General Debate 18 October 2012

October 18th, 2012 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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174 Responses to “General Debate 18 October 2012”

  1. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    Umm…

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  2. Keeping Stock (10,182 comments) says:

    Charles Chauvel has swallowed a dead rat, and dropped his amendment to exempt unions from the Lobbying Disclosure Bill. And he’s done it adeptly; so much so that it has flown way under the radar.

    Sp perhaps he needs to be conducting dead rat swallowing clinics for his caucus colleagues, with a private tutorial for David Shearer…

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2012/10/charles-dead-rat.html

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  3. BlueGriffon (204 comments) says:

    Shame on you TVNZ! The 8am news on Breakfast ran a British sourced item on the debate and most of it was in regards to Libya/Rose Garden. They showed the moderator agreeing with Obama re ‘acts of terror’. The voice over then said something along the lines of ‘another gaffe from Romney’.

    Candy Crowley has since been on CNN stating that her fact checking was incorrect and indeed Romney was right. No mention of this was made on Breakfast.

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  4. Pete George (23,346 comments) says:

    Bill English was not only premature threatening a rare veto if the 26 week Paid Parental Bill gets through Parliament as looks likley, but it also looks like he may have grossly exaggerated the cost.

    And National’s coalition partner Peter Dunne has joined the criticism.

    Dunne challenges National again

    Leader Peter Dunne said he could not explain the discrepancy of Mr English’s estimate. “But it’s a pretty massive one.”

    “To announce the veto prior to the bill actually proceeding through Parliament is I think premature and wrong.”

    “I think that will, and should cause some reconsideration of whether the veto is applied. My view has always been that to announce the veto prior to the bill actually proceeding through to parliament is, I think, premature and wrong.”

    Member’s bills imposing costs on Government are an issue but English has (again) shown an arrogance (and possible major inaccuracy or misleading) threatening a veto before the bill has gone through proper parliamentary process.

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  5. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    What ? Maori slamming the Govt for not supporting maori language?? Ya gota be joking..dont we waste 100 million a year on the stone age lingo? Do maori EVER stop complaining?

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  6. Elaycee (4,333 comments) says:

    Some people are clearly thick….

    Sanitarium in CHC was hit by the earthquakes and production of Marmite has been disrupted – all well documented. In August, a moron imports a pallet of product from the UK with the intention of passing it off here in NZ as ‘Marmite’ – but he forgot to do his homework.

    The trademark for ‘Marmite’ is owned in NZ by…. Sanitarium. So (quite correctly) they exercise their rights and tell this moron that he would be in breach of trademark (passing off) and he cannot sell his product in NZ under the Marmite name. Indeed, Sanitarium even offered suggestions how he could sell it without infringing the Sanitarium owned trademark.

    But no…. moron tries to push ahead with the Marmite name / similar themes, so Sanitarium files in the High Court (and no surprise at all, they win). The most likely outcome is that this moron will have to take his illegal product to the tip and pay to have it crushed.

    So the moron has now run off to the media – in the hope that he will somehow garner sympathy. And it even makes TV!!! But all it’s confirmed is that this moron didn’t do his homework in the first place and thought it was OK to import a product and sell it as Marmite in NZ – all in breach of a registered NZ trademark. Unlucky.

    And if I was the CEO of Sanitarium, I would have taken exactly the same action to protect my registered brand name. And I’d also seek costs….

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/7827685/Sanitarium-wants-rival-Marmite-shipment-destroyed

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  7. Lance (2,565 comments) says:

    @elaycee
    Wouldn’t be so bloody bad if the friggin NZ Marmite was on sale, like in the foreseeable future.

    I cant believe the arrogance of Sanitarium buggering about so long. They clearly think they can take their customers for granted.

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  8. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    Sanitarium get no sympathy from me. They are registered as a charity so pay very little, if any tax. What a rort. We dont purchase any Sanitarium products in our household.

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  9. Tauhei Notts (1,651 comments) says:

    Update from Betfair
    Barack $1.42
    Romney $3.30

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  10. Lance (2,565 comments) says:

    @liarbors a joke
    We try our best at the Sanitarium ban, but I have a weakness for their Marmite. The alternatives just don’t cut it, sigh.
    But yes their tax free status is a joke.

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  11. questions (186 comments) says:

    Pete George:
    Bill English was not only premature threatening a rare veto if the 26 week Paid Parental Bill gets through Parliament as looks likley, but it also looks like he may have grossly exaggerated the cost.

    This is not new, it is has been known for weeks if not months that English and Co were over estimating the costs, they even asked treasury to do so.

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  12. Lance (2,565 comments) says:

    @questions
    Who cares?
    The nation still can’t afford it.

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  13. Elaycee (4,333 comments) says:

    @Lance: Agree…. our household also looks forward to the return of the real deal, rather than Vegemite. :D

    @LAJ: The tax status has been in place for decades – my point was more in relation to the moron who thought it OK to bring in a product with the intention of passing it off against a brand that holds a registered trademark.

    But I have sympathy for any CHC manufacturer who is still feeling the effects of the quakes. Whilst all manufacturers have disaster recovery plans, we all hope that they are never put to the test in real life. In the case of Sanitarium, I heard the delay was due to damage to a unique item used in the manufacturing process… apparently it isn’t an item that can be purchased ‘off the shelf’.

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  14. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    Recipe for marmite..take 1 litre of used engine sump oil, add tablespoon of salt and boil for 10 minutes. Reduce heat and simmer for one hour. Refrigerate. There ya go.

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  15. Pete George (23,346 comments) says:

    questions – I know, I’ve commented on it before, it happens to have come up in the news again.

    Lance – the nation can’t afford what? Can’t afford to let bills go to select committee and properly cost them?

    If we don’t know the true costs we don’t know if we can afford it or not. We don’t know if the nation can afford the possible overall cost of MOM share floats, that hasn’t stopped English from letting that go to select committee and beyond.

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  16. Fletch (6,151 comments) says:

    BlueGriffon, I know, sux…

    On the positive side, Romney’s supposed correction (which Candy has now backtracked) is going to draw even more attention to Obama’s foreign policy failure and Libya.

    Frank Luntz had a debate group (watch video) of voters, some of whom voted for Obama in 2008 and have now changed.

    A Frank Luntz focus group made up mostly of former Obama voters say they now support Mitt Romney.

    “Forceful, compassionate, presidential,” one participant said.
    “Confident and realistic,” said another.
    “Presidential,” another told Luntz.
    “Enthusiastic,” another reacted.
    “Our next president,” one man said.
    “Dynamo, winner,” said one more.

    “He’s lied about everything. He lied to get elected in 2008, that’s why I voted for him. I bought his bull. And he’s lied about everything, he hasn’t come through on anything. And he’s been bullshitting the public,” one member of the focus group said.

    http://patdollard.com/2012/10/luntz-debate-focus-group-of-obama-voters-undecideds-mostly-choose-romney/

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  17. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    @Elaycee

    One year…30 years , it doesn’t make it right. How / why does a major manufacturing company achieve tax-free status. I don’t understand it. Why cant I register as a charity and stop paying PAYE?

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  18. publicwatchdog (2,294 comments) says:

    Good moaning Kiwibloggers!

    :)

    Sink your wee gums into this one?

    IS PRIME MINISTER JOHN KEY GOING TO HOLD THE ‘NOT-SO-HONOURABLE’ JOHN BANKS, MINISTER FOR REGULATORY REFORM AND SMALL BUSINESS ACCOUNTABLE FOR NOT UPHOLDING, AND BE SEEN TO BE UPHOLDING – THE ‘HIGHEST ETHICAL STANDARDS’?

    http://www.cabin etmanual.cabinetoffice.govt.nz/2.50

    Conduct of Ministers

    2.52A Minister of the Crown, while holding a ministerial warrant, acts in a number of different capacities:

    in a ministerial capacity, making decisions, and determining and promoting policy within particular portfolios; in a political capacity as a member of Parliament, representing a constituency or particular community of interest; in a personal capacity.

    2.53 In all these roles and at all times, Ministers are expected to act lawfully and to behave in a way that upholds, and is seen to uphold, the highest ethical standards. Ultimately, Ministers are accountable to the Prime Minister for their behaviour.

    ______________________________________________________________________________

    GRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader—Labour) to the Prime Minister: Does he have confidence in Hon John Banks; if so, why?

    Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister) : Yes; because he is a hard-working Minister.

    Grant Robertson: Is it still his policy, as he told media on 30 April this year, that a Minister who lies or misleads about his actions would lose his confidence as Prime Minister?

    Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Yes.

    Grant Robertson: Does he think Mr Banks has met this standard, after he told the New Zealand Herald on 14 September that the police were responsible for his witness statement being withheld when, in fact, it was he who asked for it to be withheld?

    Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I have no knowledge of that. That is a matter for the Minister.

    Grant Robertson: I seek the leave of the House to table a letter from David P H Jones QC, Mr Banks’ lawyer, to the New Zealand Police, dated 10 August 2012, which says that disclosure of any material relating to Mr Banks is opposed.

    ____________________________________________________________________________

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10833914

    “Detective Inspector Mark Benefield, who led the investigation, said: “I … enclose the statements of those witnesses who authorised disclosure.” Mr Banks’ statement was not included.

    Police chief media adviser Grant Ogilvie said police sought permission from those interviewed before releasing statements. “The disclosures that were made were based on consent of those asked. That includes Mr Banks.”

    Mr Banks said it was the police who decided keep his statement under wraps.

    Press secretary Shelley Mackey said: “Mr Banks is not responsible for what the police have released.”

    _____________________________________________________________________________

    Does NZ Prime Minister John Key believe that this apparent LIE from the arguably ‘Not-so-Honourable’ John Banks – Minister of Regulatory Reform; Minister of Small Business; Associate Minister of Commerce and Associate Minister of Education – is behaviour ‘that upholds, and is seen to uphold, the highest ethical standards’?

    Yes or no?

    If NO – how is John Banks – Minister of Regulatory Reform; Minister of Small Business; Associate Minister of Commerce and Associate Minister of Education going to be held accountable to the Prime Minister for his behaviour?

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/JOHN-BANKS-RAT-WITH-GOLD-TOOTH-MORPH-BANNER-ONLY-23-September-2012.jpg

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

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  19. Fisiani (996 comments) says:

    Does anyone know when Winston’s tantrum motion of no confidence in Lockwood will be heard?

