General Debate 19 October 2012

October 19th, 2012 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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112 Responses to “General Debate 19 October 2012”

  1. nasska (10,834 comments) says:

    Okay, who slept in?

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  2. flipper (3,766 comments) says:

    Latest Gallup, national seven (7) day rolling poll (10.10 to 17.10) :

    Romney 52
    Obama 45
    • Obama has never been above 50%
    • No candidate has, in the history, of this poll, topped 50% in October and FAILED to win Presidency

    An indicative trend?

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  3. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    A progressive rag bites the dust: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/10/18/a-turn-of-the-page-for-newsweek.html

    An indicative trend?

    Lets hope so.

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  4. Keeping Stock (10,161 comments) says:

    So now that the White House has confirmed that Huawei is not spying for the Chinese government, will we see apologies from Labour, the Greens and NZ First?

    Or will the Shearer Burden of Proof apply; that simply making an allegation is sufficient, without fronting up with any evidence? And are unsubstantiated allegations the new black?

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2012/10/will-labour-greens-and-nzf-apologise.html

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  5. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    The United Nations human rights office (OHCHR) has just released a new 60-page booklet on sexual orientation and gender identity in international human rights law.

    The publication, “Born Free and Equal”, sets out the source and scope of State obligations under international human rights law to protect the human rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex people.

    The booklet focuses on 5 core areas where urgent State action is required – from protecting people from homophobic violence, to preventing torture, decriminalizing homosexuality, prohibiting discrimination, and safeguarding freedom of expression, association and peaceful assembly.

    The publication is available for downlowd (low-res pdf) here: http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Publications/BornFreeAndEqualLowRes.pdf

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  6. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Time to update the NZ polls on this website? There is not even the remotest chance of National getting a third term now.

    Obama below 50%?

    http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/25/july-24-the-incredibly-steady-presidential-race/

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  7. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    C’mon Prime Minister. Less smiling and more attention to the job, because your performance of late leaves a lot to be desired.

    http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8550105/key-slammed-over-drinking-vote-memory-loss

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  8. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    Revolving door (politics)
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    In politics, the “revolving door” is the movement of personnel between roles as legislators and regulators and the industries affected by the legislation and regulation

    eg immigration, road building, property development and xenophobia studies*.

    *David Farrar has a black belt in xenophobia studies.

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  9. iMP (2,312 comments) says:

    DPF your Shane JOnes speculation is interesting (I note theOilyOne predicted Roger Bridge’s recent resignation and that Obama had already won the 2012 election (now 7 pts behind Romney) – D’oH. A list then, of NZ waka-jumpers with speculation about poss. impacts on Lab. if Jones goes to Gucci-land. He would then be Shame Jones I suppose to the Red Flag.

    http://conzervative.wordpress.com/2012/10/19/waka

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  10. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    “is not spying” =|= “can not spy”

    Recent events would suggest our data securioty is woefully lacking anyway.

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  11. Zapper (949 comments) says:

    Thanks Hamnida. Zero chance? Wow, I guess there’s no point even trying to win then since someone like you, who has made false statements time and time again, says they have zero chance.

    Since you say this, I should get in early and get all liquid assets out of NZ asap. Done.

    philu also has a great record with such predictions. His record for the last 2 elections is 100%.

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  12. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    flipper (1,048) Says:
    October 19th, 2012 at 9:08 am

    Latest Gallup, national seven (7) day rolling poll (10.10 to 17.10) :

    Romney 52
    Obama 45
    • Obama has never been above 50%
    • No candidate has, in the history, of this poll, topped 50% in October and FAILED to win Presidency

    An indicative trend?

    If it can manifest itself in statewide polling which, so far, it hasn’t.

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  13. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    I’m no fan of Amnesia Keys but I do sincerely hope his distraction isnt of because he’s doing a brash.

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  14. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Luck for us Kevin, that the UN has no authority over any country.

    No intelligent and informed person would consider taking that organisation seriously.

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  15. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Manolo,
    The PM is very ill..as I have said on here before..Almost everyone in New York would recognize that he is ill..What ever I say on here , I say little about Key because I believe that there is something really wrong with him.

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  16. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Speaking of intelligence…some good jobs going here

    Intelligence Officers
    NZSIS
    NZSIS is recruiting for Intelligence Officers Our mission is to make a difference by providing comprehensive, high quality security services …
    > Government & Defence > Government

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  17. calendar girl (1,197 comments) says:

    Cartoonist Emmerson’s offering in today’s “NZ Herald”: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/news-cartoons/news/article.cfm?c_id=500814&objectid=10841459 is headed “NZ’s Neville Chamberlain”. It purports to compare the Key Government’s decision on Might River Power shares being provided “on account” to iwi in anticipation of their pending treaty settlements with Chamberlain’s capitulation to Hitler’s pre-WWII assurances.

    Personally, I think the so-called cartoon is just silly – whatever one feels about the fairly innocuous proposed iwi arrangement. It makes me doubt whether Emmerson even understands what’s intended.

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  18. questions (183 comments) says:

    Keeping Stock Says:
    So now that the White House has confirmed that Huawei is not spying for the Chinese government, will we see apologies from Labour, the Greens and NZ First?

    Maybe after all the racist fucks on there have?

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  19. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Oh please preferential shares and “we’ll cross your palm with serious silver later when no one is looking” is innocuous?
    The analogy isnt that great though because goebels wasnt Chamberlain’s Attorney-General.

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  20. wf (390 comments) says:

    Joana @ 10.04am said:

    “The PM is very ill. . . . . . I believe that there is something really wrong with him”

    * * * * * *

    He’s certainly looking tired, but then most PMs age rapidly, and visibly, in their 2nd term.

    I hope that’s all it is. My own feeling is that he won’t try for a third term, or will resign after the election . It’s a thankless bloody job after all.

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  21. flipper (3,766 comments) says:

    Weihana (2,481) Says:

    October 19th, 2012 at 9:53 am
    flipper (1,048) Says:
    October 19th, 2012 at 9:08 am

    Latest Gallup, national seven (7) day rolling poll (10.10 to 17.10) :

    Romney 52
    Obama 45
    • Obama has never been above 50%
    • No candidate has, in the history, of this poll, topped 50% in October and FAILED to win Presidency

    An indicative trend?

