The Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum

October 28th, 2012 at 9:00 am by David Farrar

This was Security Prison 21 (S-21) and is now the Tuol Sleng Museum. Tuol Sleng means Hill of the Poisonous Trees.

It used to be a high school, but was turned into a torture centre. Around 17,000 to 20,000 were imprisoned here, with as many as 1,500 at a time. Almost all of them were tortured until they confessed to something.

When this place was liberated they found 14 corposes here.

The 10 rules of the camp, translated.

See those dark areas on the floor. That’s blood.

A photo of one of the corpses they found at the camp.  They were kept chained to the bed.

The torture included electric shocks, hot metal instruments, hanging, cutting with knives, suffocated with plastic bags, pulling out fingernails and pouring alcohol on wounds.

Pardon the reflection from the glass but near impossible to avoid. These are a small portion of the thousands of photos up on the walls of victims.  They were tortured and killed – not for anything they did, but just because of the paranoid genocidal rulers. One New Zealander also died at this camp.

The barbed wire was there not just to stop prisoners escaping, but on the higher levels to stop them killing themselves by jumping off.

This was a typical cell where one or more people would live.

The Cambodian flag flies at permanent half mast here.

Of the 17,000 who went into Tuol Sleng, just three survived.

The commander of the camp was Kang Kek Iew or Comrade Duch. He was free from 1979 to 1999. He lived abroad in Thailand and China and worked as a teacher of English and maths. He then became a christian lay preacher and once remarked “I don’t know if my brothers and sisters can forgive the sins I’ve committed against the people”.

He was right. A photojournalist tracked him down in 1999, and in 2007 he was put on trial. He was found guilty of crimes against humanity, torture and rape.  He was eventually given a life sentence with no parole. He is aged 59.

His prison cell will be like a five star hotel compared to the conditions in the prison he supervised.  Some crimes can never be atoned for, and his fall into that category.

 

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131 Responses to “The Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum”

  1. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    Almost enough to make the average Kiwiblog leftist feel ashamed isn’t it?

    We should never forget what the left are capable of and understand what the end game is of their constant attacks on morality.

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  2. wat dabney (3,755 comments) says:

    understand what the end game is of their constant attacks on morality

    It is their constant assault on civil liberties which is the problem, rather than the fact that their views on morality differ from yours.

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  3. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    Cling to whatever trifling and narcissistic delusions you wish, but deliberately ignoring the path that needs to be taken to allow such atrocities to occur, and be accepted by the population, puts you at risk of being seen as an enabler.

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  4. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    Redbaiter (1,250) Says:
    October 28th, 2012 at 9:41 am

    “Almost enough to make the average Kiwiblog leftist feel ashamed isn’t it?”

    Why? Can you provide a link to anyone from ‘the left’ who actually supports the atrocities committed by the Khmer Rouge.

    Once again; the rise of the Khmer Rouge was a direct consequence of the industrial scale slaughter inflicted on that country by the US, before the US bombing campaign the Khmer Rouge was a marginalised group.

    When Vietnam invaded and deposed the Khmer Rouge the US and Britain began supporting the Khmer Rouge against the Vietnamese.

    The establishment narrative does not fit the historical record.

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  5. grumpy (255 comments) says:

    Keith Locke, Murray Horton, just for starters.

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  6. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    grumpy (207) Says:
    October 28th, 2012 at 10:26 am
    “Keith Locke, Murray Horton, just for starters.”

    Bullshit, have you got a quote and a link to that?

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  7. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    “The establishment narrative does not fit the historical record.”

    What doesn’t fit is your supremely outdated belief that people still see any need to respond to your tired old worn out anti-US commie propaganda.

    Making excuses up for these inhuman scum. You sad old left wing excrement have no shame.

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  8. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Another reminder of the barbaric results of communism and tyranny.
    And yet, there are people who long for the return of such ideology!

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  9. wat dabney (3,755 comments) says:

    Red,

    Since these leftist crimes – from the Holocaust to the Killing Fields – were all perpetrated in the name of morality – specifically, the greater good of society – I’d say your chances of preventing them by appeals to same are precisely zero. Rather, you are actively encouraging them by stressing morality in place of individual rights.

    You can never prevent people from having their wet dreams about how they would make the perfect society if only they could abolish those frustrating civil liberties. Just ask Russel Norman: a thug in a suit.

    All you can do is constrain their abilities to act of their fantasies by stressing the centrality of individual liberty.

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  10. grumpy (255 comments) says:

    Yoza

    http://www.keywiki.org/index.php/Keith_Locke#Locke_supports_Pol_Pot

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  11. Drefetr (2 comments) says:

    Redbaiter: You’re either incredibly thick, or mentally ill — I’m not sure which.

    Assuming there were left-wing supporters of the Khmer Rogue (possible, but unlikely) then I am sure it was prior to the extent of the crimes (the murders, tortures, rapes, etc.) were revealed. I can’t imagine anyone today — with full knowledge of these historical atrocities would support the Khmer Rogue (left, or right).

    And you know what? That’s fine.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with modifying one’s view once (further) evidence has come to light.

    Although, I’d wager that you disagree with that assertion; which probably explains your impressive (as in, left an impression) level of ignorance, and your myopic world-view.

    Grumpy: Alright then, you’ve made the assertion, now provide the evidence.

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  12. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    “Since these leftist crimes – from the Holocaust to the Killing Fields – were all perpetrated in the name of morality ”

    Utter delusional crap. The incremental removal of basic innate moral constraints and the demonising of certain sections of society (much the same as what is going on in so many other western countries today) by government/ political movement is what allowed this to happen.

    For example your own demented and fixated hatred of Christianity would have made you a back slapping comrade of old Pol Pot and his boys.

    Christians did no harm with their ten commandments, a non subtle method of transferring a basic moral code to those who lacked opportunity to acquire such codes elsewhere.

    Since secularists have waged war on Christianity, and wiped those commandments from the social landscape, and REPLACED THEM WITH NOTHING other than the liberal mantra that all morality is relative and if it feels good its OK to do it, we have descended into crime and mayhem, and this kind of descent is frequently in history only a forerunner to the events that are the subject of this post.

    Look up “demoralisation”.

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  13. Chicken Little (793 comments) says:

    The most interesting thing about S21 is that ALL the people (except for a dozen or so foreigners) imprisoned and killed there were Khmer Rouge cadres suspected of mostly being ‘CIA agents’.

    As each prisoner was tortured he/she would have to give up other members of their ‘cell’. So it spiraled with each prisoner naming 8 or 10 others.

    Comrade Duch worked for several Refugee organisations in Thailand and Cambodia. While in charge of the prison he saw all of his KR mentors come in as prisoners at various times. They were tortured and executed quickly in case they named HIM as part of their cell.

    Sad that you fuckers turn it into a left/right thing when it was just plain insanity. No wonder I don’t bother with this site much any more. Same old whiners whining.

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  14. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    Obama’s mentor Bill Ayers has a plan to bring a Pol Pot style regime to the US, and this plan involves the incarceration and murder of 25 million Americans.

    How do you Wat think that a nation can be transformed to the stage where it accepts such an evil event as necessary and good? If you had such an objective, what strategies would you put in place so as to make this despicable plan acceptable to the other 275 million Americans?

    Think about that and you will know how it happened in Cambodia and other communist states/ countries.

    Here is a hint-

    It all starts with incrementally breaking down traditional moral boundaries.

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  15. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    “Sad that you fuckers turn it into a left/right thing when it was just plain insanity. No wonder I don’t bother with this site much any more.”

    No problems, there are more than enough apologists for communist murderers here anyway.

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  16. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    It sends shivers down my spine to read the comments supporting socialism on this thread.

    These places reveal the true heart of the left and it is dark place indeed. Remember Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao came to power promising social justice and equality. All promised that central government would provide those things. The results of that thinking are self evident. The left tries to distance itself from this, its true history and legacy, and presents instead a vision of a utopia that has never been achieved.

    However, many of us base our ideas on evidence, ideology.

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  17. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    grumpy (208) Says:
    October 28th, 2012 at 10:47 am
    “Yoza”

    http://www.keywiki.org/index.php/Keith_Locke#Locke_supports_Pol_Pot

    Interesting. However, writing an article enthusing about the rise of the Khmer Rouge at the origin of their regime is a long way from supporting the atrocities they subsequently committed.

