another barometer of the economy is showing signs of declining activity, with volumes of trucks and cars on our roads falling in September.

    ANZ’s TruckOmeter measures the volumes of traffic on key roads across New Zealand, as a guide to future activity.

    The bank said today that its heavy track index, which measures vehicles weighing more than 3.5 tonnes on 11 roads, fell a seasonally adjusted 5.3 per cent in September. The fall undid gains in the previous month, and is now at the lowest level since July 11.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/7822458/Declining-traffic-bad-for-the-economy

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  2. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    Hone Harawira appears in court today, following the Glen Innes protest.

    And I look forward to reading the reports of Penny Bright standing outside court loudly demanding “One law for all!!!”. After all, why should someone in a privileged position, earning a big salary, who gets to drive around in a flash car, paid for by us the poor taxpayer, get away with breaking the law?

    Yes, I’m confident that Penny will be there demanding “One law for all!!!”. :)

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  3. tom hunter (4,894 comments) says:

    Yesterday I linked to a piece where the Germans have revealed old Stasi intelligence showing that Castro had got former members of Nazi death squads into Cuba during the 1962 Missile Crisis. Ye old Far-Lefter Luc Hansen rather went off about this as well as having a general spray. Since we had friends around last night I did not get a chance to write a reply – so here it is for today’s GD.

    Your friend Noam, since you mention him so often, provides a balanced assessment of the Cuban missile crisis here:

    But no mention of the Nazi death squad members that Castro paid to help him – or Castro “urging” Moscow to make a preemptive nuclear strike on US installations.

    In other words, the usual Chomsky “balance” that focuses exclusively on the evils of the USA. Ho hum. Revisionist history is hard.

    Anyway, I thought it was you who was the big follower of the US-as-the-Nazis Noam, given the occasions you have proudly written of settling down to read his latest tomb.?

    Oh well. International Socialists joining hands with National Socialists once more: the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact all over again.

    As far as the lessor evil that is Paul Krugman is concerned:

    He says deficit reduction can come later, which it can.

    O my god – he’s channeling Dick Cheney channeling Reagan who proved that deficits don’t matter. Cool!

    As it happens that’s what the Greeks also believed as their debt/GDP ration hit 100%, as with Japan. The result is that both are now too strapped to grow their economies enough to pay down the debt, which is why Japan is at now at 200% for debt/GDP, with internal groups like pension funds unwilling to buy more government debt and even starting to sell it down to meet their obligations. Bug – meet windshield.

    Now, the US and UK (French voters at least chucked out Sarkozy) needs to worry less about debt and more about growth.

    In light of your previous sentence boasting of Cullen running budget surpluses during boom times – the flip-side of Keynes’s theory – your following comment on the US, UK and France is not even coherent.

    I thought you were about to launch into a critique about how they’d done the opposite – which would be true. But it’s also precisely why they do have to worry more about debt and less about growth now. Debt is yet another of the boundary conditions of Keynesian theory that its followers refuse to acknowledge: deficits indeed “don’t matter” – when total debt is low. A debt/GDP ratio of 100% plus does not meet that standard, even less so when the actual quantity involved is $16 trillion and there’s nobody else big enough to bail you out.

    But it’s not Krugman’s woeful Keynesianism that is the real problem here, it’s his mendacity:

    Like accusing him of having two views on deficit reductions when the two views relate to entirely different circumstances.

    In the early double 00’s the US has a recession, huge deficits and several trillion in debt and the Bush tax cuts – and Krugman goes off about how terrible deficits are. In the early 2010’s the US has a recession, deficits more than three times as large and $11 trillion, now $16 trillion in debt, with those same tax rates in place – and Krugman is “sanguine” about the deficits.

    The only thing that’s entirely different about those circumstances is that the former had a President with an (R) after his name and the latter has one with a (D).

    If it were only this one example Krugman might be able to get away with this – but he’s got a track record over many years of pulling these stunts on economic issues aside from the deficit. His extreme partisanship has led him to make a fool of himself, as his own editor at the NYT noted. But there’s one other thing about him that has caused him to facepalm and it was noted by Daniel Henninger in the WSJ the other day about top officials in the Obama campaign now blatantly calling Romney a liar. Henninger pointed out that this used to be a serious and rare charge, that politicians have always had legitimate ways way to imply it (“How Can We Trust Mitt Romney?”), and that is likely to either flop or even backfire. But he then went to point out the types of people who fling that word around:

    The Obama campaign’s resurrection of “liar” as a political tool is odious because it has such a repellent pedigree. It dates to the sleazy world of fascist and totalitarian propaganda in the 1930s. It was part of the milieu of stooges, show trials and dupes. These were people willing to say anything to defeat their opposition. Denouncing people as liars was at the center of it. The idea was never to elevate political debate but to debauch it.

    The purpose of calling someone a liar then was not merely to refute their ideas or arguments. It was to nullify them, to eliminate them from participation in politics.

    Which brings us back to the Castro and Nazis. And someone else as well:

    How did it happen that an accusation once confined to the lowest, whiskey-soaked level of politics or rank propaganda campaigns is occurring daily in American politics?

    No one has worked harder to revive this low-rent tactic than New York Times columnist Paul Krugman. To my knowledge, Mr. Krugman is the only columnist writing for a major publication in U.S. journalism who has so routinely and repetitively accused people of being liars.

    A purveyor of an economic theory that perfectly fits the Left-wing idea of government that spends ever more and grows ever larger in our lives. Also a man who regularly indulges in a practice that was part of the milieu of stooges, show trials and dupes, involving people willing to say anything to defeat their opposition and whose aim was never to elevate political debate but to debauch it in the manner of the sleazy world of fascist and totalitarian propaganda in the 1930s.

    The Eric Hobsbawm of economics: the perfect fit for Luc Hansen.

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  4. Griff (7,808 comments) says:

    graham
    You seem to have developed a infatuation with ms Tarnish. let it go mate she is a fallen woman and will bring you nothing but pain

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  5. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    a bit like gruff’s infatuation with “conservonutters” (whatever that is). Let it go “mate”.

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  6. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Graham the chances of some social engineering judge (seeking to engraciate him/herself onto a higher judical gravy train) finding against Harawira are negligible.

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  7. Keeping Stock (10,342 comments) says:

    Winston Peters hasn’t even been back in Parliament for a year, and yet he has managed to get ejected from the debating chamber three times, and his conduct yesterday was disgraceful. So is it time for a Three Strikes law for MP’s? Maybe if an MP gets ejected from the House three times during the life of that Parliament, he/she automatically gets named and has to face the prospect of a proper sanction.

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2012/10/do-we-need-another-three-strikes-law.html

    As it was, Lockwood Smith would have been well within his rights to name Peters yesterday anyway, having twice warned him after he had kicked Peters out and Peters continued to argue. He may be the Right Honourable Winston Peters, but his behaviour yesterday was neither right nor honourable.

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  8. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    A conspiracy theory: is the Messiah one of them?
    http://www.dianawest.net/Home/tabid/36/EntryId/2262/POTUS-Ring-There-is-no-God-but-Allah.aspx

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  9. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Another barometer of the economy is showing signs of declining activity, with volumes of trucks and cars on our roads falling in September.

    Think of all that co2 not being liberated back into the atmosphere (where it came from) Griff !

    Now if we can only stop cows farting! ( not sure about the vast herds of farting animals in Africa, I think it is only white peoples animals that do it.)

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  10. Elaycee (4,393 comments) says:

    graham:

    Yes, I’m confident that Penny will be there demanding “One law for all!!!”

    Fat chance. You’d get better odds seeing a pterodactyl at the bottom of your garden.

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  11. Fletch (6,408 comments) says:

    Big uproar at the Vatican after a Cardinal showed this 2008 video about Muslim Demographics.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

    The numbers are pretty much correct though from what I’ve been able to find.
    Western Civilisation is dying, and can’t sustain itself with the low numbers of births we’re having.

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  12. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    I wouldn’t describe it as an infatuation Griff, more a fascination, in the same way that Sally and Jamie Ridge seem to fascinate some people. :)

    But yes, you are right. I do need to let go of that. I have (somewhat belatedly) come to the realisation that there is truly no point in debating with her, for a number of reasons which I think we all understand.

    EDIT: Actually, thinking about it, she probably has about as much relevance to the average New Zealander as The Ridges.

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  13. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    A hell of a lot at stake today: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2218635/Senior-Romney-aide-Obama-drive-stake-heart-campaign-big-debate-tonight.html

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  14. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Why Manolo? Its basically business as usual whoever gets in, just like labour/national here.

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  15. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    I checked out your link Manolo. Even if we accept that Obama thinks ” there is no God but Allah” so what?

    Firstly it is little different to how any other religious person thinks. Christians believe their God is the only right one too.

    Secondly and most importantly, Allah and God are the same thing.

    BTW, I am taking the rest of the week off work, as my friend from communist China is coming to stay and she is from a Muslim family ! We should get Redbaiter around for a beer or something lol :)

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  16. flipper (4,083 comments) says:

    So we think NZ has problems….

    Adjust for size, but Obamination (the annointed one) has a bigger problem which, if Romney is smart, he will reference frequently this afternoon.

    The following indisputable statistics tell a woeful tle:
    —23 Million Unemployed or Underemployed
    —47 Million on Food Stamps
    —5.5 Million Homes in Crisis/Foreclosure
    —$4500 Drop in Household Income
    —$5.5 Trillion of New Debt
    —$716 Billion in Medicare Cuts
    —$2.6 Trillion for Obamacare
    —$1.9 Trillion in New Taxes in Obama’s Budget
    —100% Increase in Gas Prices in last four years

    Oh dear, what a pity. Never mind.