    If it can manifest itself in statewide polling which, so far, it hasn’t.
    ****************

    Wei..

    It is, and as a result Bob Beckel (A major Demo booster in the media) and elsewhere just 10.20am NZ) said: “It is all over.”

    I bow to his superior knowledge. Every single statewide tracking poll shows mov ement to Romney – some by marginsa tha will see “hard demo” states go to Romney.

    Remember: “No candidate has, in the history, of this poll, topped 50% in October and FAILED to win Presidency.” AND Obama has never got to 50 % in the nationwide Gallup rolling poll. 7% lead.

    Romney could yet go belly up, but there does not seem much chance for “Hope and Change”
    Contemplate, Wei.

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  22. Lindsay Addie (1,141 comments) says:

    Re the USA election I give more attention to the trends in the polls and not get hooked up on the actual numbers. We know that since POTUS debate #1 that Romney has started to trend upwards in the polls both nationally and in key states. In the key states there is much of interest:

    Ohio: This is very very tight and within the margin of error. I have a friend who lives in Ohio and know that there is a lot of voter fatigue there from the intense campaigning and the torrent of political advertisements on TV.

    Florida: This is trending towards Romney.

    Virginia: Seems to slowly be leaning towards Romney.

    North Carolina: There are news reports that the Obama campaign is retreating in this state though I must add these reports are unconfirmed but Romney has a good lead in the polls now.

    New Hampshire: This has really tightened in the polls and is now a real dogfight as are Wisconsin and Colorado.

    Pennsylvania: Unless it is a GOP landslide I don’t think Obama will lose here.

    As for the oft quoted Nate Silver I’m not convinced by this guy at all. He comes across as in tank for Obama and I think it clouds his judgement. On the other hand the weekly summaries of the Polls by Karl Rove (GOP) and Joe Trippi (Democrat) on Fox News are excellent and apolitical. The electoral map Rove releases weekly is very good. Others pundits such as Beckel, Juan Willians, Hannity, Dick Morris and Chris Matthews are all blowhards.

    As for the issues the economy is dominating and Romney is starting to dent the Obama/Biden ticket. This is borne out by polling and by focus groups such as the ones run by Fox News (Luntz) and one by MSNBC. Both of these were immediately after POTUS debate #2. The overwhelming opinion was that Romney sounds more convincing on economic issues. Obama lacks practical experience of the business world which was borne out by the “You didn’t build that” remark.

    The other issue there has been much talk about is Libya but many commentators in the US are to my mind missing the point here. This issue gets to the heart of what is good leadership and management of which Obama is vulnerable here though Romney didn’t nail the President like he should have in debate #2 (though a lousy, biased moderator didn’t help).

    Finally this is an election between a politician and a businessman. Currently the businessman is doing better. Why Obama and friends have staked most of their campaign on a “Liar Liar Pants on Fire” strategy defeats me.

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  23. kowtow (7,871 comments) says:

    kea re the UN.

    While no one should be taking the UN in it’s current incarnation seriously,that is just the problem. Most western democracies do and then import the madness from the UN leftist elite into domestic law.

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  24. hj (6,608 comments) says:

    10:05 Hugh Fletcher – a look back over his business career
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon

    “the only foreign investment we should be allowing is investment in new productive capacity”.

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  25. TheContrarian (1,080 comments) says:

    “Why Obama and friends have staked most of their campaign on a “Liar Liar Pants on Fire” strategy defeats me.”

    Because the economy still sucks and unemployment is high. What else can they do?

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  26. Lindsay Addie (1,141 comments) says:

    TheContrarian,

    I note that even the Washington Post is kicking Obama’s butt about his jobs record: http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/obamas-record-struggling-to-bring-back-jobs/2012/10/18/f59c6bda-0403-11e2-8102-ebee9c66e190_story.html?hpid=z1

    This is currently the lead story on their website.

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  27. flipper (3,766 comments) says:

    Lindsay.A ….
    Nice post. Cannot argue much against your conclusions. And liked your reference to Beckel, Hannity et al. Good point.

    But….
    It is bloody hard for Romney to call the POTUS a liar.

    The use of such an epithet on TV, while arguably justifiable, would rebound, would it not ???

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  28. calendar girl (1,197 comments) says:

    @ Kevin: They are not “preferential shares”, that’s the whole point. You too may not have understood what’s intended.

    But let’s face it, whatever your views and mine may be on Government’s decision, the implications are pretty minor for NZ (both the economy and the country’s racial harmony). Emmerson’s comparisons with Chamberlain’s misguided capitulation to Nazi Germany are offensive. Certainly not side-splitting cartoon material.

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  29. Lindsay Addie (1,141 comments) says:

    Flipper,

    Re the Libya issue, I agree with your liar scenario but I do think Romney in the POTUS debate #3 needs to look at as a management/leadership issue (think about as if it were a kind of business issue) and nail Obama that way, at all costs not get in a slanging match with the President.

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  30. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Taking a (not so discreet) swipe? http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/bill-clinton-romneys-argument-true-were-not-fixed_654893.html

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  31. mara (744 comments) says:

    flipper .. Obama a speaker of terminological inexactitudes? Gets rid of the nasty L word. Problem solved.

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  32. dime (9,607 comments) says:

    manolo – whats the context of that clip? i thought it was the onion for a minute there

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  33. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    You got it, dime.

    Actually The Onion commissioned Clinton to do it and paid for (as he demanded it) with three blondes, two redheads and 10 B.J.s.

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  34. Longknives (4,624 comments) says:

    Six years seems a bit on the light side to me-

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10841578

    But then, I can’t figure out how stomping a two year old to death is ‘manslaughter’….

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  35. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    flipper (1,051) Says:
    October 19th, 2012 at 10:33 am

    Romney could yet go belly up, but there does not seem much chance for “Hope and Change”
    Contemplate, Wei.

    There is a reason the intrade odds support Obama and that is because he is leading in electoral college polling. That in no way diminishes my concern that Romney way still win. :)

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  36. tom hunter (4,538 comments) says:

    Taking a (not so discreet) swipe?

    There’s nothing discreet about it, especially the – I thought he was going to cry line.

    But this should not come as a surprise. Bill was willing to do the right thing for the party and speak at the Democrat Party Convention, where his was widely regarded as the best speech, the best defense of Obama made, and the best attack on Romney and the GOP. If you wanted to know why Obama got such a good bump in the polls after that convention you need look at nothing other than that speech. He’s also been stumping the country, trying to drag Obama’s worthless ass across the line.