    Redbaiter (1,252) Says:
    October 28th, 2012 at 10:37 am
    “The establishment narrative does not fit the historical record.”

    “What doesn’t fit is your supremely outdated belief that people still see any need to respond to your tired old worn out anti-US commie propaganda.

    Making excuses up for these inhuman scum. You sad old left wing excrement have no shame.”

    The Khmer Rouge did not drop out of a vacuum dressed in black with murderous intent. There was a precursor to the atrocities committed under the Pol Pot regime, the precursor being the massive bombing campaign carried out by the US against northern Cambodia. Without that initial slaughter there would not have been a Khmer Rouge regime, the ascent of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge were a direct result of the US bombing campaign.

    I am not making excuses for the Khmer Rouge, I am pointing out that their rise to power was the consequence of circumstances studiously glossed over or ignored by the mainstream media.

    Where is the condemnation for the US and Britain’s support of the Khmer Rouge?

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  18. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Red, you may need the threat of eternal torture in hell to make you behave properly. But some of us do not need belief in primitive desert cults to give us morality. There are plenty of christian lefties out there, increasingly so in fact. Pol Pot is not a product of non-belief in god. He is a product of socialism. Both systems of belief are based on things that do not exist in reality.

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  19. bc (1,364 comments) says:

    Yes. I agree Chicken Little.
    DPF’s post about the Killing Fields yesterday was excellent. There was no political grandstanding just quiet reflection and sadness at what happened. I felt the same way.
    And then I read the comments …. big mistake.
    It was truly sickening that Redbaiter, bereal, Kea et al could read that post, look at those photos of dead bodies and skulls and turn it into another rant at “lefties”. Ghouls the lot of the them, so bitter and twisted.
    So devoid of any humanity, rather than wonder why no one was responding to their sickening posts, they gloated further about how superior they are.
    That was enough of kiwiblog for me. It was time to spend time with the family, get outside and realise what a great country we live in.

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  20. Dean Papa (787 comments) says:

    “Almost enough to make the average Kiwiblog leftist feel ashamed isn’t it?”

    said the shameless frothing loon. You need to get yourself a hobby, have you tried stamp collecting, Wussell?

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  21. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    >It was truly sickening that Redbaiter, bereal, Kea et al could read that post, look at those photos of dead bodies and skulls and turn it into another rant at “lefties”.

    Sooner or later, most threads turn into rants at lefties, before the ranters turn on each other on a Christian v atheist basis.
    DPF could post a recipe for carrot cake and it would probably go the same way.

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  22. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    FACE UP TO THE FACTS

    As unappetizing as you find this historical truth, this is what the left are and this is what they will do if you give them the power.

    Lame wet limp dicked wittering head in sand idiots and apologists (and cowards like DP) seek to make this about Redbaiter (and others) rather than face up to the truth that this is what the left do once they have the ultimate power they always are seeking.

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  23. Dean Papa (787 comments) says:

    Who or what are these “lefties”. We the good people of Aotearoa deserve to be better informed about our imaginary enemies.

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  24. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    “Red, you may need the threat of eternal torture in hell to make you behave properly.”

    Pffft.. what a wanker.

    When you so deliberately misinterpret and distort what I am saying, to such completely ridiculous lengths, all you do is make it abundantly clear that there is absolutely no point in arguing the issue with you.

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  25. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Predictably the lefties are flat out trying to wash the blood off of their hands, by launching into ad hominem attacks on those who oppose the likes of Pol Pot.

    bc, Mary …These things were done by your political allies. They purported to embrace the same values that you do.

    I am not suggesting you condone these things( it is noted you act as an apologist and attempt to transfer blame to America) but this is the end result of your ideology.

    How much more evidence do you need for you to re-evaluate your beliefs?

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  26. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    “We the good people of Aotearoa”

    In the obvious and absurd belief that you represent the people of NZ, you clearly need treatment for psychological disorder. Most likely a severe case of megalomania, but perhaps a serious case of narcissistic paranoia. I think Pol Pot had a similar mental disease. Its quite common among the left.

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  27. bc (1,364 comments) says:

    lol Mary Rose @ 11.57am
    Aint that the truth!

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  28. Dean Papa (787 comments) says:

    “In the obvious and absurd belief that you represent the people of NZ, you clearly need treatment for psychological disorder. Most likely a severe case of megalomania, but perhaps a serious case of narcissistic paranoia. I think Pol Pot had a similar mental disease. Its quite common among the left.”

    heh. That’s very amusing Wussell, coming from someone who has just above referred to himself in the third person. Of course, my remark was to be taken in a light hearted fashion. But, like a lot of the nutjobs in here, you appear to lack the necessary social intelligence to spot that. You also appear to be lacking in self awareness, a sign of your own narcissism in fact, Wussell .Which is probably lucky, because the vast majority consider you to be nothing more than an amusement. Only your fellow loons take anything you say seriously. If you weren’t such a narcissist you’d have realised that after you were laughed out of the NZ newsgroups. Indeed, narcissistic paranoia would be a fitting description of your good self, Wussell. You and Pol Pot have a lot in common. Who knows what would happen if you were ever given unbridled power. Luckily, that will never happen.

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  29. Dean Papa (787 comments) says:

    “Predictably the lefties are flat out trying to wash the blood off of their hands, by launching into ad hominem attacks on those who oppose the likes of Pol Pot. ”

    It would have been much better if they had in fact opposed Pol Pot, but I suppose opposing the “likes of Pol Pot” is better than nothing.

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  30. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    “the vast majority consider you to be nothing more than an amusement. Only your fellow loons take anything you say seriously.”

    Well, that is standard leftist fare for anyone who treats them with the contempt they deserve. In fact it is a lie and a cowardly smear easily disproved by assessing responses to my comments on Kiwiblog (when it was possible) and on Whale Oil at present.

    But just like the inhuman scum who committed the mass murders in Cambodia DP, you have no moral boundaries and will commit any depravity, tell any lie and spread any smear and carry out any inhuman act against those who oppose you, because in your mind such people are animals who deserve no better.

    You are Pol Pot reincarnated DP, with only the constraints of democracy and western civilisation stopping you from doing as he did. And you are of course intent on incrementally destroying those fragile barriers to the implementation of your (and his) sick collectivist ideology too.

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  31. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    Crikey!

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  32. cha (3,927 comments) says:

    Crikey!

    Ae, a deranged old man who’ll be dead soon enough.

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  33. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    Obviously irony is not your forte Cha.

    On a thread about mass murder by the left, you are blithely wishing dissenters dead?

    FFS, what an oaf.

    BTW, its about your buddy Pol Pot- not Redbaiter.

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  34. ChardonnayGuy (1,197 comments) says:

    As for Pol Pot, granted, he was a murderous butcher and his regime slaughtered one million Kampucheans. Let’s be honest about this, though. Neither neofascist military dictatorships or communist-led societies have glowing records when it comes to human rights and civil liberties. Rather, let us condemn both, execrate them utterly, and impose stringent sanctions against them…including the ones making instrumental use of religious conservatism, whether Christian, Muslim or Buddhist (ie Myanmar) to conceal their depravity and inhumanity.

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  35. cha (3,927 comments) says:

    But I’m right, you’re a deranged old man who’s nearing the end of his miserable life.

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  36. Dean Papa (787 comments) says:

    Ah, that’s clever by you Wussell, to pretend to rant as if you were a demented loon. But I won’t fall for it by responding with an equally demented rant. We know that you couldn’t possibly be that deranged, Wussell, so you must only be pretending. Nice try, though.

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  37. bc (1,364 comments) says:

    ChardonnayGuy @12.54pm
    Well said.

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  38. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    Cha’s comments (leaving aside the absurdity of his claims to know so accurately something he has no idea about) are a good clear example readers of the standard left wing strategy of argument ad hominem.

    Pol Pot and his followers used that strategy, and so do his ideological relatives in the present day use it. Rather than deal with the argument, and especially if that argument confronts the left with some unpleasant truth, they seek to make their opponent the focus of the discussion rather than the initial issue.

    Observe it well here, and be aware of it in future.

    Never dance to the tune of these terrible people, who constantly seek to say the blood on their hands is just red paint.

