General Debate 30 November 2012

November 30th, 2012 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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79 Responses to “General Debate 30 November 2012”

  1. iMP (2,416 comments) says:

    Bob Parker’s earthquakes. Really interesting.

    http://conzervative.wordpress.com/2012/11/30/bob-parkers-earthquakes/

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  2. Pete George (23,676 comments) says:

    Chris Trotter has a warning for the blogging comrades in their fight against the evil MSM.

    The tone of these attacks leaves little doubt that not only do these political journalists consider bloggers to be unwelcome and illegitimate contributors to the nation’s political discourse, but that nothing would make them happier than to see them tightly regulated and controlled. It’s an attitude that should send a shiver down every New Zealander’s spine.

    Brrrr. I thought it was a southerly change.

    They have, however, been appearing in both the postings and commentary threads of the political blogs. Is this the real explanation for the sudden spate of attacks on the anonymity of these citizen-journalists? Has a focus group warned the MSM that the stories it declines to tell – and which are now turning up in blogs – are being believed?

    Citizen journos of the world unite! A Chris Trotter shocker.

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  3. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Congratulations to the Black Caps – Two Test wins overseas in a year.

    Southee and Williamson are fine young cricketers.

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  4. Reid (16,615 comments) says:

    Excellent dissection of Goldman Sachs’ role in the GFC:

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-people-vs-goldman-sachs-20110511

    Obviously this is not a dig at Key, it’s directed at those naive people who still hallucinate that Wall Street normally really does play a straight bat and they’ve done nothing wrong, at all.

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  5. Keeping Stock (10,398 comments) says:

    I have no difficulty agreeing with you on that one Hamnida. What’s even better is that the wins against Australia in Hobart and last night in Colombo followed hidings, and were totally unexpected.

    Big ups to Ross Taylor for his leadership, and for his example with the bat. Kane Williamson is already a class player, and a brilliant fieldsman to boot. And Trent Boult is emerging as a left-arm quick of rare promise who is able to get good batsmen out. With him, Tim Southee and Doug Bracewell all being in their young 20’s, there are finally some positive signs about our bowling. And I hope that they persist with Todd Astle, with whose father I have jousted over the years. He is a very promising cricketer, and leg spinners should be encouraged!

    I’ve been supporting the New Zealand cricket team for near enough to 50 years. I was born just a few months after the infamous 26 at Eden Park. So I have seen plenty of ups and even more downs. An overseas test match victory against a quality opposition is a rare beast indeed, and something to sustain REAL fans through the next inevitable trough.

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  6. Elaycee (4,403 comments) says:

    It’s going to be an interesting next 24 hours in the world of Formula 1…

    Last week in Brazil, Jenson Button (McLaren) won the final race of the season from Fernando Alonso (Ferrari) and Filipe Massa (Ferrari). But Sebastian Vettel (RBR) finished with enough points to claim the overall drivers title.

    But on-board video footage has now emerged where it appears that Vettel passed a car during the race under yellow flag conditions (when no passing is allowed due because of a local incident). And Alonso is apparently pressing his Ferrari team to appeal the result. Because if it is proven that Vettel passed someone under yellows, then Vettel may be penalised 20 seconds and that would leave him finishing in eighth – and the title would be handed to Alonso.

    Any appeal has to be lodged no later than 30th Nov and as I say, it will be an interesting 24 next hours.

    http://www.pitpass.com/48104-Ferrari-considering-Vettel-protest

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  7. flipper (4,188 comments) says:

    Keeping…It was indeed a dark day at Eden. Now, if only those quicks can be held together we might make some further progress.

    ….
    To more interesting matters that count….

    The Whale has an interesting post on the proposed Labour revenue tax (as outlined by a Phud of divinity who knows nothing of accounting nor of economics), one D. Clark from a Dunedin Labour tenured seat. The whole proposition is bullshit. But Clark would not know the difference between that and clay. Moreover, it follows a similar line adopted by the children (recently and again yesterday) at TV3.

    Worse, it could be a Labour Party precursor to the policy proposed by progressive democrats (small “D” please), now advocating a wealth tax in the the US. Fortunately for those lucky enough to be described as wealthy there is the tiny matter of the US consitution since a wealth tax would constitute seizure of property ( all taxes on income poresumably having been paid.

    Lord save us from your disciples. They know not what they do……. :)

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  8. Pete George (23,676 comments) says:

    Imperator Fish is pleading “We Need A Hero”.

    The success of the right can be put down in part to the success of some of the right’s leading bloggers. Those bloggers have become columnists and editors, and are regularly called upon by radio stations to provide punditry.