    I have little time for Clinton nowadays because of his atrocious personal morality (or rather lack of), but I’ve long regarded him as one of the smartest politicians in the USA in decades, and one of the most effective across the board, whether campaigning or governing, even when he was implementing things I thought were wrong.

    But he and Hillary have not forgotten the 2008 Democrat primary, where the Obama campaign slimed him as a racist: one of their SOP’s for dealing with opponents. Nor has he forgotten the general disdain with which his Presidency was held by true believing left-wingers as Obama assumed power: “triangulation” and the DNC became objects of disdain – and Bill with them. It’s well known that he waited for phone calls and the like from Obama during the latter’s first two years in power, requesting the sort of advice that all previous Presidents had sort from their predecessors. There was nothing. Same with the recent debate and campaign apparently.

    I think the Libya thing was the last straw. After that Biden debate and the “clarifications” the next day making clear that “we didn’t know:” applied “only to the President and VP”, Hillary could see where this was going and she “assumed responsibility” for the security failures of the State Department. That’s clever, because it leaves Obama and his court jesters on the hook for their two-week campaign of disinformation about the YouTube video. It’s the old D.C expression from Watergate: to leave twisting slowly, slowly in the wind. I’m sure that was Bill’s advice, perhaps even his idea.

    And now this. As far as the press is concerned, a couple of right-wing blogs predicted a week ago that they might start turning on Obama because, though they might loath Romney and the GOP, they loath losers even more. So does Clinton. What did he call Obama: “The Amateur”.

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  37. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Weihana, check this out: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/2012_elections_electoral_college_map.html

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  38. Keeping Stock (10,161 comments) says:

    @ Calendar Girl – and English noted the other day that iwi share purchases would account for no more than 5% of MRP’s total shareholding. In other words, there is still a bloc of 44% of the SOE to be sold to institutional investors and to private investors such as myself.

    Still, I hope that Kevin is being well compensated for repeating John Ansell’s attack lines about the great Maori takeover of New Zealand :P

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  39. Griff (6,966 comments) says:

    Justitia And the treaty
    http://lh4.ggpht.com/-d5meqqZm2G0/UH8qfssWk-I/AAAAAAAAWRU/ITl3gMX8is4/s1600-h/image%25255B5%25255D.png

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  40. OneTrack (2,754 comments) says:

    Hamnida (793) Says:
    October 19th, 2012 at 9:16 am
    “Time to update the NZ polls on this website? There is not even the remotest chance of National getting a third term now. ”

    Who will be the Prime Minister in your preferred government – David, David, Russel, Metiria, Winston, Hone or “other”?

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  41. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    @Longknives

    Its Nil Ziland…justice is a joke..6 years for killing your daughter..Im surprised he got that much…community service seems to be the norm.

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  42. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Ks and cg so if they’re oversubscribed I assume the iwi will have to take less share’s too? Tui

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  43. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Longknives, a bit on the light side? It’s because he’s one of Sian elias’s “blameless babes”.

    Poor little thing getting six years for stomping a baby to death.

    He should have got a few nights in the mason clinic then he’d be cured of his “forensic psychiatric disorder” and could be reintegrated as a useful and productive member of society.

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  44. tom hunter (4,538 comments) says:

    Nuts!

    … requesting the sort of advice that all previous Presidents had sort sought from their predecessors.

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  45. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    naughty little John english you…..oops he forgot he means no more than 10.2% of the share OFFERING. Well spun John the Helen would be so proud of you.

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  46. Tauhei Notts (1,633 comments) says:

    It’s general Debate, so I can ask this.
    Channel 96 will have a documentary on the Cuban Missile Crisis, to mark the fiftieth anniversary.
    Does anybody know what time it is on?
    Of course, it will have an awful Russian bias, but it will be interesting to see something from their side.

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  47. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Manolo (7,864) Says:
    October 19th, 2012 at 11:58 am

    Yup, and on current polling Obama is leading 294 to 244 for the RCP state avgs.

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  48. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    But he and Hillary have not forgotten the 2008 Democrat primary, where the Obama campaign slimed him as a racist:

    There was no sliming involved. The Clintons clearly pulled the race card out of their bag of tricks when Obama had them on the ropes, with Bill doing the dirty work.

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  49. HB (290 comments) says:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10841595

    sad story “Jewish graves desecrated in Central Auckland”

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  50. tom hunter (4,538 comments) says:

    The Clintons clearly pulled the race card …

    What I saw was that Bill, when asked about Obama winning the (I think) South Carolina primary, simply observed that Jessie Jackson had won there as well. So an African-American politician winning in a “southern” state was not unprecedented. There was nothing racist about that comment.

    And your counter-argument that Bill was pulling the race card would be ….?

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  51. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    hj (3,117) Says:
    October 19th, 2012 at 10:43 am
    10:05 Hugh Fletcher – a look back over his business career
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon

    “the only foreign investment we should be allowing is investment in new productive capacity”.

    Thanks for the link hj. Quad erat deomstratum from the discussion yesterday.

    Its worth a listen

    And a special thanks to Hugh for leaving us with this small nugget after feeding at the top trough for decades.

    I sincerely hope this means his Stalinist wife will go also.

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  52. Brian Smaller (4,017 comments) says:

    My favourite was Clinton saying about Obama that “a few years ago he would have been carrying our bags”. Gotta love those Democrats.

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  53. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    ” have one of the highest international indebtedness ratios of any country in the OECD, worse than Greece and Spain and Ireland….”…Hugh Fletcher.

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  54. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8550734/exodus-under-national-reaches-170000

    Liarbor going rabid…yes yes all Nationals fault , Liarbor =good..National =bad.

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  55. Longknives (4,624 comments) says:

    HB- Re the Jewish graves has anyone seen or heard from Kiwiblog’s resident ‘Anti-Semite’??
    Just saying..

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  56. calendar girl (1,197 comments) says:

    Kevin: “Ks and cg so if they’re oversubscribed I assume the iwi will have to take less share’s too? Tui”

    I would expect that, but I don’t know those fine details. Neither do you.

