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182 Responses to “General Debate 11 November 2012”
Irishbill has added to the ‘Shearer must step down’ posters at The Standard. But even if Shearer saw the writing on numerous walls and stood down that would pose a number of problems. He can’t stand down now and render the Labour conference leaderless and pointless. But the conference is destined to be dominated by examination of his leadership.
I’ve looked at more problems facing Labour. And look at who might be able to lead them out of their lethargy. None of the obvious contenders do it for me.
Just looked up Wiki as to why Poppy Day is a different date in New Zealand as opposed to other Commonwealth countries –
New Zealand’s national day of remembrance is Anzac Day, 25 April. “Poppy Day” usually occurs on the Friday before Anzac Day. The reason for the oddity of New Zealand having their remembrance on Anzac Day happened in 1921. The paper Poppies for Armistice that year arrived by ship too late for 11 November 1921, so an RSA branch distributed them at the next commemoration date (25 April 1922, which happened to be Anzac Day) and that date stuck as the new Poppy Day in New Zealand.
Quote “He was a gentle, law abiding man”
As he was on drug dealing charges clearly he fucking WASN’T!
I also note that the Herald are clearly blaming the police for this guy dying, nothing to do with the fact he had a drug problem..
I have been reading the Washington Post.
The resignation of top CIA man, David Petraeus has the hallmarks of that old cliche;
“Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.”
Except it looks like it was timed perfectly by the Obama Administration. Left until after the election, but before the Benghazi investigation where Petraeus was due to testify, but now he isn’t. He was critical of Benghazi and wasn’t going to take the fall for it, and now this… Very coincidental isn’t it?
Lt Col Ralph Peters says the timing of his resignation “smells”
Maybe Axelrod and his Chicago boys had this sitting in their back pocket for a while, ready to pull out.
Can someone explain to me why a man should resign from his position of the basis of who he is fucking? We are seeing this happen around the world more and more. The head of the IMF lost his position because of a blackmail attempt from a known fraudster and hooker. Various other high profile men have been destroyed, because of unproven accusations from women. It is a disgrace.
One may wear a poppy today is one wishes to make a public gesture of remembrance. It is also fine to pause and remember whenever one passes a cenotaph, roll of honour or other memorial – there is no lack of them across our land.
We live in a liberal society the sexual lives of our leaders are often ignored. Georgina B springs to mind of an example of our tolerance
The Usa has a conservative faction with a lot more influence than we do
Think Red and Andre and fletch among others having a major say in a political party under a two-party state
American politics is rife with religious and conservative views. It is very difficult for an atheist to seek election in america. Here it would get a passing mention and be irrelevant to most voters. Liberals ignore sex as a factor in electing officials Conservatives stick their noses into bedrooms and judge.
It will always be very dependent upon context. Some militaries feel their people should be bound to a more rigid code of honour; one that perhaps seems a bit quaint by the standards of the societies they serve. Voters tends to take notice of the private lives of politicians to the extent that behaviour may indicate ability to discharge the public office in question. This will always mean that similar behaviour by different politicians will be treated differently, depending largely on which way the political currents are running at the time.
Another beat up article in the NZ Hoorald this morning titled Buyers Begging For Homes all about the ‘plight’ of homebuyers and a story about a Kate Sutton and her partner trying to purchase a home and the fact that they couldn’t buy a home in the suburb they preferred. Of course, the story included the mandatory leftard call for a Capital Gains Tax on housing.
The name Kate Sutton rang a bell, so I had a quick look…. Yup: Kate Sutton is a former Labour Candidate and Vice President. So here she is… photo in the Hoorald… pushing her Party line. And either the repeater Kate Wynn has been sucked in or she is complicit in spouting this Labor mantra.
Perhaps it’s time that beat up stories came with a disclosure statement… especially when political affiliations masquerade as a ‘story’. No surprises that it is the Hoorald. None at all.
Today is the 11th day of the 11th month – a day of very special celebration. Maybe a good candidate for a(nother) public holiday. 2 reasons:
The Free World at large celbrates the day of Armistice
The Ex-pat Rhodesian community worldwide celebrate the day of UDI.
Why Conservatives focus on sex so much is a puzzle to me. If I liked “the cock” it would not change my views on the core issues of how our society should be managed by government.
The right continually lose potential supporters by sticking their grubby noses into peoples bedrooms, with a promise to bring the entire government (into the bedroom) if elected.
Being a mincing faggot does not make you “left”. Most of the poofs I know are self employed business people. They are potential allies, but do want their basic freedoms protected from zealots. The whole thing is such a non issue and important issues are side lined while there is public debate about who we are allowed to fuck.
Did you find it a bit tasteless to ‘celebrate’ the end of the Great War for Civilization and the long war against majority rule in Zimbabwe on the same day
We don’t ‘celebrate’ these things here. We commemorate those who gave their lives for the freedoms we cherish here in New Zealand.
Zim is doing so much better now they have got rid of all those evil white people, who were running the show. Just as South Africa is going from strength to strength. All those former colonies in Africa now have some of the highest standards of living in the world. Infant mortality, life expectancy and a raft of other social indicators are all looking great. We should celebrate that.
Elaycee, I came here to point out the exact same thing. It was the mention of captial gains tax that had me suspicious. It’s amazing how the Herald keep finding these everyday people who just happen to be Labour activists.
Absolute madness! Haven’t these sticky beak pen pushing bureaucrats got anything better to do with their boring little lives!
Anyone should be allowed to sell booze, the same way as any other consumer item. Closing outlets will not reduce consumption.