    PS Dont feed the troll….

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  20. flipper (3,847 comments) says:

    Fletch..
    Yep, spot on.
    And the latest (this morning ) Gallup, nationwide tracking poll shows Romney at more than 50 % and with a 6%+ lead over Obama.
    Obama has never been ABOVE 50 per cent, and The Libya nonsense will also uncoil and strike Obama – hard.

    Crowley ? Biased, incompetent, especially since she was told that she was required, by agreement between Obama and Romney, NIOT to intervene.

    Game, set and ….?

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  21. graham (2,285 comments) says:

    Fisiani, could be fun to listen to!

    Good old Winston – he certainly livens the place up. (Not sure if that’s a great reason for having him there, however …)

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  22. publicwatchdog (2,294 comments) says:

    Charles CHAUVEL
    Labour List MP
    Justice Spokesperson

    17 October 2012 MEDIA STATEMENT

    10 years of promoting good governance and the rule of law

    The Global Organization of Parliamentarians Against Corruption (GOPAC) celebrates its 10th anniversary today.

    A worldwide alliance of parliamentarians working together to combat corruption, strengthen good government, and uphold the rule of law, the first GOPAC conference in Canada brought together over 150 parliamentarians, 100-plus observers and parliamentary staff to discuss issues of corruption, parliamentary oversight and effective governance.

    A New Zealand chapter, chaired by Labour MP and Justice spokesperson, Charles Chauvel, was established earlier this year.

    “I want to commend the members of the New Zealand chapter for their support, and encourage them to remain dedicated to the fight against corruption,” Charles Chauvel said.

    “I invite my Parliamentary colleagues to take the opportunity to celebrate the organisation’s 10th anniversary and call on the government to recognize this significant event with all parliamentarians.”

    “The battle to ensure good governance and the elimination of corruption is a long and arduous one but we know with the continued support and hard work of our members, we can bring about change.

    “We look forward to another decade of promoting good governance and the rule of law,” said Charles Chauvel.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________________

    HERE IS AN ACTION PLAN TO PREVENT CORRUPTION – ‘WHITE COLLAR’ CRIME & ‘CORPORATE WELFARE’ THAT THE NEW ZEALAND CHAPTER OF THE GLOBAL ORGANISATION OF PARLIAMENTARIANS AGAINST CORRUPTION MIGHT CARE TO CONSIDER?

    1. Get our anti-corruption domestic legislative framework in place so NZ can ratify the UN Convention Against Corruption.

    2. Set up an NZ independent anti-corruption body tasked with educating the public and PREVENTING corruption.

    3. Change NZ laws to ensure genuine transparency in the funding of candidates for elected public office and political parties at central and local government level.

    4. Legislate for an enforceable ‘Code of Conduct’ for NZ Members of Parliament (who make the rules for everyone else).

    5. Make it an offence under the Local Government Act 2002 for NZ Local Government elected representatives to breach their ‘Code of Conduct’.

    6. Make it a lawful requirement for a publicly-available ‘Register of Interests’ for NZ Local Government elected representatives.

    7. Make it a lawful requirement for a publicly-available ‘Register of Interests’ for NZ Central Government staff responsible for property and procurement, (including the Ministry of Health), in order to help prevent ‘conflicts of interest’.

    8. Make it a lawful requirement for a publicly-available ‘Register of Interests’ for NZ Local Government staff, and Directors and staff employed by ‘Council-Controlled Organisations (CCOs) responsible for property and procurement.

    9. Make it a lawful requirement for details of ‘contracts issued’ – including the name of the contractor; scope, term and value of the contract to be published in NZ Central Government Public Sector, and Local Government (Council), and ‘Council-Controlled Organisation (CCO) Annual Reports so that they are available for public scrutiny.

    10. Make it a lawful requirement that a ‘cost-benefit analysis’ of NZ Central Government, and Local Government public finances be undertaken to prove that private procurement of public services previously provided ‘in-house’ is cost-effective for the public majority. If not – then return public service provision to staff directly employed ‘in-house’ and cut out these private contractors who are effectively dependent on ‘corporate welfare’.

    11. Legislate for a legally-enforcable ‘Code of Conduct’ for members of the NZ Judiciary, to ensure they are not ‘above the law’.

    12. Ensure that ALL NZ Court proceedings are recorded, and audio records made available to parties who request them.

    13. Make it a lawful requirement for a publicly-available NZ Judicial ‘Register of Interests’, to help prevent ‘conflicts of interest’.

    14. Make it a lawful requirement for a publicly-available NZ ‘Register of Lobbyists’ and ‘Code of Conduct for Lobbyists’ at Central Government Ministerial level.

    15. Make it a lawful requirement at NZ Central and Local Government level for a ‘post-separation employment quarantine’ period from the time officials leave the public service to take up a similar role in the private sector. (Help stop the ‘revolving door’).

    16. Make it a lawful requirement that it is only a binding vote of the public majority that can determine whether public assets held at NZ Central or Local Government level are sold; or long-term leased via Public-Private –Partnerships (PPPs).

    17. Make it unlawful for politicians to knowingly misrepresent their policies prior to election at central or local government
    level.

    18. Make laws to protect individuals, NGOs and community-based organisations who are ‘whistleblowing’ against ‘conflicts of interest’ and corrupt practices at central and local government level and within the judiciary.

    19. Legislate to help stop ‘State Capture’, a form of ‘grand corruption’ arguably endemic in NZ – where vested interests get their way at the ‘policy level’ before legislation is passed which serves their interests.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Perhaps a good starting point for NZ Parliamentarians might be:

    4. Legislate for an enforceable ‘Code of Conduct’ for NZ Members of Parliament (who make the rules for everyone else)?

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

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  23. hj (6,748 comments) says:

    Kohanga reo’s problems started in the 1990′s when they were moved into a “western framework”

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon

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  24. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    I totally agree with the waitangi tribunal re early maori education.

    The government should apologise for ever setting up such a separatist organisation which has shown no improvement for maori at all. It should eb closed down immediately and maori children whose future is being wasted in these Te Reo waste holes being put into normal education so that they can become normal contributing members of society.

    there are 9000 of them being educated in a aparthied institution – and they wonder why these kids are falling behind.

    Idiots.

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  25. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    What happened to this technology?

    It was announced four years ago – and
    then nothing.

    Video:

    http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/20645.html

    Daniel G. Nocera, the Henry Dreyfus Professor of Energy at MIT, has developed a simple method to split water molecules and produce oxygen gas, a discovery that paves the way for widespread use of solar power.

    With this technology, each home would be able to produce all the electricity it needs not only to run the household, but also to power a car.

    So where is it and why isn’t this news?

    And what’s happened since?

    In 2010, he signed with something called the Tata Group of India to commercialize his research. Then in 2012 Harvard hired him away from MIT.

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  26. hj (6,748 comments) says:

    Treaty beliefs, in their own words (Constitutional review panel)
    Co-chair Sir Tipene [Ronald] O’Regan:

    “The Treaty is the foundation of our polity and of the political unit that is us.”

    “The economy has been built on taking and dispossessing of Maori assets, and after dispossession you are telling what the problem of the dispossessed is. I have devoted myself to regaining the dispossessed core capital.”

    “Letters to the editor often talk about Maori having special rights under Article 2, and the same rights as everyone else under Article 3. Yes, Maori get a “double lick”, and they are entitled to it because that was the promise of the Treaty: to Pakeha, the right to be here and the power of the state, basically conveying cultural control.” (2)

    Deborah Coddington:

    “In terms of financial wealth, Australia is financially better off, but they could learn something from us in terms of respecting tangata whenua. Yes, the English ripped off the Maori, too, when it came to getting them to sign the Treaty of Waitangi. Henry Williams deliberately mistranslated from Maori to English to protect his land holdings, and numerous other travesties were perpetrated.”

    “Last week, Philip Ruddock, a former minister in John Howard’s government, gave one of the most contorted and convoluted reasons I’ve seen for abolishing the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission. In essence, he should have just come out and admitted he’s a bigot and doesn’t believe that Australia’s first people have a place in Australia’s constitution. Incredible as it may seem, Aborigines and Torres Straits Islanders are still not included in Australia’s constitution. There’s no reference to these people in the country’s founding document, more than 111 years after Queen Victoria gave her assent to Australia’s constitution in 1900, despite the fact Australia supports the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People.” (3)

    //
    Emeritus Professor Ranginui Walker:

    Walker is a treasure trove of quotes since he is a prolific writer. A clue to his beliefs may be seen in the titles of his books, which include Perceptions and Attitudes of the New Generation of Maoris to Pakeha Domination, Liberating Maori from Educational Subjection, and Ka Whawhai Tonu Matou / Struggle Without End, the last line of which reads “(Maori) know the sun has set on the empire that colonised them. They know too it will set on the coloniser even if it takes a thousand years. They will triumph in the end because they are tangata whenua.” :roll:

    http://www.nzcpr.com/ConstitutionalReviewBACKGROUND.htm

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  27. Fletch (6,151 comments) says:

    Plus, Michelle Obama broke the rules of the debate and clapped….

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  28. tom hunter (4,568 comments) says:

    BlueGriffon, I know, sux…

    But to my great surprise and pleasure, after years of hammering Radio NZ and Morning Report for the bias they employ on covering the USA, this morning they actually interviewed a right-wing political blogger from the USA about the debate, as well as the usual liberal. The blogger was Dan Reihl from Riehl World View.com.

    His is not a blog I visit very much and he’s not a radio guy – but kudos to Morning Report. Let’s have more like that. Hell, get Jonah Goldberg from NRO.

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  29. Colville (2,191 comments) says:

    hinamanu,

    he signed with something called the Tata Group of India

    that “something” owns jaguar and landrover and employs 400,000 !.

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  30. Griff (7,008 comments) says:

    http://www.dogandlemon.com/articles/emperors-new-world
    Say it better than I can

    Hydrogen

    One should bear in mind that hydrogen is not a form of energy; it’s a means of storing energy. Hydrogen acts as a bank account: the bank account doesn’t produce the money, it simply stores it. For every hundred dollars you put into your energy bank account you get a percentage back. Although in theory you could produce hydrogen at up to 90% efficiency, real world efficiency is as low as 50%. In other words it is like putting $100 into a bank account and getting about $50 back: it doesn’t represent value for money.