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  57. David Garrett (6,661 comments) says:

    Joana: Please enlighten as the actual nature of the PM’s medical condition….or is this information from the same source that says Margaret Bazley was once the bait in a honey trap (or traps, she was apparently very good) for the CIA?

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  58. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8550702/labour-promises-to-look-after-the-police

    ” Wheres the money coming from David? Wheres the money coming from David” !!!

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  59. tom hunter (4,538 comments) says:

    Luc Hansen really went on a bender last night when I suggested that the West had sent trillions to the ME for it’s oil over the years and that it wasn’t our fault if some of their thug leaders there had pissed it away, leaving their people little better off.

    And you blithely ignore the fact that the imperial powers, with the US as a leading light, particularly since 1967, either installed, cosseted or armed, or all three, ruthless dictators across the region for the purposes of securing oil supply security.

    You are using the Niall Ferguson argument of, “Sure, we killed you, we robbed you blind, in general, we really fucked you over, but hey, look at what you got in return. Ungrateful heathens!”

    You did not make that argument – you said we had done it for pecuniary advantage – and that might be a fair point if we’re talking pre-1970′s world, where Western oil companies actually owned much of the assets. But by the early 1970′s they’d had almost all of those nationalised, and since then such a claim is clearly contradicted by the trillions of dollars sent by the West to the ME for their oil, hardly a description of “we robbed you blind”. That was their local leaders who did that in many cases.

    And even on the claim of securing oil supply, the bulk of that has been from the American-oriented Gulf states, whose leaders appear to have poured billions of that oil money into health care, education, make-work jobs and a generous welfare state for their peoples – which is why they’re still in power! Hardly states of misery – well, apart from the usual barbaric practices that exist in Islamic countries, rich and poor, USA-aligned and non-aligned alike.

    As far as ruthless dictators go, let’s look at the list of what are usually considered the bad boys of the ME:
    - Egypt: Mubarak
    Merely the last of a line of military thugs who had presided over the country since the coup in 1953 – after which they sided with the USSR right up to about 1977. And speaking of “glossed over” – that’s what you (and the rest of the Left) do with the fact of Eisenhower saving Nassar’s ass in 1956 when the US president forced Britain, France and Israel to retreat from their invasion and takeover of the Suez Canal. No thanks there from that day to this.

    In any case there’s almost no oil there: the only reason the US finally sided with him was to keep the peace treaty with Israel alive – something normally applauded by peace-loving lefties except in this very special case. I don’t recall the Left objecting to anybody keeping communist dictators alive with economic help, like the North Koreans.

    - Syria:
    A long-time Soviet client, which is why Vlad The Impaler is helping to keep the blood-soaked Assad in power to this day – and for non-oil reasons. Incidently Hillary Clinton was saying nice things about him as recently as 2009, along with John Kerry, Pelosi and Obama himself: he was held to be a “reformer” who could not be dealt with diplomatically. I think that was an error in judgement – but unlike you with Clinton’s comments on Mubarak, I’m not going to pull your holier-than-thou stance.

    - Libya: Muammar Gaddafi
    Another Soviet client – and also a genuine Third World hero to leftists like you for decades as he pissed away vast amounts of oil money and left his people with a shambolic state and infrastructure. Of course the moment he cuddled up to the USA and Britain people like you stopped singing his praises. I expect amoral behaviour from nation-states, where murderous enemies become friends (such as Nixon-Mao). What’s your excuse?

    - Iraq: Saddam Hussein
    Oh no – yet another Soviet client, which is why his military was entirely stocked with Soviet tanks and other armoured vehicles, artillery, trucks, planes, rifles, missile systems – aside from a few that France sold to him. The USA’s contribution amounted to satellite photography to help him plan his battles against Iran – because the realpolitik view was that while he was a Soviet client it would not be good for the religious butters in Iran to win. A better take was Kissinger’s, who gave voice to the thoughts of a lot of Americans when he said it would be better if they both lost.

    There was the Rumsfeld handshake – but that’s just the ugly side of diplomacy – and I’d bet you would not hold anything against Goff holding hands with Arafat.

    One side-story that always intrigued me was the US sale of a bunch of civilian Bell helicopters to Iraq during this period. Designed for spraying fields some of them may have been used to spray biological warfare agents – and of course Far-Lefters like you used that to argue that it meant the US had supplied him with WMD! Mendacious in the extreme.

    The failure to boot him power at the end of Gulf War I, led to all sorts of speculations that the USA had played the old “our monster” card. Except that he’d never been “ours” in any meaningful way, but the USSR’s. Somehow they escaped blame.

    I thought these reasons were bullshit at the time but I did agree that it would have been nice to see the half-million man army travel down the highway of death and get rid of Saddam. However, I grudgingly accepted the pragmatic arguments against it. Those were perhaps best articulated by Dick Cheney in this 1992 speech.

    The left refused to accept any of those reasons, no matter how rational they might have sounded. To them they were all just cover for the real reasons. All the Lefties I hung with at the time screamed blue murder: Saddam was another of the US’s thugs and would be allowed to stay for nasty, cold-blooded reasons of geo-political realpolitik. Nixon/Kissinger had never really left the stage and so forth. And then there was Iraq’s oil, the argument being that Saddam would pony up good deals to the big oil companies in return for the US letting him stay in power – just like the Saudi princes, etc.

    By 2003 all of those reasons were emerging from the mouths of various Left opponents of the Iraq liberation. I was stunned at how many Kissinger clones had suddenly appeared in the Left anti-war movement. Cheney at least could claim that changed circumstances had changed his mind – I don’t recall any member of the Left explaining why reasons they had dismissed as pathetic apologetics and a false front in 1991 had suddenly become such rational and reality-based reasons in 2003.

    Perhaps it was that the reasons they had considered so “real” had turned out to be nonsense.

    - Iran: The Shah
    The eternal stain in the Western powers and worthy of an entirely separate comment. As usual with Luc, the truth is more subtle and nuanced.

    Any objective economic analysis will find the Middle East has suffered tremendously at the hands of the West.

    As a Far-Left polemicist who regurgitates the words of other, better educated Far-Left polemicists, you would not know objectivity if it bit you on the bum.

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  60. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Good Liabors a joke, agree with him. Every suburb or town you drive past modern, plush winz, msd or housing corp offices, but you have to look hard, and when you find it the police station is often in a condemned council building.