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  17. Waymad (136 comments) says:

    Perhaps, David, all Gumnut Departments need one of those Hazard signs at the door:
    – Be aware we may mislay, inadvertently distribute, drop from a vehicle, or otherwise misdeploy any data relating to you, your relatives, your Gumnut Advisers, or your pets.
    – Please take care around our staff. Some have carrying permits for cellphone cameras, scalpels, syringes, assorted chemicals and pharmaceuticals. They usually don’t misuse any of these. Usually.
    – Please mark, carefully, any bodily parts with which you seriously expect to leave the premises. While we take extreme care to work to the highest standards, we do employ dyslexics, have staff with low-level mental issues or minor dependencies, all in the hallowed name of Diversity.

    Further contributions are welcomed…..

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  18. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Big uproar at the Vatican after a Cardinal showed this 2008 video about Muslim Demographics.

    I share that concern Fletch. Things are going from bad to worse, especially in Northern Europe.

    However I do not blame the Muslims. They are only taking an opportunity presented to them by social engineering lefties pursuing their absurd ideologies. They have sold out (well given away really) their own cultures. The Muslims did not “take it” from them.

    I am pro immigration, up to a point. That point is where the very things that attract immigrants are diminished due to saturation by cultures that do not share the beliefs of the locals. It is not for the benefit of Muslims to find the very things they sought to escape, recreated in London, for example. It benefits no one.

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  19. Lance (2,662 comments) says:

    Kea is correct.
    Christian Arabs pray to Allah. This is Arabic for ‘God’, nothing more.

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  20. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Waymad, to summarise. Please excuse the lack of service as all our employees are drawn from an education system that has been dumbed down for three generations and they are hand picked using the latest EEEOOOOO/Affirmative Action* theories to ensure “balance” in gender/ethnic/sexual orientation/disability/intelecutal ability/physical ability balance/social and political orientation.

    * Guidelines drawn up by VUW, an equal opportunities empolyment opportunity (“we dont discriminate on the grounds of intellectual ability”) provider (TM).

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  21. Stuart (41 comments) says:

    As per http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7824628/Drink-drivers-want-refund-after-15-000-defence-fails

    How does one get off drink driving? I thought it was a simple matter or being over the limit or not. I honeslty do want to know, it makes no sense to me that a lawyer can frequently get people off drink driving charges.

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  22. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    The Tobacco Excise Amendment Bill pass it’s third reading yesterday. This means the price of tobacco will rise by 15% for each of four years. The price of a packet of cigarettes is expected to end up over $20. Some will applaud that, many probably won’t care and some will grumble.

    This part of the bill was supported by all parties.

    Another amendent to exclude tobacco from CPI calculations was passd (but opposed by Greens, NZF and Mana). This means that benefits don’t rise to cover the rising cost of tobacco.

    Tobacco price bill – 4x 10% increase but no benefit increase

    From time to time I get confronted with accusations that Peter Dunne is in the pocket of big tobacco and he never opposes limits on smoking. That is proven nonsense. As he has done in the past, he supported the anti-smoking measures in this bill.

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  23. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    A guy I work with has Elvish inscribed on his wedding ring!

    I wonder if he follows the teaching of Elves ? I can not see why not, they are as real as God or Allah and considerably less blood thirsty.

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  24. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    “social engineering lefties pursuing their absurd ideologies” … and their collusion with big business and certain factions in the right who want cheap labour and social dysfunction.

    … if it was only as simple as blaming the left…. sigh.

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  25. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    How does one get off drink driving? I thought it was a simple matter or being over the limit or not. I honeslty do want to know, it makes no sense to me that a lawyer can frequently get people off drink driving charges.

    Ask a Cop. The conviction rates for police officers, facing drink driving charges, are much lower than the general population.

    I am not convinced it is because the police, as the prosecuting authority, are being soft on their people. I think it may be due to better legal representation. A cop has allot to lose and will spend allot of money getting the best lawyer.

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  26. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    … if it was only as simple as blaming the left…. sigh.

    It is that simple Kevin.

    It only starts getting complicated and convoluted when you try to displace the blame elsewhere.

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  27. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    The Tobacco Excise Amendment Bill pass it’s third reading yesterday. This means the price of tobacco will rise by 15% for each of four years.

    Labour lite bending over and forced to do this by the racist Maori Party. Yes, spineless National, once the party of low taxes and bastion of individual responsibility.

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  28. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Kea Those who preach so called neoliberal economics are often pro immigration because it deregulates the so called “labour market” and povides cheap labour in our own country.

    Are you saying they are lefties?

    who is on the right? who speaks for us?

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  29. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    A good read: http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2012/10/16/random_thoughts

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  30. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    The average conviction rate for all drink-drivers in the past three years was more than 95 per cent, compared with less than 38 per cent for police officers.

    There you go Stuart…

    You want to ” get off ” drink driving, then become a cop.

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  31. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Yes I see your point Kevin. It was the same deal in NZ with immigration from the Pacific Islands, back in the 70’s.

    The real problem is when the host culture is expected to defer entirely to the norms of the immigrants. This is where the left comes in.

    I have no problem with basic respect and tolerance of cultural difference. I am pro immigration. But what we see in Europe goes well beyond that.

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  32. Nookin (3,354 comments) says:

    Kea
    The figures are interesting but only in the sense that they prompt more inquiry.
    Of the 95%, how many were defended? Of the 38%, how many were defended?

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  33. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    I agree. Even NZ has been flooded to the point of really stretching our social services and it was a collusion between left (soft turned to hard multiculturalism) and right (cheap labour plus baby boomers get a good price for their houses). How you fight that? I dont know. Winston shot himself in the foot by being hard line anti immigration, but immigrants can be our allies on issues such as law and order and iwi fascism.

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  34. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Nookin, I touched upon your question at 9:06 am, with my initial post.

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  35. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Winston shot himself in the foot by being hard line anti immigration, but immigrants can be our allies on issues such as law and order and iwi fascism.

    Ahhhhhhhhhh, at last someone who gets that. :)

    How do you think all those hard working Chinese immigrants up in Auckland view welfare dependency and other social ills …

    You want to see real capitalists and law and order?, then look to the people from communist China. Ironic

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  36. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    A straight Chrissy Carter equivalent of Aussie politics: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/mp-quits-after-ridicule-20121017-27pqc.html

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  37. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    I’ve worked with immigrants in Auckland on the law nd order issue and they are spittng tacks about it. They often feel they have been tricked by flash advertising that NZ is a peaceful place with a low crime rate.

    You should see the leftie groups, with the assistance of the government well-funded HRC trying to engraciate themselves with the immigrants to downplay the crime and benefit scamming aspects of NZ.

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  38. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    A world of difference – Astronomers discover planet with four suns.

    Like six other known planets it orbits two stars – it must be quick, it goes around both in 138 days. The suns are 1.5 and 0.41 the size of ours, and presumably have quite a distance between them.

    Unlike any other known planets orbiting two suns there are another two suns orbiting this planetary system.

    Getting up in the morning could be confusing.

    The diversity of the universe is pretty much beyond comprehension.

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  39. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Stuart et.al: I am no expert in this, but as I understand it,”getting off” drink driving is largely about finding mistakes in the procedure by the cops who caught you – early ones were failing to ensure that the person detained was able to speak to a lawyer “in private” as required; mistakes in the time required to consider your options if you fail the evidential breath test and have the right to have a blood test; inability to prove the evidential breath test machine had been checked for accuracy etc.

    In my own case, I was advised there was a “technical” defence – which probably would have succeeded – arising from the manner in which the blood test was administered. I chose not to avail myself of that defence. If you are a cop who will lose his career as a result of conviction, I guess the stakes are much higher, and you will take any chance you are offered.

    Someone with greater knowledge of this area of law will no doubt be able to do much better than I have.

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  40. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Kevin, I remember a while back there was a run of small businesses being robbed and people assaulted. The victims were all of Indian or Asian extraction. The offenders all Maori. Yet the media never hinted they may be race/hate crimes. Funny that. Imagine if it were Europeans doing it, even though statistically it is more likely to be Europeans based on them being more prevalent. Yet the offenders were all of the Maori minority, what are the chances of that?

    A group of largely Asian and Indians protested about this. They wanted tougher laws. The media gave them a little bit of coverage, even though their group was far larger than many we see on TV pushing lefty agendas.

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  41. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Someone with greater knowledge of this area of law will no doubt be able to do much better than I have.

    I doubt it. I think you nailed it David.

    This is very close to cheque book justice. Those able to afford the best representation will receive a different outcome, given the same factual situation. I am troubled by that.

    We hear allot about the cost of legal aid, but I think it should be unlimited, just like it is for the prosecution. The state will spend whatever it takes to convict you. Many cases run into the Millions. You can lose everything, simply to prove your innocent. That is not justice in my book.

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  42. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Kea, I was involved in the protests in about 2008 after 3 seperate killings of Asians in South Auckland. It was a massive protest but funnily enough Maori TV was the only one to give it much airtime. Some very nice Maori turned up to the protest.

    Its not all black and white as the portray in the media. If we could break through the media lines there is huge support for “silent majority” causes.

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  43. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Those cases are the exception, not the rule Kea. The norm is that thousands of Sian Elias’s “blameless babes” get off with 40-50-60 offences before there are any real consequences.

    Down at the Auckland Court the no-hopers laugh about it because they run up tens of thousands of dollars’ worth of fines, then finally are arrested, appear in court and have their fines wiped by being given community service that they know they will never attend. They think it’s a great joke.

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  44. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Yes I agree Kevin. I was not trying to “get at” Maori in that post. Many Maori are victims of crime themselves. The stats clearly show that Maori offend at a higher rate. This means that all the good Maori folk are often living amongst a bunch of crims in the surrounding neighborhood. They get their houses robbed, fence tagged, and other nonsense.