    The left have probably just as many bloggers and commentators as the right, but many of them are too fixated on the enemy within to provide any meaningful opposition to the right. In contrast, self-examination does not appear to be a high priority for the leading commentators of the right.

    If the left is to regain lost ground it must change the way the system views it. Rather than being perceived as a disorganised factional rabble, the left must present a united front and focus its energies on the real enemy.

    What we need above all else is a hero blogger.

    He need look no further – The hero of the left, the Lynn Ranger.

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  9. Morgy (172 comments) says:

    Question: Why is she here?
    http://inthehouse.co.nz/node/16327

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  10. RRM (10,001 comments) says:

    Pete George – re your 8:06am… Someone who lives in both worlds might just force the rest of them to up their game.

    It’s slowly dawning on me (I’m a leftist after all :-P ) that Cameron Slater’s Truth editorship has potential to really show up the print news media – provided he brings with him the style that made whale oil what it is. His blog is pretty crude at times but he’s generally right in what he say,s and he’s pretty incisive and seems to often be well ahead of the pack. It’s got to be easier to tame that a bit for print, than it would be to try to warm up an average news outfit like Stuff…?

    Elaycee –

    Is there much overtaking and real racing in F1 now? I haven’t watched it for about 8-9 years, I really tried to get into it but the reality of a procession lap after lap with either Schumacher or Hakkinen at the front of it just made that impossible for me – especially compared to all the plethora of clips available on youtube of racing from the 1960s – 80s.

    While I would hate to be the kind of “fan” that just hangs out for a crash or something, the season I tried to follow it the most exciting things that happened were (1) Hakkinen’s career-ending spin out and subsequent cry in the bushes, and (2) Honda engines blowing up with flames & smoke etc. The actual racing just didn’t appear to exist, it was all won & lost in the pits.

    So I ended up following the WRC instead. Rally cars going sideways in the mud aren’t really my thing at all; but at least it was competitive and it was all about the driving, and the drivers all seemed like real guys…

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  11. flipper (4,188 comments) says:

    Pete , the real problem for the left is that the are caught in a 1900 – 1928 time warp.

    They fail to recognise that the world has moved on and that their ideas have been shown by widespread and tragic experimentation (including Hltler, Stalin and Mao) to be an abject failure. The policies now being driven by a failed lecturerer in constitutionaL law / community organiser (Lordy, would not Key, Gillard, Cameron et al like to “conduct” an Obama-like media conference.) place the US in danger of screwing the an economy responsible for 25% of the world GDP. Their problem, you say? Wish it were. They sneeze; we catch pneumonia.

    The entitlement mentality that Labour espouses is supported and driven by the (MSM) media children. They are too inexperienced to recognise their own stupidity.

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  12. kowtow (8,712 comments) says:

    There’s an important by election in England. It could even be a water shed historic moment.

    Rotherham,where a Labour crook stood down over expenses has been labour for yonks. It is where the council recently took foster kids off a UKIP voting couple.

    If UKIP win it could be the moment the 3 party mould is broken and democracy returns to Britain. Here’s hoping.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100192106/tonight-ukip-have-a-chance-to-show-the-world-theyre-more-than-just-a-protest-vote-for-angry-tories/

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  13. Pete George (23,676 comments) says:

    RRM I agree that a damn good shake up of news media would do a lot of good, and as you say Whale is ahead of the pack. It will be interesting to see how Truth goes.

    It’s also interesting to see the rise in interest from The Standard and Trotter and their conflicting ideas.

    – They helped promote a leadership debate through their blogging
    – They complained bitterly when MSM promoted a leadership challenge at the conference
    – They blast the MSM for their incompetent old ways
    – Relishing the new found attention the MSM gave them they suddenly think they have power
    – Part of that power is holding the MSM to account
    – They blast the MSM for daring to hold them to account
    – They vigorously defend their right to comment anonymously
    – They blast MSM identities
    – They feed off attention given to them by MSM identities

    And so it goes on. They are now talking this up into a major class struggle, the evil MSM versus the brave anonymous bloggers. The new battle (having so far lost their battle to kick Shearer out).

    They make some valid points along the way, and I agree that MSM needs a good shakeup and ordinary people should and can have more say.

    But they have a major problem, and it seems to be very entrenched. As old school political activists they have trouble thinking beyond “us and them”. They have fought left versus right, Labour versus national, worker versus boss.

    So they automatically see this as blogger (unless it’s Brian Edwards who’s not a real blogger anyway, he’s one of them) versus MSM. And it’s a battle that must be won for the good of humanity.