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  61. Longknives (4,624 comments) says:

    But surely once the Labour/Green Government tax the hell out of us workers and give it all to the ‘poor’ (meaning parasitic unemployable scum) there won’t be any need for a police force??
    New Zealand will be a happy socialist utopia….wont it?

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  62. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Neville Nero Key fiddles while the flight continues: http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/nbnat/1676653069-kiwi-exodus-across-the-tasman-continuing

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  63. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    “The House I Live In” (2012)

    An investigative look at America’s war on drugs and its impact on the criminal justice system, with a focus on the experiences of Nannie Jeter, a former employee of filmmaker Eugene Jarecki’s family.

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  64. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    Manolo..but we got 5000 Indians in return, cant be all bad, hopefully the price of a curry and garlic naan is going to drop sometime soon.

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  65. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Add to that aloo gobi and some paratas (no, not the Hekia type).

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  66. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    tom hunter @ 3.36

    don’t waste your time mate.

    Remember, Luc is a nudist,
    Luke says he is a nudist because of the ‘eye candy’ he gets at his nudist meetings,

    Luc wont answer the question. “would you take your child to the nudist meeting ?”

    Where have i got you wrong Luc Hansen ?

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  67. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    A reasonable number of those going to Aussie will be immigrants using nz as a stepping stone. With the troubles Aussie is having with nzers I don’t expect the border to be open slather for too much longer so you need to keep an eye on it as its a great comfort knowing its available.

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  68. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Very unfortunate and poor choice of words: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2219867/Barack-Obama-Benghazi-If-Americans-killed-OPTIMAL-Obamas-extraordinary-response-security-fiasco-Benghazi-massacre.html

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  69. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Manolo @ 4.25

    Now is this a case of what is often described as, ‘Stepping on your prick.” ?

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  70. publicwatchdog (2,225 comments) says:

    TAKING ON THE 1% IN AUCKLAND.

    19 October 2012

    Mike Giddey
    Committee Secretary
    Democracy Services
    Auckland Council

    OPEN LETTER/ REQUEST FOR SPEAKING RIGHTS AT THE AUCKLAND COUNCIL GOVERNING BODY MEETING
    - THURSDAY 25 OCTOBER 2012
    - 10AM
    RECEPTION LOUNGE, AUCKLAND TOWN HALL.

    Dear Mike,

    The subject matter will be the following ‘Open Letter’ of complaint to the Office of the Auditor-General, of which Sarah Lineham ( Local Government Sector Manager), has verbally confirmed receipt, Friday 19 October 2012:

    OPEN LETTER TO THE OFFICE OF THE AUDITOR-GENERAL

    Under s.18 of the Public Audit Act 2001, we the undersigned request that you please conduct an urgent investigation into the following matters:

    1) The allegedly corrupt ‘conflict of interest’ of the CEO of Auckland Council, Doug McKay, who is also a member of the extremely powerful private lobby group – the Committee for Auckland.

    http://www.committeeforauckland.co.nz/membership/member-organisations

    2) Please investigate how many contracts have been awarded by Auckland Council and/or any of the following Auckland Council Controlled Organisations to member companies of the Committee for Auckland:

    a) Watercare Services Ltd

    b) Auckland Transport

    c) ATEED (Auckland Tourism, Events and Economic Development Ltd)

    d) ACIL (Auckland Council Investment Ltd)

    e) AWDA (Auckland Waterfront Development Agency Ltd)

    f) RFA (Regional Facilities Auckland)

    g) APL (Auckland Property Ltd)

    3) Please investigate the following potential ‘conflicts of interest’:

    a) The CEO of Watercare Services Ltd, is Committee for Auckland member – Mark Ford.

    b) The Chair of the Board of ATEED – David McConnell, and Deputy Chair Norm Thompson are both members of the Committee For Auckland.

    c) Directors on the Board of ACIL, Pauline Winter and Brian Corban are both members of the Committee for Auckland.

    d) Director Evan Davies and CEO John Dalzell of AWDA, are both members of the Committee for Auckland.

    e) Deputy Chair Dame Jenny Gibbs, and CEO Robert Domm of RFA, are both members of the Committee for Auckland.

    4) Please also investigate the failure of Auckland Council to ensure that CEO Doug McKay carry out his statutory duties under s.42 (2) (e) of the Local Government Act 2002:

    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0084/latest/DLM171859.html

    42 Chief executive

    (2)A chief executive appointed under subsection (1) is responsible to his or her local authority for—

    (c)ensuring that all responsibilities, duties, and powers delegated to him or her or to any person employed by the local authority, or imposed or conferred by an Act, regulation, or bylaw, are properly performed or exercised; and

    (d)ensuring the effective and efficient management of the activities of the local authority; and

    (e)maintaining systems to enable effective planning and accurate reporting of the financial and service performance of the local authority;

    A Local Government Official Information Act reply from Auckland Council dated 21 November 2011, from Darryl Griffin, (Auckland Council Manager for Democracy Services), confirms the lack of transparency in the spending of public monies by Auckland Council, in refusing to make available for public scrutiny the ‘devilish detail’ ie: the names, the scope, term and value of 5000 contracts related to 12,500 suppliers contracted to Auckland Council, on the basis that:

    ‘To collate and publish these would be a major exercise logistically and cost-wise’.

    Further evidence to support this request for an urgent inquiry is:

    A) The LGOIMA reply from Wendy Brandon, General Counsel for Auckland Council, dated 10 February 2012 – re: Committee for Auckland – CE membership.

    B) The LGOIMA reply from Wendy Brandon, General Counsel for Auckland Council, dated 14 March 2012 – re: Register of Interests and contracts.

    ____________________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

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  71. David Garrett (6,661 comments) says:

    How do you pay your bills Penny? In other words, how do you derive your income?

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  72. Nookin (3,154 comments) says:

    David Garrett

    She has her bank account number on her website and asks for donations. I have asked her about this bank account previously. She does not say whether it is her personal bank account or whether it is a bank account set up as a trust fund for her specific activities.

    She has also refused to say whether she should be publicising a proposed action plan and expenditure so that people know exactly what they are supporting and how the money will be spent.

    I have also asked her, previously, whether she thinks that she should publish accounts, disclose and what money she received, how was applied and whether people who have made donations have got the moneys worth.

    Unfortunately, donors never get to see any sort of cost/benefit analysis. They do not know whether the money is being spent on groceries, dead raccoons for headgear or legal fees for defending trespass and other prosecutions.