    Scientists around the planet are trying to solve this problem, but with the best will in the world, they’re only going to reduce the losses, not stop them. Thus, in an ideal world you might even get $90 back for every $100 you put into your hydrogen account, but you would still have to have the energy in the first place.

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  31. hj (6,748 comments) says:

    hinamanu (1,634):

    Maybe it’s a case of empty vessels make the most noise? I.e. if you need to make a lot of noise to attract funding, you’re probably a few crucial steps away from your goal.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120509123900.htm

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  32. TheContrarian (1,082 comments) says:

    @BlueGriffon and @Fletch

    No, Crowley never said such a thing neither backtrack:
    http://bit.ly/TcUh9d

    Not to mention Obama did refer to the attack as an act of terror the very next day which is in the transcripts.

    Romney fluffed that part – is it so hard to admit?

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  33. Lance (2,565 comments) says:

    @hinamanu
    Sorry but you need an energy source.
    Water is an ash, so to liberate the hydrogen and oxygen you need to replace the ‘electric’ bonds with free electrons, like from electricity or some other energetic chemical process.
    There just aint no free rides, no greater than unity power generation, water powered cars etc. despite all the conspiracy theories about oil companies buying all this up or murdering hapless inventors.
    So unless it is some new form of nuclear energy then it is actually at best just tinkering with what we already have.

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  34. Ed Snack (1,801 comments) says:

    Contrarian, yes “an act of terror”, but not, mark you, a terrorist attack. There is a difference, the context of Obama’s “Rose Garden” speech was most definitely not about terrorist acts, it took 2 weeks before it was acknowledged as an act by terrorists. His administration spent over a week trying to push the fake story about the video, even sending out the US UN Ambassador to push that line a week later.

    Romney was quite correct and the Debate Moderator was completely wrong to have intervened and has since acknowledged that. Why does Obama need so much protection from the moderators at each debate ?

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  35. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8549877/iwi-shares-offer-bloody-insult-harawira

    Greedy stoneagers..” we want it all..we want it all !”. Get back in ya log and fuck off back to where you came from harawira you horrible acidic nasty piece of …

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  36. TheContrarian (1,082 comments) says:

    “yes “an act of terror”, but not, mark you, a terrorist attack.”

    An act of terror but not a terrorist act?

    yes the moderator shouldn’t have jumped in and the administration fucked the response but really, Romney was incorrect and he knew it – you could hear him stuttering and mumbling almost immediately afterwards.

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  37. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Left-wing rag going broke: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/media/9614953/Guardian-seriously-discussing-end-to-print-edition.html

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  38. tom hunter (4,568 comments) says:

    Not to mention Obama did refer to the attack as an act of terror the very next day which is in the transcripts.

    No he did not. He made a generic reference:

    No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for. Today we mourn four more Americans who represent the very best of the United States of America. We will not waver in our commitment to see that justice is done for this terrible act. And make no mistake, justice will be done.

    No acts of terror in the context of that paragraph is as generic as one can get. And the overall context of the President’s reaction and that of the rest of his administration is that the whole thing was a “spontaneous reaction” to the YouTube movie trailer, as shown by Susan Rice’s talking points on five Sunday talk shows five days later, where she insisted that the attacks were simply the result of protests that had spun out of control. President Obama himself made the same argument when he went on The View, where he would not define Benghazi as a terrorist act. His press secretary made exactly the same point, while hedging about not yet knowing all the facts.

    Does that really sound like a person who thinks that Benghazi was a terrorist attack?

    Their narrative was ludicrous even 24 hours after the attack, when foreign journalists for papers as widely varied as the Daily Telegraph, Independent and Der Spiegel, were already reporting that their sources in Libya and in the State Department and American intelligence services, were telling them that the nature of the attack itself showed it was organised, with heavy weapons and military tactics employed. The President of Libya himself was saying that a day after the attack.

    The real question at the time was why the Obama Administration was even bothering to continue with such an obviously stupid storyline. But they stuck to that talking point for two full weeks until all of them, from the President on down, were forced to acknowledge in public what they must have known in private – that it was a specific act of terrorism. That’s the coverup – and of course it’s now unwinding even more as lower-level people in the State Department come forward to reporters describing what they were seeing in real time, perhaps best summed up by this exchange:

    QUESTION: Hi, yes. You described several incidents you had with groups of men, armed men. What in all of these events that you’ve described led officials to believe for the first several days that this was prompted by protests against the video?

    SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL TWO: That is a question that you would have to ask others. That was not our conclusion. I’m not saying that we had a conclusion, but we outlined what happened.

    I don’t think they or anybody from the CIA/NSA is going to allow themselves to be thrown under the bus like that. And of course it raises the simple question of how it’s possible for all this information, including camera footage, can make it’s way to the State Department in D.C. and then not make the simple hop across to the Oval Office.

    Will see how Romney handles this in the next debate, which is going to be all about foreign policy. From my perspective he probably did not think Obama would try on such a bullshit piece of parsing. He’ll know better next time, but that’s hardly a gaffe – and I say that as somebody who has little time for him.

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  39. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Ed Snack,

    You know you’ve lost when you start attacking the moderator. Awwww, better luck next time. :)

    But seriously, what ridiculous desperation on the part of Republicans. Going by your logic when the president said:

    “Of course, yesterday was already a painful day for our nation as we marked the solemn memory of the 9/11 attacks.”

    Oh my gosh… he didn’t use the words terror in between “9/11″ and “attacks” therefore Obama doesn’t consider the 9/11 attacks to be terror attacks!! :roll:

    Although then he did say:

    “No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for. Today we mourn four more Americans who represent the very best of the United States of America. We will not waver in our commitment to see that justice is done for this terrible act. And make no mistake, justice will be done.”

    Republicans are nuts if they think parsing that statement is going to win them votes.

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  40. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    His own words will haunt the Messiah: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/post/more-evidence-of-deception/2012/10/17/2a4a26c6-1870-11e2-a55c-39408fbe6a4b_blog.html

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  41. tom hunter (4,568 comments) says:

    It’s not Republicans Obama has to worry about anymore on this issue – it’s all the State Department and intelligence agency people he and Hillary are hanging out to dry.

    But the way Obama and company have gone about this from day one has actually made things worse. Had they been open and up-front about it from day one they’d merely be stuck with questions about why the security requests had not been met, which is a tough but arguable issue.

    As it is, they’re forced to keep talking and talking and talking about this – with people like the idiot Joe Biden making things worse with his crucial claim that “we didn’t know”.

    I think the following sums it up very well:

    Did he call it an act of terror and go around misleading the country for two weeks that it was a spontaneous reaction to the anti-Muslim movie? Or did he not call it terror on Sept. 12 and lie to the voters last night?

    We’ll see how well Obama parses what people saw with their own eyes on TV from him and his officials.

    Oh – and the video guy is still in jail.

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  42. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I’m with Tom on this one.

    Obama has adroitly missed being steamrollered on this only by Romney’s ineptitude and he deserves to get nailed next week.

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  43. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Yes, Lucy. The incompetent Obama will be nailed next week.

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  44. Akaroa (552 comments) says:

    Browsing through these posts this morning My eye was caught by a mention of Sir Tipene O’Regan. I have considerable admiration for this gentleman, and I’ll tell you why. When I first emigrated to this fair land in 1974 I was keen to learn everything I could about its history, society and public attitudes. My son was at school in Wellington with – I believe – a relative of Sir Tipene’s and, social activity being what it is, I came to meet him in a ‘adult-involvement-in-our-children’s-activities’ sort of context.

    He was simple Steve O’Regan in those days. And I have to admit that part of my admiration for him is by virtue of his – (I may be wrong) – subsequently latching on to the Maori self-determination thing, and making a relatively successful career of it.

    At that time I knew nothing of NZ history vis-a-vis the Maori, and I asked Steve for a reading list so that I could get up to speed on the Maori, Maori culture and the history of the Maori tribes who had emigrated – as I had(!) – to NZ. Al;though much earlier!! Consequently I was introduced by him to some fairly useful and erudite references. I guess I was looking for parallels with English history. Well there weren’t any – or precious few – but I began to see ‘where Maori were coming from” so to speak.

    At the same time, in my interaction with my Kiwi work colleagues – true Kiwis mainly – I was getting a ‘street level’ view of Maori. You know what that is: “Lazy bludgers, jail-fodder, etc., etc.. I found it curious that the people putting that view were otherwise decent, upright sensible individuals, and ‘cradle Kiwis’.

    So where did these two divergent – nay, contradictory – views leave me? Well, my view, after thirty four years in this fair land, is that its about time people of both races shut up about demonising each other, and, instead. got on with trying to be a homogenous cooperative and productive society dedicated to the improvement of the lot of every one of us. I know there are rat-bag Pakeha, and, equally, there are rat-bag Maori, but we/they ain’t all like that!!

    Well that’s all i wanted to say. (And before some wise-guy asks, no, I do not also believe in the tooth fairy!!)

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  45. tom hunter (4,568 comments) says:

    There’s this as well from the debate last night, where Obama outlined what he claims he did at the time:

    … Number two, investigate exactly what happened, regardless of where the facts lead us, to make sure that folks are held accountable and it doesn’t happen again. And number three, we are going to find out who did this, and we are going to hunt them down, …

    Tough! Decisive! What one wants in a President.

    The only problem here is that it’s tough to investigate when the burned consulate was left unsecured for weeks, to the extent that a CNN reporter could just waltz into the burned wreck and pick up Ambassador Steven’s diary.

    Maybe Obama was not that clear and decisive on the phone call – or maybe even his own people are no longer listening to him, like the rest of the country.

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  46. Redbaiter (8,032 comments) says:

    Obama is back??

    Hahhaha..

    BEGIN TRANSCRIPT RUSH: And we have the new Gallup poll, the Daily Presidential Tracking Poll, the rolling average poll, seven days, and Romney is pulling ahead now 51-45. It was 50-46 yesterday, now 51-45 in the Gallup Daily Presidential Tracking Poll. Now, the way I have it, six points, 45 and six would be 51. That’s right. Notice how quickly I did that, 51-45, Gallup daily tracking, Romney up over Obama. Something is happening out there, folks. BREAK TRANSCRIPT RUSH: Thirty minutes ago, I told you that the Gallup poll was out and that it has Romney up now six…

    http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2012/10/17/barack_is_back_romney_lead_widens_to_six_51_45_in_gallup_daily_tracking_poll

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  47. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I’d like to touch on an aspect of the behaviour of the debate worm on CNN.