The other thing that needs to change, is allowing the police to influence alcohol policy. It is none of their business and is not what we employ them to do. If cops want to lobby government, then they can do so as private individuals. The police have no more relevance than drainlayers on matters of public policy. They are spending our money to restrict our freedoms. They need to piss off and go catch some crims. If they don’t like dealing with drunks, get another job.
We all know its time for a new right leaning party…. Maybe a new one could start-up and bring Tamihere and Jones into the fold…. It would bring a great deal of the Waitekere Men and conservative non-grievance industry maori away from Labour.
So you are advocating colonial style slavery as a superior model of civilisation?
Might pay to brush up on your history Luc. The African slave trade was flourishing before any white man set foot on the continent. The white man was just another customer, to add to the Arabs and other Black Africans.
The idea that slavery may be “wrong” was popularised by the British, but NOT for human rights reasons. The idea that slavery is wrong has not caught on so well in Africa and slavery is still going on there today.
Preach your white guilt message to someone as ignorant as yourself, but don’t even think about preaching to me.
Say, do you work at being stupid or does it just come naturally?
Luc, how come the only tool in the lefty toolbox is the one that deals with any problem by attempting to alter the environment, in this case by reducing availability by reducing outlets and increasing price?
Haven’t lefties realised yet that this is the boil the ocean approach which will never work in a million years?
Doesn’t it ever occur to you guys that the key to all of these problems, be it alcohol abuse, poverty, unemployment, crime or whatever, is to work on the attitudes of those whom are affected? And if not, why not. Because it’s obvious this is the case. After all, most people don’t abuse alcohol, most people aren’t in poverty, most people aren’t unemployed and most people don’t commit crime.
So how come all those majorities are always completely ignored by the lefties, who concentrate their attentions exclusively on the people who do do those things, and then come up with a solution that, by changing the entire environment for everyone, those people will thereby be saved?
Why doesn’t it ever occur to you that maybe if you studied the attitudes of people who say, don’t abuse alcohol, then once you’d understand the distinction between their attitudes and the attitudes of those who do say, abuse alcohol, you’d then and only then, be in a position to design policies that changed the behaviour of the abusers by directly targeting their destructive attitudes, without affecting the vast, vast majority who are quite capable of managing the environmental conditions.
This way you wouldn’t be boiling the ocean, which never works because its impossible, there isn’t enough energy in the world and you’d be doing your “victims” a favour with effective intervention.
How come none of this elementary analysis ever seems to occur to any of you?
As regards alcohol outlets, sure, you remind me of the liquor barons telling us that advertising doesn’t increase consumption. So advertising is a public service, right? Yeah right.
And as for slavery, most cultures have practiced slavery. Plato approved of it even while acknowledging the dilemma of considering his slaves as fellow human beings. That doesn’t make it right.
Furthermore, the West commercialised slavery in a manner never seen before. Then, after keeping a whole ethnicity subjucated for our own enrichment, we literally abandoned them to the foibles of whomever was grasping enough – mainly aided and abetted and financed by…us.
We are doing a pretty good job of boiling the ocean, actually. Ask New Yorkers. And surely the original ‘intervention’ is putting people in that position to start with.
To imagine that people live in a world completely of their own making is delusional – see my comment above about the purposes of advertising, for example. And pokies are carefully designed to hook people – but, for those who do get hooked, it’s all their fault, right?
We are doing a pretty good job of boiling the ocean, actually. Ask New Yorkers.
Details please Luc.
To imagine that people live in a world completely of their own making is delusional
Luc perhaps you haven’t realised but life is created by our thoughts.
Watch your thoughts; They become words.
Watch your words; They become actions.
Watch your actions; They become habits.
Watch your habits, They become character.
Watch your character; It becomes your destiny.
The fundamental flaw in lefty thinking appears to be that you are so desperate not to assign blame or responsibility to any of your perceived “victims” that you completely ignore this fundamental truth of human existence.
“be in a position to design policies that changed the behaviour of the abusers by directly targeting their destructive attitudes,”
Design policies that change the behaviour..???
This is completely the wrong approach. We need less government not more.
I don’t want any government “designing policies to change behaviour” and least of all a government that might have a communist POS like Luc Hansen within its folds.
Excessive drinking is a personal problem that is solved by parents and families and individuals, not by governments.
Governments just need to look after births deaths and marriages, and register land ownership, and keep a few other such records, and insure the defence of the realm, and stay the hell out of the rest of it.
Luc, Zimbabwe was one of the bread baskets of Africa. It is now just another basket case, under black rule. Same thing is happening in South Africa. It was once a place where Africans could have opportunity and personal safety. They flocked to SA in their thousands. Now it is the murder, rape, robbery capital of the world and is on a rapid decline.
Colonists established modern cities, infrastructure and governance. They moved Africa from the stone age to the modern age overnight. Africa is a rich continent with vast natural resources. They have been given all they need to succeed.
The victims, of your type of thinking, are the black Africans. They did far better under white minority rule. It may not fit with the sort of society you and I prefer, but it works there. I doubt you actually know about the level of brutality that occurs on the continent daily, in black ruled Africa. Its beyond belief.
@Redbaiter, guess what? I completely agree that the smaller government is, the better it is for all of us. But, it’s smaller government consistent with…(make a list to suit your preferences, but just the fact that you have a list doesn’t make alternative lists less valid).
@ RightNow, recognising wrong is not overcompensating. Neither is is misplaced guilt. It’s stupid to feel guilty about the actions of one’s forbears, but that doesn’t mean perpetuating the wrong, which is what most of you guys, like John Ansell, want.
The trouble with you Luc, is you put your ideology ahead of people.