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  39. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    “Rather, let us condemn both,”

    Trust you to chip in with the usual and expected morally relative left wing bullshit. The commies are in front by about 150 million dead people but not let’s worry about trifles like that right?

    Fucking pretentious apologist idiot.

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  40. ChardonnayGuy (1,197 comments) says:

    What is morally relative about condemning both communist and neofacist dictatorships for those who they have slaughtered and butchered? You’ll notice that I am not making apologies for Pol Pot, the former Warsaw Pact, Zimbabwe, Mozambique and Angola, or the Soviet Union in this conduct, because all were indefensible. Let’s not play idiotic numbers games. All genocide, religious persecution and ethnic cleansing is morally reprehensible, so let us condemn it regardless of formal ideological affiliation.

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  41. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    who’ll be dead soon enough.

    So when will that be cha?

    When people like you are in power ?

    Your comment tells us all we need to know about the left.

    Neither neofascist military dictatorships or communist-led societies have glowing records when it comes to human rights and civil liberties.

    ChardonnayGuy, what is the point of that comparison between military dictatorships and socialist regimes? An appropriate comparison would be between capitalist free market democracies and socialist states.

    There has never been a capitalist country that has oppressed and killed its citizens in the way socialist countries have done so frequently.

    The fact that some other people have done terrible things does not make the atrocities of socialists any more palatable, nor does it excuse them in anyway. Recent history clearly shows socialists have installed barbaric and oppressive regimes, with no exceptions.

    But of course you know that and were only trying to confuse things to draw attention away from the reality of left wing ideology.

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  42. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    “so let us condemn it regardless of formal ideological affiliation.”

    Please fuck off with such rank hypocrisy. You turned up on a thread about the mass murders of Pol Pot’s communist regime and seek to turn it into a hit on Conservatives.

    including the ones making instrumental use of religious conservatism, whether Christian,

    If you had any kind of real education, and any grasp of actual historical political concepts, you would recognise true Conservatism as perhaps the only real antidote to the kind of inhuman tyranny you are trying to apologise for.

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  43. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    both communist and neofacist dictatorships

    Would you like to provide an example of a “neofacist” regime.

    I hope you won’t use the National SOCIALIST Workers Party as an example, because that would make you look like a total wanker, again.

    Its amazing the distortions you lefties will use to disassociate from your own socialist comrades.

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  44. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    That’s quite deranged, Kea. One of the first groups the Nazis went after were the socialists.

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  45. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    Yeah, that’s right Yoza, as uninterested as I am in pursuing your ridiculous self serving rewrites of history, I have to laff at the suggestion that the National Socialist Workers Party was “after the socialists”. You pathetic commie drongo.

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  46. Longknives (4,686 comments) says:

    So all this was Big Evil America’s fault Yoza??

    Wow..

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  47. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Yoza. Look up what NAZI means.

    Then post it on this thread, along with your apology.

    Also look up what the NAZI’s promised. Its pure socialism. Closing the gaps, a voice for the common folk…ect.

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  48. ChardonnayGuy (1,197 comments) says:

    Oh for heavens sake, try any of the Latin American dictatorships during the eighties, or for that matter, Myanmar and Buddhism today, or Iran and Shia Islam, or Syria and Ahwadi Islam, or the Taliban and Sunni Islam. Oh, look. Non-Christian examples.

    One other thing, historical illiterates. I seem to recall that the Nazis banned, tortured and persecuted Communists amongst their other victims. You were saying?

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  49. wat dabney (3,755 comments) says:

    Red,

    You seem to be completely unaware of the centuries of bloody crimes committed by Christians in the name of Christianity; otherwise you wouldn’t spout such complete rubbish. Not only were these appalling acts committed against non-Christians, they were also committed against those accused of being the wrong sort of Christian: Catholic or Protestant, according to which way the pendulum was swinging at the time.

    So, rather than posting so much delusional drivel here, I suggest you pick up a book and actually learn something.

    And if you insist that we take our ethics from the Bible, shall I re-post some of those endless and abhorrent laws and instructions from Yahweh, such as the ones which order pitiless racial warfare to be waged against neighbouring states, or the ones which condone slavery? Those are real and authentic Biblical morals which you fake “Christians” conveniently forget.

    For example your own demented and fixated hatred of Christianity would have made you a back slapping comrade of old Pol Pot and his boys.

    By the same token, your shared absence of belief in Odin and Apollo makes you a “back slapping comrade of old Pol Pot and his boys.” Say hi to his wife for us you fellow-traveller you.

    Look up “demoralisation”

    Look up “cunt.”

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  50. Shunda barunda (2,977 comments) says:

    You seem to be completely unaware of the centuries of bloody crimes committed by Christians in the name of Christianity; otherwise you wouldn’t spout such complete rubbish. Not only were these appalling acts committed against non-Christians, they were also committed against those accused of being the wrong sort of Christian: Catholic or Protestant, according to which way the pendulum was swinging at the time.

    You seem confused about the way human political/military structures have varied throughout the centuries. To blame these deaths on Christianity (ie the teachings of Christ) is utterly absurd.

    True Christianity has a traceable thread throughout all that crap and this is ‘thread’ has played a very significant role in foundational aspects of western democracy.

    Unfortunately, political ideology combined with atheism then unleashed a series of “bloody crimes” on humanity the likes of which would cause the most tyrannical popes to blush.

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  51. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    “And if you insist that we take our ethics from the Bible”

    I don’t and I never have insisted upon that.

    Go away you spaced out non-comprehending obsessive bore.

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  52. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    “One other thing, historical illiterates. I seem to recall that the Nazis banned, tortured and persecuted Communists amongst their other victims. You were saying?”

    Of course they did, for starting as socialists, and therefore needing to embrace totalitarianism, they ruled by terror and intimidation and by killing anyone (communist or whoever), who threatened their power. Just like Pol Pot, all you needed to be to be killed was someone who didn’t agree with them.

    I face the same visceral hate and intolerance almost every day from the current one party state socialist totalitarians who frequent these message boards. I have no doubt whatsoever that if some of my opponents had the ultimate power they seek, I would have been dead a long time ago.

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  53. thedavincimode (6,606 comments) says:

    wat

    I think you could have safely saved yourself some time by putting the full stop after word no 6 and canning the rest. Please, I know he’s a tough guy and a real hard nut, but you must try extra hard to not to be initimidated by him.

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  54. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    Just read mine of 1.04 Davincimoron.

    I honestly don’t know how you can be so perversely obsessive and not feel shame.

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  55. thedavincimode (6,606 comments) says:

    Obsession old thing? Logic failure there. I may have said it before, but if you stayed over at your little hate fest bog, I wouldn’t even think about you – well apart of course, from whenever I encounter something unpleasant on the footpath. But I’m sure that if you just went away or even threw caution to the wind and developed some new material, even that connection might fade away.

    So when you next see me respond to you sharing the love, don’t think of it as obsession. Think of it as me thinking [thought bubble font] “… there’s the vaccuous blowhard all talk no trousers loser with the puerile guns and glory fantasy who has no idea at all what happens when the metal meets the meat and who would soil his panties if he saw it happen or worse, if he realised it might happen to him. The sad little man who isn’t … really even a man.

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  56. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    You do realise that so far today you’ve left lengthy long winded messages all over this blog and nary a one that isn’t an off topic attack on Redbaiter don’t you?

    So many unnecessary and uninteresting words on myself, and none on any of the issues?

    That you appear so blithely unaware of just how sick this is makes me wonder just how crazy you really are.

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  57. Grendel (991 comments) says:

    Red, its possible that Yoza is right (though not in the way he thinks), in that the nazis first went after the socialists.

    If you look at the NZ political system, how many parties and groups are fractured versions of other groups.

    Since the nazis would have had some similarities to the socialist parties, it would be easier to destroy that group and absorb its members, than say going after a free market group. if you make your own group stronger, you reduce competition. by hoovering up all the random groups similar to you, its much simpler.