    Romney was talking about his opposition to new gun restrictions when somehow he wandered into a theory of parenting as a panacea for gun crime. His worm went from slightly positive to very positive as he introduced the topic. Then he started a rant about the evils of single parent families.

    Now here’s the thing, both men and women’s worms dropped but as he continued the yellow worm (women) recovered while the green worm (men) stayed low and and even dipped into negative as Romney got into his stride praising two parent families.

    I’m not being critical of anyone here, just curious as to why the worms behaved in this way and what it says about the American dream. Have the men given up on stable families?

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  48. Pete George (23,346 comments) says:

    Akaroa:

    Well, my view, after thirty four years in this fair land, is that its about time people of both races shut up about demonising each other, and, instead got on with trying to be a homogenous cooperative and productive society dedicated to the improvement of the lot of every one of us. I know there are rat-bag Pakeha, and, equally, there are rat-bag Maori, but we/they ain’t all like that!!

    No, we ain’t all like that. I think most people would support working towards “a homogenous cooperative and productive society” and many work this way now, but mostly quietly, while the noise from some rat-bags gets most of the attention.

    If more people (like Akaroa) speak up about the majority of good people and good things being done and achieved then we will progress towards a better society – working together but also accepting differences.

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  49. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Manolo (7,843) Says:
    October 18th, 2012 at 10:57 am
    Yes, Lucy. The incompetent Obama will be nailed next week.

    It’s so nice to be able to agree with you, Manolo. You must try seeing things my way more often, old chap.

    Jeez, first Tom then you finding common ground with me! What’s going on in the world today.

    I better fuck off to the gym and reflect on this.

    But first, a treat for Tom, given his love of death squads:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/08/mitt-romney-death-squads-bain_n_1710133.html

    And a little lesson in the difference between recessions and financial crisis:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-15/sorry-u-s-recoveries-really-aren-t-different.html

    Of course, beware of the source of the second link: that bastion of PolPotism, Bloomburg.

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  50. TheContrarian (1,082 comments) says:

    Rush Limbaugh? What an awful shit bag he is.

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  51. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    “a homogenous cooperative and productive society”

    Pete, Pete, tell me it ain’t so, mate.

    You can’t be serious!

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  52. tom hunter (4,568 comments) says:

    But first, a treat for Tom, given his love of death squads:

    Pssst Luc. Let it go. Just accept that Fidel Castro, one of your Far-Left heroes, used Nazis.

    And then let it go. The pain will stop after a while!

    Oh, and for once you did ask a solid, sensible question yesterday: what do I think the US government and the Fed should do about their economic situation? I will get to that, just not quickly.

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  53. Pete George (23,346 comments) says:

    Luc – depends on what level you want to look at it. We can have an overall fairly homogenous New Zealand culture that is tolerant of a variety of sub-cultures within that. The culture I live in now in Dunedin is very different from the rural South Island culture I grew up in, and also very different from the culture I lived in when I was in Auckland.

    But over the top of that is a common Kiwiness that we should recognise and be mainly proud of.

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  54. Ed Snack (1,801 comments) says:

    Weihana, you can’t be serious ! The moderator of the debate jumped into an exchange and backed Obama by stating something untrue, something she later acknowledged to be untrue. In what way is that “blaming the moderator”. I point out that she intervened improperly to bail-out Obama. Obama lied and she backed up the lie.

    Because this lie has been exposed and it keeps the story around even longer it isn’t all positive for the Democrats, but impressions are important, and at least some people will have been persuaded that Obama’s lie was not, in fact, the lie that it was.

    I think that the Benghazi attack response was an A grade fuckup, and the US Administration should be exposed for their extremely political and lame attempt at a coverup. I’d think that of ANY administration. It seems to me that the left though has two standards, if this had been a, say G W Bush administration then the screams of how incompetent it all was would still be echoing around the MSM, but as it’s Obama, nothing to see here, move along, just a video, nothing to see…

    A good example is the “Mission Accomplished” banner on the USS Constitution that was displayed behind Bush, the MSM and the left all went batshit over this premature proclamation on Iraq. The real story is that the banner was actually in honour of the crew of Constitution which had just completed the longest single active service deployment of any US Navy ship, over 1,000 days. It may have been unfortunate to allow the banner to be seen in the context, but the original meaning did not apply to Iraq. However the left and the MSM narrative entirely dominated the reporting and it was a often used as a telling point aginst Bush’s handling of Iraq, still quoted today. Now, had that been Obama, not only would the real story have been emphasized, but had anyone tried to make the link they would have been shouted down as a racist. Double standards, so don’t preach about “blaming the moderator” when a known Democratic sympathizing moderator steps into the debate and makes untrue allegations to back up Obama.

    And read Tom Hunter’s post, sets out the context clearly !

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  55. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Ed Snack (MS)

    Master of Spin

    Mission Accomplished, Ed.

    Yeah right.

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  56. Pete George (23,346 comments) says:

    Someone comments at NZ Herald under the name “Conny Linguish”. I don’t agree with them on that comment, Lockwood Smith is trying to deal with some pretty dipstick behaviour in parliament.

    Winston’s nose is really out of joint because he wasn’t allowed to speak first on Tuesday. I thought his act and subsequent sending from the House might have just been a stunt, but he seems to be really hissy fitting over it.

    Audrey Young: Peters’ stoush with Speaker gets serious

    Trevor Mallard chimed in:

    … said that many people believed the Speaker had made an error in his call on Tuesday by calling Mr Key first.

    Maybe Lockwood did err there, but that was no excuse for what followed. Peters’ tantrum was due to him not being able to speak first about his ongoing stoush with Lockwood.

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  57. Griff (7,008 comments) says:

    stolen from http://pc.blogspot.co.nz/2012/10/religion-vs-science.html

    Dear religion
    This week I safely dropped a man from space while you shot a child in the head for wanting to go to school
    signed Science

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  58. Scott Chris (5,981 comments) says:

    Homogeneity of society, at least in respect to ethnicity, is an inevitability in the long run.

    The human race is destined to become coffee complexioned and brown eyed.

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  59. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Tom

    I’m still trying to understand why I should be upset about your story of Castro seeking arms from Nazis. If one is facing an existential threat, the source of one’s arms is secondary, surely. I can’t imagine Israel being too fussy about who supplies it arms – or whom it supplies arms too, including nuclear weapons technology eg South Africa’s apartheid regime. But then, they were true soulmates, were they not? And only one has changed its spots.

    And come to think of it, weren’t the arms Israel rushed in in 1948 ex-Nazi?

    But Castro was, and in reality remains, a pretty nasty piece of work, notwithstanding his singular foreign policy triumph of standing up to the US.

    I think it was a French diplomat who once remarked that US policy towards Cuba was seen in Europe as ‘slightly deranged’. I concur.

    I’m looking forward to your final solution for the US economy, Tom. That should make good reading. I may repost it to Paul Krugman’s blog, if the NYT gatekeepers will accept it, for some learned commentary.

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  60. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Scott, the way we are going, we won’t be around long enough to merge to that extent – unless it’s the few that survive the coming climate catastrophe.

    And I do think Pete let his Freud slip: he really did have ‘white’ in mind. It’s how they are wired in the Deep South (cue much huffing from an offended Pete!).

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  61. flipper (3,847 comments) says:

    The US has LOST its UK case to extradite a teenage hacker from the UK to US to face charges relating to the penetration of Pentagon and other (NASA) classified computer sites. (He said he was looking for UFO data and says he found it)
    The British Home Secretary said the decision to decline extradition was on “:medical grounds”. She also announced in her statement to the Commons that the UK will change its law to make US extradition HARDER.
    The US State Dept. (that wimpish woman, Nuland) is pissed.
    Obviously, a lot more to come as detail emerges.
    CNN has since reported:
    • that current British (UK) law does NOT require the US to produce evidence when seeking extradition. This is a major point of issue in NZ re Dottiecom v Hollywood moguls.
    • The Home Secretary says UK law will be amended to require the production of evidence.
    This is point of argument on Dottiecom.
    But it all makes the Dottiecom affair look somewhat small fry, does it not?
    A wonderful moot point for Davidson, Pike and Winkleman J, is it not? :)

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  62. Longknives (4,686 comments) says:

    Up until now I thought the Felix Baumgartner thing was pretty cool. But now I see he has been adopted as the ‘pin up boy’ for gloating,crowing Athiesm.. For Christ’s sake.

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  63. Lance (2,565 comments) says:

    Dear Griff
    Stop talking out your arse

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  64. Griff (7,008 comments) says:

    dear lance why do you disagree with my post the followers of Allah else wise known as god shot the poor kid.
    Are you a follower of Allah just a different sect.

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  65. Colville (2,191 comments) says:

    stolen from http://pc.blogspot.co.nz/2012/10/religion-vs-science.html

    Dear religion
    This week I safely dropped a man from space while you shot a child in the head for wanting to go to school
    signed Science

    Science will fly you to the moon, religion will fly you into a building.

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  66. Longknives (4,686 comments) says:

    I’m not even religious but I find the constant stream of smug and snide remarks (Facebook is bombarded with them) from Atheists just as tiresome as those twats that knock on your door every Sunday morning…

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  67. Longknives (4,686 comments) says:

    In fairness I think we can chalk up Hiroshima and Nagasaki to Science…

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  68. Lance (2,565 comments) says:

    @Griff
    You stated that religion (as in all religion and all people that follow a religion) “shot a child in the head”.

    This goes beyond trolling into ‘talking out your arse’.

    If you had written that the Taliban shot a child in the head then that would not have been talking out your arse.

    But I knew it was likely I would have to explain the difference between shit and clay to you… sigh.

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  69. Lance (2,565 comments) says:

    @Colville
    All science good, all religion bad.

    Mastermind comment there. You and Griff should write a book, after you read one first.

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  70. Pete George (23,346 comments) says:

    And I do think Pete let his Freud slip: he really did have ‘white’ in mind.

    Not at all, I just let through a loose interpretation of ‘homogenous’. I don’t think in terms of ‘white’. I could look on my children as part negro but I just see them as they are, Kiwis (although to an extent now ex).

    And this afternoon I’m about to meet a grandson for the first time. His father is from Scotland, he was born in Switzerland and he now lives in Brisbane. I would never have considered him to be ‘white’, as I’ve never thought of myself as ‘white’.