    Back to Whale. He’s got it much better sussed, he has it worked out and they are just wiping the sleep from their eyes.. It’s not an either/or us versus them battle.

    It’s a merge and adapt opportunity. Use the strengths of the old with the advances of the new.

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  14. Pete George (23,676 comments) says:

    flipper – yes, I saw your comment ofter posting my last one and I say similar, they are in a time warp.

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  15. Lance (2,704 comments) says:

    All Blacks infected with Norovirus;

    Is Suzy on the loose again?

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  16. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Congrats to the government who have decided to talk a walk on the bright side.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10850963

    It’s a welcome relief from the usual National Party support and connivance with the world’s worst dictators, although with incorporating an indigenous political party into government and adopting UNDRIP National is perhaps dragging its arthritic limbs into a more modern era.

    Now if we could get Bill English and Steven Joyce to install new software versions into their brain logix programming framework, we may start cooking with gas! (Caveat: metaphorically speaking, boys, so no fractured claims of gotcha, pleeese).

    The high point of today’s GD so far must be this from RRM:

    …but he’s [WO] generally right in what he say,s (sic)

    All that is wrong with the so-called ‘right’ (actually, usually the ‘wrong’) is encapsulated in that flight of fanciful delusion!

    As to the lament of no strong voices on the ‘left’, one needs to understand that the MSM are attracted to and publicise the extremists like the aforementioned WO. Farrar built up his blog by appealing to a small but vocal subset of angry old white men and gave them freedom to vent all manner of racist, white supremacist, Islamophobic – hell, non-whitephobic, truth to tell – homophobic, misogynist and generally all manner of prejudices known to God and Satan alike!

    ‘We’, if there is ‘we’, are more principled than that.

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  17. Elaycee (4,403 comments) says:

    @RRM: Yup – Formula 1’s quest for ‘parity’ between cars went over the top and for a few years overtaking seemed like a dying art. But since they introduced innovations including DRS in 2011, there is overtaking aplenty!

    DRS (Drag Reduction System) means that when the car enters a specified ‘zone’ on the circuit (and as long as you are within 1 second of the car in front), the highest part of the rear wing changes from providing maximum downforce to almost no downforce at all… this means that there is less drag and in turn means that the car behind develops a far greater terminal speed than the one in front. And passing occurs. As soon as the car emerges from the DRS zone, the wing returns to it’s “normal’ position and maximum downforce returns. It’s all done electronically and there are no driver inputs required.

    Changes to tyres also means strategy plays a bigger part in winning these days – Pirelli provides two (dry weather) compounds for each race and one is far ‘softer’ than the other and the car will go faster on soft compared to harder (duration) compounds. But both compounds have to be used during the race and this means teams have to work our when to pit and change from one to the other. It is far more interesting than what we suffered a few years ago when we were watching Schumacher disappearing into the distance.

    This year in Formula 1, there were 7 different winners over the first 7 races of the season! That’s got to be a hell of a lot better than watching Seb Loeb’s Citroen winning all and sundry in the WRC.

    Besides, asphalt is for racing. Dirt is for growing cabbages. :D

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_reduction_system

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  18. Falafulu Fisi (2,179 comments) says:

    Brain teasing & Amusing Science (cut & pasted from the internet).
    —————————————————————————————————–

    Spirits of influential philosophers & scientists over the past 3000 years bumped into each other at an intergalactic event outside heaven, which they decided to have an informal chat. A spirit of a young person was passing by and saw this group chatting which he recognized one of the faces, Einstein. He decided to stop and ask them a question.

    Young Spirit asked : Why did the chicken cross the road?

    Aristotle: It is the nature of chickens to cross roads.

    Isaac Newton: Chickens at rest tend to stay at rest, chickens in motion tend to cross roads.

    Albert Einstein: Whether the chicken crossed the road or the road moved beneath the chicken depends on your frame of reference.

    Werner Heisenberg: We are not sure which side of the road the chicken was on, but it was moving very fast.

    Wolfgang Pauli: There already was a chicken on this side of the road.

    Erwin Schrödinger: The chicken crossed the road and didn’t cross the road simultaneously.

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  19. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    It’s going to be an interesting next 24 hours in the world of Formula 1…

    Elaycee,

    Sorry, the FIA have rained on Ferrari’s parade already and deemed Vettel’s pass legal.

    http://en.espnf1.com/brazil/motorsport/story/96706.html

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  20. kowtow (8,712 comments) says:

    The UN vote?

    Cabinet must have figured out we sell more halal than kosher and decided to go with practical rather than principle.