    Its something that the occupy movement tried, as it tried to hoover up all the minor socialist, and workers that groups. thankfully they did not have a demagogue as strong as the nazis did, so it all fractured again as the egos of all the little sub hitlers got the better of them.

    but its all part of the narrative of the left, trying to change history and redefine language, even wikipedia has the nazis under its list of “far right’ parties FFS!

    the other narrative they will try is that because germany and russia fought against each other, the nazis were not left wing, so therefore right wing. this ignores the key issue between the two. the nazis believed in the fatherland and nationalism for its workers party, the russians under stalin saw it as a class issue and that workers of all countries were to be united over and above country. this key difference saw them against each other (and other things obviously), but there general authoritarian murderous regimes were built along the same thing, just slight variations of the same.

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  58. BlairM (2,315 comments) says:

    It was truly sickening that Redbaiter, bereal, Kea et al could read that post, look at those photos of dead bodies and skulls and turn it into another rant at “lefties”.

    Well what else are the Khmer Rouge but “Lefties”? Leftism taken to its extreme and logical conclusion. I’m not saying your bog standard social democrat is a latent Pol Pot, but at the end of the day it is all about power and control, and bossing other people about in the name of creating a more “fair” society. It’s all a massive spectrum of evil. Comrade Duch just happens to be at the far end of it.

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  59. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    Heh, classic – Redbaiter, Kea and Grendle consider themselves as so far right they are further to the right than Hitler and the Nazis. So far right are they that they consider Hitler a socialist, the mind wobbles.

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  60. Grendel (991 comments) says:

    and yoza continues the myth and somehow wants us to believe blue is red, and that socialist = right wing.

    So yes i am more to the right of the nazis, because i am not a socialist.

    only in lefty land does someone look at something called socialist and decide its clearly a free market ideology group.

    hell, or even the bit where they also have the word ‘workers party’ in their name. thats really a name you see a lot associated with parties considered right wing.

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  61. wat dabney (3,755 comments) says:

    Red,

    Christians did no harm with their ten commandments, a non subtle method of transferring a basic moral code to those who lacked opportunity to acquire such codes elsewhere.
    Since secularists have waged war on Christianity, and wiped those commandments from the social landscape, and REPLACED THEM WITH NOTHING

    …I don’t and I never have insisted [that we take our ethics from the Bible].

    You’re not just an idiot are you, you’re apparently a very confused idiot.

    Shunda,

    You seem confused about the way human political/military structures have varied throughout the centuries. To blame these deaths on Christianity (ie the teachings of Christ) is utterly absurd.

    I’m afraid you are talking complete crap. The vile atrocities I referred to were all carried out by Christians. Wallow in denial if you must (denial is, after all, an essential part of all belief systems) but your gross misrepresentation of history just exposes you as a liar.

    Yoza,

    So far right are they that they consider Hitler a socialist, the mind wobbles.

    You mean Hitler the boss of the National Socialist Party? That Hitler?

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  62. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    ‘You mean Hitler the boss of the National Socialist Party? That Hitler?’

    Yes, Wat. It is called propaganda, Hitler knew being perceived as right-wing nationalists obsessed with militarist expansion would receive only a slither of support, the ‘socialist’ part of the National Socialist title existed to delude people into believing they were joining a socialist party, socialism being very popular at the time.

    Hitler was originally sent to spy on the German Workers party (later becoming the Natioanal Socialist party) by the German army, the suspicion being the German Workers party (all 54 of them) was a left-wing group, they were not, Hitler hated socialists as did his biggest right-wing backers in the army and Bavarian establishment.

    But, hey! You guys keep polishing that turd.

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  63. Grendel (991 comments) says:

    right, he was a free market, right wing ideologist after all, how dumb we have all been.

    so all the socialist things they did, that was just a smokescreen for when they were just going to pull out free market policies when no one expected it. funny how they deluded people into joining a socialist party, by being you know, socialist!

    you are a fucking idiot.

    of course you must have some proof of all this.

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  64. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    “you are a fucking idiot.” From the nut who thinks Hitler was a socialist. Heh, you gotta get out more Grendel, the internet is obviously affecting your sanity.

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  65. Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left (784 comments) says:

    so Grendel etc just ignore the fact that many companies made millions during Hitler’s reign using slave labour
    Oskar Schindler moved to Poland to make his intended fortune in a socialist paradise……..
    seriously, you guys….. :-)

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  66. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Yoza, it is not just in name that Hitler was a socialist, it was further defined in his policies.

    Protect the land/culture/language of the indigenous people.

    He wanted full employment and for the average working man to be valued for his contribution.

    He wanted to allow ordinary Germans a political voice and displace the old boy network that had a strangle hold on politics.

    He wanted to remove power from big business and banking interests (this is where the Jew got targeted)

    I guess we are lucky that no socialist party in NZ has any of those values……….. oh shit wait a minute…

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  67. Grendel (991 comments) says:

    Plenty of people got rich in stalinist russia as well, does not make them any less socialist. its a natural effect of statism and the corruption of socialism, while they advocate freedom and equality, the party elite always do very well, while the people starve. the state dishes out contracts to its favoured members, as long as they grease the palms of the party. if they dont, they get replaced (and likely killed). Its a standard symptom of the corruption that generally comes with socialism.

    but yeah, i am the crazy one to think that the National Socialist German Workers Party, a party who enforced left wing state run socialist policies, was a socialist party. crazy me.

    So where is your proof Yoza that Hitler was a free market adherent, pretending to be a socialist.

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  68. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    Kea (407) Says:
    >bc, Mary …These things were done by your political allies. They purported to embrace the same values that you do.

    Pol Pol was a Nat supporter?!

    Maybe the rest was addressed to others. But I think you missed the point that some on here were making. To my mind, using this to have a go at today’s lefties is as tasteless as if they turned up at an Anzac Day parade shouting how evil fascists are.

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  69. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    What a fascinating debate. And what a pity that the world is slightly more complicated (and always has been) than those who think that social democracy = socialists (including those National Socialists) = fascists = communists = mass murderers. We’ve even had an astonishing piece of anti-semitism from Kea. Good grief.

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  70. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    We’ve even had an astonishing piece of anti-semitism from Kea

    You fuckwit.

    Were did you get that in my post?

    I was clearly giving Hitlers view, not my own.

    The fact you had to jump in there with that ill considered comment tells me allot about you.

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  71. Griff (7,262 comments) says:

    Kea meet milky mike
    well known on KB for being a vacant lefty sort of weak white tea socalist

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  72. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    ‘(this is where the Jew got targeted)’ Your nasty aside, I presumed – it’s not like the overwhelming majority of Jews massacred were wealthy or powerful. Still, given the overall incoherence of your rants it’s difficult to know what exactly you are on about.

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  73. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    mikenmild, you are an arrogant pompous prick.

    Your also not too bright. I was (once again) giving Hitlers View on the Jewish people.

    I offered no personal view at all. You are just looking for an excuse to grab the moral high ground. Your a poser and a fake.

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  74. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Griff, thanks for the summary. Give me Redbaiter over that prick any day.

    Even though Red reckons I am a god hating, homo loving, marxist :)

    You gota love the guy though ! (not in “that” way Red, calm down)

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  75. RRM (9,770 comments) says:

    Wedbaiter – If you really can’t see a difference between this atrocity and the beige-on-beige, vanilla flavoured political left we have in New Zealand, then you are more messed up in the head than I’d previously supposed. Fuck off and take your pills, for christ’s sake.

    Or else else tell me you seriously fear you’ll end up in a place like this if we don’t speak up now against Waitangi settlements and gay marriage.

    Go on.

    Is this what John Minto’s got planned for us all?

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  76. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    RRM, you just don’t get it, do you?

    We all know and understand that the NZ left do not have policies of comitting attrocities such as this, but nor did Pol Pot, Mao or Stalin.

    The problem is the difference between what the left promise and what they deliver when in power.

    All socialist regimes have been oppressive and brutal. No exceptions. Ever.

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  77. RRM (9,770 comments) says:

    Sorry Kea you’re right, for a minute there I forgot about all those Helen Clark -era mass graves that recently got dug up behind Taumarunui.

    My bad :lol:

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  78. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    Don’t worry about that. RRM has just the character that would align with what happened under Pol Pot. He would have been right there leading the execution squads. You wonder where the people come from who do these things? They’re right among us all the time and pretending to be normal, but they can always be identified by their complete lack of moral constraint. Lying cheating smearing and hating, and doing all of these things without a care, they’ve already crossed the line that incrementally leads on to genocide. They only have to believe such things are “called for”.