    There is a certain lack of transparency about her activities and the manner in which she spends or intends to spend money solicited from the public. Certainly, there appears to be a complete lack of accountability.

    Do you sense an element of hypocrisy?

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  73. Longknives (4,624 comments) says:

    Nookin- The raccoon on the head was quite the fashion in the ‘Old West’

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coonskin_cap

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  74. nasska (10,834 comments) says:

    Nookin

    Certainly there’s a lack of the transparency one would expect should one be seeking a public watchdog.

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  75. Fletch (6,104 comments) says:

    OK, this is kind of weird, but it’s a tongue in cheek ‘mockumentary’ starring Jon Hamm from ‘Madmen’ in which they do a shot-for-shot remake of the television opening sequence from 80s TV series ‘Simon and Simon’.

    What is “The Greatest Event in Television History”? As host Jeff Probst helpfully explains, it is “a shot-for-shot recreation of the opening title sequence of the 1980s television show ‘Simon & Simon’ with ‘Mad Men”s Jon Hamm and ‘Parks and Recreation”s Adam Scott.”

    For those interested, the actual title sequence remake is at 8:51 https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sX1kCun566k#t=529s

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  76. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    More bleating on Campbell live tonight.

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  77. Redbaiter (7,852 comments) says:

    A list of environmental industry losers that that great capitalist genius and economically savvy Obama picked as winners.

    National’s Nick Smith is another POS socialist who thinks he can use taxpayer’s money and pick winners and losers. Have a look at this list of failures Smith-

    The complete list of faltering or bankrupt green-energy companies:

    Evergreen Solar ($24 million)*
    SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
    Solyndra ($535 million)*
    Beacon Power ($69 million)*
    AES’s subsidiary Eastern Energy ($17.1 million)
    Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
    SunPower ($1.5 billion)
    First Solar ($1.46 billion)
    Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
    EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
    Amonix ($5.9 million)
    National Renewable Energy Lab ($200 million)
    Fisker Automotive ($528 million)
    Abound Solar ($374 million)*
    A123 Systems ($279 million)*
    Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($6 million)
    Johnson Controls ($299 million)
    Schneider Electric ($86 million)
    Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
    ECOtality ($126.2 million)
    Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
    Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
    Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
    Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
    Range Fuels ($80 million)*
    Thompson River Power ($6.4 million)*
    Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
    LSP Energy ($2.1 billion)*
    UniSolar ($100 million)*
    Azure Dynamics ($120 million)*
    GreenVolts ($500,000)
    Vestas ($50 million)
    LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($150 million)
    Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
    Navistar ($10 million)
    Satcon ($3 million)*

    *Denotes companies that have filed for bankruptcy.

    Be interesting to see what’s going on with the companies Smith poured NZ taxpayer money into.

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  78. Longknives (4,624 comments) says:

    Does anybody on the planet still think OJ was set up by ‘Racist Cops’?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2219166/OJ-Simpson-kept-knife-used-kill-wife-Nicole-Ron-Goldman-trying-sell-5-MILLION.html

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  79. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Kevin, why do you waste your time watching the moron Campbell? Incredible.

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  80. Yvette (2,736 comments) says:

    If the Mighty River Power stations in some way impede what may have been an iwi customary right, they have surely done so for about 75 years, so can whatever it was still be customary any longer?

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  81. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Oh actually it was about the novo pay cockup for school teachers – they have a legitimate point. Another scam like the diagnostic labs scam in Auckland. It wasn’t broke but someone can make some bucks out of fixing it anyway.

    Generally I don’t but watched last night to see what the whackers were up to. All they could find to trot out was a woman with 8kids who should never have had them in the first place.

    But the fecundity of the underclass is quite a worrying issue, ably aided and abetted by the welfare state and the (private!) MSM

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  82. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Shhh yvette, back pay. Oops too late precedent set by getting 220 mil back pay for rental in the tree lords scam

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  83. Fletch (6,104 comments) says:

    Romney, slaying them in the aisles with his one liners at Al Smith dinner (and at the expense of Obama, who is also in the room).

    Love the swipe at Obama regarding St Peter being told, “if you got a Church, you didn’t build that” :lol:

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  84. Fletch (6,104 comments) says:

    Oh, and “in the spirit of Sesame Street, the presidents remarks are brought to you by the letter ‘O’, and the number 16 trillion”…

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  85. nasska (10,834 comments) says:

    A woman and her little girl were visiting the grave of the little girl’s grandmother. On their way through the cemetery back to the car, the little girl asked, “Mummy, do they ever bury two people in the same grave?”
    “Of course not, dear.” replied the mother, “Why would you think that?”
    “The gravestone back there said, ‘Here lies a lawyer and an honest man.’”

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  86. David Garrett (6,661 comments) says:

    I guess Joana and Penny must be busy…

    “Transparency campaigner charged with tax evasion”

    Has a certain ring to it….

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  87. chiz (1,129 comments) says:

    But how did it get there? Doctors remove dildo from man’s intestines.

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  88. nasska (10,834 comments) says:

    I understand there is anecdotal evidence which indicates that people frequently fall on the things when they are taking a shower Chiz.

    And I bet you thought four wheel biking & mountain climbing were risky activities. :)

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  89. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Choosing between two comedians. Sounds a lot like politics to me.

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  90. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    tom hunter (3,684) Says:
    October 19th, 2012 at 3:36 pm

    Thanks for your notes, Tom.

    Your ability to cherry pick to suit a world view plainly anchored in the past is truly awesome, as is your constant refrain of selecting arguments to bolster your case that I haven’t gone near – and most I have never heard of, so why you project them my way is beyond me.

    The Soviet Union and the cold war ended long ago, and even before that the Soviet influence was diminishing along with its economic clout. But yes, there are some states the US has had little to do with (or, who managed to slip the noose, temporarily), but its support for the rogue state of Israel and a long line of dictators in major oil producing nations has blighted the region. Just look at Bahrein right now. And the public slavering over the Saudi dictators. And the reluctance of the US to openly support the Arab Spring protestors until global public pressure became too much for Obama.

    I’m afraid your line of ‘local thugs’ glosses over the reality that the Middle East was set up to fail when it was cynically divvied up by the western powers after the war and the formation of a pan-Arab state was prevented from occurring. You can babble and deflect all you like, but a high degree of responsibility for the success of the dictators you mention lies in the environment created by, especially, France, the US and Britain.