You are unconcerned with outcomes, as long as the intention/idea is good. This is a typical trait of hard core lefties. It is how people like Mao justified tens of millions dying. It is the mentality behind every great wrong and human rights abuse.
What you are saying is that, for the colonised, the benefits of colonisation outweighs the costs, which more often than not included genocide. The answer to that is to look at how societies that were not colonised developed during the same timeframe – and to imagine that indigenous peoples we brutally exploited over centuries would not be better off than they are now is simply racism. And to imagine that we would have developed at the same rate without that exploitation is also delusional.
I read something yesterday, I’m trying to remember where, but it was along the lines of how abused people are most likely to turn into abusers themselves. This is the degree of harm we, we civilised folk, inflicted.
Yes, I have much sympathy for that point. However, like I said above, that doesn’t mean perpetuating injustice. Sadly, what is taken for well intentioned intervention aka IMF, World Bank, Paris Club is actually designed to entrench the interests of the West.
As to exactly what we should be doing, ask the people we did over.
Luc, do you know about the millions killed by black Africans in recent years? Are you aware the Tribal affiliations result in far more bloodshed than racial ones, in Africa ?
Please point me to some “societies that were not colonised” and are doing well in Africa?
Oh and here is another short history lesson……. ALL major races/cultures have been colonised, invaded, and taken over, often repeatedly. No one more so than the indigenous Britons. In the long run it is beneficial and has been the biggest driving force in spreading civilisation and lifting the standard of living around the world.
Why are you only concerned about the colonising of darker skinned people? Whats “behind” that ?
[DPF: yes there was lots of colonisation in the past. But we live in different times today. Do you believe people of a certain skin colour shouldn't get to vote?]
Kea: “The victims, of your type of thinking, are the black Africans. They did far better under white minority rule. It may not fit with the sort of society you and I prefer, but it works there.”
You appear to be saying that Africans, given the choice, would vote for white minority rule or should have white minority rule imposed on them ‘for their own good’. I’ve said it before, Kea, and I don’t mind repeating it here; You are out of your freakin mind!
As to exactly what we should be doing, ask the people we did over.
I suggest you ask the Chinese. Western liberals go to Africa and give aid. The Chinese do business deals. They are not tainted by Western ideology and are providing more jobs and progress there than all the do gooders from the West. And yes, I know its not all rosy and good. I am not a defender of the PRC, but give credit where it is due.
Yes Yoza that is what I “appear to be saying” because that is what I said.
Results matter to real people.
You are a racist. You assume your Eurocentric view of the world is the gold standard by which the world should be judged. You want to help the Africans, to become more like white people. . You are repulsed by the reality of Africa. Your type has caused the needless deaths and suffering of millions on that continent.
Get of your high horse, your full of shit and have blood on your hands.
“All major races/cultures have been colonised, invaded, and taken over, often repeatedly.”
Except for Japan (excluding the limited occupation it endured following WWII). Considering Japan was the only ‘new world’ country capable of resisting European occupation, and, how advanced Japan is compared to all the other areas of the globe that ‘benefited’ from European colonisation/occupation; it does not say a lot for your point that the imperial ambitions of the European were a benevolent influence on their victims.
Again, there is a lot to agree with in that comment. But again, I ask you to consider that the existence of prior realities does not provide justification for continuation of said injustices.
The Western project of colonisation and slavery and genocide was on a scale never seen before in the period of time, geographical extent and the sheer intensiveness of exploitation.
And while it’s nice to be (almost) on the same page as DPF for a change, I disagree entirely that colonisation is a thing of the past. Ask Maori if that’s true. Ask Brazilians. Ask Central Americans. Ask Puerto Ricans. Oh, let’s not forget those we almost completely wiped out, like Native Americans and Australian Aboriginals.
No Yoza. Japan was actually a rather backward place until it came into contact with other cultures. Originally they came from China anyway, as did Maoris.
Why did you particularly mention “European colonisation” ?
In your racist Eurocentric mind you forgot about the Arabs, Mongols, Indians and a whole raft of others ? If you knew any real history, you would know the Europeans were a bunch of illiterate drunken barbarians when those cultures were developing science and higher thought, as well as “colonising” on an epic scale. The “white man” was a late starter.
Most of the view here, about human rights, are Western Liberal Views. They are not the views held by most of the world. In fact, they have only recently been popularised in our own societies.
Chinese, Indians, Africans etc do not view those issues in the same way.
Some of you are trying to put on a big show of how non-racist you are. You have failed miserably, because you can not see outside of your own white European liberal world. You might find my views confronting, but they are demonstrably closer to the views held by the Africans themselves. They will tell you they want equality…….. but ………. for THEMSELVES, not for other tribal groups or their enemies. Ignorant inward looking white do gooders don’t get that simple fact, though it is demonstrated all over Africa.
Now I must warn you not to be a wanker and tell me its diamonds, gold or anything else the Africans were not using. Nor should you play the slavery card. A few slaves going to whitey (rather than the domestic market or Arabs) is not the enriching.
They got entire modern cities, infrastructure, education, a functional government and had it all handed to them on a plate. How are those places doing now?
Still no mention of the elephant in the room , I see……………… The Arabs were colonising the place long long before Europeans. And yes smart arse, that included slavery. Yet none of you have even mentioned it. And they are still there TODAY. They have not handed back their “colonies”
I asked this question a while ago here at Kiwiblog to our older commentators who were born in the 1930s, 1940s or 1950s like Pete George, Luc Hansen, et al about a Tongan song (Happy happy tonga) that I first heard about it 3 years ago. I thought that the original song or tune was one from the soundtrack of a classical James Bond movie (dr. no – i think), but someone here pointed out to me that the tune is similar but they’re different songs.