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  79. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Clark would have used what ever methods were required to enforce her ideology. She would have if she could have.

    To make my point; Can you show where Pol Pot, Stalin or Mao, publicly anounced their plan to comit their attrocities ?

    You wont find it anywhere. What they promised was greater equality and social justice. They were selling a fairer and more equall society, with enough for everyone.

    The left basically believe that people will only do the right thing if central government forces them to. They will use what ever methods are required to bring that about. They have no faith in their fellow man. Minto is a great example. He is a hard line commie.

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  80. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    You wonder where the people come from who do these things? They’re right among us all the time and pretending to be normal,

    Correct Redbaiter. People do not understand that fact.

    Those people are here now, hidden in plain sight. All they need to emerge is the opportunity and the power.

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  81. RRM (9,770 comments) says:

    So a vote for Labour is a vote for torture centres and genocide?

    Thanks for clearing that up for me lads. I feel like I have a much better grasp of reality now.

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  82. kowtow (8,153 comments) says:

    Clark era graves?

    Maybe not graves but there is a silent genocide called abortion going on.

    But that’s a human or woman’s right so we won’t talk about it. Some day we won’t be allowed to talk about it as that type of speech will be criminalised. We’re not that long away from the Khmer Rouge or Rwanda or even the nazi death camps.

    No graves,just hospital incinerators.

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  83. nasska (11,112 comments) says:

    RRM

    …”So a vote for Labour is a vote for torture centres and genocide?”……

    Under it’s present leadership I have doubts that they have the organisational ability to get the facilities up & running. If you want guaranteed employment at the gas chambers you should vote Green just to be on the safe side.

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  84. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    How about answering my questioin RRM?

    ” Can you show where Pol Pot, Stalin or Mao, publicly anounced their plan to comit their attrocities ?”

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  85. RRM (9,770 comments) says:

    No of course I can’t Kea.

    I can’t find anything from the Key/English ‘Labour Lite’ Govt announcing their plans to commit atrocities either… whaddya think about THAT eh?

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  86. RRM (9,770 comments) says:

    nasska – on Red Alert they hate me and think I’m some kind of capitalist arsehole slightly to the right of Bob Jones.

    The only job I’m in line for at the Labour death camps is sonderkommando if I’m lucky…

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  87. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “whaddya think about THAT eh?”

    Can you provide an example of a free market capitilist politician who has implemented the mass oppression and murder of their own people, in peace time?

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  88. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    on Red Alert they hate me

    So you confess to associating with communists RRM !

    Don’t take their hate personally, they hate everyone. It is why they look to the armed state to cure societies ills. They can not concieve of people doing the right thing voluntarily. They seek to remove personal choice, because in the lefty world, people are evil.

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  89. RRM (9,770 comments) says:

    I can provide plenty of examples of left-ish Governments in English-speaking ex-British empire countries that haven’t implemented the mass oppression and murder of their own people, in peace time… which would be a much more sensible bow to draw if you were really serious about discussing the situation in this country…?

    If you want to tar entire whole political hemispheres with one brush, then presumably you must support Obama and the Democrats… because the Republicans talk about God a lot, and we all know that ideological religious political rulers are all like the taliban and al qaeda!

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  90. RRM (9,770 comments) says:

    But if you think it’s reasonable to make wild predictions about genocidal tendencies in NZ politicians based on what other 20th century genocidal maniacs did, then I think you have to fear them all, not just the hapless wombles of the New Zealand Labour party! :-)

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  91. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Religion and socialism have alot in common. Both are based on faith, rather than reason. Followers will maintain their belief even when they can see it is not working.

    You are still stepping around the fact that 100% of communist/socialist regimes have been oppressive and murderous.

    I am talking about the situation where socialists have had total power, not in left leaning democratic societies where there is opposition and alternatives.

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  92. nasska (11,112 comments) says:

    RRM

    So Labour will have you on latrine duties & the Greens will have you tortured then shot as a collaborator. Welcome to National. :)

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  93. RRM (9,770 comments) says:

    Kea (421) Says:
    October 29th, 2012 at 11:06 am
    I am talking about the situation where socialists have had total power, not in left leaning democratic societies where there is opposition and alternatives.

    Oh no you’re not, chump! ;-)

    Kea (421) Says:
    October 29th, 2012 at 10:15 am
    Clark would have used what ever methods were required to enforce her ideology. She would have if she could have.

    The left basically believe that people will only do the right thing if central government forces them to. They will use what ever methods are required to bring that about. They have no faith in their fellow man. Minto is a great example. He is a hard line commie.

    Kea (421) Says:
    October 29th, 2012 at 10:17 am
    Those people are here now, hidden in plain sight. All they need to emerge is the opportunity and the power.

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  94. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Yes, I have no doubt that Clark or Minto would do those things. I stand by that.

    I did qualify the statement by pointing out that this applies to situations where they have total power and are unopposed.

    Why would you suppose otherwise when history records (& current events) that all unopposed socialists have treated their people in this horrific way?

    Why can you not accept that the socialist dream has never worked. ?

    What is your evidence ?

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  95. RRM (9,770 comments) says:

    Why can you not accept that the socialist dream has never worked. ?

    What is your evidence ?

    New Zealand in 2012 has about the right level (IMHO) of what you like to call “socialism.” A little bit too much in some respects but only a little.
    New Zealand in 2012 also has just about the best financial position of any civilised country you’d want to live in.

    In New Zealand you can make it if you work hard, but if you fall over you won’t starve in the gutter. If you want to talk about “the socialist dream” – we’re living it. China, Russia, N. Korea, Cuba et al all got it horribly horribly wrong! :-)

    YOU seem to think that anyone who votes left wants to turn the country into a classic 20th-century communist militarist one-party state. I don’t really understand why you would think that…?

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  96. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    Kea, take it from me, RRM is another pig not worth the wrestle. He knows well that under the constraints of democracy and what remains of western civilisation, he and his totalitarian mates cannot do what they would like to do.

    That is why they are constantly and incrementally chipping away at those two restraints. He knows too that we know it. We’re not talking about what the left can do now, we’re talking about what they will do once all their strategic objectives have been met.

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  97. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Still you do not get my point RRM.

    I am only talking about places where the socialists have gained total power to do what they [really] want.

    If Clark/Minto had total power, you would see a very different side to them and a very different NZ. North Korea would not look so bad.

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  98. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    I have no doubts that most of the lying stinking cowards who represent the grass roots left in NZ would run roughshod over every civil restraint if they ever had the opportunity. In engaging with the left on the net, I am always astonished at what disgusting people I come across, especially the always present disregard for any kind of chivalry.

    With such little care for basic decency and morality, they are only a set of circumstances away from doing as their predecessors have so often done in the past. Make government big enough and powerful enough so they can kill everyone that disagrees with them.

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  99. RRM (9,770 comments) says:

    Oh I see, you want to waste your day with pointless, baseless speculation about what you “know” in your heart of hearts to be true about NZ politicians you don’t like, no matter what the reality (or the sum total of things that are actually knowable about them) may be.

    I think you’ll get on better with Redbaiter than with me. Enjoy your stay! ;-)

    (Personally, I think all National MPs are reptilians just waiting for the day they can enslave us all in Ponzi schemes or as serfs on their country estates. So there! Eat that.)

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  100. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Oh I see, you want to waste your day with pointless, baseless speculation

    No. I base my ideas on evidence and the 100% failure rate of socialist regimes. (You do know the USSR did not work out ?)

    Even the Chinese have woken up to that fact RRM, yet here you are defending this evil ideology.

    I think you’ll get on better with Redbaiter than with me.

    You may “get on better” in North Korea.

    I would probably get on with both of you, depending on the topic at hand. My views are based on outcomes, not ideology.

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  101. RRM (9,770 comments) says:

    Kea (425) Says:
    October 29th, 2012 at 11:49 am
    No. I base my ideas on evidence and the 100% failure rate of socialist regimes. (You do know the USSR did not work out ?)

    Even the Chinese have woken up to that fact RRM, yet here you are defending this evil ideology.