    Israel’s job is to keep the region in a constantly unstable state and this also plays into the hands of the resident dictators to resist demands for democracy (and into the hands of Israel’s increasingly authoritarian rulers). Israel could not perform this task without US support which is at truly obscene levels now – it’s disgusting, billions every year while its own people die in the streets because they can’t afford insurance on a minimum wage of $7.50.

    Libya: Gaddafi – Tony Blair’s best friend., remember?

    Syria: provided the US with a torture palace for the unfortunates ‘rendered’ up for testicular surgery.

    Mubarak: He was never, ever going to abrogate the treaty with Israel, and that is why the US supported him so lavishly. The Clinton’s ‘family friend’. Jeez, how low can our leaders stoop!

    Saddam: He was a client of the west until he fell from grace, and he was provided with the means to manufacture chemical weapons. The motivation of the west was: pecuniary advantage.

    Iran: 1953. Uppity wogs daring to claim ownership of their own resources so the US and Britain turned the country over to the murderous Shah – is that the stain you are referring to?

    You are using this opportunity to relive your past arguments. I’m concerned with the present and the future. I can see the evil in the US empire as equally as I can see the good, albeit, good that is often confused and often counterproductive.

    These days one often hears both left and right (an entirely unsuitable description of US politics, but never mind) talking of the need to ‘re-engage’ with the Arab/Muslim/ME world. That’s wrong. What is needed is for them to <b<disengage, entirely, completely, until invited to participate in a benign instead of malignant manner. Buy the oil on the open market and never, never, engage in wars for oil. Get the money out of the military and build wind, solar, nuclear power plants and stop this incessant killing.

    Phew! That’s a lot of typing for a barely proficient typist!

    Cheers.

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  91. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Now that is all very interesting Luc @ 8.39

    but, what we want to know is, when you go to your nudist camp,
    do you take your children ?

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  92. publicwatchdog (2,225 comments) says:

    Ahhhh ……………………………. yep!

    Must be RIGHT over the target – copping the predictable personal attacks from usual suspects?

    Thank you SO much for making my night David Garrett and others :)

    Keep going!

    You are no doubt just encouraging a LOT more folk to read the FACTS which you obviously find so unpalatable?

    Some of us have been warning for some time that the Auckland $UPERCITY was a corrupt corporate coup – the Council Controlled Organisations (CCOs) being the mechanism for this corporate takeover?

    Have YOUR rates gone UP or DOWN?

    Shouldn’t we know where EXACTLY public rates monies are being spent?

    High time NZ had a genuinely Independent Commission Against Corruption?

    http://www.stopthesupercity.org.nz
    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

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  93. Reid (16,066 comments) says:

    Luc a lot of valid points. Some a bit off target but many are on. Sadly most people in the world still base their domestic and geopolitical analysis on their propaganda-fed subconsciously-held two legs good, four legs bad hallucination because doing otherwise and seeing how it really is, which is where your points hit the target, hurts their tummies. So they won’t get it. Instead they’ll probably get all hysterical, like little girls. Because you hurt their tummies.

    But well said, shame there aren’t more Luc’s on this topic. Sometimes on this blog, the level of political objectivity and astuteness in ME politics is as corny as a 1960′s American sitcom, except these days, it’s not funny anymore.

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  94. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    A very good performance: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/10/18/romney_addresses_67th_annual_alfred_e_smith_memorial_foundation_dinner.html

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  95. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Maybe it would help if we could all sit in a circle in the nude. Watching our children play.
    You know, ‘eye candy ” and all that, right Luc ?

    Hey Reid, you think it would help you understand Luc if you visited him at his nudist camp ?

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  96. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    I don’t think the only good Israeli is a dead Israeli is a particularly astute or objective political discourse.

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  97. Reid (16,066 comments) says:

    Bereal that doesn’t really merit a reply.

    Kevin I didn’t read Luc saying that. Did I miss that part of the conversation above or were you just extrapolating in your own mind that must be what Luc and I meant because neither of us are fanatically in favour of every single thing Israel does?

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  98. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    I think you’ll find its the general theme running through his posts.

    To be brutally honest the simple minded idea that the us is only interested in the Middle East for its oil is untenable, and ithe widespread acceptance of that view is a propaganda success story. Also Israel is a convenient rallying point for anti American extremists wanting argue the that the US is imperialist.

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  99. David Garrett (6,661 comments) says:

    No no Penny…not a personal attack at all! I am merely curious as to the source of your income…my reason of course is I would like to know if the taxpayer funds your obsessions through some kind of benefit…

    My income? Legal services, provided both here and in Tonga…

    Your turn….

    And I have just read the “substance” – for want of a better word – of your post…my rates have gone DOWN, but that is probably because values have fallend markedly out here…

    NOw to the source of your income Penny….

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  100. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Now that was a very humourous speech Manolo,
    i particularly liked the Sesame St quip about Big Bird,
    “bought to you by the letter, “O” and the number 16 trillion.”

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  101. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Yes I personally agree with penny. Council spent $20k on a matchbox sized sculpture in potters park. What don’t we,know about.

    Personally I believe that the ratepayer should have the right to audit every single bank transaction that council make.

    My rates went up 400% between 92 and 03.

    Rodney’s pathetic solution is to allow Len brown to borrow 30 billion for the Len brown gravy train, which our children will have to pay for.

    Is that the sort of stuff penny is talking about. Lets,stop the borrowing against our kids futures eh penny ?

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  102. Reid (16,066 comments) says:

    To be brutally honest the simple minded idea that the us is only interested in the Middle East for its oil is untenable

    I haven’t read that into Luc’s comments Kevin and that’s not my view either. But to be brutally honest to hallucinate the US is not interested in the ME because of it’s oil is similarly untenable. I’d go further and allege such a mindset is for geopolitical babies who don’t understand anything about anything re: why things are done in this brutal and hard-nosed world of ours. To imagine the US is only defending itself against terrorism originating in the ME not only belies history (study it) but also belies anything but the most trite and superficial analysis of the US and UK ME adventures since 911.

    Also Israel is a convenient rallying point for anti American extremists wanting argue the that the US is imperialist.