Last night I went to a Tongan club in South Auckland and the band in that club was playing that song (not the original band that recorded the song in the link above) and I talked to a member of the band and asked him about the song. He told me that the song was originally recorded in the early 1950s by Louis Armstrong named:
He said that there are a few versions of the song in different languages that have been recorded over the years and the happy happy tonga is the tongan version of the skokiaan written by his brother for the group in that link above.
Reid – “The fundamental flaw in lefty thinking appears to be that you are so desperate not to assign blame or responsibility to any of your perceived “victims” that you completely ignore this fundamental truth of human existence.”
– But the lefties always do immediately assign blame. It is always the old white guys fault or americas fault. The resolution to the perceived problem is also always the same – tax whatever it is back to the stone age.
[DPF: I agree North Korea is horrific, and it is a shame what their citizens have to endure.
But what has that got to do with your apparent belief that black people should not have the vote?
Are you saying because some people who should get to vote, do not, this means it is okay to deny the vote to other groups of people?]
It has nothing to do with them being “black” and everything to do with the realities of their situation.
I believe in democracy, very strongly in fact. I want to see all Africans prosperous, safe and free from tyranny. I want them to have a vote.
But what “I want” is totally irrelevant.
Zimbabwe was once one of the success stories of Africa. It was a bread basket of the continent with a strong economy, administered largely by Europeans. Cheered on by white liberals, the white administration handed power over to the blacks. The people are now under a terrible brutal regime. The country is broke. People are starving. They are not safe.
Now ask yourself…… if it were your kids going hungry, if you and your family were at constant risk of robbery, violence, rape. If you had no home and no future…… would your greatest concern be a chance to vote?
Zimbabwe is a real life example of how Western ideology has destroyed the lives of millions of blacks. They don’t give a shit about your politics. They want food and safety. They want their kids to live. But that was taken away from them, so a bunch of white people on the other side of the world could feel good about themselves and impress their mates at dinner parties.
Kea, Islam spread wider via trading than via warfare, but, again, you raise red herrings and I have addressed those already.
However, you do get down to tintacks and admit that you think colonisation was beneficial to the colonised, including slavery as practiced by the West. That’s a valid point of view, subscribed to by no less than Niall Ferguson, who wrote a book devoted to that very concept. I beg to disagree simply because the vast majority of the people themselves would disagree. Some, sadly, do subscribe to the racist mantra of the white man.
As regards Africa enriching the West, yes, exploitation of the natural resources of Africa, including human resource,s was hugely beneficial to the West and remains so to this day. To deny that is an indication of profound ignorance, I’m sorry to say. For example, the great tobacco and cotton plantations of the US were made possible by, firstly, the genocide of the First Peoples and, secondly, African slaves kidnapped and forced into labour under absolutely brutal conditions. For those slaves, life was indeed nasty, brutish and short, thanks to the white man.
What’s worse is that we continue to suck money out of Africa even under the guise of doing good. And I’m talking here about the interest on loans supposedly advanced as development aid (to assist those people to wrest themselves out of the poverty we inflicted on them, and that interest is many times the original amounts of the loans.
Take Haiti as an example. The first country to free themselves from the double yoke of colonisation and slavery and forced to pay reparations to France as the price of revolt. Then, just a few years ago, as Aristide was making progress in his battle for the return of those billions (in NPV) he was overthrown by the US and France, and Haiti remains victimised by the West, recent debt forgiveness notwithstanding.
Now, to make matters worse, we are inflicting climate change on the very lands we exploited for all those years, and the funds raised to help them cope is going to be dispensed as loans. Can you believe that?
However, you do get down to tintacks and admit that you think colonisation was beneficial to the colonised, including slavery as practiced by the West.
Why do you only refer to the “West” and ignore all the rest of history? Why do you consider “white” people as uniquely evil ?
You are cherry picking, by selecting one small part of history. The bit about Islam being peaceful traders is bullshit. They did as much, if not more, than the Europeans. You are untroubled by that fact, because you don’t see Arabs as white enough.
Once again you use contemporary Western values to revise history. The ideas that things like slavery and exploitation are wrong, are themselves modern European values. They are NOT values of the Africans. They had more time than anyone to develop democratic liberal societies and clearly did not.
Please educate me about the pre European mineral and oil industry in Africa ?
Your full of it Luc. I can not be bothered with racist pretenders who are simply trying to claim the moral high ground, while pushing a recently formed Eurocentric view of the world.
Kea: Very good Sir/madam..reminds me also of the Emperor of Japan’s statement to his people announcing that they were surrendering because things “haven’t necessarily gone as well as expected”..or something like that…
Yep, Zimbabwe and North Korea…shining examples at opposite ends of the earth of the wonderful success of one party states and authoritarian dictatorship as a system of government…
And I add my voice to those who remind us that today is Remembrance Day….Something I have never forgotten from Uni study of WW I…the Brits lost 60,000 men on the FIRST DAY at the Somme…the entire population of some of our larger provincial cities entirely gone…in one day….
I can’t work out whether Kea is bat-shit crazy or as thick as pig shit.
For african people, conquest and colonisation was a bad experience, while the colonisers generally thought that it was a good thing for both themselves and the natives that they could bring to a state of ‘civilisation’.
Funnily enough, throughout history, those doing the conquering have generally enriched themselves and at the same time felt that they were doing the conquered a favour. Those being conquered or colonised have not enjoyed it quite so much.
These are generalisations. There may be situations where invasion, conquest and colonisation has been entirely to the satisfaction of the victims; but I cannot think of any examples off the top of my head.