    RRM (5,614) Says:
    October 29th, 2012 at 11:24 am
    In New Zealand you can make it if you work hard, but if you fall over you won’t starve in the gutter. If you want to talk about “the socialist dream” – we’re living it. China, Russia, N. Korea, Cuba et al all got it horribly horribly wrong!

    :roll: Oh dear…

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  102. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    How about an example of a one party socialist state that did NOT get it “horribly wrong” ?

    Socialism is part of a spectrum. Things are not so bad here, agreed. But that is not due to the good intent of [some] socialists. It is simply a reflection of the amount of control and power they have.

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  103. RRM (9,770 comments) says:

    Kea (426) Says:
    October 29th, 2012 at 12:02 pm
    How about an example of a one party socialist state that did NOT get it “horribly wrong” ?

    Oh for fuck’s sake.
    Kea… Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once:

    I am NOT an advocate for 20th-century socialism or communism.

    I am NOT an advocate for re-creating that system in New Zealand.

    Now, returning to what I think was your question…

    Socialism is part of a spectrum. Things are not so bad here, agreed. But that is not due to the good intent of [some] socialists. It is simply a reflection of the amount of control and power they have.

    You sound like someone who doesn’t know (m)any lefties. So Please don’t tell me you know all about their intentions.

    In any case it is pointless to argue about the future of NZ based on the failure of 20th century communist dictatorships. Because the conditions that made it possible for communism to come to power in those nations self-evidently do not exist here. There is no grinding poverty, there is no famine & starvation, there is no real disenfranchsement.

    Even the best Labour Party front row you’ve ever seen could not sell communism in this country. (Let alone the Labour Party we’ve actually got in place now.) That is why I don’t share Redbaiter’s concerns that the 4th horseman of a socialist apocalypse is just over the horizon.

    I would need to be convinced by someone pretty clear, concise and compelling that there is any force in NZ politics that is capable of turning this country into North Korea. So far, I have to say you are not that guy.

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  104. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    In any case it is pointless to argue about the future of NZ based on the failure of 20th century communist dictatorships. Because the conditions that made it possible for communism to come to power in those nations self-evidently do not exist here. There is no grinding poverty, there is no famine & starvation, there is no real disenfranchsement.

    Many on the left are trying to recreate the conditions for communism in modern NZ. So far they are right on track too ! That is why they are forever trying to create special “victim” groups such as: Maoris/Gays/Womin/Disabled and so on.

    An example: Clark came to power promising to “close the gaps” and address injustices against Maori. She came in at fortunate time of economic growth across the Western world. No better time existed to close-the-gaps and address social injustices.

    So what actually happened ?

    At the end of her regime, the gap between rich and poor had never been greater in NZ’s history. The Maoris were so off-side with her, they broke away and formed a race based political party ! She passed legistlation singling out a religious minority who did not support her regime. She restricted citizens rights to give monetary support to her oppenents. (She broke he own laws around this and passed retrospective legistlation legalizing her illegal actions.) It shows her utter contempt for people and democracy.

    Once again, we see a pattern of the chasm between what the lefties promise and what they do when in power.

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  105. tom hunter (4,671 comments) says:

    It’s late in the game but one piece of claptrap needs to be countered.

    … the rise of the Khmer Rouge was a direct consequence of the industrial scale slaughter inflicted on that country by the US, before the US bombing campaign the Khmer Rouge was a marginalised group.

    There are two things to note about this. First, it’s about the most cynical rationalisation that could have been conceived, since the bombing ended two years before the Khmer Rouge took over. The bombing came in two waves, one starting in 1969 aimed at the Northern part of the country where the North Vietnamese were funneling troops and supplies into South Vietnam, the second in 72/73 at the request of the Lon Nol government to try and stop the advance of the Khmer Rouge in the first place. The last such bomb dropped in August 1973 – yet this is being argued as a reason for the “insanity” of the Khmer Rouge between 1975-1979. As Peter Rodman wrote in a 1981 American Spectator article on Shawcross’s book Sideshow:
    “By no stretch of moral logic can the crimes of mass murder be ascribed to those who struggled to prevent their coming into power.”

    Oh but it can, because stretching moral logic is a specialty of the Far Left. There’s also the usual use of statistics to make moral points: talking comparative tonnages of bombs with WWII is one thing – but it’s quite another to understand where those bombs were dropped. The major cities of Cambodia endured nothing comparable to the destruction of Russian, German and Japanese cities in WWII, and there are countless other historical examples where large-scale war destruction did not turn people into totalitarian, mass-murdering fanatics. Aside from this the bombs landed in the countryside, in a failed effort to hit small trails and roads, as was usual with the American airpower effort in SE Asia. As a result the estimate of Cambodian civilian deaths ranges from 5000 to 600,000. In one sense this was acknowledged by the likes of Chomsky when they argued that people in the countryside did flee to the cities, claiming that it because of US bombing in the countryside. Except that the flight occurred long after the bombing stopped – which means it was more likely to be as the critics claimed, that they were fleeing the Khmer Rouge rather than joining them.

    The bigger reason for the growth of the the KR – who were certainly militarily insignificant up to 1969 – is that the North Vietnamese Communists took over a large part of Northern Cambodia in 1969-70, and placed the Khmer Rouge in charge of it. That made perfect sense from a Vietnamese strategic point of view, as this aided the transport of war material into South Vietnam. But it provided the KR with a huge opportunity to conscript peasants and unsurprisingly it was then that they had their greatest period of growth from 1969 to 1973.

    But aside from the specific problems with this story are the more important reasons why it was dreamed up by the Far Left and given legs by the likes of Pilger and Chomsky:

    First, it can be seen that this is the international relations equivalent of the “society made me do it” defense that most left-wingers (Far Left or not) accept. It transforms the Khmer Rouge from aggressors to helpless victims reacting to aggression. It’s a perfect fit, akin to blaming crime on police brutality.

    Second, there’s the whole “Revolt of the Oppressed Masses” fairy story that has been a part of every communist revolution. In that fable the peasants just naturally went with the KR because of the American bombing, rather than the far more mundane process of a small cadre of vanguard party socialists conscripting villagers.

    Third, there’s the usual case for such revolutions where – having claimed that it’s a genuine “revolution of the proletariat” and then watched it all turn to the usual Robespierrean bout of mass murder – some excuse has to be found as to why that happened. Given the pure Far Leftism of Wobbly’s like Pilger and anarchists like Chomsky it can’t possibly be blamed on “The People” and there has always been an inability among such leftists (going right back to the days of Rosa Luxemburg) to acknowledge the terrible power of the Vanguard leaders of the people. It’s always a combination of “errors” and external “bourgeoisie” forces – like US bombing.

    Fourth, there’s the fact that every communist revolution had a Year Zero because that was part and parcel of communist belief. All previous structures had to be destroyed if a new one was to rise. As one KR broadcast announced at the time:

    “We have to build a new democratic Kampuchea entirely on new foundations. Everything that reminds of colonial and imperial culture must be eradicated not only on the land but also in each individual. One million inhabitants is enough for rebuilding the New Kampuchea. We don’t need any more prisoners of war (population deported in 1975) which should be left at the complete mercy of the local chiefs”.

    A Cambodia was bound to happen sooner or later and it is probably a simple function of the much greater size of the USSR and China, that their Year Zero’s did not reach the same proportion of killing as was possible in a smaller country. That is no reason to argue that it happened because people went “insane”, whether as a result of US bombing or other factors. It was cold-blooded rational mass murder to achieve a communist goal.

    Now how many of those reasons tie into the beliefs of the Western “centre-left”? Criminals are made so by society, especially in terms of the oppression caused by poverty. If too many people are so oppressed they will rise up in a great revolution – hence the need for Social Welfare systems, despised by many of the Far Left as a cynical means of buying off the revolution. And of course the never-ending worship of brilliant, smart, educated leaders with the levers of power in their hands – “bureaucratisation” as Luxemburg had it.

    That’s the reason so many of the Old Western Centre Left – the ones who had been victims of communists in one way or another – were so much in support of anti-communist efforts around the world, including things like the Vietnam War. And it’s also why the New Left of the 1960’s and 70’s so despised them and supported Third World communist groups. It’s why halfwits like Phil Goff raised a North Vietnamese flag in 1975 when Saigon fell: they were not just opposed to the US, they actually thought this shit was going to be better than the “revolutions” of Lenin and Mao.