    No Israel is a convenient rallying point for people who wish to claim an objective and just solution means we should give Israel everything it wants without regard to anything else because they’re victims. I mean they were persecuted in the war and now they’re persecuted by all those nasty hate-filled Arabs all around them and what did they ever do to anyone. That’s the rallying point Kevin and if you wish to get real in 2012 then you HAVE to, not optional, you HAVE to, look at what Israel has done since 1948 just as you HAVE to look at what have the Arabs have done. And when you LOOK at what Israel has done you see western paw prints all over its history in great detail but if you don’t wish to be a mere shill Kevin then you HAVE to look at both sides. And most people don’t because it hurts their tummies because most people seem to think that the mere thought of looking critically at the actions of the Israeli govt and the western govts who’ve “supported” them [hint: why have I used quotes there? Advanced question] is anti-Semitic. Which quite frankly mate, is fucking nuts.

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  103. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    These issues have been debated ad infinitum on this and other blogs. Israel was created legally under international law etc etc. I have looked at history and it is clear that whether or not Israel exists or whether or not there is oil the ME would be a flash point.

    I don’t think people support Israel just because Jews are victims, and I certainly do not think that oil was the main motive for Iraq it was revenge yes, a genuine belief that sadam was dangerous (true) and collective guilt about the ludicrous decision not to go and extract the little bastard in 1991.

    Yes the us has made foreign policy blunders but they are generally not about the ME where I think they have tried very hard and got slapped in the face by a small minority of very rich elite militants who are quite happy to use their people as cannon fodder and human shields.

    They are the brutal people you should be concerned about, not the US.

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  104. graham (2,250 comments) says:

    Penny has previously claimed that her house is freehold, and that she has people living with her who fund her – in other words, I guess they are flatmates or boarders. Personally, I see no reason to disbelieve her on this particular claim. Up to each individual as to whether they believe her or not.

    Oh, and my rates have gone DOWN, thanks for asking. :)

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  105. Reid (16,066 comments) says:

    What you need to look behind Kevin is what good well meaning and well intentioned people like you and I and Luc and everyone else on this blog look at, and look at what motivates the people who are in politics and in power, and recognise the difference between those people and you and I.

    To do this successfully you need to drop concepts like patriotism and heroism and righteousness and justice and look straight through all of that and look at them as they actually are. It’s quite easy to do in domestic politics since that involves idiots we look at every day and therefore it’s quite easy to see who are good, well-meaning people and who are complete bullshit artists.

    It’s much harder to do this successfully in geopolitics, since it involves sometimes, attributing venal and worse motives to those international leaders whom you ideologically agree with and see that, hey: the emperor has no clothes.

    And that creates cognitive dissonance a.k.a. sore tummies. Most people can’t do it. No-one however thinks they have cognitive dissonance because it’s part of who they think they are. The key to recognising whether or not you have it is: what is your reaction to contra intel. i.e. that which alleges something that totally contradicts your world view. Like say, Israel is a thug nation. What does that statement say to you. That’s the extent to which you have cognitive dissonance.

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  106. tom hunter (4,538 comments) says:

    and most I have never heard of,

    Never a truer word spoken by you.

    … and even before that the Soviet influence was diminishing along with its economic clout.

    Luc reckons that the last thoughts of Iranian soldiers crushed by Iraqi T-62 tanks was, “this is the fault of the USA”.

    But yes, there are some states the US has had little to do with (or, who managed to slip the noose, temporarily),

    Ahahahahahah. Shorter Luc: I put forward the usual US-supports-local-thugs argument and got caught out. The word temporarily adds a touch of polemical class.

    Syria: provided the US with a torture palace for the unfortunates ‘rendered’ up for testicular surgery.

    I can’t wait to see the link that backs that one up: “Hi Mr Assad, this is the CIA, we know you’ve been really tight with the KGB for decades, but can you take some guys off our hands?.

    Saddam: He was a client of the west until he fell from grace, and he was provided with the means to manufacture chemical weapons. The motivation of the west was: pecuniary advantage.

    My name is Luc Hansen, I listened to nothing that you said and so I’m just going to repeat the same old far-Left bullshit again. But if you want to blame the Germans for building pesticide factories, be my guest. Just remember the key words: “dual use””. The Germans were a bit shocked when they found that out too.

    Israel’s job is to keep the region in a constantly unstable state and this also plays into the hands of the resident dictators to resist demands for democracy..

    You have no right to ever again tease Reid about his Jewish conspiracy theories.

    You can babble and deflect all you like,

    They’re called reasoned arguments, and they’re are not refuted by merely repeating the same, tired, old assertions.

    Phew! That’s a lot of typing for a barely proficient typist! thinker.

    Iran: 1953. Uppity wogs daring to claim ownership of their own resources so the US and Britain turned the country over to the murderous Shah – is that the stain you are referring to?

    As I said earlier, a topic worthy of a separate comment.

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  107. graham (2,250 comments) says:

    Kevin at 10:15 pm -

    Penny does have the very occasional valid point. Regretfully, she usually manages to go WAAAAAY over the top with her conspiracy theories, wild accusations, witch-hunts (which tend to be politically motivated) and somewhat ludicrous comments, thus ensuring that no reasonable person will take her seriously.

    She is also exceedingly hypocritical, which I find somewhat annoying.

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  108. David Garrett (6,661 comments) says:

    graham: If her funding is from like minded well wishers – some of whom even work for a living – all well and good…but why doesn’t she simply say so here?

    Mind you, it is getting late, and she is clearly no spring chicken… Perhaps she will come back to us after a good hearty bowl of lentils in the morning…

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  109. Reid (16,066 comments) says:

    You have no right to ever again tease Reid about his Jewish conspiracy theories.

    Tom, it’s history. Facts. What school did you attend? (It’s just it doesn’t appear to have been a very good one, that’s all.)

    BTW, what specific “Jewish conspiracy theories” have you hallucinated I’ve been discussing? Pray elucidate.

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  110. Longknives (4,624 comments) says:

    Re Penny and her Lentils-

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  111. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    The end of this bloody tyrant? http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/10/18/3056621/fidel-castro-suffered-a-stroke.html

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  112. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Yes Reid I agree in principle with what you say about politicians, national and international esp the UN.

    But Israel a thug nation? To say that out of context is getting close to the anti-American trump card -That McDonald’s fatty chips are an instrument of American imperialism.

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