    Most Maori have no time for all that and just want to get on in life like everyone else.

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  45. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Kea and Kevin: Spot on. The period in which those protests occurred was around the time of the murder of the South Auckland liquor store owner Navtej Singh. It was just before the 2008 election Let’s just say the only criticism of the “three strikes” proposal I ever got from immigrants was that it was far too lenient. Most of them favoured one strike, followed by execution. The Indians were a bit softer – LWOP was OK for them.

    Kevin: Re your post recent post, 3S has changed things somewhat. No-one will now be able to rack up 30 convictions for serious violence.

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  46. ex-golfer (165 comments) says:

    Ahhh – the irony………

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/7821993/Maori-land-sold-for-golf-course

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  47. Andrei (2,664 comments) says:

    From time to time I get confronted with accusations that Peter Dunne is in the pocket of big tobacco and he never opposes limits on smoking. That is proven nonsense. As he has done in the past, he supported the anti-smoking measures in this bill.

    The only thing that Peter Dunne stands for is keeping his butt on his plush green seat in parliament and his snout firmly in the trough.

    The only thing that this legislation will achieve is to further the sale of black market tobacco, excite the prissy puritans of Khandallah who take malicious satisfaction in depriving the poor of any pleasures in life and further fill Government coffers with more money for the slurpers to slurp.

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  48. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    The diversity of the universe is pretty much beyond comprehension.

    Ah, but Lucia would say God knew what he was doing. :)

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  49. Scott Chris (6,150 comments) says:

    Big uproar at the Vatican after a Cardinal showed this 2008 video about Muslim Demographics.

    The poor will always breed faster than the middle classes. Solution:

    Make the poor become middle class. Easy to radicalize a populace with little to lose, much harder to radicalize those in the thrall of western materialism.

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  50. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Down at the Auckland Court the no-hopers laugh about it because they run up tens of thousands of dollars’ worth of fines, then finally are arrested, appear in court and have their fines wiped by being given community service that they know they will never attend. They think it’s a great joke.

    If someone is not able to afford to pay their fines, then Community Work makes sense. If they do not complete their CW, then they can be prosecuted for a breach. The Judge has the option of going to the next tier of sentencing, Community Detention, Home Detention and Prison.

    The alternative is the “they should pay no matter how long it takes” school of thought. There is a problem with this approach.

    If it is assessed that a person can pay, say, a maximum of $25.00 a week from their benefit, then that can be easily done by an Attachment Order. If they continue to offend, new fines can be included in that action. All the fines will be under arrangement and getting paid.

    However, the net effect is that you are saying as long as you pay $25.00 a week, you are exempt from all monetary penalties. Don’t worry about a rego or warrant on your car, minor disorder offences and a (increasing) mountain of other financial penalties. Just keep on paying $25.00 a week and its all ok.

    I would be happy with that set up myself !

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  51. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I see tom Hunter was up bright and early today peddling his Romneyesque distortions and outright lies. Most interesting is his fixation that in all circumstances an economist should only have one fixed view.

    Ah well, some people have only a tenuous relationship with sanity, it seems.

    Anyway, more Cuban crisis mythbusting:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/16/opinion/the-eyeball-to-eyeball-myth-and-the-cuban-missile-crisiss-legacy.html?ref=opinion&_r=0

    And for those interested, Krugman will be debating with NYT colleague Frank Bruni, streaming live 6:30pm Eastern Time on the NYT Opinion Pages site – a link is provided on Krugman’s first blog post of the day.

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  52. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    So it appears that Auckland Council is letting a developer build an 18-hole links-style golf course and a 46-lot luxury subdivision proposed for Te Arai Beach, south of Mangawhai. The subdivision will consist of 44 rural-residential lots of one to two hectares and two larger balance lots. As a sweetener, the developer will give the council 172ha for a coastal and wetland reserve north of its Te Arai Pt park.

    Critics say public opposition is high. They cite the environmental impact, the fact that the land is next to to the nesting grounds of the critically endangered New Zealand fairy tern, the unspoiled beach, the pristine conditions.

    And you would think there’d be another, even larger bone of contention. In 2005 a district plan change was lodged for this area for a 1400-lot coastal community. In Northland, where unemployment is high and there are many Maori living in less than adequete housing, wouldn’t this be a great place for Maori to do something? Take some of their treaty settlement money, and use it to build a coastal community, where they can raise their whanau. How does a 1400-lot plan get replaced by a 46-lot plan and golf course? Why aren’t the local Maori jumping up and down about this?

    Probably because it was their idea.

    http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/document/pdf/201242/TeArai.pdf

    Northland hapu Te Uri o Hau has successfully negotiated for a world-class golf course to be built at the northern end of their 616 hectare forest adjoining Te Arai beach, 90 minutes drive north of Auckland between Pakiri and Mangawhai.

    Te Uri o Hau negotiated for around 230 hectares of the forest, which the hapu acquired as a commercial asset as part of its Treaty settlement in 2002, to be bought by Los Angeles financier and golf enthusiast Ric Kayne and his wife Suzanne.

    Tell me it’s not about the money.

    EDIT: ex-golfer at 10:23 am – snap.

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  53. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    Kevin (797) Says:
    October 17th, 2012 at 9:49 am

    I’ve worked with immigrants in Auckland on the law nd order issue and they are spittng tacks about it. They often feel they have been tricked by flash advertising that NZ is a peaceful place with a low crime rate.

    Meh. Many of them prefer the dictatorships they come from where a trial lasts less than a day and the accused is promptly taken out the back and shot. It’s a different cultural attitude. Social order outweighs any concern for individual freedom or innocence. And yet despite this, the Chinese murder rate is still higher than ours and that doesn’t include the uncounted murder committed by the state in executing untold numbers of people (in the thousands most likely).

    They are welcome to leave if they don’t like it here.

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  54. Scott Chris (6,150 comments) says:

    So is it time for a Three Strikes law for MP’s?

    Well I probably wouldn’t object to Winston being struck three times…

    Reminds me of the old nursery rhyme:

    Hickory dickory dock,
    Three mice ran up the clock,
    The clock struck one,
    The other two got away with minor injuries.

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  55. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    Andrei (1,498) Says:
    October 17th, 2012 at 10:25 am

    From time to time I get confronted with accusations that Peter Dunne is in the pocket of big tobacco and he never opposes limits on smoking. That is proven nonsense. As he has done in the past, he supported the anti-smoking measures in this bill.

    The only thing that Peter Dunne stands for is keeping his butt on his plush green seat in parliament and his snout firmly in the trough.

    The only thing that this legislation will achieve is to further the sale of black market tobacco, excite the prissy puritans of Khandallah who take malicious satisfaction in depriving the poor of any pleasures in life and further fill Government coffers with more money for the slurpers to slurp.

    I take it you apply that same logic to the prohibition of cannabis. :)

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  56. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    That’s what fellow racists are for: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/politics/7826838/Sharples-sought-bigger-fee-for-overpaid-chief

    Te Puni Kokiri suggested Maori Language Commission chairman Erima Henare be paid extra as a specialist consultant after he was overpaid as chairman.

    In August, The Dominion Post reported that Mr Henare, former board member Wayne Ngata and former chairman Patu Hohepa were paid $124,000 above their statutory entitlement during five years.

    Maori Affairs Minister Pita Sharples wrote to then-state services minister Tony Ryall advising of the breach and requesting a permanent increase in Mr Henare’s fee, “to better reflect the requirements of the Te Taura Whiri chair role, I propose increasing the annual cap to the lesser of 80 days or $52,000″.

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  57. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    SC…usual comment re labour would loose its power base..

    Agreed David, but nothing will really change until we have a total societal change in individual responsibility. What happens now where people can rack up 50 crimes before their first “strike” offence robs our society of the ability to make the poor into middle class as SC suggests. We really need three strikes for petty crme followed by definitive inervention in the whole family to prevent these blameless babes doing more damage. The money wasted going soft on the underclass is money needed elsewhare.

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  58. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I don’t have time to reply in much depth, but here is one especially egregious example of Tom Hunter channelling Romney (ie distortions and lies):

    In the early 2010′s the US has a recession,

    Actually, Tom, it was the Global Financial Crisis that erupted in 2007-8, otherwise referred to as the Great Recession or the Lesser Depression, and remains ongoing.

    This is a wonderful graph comparing the GFC to ordinary recessions:

    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/08/fact-checking-financial-recessions/

    And this post provides even more context:

    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/11/a-global-1937/

    A quote from this link:

    This is taking place in an environment in which the private sector is still deleveraging ferociously from the debt binge of the previous decade; so we’re creating a situation in which both the private sector and the public sector are trying to slash spending relative to income. And whaddya know, the world economy is sputtering.

    But I’ll let Tom get back to his Nazi death squads fetish – I think he reckons Noam Chomsky was their leader, or something, from his MIT office.

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  59. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    Ben Swann: Why Media Won’t Talk About Executive Orders

    Ben Swann, Host and Producer of Reality Check speaking at a Libertas Meeting in Cincinnati, OH. Ben talks about Executive Orders, The Drug War, NDAA and Internet Piracy bills

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  60. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    graham (1,375) Says:
    October 17th, 2012 at 10:31 am

    Tell me it’s not about the money

    Tell my why it shouldn’t be about the money!

    So according to you, Maori with no money are bludgers and scumbags, and Maori who set out to make good business returns are…bludgers and scumbags?

    Your racism is showing, Graham. Are you blushing?

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  61. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    Relentless PC crap: http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-news/being-straight-no-longer-normal-students-taught/story-e6freuzi-1226497360980

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  62. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    Oklahoma Republican Senator Tom Coburn released his “Wastebook 2012” on Tuesday, which highlights over $18 billion in taxpayer money that the outspoken spending hawk says has been wasted by the government.

    Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/16/coburn-report-details-18-billion-of-waste-govt-initiatives/#ixzz29VFXjSiO

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  63. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    Tell my why it shouldn’t be about the money!

    Because for years Maori have been saying “We need housing!”

    For years Maori have been saying that too many of their people live in inadequate, substandard, overcrowded or unsafe accommodation.

    For years we have been told that Maori suffer disproportionately from inadequate housing, and are discriminated against in accessing decent accommodation and in the ability to borrow capital to build on Maori land.

    We are told that “Homelessness is a much bigger issue in Aotearoa today than many people realise. Much more needs to be done to ensure that housing is available where and when people need it, through secure, affordable rentals and through improved access to loans for those who aspire to home ownership.”

    There have been calls to introduce housing programmes which would work to overcome the “many current barriers to building housing on Maori communally owned land.”

    There are calls to extend the range of options for assistance with home purchase for low and middle income earners.

    There are calls to increase Government support for third sector housing providers – whānau, hapū and iwi, community and church based organisations who work to provide quality social housing (rental and owned) in local areas.

    There are calls to support the development of Indigenous housing models, as well as sweat equity, shared equity, eco housing, cooperative housing and other innovative forms of home ownership.

    There are calls to maintain and increase rural housing improvement programmes which enable whānau to bring their homes up to decent health and safety standards.

    There are calls for the Government to assist with the establishment of a community owned banking network which will assist with housing loans for papakainga and other tangata whenua and community based social housing initiatives.

    There are demands to increase government support for rural districts.

    These are all current policies from a certain political party.

    If Maori want to buy land with part of their Treaty settlement, fine. If they want to flog it off for a golf course, fine. No skin off my nose. But if they then turn around and say “We need the Government to give us money and start up programmes because we don’t have the money to build good houses and we don’t the land to build them on”, that’s a bit on the nose in my opinion.

    And please – don’t put words in my mouth. I have never called Maori bludgers or scumbags.

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  64. anakereiti (15 comments) says:

    @ Luc – makes good business sense to sell the land, Maori cant afford to develop it – sell it, make some money (which pakeha normally espouse), and gain employment for some maori in the region – good plan. Yes Luc, its only a good idea when pakeha make money – god forbid Maori should make some

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  65. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    graham, your post in misleading.

    Re-write it. Next time replace the word “government” with “white people or everyone else”.

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  66. Paulus (2,632 comments) says:

    Where was Winston last evening when he was expected to take his place at dinner for Al Gore ?
    Incapacitated I expect.
    All the leading Greenpeace New Zealand branch were there including Labour Shadow Ministers and cohorts all paid for by the taxpayer at I think it was $890 per ticket to hear Gores’ Bore – his speech was disappointing for the price.

    His cheerleader, the convicted drunken driver Lucy Lawless (appropriate) took the stand up cheerleaders role.

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  67. Longknives (4,764 comments) says:

    But surely if you had a ‘Spiritual Connection’ to the land (which we ‘dirty,stinking pakeha’ can apparently never understand) then you wouldn’t quickly sell such precious land to the highest bidder??

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  68. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Deportation for immigrants who complain about our crime rate, Weihana? I’d rather deport the criminals but NZ has a poor record in doing that.

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  69. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Yes Kevin, the Maori can go back to where they came from. Taiwan !

    I bet they won’t be “over represented” in the crime stats there, at least not for long.

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  70. anakereiti (15 comments) says:

    I didnt realise they were selling it all Longknives?

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  71. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    Kevin (801) Says:
    October 17th, 2012 at 11:35 am

    Deportation for immigrants who complain about our crime rate, Weihana? I’d rather deport the criminals but NZ has a poor record in doing that.

    Exactly how do you get “deportation” from “They are welcome to leave if they don’t like it here”?

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  72. ex-golfer (165 comments) says:

    Luc Hansen (4,101) Says:

    Tell my why it shouldn’t be about the money!

    So according to you, Maori with no money are bludgers and scumbags, and Maori who set out to make good business returns are…bludgers and scumbags?

    ——————————-

    But Luc – I thought Maori were opposed to sale of their ancestral land? As in the Crafar Farms case.
    I also thought Maori were opposed to the sale of assets? In particular assets in which they believe they have a spiritual connection to – surely land they own is such an asset?
    Or is it OK because the purchasers are not Asian?

    I congratulate this IWI for making a wise investment choice.
    Maybe, as Graham points out, they might want to use the returns to filter down to the Northland Maori who need support in the form of affordable housing and unemployment.
    Unfortunately I won’t be holding my breath.

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  73. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Lefties will never get ever. You dont help people long term by giving them handouts, especially from self perpetuating gravy train organisations. You help them by having a strong economy and a strong unified country with strong industry so they can work hard and dont need the snivelling self righteous do gooders any more.

    But in a democracy, politicians have to feel needed so they invent these moral panics to keep the country “needing” them.

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  74. tom hunter (4,894 comments) says:

    Luc as incoherent as ever:

    otherwise referred to as the Great Recession or the Lesser Depression, and remains ongoing.

    Which accords exactly with my statement that In the early 2010′s the US has a recession,

    But spare me the garbage about 2007-2009 being The Great Recession as a reason for the lousy Obama recovery. That’s just the usual debate framing from people trying to CYA themselves in 2012. If you look at this chart of every post-WWII recession you will see what this article notes:

    Some might suppose that this is because the 2008-09 recession was a particularly long and debilitating one. But the historical record shows that the pattern is generally as follows: the worse the recession, the stronger the recovery.

    Indeed, if we limit our comparison to the five longest recessions in the past 65 years (each of which lasted at least 11 months), we find the following: During the four pre-Obama recoveries from such recessions, average real GDP growth in the first three years was a whopping 5.9% — dwarfing the 2.2% figure under Obama.

    That’s despite not only the “Stimulus” boondoggle but massive increases in permanent Federal government spending, which is now running close to $1 trillion more per year than in 2008 or earlier years. It jumped in 2009 courtesy of the GFC but has never gone down again. That’s not just a one-time stimulus but a continuous one – and it has failed to act the way Keynesians predicted. Yet Krugman claims to want more spending. He wanted a stimulus of $2 or even $3 trillion, a sum so out of this world that even a Democrat Party with overwhelming control of Congress, Senate and the Presidency, could not contemplate getting it. That does not seem to allow much political nous from Krugman.

    And even if they had delivered on his wishes we would merely have seen the same as the Chinese “Stimulus”, which was one on the scale that Krugman desired – $US586 billion in an economy only one third as large as the US. The equivalent of a $1.7 trillion stimulus in the USA. The result was simply a “sugar rush” of spending on ghost cities and bucket-loads of other new “infrastructure” that simply hiked up the prices of steel, iron, coal, cement and a thousand other commodities – which are all now going through the floor – and have left nothing but structures not being used.

    That’s because spending means nothing unless it actually creates a permanent stream of wealth, which is what real “investment” does. But with their manic focus on aggregate demand the Keynesians have never been able to see this. Spending is all that matters, so if it drops it must be replaced, and if the private sector won’t do it then the government must.

    An example of how insane this attitude is comes from the fact that while Krugman now criticises the real estate bubble in the USA as false wealth (like everyone else) that does not stop him from demanding that the resulting demand gap caused by the popping of that bubble must be filled. So he wants the government to fill that gap with printed money or taxed money – even though he supposedly recognises that the spending (like the wealth effect it was based on) was fake in the first place.

    The reason the recession is lingering so long (technically it ended in July 2009) is that the private sector is not investing because they’re terrified of what all this debt and government spending means for the future. The problem is not “de-leveraging” but that fact that $2 trillion or more of private sector cash is sitting on the sidelines. Nothing that Krugman or the Federal government (or the Federal Reserve) is doing is changing that environment.

    Oh – and on that other minor issue: repeat after me Luc
    Castro, a hero of the Far-Left, used members of Nazi death squads.
    Chomsky, another hero of the Far-Left has held such an action to be morally reprehensible – but does not use Castro as his example

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  75. slijmbal (1,236 comments) says:

    You ask

    “How does one get off drink driving? I thought it was a simple matter or being over the limit or not. I honeslty do want to know, it makes no sense to me that a lawyer can frequently get people off drink driving charges.”

    As DG implies it’s about the process. I was told by a lawyer specialising in this stuff that it is actually a technical offense in that it’s not about proving you are an at risk driver it is about proving you are over specific limits. His advice to me was to use every option to get the police to fail in the process, take the blood test, see if they offer to let you call a lawyer, try and call your own lawyer, write down afterwards what you were told at the time, get the spare sample for your own test etc etc. All to try and provoke a mistake. It’s relatively common for something to go wrong with the blood evidence. So, yes, they “game” the system.

    Mind you, it is easier not to drink too much.

    He reckoned he had a pretty good success rate but the police were getting a lot better at the mechanics as his success rate was dropping. Even allowing for that It would not surprise me if one policeman to another got a bit sloppy accidentally on purpose as it is career ending.

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  76. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    Kate Chapman ‏@k8chap:
    Labour is withdrawing its proposed amendment to exempt unions from @hollyrwalker ‘s lobbying disclosure bill.

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  77. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    To be fair to Te Uri o Hau, they do have some projects on the go, including the Kaiwaka Housing Development, completed in March 2010. The Development consists of eight houses of which five are rental properties that have Te Uri o Hau beneficiaries as tenants.

    But eight houses isn’t that many … it would be nice to think they will invest that money into helping more of their own people.

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  78. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Mind you, it is easier not to drink too much.

    You “offensive” troll slijmbal. I am going to lodge a complaint with David !