    As to Abu Lucy’s comments on the “world’s worst dictators”, that’s simply laughable .

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  21. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    Falafulu Fisi

    In an ideal world, chickens would be free to cross roads without having their motivation questioned ;-)

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  22. Manolo (14,018 comments) says:

    A very stark assessment of the European situation : http://washingtonexaminer.com/u.s.-chamber-europe-is-dying/article/2514682#.ULexBUbCz8B

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  23. big bruv (14,116 comments) says:

    I note that the NZ rugby team are getting their excuses in early. Is Suzy in London now?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/8014606/All-Blacks-laid-low-by-stomach-bug

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  24. Lance (2,704 comments) says:

    @Luc
    With what kind of twisted logic does your link at 9:45am involve dictators?

    Let me guess, you are just making shit up again.

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  25. Grendel (1,003 comments) says:

    wow, abu lucy is resorting to claims of racism (and all the other isms) before he even gets his usual pointless arguments shot down. usually you save the whines of racism etc for after you have made a point and then had it destroyed by facts and logic.

    the fact that you went there first is quite telling about how even you know your views are pointless.

    which NZ leader held hands with arafat? which party has members that thought pol pot and his mates were on the right track? hint, not the national party.

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  26. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    @kowtow

    You guys have short memories, or maybe you are just too young to remember Don McKinnon’s insouciance in the face Suharto’s slaughters, for example.

    He may call it realpolitiks, I have another view. And Grendel has been talking to his imaginary friends again.

    I’m watching the Israeli Ambassador to the UN give his concession speech in the UN, replying to Abbas, spinning the usual Israeli litany of lies, distortion and myths. A distinctly hostile reception from a discerning audience well aware of the malevolence of this pariah state.

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  27. Grendel (1,003 comments) says:

    lucy lives in a world where NOT being a jew hater makes you racist.

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  28. RRM (10,001 comments) says:

    Luc Hansen:
    All that is wrong with the so-called ‘right’ (actually, usually the ‘wrong’) is encapsulated in that flight of fanciful delusion!

    Why, thank you Luc.

    have you noticed that Labour has spent the last 4 years telling people that black is actually white, Sir Peter Leitch / Sir Peter Jackson is actually a traitorous bastard not a good bastard, suddenly asset sales are an issue and we need to oppose them, etc etc…

    …and have you noticed no-one’s been listening (outside of The Standard readers) and Labour has been destroyed in the polls two elections in a row?

    The political left desperately needs to re-build. Going around telling everyone they are wrong is not the way to go about it.

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  29. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    You’re all so intellectual today. Thanks PG. It’s been an interesting debate.
    Allow me to bring the tone of the discussion down before it gets all UN highbrow:
    CatFight !!:

    http://nowoccupy.blogspot.com/2012/11/zip-it-sweetie.html

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  30. Falafulu Fisi (2,179 comments) says:

    If Luc Hansen doesn’t like being white, then I volunteer to completely skinned him and then graft some black skin on him, then ship him off to Somalia which is an equal society, since he laments the wealth of western society (because of inequality) and at the same time he enjoys living in the west.

    Are you up for it Luc? Please tell me your address so I can come with my knife and skin you alive, no anesthesia involved? I’ll just give a shot of whiskey and then, we’re on to the job. We’ll drink the remaining whiskey afterward. How about that, huh?

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  31. Elaycee (4,403 comments) says:

    @Falafulu: I don’t think you’d be short of helpers, either!

    But don’t fret too much about Abdul Ahmed Lucy – he needs to be treated for what he is: a joke! :D

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  32. kowtow (8,712 comments) says:

    The UN a discerning audience?

    When the end of the colonial era saw the introduction of so many turd world dictatorships to the UN,that was the end of it.

    The abuse of the democratic principle in that hall of shame is disgusting. Kleptocrats who don’t allow their own citizens to vote!

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  33. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Vote in favour of recognition of Palestine:

    138 in favor

    9 against

    41 abstentions

    I think that’s what is termed a comprehensive win for justice, albeit insufficient to redress the exact opposite enacted 65 years ago, today.

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  34. Scott Chris (6,176 comments) says:

    Why did the chicken cross half the road?

    Because it wanted to lay it on the line.

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  35. Fletch (6,479 comments) says:

    Pete George @8:06 – your post about bloggers reminded me (unfortunately) of a blogger in Iran who told Supreme Leader Khamenei in an open letter that his judicial system was nothing but a slaughterhouse.
    Of course, he was taken to prison where he was tortured and killed.