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  71. Pete George (23,346 comments) says:

    PS, I do have a prejudice about appearances though. I don’t like many of the (often unrecognisable) surgically blanded faces that seem to be proliferating. I far prefer natural looks (of many varieties).

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  72. Griff (7,008 comments) says:

    Global warming is a …………?

    The average combined global land and ocean surface temperature for September 2012 tied with 2005 as the warmest September on record,
    http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/2012/9

    Next year will probably be a El Niño if it is temperature records will fall.

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  73. graham (2,285 comments) says:

    Dear Science

    Congratulations on dropping a man from space. Well done. I’m sure that will be really useful in the future.

    Shame about that Alexander Bogdanov you killed (died while experimenting on blood transfusions). And Karl Scheele who you killed (took a taste of mercury and died from mercury poisoning). And Elizabeth Ascheim who also died in your name (tested x-rays on herself and died of an extremely widespread and violent cancer). And Louis Slotin (nuked himself).

    Oh and hey – how DID the Monster Study in Iowa turn out? You know, where Mary Tudor experimented with speech therapy, belittling half her subjects (orphan children) for every speech imperfection and telling them they were stutterers? Oh that’s right – many of them suffered negative psychological effects and some retained speech problems during the course of their life. And the experiment was kept hidden for around 60 years, wasn’t it?

    And how about that “Poison laboratory” of the Soviets? You know, where they experimented on human subjects to find a really good chemical cocktail to poison people with?

    Shall we talk about good old Dr. Josef Mengele? His pursuit of science was something else, wasn’t it?

    Yep, science has really done itself proud over the years. But if you’ve managed to find out everything you wanted to know, could you please stop now? We don’t think we can survive much more of it.

    Sincerely, Mankind.

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  74. kowtow (7,955 comments) says:

    Religion will fly you into a building? What,on a magic carpet?

    Actually it was political rivalry born out of the cold war that flew men to the moon,on the back of WW2 rocket innovations.

    So war will fly you to the moon and when one says “religion’ will fly you into a building let’s drop the bollocks and be specific, Islam will fly you into buildings.

    And jet engines also got their “boost” through WW2.

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  75. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Fair enough Pete. It was a bit loose, I agree. Self perception is interesting. I think of myself as New Zealand European, and white, for sure.

    Now then, an analysis of the economic plans of each of the two main presidential candidates that made me say, snap!

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-17/romney-lost-tonight-so-did-america-.html

    Especially this bit:

    Romney and Obama fought with each other a lot tonight, but the subtext of their messages was sadly similar: If elected, they will sit around and hope the economy gets better. That’s not a message that gives me much hope for the next four years, no matter who wins.

    The emphasis is mine, and that passage reflects the economic strategy of our own government. Overwhelmed by the magnitude of events they inherited, English and Key cling to outdated ideology and ‘muddle through’, often defending the indefensible (no loss of manufacturing jobs? Sheesh! Sure, if you cherry pick your data period and stats) or fiscally insignificant dog whistling victimising those of us who are in the most need.

    One thing people need to realise is that markets fail: hence the term ‘market failure’. Our current exchange rate is an example of market failure. To say that the government can or should do nothing is simply conceding sovereignty to the type of zero-sum gamblers epitomised by our current PM.

    I don’t know what the best alternative strategy would be, for sure, but one does exist. TINA needs to be pensioned off.

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  76. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    kowtow

    Islam didn’t fly into buildings. Political dissidents did that, and their reasons were rooted in US foreign policy, not religion. Islam was merely their common bond.

    Just like US soldiers pray together before battle. But Christianity doesn’t fire the bombs or rifles that kill indiscriminately.

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  77. graham (2,285 comments) says:

    (PS: Hey Science, shall we discuss Dr. Shiro Ishii, who tested vivisection techniques without any anesthesia on human prisoners, all in the name of “Science”? Or that fun experiment where the US decided to test penicillin’s effectiveness as a cure for syphillis by sending out infected prostitutes to have a good time with unknowing prison inmates, insane asylum patients and soldiers; by pouring syphilis bacteria onto mens’ penises and on their forearms and faces; and by inoculating men through spinal punctures? And the scientific advances made during the Manhattan Project – I’m sure the unsuspecting, non-consenting patients who were injected with plutonium wouldn’t have minded – it’s for SCIENCE, after all!!!)

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  78. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Longknives (1,559) Says:
    October 18th, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    In fairness I think we can chalk up Hiroshima and Nagasaki to Science…

    And how many world wars since? :)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll

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  79. Griff (7,008 comments) says:

    Luc
    Interesting that you define your self as a New Zealand European.
    Many of us do not have links to Europe or strongly identify as New Zealanders and see that when exposed to Europe our culture and lifestyle is markedly different.
    Yet the census refuses to allow us to have our own ethnicity
    I am not a Pakeha or a New Zealand European I am a New Zealander and proud of that ethnicity

    Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group
    An ethnic group is a group of people whose members are identified through a common trait. This can, but does not have to, include an idea of common heritage, a common culture, a shared language or dialect. The group’s ethos or ideology may also stress common ancestry and religion, as opposed to an ethnic minority group which refers to race. The process that results in the emergence of an ethnicity is called ethnogenesis.

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  80. kowtow (7,955 comments) says:

    US foreign policy?

    It’s always some one else’s fault. Never the Islamic perpetrator .

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  81. Scott Chris (5,981 comments) says:

    Thankfully our ethical standards have changed somewhat in the last half-century or so which means science is generally practiced within the confines of modern secular humanist philosophy.

    Thank God for the enlightenment. ;)

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  82. dime (9,676 comments) says:

    why the fuck do i have to hear the name “dot com” 50 times a day?

    Dime used to be a fan (fireworks display). now im just cranky.

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  83. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Islam didn’t fly into buildings. Political dissidents did that, and, their reasons were rooted in US foreign policy, not religion.

    Lucy, shame on you for writing these despicable words. Also, labelling the jihadist murderers as “political dissidents” is offensive.

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  84. graham (2,285 comments) says:

    Yes, we’re a lot better in the last half-century Scott Chris.

    Oh, except for those 1500 six-month old black and hispanic babies in Los Angeles that were given an “experimental” measles vaccine that had never been licensed for use in the United States, and where the parents were never informed that the vaccine being injected to their children was experimental. In 1990.

    OK, so the last twenty years then. :)

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  85. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Luc Hansen (4,124) Says:
    October 18th, 2012 at 12:54 pm

    kowtow

    Islam didn’t fly into buildings. Political dissidents did that, and their reasons were rooted in US foreign policy, not religion. Islam was merely their common bond.

    That’s a weak argument in my view. Religion and politics do not exist in separate universes. They are closely intertwined.

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  86. Lance (2,565 comments) says:

    Here is one for the commies that frequent Kiwiblog

    http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/182h4jpdfjpaijpg/original.jpg

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  87. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    @griff

    Good points. I guess it comes down to a combination of parental influence and environment, especially schooling. My two grown up boys would be aligned with you.

    @weihana

    Sure, you’re entitled to your opinion, but not to your facts. A religion did not perpetrate that, or any, crime. Nowhere in the Koran does it urge its followers to fly planes into buildings. Nowhere in the Bible does it urge dropping atomic bombs on cities…although the Old Testament does advocate genocide.

    @Manolo

    One dimensionality suits you. Personally, I think in this case the combination of your and mine can coexist, with reservations of the use of ‘jihadist’, but I prefer the plain and factually accurate term, ‘criminals’. Possibly ‘criminally insane’, too, but that would apply to most US generals, as well.

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  88. Scott Chris (5,981 comments) says:

    Graham, yes that’s the exception that proves the rule, and by the standards of previous contraventions of human rights a relatively benign one. Quite likely that the political fallout from that incident led to the drafting of legislation to prevent any re-occurrence.

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  89. publicwatchdog (2,294 comments) says:

    http://cameronbrewer.co.nz/2012/10/john-banks-has-been-great-for-auckland/

    Birds of a feather flock together?

    NOT a good look Cameron Brewer- defending the indefensible ‘dodgy’ John Banks?

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/JOHN-BANKS-RAT-WITH-GOLD-TOOTH-MORPH-BANNER-ONLY-23-September-2012.jpg

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/HOWCOME.jpg

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

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  90. wreck1080 (3,815 comments) says:

    I wonder why there is not some more political interest in the teachers novopay system failures. This system is a dog. The fact they are still having serious issues shows that it is not just a minor issue.

    Another story popped up today….

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/7833277/Pay-system-leaves-teacher-with-just-4

    This system cost 24 million to build— rather astounding.

    Someones heads need to roll on this one. It is certainly not a funding issue either.

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  91. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Blame it all on colonialism: http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8549983/pair-jailed-for-petrol-station-shooting

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  92. graham (2,285 comments) says:

    Scott, I would suggest that Science is still committing its fair share of unethical behaviours today. There are plenty of examples if you take the time to look.

    Or … maybe it’s just individuals performing unethical/illegal experiments. In the name of Science.

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  93. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Luc,

    Sure, you’re entitled to your opinion, but not to your facts. A religion did not perpetrate that, or any, crime. Nowhere in the Koran does it urge its followers to fly planes into buildings. Nowhere in the Bible does it urge dropping atomic bombs on cities…although the Old Testament does advocate genocide.

    Indeed it would be hard for the Koran to say anything about planes given they are relatively recent inventions.

    But your approach seems to sideline religion as if it were a trivial sidenote, rather than a powerful force that shapes ones attitudes and beliefs and gives them a propensity towards certain types of behaviour.

    Yet in reality religion was a principle driving force for Bin Laden against the United States:

    “For this and other acts of aggression and injustice, we have declared jihad against the US, because in our religion it is our duty to make jihad so that God’s word is the one exalted to the heights and so that we drive the Americans away from all Muslim countries”

    Bin Laden may have cited political motives, and those motives may have been genuine, but they clearly cannot be separated from his religious belief. There is no separation of religion and politics when it comes to Islam. The political disagreements are inextricably linked with religion.