    How about they drink as much as they like, but don’t drive ? :)

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  79. tom hunter (4,894 comments) says:

    And please – don’t put words in my mouth. I have never called Maori bludgers or scumbags.

    Oh Graham you big sweetie – that’s exactly the response that Luc Hansen thrives on. It’s what he lives for, his only real debating weapon because it gets people on the defensive (“I am not a racist”). He learned the tactic during the good old days of the 60’s when he was cheering on Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh, and he’s too old now to learn anything new.

    Just ignore it. When Luc is involved in an argument everybody is a racist – except him and his Far-Left buddies – even when they’re talking about those “Israelis” (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

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  80. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    Of course … Hone Harawira has pleaded not guilty to charges stemming from a state housing protest.

    He has denied the charge of failing to move a vehicle in the Auckland District Court, because he does not agree with the state charging him for defending the rights of the poor.

    Wish I’d thought of that.

    “I didn’t pay my tax bill because I do not agree with the state charging me for defending the rights of the poor – IE, me. Because I’ll be poor if I pay the bill.”

    And apparently, staying in the same state house for life IS a right. Clear now? Good.

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  81. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    C’mon, Lucy would never be a racist, wouldn’t she?

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  82. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    The west faces a huge threat from Muslim immigrants and the idiot politicians who push immigration and multiculturalism.
    The answer is a very strict immigration policy,one that respects the host’s culture ,history and traditions.

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  83. Longknives (4,764 comments) says:

    graham- I like your thinking. I might not pay my taxes as I object to feral, bludging scum (like the Glen Innes State House losers) fleecing the New Zealand taxpayer for State Houses, DPB handouts etc all the while contributing nothing to society (except more children and more crime)..
    Surely Penny and co would defend my right to protest?

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  84. Longknives (4,764 comments) says:

    “,one that respects the host’s culture ,history and traditions”

    I presume you are talking about Maori culture and traditions kowtow? As we all know European traditions have no place in modern New Zealand society..

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  85. wreck1080 (3,923 comments) says:

    woo, big earthquake in tauranga at 12:42pm….. well , big compared to anything else i felt…. small for christchurch people.

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  86. ex-golfer (165 comments) says:

    Just had a shake here in Wellington too.
    Not very big. Just a bit of a rumble.

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  87. wreck1080 (3,923 comments) says:

    see a 5.5 in taupo— but, short sharp jolt here in tauranga, never had one that size before (in 8 years).

    Anyway, just a baby in relative terms :)

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  88. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Anyone who didn’t previously know that Key is a bully , will know now after last nights news reports..The ”nice guy” image does not seem to be a priority any more.. I guess any act is hard to maintain.

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  89. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    Not that any sensble kb readers don’t know already ,but if Cuba was such a wonderful place why has the gummint there felt compelled to trap it’s “proud” people and not allow freedom of movement (and every other effing commie state)?

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2012/10/2012101672310434339.html

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  90. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    Marie Antoinette defends her man: http://www.politico.com/politico44/2012/10/flotus-barack-doesnt-have-a-big-ego-138661.html

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  91. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    Socialism fails (again) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9610717/French-business-erupts-in-fury-against-disastrous-Francois-Hollande.html

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  92. iMP (2,387 comments) says:

    NZ analysis of the 2nd Presidential Debate. Romney 8-7. Krauthammer gave it to Obama on points, so a split decision. Obama was much better than Denver, but the Libyan comment in the debate is key over next week. Boy, is Romney gonna cover that in Prez 3.

    http://conzervative.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/analysis-of-presidential-debate-2

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  93. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    Mold’s partner? http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8549466/gcsb-staffer-disciplined-parliament-told

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  94. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    iMP,

    I didn’t watch the whole debate but I did catch the exchange on energy. Krauthammer says Obama deflected about gas prices and blamed the recession without answering the question. The recession IS the answer to the question. Demand goes down and so does the price.

    http://gasbuddy.com/gb_retail_price_chart.aspx

    BTW, if the likes of Krauthammer are calling it a split decision it’s a safe bet that Obama won. :)

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  95. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    Some social engineering from the hapless frog president:
    François Hollande has a bold new plan to tackle social injustice and inequality in France: ban homework. Introducing his proposals for education reform last week at the Sorbonne, the French president declared that work “must be done in the [school] facility rather than in the home if we want to support the children and re-establish equality.”

    http://professional.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443675404578058301483391978.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEFTTopBucket&mg=reno64-wsj

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  96. Longknives (4,764 comments) says:

    An interesting decision-

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7828951/Not-guilty-verdict-in-Marceau-murder-case

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  97. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Seems like Romney made out a case.
    Seems like again,
    No one home in the Obama camp.

    I’ll still offer 50/50 odds.

    That must be a bargain for any socialists.

    Wanna bet girls ?

    Surely there must be at least one taker @ 50/50

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  98. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    Longknives

    …”Chand would be made a special patient, only to be released by the Minister of Health at his discretion. “….

    Translated into layman’s terms…..cured & home free by Xmas.

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  99. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Also.
    What a disgusting result in the Christie Marceau case, sickening. (sorry if i have spelled her name wrong)

    So this piece of shit, who Judge McNaughton let out so that he could finally kill her (knife her)
    will now be released when some psyciatrist decides that he, that fuckin psyiciatrist decides that he, that
    fuckin psyciatrist has “cured” this piece of shit .

    i feel so sorry for Christies parents and friends.

    i apologise to you on behalf of all New Zealand.

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  100. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    In a rational country, Chand would be sentenced to death. Sadly, thanks to the hysteria about electric shock therapy, Chand won’t even be subject to this.

    Is it correct that the Crown Prosecutor and the defence between them made a deal that the evidence of two psychiatrists should be accepted? They decide who gets a jury trial? Then they go back to their homes in safe, leafy suburbs.

    Psychiatrists decide when people are unable to make moral choice. All psychopaths are unable to make moral choice. So it’s open slather on all of us.

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  101. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    By the way,

    regarding the Christie Marceau case,
    if you were a juror on that case.

    You are a fucking disgrace to yourself and to our country, each and every one of
    you on that jury is a disgusting sickening disgrace.

    The Crown prosecuter is a fucking loser disgrace also.

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  102. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    My conspiracy theorist mate has sent me these links, as part of his on-going questioning of the legality of NZ law. (He has never been in trouble with the law).

    Can someone tell me what this is about; government departments are registered as companies? or is this some sort of mischief?

    (Look at the Certificate of Incorporation)

    http://www.business.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/3147032

    NZ POLICE LIMITED
    http://www.business.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/3238729

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  103. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Of course the biggest disgrace in this whole sordid, sickening, disgusting episode in
    New Zealand history is “Judge” McNaughton.

    If ‘Judge” McNaughton had done his job Christie may still be alive.

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  104. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    Jack5

    Have to disagree on the death penalty…..NZ justice does not have a proud tradition of ‘getting it right’ every time & the possibility of executing one innocent citizen is enough for me to keep capital punishment off the tariff.

    Other than that, effectively excusing the actions of a person suffering from a mental illness has gone too far. If they were genuinely insane at the time it is highly unlikely that they will ever be fully cured. Even if a psychiatrist thinks they no longer present a danger to the public a few months or a few years down the track you can guarantee that without regular medication the illness will reappear. Community care of psychiatric patients is the greatest con ever perpetrated on the NZ electorate & the follow up care needed is simply not there.

    In the circumstances, IMHO the person should remain a committed patient in a humane yet secure facility for the rest of their life. The rest of us deserve no less protection.

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  105. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    Bereal

    Re the bail decision. Judge McNaughton’s hands were tied by the law of the land when it came to giving Chand bail. It seems that because of his age & circumstances granting of bail on the initial charge was inevitable. We probably have Dear Leader’s crim loving mates to thank for the legislation.

    I have the legal eagles’ opinions on file somewhere. I can hunt it out if you want.

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  106. Nookin (3,354 comments) says:

    So, where does a bankrupt owing a massive damages award get the money to go to USA?
    Will we soon see a site denigrating the entire US judiciary?
    Will Penny be heading off to US to volunteer as a MacKenzie friend? (Please, please….)
    Whatever happened to his last contempt case. Did he go inside?
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/world/7829140/Kiwi-battler-Vince-Siemer-arrested-in-US

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  107. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    nasska @ 6.06

    often you make sense,
    this time you have it wrong.

    Apply your warped logic then almost everyone who murdered someone must be ‘suffering’ from a
    mental illness.

    Do you really think that the piece of shit who knifed Christie to death didn’t know what he was doing ?

    What is wrong with your last paragraph is that eventually some do gooder physcologist will declare that
    he, thay psyciatrist has cured him that he should be released.

    You seem to automatically extend an olive branch to the perp in this case.
    Not his case, not his problem, he is just sick.

    You are the sick one mate.

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  108. Nookin (3,354 comments) says:

    Looks like some of my questions are answered in the report. Wonder how Stiassney feels about getting zilch for his efforts

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  109. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    nasska
    You say the ‘Judges” hands were tied .

    What total crap.

    If that was the case, why bother having Judges ?

    Tell that to Christies parents and friends.

    Like i say, often you make sense, not this time.

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  110. wat dabney (3,775 comments) says:

    If that was the case, why bother having Judges ?

    To apply the law, I’d suggest.

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  111. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    Bereal

    I’m not qualified to tell whether someone is suffering from a particular form of mental illness any more than I’m qualified to diagnose cancer….it is one of those cases where we have to trust the experts. What I wrote was that if someone is judged mentally incompetent then they should stay that way & be kept as a committed patient for the term of their life…..in other words, not freed a couple of months or years later when the government of the day decides to save a few bob on the mental health bill.