    After posting on his blog an open letter to Iranian Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei accusing him of operating a murder industry against the Iranian people in the name of Islam, Iranian blogger Sattar Beheshti, 35, was told by Iranian authorities that he had crossed the line. He was arrested, and 10 days later, on November 6, 2012, it was reported that he had died in prison under torture.

    This was his blog post –

    “Mr. Khamenei, [in Iran] people are arrested, and are then subjected to a series of tortures until they confess to crimes they did not commit. Burning cigarettes are extinguished in their flesh; they are branded with hot irons, their heads are shoved into toilets full of excrement until they confess to a sin they never committed.

    “After the passing of a sentence based on this confession, the laws of shari’a and of God’s religion are implemented!…  Is this [indeed] God’s religion – or is it [merely] violent behavior in the name of God’s religion, with the aim of remaining in power?

    “Mr. Khamenei: As an Iranian, I see you and your judicial system – your slaughterhouse – as artists in the art of murder. Believe me [when I say] that I think you’re an artist.”

    “The families of prisoners have written several letters to you and have gathered at your palace gate, seeking to appeal their loved ones’ sentences – and what have you said?

    “You, who call yourself the leader of the believers and the legitimate representative of God, you, who see yourself as loving all creation –have you ever made the effort to talk with the families or to answer their letters?…

    “Is this not art, that displays the torment and murder of the nation? Do you agree to the sentences and to [these methods for] extracting confessions? If you do, why not announce that you agree with such conduct… and if you do not, why not express regret?

    “Mr. Khamenei: If all the sentences were correct, and the confessions of all the prisoners were given without torture, then not one of them would be guilty! Aren’t the truly guilty ones none other but you and the unqualified heads of your regime?!…”

    “You And The Fat-bellied Clerics… Say That With Prayer, All Problems Can Be Solved – But After 33 Years Of Everybody Praying, Why Is Iran In The Abyss?”

    “You and the fat-bellied clerics… say that with prayer, all problems can be solved. But after 33 years of everybody praying, why is Iran in the abyss?

    “For 33 years, you have forced the people to direct their requests to the [tombs] of the imams instead of to the regime! If the imams and God create jobs by prayer, then what need is there for the government and the regime? You have taken the nation’s wealth for yourselves!

    “If the regime is meant to meet the needs of the people, then why do you remain silent in light of your incompetence and inability? Why don’t you just step down?”

    “All The Sentences And All The Executions Carried Out By Your Slaughterhouse Regime Were Not Out Of A Desire For Justice – But Were Aimed At Terrorizing The People”

    “All the sentences and all the executions carried out by your slaughterhouse regime were not out of a desire for justice – but were aimed at terrorizing the people! So that no one will complain! How long will the oppression continue?

    “…After 33 years… the blood of the Iranian nation is pouring from your talons. This is the shame and the scheming that is now being exposed.

    “And, finally, I want to say to all those within and without Iran: How long will you remain neutral and silent? … How long will you [continue to] hope for reform? We must unite today – so that tomorrow we will have no regrets…

    “My life is for Iran…

    This kind of stuff is happening every day in Middle East countries. Girls who refuse to marry a man being beheaded etc…

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  36. Fletch (6,479 comments) says:

    In Mali, six young people lashed 100 times simply for talking to each other in the street –

    BAMAKO, Mali (AP) — Timbuktu residents say that Islamist extremists controlling the city publicly whipped 6 young people, males and females aged between 16 to 22 years, who each received 100 lashes for having talked with each other on the city streets.

    Aboubacrine Yattara, who lives in Timbuktu and witnessed the whippings, told Associated Press over the phone that the young people were arrested last week by the Islamists controlling the city and were convicted Wednesday of comingling. He said they were flogged Thursday in Timbuktu’s small market.

    The head of the Islamist brigade responsible for customs in Timbuktu, Mohamed Ag Mossa Intoulou, did not deny the whippings when contacted by AP but said he did not have authorization to speak to the press.

    These people are savages – barbarians…

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  37. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    The vote followed by a long primal scream from Susan Rice, on behalf of the US, in a speech probably written in Tel Aviv.

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  38. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    These guys would love to have available David Bain’s access to compensation for wrongful conviction:

    http://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/28/central_park_five_new_film_on

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  39. Fletch (6,479 comments) says:

    I think that’s what is termed a comprehensive win for justice, albeit insufficient to redress the exact opposite enacted 65 years ago, today.

    On the contrary – justice has been denied this day in the name of Repressive Tolerance or political correctness.
    What a complete joke.

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  40. thedavincimode (6,867 comments) says:

    Luc

    Shall we each give another $500 to Sattar Beheshti’s family or to benefit kids that the Iranian regime hasn’t slaughtered yet? I’m game. What about you?