Funnily enough, throughout history, those doing the conquering have generally enriched themselves and at the same time felt that they were doing the conquered a favour.
Yes. Just as competing tribes in Africa enrich themselves from the others demise.
“These are generalisations. There may be situations where invasion, conquest and colonisation has been entirely to the satisfaction of the victims; but I cannot think of any examples off the top of my head.”
You have to be kidding ! lol what a clown. You would be living in a hut dressed in decomposing animals skins if it were not for ” invasion, conquest and colonisation “. Nothing has done as much to spread technology, literacy, agriculture, food, knowledge and so on. The only problem with Africa is that it was not colonised enough. They stopped too soon. That is why the benefits have never taken hold. Do you get your revisionist history from the Black Supremist webs sites ?
As an example closer to home, Maori are way better off than in pre European times. They live about 2 to 3 times longer than they used to. Infant mortality is a fraction of what it was. They do not live in constant fear of attack. Even the poorest is way better off than in pre European times.
Don’t bother putting your white guilt trip onto me. You are racist and insincere. The only principle you have is that “white” people are to blame. If you thought blacks were your equal, then you would not argue special circumstances for them. You are a patronising pretender.
You missed the Germans, Vikings and other riff raff from all over Europe. They destroyed the language, spiritual beliefs and culture of the indigenous Britons, repeatedly. They stripped natural resources and deforested the whole country.
They were left with a little barren island with bad weather and few resources.
So what did they do…………… well history records they rose up and built an empire that stretched around the world. They remain a world power to this day.
“Once again you use contemporary Western values to revise history. The ideas that things like slavery and exploitation are wrong, are themselves modern European values. They are NOT values of the Africans. They had more time than anyone to develop democratic liberal societies and clearly did not.
Please educate me about the pre European mineral and oil industry in Africa ?
Your full of it Luc. I can not be bothered with racist pretenders who are simply trying to claim the moral high ground, while pushing a recently formed Eurocentric view of the world.”
But isn’t that EXACTLY how you judge the ancient Middle East, and their cultural practices – that is why you hate the Bible so much.
Let the average contemporary Muslim or African read the OT, and they would’t bat an eyelid at the accounts of ancient ME practices re: warfare, slavery & justice. To them it might seem natural, normal and just.
But Kea with his lily-white, recently-formed Euro-centric view of the world has decided it’s wrong and evil.
‘And who were the ‘first to invade’ that should be blamed in some way?
Kea would possibly only feels that an invasion and conquest was bad if he could feel empathy for those who died as a result. I suspect that empathy might be rather limited for anyone not quite like him.
I have been speaking out against contemporary liberal Western values being arrogantly assumed as the gold standard by which to judge other cultures. I consider those who do as narrow minded and ignorant.
For sure I have those values myself, but I am humble enough to know they are not held by the majority of the world. The vast majority.
You are getting desperate and trying to put words in my mouth. In fact that is all any of you fakes have managed to do in support of your point. Even David has chimed in on the act, by suggesting I think black should not be allowed to vote!
It shows that your do not hold your position based on a sincere and reasoned belief. It shows you only claim to believe what your saying, because you have been taught it is the correct way to think.
Its politically correct doctrine. However, there was a time when it was “PC” to treat black folk in a very different manner. Guys like you were the ones running the slave trade and committing the worst acts, because it was socially acceptable.
It may be fine and good looking to the past to find Nobel savages.
The beast does not exist.
Can you imagine a situation when Maori culture was used to govern this country.
Not the travesty of today the real culture of the time Maori were not influenced by England.
Their society used the threat of violence to control social interaction Utu could be claimed and justice served only if you were in a position of strength to start with. You can not take only parts of a system and expect that system to function. Maori culture is not disposed to create what we recognized as a nation only to promulgate a tribal world. Our history in the Anglosphere comes from the English. The history of the English has involved invasion, occupation and assimilation on a repeated basis since man developed the use of metal. When you add the selection process of immigration and the Challengers of the new world. Anglosphere Canada Australia and New Zealand society and its culture so developed to give humanity possible the best out come. We share this honer with the Scandinavian country’s. As far as I can see we are outstanding with our society and do not need to look towards any were else for leadership when it comes to social structure. This includes bastardized versions of a theoretical Maori society.
Griff, They do not really believe that crap they are saying.
If they did they would go live here:
Central African Republic
GDP Per Capita: $768 (As of 2011)
Despite its significant mineral resources; uranium reserves in Bakouma, crude oil, gold, diamonds, lumber, hydropower and its arable land, it remains one of the poorest countries in the world. Diamonds constitute the most important export of the Central Africans Republic, accounting for 40–55% of export revenues. The 2010 UNDP Human Development Report ranks CAR near the bottom of its Human Development Index (159th out of 162 countries) and unlikely to meet its MDG goals. The proportion of Central Africans living on $1 a day has decreased slightly to 62% but it needs to be half of that in order to reach the 2015 goal.
Expanding on ‘Griff’s’ comment a lot of the problems in Africa, & to a certain extent the ME, can be sheeted home to the way their societies are organised along tribal lines. The historic invasions of Britain & the migration to the cities as a result of the Industrial Revolution largely destroyed their traditional tribal society.
Consequently people of British & USA descent don’t think along these lines & look to nationalistic solutions to tribal problems.
We all used to live in tribal societies. That is why I have to laugh at the grovelling reverence shown to Maori tribalism. Europeans have been there, done that. It is not a dig at Maori, but it is a fact.