    No olive branches…if he’s sick, he’s sick & he deserves to be humanely treated. We as the taxpaying public do however, not want him back in society.

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  112. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    tom hunter (3,667) Says:
    October 17th, 2012 at 12:02 pm

    The reason the recession is lingering so long (technically it ended in July 2009) is that the private sector is not investing because they’re terrified of what all this debt and government spending means for the future

    Self serving ignorance from my friend – not to mention contradictory: the recession is over but the recession lingers…! Phew! Stand still for a moment, Tom.

    Ask the American car industry if they were terrified of the money printed to bail them out of their potentially terminal slide – you know, when Mitt said to let them go broke.

    After every round of QE, employment and the share market rose. When the Fed stopped spending money, both fell. I guess according to you this isn’t good enough real world evidence as you prefer your Fantasy Island stuff.

    Do yourself a favor and watch today’s talk with Paul Krugman sponsored by the NYT:

    http://new.livestream.com/nytimes/PaulKrugman

    As for the rest of your ridiculous bile, take your pill, old chum. I lost track of what you were on about ages ago. But it’s very funny imagining the spittle dribbling down your chin while you bang on the keys!

    Manolo (7,836) Says:
    October 17th, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    C’mon, Lucy would never be a racist, wouldn’t she?

    In fact, I’ve never claimed that. I was raised in an overtly racist New Zealand of the day, the remnants of which mainly inhabit places like Kiwiblog, anonymously, of course.

    But I do claim to (at least partially) recognize my cognitive biases and by recognizing them, hopefully overcome them.

    Most of you here make incredibly racist statements then profess shock horror at being called out. I can only presume those people are deluded in the extreme.

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  113. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    My conspiracy theorist mate has sent me these links, as part of his on-going questioning of the legality of NZ law. (He has never been in trouble with the law).

    Can someone tell me what this is about; government departments are registered as companies? or is this some sort of mischief?

    (Look at the Certificate of Incorporation and company name)

    http://www.business.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/3147032

    NZ POLICE LIMITED
    http://www.business.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/3238729

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  114. wat dabney (3,775 comments) says:

    After every round of QE, employment and the share market rose. When the Fed stopped spending money, both fell. I guess according to you this isn’t good enough real world evidence as you prefer your Fantasy Island stuff.

    You think you can go on inflating a bubble forever on funny money?

    You’re just making the final reckoning all the more disastrous. Ask the Greeks.

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  115. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    nasska

    problem with your post @ 6.38 is that eventually some do gooder bearded psyco will make a name for
    himself by discovering that he, (the bearded psyco) has done the impossible and ‘Cured’ the criminal’ Chand. of course
    that do gooder bearded psyco will have no skin in the game.

    Me, i’rather not take the risk.

    You wanna bail Chand to live next door to you and your daughter ?

    Get real mate.

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  116. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    QE tilts at windmills, i.e. it tackles the wrong problem. It won’t work, it can’t.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XcGh1Dex4Yo

    bereal, you might bear in mind it’s very hard to fake the illness this guy has been found to have. It’s also extremely rare to have both the defence and prosecution agree to the verdict, which they both did, in this case. Possibly them and the medical experts might know a bit than you about (a) the law and (b) the science. You might want to think about that.

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  117. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Wat, the Greece was borrowing off Germany and France, mainly, to finance their spending spree, prior to the crisis. Greece has not been able to practice QE because it does not have its own currency.

    Therefore, Greece is irrelevant to a discussion on QE.

    As for how long QE can go on for, according to Ben Bernanke, until normal business is resumed. To Bernanke, this means normal employment levels and inflation remaining low, which inflation usually does when there is an output gap i.e. the economy is running below potential. Hence, the US QE program is now indefinite to all intents and purposes.

    Go argue with Bernanke.

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  118. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Reid

    Your opposition is a very good sign for the effectiveness of QE. How’s your 9/11 conspiracy theory coming along these days? And have you found Kennedy’s killer yet?

    The funny thing is, QE has been used quite sparingly in the US, and Federal spending cuts have been restrained, and the US is performing reasonably well.

    QE has been less effective in Britain, where Cameron and Osborne are savagely putting millions into poverty and reduced opportunity through ideologically driven spending cuts.

    Check this link, Reis, the graphs don’t lie:

    http://delong.typepad.com/

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  119. Scott Chris (6,150 comments) says:

    I see beryl’s on the piss again. :roll:

    Well said nasska. You’re really quite reasonable for a righty.

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  120. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/16/colorado-working-poor-elections-2012

    love this photo, lots of poverty when these people are queing up to get free Dr Peppers , although its one of my drinks of choice, I don’t think its reallya staple type food that a food bank needs to be dishing out, even though it appears to be Diet.

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  121. Fletch (6,408 comments) says:

    Just saw some of the debate online.
    Pissed me off a bit.
    Obama is such a bullshitter.

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  122. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    bereal,

    Where did Judge McNaughton err in law?

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  123. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Fletch

    I saw him avoid the question on gas prices. He should have just said yes, I agree, that how the free market works!

    No balls, except when he’s ticking the name of the unperson he wants killed today, from the safety of his desk.

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  124. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    Luc Hansen,

    How was his response avoiding the question? He referenced the recession. The price was down because of the recession. It has risen due to the recovery. A quick look at gas prices over the last 8 years shows this quite clearly. Obama could have explained it better I suppose, but then one would assume people would understand basic supply and demand. Demand goes up, prices go up. It’s criticizing Obama because the economy is in recovery.

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  125. Fletch (6,408 comments) says:

    Obama may have edged out Romney overall in the debate, but Romney won on the major issues, according to a CNN after-debate poll.

    Economy: Romney wins 58-40%
    Health care: Romney wins 49-46%.
    Taxes: Romney wins 51-44%.
    Deficit: Romney wins 59-36%.
    Strong leader: Romney wins 49-46%.

    See images from CNN screen shots here showing the polls –

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151109832659422&set=a.57138104421.71649.536584421&type=3&theater

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  126. tom hunter (4,894 comments) says:

    Poor old Luc appears to be losing it completely. For example he takes my quote about the Great Recession lingering and says:

    Self serving ignorance from my friend – not to mention contradictory: the recession is over but the recession lingers…! Phew! Stand still for a moment, Tom.

    Which would be quite a “gotcha”, except that:

    Actually, Tom, it was the Global Financial Crisis that erupted in 2007-8, otherwise referred to as the Great Recession or the Lesser Depression, and remains ongoing.

    Oh noes! Krugman Syndrome!!

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  127. Yvette (2,823 comments) says:

    David Shearer: Given his answer yesterday, has he now gone and asked his department, the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, what, if any, knowledge it had of the Kim Dotcom case prior to September?
    Rt Hon JOHN KEY: A member of the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet was aware of the Government Communications Security Bureau’s involvement after the raid took place; that would have been in late January. That information was never passed on to me. We have looked at all of the records and notes and email correspondence and the person has confirmed that they never discussed the matter with me, and has actually never discussed the matter with me.
    David Shearer: Who was that person who did not pass on that information to him?
    Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Roy Ferguson.
    This afternoon’s Hansard – http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Business/QOA/0/4/4/50HansQ_20121017_00000003-3-Dotcom-Case-Actions-of-Government-Communications.htm

    But the following has been posted here, during the last week, about three times –
    Jan 20: GCSB tells Roy Ferguson, director of the intelligence co-ordination group in the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, of its role in monitoring Dotcom for the police. [the day after the raid]
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10838272

    Shearer should read both the Herald and kiwiblog and not waste so much time in Parliament

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  128. Fletch (6,408 comments) says:

    Lowest part of the debate for me was when the subject of Benghazi came up and Obama said

    And the suggestion that anybody in my team, whether the Secretary of State, our U.N. Ambassador, anybody on my team would play politics or mislead when we’ve lost four of our own, governor, is offensive. That’s not what we do. That’s not what I do as president, that’s not what I do as Commander in Chief.

    Who is he kidding? Of COURSE they were playing politics, and it’s EXACTLY what he did as Commander in Chief. His only defense is to get seemingly indignant about it. What a bullshit artist.

    And the facilitator jumped in to save Obama as regards the words “act of terror” in what he said the day after. She (the debate facilitator) came to Obama’s defense but has now walked that back, saying she was wrong.

    After the debate, Anderson Cooper was the first member of the CNN post debate group to question whether or not Romney really got the Libya issue wrong. They then brought Crowley on and after all the damage she had done during the debate, she finally admitted that Romney was “right” but “picked the wrong word.”

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  129. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    A young, ruthless executive died and went to hell. When he got there, he saw one sign that said Capitalist Hell, and another that said Socialist Hell. In front of the Socialist Hell was an incredibly long line, while there was no-one in front of the Capitalist Hell. So the executive asked the guard, “What do they do to you in Socialist Hell?”
    “They boil you in oil, whip you, and then put you on the rack,” the guard replied.
    “And what do they do to you in Capitalist Hell?”
    “The same exact thing,” the guard answered.
    “Then why is everybody in line for Socialist Hell?”
    “Because in Socialist Hell, they’re always out of oil, whips, and racks!”

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  130. tom hunter (4,894 comments) says:

    And then it gets worse:

    Ask the American car industry if they were terrified of the money printed to bail them out of their potentially terminal slide – you know, when Mitt said to let them go broke.

    It wasn’t the American car industry it was GM and Chrysler. Ford neither wanted nor needed the help and are in better shape today for it and the European and Japanese companies with US factories are doing very nicely. And the result of the bailouts was that Chrysler is now owned by Fiat anyway, while GM has merely had their debts wiped out while undergoing no meaningful structural changes.