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  94. Grendel (972 comments) says:

    wreck, i was one of the team who was hired to do payroll when the teachers contract last changed hands, at Datacom back in 1996.

    the first few months are usually a monumental cockup, as you are not only getting the hang of a new system, and trying to run normal pay cycles, your predecessors have left a fuckton of work for you to catch up on as they slide out the door.

    also, payroll companies seem to treat the teachers payroll like they do a normal payroll system, and grossly underestimate the work involved. teachers payroll has to be one of the hardest to do in the country (though sadly, its not really that difficult, so anyone whos any good leaves), due to the fractured nature of schools, all running different systems for reporting, the dogs breakfast that the relief teacher system is, and due to the collective contracts the 10+ diffferent ways people get paid (and have salary calculated, and benefits etc), and all the grandparents clauses in place.

    at least this lot wont have the physical salary cards we had, and teachers still being paid in cash, becuase they had been teaching 50 years and you can never take away a ‘right’ once they have it.

    i feel sorry for the staff who will be working stupid long hours trying to make it work, and for the school staff whos pay has been screwed up. it will get fixed, and it will all be forgotten, until the contract comes up again and the next lot think they can do it better, and it all happens again.

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  95. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    “Blame it all on colonialism’

    wonder if they are related to Donna/Donna’s husband.. probably..

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  96. publicwatchdog (2,294 comments) says:

    Here you go Kiwibloggers!

    The Report of the Commerce Select Committee and new evidence provided by the Finance Markets Authority and the Serious Fraud Office – in which some of you may be interested?

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com/corruption/commerce-select-committee-report-on-banks/

    Why ‘ONE LAW FOR ALL’ has not been applied to John Banks and Don Brash………

    yep – smells like a corrupt form of political protection to me – in my considered opinion.

    What do others think?

    (After actually READING the information provided? :)

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

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  97. KH (694 comments) says:

    Kohanga Reo and the Waitangi Tribunal statements.
    The Tribunal should be renamed.
    How about the Maori Grievance Public Relations Agency.

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  98. graham (2,285 comments) says:

    Oh dear … 291,310 people in NZ had NOT A SODDING THING TO DO last night. Their choices were watching their fingernails grow, or tuning into the Ridges finale.

    Why the hell did they pick option number two?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv/7832957/The-Ridges-finish-on-a-ratings-high

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  99. artemisia (226 comments) says:

    Kohanga Reo on National Radio this morning — bit of a mishmash and hard to follow their arguments, but sounded like a big part of the issue is parents voting with their feet and rolls therefore dropping. No real discussion about why, except it is apparently the Min of Ed’s fault for trampling on their kaupapa. I wonder if their national trust (it has oversight of all kohanga reo) do exit interviews.

    On specific mentioned – at length – as a problem with the Min of Ed imposing on the kohanga reo was that they require littlies to be changed on a changing table, not on the floor. Sounds like they need to get out more …

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  100. Nookin (3,185 comments) says:

    Graham. It’s a brain-numbing therapy. The rationale is that after half an hour or so the grey matter becomes so deadened that you can read KB without becoming stultified by the vaccuous mindless crap that we get about Key and Banks from a nameless bigot.

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  101. Jack5 (4,906 comments) says:

    The NZ Herald reports Chand, who killed Christie Marceau, has been sentenced to three years for kidnapping her. Three years!

    Blogger Karl du Fresne is interesting today on David McNaughton, the judge who let Chand out on bail despite appeals by the police and Christie.

    http://karldufresne.blogspot.co.nz/

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  102. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    ..er..I only watched the ridges to make sure..er…it was the actual final, nothing to do with perving at the young skank whats her name..

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  103. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Weihana

    bin Laden launched his jihad in response to…(fill in your choice of US actions, but he was pretty pissed when US military bases sprung up in Saudi Arabia – holy land in Islam – after the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq, after his offer to the Sauds to eject Saddam was rejected, and then seriously pissed when after the end of that war, the bases remained).

    That is, whichever way you look at it, the foreign policy activities of the US were a necessary precursor to bin Laden going on the warpath.

    The fact that this cogent fact is anathema to you speaks volumes for your own mindset.

    In addition, bin Laden was representative of neither Islam nor the governments of Islamic nations. He was a criminal renegade who has caused the greatest harm to his own people, not the US or the west, generally. Although we have suffered greatly with the steady erosion of our civil liberties since 9/11, but not in comparison to the Muslims of Iraq and Afghanistan and now, the new victims on the block, Iran.

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  104. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Monolo can always be trusted to find links that show the abolute absurdity of the Orwellian nightmare we are forced to live daily.

    “Blame it all on colonialism’

    Defence lawyer’s statement … “youthful offending”

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  105. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    OMFG I just saw that Key forgot how he voted on the alcohol bill. He is seeriously distracted. I hope he’s not doing a Brash.

    How about that snap election national?

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  106. graham (2,285 comments) says:

    liarbors a joke at 3:45 pm:

    ..er..I only watched the ridges to make sure..er…it was the actual final, nothing to do with perving at the young skank whats her name..

    Ew. Really? Thought you had taste.

    I personally find them a bit screwed up – I mean, what mother puts her duaghter on the catwalk at age 17 modelling lingerie?

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  107. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Luc,

    The fact that this cogent fact is anathema to you speaks volumes for your own mindset.

    I haven’t contradicted you on the fact that US foreign policy was cited by Osama as motivating his actions. I’ve simply commented that you seem to sideline the role of religion in motivating his actions as if it played no role or was merely a trivial footnote.

    Saying he is not a “representative” of Islam seems rather meaningless. So far as I know Allah doesn’t have a twitter account to let us know who represents him here on Earth. So anyone can claim to represent Islam and anyone else can claim such people to be wrong.

    But the fact remains that Osama was quite clear in explaining that his jihad against the United States was seen as a religious duty.

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  108. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    the mothers a hag Graham but the daughters something else..until she opens her gob..for which I have the perfect gob stopper.

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  109. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Thank you, Kevin. I knew you would appreciate my tireless efforts.

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  110. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    …but not in comparison to the Muslims of Iraq and Afghanistan and now, the new victims on the block, Iran.

    Just to add, these people suffer under their own backward ideals and primitive beliefs. Iran is no victim. It is a fanatical fundamentalist regime. Or do you suppose that the execution of homosexuals reflects the wisdom of reasonable people?

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  111. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    The Iranian people are victims..Many still follow their old pre islamic religion in private..many of the young people are heroin addicts. The wealthy send their young abroad.

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  112. MT_Tinman (3,055 comments) says:

    graham (1,389) Says:
    October 18th, 2012 at 4:25 pm
    liarbors a joke at 3:45 pm:

    I mean, what mother puts her duaghter on the catwalk at age 17 modelling lingerie?

    Fucking near any mother who could – most models start a damned sight younger than 17.

    I’ve never seen slag-the-younger, hardly ever seen slag-the-mother but don’t blame them, blame the halfwit who put them on the television.

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  113. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Elaycee…
    Great comment re Sanitarium..I agree..When you go to another country , you should fit in with the new country’s laws.
    Re Kohanga..Some pommie prat has been telling them what to do for some time..I haven’t seen him but he can’t look worse than Longstocking..You would think on her salary , she could get a haircut and some lippy. How are all these poms getting into the education ministry? How do they pass the immigration requirements for there not being a NZer who could do the job? Or is that just another joke?
    Lots of supportive comments on the Herald comment section for Winston..Smith is a wally and why do such well paid people need a translation service? Winston is right..The people who watch parliamentary TV are sick to death of Smith’s interpretations.

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  114. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Weihana

    These criminals misappropriate religion for their purposes, just as Bush and Blair did to justify their murderous rampages.

    Nothing the Iranian people believe in or do within their own country justifies the mayhem the west, and Israel, is girding its loins for. Your hatred of all things Islamic, like that of Joana, who just just left her Hail Marys to join the fray, overrides all other considerations, including those of universal human rights.

    I hope you enjoy the war from the safety of your lounge.

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  115. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Meanwhile, I see Mr Key had another Romney moment today.

    Did he really forget how he voted on the alcohol bill or did he just bend with the wind at the mention of 37% (maybe he got confused with 47%).

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  116. wat dabney (3,724 comments) says:

    The average combined global land and ocean surface temperature for September 2012 tied with 2005 as the warmest September on record

    Translation: Temperatures still flat, contrary to all the alarmism.

    Meanwhile…

    “New paper confirms the climate was warmer 1000 years ago”

    This new analysis shows that the warming we have seen in the late-20th century is not unprecedented… Seen in the reconstruction is a well-defined peak of temperature between 950–1050 AD. They also find that the first millennium is warmer than the second.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/10/17/new-paper-confirms-the-climate-was-warmer-1000-years-ago/

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  117. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    Sad day for NZ justice system when no ones held accountable for Kahui twins death. Case closed. End of story. BOTH scumbag mother and father should be strung up for failing to protect THEIR children.

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  118. tom hunter (4,568 comments) says:

    Bin Laden may have cited political motives, and those motives may have been genuine, but they clearly cannot be separated from his religious belief. There is no separation of religion and politics when it comes to Islam. The political disagreements are inextricably linked with religion.

    Unfortunately the Western Far-Left (and all too many members of the so-called Centre-Left) simply cannot accept that argument:

    I suspect if you carefully examined most Muslim terrorists you would find a complex web of motivations. But this seldom happens. Soon as a Muslim acts violently, it is popularly credited to religious motivation, which is not the case when a Christian/Buddhist/Hindu/Atheist does the same. How often does the media go into a spin about ‘Buddhist violence’ when the Burmese junta murders its citizens?

    That’s Sam Buchanan over on The Taliban thread. For many on the Left, any religious rationalisation for action can be dismissed along with the rest of the beliefs. It’s all silly stuff, and hence there must be other reasons:

    … but he was pretty pissed when US military bases sprung up in Saudi Arabia – holy land in Islam – after the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq, after his offer to the Sauds to eject Saddam was rejected, and then seriously pissed when after the end of that war, the bases remained).

    This is missing the forest for the trees. The point is that Bin Laden was not “pissed off” in the way that some German left-wing group would be in bitching about American Imperialism as demonstrated by American military bases in Germany fifty years after WWII. Bin Laden was pissed off about American military bases in Saudi Arabia because it went against his religious beliefs that “infidels” should not be staining the holy land of Mecca, in the same way that he was pissed off about the loss of Andulasia 500 years ago.

    But Westerners like Luc and Sam happily accept the former and reject the latter because the latter is irrational and “silly” – whereas the first aligns with their objectives and is hence “rational”.

    The problem comes when Islamic believers start dragging in the modern era as well:

    .. also their withholding of arms from the Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina leaving them prey to the Christian Serbians who massacred and raped in a manner not seen in contemporary history.