“Do you, Cameron Slater, agree that both John Banks and Don Brash should have both been charged as former fellow Directors of Huljich Wealth Management (NZ) Ltd, for signing Huljich Kiwisaver Scheme registered prospectuses dated 22 August 2008 and 18 September 2009 which contained untrue statments – a STRICT LIABILITY offence under s.58(3) of the Securities Act?
PS: If anyone has contact details for Graham McCready – I’m rather keen to have a chat about his private prosecution of John Banks over allegations that he filed a false electoral return for his 2012 Auckland mayoral campaign.
Ethnic tribal people are the only ones in western society that are allowed to keep traditional customs. So ‘differance’ I would have thought, must then be a good thing!
Yet, everyone else in Western society has to denounce traditions for the ‘common good’ no matter what the moral benefit that they have done for mankind down through the generations.
Yet the people pushing this agenda are nothing but tribal themselves, cue feminists, gays et al: They don’t leave behind any of their practices no matter how unbeneficial they are to themselves and/or others[no man is an island - 'we don't hurt anyone else' - is crap].
‘emotional underdevelopment’ is the character trait of these groups, people who cannot accept their own differances, and the need then exists for these differances to be imposed on ‘others’ as not being differant, but equal.
kea:Can someone explain to me why a man should resign from his position of the basis of who he is fucking?
Because he has a sensitive position, with access to classified national security information, that potentially makes him vulnerable to espionage or blackmail. In any case it looks like we may not have the whole story yet. It appears that Broadwell, with whom he was having the affair, may have been harassing or threatening another woman – Petraeus’ wife perhaps. Its possible that he didn’t resign because of the affair per se but because of something else related to the affair.
Harriet you are referring to the conservative Christians
No one on the liberal side on here really wants to remove your right to your own beliefs.
It’s when the congregation tries to impose their morality and silly superstitious world view on the rest of us that you get resistance.Many Christians comment on here in a sane and measured way. They are not the ones trying to impose there beliefs on the rest of us. “Because God said” is not a valid tool to use in intelligent debate. Especially when a large portion of your audience are non believers.
“…..Why Conservatives focus on sex so much is a puzzle to me. If I liked “the cock” it would not change my views on the core issues of how our society should be managed by government.
The right continually lose potential supporters by sticking their grubby noses into peoples bedrooms, with a promise to bring the entire government (into the bedroom) if elected.
Being a mincing faggot does not make you “left”. Most of the poofs I know are self employed business people. They are potential allies, but do want their basic freedoms protected from zealots. The whole thing is such a non issue and important issues are side lined while there is public debate about who we are allowed to fuck….”
Making money is a very private matter too – feeding, clothing and housing oneself and a family is certainly above that of ‘gay sex’. Yet governments stick their hands into our backside pockets in belief of the social ‘good’.
Chiz 4:45 has a very reasonable explanation. As I understand, people in sensitive roles can lose their security clearance if they have an affair – that would impact on their ability to perform those roles.
Another explanation is that he’s being thrown under the bus. Taking one for the team, so he won’t have to testify in the upcoming Benghazi hearing.
Ok Rufus I will try and outline my personal position.
I want to see every one living in a democratic society. I regard freedom of speech, and open debate, as a fundamental underpinning of a decent society. There are not exceptions to this freedom, in my book. People should not be shut down because someone takes offence to what is being said or for any other reason. This freedom helps inform the democratic process. That’s how I like things.
However, I realise that other cultures have different ways to my own. I respect those differences, even if I don’t agree with them. Many of those cultures are very old and have a huge history. They have survived all this time, without my liberal Western views, and will continue to do so. This applies to Africa. It may be that a dictatorship works better there. The plight of the African continent breaks my heart, I just want to see something that works for those people, not an ideology imposed from another culture enjoying different circumstances.
Regarding religion. I am an atheist. In day to day life I respect peoples religious beliefs and seldom debate the topic. I have Muslim & Christian friends, along with irritating new ager/spiritual types. All I ask is that the beliefs of one group are not imposed on another. And yes, that includes imposing atheism on believers. It can be a balancing act, but that is the goal.
Harriet, the government is not forcing you to “like the cock” , but they are forcing you to pay tax. Forget about the homos and find something important to fuss about. Homos are not a new invention made up by the liberal left, they have been with us forever. Get over it. The left have just used them as pawns in their lust for power. If the right keep their noses out of peoples bedrooms, they will find much more support. Being gay does not make you left. Get it through your head mate
Your belief says they are “fucken immature”. I just Think of them as people. You seek to define marriage as between a male and a female. I don’t care who gets married including three men and a goat if that floats their boat. With the proviso that this marriage does not redefine a goat from meat,milk,wool and a type of vermin.
Kea – that was an uncharacteristically reasonable post.
Still haven’t answered my question – unless you admit your values are no more than your own subjective preferences, and therefore worthless, at the end of the day. Which I think you are saying in post above, but won’t take to its conclusion.
Your roar and bluster against OT Middle Eastern cultures is meaningless and illogical.
What would it take for the Bible bashers to wake up, smell the coffee & enjoy the one life they are guaranteed rather than worry about the next one. Get out, drop some acid, smoke a joint, root a sheep or get sodomised……whatever grills your cheese.
“….All I ask is that the beliefs of one group are not imposed on another…’
I agree with that Kea.
Rufus and the gays will always denounce facts, observations, results etc as ‘beliefs’ as they hate loseing an ‘arguement’.
The better part of Marriage is the development of children into adults.Gays don’t procreate. So gay relationships, defined by well developed adults, ARE NOT the same as hetrosexual marriage – developed adults are the very type who SHOULD be getting married.
They then impose their beliefs, which are lessor beliefs based on valid arguement, upon us by using the words ‘diverse’ ‘fair’ ‘modern’ etc – the cloak of bullshit.