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  41. Fletch (6,479 comments) says:

    ps –

    If there is a real ‘Palestine”, than it is today called Jordan.

    Here is Melanie Phillips on the subject –

    Anyone familiar with the history knows it is correct [that ‘Palestine’ is Jordan]. Immediately after World War One, Palestine consisted of what is now Jordan, Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. The great powers dividing up the region decided that Britain should be given a mandate to administer Palestine and restore within it the historic Jewish national home. Within a couple of years, however, Winston Churchill, for reasons of realpolitik, gave away three quarters of Palestine to the Hashemite dynasty to found (Trans)Jordan (leaving all the rest to be settled by the Jews; but that’s another story).

    So Jordan is indeed Palestine. As Camie Davis points out, the Arabs themselves repeatedly said so:

    Jordanians, for decades, were avid proponents of the ‘Jordan is Palestine’ position. They used that position as justification for the annexation of the West Bank, arguing that Palestine was one single, indivisible unit, and that Jordan was the legitimate governing body of Palestine…

    ‘We are the government of Palestine, the army of Palestine and the refugees of Palestine.’ Prime Minister of Jordan, Hazza’ al-Majali, 23 August 1959

    ‘Palestine and Transjordan are one.’ King Abdullah, Arab League meeting in Cairo, 12 April 1948

    ‘Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate.’ Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2 February 1970

    ‘Jordan is not just another Arab state with regard to Palestine, but rather, Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan in terms of territory, national identity, sufferings, hopes and aspirations.’ Jordanian Minister of Agriculture, 24 September 1980

    ‘The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.’ King Hussein 1981

    Indeed, until 1970 the Palestine Liberation Organisation conducted terrorist operations against Jordan on the grounds that it was Palestine and the Hashemite minority was ruling the Palestinian majority. It was only after Jordan killed thousands of Palestinians in ‘Black September’ (and who in the west ever cared about that??) that Israel suddenly became the sole historic homeland’ of the Palestinians and Jordan was airbrushed out of the picture — and the fabrication of ‘Palestinianism’ became the accepted truth.

    But as ‘Palestinian’ politician Zouhair Moussein told the Dutch newspaper Trouw in 1977 (hat tip: Israel Matzav):

    The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism.

    For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

    It is the west’s refusal to acknowledge this connection, and wholly to misrepresent instead both the history of the region and the causes of the conflict in the Middle East, which is one of the principal reasons why that murderous impasse continues to this day.

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  42. flipper (4,188 comments) says:

    Oh dear, “lucie Luc” is all of a quiuvver over the Grand Mufti’s surrogates getting a favourable UNGA vote….that in reality, means absolutely NOTHING.

    Before you pontificate (apologies to Rome) on this matter again lucie, go study real, non fictional, history. In particular, examine and consider the WW II actions and 1948 actions/ poilicies of the fascist Grand Mufti. A fine example of the Muslim Brotherhood, was he not?

    Oh, by the way, Lucie…. from December 8, 2012 ….have a Happy Hanukkah

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  43. Manolo (14,018 comments) says:

    Long live the Jewish State. The Palestinians will get nothing and go nowhere.

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  44. kowtow (8,712 comments) says:

    Another member of the Islamic bloc at the UN ,that’s got to be good for world freedom.

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  45. Lance (2,704 comments) says:

    Luc’s all exciting about his perceived victory of a people that wants him to hate homosexuals, support the mutilation of female genitalia and suppress women. Then to convert to Islam or die.

    Excellent

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  46. RightNow (6,995 comments) says:

    Attempt at a shakedown by playing the race card fails. Litigant vows to pursue other methods:

    Sionepulu’s husband told the tribunal he and his wife had decided not to ”participate in the discriminatory palangi justice system” and would instead appeal to Maori and Pacific Island media and selected members of parliament.

    Oh boy, I can’t wait to see which MP’s that might be.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8019287/Racism-sexism-claims-after-crash

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  47. kowtow (8,712 comments) says:

    The vote today at the UN is perverse and shows what a charade the organisation has become.
    International Day of Solidarity indeed,deliberatlely set on the day the earlier,non Muslim controlled UN voted to create Israel.

    http://www.un.org/en/events/palestinianday/

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  48. Nookin (3,453 comments) says:

    First Christmas Joke
    Three men died on Christmas Eve and were met by Saint Peter at the pearly gates.

    ‘In honour of this holy season’ Saint Peter said, ‘You must each possess something that symbolizes Christmas to get into heaven.’