    Which brings me to this point:

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with modifying one’s view once (further) evidence has come to light.

    It’s one thing to cut Luxemburg some slack over the October Revolution because it was the world’s first Communist one: she could only argue her fears from theory. I don’t even have a problem with Westerner who became communists in the 1930’s, when it seemed the whole democratic, capitalist world was collapsing. But what’s the excuse of Kieth Locke, Phill Goff, Helen Clark, and who knows how many lessor lights in the NZ left and similar figures across the spectrum of the Western Left in lending support to this shit?

    There is no excuse: Further evidence had come to light in earlier decades. Any basic understanding of the history of most revolutions, combined with knowing the basics of any flavour of communism, should have told them what was coming, even if they could have had no idea about how bad it was. The key question should be: have they and the rest of the Western Left finally learned the correct lessons now? The likes of Delahunty and Yoza appear not to have.

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  106. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Very good post Tom, thanks.

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  107. Dean Papa (787 comments) says:

    more incoherent babble from tom.

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  108. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    Of course! The Vietnamese made them do it! The US was actually carrying out the slaughter in Vietnam and Cambodia in an effort to protect South East Asians from themselves. No doubt every western white supremacist must internalise this clap trap. Vietnamese and Cambodians never rose to the status of human beings in the eyes of ‘civilised’ western commentators unless they were being slaughtered by their own totalitarian dictators.

    Thanks for perpetrating the stereotype that western forces slaughtering defenseless non-white peasants are acts of noble selflessness, yet when the victims of those atrocities act in a similar fashion it is a heinous crime worthy of decades of chest beating and a flood of crocodile tears.

    No doubt Tom is waiting for the Vietnamese, Laotians and Cambodians to apologise to the US for forcing that country to bomb them so mercilessly.

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  109. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Yoza, please go and wash the blood and corruption off of your lying hands.

    I think it is pretty sick defending Pot Pots actions in Cambodia and attempting to transfer the blame to America.

    At least we now have no doubt how YOU would behave, if you had the power.

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  110. Dean Papa (787 comments) says:

    Who in here is defending Pol Pot? This feigned outrage from YOU, directed at these imaginary offenders, is SICKENING. Have you no SHAME?

    (The Kea is an entertaining, and inquisitive bird. You must be using the name for the ironic effect?)

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  111. Redbaiter (8,274 comments) says:

    There’s Dean Papa with his usual cowardly intent. Making it all about Kea because he’d rather do that then actually argue the real point. These stinking commies are always the same, and they always have the same tired old strategies. Deflect attention from the real point by means of ad hominem argument.

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  112. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    This is my favourite bit: ‘ As Peter Rodman wrote in a 1981 American Spectator article on Shawcross’s book Sideshow:
    “By no stretch of moral logic can the crimes of mass murder be ascribed to those who struggled to prevent their coming into power.”

    Peter Rodman was the racsist nutbag Henry Kissinger’s rent boy from 1969-1977. Heh, credibility = 0.

    And I’m not defending Pol Pot, the crimes of the Khmer Rouge were horrific.

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  113. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    I was wrong! It wasn’t as much bombs dropped on the Japanese mainland during WWII: “To put 2,756,941 tons into perspective, the Allies dropped just over 2 million tons of bombs during all of World War II. Cambodia may be the most heavily bombed country in history.”

    113,716 sites

    230,516 sorties

    http://www.yale.edu/cgp/Walrus_CambodiaBombing_OCT06.pdf

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  114. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I will accept your figures Yoza.

    I do not accept it as an excuse for what happened there after.

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  115. tom hunter (4,671 comments) says:

    Peter Rodman was the racsist nutbag Henry Kissinger’s rent boy from 1969-1977. Heh, credibility = 0.

    Yet apparently sufficient credibility that none other than Shawcross himself included the entire exchange with Rodman in the most recent edition of Sideshow. I think I’ll trust Shawcross’s assessment of credibility over yours.

    Also, as far as the prior point is concerned, I don’t think this one can be beaten:

    The original Shawcross thesis is presented in undiluted form in “The Killing Fields.” It is presented didactically by New York Times reporter Sydney Schanberg (Sam Waterston), one of the film’s two heroes. The film shows Schanberg accepting the Pulitzer he received for his reporting on Cambodia. In his acceptance speech, Schanberg blames the United States for the Cambodian genocide.

    The ironies are manifold. The Times itself celebrated the assumption of power by the Khmer Rouge and Sydney Schanberg was among those who dismissed doubts about the benign intentions of the Khmer Rouge.

    In one dispatch, its correspondent Sydney Schanberg described a ranking Khmer Rouge leader as a “French-educated intellectual” who wanted nothing more than “to fight against feudal privileges and social inequities.” A bloodbath was unlikely, Schanberg reported: “since all are Cambodians, an accommodation will be found.”

    As the last Americans were withdrawn, another upbeat article by Schanberg appeared under the headline, “Indochina Without Americans: For Most, a Better Life.” In short order, the Khmer Rouge proceeded to march nearly two million of their fellow Cambodians to their deaths in the killing fields. Also in short order, Schanberg went on to greater glory and a Pulitzer prize.

    A rent boy for the Khmer Rouge – and with awards no less. No sneering for him from the likes of you, from that day to this.

    And I’m not defending Pol Pot, …

    Oh I’m quite prepared to accept that since, even from the utilitarian point of view of maintaining political viability, no Western Leftist could do so. Even the handful of fanatical Western defenders of Pol Pot that did exist are silent today – though that may be due to people simply having walked away from them in disgust. A shunning within leftist ranks.

    But you still express the basic beliefs that led to that horror, the same thoughts that Schanburg expressed in the pages of the NYT: smart, left-wing intellectuals fighting against feudal privileges and social inequities – in your case carrying the implication that with the genius Yoza in charge the whole thing would not unwind as all other Far Left revolutions have.

    You’re an evil fool.

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  116. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    There’s also the usual use of statistics to make moral points: talking comparative tonnages of bombs with WWII is one thing – but it’s quite another to understand where those bombs were dropped.

    Not responding to things like this is why you are chickenshit Yoza.

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  117. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    In fact, when you think about it, the kill rate of the bombs dropped in Cambodia was much lower than those dropped in WWII.

    Arent you going to give the US props for using more humane weapons?

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  118. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    “There’s also the usual use of statistics to make moral points: talking comparative tonnages of bombs with WWII is one thing – but it’s quite another to understand where those bombs were dropped.”

    If you look at the link I supplied you will see the distribution of the bombing sites, it was massive and wide spread. The data was released by Clinton on his visit to Vietnam: http://www.yale.edu/cgp/Walrus_CambodiaBombing_OCT06.pdf

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  119. tom hunter (4,671 comments) says:

    I will accept your figures Yoza.

    I would not get too excited Kea: the figures were released some years ago by the Clinton administration and in any case, as you say, the statistics are not the point.

    Whenever I see a hardline leftist like Yoza get excited about numbers I recall one of the hilarious scenes from P.J.O’Rourke’s article Ship of Fools, in which he joins a bunch of old American Marxists for a cruise on the great rivers of the USSR back in 1982. In the scene, the American’s bombard their Soviet tour guides with endless questions about the latest “Steel Production Figures from The Five Year Plan”, and so forth. As O’Rourke himself said: ““These were people who believed everything about the Soviet Union was perfect, but they were bringing their own toilet paper.”

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  120. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Yoza, nice little map of where the yanks bombed some forested areas. Thanks for that.

    Have you got a map of the where 20% (+) of the Cambodian people were killed by your fellow socialists ?

    How about a map of where the 70 odd million died in the commie utopia of China?

    How about a real time display of deaths occurring NOW in North Korea?

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  121. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    “Yoza, nice little map of where the yanks bombed some forested areas. Thanks for that.”

    From the Yale University extract: “The United States, fearing that the first Southeast Asian domino was about to
    fall, began a massive escalation of the air war—an unprecedented B-52 bombardment that focused on the heavily
    populated area around Phnom Penh but left few regions of the country untouched. The extent of this bombardment has only now come to light.”

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  122. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    “Five minutes after his conversation with Nixon ended, Kissinger called General Alexander Haig to relay the new orders from the president: “He wants a massive bombing campaign in Cambodia. He doesn’t want to hear anything. It’s an order, it’s to be done. Anything that flies, on anything that moves. You got that?”