Stick with your facts and observations of history Kea as it has made life better for all.
Give an example of a better system to structure a society than a parliamentary democracy with the freedom of its citizens to operate within a well structured set of laws.With the inclusion of such innovations as one man one vote, equality, the separation of church and state, innocence in proven guilty and independent judiciary. There is no system on a national scale that gives the equitable outcome and freedom to live your life better than ours does
Kea. OT = Old Testament, you know, the first half of that book you hate so much, and that you judge as “evil”. I suggest you haven’t ever read it cover to cover, as an adult. You simply find bits and pieces against it from your favourite online “atheist-r-us” echo chamber.
Since your judgement is simply your personal, subjective preference, you cannot claim anything as being “evil”. That would be an absolute, objective statement. You simply don’t like something.
Acid nasska how evil
Spending eight hours totally amused with doing the things you do when you are doing nothing
I find that pursuit of inter species sex faintly worrying. I know from experience that the pursuit of the opposite sex causes untold grief inter species dalliance would I imagine add to that considerably.
Alas kea I to suffer from that malady of advancing age speed bumps up the arse
Hence as I have not previously partaken in anal penetration I am now in the unfortunate position that it is no longer a viable option and its supposed delights will never be mine to experience. If you so experemint feel free to advise us of the result.
Jihad, the Muslim holy war against Christians and others, has raged for 1300 years with bloody conquests in Europe dating from campaigns to convert the infidels in the 7th century to today’s random acts of terrorism in the name of Allah.
Yet this huge unrecorded ‘hole’ in European history has been censored and stifled by political and literary authorities who have feared reprisals from angry Muslims trying to hide a legacy of brutality vastly more bloody and six times longer in duration than the atrocities of the crusades.
This is the engrossing factual account of the immense and little-known Islamic military invasions of Europe, and the major players who led them, beginning around 650CE. The Islamic Arabs (and later the Moors) occupied a number of the Mediterranean Islands, and invaded Spain and Portugal in 711CE, and ruled over much of the Iberian peninsula for the next 800 years.
France was attacked and invaded, as was Italy, and the European coasts all the way to Ireland and Iceland. The Muslims swept over the Balkans, besieged Vienna, and were intermittent masters of Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, and Hungary into the 19th century, destroying the Byzantines, taking Constantinople (turning it into Istanbul). Ambitious and unrelenting, the Muslims also sought to conquer Austria, and Russia.
In a bright and brisk narrative, Paul Fregosi’s unique and provocative work is the first, and only, general history of the Jihad, the most neglected and disregarded phenomenon in European history.
Well worth the read for your education, and the Kindle version is only US$10.39
Outside of Kiwiblog & the religious fruitloops it attracts I can’t think of the last time my atheism came up for discussion by anyone including myself.
It’s you moonbats trying to control others’ behaviour that brings up the subject of belief or non belief every time. Now if you’d take your scriptures & find a nice quiet cupboard to study them in we’ll get on with the important things like sex, drugs & rock ‘n roll.
Oh God, I’ve been trying to catch up on the thread.
I’m now slightly nauseous and unsure whether to go for colonisation penitence (which sounds like sticking something up my arse to crecolonise my bowel); sodomy of another variety; chocolate, cheese, grilled cheese, booze, drugs or fucking a member of another species such as my husband.
(He’s male, I’m female, may as well be two different species).
Griff are you still putting up those links that tell us nothing more than a public servant will always back the view of another public servant?
“….People need religion. It’s a vehicle for a moral tradition. A crucial role. Nothing can take its place….” – Irving Kristol
He explained it better elsewhere but I can’t find it, so here is what he said from memory –
“….Science and religion are two entirely differant matters. In science you start with a hypthesis and search for evidence to support that hypthesis.
On the other hand, Religon is a belief, and you believe that you will be better off with it, as it helps support you through life’s certainties and uncertainties.It is based on morals.
And that is why we teach our children to pray instead of searching for facts to support God’s existance….”
“….Variety is the spice of life Monique.Harriet is just consoling him(her)self with the thought that the loveless Saturday nights between him/her & the grave are now one fewer….’
Which reminds me of last nights joke –
Once upon a time there was a schoolboy who went by the name of Sindafella, and he was soon going to attend his first formal school ball. He lived with his mum and he was gay.
On the day of the school ball he approached his mum and said “Mum, I don’t have anything to wear.” His mum being the mum she was, threw some star dust in the air and POOF – Sindafella was spontanously dressed in a pair of electric blue rhinestone spangled underpants and a pair of red cordial coloured chapps. In his mouth was a flourescent green dummy.
Stuck in his arse was an orange coloured butt plug. As he was about to wave his mother good-bye she said “Enjoy your school ball Sindafella but remember, if you attempt to take out that butt plug or if you don’t return home by midnight, then it will turn into a 3kg pumpkin.” Sindafella acknowledged the advice, waved his mother good-bye, and minced off to the ball.
Midnight came and went, the hands of the clock went through 2am, then 4am, and at 6am in marched Sindafella. His mother being concerned said “Sindafella I am beside myself, are you O.K?” He replied “Yes mum I couldn’t be happier, I have meet a lovely male friend.”
Anyway Nasska, that is the original story of Cinderella and how nursery rhymes came to include peter peter pumpkin eater.
Crap! Mankind needs religion in the same way we need a third testicle each. In your own words it is a belief, nothing more. It is personal to you & may act as a little ray of sunshine that brings a smidgeon of joy to your otherwise dismal, unhappy & wretched life.
Happily, other than you forcing it down the throats of your unfortunate loin fruit it is not transferable & rarely contagious.