    What Mitt understood (and Obama did not) is that “going broke” in the US nowadays does not mean a firesale of all assets, with all the workers going down the road. It means going through Chapter 11, which means you get court protection from your creditors while you get things worked out with court-appointed overseers. Deep structural changes are made until everybody is convinced that the company can actually earn money. But every creditor takes a haircut as well. It’s a tough process, but plenty of companies have come through it in the last 30 years and survived, and the same could have been done for GM and Chrysler. Instead GM has the same dysfunctional management, products and processes that have plagued the company for three decades, as described by The Truth About Cars:

    It’s not that people are leaving GM. It’s how they leave. Two weeks ago, Opel chief Karl-Friedrich Stracke presented numbers to Dan Akerson. Akerson fires him. Opel gets two interim chiefs in a week. Last Thursday, Opel’s new design chief Dave Lyon doesn’t even start his job. Today, media in the U.S. and Germany report that Lyon had been escorted from the building and to a waiting car by GM’s head of personnel. A day later, global marketing chief Joel Ewanick suddenly leaves. Instead of wishing him all the best for his future endeavors, GM spokesman Greg Martin puts a knife in Ewanick’s back: “He failed to meet the expectations the company has of an employee.”

    It took them two years to come to that uncivilized conclusion? Ewanick was hired as U.S. marketing chief in May 2010. Apparently, he exceeded expectations, because half a year later, Ewanick was promoted to global chief marketing officer.

    As the blog points out, it looks and smells like panic, with GM stock at an all-time low and the company continuing to lose market share, with the government forcing them continue pushing the “Green” car that nobody wants, the Chevy Volt. I see they’re now also funneling billions of their tax-payer enhanced cash-pile into their faltering overseas operations: US taxpayers support the workers of the world. The US Federal government still owns 26% of the company stock, so perhaps it’s time they did a Michael Cullen and went all-in.

    But the wider lesson from the car-company-bailouts is that a proper bankruptcy process was avoided not simply because of the business ignorance of Obama and his team, but because the United Auto Workers were determined that everybody else was going to take the hit except them – and they had political clout. Bondholders in particular got completely shafted by Obama – who simply kicked long-standing laws to the curb about creditor payment order and let them lose everything. Is it any wonder that GM is now having a tough time borrowing money from the private sector markets: nobody trusts them anymore. Not to mention the scare it sent through the whole company bond market (once again refer to the $2 trillion sitting on the sidelines). When political connections count more than business law you should not be surprised that people are standing on the sidelines.

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  131. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Tom

    Whenever I see blogs, websites etc labeled “The truth about…(insert fetish of choice)” or “Blah blah…The Missing Truth” advertisements, I immediately prepare to be deluged with biased misinformation.

    Let’s cut to the chase on your beef about Krugman, with whom you appear to be obsessed (did you watch his show today?) and tell us what you think the US government and the Fed should be doing right now.

    Put some substance to your vitriol, my friend.

    Weihana,

    The question as I recall it (and I was heading out the door) was whether he thought it was not the role of a government department to control gas prices at the pump, which Steven Chu has, quite rightly, asserted previously. Chu is right. The US is a radical free market economy. Obama shied from giving a direct answer because then Romney would have had a home run with his lies.

    Their system with two dominant parties is as crocked as ours.

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  132. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Oh, Tom, the GFC remains ongoing and there is nothing ‘lingering’ about it. It remains a full fledged crisis with the patient on life support.

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  133. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Yep and greedy politicians caused it.

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  134. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Obama shied from giving a direct answer because then Romney would have had a home run with his lies.

    What a load of drivel ! This is typical of the distortions and leaps of logic Obama supporters display to protect their man.

    How do you know what Obama was thinking?

    How did Obama know what Romney “would have ” done?

    Are you (and Obama) mind readers? If not, then how do you support that statement?

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  135. Griff (7,808 comments) says:

    luc and tommy having a debate
    you know luc
    Whenever I see blogs, websites etc I immediately prepare to be deluged with biased misinformation. Is a good outlook every one transmits their bias the trick is to look without your own being engaged :lol:

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  136. Don the Kiwi (1,763 comments) says:

    O’Bummer was better tonite, but he still failed.
    How was telling everyone what Romney was “really” saying, going to help his vision for America?
    Romney win – O’Bummer fail.

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  137. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Quite right Griff, but our Tom relies almost exclusively on such sources whereas I get into peer-reviewed stuff – like as for climate science. It’s not so much bias a recognising reality.

    Climate change deniers like Tom have done a lot of damage to the credibly of any of their sources, I’m sure you would agree.

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  138. Griff (7,808 comments) says:

    Ha tom denies climate change yet actually admits to a political motivation :wink:

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  139. tom hunter (4,894 comments) says:

    Whenever I see blogs, websites etc labeled “The truth about …

    Generally that’s a fair point, given the number of dippy websites that are around. However in this specific case the site is a perfectly ordinary one that started years ago as a car review site – hence it’s somewhat humorous title. SInce then it’s expanded to being a full-blown specialist site on the car industry and as such, it has a large degree of practical inside understanding that financial and other blogs would not have.

    Simple as that and the way the world has turned. You need to get with the times Luc.

    Put some substance to your vitriol, my friend.

    I’ve done so several times, both with Krugman’s mendacity on deficits and on “bubbles”, and got no point-by-point counter arguments from you, anymore than I have here today on things like the GM problems. That’s hardly a surprise as you clearly have about the same 19th century understanding of economics and business as Obama does, combined with a desire to blurt assertions rather than make reasoned arguments. I think my favourite of yours was several years ago during some heated debate about countries competing with each other, where you made the supposedly argument-ending question: What if a country has no comparative advantage?

    That level of ignorance makes you easy prey for the likes of Krugman, not to mention his appeal to your far-left prejudices in favour of ever-higher government spending, higher taxes, and sticking it to capitalism.

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  140. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    I get into peer-reviewed stuff

    Peer reviewed by people with identical bias. “Like as for climate science” anyone who does not support the assumption, is removed from the review process.

    You may be impressed by your pretentions, but others are not Luc.

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  141. tom hunter (4,894 comments) says:

    After every round of QE, employment and the share market rose. When the Fed stopped spending money, both fell. I guess according to you this isn’t good enough real world evidence as you prefer your Fantasy Island stuff.

    Hey I just printed a trillion dollars and released it into the economy and look – the stock market has risen. Funny, that’s what people were saying about Greenspan and all his printed trillions. Housing prices have risen, people feel wealthier, so it’s time to spend, spend, spend. Even Jon Stewart gets it.

    Remember how I was telling you earlier about bubbles of false wealth based on created money. Tell me again which is Fantasy Island stuff.

    As for the rest of your ridiculous bile, take your pill, old chum. I lost track of what you were on about ages ago. But it’s very funny imagining the spittle dribbling down your chin while you bang on the keys!

    Heh, heh, heh. That Nazi Castro stuff must have burned your ass more than I thought.

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  142. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    NYT fact checks Tom on Detroit for me:

    “2:26 pm

    Jeremy W. PetersFact-Check: ‘Let Detroit Go Bankrupt’?

    Did Mitt Romney really say “Let Detroit Go Bankrupt”?

    Yes.

    Though he did not write the headline that continues to haunt him — that task fell to an editor – he did argue in a New York Times op-ed article that General Motors and Chrysler should go through a managed bankruptcy.

    But while those companies did ultimately file for bankruptcy, Mr. Romney’s claim ignores key facts about the automaker’s stability at the time.

    Detroit was so fragile at the time that without the government assistance it received before heading into a court-supervised bankruptcy process, it could have collapsed.

    At the time Mr. Romney wrote that article (he did not write the headline himself, but had to approve it per a New York Times policy allowing outside op-ed writers the chance to veto any editors’ changes), the financial markets had ground to a halt. It was November 2008, and there was little available liquidity for anyone seeking financing. There were certainly no financial institutions — not even Bain Capital, Mr. Romney’s private equity firm — looking to invest to the tune of the $80 billion the car companies needed at the time.

    No private companies would come to the industry’s aid, and the only path through bankruptcy would have been Chapter 7 liquidation, not the more orderly Chapter 11 reorganization that the company ultimately followed, people inside and outside the car companies have said.

    In fact, the task force asked Bain if it was interested in investing in General Motors’ European operations, according to one person with direct knowledge of the discussions.

    Bain declined, this person said, speaking anonymously to discuss private negotiations.”

    Points victory to me, I believe.

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  143. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    There you go again, Tom, confusing era’s, and no, your other stuff doesn’t bother me. I understand you are just having fun. And with your love of the IDF, I understand your fascination with their soul mates, the Nazis.

    But I asked above, where’s your beef, Tom, on the US economy? What’s your alternative to the current policies?

    I ‘ll check back tomorrow.

    Cheers.

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  144. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Detroit was so fragile at the time that without the government assistance it received before heading into a court-supervised bankruptcy process, it could have collapsed.

    It did collapse.

    If it did not collapse, then why was all that “government assistance” required ?

    It is interesting to look at all the donations Obama received from those same companies he latter bailed out to the tune of Trillions of dollars, creating a crippling burden on working Americans for generations to come.

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  145. Griff (7,808 comments) says:

    My opinion of the usa car industry pretty much matches toms.
    The unions (the same as killed the pom industry)and add in the protection of the right in allowing crap cheap fuel wasting dinosaur trucks. The volt is a waste of money excess electricity in the states is mostly produced by coal more electric cars = more coal burnt. Poor management that has been chasing the japs for decades yet is still a generation behind meanwhile the Koreans and chines are leapfrogging both
    I have driven a brand new cammaro huge heap of shit compared to say the lexus or even Mercedes that I drove straight after
    They deserve to go under propping them up is jut prolonging the pain.