    The response from Haig, barely audible on tape, sounds like laughter.”

    http://www.yale.edu/cgp/Walrus_CambodiaBombing_OCT06.pdf

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  123. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Thanks, again. for putting me right Yoza.

    Clearly they did not hit the commies nearly hard enough, given that they went on to slaughter millions of their own people.

    However many bombs they dropped it was not enough to stop the advance of your socialist buddies and their murderous ways.

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  124. tom hunter (4,671 comments) says:

    I’m sure Yoza will continue to miss the forest for the bark his nose is pressed against, so I’ll take this opportunity to repeat to him my key point about his whole “US bombs made them do it”:

    The major cities of Cambodia endured nothing comparable to the destruction of Russian, German and Japanese cities in WWII, and there are countless other historical examples where large-scale war destruction did not turn people into totalitarian, mass-murdering fanatics.

    To be more explicit: it’s not the numbers or tonnages or targets of US bombing that matters but the causal argument that this is what caused the Cambodian Genocide. And that argument is nothing more than a weak assertion with no reasoning that establishes the causal link between bombing ending in 1973 and genocide running from 1975-1979 or that can establish why this particular bombing would create such a link: the strange argument that X tons of bombs creates a genocide years later.

    To make another comparison: nobody argues that the Nazis committed the holocaust because Allied bombing was growing ever worse – driving them “insane”. At best US bombing can be argued as one of the factors giving rise to the Khmer Rouge, though less strong than others such as the support of other communists, especially the Vietnamese, but it in no way explains what they would go on to do once in power.

    No. The clearest, strongest causal explanation in creating the genocide is the Year Zero goal of a bunch of communist murderers determined to wipe away the old Cambodian classes and society so that a new one could be created. It is that goal, that desire, and that rationale that lies at the heart of the genocide, and because that has been one of the primary goals of every communist and “peoples” revolution, it must be denied or deflected at all costs – and Yoza knows it.

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  125. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    “Clearly they did not hit the commies nearly hard enough, given that they went on to slaughter millions of their own people.”

    You are a tedious little man, before you try again read the article. Perhaps it will keep you from putting your foot in your mouth, again.: http://www.yale.edu/cgp/Walrus_CambodiaBombing_OCT06.pdf “…the bombs drove ordinary Cambodians into the arms of the Khmer Rouge, a group that seemed
    initially to have slim prospects of revolutionary success. Pol Pot himself described the Khmer Rouge during that period as “fewer than five thousand poorly armed guerrillas . . . scattered across the Cambodian landscape, uncertain about their strategy, tactics, loyalty, and leaders.”

    “The Nixon administration kept the air war secret for so long that debate over its impact came far too late. It
    wasn’t until 1973 that Congress, angered by the destruction the campaign had caused and the systematic deception that had masked it, legislated a halt to the bombing of Cambodia. By then, the damage was already done.
    Having grown to more than two hundred thousand troops and militia forces by 1973, the Khmer Rouge captured
    Phnom Penh two years later”

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  126. tom hunter (4,671 comments) says:

    It took me a few minutes to recognise one of the names behind the “Walrus” articles that Yoza is linking to – Ben Kiernan.

    Unfortunately Mr Kiernan has a long and thoroughly dishonourable history with the subject of the Cambodian genocide, despite nowadays being an Australian professor who has authored books on the general subject as well as Cambodia specifically.

    You see, Mr Kiernan was one of the original scholars in the mid-1970’s who denied that anything particularly bad, let alone a genocide, was happening in Cambodia. Graduate student though he may have been, he was a leading contributor to News from Kampuchea, – a magazine specifically set up to keep Cambodians in Australia aware of developments in their homeland (naturally Kiernan preferred calling them Kampucheans, in line with the new regime that he supported). But it quickly modified its goals to refuting the terrible stories about the Khmer Rouge in the “imperialist media”.

    Even when the day came that he finally ventured to the border in 1979, in the wake of the Vietnamese invasion, and interviewed refugees himself (of whose stories he had expressed such savage skepticism earlier), the mea culpa was limited and devious:

    I was wrong about … the brutal authoritarian trend within the revolutionary movement after 1973 was not simply a grass-roots reaction, and expression of popular outrage at the killing and destruction of the countryside by U.S. bombs, although that helped it along decisively. There can be no doubting that the evidence also points clearly to a systematic use of violence against the population by that chauvinist section of the revolutionary movement that was led by Pol Pot. In my opinion this violence was employed in the service of a nationalist revivalism that had little concern for the living conditions of the Khmer people, or the humanitarian socialist ideals that had inspired the broader Kampuchean revolutionary movement.

    A brutal authoritarian trend in a communist revolution? No! Really?

    This is Mr Kiernan’s Captain Renault moment. He still can’t let go of his US bombing thesis but at least relents and admits that the Pol Pot “section” of the KR had employed the violence in pursuit of “nationalist” goals rather than as a “reaction”. That was enough to get him booted from News from Kampuchea,, as he sided with the “good” KR supported by the Vietnamese communists, rather than the “bad” KR who’d been murdering all the peasants.

    But that last point is just another familiar Far Left deceit – converting the whole thing into a fascist Nazi regime rather than a Communist-Maoist one. It’s no great surprise to find that thought expressed earlier by another Western KR defender, Malcolm Caldwell, who upon finding out that the KR were already murdering peasants soon after the takeover, confided to a friend that: If it is true that Pol Pot has also killed Khmer Peasants, [it] is a token of fascism.” Ironically he was shot by a KR assassin shortly after the KR takeover.

    Pffft. Thus do “good” “left-wing” communists become “bad” “right-wing”, national socialists – and this could enable Kiernan to apparently survive with a clean conscience, only to return to his theme decades later when new data on bombing tonnages was released. My, how sophisticated and intellectual.

    To again quote the figure you despise, Peter Rodman:

    “When Hanoi turned publicly against Phnom Penh, it suddenly became respectable for many on the Left to “discover” the murderous qualities of the Khmer Rouge – qualities that had been obvious to unbiased observers for years. Kiernan fits this pattern nicely. His book even displays an eagerness to absolve of genocidal responsibility those members of the Khmer Rouge who defected to Hanoi and were later reinstalled in power in Phnom Penh by the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia in 1978.”

    You were saying something about “credibility” and “rent boys”?

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  127. big bruv (13,678 comments) says:

    “In engaging with the left on the net”

    Yes people!, Bedwetter has been waging a ten year long battle with the left. In that time he claims to have had many victories.

    The only problem is that he cannot point to one of those victories, I have asked him to do so but as yet he has been unable.

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  128. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    “Unfortunately Mr Kiernan has a long and thoroughly dishonourable history with the subject of the Cambodian genocide, …

    Wow! You are really struggling with this aren’t you. The data originates with the US Air Force, not Kiernan. I am sure if you could find anything to refute this evidence you would have provided it, instead you launch into a meaningless character assassination. How pathetic can somebody get?

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  129. tom hunter (4,671 comments) says:

    The data originates with the US Air Force, not Kiernan.

    But the interpretation of what it means lies with Kiernan, and it’s exactly as expected given his support for and defense of the Khmer Rouge as the genocide proceeded.

    …. instead you launch into a meaningless character assassination.

    Heh, heh, heh. You mean something like Peter Rodman was the racsist nutbag Henry Kissinger’s rent boy from 1969-1977? That sort of character assassination?

    I’ve pointed out that the guy you’re quoting to push the theory that “the bombs made them do it”, was a full-blown supporter of the KR in the day. Far from being “meaningless” that goes to the heart of his credibility.

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  130. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    converting the whole thing into a fascist Nazi regime rather than a Communist-Maoist one.

    NAZI = National Socialist Workers Party.

    So they were socialists rather than………….. socialists !

    Can you even point to a “fascist” regime that has murdered and oppressed on the scale of your fellow socialist ?

    How many fascists regimes can you name? (for me one, I think)

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  131. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    Er,……”racsist nutbag Henry Kissinger’s rent boy …”</i. isn't character assassination, it is a generous characterisation of a monster responsible for participating in massive crimes against humanity and his sycophantic stenographer.

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