    The Englishman fumbled through his pockets and pulled out a lighter. He flicked it on.. ‘It’s a candle’, he said.

    ‘You may pass through the pearly gates’ Saint Peter said.

    The Scotsman reached into his pocket and pulled out a set of keys. He shook them and said, ‘They’re bells.’

    Saint Peter said ‘You may pass through the pearly gates’.

    The Irishman started searching desperately through his pockets and finally pulled out a pair of women’s panties.

    St. Peter looked at the man with a raised eyebrow and asked, ‘And just what do those symbolize?’

    The paddy replied, ‘These are Carol’s.

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  49. Harriet (5,085 comments) says:

    Kowtow#

    The writing is now on the wall for the likes of Tiawan…………….the left never think ahead!

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  50. Pete George (23,676 comments) says:

    This is curious – NASA have said they have found plastic beads on Mars. Presuming they weren’t accidently left behind by previous visitors the assumption is that they have been formed there, which means needing a petrochemical ingredient.

    The type of plastic sampled as we know so far can only be formed using petrochemicals, meaning not only that there could possibly be a source of oil on the Red Planet, but that somehow it got turned into plastic.

    Even more interesting is that oil or petrochemicals used to create this type of plastic are only known to come from ancient fossilized organic materials, such as zooplankton and algae, which geochemical processes convert into oil pointing to the earthshaking evidence that there was once life on mars.

    I think there should be a fracking moratorium for Mars until all the data has been collated and analysed.

    http://nasaupdatecenter.us/press.html

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  51. flipper (4,188 comments) says:

    NO Pete…

    It (fracking on Mars) MUST first be proved to be “safe”. :)

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  52. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    ” Penny..your anal beads have been found”…” Penny?”…

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  53. flipper (4,188 comments) says:

    Hi Nookin….

    This is not Xmas, but not bad:

    John Howard, Barack Obama and Vladimir Putin all die and go to hell.

    While there, they spy a red phone and ask what the phone is for. The devil tells them it is for calling back to Earth.

    Putin asks to call Russia and talks for 15 minutes. When he is finished the devil informs him that the cost is a million dollars, so Putin writes a cheque.

    Obama calls the US and talks for an hour. When he is finished the devil informs him that the cost is 4 million dollars, so he writes a cheque.

    Finally John Howard gets his turn and talks for 4 hours. When he is finished the devil informs him that the cost is 20 cents. Howard just smiles. Obama and Putin go ballistic, and ask the devil why Howard got to call Australia for only 20 cents??

    are you ready……………

    (scroll down please)

    The devil smiles and replies: “Since Julia Gillard took over, the whole country has gone to hell. It’s a local call.”

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  54. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    Have you read about Iceland’s economic success as of late? Over 4% GDP growth. What do you think of their methods? The only thing I disagree with is nationalizing some of their banks.

    The govt bailed out the people and jailed the bankers. Opposite to the US and Europe

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=481649895211305&set=a.331477873561842.79943.330566470319649&type=1&theater

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  55. kowtow (8,712 comments) says:

    UKIP jump to second place in Rotherham by election.
    Some dumb arse journalist who was kidnapped by the Taliban,then became a Muslim ran for the Respect Party.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_by-election,_2012#Result

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  56. Harriet (5,085 comments) says:

    Reid#

    “…….Excellent dissection of Goldman Sachs’ role in the GFC:…..Obviously this is not a dig at Key, it’s directed at those naive people who still hallucinate that Wall Street normally really does play a straight bat and they’ve done nothing wrong, at all…..”

    Idiot!

    Reid…..everyone who isn’t naive and who doesn’t hallucinate knows that Goldman Sachs doesn’t have a branch in Rome! :cool:

    You should

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  57. Lance (2,704 comments) says:

    @Pete
    Really want to send the Greens apoplectic;

    Get them to take a look at whats running the latest mars rover

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator

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  58. Harriet (5,085 comments) says:

    Lance#

    This was in the link –

    “…..In the past, small “plutonium cells” (very small 238Pu-powered RTGs) were used in implanted heart pacemakers to ensure a very long “battery life”.[10] As of 2004[update], about 90 were still in use….”

    And with an abundance of wealthy babyboomers…..it’s enough to give the Green’s a heart attack! :cool:

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  59. Elaycee (4,403 comments) says:

    Toni Erikson (the mother who was unlicensed, under the influence of ‘P’ and had a car ‘accident’ that killed her 12 yr old daughter), was sentenced today… to 12 months home detention! FARK!