Moving from the inane and pointless of the day.
Here’s and idea for NZ Inc. which IMHO is right on the mark.
Every story has a name – except the one which describes our agriculture.
This, I argue, is one of the reasons we struggle to tell people around the world and in our cities about what exactly is and has been the basis of our farming’s comparative advantage for the past 130 years.
No one has an argument about the idea of German engineering excellence, or Italian design flair or a Japanese minimalist Zen aesthetic.
However, we, NZ Inc, haven’t even managed such a generic name
“….If you have standards, moral standards, you have to want to make them prevail, and at the very least you have to argue in their favor. Now, show me where libertarians have argued in some comprehensive way for a set of moral standards. … I don’t think morality can be decided on the private level. I think you need public guidance and public support for a moral consensus. The average person has to know instinctively, without thinking too much about it, how he should raise his children….: – Irving Kristol.
Don’t look at me to agree that expanding middle-class welfare and sending too many people to university were good ideas. But compared to religion, they are relatively rational approaches to improving our lot…
“Hey, don’t knock the public servants, Monique – they are the backbone of this great little country.”
Right Mike. We should just all join the public service. Unemployment solved.
And you don’t really pay any TAX, it is just numbers going in circles. Fuck, why didn’t I think of this? I could be the President of NZ
Did you know there’s an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire & smoke and burning & torture & anguish, where he will send you to live & suffer and burn & choke & scream & cry forever & ever ’til the end of time!
I know Steve but I’m a kindly soul & I like to bring them down to earth gently. Having a reasoned, intelligent debate about religion with a religious person is a lot like having a reasoned, intelligent debate with a child about unicorns.
I’d love to help Steve but I doubt that it is even within the powers of the One that the Godbotherers pester. Fortunately SWMBO will catch him on the computer sooner or later & administer severe punishment but until then the ravings will continue.
A man sees a boy with a box of kittens The man goes over and says “Oh what cute kittens!” The boy replies “Yes they are Christian kittens”. About a week later the man sees the boy again with the same batch of kittens. Once again he walks over and says “my, those are just adorable!” The boy replies “Yes, they are atheist kittens” The man asks “wait, weren’t they christian before?” The boy looks at the man and says “Yeah but they have their eyes open now”
The ambassador of a small African nation chanced to visit Russia, and was entertained by his opposite number, the Russian ambassador. For three days, the African ambassador was wined, dined, and generally treated to the best hospitality that Russia had to offer. On the final day of his visit, the Russian ambassador said, “As your stay is coming to an end, it is time for you to play our traditional game, Russian roulette. One of the six chambers of this gun is loaded – you spin the cylinder, point the gun at your head, and pull the trigger.” This fazed the African slightly, but he was a proud man of a warrior people, and to show fear would be unthinkable. Both men took their guns, spun, and pulled the triggers.
Both chambers were empty, and both ambassadors breathed a sigh of relief. The African ambassador was much impressed with the courageous game, and thought hard about the subject before the Russian Ambassador was due to visit his country the next year.
When the visit came, the African ambassador treated the Russian with all hospitality, until the final day of his stay. Leading him to a private room in the palace, the African ambassador spoke “Now it is time for you to sample our game, African roulette”.
So saying, he led the Russian into the room, the only occupants of which were six beautiful, naked women. The African ambassador said, “These women are the most beautiful members of one of our tribes. Any one of them will give you oral sex – take your pick”. The Russian was not entirely averse to this idea, but he couldn’t see the connection with Russian Roulette. He said, “Well, ok, great, but where’s the roulette part? Where’s the danger?” With a big grin on his face, the African ambassador answered “One of them is a cannibal.”
Kow tow Do you you get your science from the denial net work who lie? I will repost this for you
Griff (3,394) Says:
November 10th, 2012 at 8:27 pm
You do not see that the hundreds of geeks laboring away at scientific endeavor They are not political they are not the ones pushing the lefts take on the remaedy The true scientist have answered all the question posed by the denial network guys like Kristy and Watts just can not make a dent in the actual science instead you get lies
Classic propaganda; They are all horrible bourgeois Left-wing academics the scientist
“the high-flown theories of bourgeois Left-wing academics will not override the interests of ordinary people who need fuel for heat, light and transport”
Met Office in the Media: 14 October 2012
“An article by David Rose appears today in the Mail on Sunday under the title: ‘Global warming stopped 16 years ago, reveals Met Office report quietly released… and here is the chart to prove it’”
“It is the second article Mr Rose has written which contains some misleading information, after he wrote an article earlier this year on the same theme – you see our response to that one here.” http://metofficenews.wordpress.com/2012/01/29/met-office-in-the-media-29-january-2012/
To address some of the points in the article published today:
Firstly, the Met Office has not issued a report on this issue. We can only assume the article is referring to the completion of work to update the HadCRUT4 global temperature dataset compiled by ourselves and the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit.”
We announced that this work was going on in March and it was finished this week. You can see the HadCRUT4 website here.
Secondly, Mr Rose says the Met Office made no comment about its decadal climate predictions. This is because he did not ask us to make a comment about them.”
So we then find that the dick was actually telling bullshit in his science stories there was no report and temperature are rising
That may be a small lie however we have caught him do it twice
Would you trust
1 This dick to give you honest science?
2 Any website that published a lie like this however small to give you unbiased science?
If you do you get a d- in this lesson for Critical thinking and the net .101
“It’s sad and even dangerous that we live in an era where you have to vet news outlets and determine if they report science from a predisposed political bias. The Daily Mail piece is not peer reviewed science. It’s one guy trying to create smoke where there’s no fire.”