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  146. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Griff is on about his bloody fuel dinosaurs again !!! :)

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  147. Griff (7,808 comments) says:

    Have you driven many new or newish yankee cars they remind me of ladas or skodas from the eighties
    rattle rattle clunk. I was looking at the specs for the latest HD yesterday has the same horsepower as from a Vincent in 1948 with half the ccs

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  148. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Funny that both Ladas and Yank-tanks were both made by Super Powers !

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  149. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Now we know that Luc Hansen is a sicko nudist who finds “eye candy…….” well, wherever.
    Sickening.
    cause that is what Luc has said.
    Luc is proud to be a nudist.
    How sad for Luc.

    What is Griffs excuse ?

    What is your excuse Griff ?

    By the way,
    cheers, Luc.

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  150. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Luc and Griff.
    Oh dear.

    Nuf said.

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  151. tom hunter (4,894 comments) says:

    Let Detroit Go Bankrupt”?

    We’re talking about GM, not Detroit, which is as broken a city as you can get. Not surprising after decades of being controlled by the Democrats, who brought into the Mayoralty, Coleman Young, an outright Black racist who hated whites and corporations in that order. You’d have loved him.

    Jeremy W. Peters Fact-Check:
    NYT

    Too funny. Of course you went with the NYT, funnily enough the media equivalent of GM in all respects.

    Points victory to me, I believe.

    Nothing like a person proclaiming their own victory. “Objective” no doubt.

    Once again you mistake argument for fact and half-truths for reasoning. Once again combined with your ignorance. Let me explain why, in this case, the NYT has pulled the wool over your eyes.

    the financial markets had ground to a halt. It was November 2008, and there was little available liquidity for anyone seeking financing. There were certainly no financial institutions — not even Bain Capital, Mr. Romney’s private equity firm — looking to invest to the tune of the $80 billion the car companies needed at the time.

    The financial markets were unfrozen very quickly by TARP and the car rescue was not quite that urgent. They’d been asking about this for months. And it was not an “investment”; the $80 billion was a straight out cover of the debts the companies had built up. But no company on the verge of bankruptcy is ever going to get that, that’s actually the whole point, which apparently Mr Peters and you don’t understand.

    No private companies would come to the industry’s aid, and the only path through bankruptcy would have been Chapter 7 liquidation, not the more orderly Chapter 11 reorganization that the company ultimately followed, people inside and outside the car companies have said.

    “people have said” – uh huh. We’re long past the day when anybody would trust an NYT writer with that line. But to repeat my first point, nobody – aside from idiot governments – will ever simply cover, at 100 cents on the dollar, the debts of a company nearing bankruptcy, so this whole line about how No private companies would come to the industry’s aid, does not automatically mean that Chapter 7 liquidation would happen. The whole idea of Chapter 11 is to get into it, get the creditor claims put on hold and then see what can be done – including negotiations over all those debts – not to wipe the debts and then go into Chapter 11. That simply makes the whole thing a mere legal formality rather than the re-structuring it was intended to be.

    And that’s why – according to Forbes magazine which, though biased in favour of capitalism, still has a credible reputation – GM is heading towards bankruptcy once again.

    Which brings me to the last of Peter’s points:

    In fact, the task force asked Bain if it was interested in investing in General Motors’ European operations, according to one person with direct knowledge of the discussions.

    Bain declined, this person said, speaking anonymously to discuss private negotiations.”

    Well of course they declined. As I said – only governments are (and were) stupid enough to do that, and the result is that they likely will have to do it all over again.

    Now it may be that GM cannot be saved. Perhaps they will have to be liquidated. But in that case it’s better to find out in 2008 than 2013 or 2014, after countless more billions are poured down the rathole.

    But what’s the point of me trying to explain this to someone like Luc Hansen or most other lefties – people who still think that Cullen’s purchase of Kiwirail was the correct thing to do. Talk about missing the bigger picture.

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  152. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Griff the human population is the problem so population reduction is the solution. On its own climate,change doesnt rate in the top 10 problems facing mankind. Packaged with overpopulation of course its number one.

    Wish I’d thought up trading in thin air though – great party joke taken on a life of its own.

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  153. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    My RSS feed just got a post through on the Nats changing the current designation of silks as SC back to QC. I can’t find it here- does anyone else have that problem?

    [DPF: I set the date wrong. Will reappear tomorrow. Good comments below. Copy them onto it when it reappears]

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  154. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    Oh well, I can’t be bothered waiting, so:

    To answer DPFs first question, the rank of QC was always restricted to barristers because they alone were ‘counsel’. In the UK they are actually two professions, with different societies, traditions and so on, although all fitting together under the term ‘lawyer’. One of the hallmarks of a QC is their independence. They have obligations to nobody because, as a barrister, they are self employed. Solicitors in a firm, on the other hand, have an obligation to their partners as well as an interest in keeping the client happy. The barrister, who is instructed by the solicitor and not the client, does not have that problem. Indeed, a barrister is not even allowed to sue for his/her fee, the payment of that being a matter of honour on the part of the instructing solicitor.

    Moreover, because of their role as counsel they really are considered to be far more learned than a solicitor. It is noticeable that, in the UK, when there is a question of law at a firm of solicitors or in a government department, an opinion will often be sought from counsel, that being a barrister. Solicitors often seem to hold barristers in something akin to awe over in the UK. As opposed to NZ, where solicitors often seem to view barristers, especially criminal specialists, as being something that they would wipe off their shoe.

    This is especially seen in the fact that while a solicitor should be referred to as a friend in court by both solicitors and barristers, a barrister is, instead, referred to as a ‘learned friend’. I think (from memory) that this has a lot to do with the fact that, historically, solicitors have not needed university degrees, being able to become solicitors by a system of apprenticeship known as ‘articles’. Barristers, on the other hand, were trained in the Inns of Court, with a focus on advocacy that solicitors did not have.

    New Zealand, of course, has a fused profession not because we are more enlightened but because we simply did not have enough of each profession in the early days. This required solicitors to act as barristers and vice versa, so it made sense to continue that. You will note that most of Aus still has split professions.

    I note that there has been a measure of integration in England and Wales that has had a relatively low take-up. Moreover, awards of silk are made to solicitors and academics as well, but even today they are not seen as really being QCs in the old fashioned sense. Harriet Harman was made a solicitor QC, for goodness sake, and she was, apparently useless.

    In NZ, the Labour government changed the designation over the objection of the legal profession. In changing it back, most lawyers (or at least those who are interested in it) will be supporting the government’s plans. Moreover, we support the reversion back to barristers sole for a couple or three reasons:
    1. The independence mentioned above is guaranteed by the fact that the Queen’s Counsel is a barrister sole.

    2. it shows that the barrister sole truly is a good advocate, being able to become a leader at the bar without being able rely upon the reputation or support of his law firm. It is possible for an average lawyer to look good within a very good law firm. That is not possible if the practitioner is a barrister sole. In that case their reputation rests solely upon themselves.

    3. With regards the defence bar, we also think that giving silk to solicitors will see the Attorney-General being able to reward his pet Crown Solicitors with silk, simply by dint of them having the warrant. Crown Solicitors are not appointed because they are really good criminal lawyers. They are generally appointed because they are a partner in the firm that has historically had the warrant for that area. Some haven’t even been practising as criminal lawyers prior to appointment! I know of one who was chosen to take the warrant by his firm because he was the newest partner and none of the others wanted it. Well, that is what he told me.

    I could keep on, but it is late, so will let it go here.

    I will just say that the change back to QCs is supported by the profession, and I personally think that any argument to keep it at SC is merely a republican stealth effort. Like getting rid of the Privy Council.

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  155. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    Just updating the above, I see that solicitors in England can be made ‘honorary’ QCs.

    I don’t agree that it is anti-competitive to have QCs limited to the Bar. After all, they are solely dependent upon solicitors for their custom, whereas partners in firms can go out and actually look for work. How that can be seen an advantage to the barristers is beyond me!

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  156. publicwatchdog (2,613 comments) says:

    Goodness me Graham – you must be psychedelic!?

    ;)

    Indeed I WAS outside the Auckland District Court today – supporting ‘ONE LAW FOR ALL’!

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/HOWCOME.jpg

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/JOHN-BANKS-RAT-WITH-GOLD-TOOTH-MORPH-BANNER-ONLY-23-September-2012.jpg

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Key1.jpg

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

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  157. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Hone must have been fairly pleased that Maori got “special treatment” from the government today. John Minto and I used to call it “institutionalised racism”. Personally penny I think hone is a much better catch for you than John, if you can land him.

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  158. publicwatchdog (2,613 comments) says:

    Thank you Kevin – but I’m all sorted :)

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

    PS: Did you like the banners?

    :)

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  159. questions (208 comments) says:

    Jack5
    “Is it correct that the Crown Prosecutor and the defence between them made a deal that the evidence of two psychiatrists should be accepted?”

    No.
    P.S. you are a fuck wit.

    bereal
    “If ‘Judge” McNaughton had done his job Christie may still be alive.”

    Did the police appeal the decision? if not, had they done their job Christie Marceau might still be alive.
    P.S. you too are a fuck wit.

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  160. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    MSM in the tank with the Messiah: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/oct/17/curl-crowley-skews-hard-obama-disastrous-debate/

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  161. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    The greedy Stone Agers moan and want the Crown to apologise (and more money, of course):

    The Government has been found to have breached the Treaty of Waitangi by failing to support Maori-language early childhood centres.

    The Waitangi Tribunal finds that the kohanga reo movement – established in the 1980s to help save the language – suffered because of government policy and funding decisions.

    In a ruling published today, the tribunal says the Government should apologise to the Kohanga Reo Trust, promote attendance among Maori families, and create a policy and funding regime specifically for kohanga reo.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/7830595/Crown-failed-kohanga-reo-says-tribunal

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