    Hang on! Amidst all the classic Imperialist sins of intervention that Bin Laden unloaded on, how did that decidedly non-interventionist reason get in there?

    As I recall there was quite a bit of opposition from the Western-Left – protest marches, Wag The Dog and the like – to NATO intervention in Bosnia, and plaudits from many on the Left for the efforts to stop weapons flowing into the area. Same with East Timor, which Bin Laden thought had been “stolen” from Indonesia but whose freedom from Indonesian (and hence American) influence was a long-standing demand of the Left. I think Pilger may be on an Islamist death list because of his writings on the subject.

    I don’t see any members of the Western Left accepting that these “foreign policies” that they supported should be held responsible for us being targeted by Islamic terrorists. Yet by the causal standards applied to “American bases in Saudi” we would have to accept that they are.

    That’s why there is no point cherry-picking these reasons to find the ones that align with the objectives of some Western group. It’s actually much more rational to look at the Islamic theological basis behind each claim and accept that it’s the overall underlying reason.

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  119. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Thanks for the laugh Luc.

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  120. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Lucy, try your luck as stand-up comedian. You have a future, comrade.

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  121. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    Recall the Libyan point which was one of Obama’s highlights on last night’s debate? Well…

    AMB Chris Stevens was NOT surprised by his killers in Benghazi, Libya as has been portrayed thus far. According to sources in the State Department Chris Stevens was in Benghazi, Libya at the specific instruction of the Obama White House to recover weapons that the U.S. supplied to Libya rebels in the over throw of Gaddafi. These sources who work in the State Department and the Obama White House say that Barack Obama was directly involved in negotiations with Libyan Rebels in an effort to recover weapons that the U.S. supplied them. Sources say that the arrangements were made between Barack Obama direct talks and that the White House directly arranged for AMB Stevens to travel to Benghazi, Libya on September 11, 2012 and it was by direction of Barack Obama that Stevens was to meet with the very individuals who tortured, raped and murdered him.

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  122. Scott Chris (5,981 comments) says:

    But the fact remains that Osama was quite clear in explaining that his jihad against the United States was seen as a religious duty.

    I suspect many members of the IRA were similarly filled with religious zeal. I think you’ll find though that the thing that really pissed them off was the English imperialists occupying their country.

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  123. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Wow! If proven true that would be political dynamite to be used against the Messiah.

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  124. nasska (10,917 comments) says:

    Yay….tell it like it is!

    Ref: http://imgur.com/gallery/oWCx7

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  125. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    Richest man in all history, Rothschild’s are No #2.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/meet-mansa-musa-i-of-mali–the-richest-human-being-in-all-history-8213453.html

    This is why Rothschild interests own the media, so they can fool the feeble-minded who don’t bother to look at history but simply take it as read on face value, like children take things. The bonus is, if you don’t take it as read on face value, it hurts your tummy, so you quickly fall into line, like little sheep. To the slaughter.

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  126. kowtow (7,955 comments) says:

    English imperialists did not occupy Ireland.Ireland was constitutionally part of the UK and sent democratically elected MPs to London.By 1914 Ireland was to have it’s own Home Rule parliament.
    That’s what the IRA didn’t like,and sought to overthrow a democratic arrangement by violence.

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  127. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    Wow! If proven true that would be political dynamite to be used against the Messiah.

    The media won’t be doing that in a hurry Manolo. Just the same as they won’t be criticising Israel in a hurry. They’ll plant the seed, see how it grows, watch it, watch it. It won’t go anywhere, mainstream. Not because there isn’t evidence but because they’ll refuse to air it.

    And this is how “they” elect their preferred candidate. It makes it seem as if the decision came from the “grassroots.” When I say “they” of course I’m not talking about the media, I’m talking about the people who’ve already decided who’s going to be elected.

    Always with the long game in mind. After all, if they publicise that, pretty soon the trail leads to Hillary doesn’t it, and they haven’t finished with her, yet.

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  128. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Tom Hunter:

    It’s actually much more rational to look at the Islamic theological basis behind each claim and accept that it’s the overall underlying reason.

    Replace ‘rational’ with ‘simplistic and prejudiced’ and that sentence would be coherent.

    And unlike the silly comments above directed at me, I do not discount the role of Islam in, say, 9/11. I mentioned it as a powerful bonding mechanism, as are all religions, but our actions breed consequences and our meddling in the Middle East for selfish pecuniary advantage laid the groundwork over decades to foster the bin Ladens of this world.

    As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

    Say Tom, where’s your economic recipe for the US that will trump Krugman’s?

    I’m waiting…

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  129. Viking2 (11,283 comments) says:

    Elaycee (2,853) Says:
    October 18th, 2012 at 8:52 am

    @Lance: Agree…. our household also looks forward to the return of the real deal, rather than Vegemite. :D

    @LAJ: The tax status has been in place for decades – my point was more in relation to the moron who thought it OK to bring in a product with the intention of passing it off against a brand that holds a registered trademark.

    But I have sympathy for any CHC manufacturer who is still feeling the effects of the quakes. Whilst all manufacturers have disaster recovery plans, we all hope that they are never put to the test in real life. In the case of Sanitarium, I heard the delay was due to damage to a unique item used in the manufacturing process… apparently it isn’t an item that can be purchased ‘off the shelf’.

    But but, Sani’s could make it in China not so long ago. So many comp[laints they returned the production to NZ.

    I guess it coul;d have been made in China again. So the Sani’s are actually using this to “reach us all a lesson” aren’t they?

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  130. hj (6,748 comments) says:

    Thursday, 18 October, 2012 – 11:12
    A new member’s bill launched today would help to bring new citizens into the partnership embodied in Te Tiriti o Waitangi, the Green Party said today.

    “My Citizenship (Acknowledgement of Te Tiriti o Waitangi) Amendment Bill would have district councils and others who run citizenship ceremonies include mention of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and inform new citizens of the local iwi and hapu in their area,” said Green Party spokesperson for Te Tiriti o Waitangi Catherine Delahunty.

    “My research into current practices of district councils revealed 89% do not have any mention of Te Tiriti at all in their current ceremony.

    “In many councils, the closest to a mention of Tangata Whenua is the singing of the national anthem in Te Reo Maori or the gifting of a native plant.

    “While the 11% of councils who currently make specific reference to Te Tiriti o Waitangi should be applauded, new citizens in other regions are missing out.

    “This simple change to the Citizenship Act would help to enhance Te Tiriti as a living partnership for all who live in this country.

    “I look forward to my bill being drawn from the ballot and urge the other political parties to support it becoming law.
    http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/bill-will-bring-immigrants-te-tiriti-o-waitangi-partnership/5/138105

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  131. nasska (10,917 comments) says:

    An Israeli tank is chasing a Muslim.
    Suddenly the Arab stops, finding himself at a dead end, and starts blasting at the tank with his AK.
    He fires and fires with all his heart as the tank is getting nearer and nearer, and then, one moment the Muslim suddenly stops shooting.
    The tank also stops and the Jew pops his head out.
    “Why did you stop shooting?”
    “I ran out of bullets,” answered the Muslim.
    “I can sell you some.”

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  132. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    Here’s a couple of interesting data points:

    First, who in the most wealthy lives in which country?

    http://www.businessinsider.com/credit-suisse-wealth-report-ultra-rich-2012-10

    Second, which country has the highest median wealth?

    http://www.businessinsider.com/australian-nations-wealth-2012-10

    I’m moving. Right now. We haven’t got a chance, not while our current conservative govt led by a multi-millionaire who still proves, not to have a clue.

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  133. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    I started to feed a magpie outside my kitchen window last week. Now it perches on my heat pump tapping on the window if I don’t give it enough handouts. Anybody know how I can get rid of it?

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  134. nasska (10,917 comments) says:

    Try awarding it demerits JB…..it worked here! :)

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  135. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    I might miss it though if it went away forever nasska! :)

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  136. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    Give it lots of free food and hug it every now and again Johnboy. Build a little house for it in the backyard. That’s how Liarbore gets people off the dole so it should work. Let us know what happens in a few weeks.

    P.S. Don’t forget to pay it minimum wage, in worms, lest it take you to court.

    P.P.S. Perhaps to be safe, you shouldn’t feed it yourself, you should employ a qualified magpie specialist feed preparer, lest RSPCA takes you to court.

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  137. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    It’s a pretty little Magpie with a tawny patch on it’s little back and a cheeky look in it’s greedy little eye’s! :)

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  138. Don the Kiwi (1,650 comments) says:

    Its name isn’t Rangi is it Johnboy? :-)

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  139. nasska (10,917 comments) says:

    No such problem with nuisance magpies on this forum JB. :)

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  140. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    Worms? I only feed it best fillet steak, cut into beak size pieces Reid! :)

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  141. Don the Kiwi (1,650 comments) says:

    JB.
    Take your magic wand and turn it into a sheep – then you won’t want it to go away. :-)

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  142. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    What is Te Reo Magpie for “Rangi” Don?

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  143. Yvette (2,745 comments) says:

    Don’t let its appeal fool you, Johnboy – sort it before it becomes inter-generational

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  144. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    It’s too bloody fast for my magic wand Don! :)

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  145. Griff (7,008 comments) says:

    Wat wuwt
    From the paper you linked to “equalling or slightly exceeding the mid-20th century warming”
    Yet you say late-20th century is not unprecedented…
    You do Know that most recorded warming is since 1950 don’t you? and your paper does not propose a temperature higher than 1950 And it only is for the The extra-tropical Northern Hemisphere temperature not the global temperament as you should know no one doubts the area was warm in the medieval warm period its there is no proof for a global temperature peak then I will note that MBH98 was a pioneering paper in terms of the reconstructions – much work has followed on in both reconstruction techniques, additional and improved proxies, All of the work supports the late 20th century being as warm or warmer than anything in the last 1200 years, and warming faster than anything we have data for.
    There is a recent paper by Gergis et. al., in a post on Real Climate site, that covers proxies for Australia and Oceania and results in a hockey stick
    Best read some more rather than only look at the denial sites

    As to record warm its neutral southern oscillation any one that follows climate knows warmer years are El Nino
    We are coming out of the solar minimum the climate lags one or two years behind yet we are showing record warmth in what should be a cool period. As you have now admitted that temperatures are higher than 1998 you can not say it has not warmed since then :lol:

    Oh and on your Antarctic ice volume seven papers and the grace satellite say shrinking one paper says expanding. Time will tell yet at the moment seven papers. Plus the fact the expansion of the oceans must be from both thermal and glacial melt supports the seven not your one.