    In August, just before she was due to stand trial, Ericksen pleaded guilty to a charge of driving under the influence of drugs causing death, two counts of injuring while under the influence of drugs, and one count of being an unlicensed driver, driving while prohibited.

    So, no driver’s licence. Under the influence of ‘P’. Causes a crash. Kills her daughter. Injures others (including another daughter). And she gets 12 months home detention!

    You may remember this dopey bint – she was the one who had her photo splashed across the paper – complete with her flipping the bird at the photographer. Not exactly someone you’d ever want to take home to meet Mum and the kids….

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10830158

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  60. Lance (2,704 comments) says:

    @Harriet
    Yes and no
    They will shriek hysterically at the radioactive core but be glad that more people will die to save the planet.

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  61. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Steven Joyce has an interesting view on the free market…

    “If they want us to be more directive, I’m more than willing,” Joyce said. “I’m watching them really closely to make sure they do respond to what the market wants, and if they don’t, I can go and tell them how many they should enrol for each department.”

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  62. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    Elaycee, you act surprised ! 12 months home D isn’t unusual for killing someone in NZ…hell give it another couple of years and we will be locking up victims and paying compensation to criminals.

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  63. OneTrack (3,204 comments) says:

    “flipper (1,139) Says: November 30th, 2012 at 1:45 pm Hi Nookin….”

    Fantastic :-)

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  64. Elaycee (4,403 comments) says:

    @liarbors a joke: Sadly, I think you’re right.

    Did you know that we have at least 14 people walking our streets who have killed twice in their lifetimes? TWICE! So not only were they locked up for the first offence and subsequently paroled, they did it again!

    A ‘great’ justice system we have – NOT!

    http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/violent-crime/6

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  65. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    Doesn’t surprise me Elaycee. I lay the blame squarely at our ” justice ” system and pathetic inept out of touch namby pamby overpaid judiciary.

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  66. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Pete George (15,397) Says:

    November 30th, 2012 at 1:15 pm
    This is curious – NASA have said they have found plastic beads on Mars.

    Have they been falling out of your Dear Leader's ears, Pete?

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  67. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8020179/Seven-time-drink-driver-still-driving

    Judges not doing their job again..

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  68. Steve (North Shore) (4,581 comments) says:

    Luc likes chinese whispers. The whole thing is a hoax, but we need funding to make sure.
    http://www.lucfuckwit.org

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  69. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    Steve (North Shore),

    I clicked and there was nothing there – a vacuum void of form, content and substance.

    And it hit me…

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  70. Steve (North Shore) (4,581 comments) says:

    Oh bhudson I hope that didn’t hurt, you should have realised that it was a bitchslap to Luc

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  71. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    It must have been just like looking in a mirror, then, bh.

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  72. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Talking of Steves, I see Stevie Wonder has cancelled his upcoming performence for the IDF child murderers.

    A Steve with a conscience is a nice change!

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  73. Steve (North Shore) (4,581 comments) says:

    Luc, troll, cork soaker.
    So funny

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  74. Steve (North Shore) (4,581 comments) says:

    Stop trolling Luc, it is just me, don’t be scared.
    You do not have to digress into Stevie Wonder from the plastic beads just to fuck around.
    What fucking drugs are you taking/prescribed/forced ???

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  75. Viking2 (11,541 comments) says:

    Big Bruv went to the hospital as his wife was having a baby.

    Upon arriving he sits down, and the nurse says,
    “Congratulations, your wife has had quins, 5 big baby boys.”

    Big Bruv replies, “I’m not surprised, I have a penis on me like a chimney.”

    The nurse replies, “You might want to consider getting it cleaned,they’re ALL BLACK.”

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  76. Steve (North Shore) (4,581 comments) says:

    V2, that’s gonna hurt. Good start for tomorrow

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  77. Viking2 (11,541 comments) says:

    History Lesson.

    http://johnansell.wordpress.com/2012/11/30/bruce-moon-parihaka-film-propaganda/

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  78. Manolo (14,018 comments) says:

    Like one another: http://www.cnbc.com/id/50022833

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  79. Viking2 (11,541 comments) says:

    Oh what joy.
    The Yanks ripping off copywright from the Yanks.

    Hollywood’s Universal Studios has filed a copyright lawsuit against a porn production company, accusing it of lifting language, characters and plot from the best-selling erotic book trilogy ‘‘Fifty Shades of Grey’’ for its own adult films and sex toys.

    Calling one of the adult movie adaptations of the British novel ‘‘a rip-off plain and simple,’’ Universal’s lawsuit seeks to stop sales of copycat porn movies and to recoup any profits they earn.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/film/8020931/Lawsuit-filed-against-porn-company

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