    Hows a Watts paper going has he got it published yet?You know McIntyre distanced himself from being named on it as it has very basic flaws.

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  146. Don the Kiwi (1,650 comments) says:

    Shit JB, don’t start with Te Reo – next thing it’ll have all its rellies there too. :-)

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  147. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    Ce qui est français, car je vous adore Magpie Yvette ?

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  148. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    Too late Don! :)

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  149. tom hunter (4,568 comments) says:

    Replace ‘rational’ with ‘simplistic and prejudiced’ …

    There’s nothing more simplistic and prejudiced than cherry picking reasons that align with your own and discarding the rest – speaking of which ….

    … but our actions breed consequences ….

    And I just finished explaining to you that if you wish to apply that standard you’re going to have to accept that our “actions” include ones the Western Left approved of. That’s not to say that I think it’s the fault of the Left, but to make the point that you’re wasting your time – and being mendacious – with your approach to accepting some of their “reasons” and not others.

    and our meddling in the Middle East for selfish pecuniary advantage

    The West has sent tens of trillions of dollars into the ME for their oil since the late 1960′s alone. They certainly did not do that out of altruism but it’s a long way from being a selfish pecuniary advantage either. I use the late 60′s as a starting point because that’s when the nationalisations of Western oil company assets were largely done, which means the bulk of the money was not going to said oil companies. If the local thug leaders (many of whom had driven these nationalisations to cheers from their own people) pissed it away and the local populace saw little of it, I don’t see that as the responsibility of the West.

    Say Tom, where’s your economic recipe for the US that will trump Krugman’s?

    I’m waiting…

    Well you can wait a bit longer. It should not be a problem at your age.

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  150. Yvette (2,745 comments) says:

    Trap it, Johnboy, then take it for a long drive – works in Calgary

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  151. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    As I told nasska earlier, I don’t have a car Yvette! :)

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  152. Yvette (2,745 comments) says:

    Vous n’avez pas d’amis? Peut-être que vous avez besoin de Rangi, après tout

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  153. Griff (7,008 comments) says:

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/only-nz-has-stimulus-austerity-balance/story-e6frf7k6-1226498768684
    NeW Zealand is “the only country” implementing a balanced mix of stimulus and austerity policies, one of US President Barack Obama’s former top economic advisers says.
    “For most countries it’s better to combine deficit reduction that you put in place now but that takes effect over time, with if anything, additional support, and that means stimulus, for the economy, effective immediately,” said Peter Orszag in a BBC World Service radio debate during last week’s International Monetary Fund meeting in Tokyo.

    “What’s interesting about the fiscal monitor the IMF published … as part of these meetings, is if you look across all the developed countries, there is only one country… which has actually done that, which is New Zealand.”

    The country had “coupled additional stimulus with medium-term fiscal consolidation. That’s the right policy combination”.

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  154. Yvette (2,745 comments) says:

    Penny – you ask what do we think of your 2.46 comment

    So far you have made extensive demands of the former Securities Commission, the Finance Markets Authority (FMA), the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) and the New Zealand Police, who have all examined you comments regarding John Banks or Don Brash, as former fellow Directors of Huljich Wealth Management (NZ) Ltd, for signing Huljich Kiwisaver registered prospectuses dated 22 August 2008 and 18 September 2009, and these people have all cleared John Banks of any wrong doing.

    Now, although the outcome was commented on kiwiblog here last week, you mention today that Parliament’s Commerce Select Committee has ruled on your Petition 2011/5 and “…has no matters to bring to the attention of the House”

    So your involvement there of the “highest court in the land” has further cleared John Banks to about the greatest extent now that anyone could desire.

    You should probably end your drive now to justify John Banks, as it seems you have taken it as far as anyone can really, to prove his innocence in the Huljich matter.

    Otherwise people may misconstrue it that you have an obsessive mental health issue regarding John Banks’ integrity.

    I mean, from the Dotcom issue, the rest of us can see he is just a dishonest fucking liar,
    so you shouldn’t be corrupting the truth by exonerating him the way you have

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  155. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    Aucun aucun Yvette avec les amis appelé Rangi qui aurait besoin d’ennemis ? :)

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  156. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    Otherwise people may misconstrue it that you have an obsessive mental health issue regarding John Banks’ integrity. I mean, from the Dotcom issue, the rest of us can see he is just a dishonest fucking liar, so you shouldn’t be corrupting the truth by exonerating him the way you have

    It’s quite obvious to many of us Yvette that Penny fancies John tremendously. After all, you only hurt the ones you love, and I personally have been waiting for ages for the gossip section in the newspapers to announce John and Penny are a hot “item.” I’m not too sure however that outing Penny in her secret desire is the best idea. Perhaps we should all just stand aside and let the mystery of love take its natural course.

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  157. Yvette (2,745 comments) says:

    Rangi le Magpie – chapardeur ou moulin à paroles

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  158. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    Well Johnboy fancied her till she failed to deliver his barbed wire! :)

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  159. Tauhei Notts (1,651 comments) says:

    Nasska at 8.00
    Brilliant!

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  160. Yvette (2,745 comments) says:

    Reid
    It just upsets me to see such talent get stuck in one place
    Penny could be attacking big corporate corruption, like British American Tobacco advertising in prime time on television – pretending to be about branding, but ultimately in the interests of increasing or at least holding the tobacco market.

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  161. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    Those Catholic church ad’s need someone to sort them out. Bloody insidious they are! :)

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  162. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Right-wing????

    John Key’s right-wing government has gained support from an unlikely quarter, with one of US President Barack Obama’s former top economic advisers, Peter Orszag, saying New Zealand is “the only country” implementing a balanced mix of stimulus and austerity policies.

    http://money.msn.co.nz/businessnews/national/8550257/top-obama-economic-adviser-praises-nz

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  163. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Alcohol-nazis across the Tasman: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/industry-revolts-as-federal-health-agency-proposes-ban-on-discount-booze/story-e6frg6n6-1226494990848

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  164. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Tom

    There’s nothing more simplistic and prejudiced than cherry picking reasons that align with your own and discarding the rest – speaking of which ….

    The kindest riposte I can think of for the above is…pot, black..

    And I just finished explaining to you that if you wish to apply that standard you’re going to have to accept that our “actions” include ones the Western Left approved of.

    I don’t self-identify with the “Western Left”. You do that for me. I think it’s called projection.

    The West has sent tens of trillions of dollars into the ME for their oil since the late 1960′s alone…blah blah blah

    And you blithely ignore the fact that the imperial powers, with the US as a leading light, particularly since 1967, either installed, cosseted or armed, or all three, ruthless dictators across the region for the purposes of securing oil supply security. You are using the Niall Ferguson argument of, “Sure, we killed you, we robbed you blind, in general, we really fucked you over, but hey, look at what you got in return. Ungrateful heathens!”

    Hillary Clinton: “Mubarak (30 year murderous reign) is a family friend.”

    All the dictators in the Middle East in the major oil producing nations were installed or empowered with the assistance of the US, in particular, with Britain and France in tow.

    And, um, you also conveniently gloss over Iran, 1953, not permitted to nationalize their own resources. Boy, did the US get blowback over that! Mind you, revenge is a dish best served cold and the US is gearing up to rectify that setback. What do think will satisfy that particular bloodlust – 3 million dead?

    Any objective economic analysis will find the Middle East has suffered tremendously at the hands of the West.

    Say Tom, where’s your economic recipe for the US that will trump Krugman’s?

    I’m waiting…

    Well you can wait a bit longer. It should not be a problem at your age.

    Clueless wuss.

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  165. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Griff (3,190) Says:
    October 18th, 2012 at 9:55 pm
    http://www.heraldsun.com.au

    I think Peter Orzag will soon be eating his words, but, yes, in comparison to the scorched Earth of Europe, NZ would appear balanced.

    The tax cuts for the rich will become increasingly unsustainable, inequality will greatly increase, and Key/English will fiddle with benefits, women’s uteruses, Maori etc etc while the country burns sinks further down the OECD ladder.

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  166. Viking2 (11,283 comments) says:

    Hooper told last night’s gathering that entrepreneurs had a big chance to lift economic prosperity, yet did not have a seat at the table with policymakers. “It is entrepreneurs, not governments, that create jobs. I believe it is the Government’s record on job creation which will prove to be the critical issue of the 2014 election.”

    Hooper said Ernst & Young was talking with government ministers in the hope of giving entrepreneurs more policy influence.

    Isn’t that so correct.!

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  167. Viking2 (11,283 comments) says:

    The offshore Taranaki Maari oilfield could ultimately produce more than 100 million barrels of oil, according to field partner Horizon Oil, after announcing the latest remaining-reserves estimates for the field.

    No real shortage of oil at the right price.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/7835965/Maari-oilfield-reserves-tipped-to-produce-100-million-barrels

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  168. graham (2,285 comments) says:

    Reid, Yvette: The happy couple sharing a laugh -

    http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/YO56TaLlNBs/John+Banks+Len+Brown+Quized+Sale+Street+Brewery/-xuGXVVoZxN/Penny+Bright

    The happy couple smile for the cameras –

    http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/YO56TaLlNBs/John+Banks+Len+Brown+Quized+Sale+Street+Brewery/GWnM2GLtzEJ/Penny+Bright

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  169. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Tight as ….: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/2012_elections_electoral_college_map.html

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  170. tom hunter (4,568 comments) says:

    Clueless wuss.

    Heh, heh. This from the man who proclaimed what if a country doesn’t have a comparative advantage?

    My, you are getting scratchy. Quite the little martinet aren’t you? I’ve always thought you’d have made a good Lubyanka drone.

    I’ll deal with the rest of your usual rubbish on today’s GD.

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  171. Griff (7,008 comments) says:

    luc we will not the oecd ladder is shrinking away from us if euro is printing money and so is the usa our value increases in comparison

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  172. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    The tooth fairy too: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/7836061/Kohanga-reo-can-make-a-real-difference

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  173. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    The Messiah doing to the US what Labour did to NZ: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/oct/18/welfare-spending-jumps-32-percent-four-years/

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  174. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    “The offshore Taranaki Maari oilfield could ultimately produce more than 100 million barrels of oil”

    psst…dont tell the stoneagers…they will want a percentage..for nothing

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