Stopping forced marriages

November 13th, 2012 at 11:00 am by David Farrar

Marika Hill at Stuff reports:

After hearing of a distraught school girl forced to marry by her parents, National MP knew she couldn’t stand by and do nothing.

The 100 teenagers – most of them school girls – who marry each year in New Zealand would require a court’s permission to walk down the aisle under Dr Blue’s proposed amendment to the Marriage Act.

Marriage under the age of 16 is illegal in New Zealand, but 16 and 17-year-olds can marry with parental consent.

More than 1000 teenagers gained consent to marry over the past decade, according to Statistics New Zealand.

Four out of five of those were female.

Dr Blue said only a small number of teenage nuptials would be marriages forced upon girls for cultural reasons.

“The majority are probably quite legitimate, but the majority of those minors are young girls. I can’t not do anything. If it saves one young girl it’s going to be worth it.”

I think this is a good idea. A 16 or 17-year-old is still officially a minor and is far more likely to be able to be coerced by their parents.

Yes some 16 and 17 years olds want to marry on their own initiative. But I don’t think the proposed change really disadvantages them. Either they merely have to wait until they are 18 (they can be engaged until then) or they get the permission of the court which will check the marriage is truly desired.

The idea I think is that it will discourage parents from forcing their child into an arranged marriage if they know a Judge will question their child on whether they really want it.

This is not a huge problem in NZ, but I don’t see the proposed law at having much downsides, and if it saves even a handful of young girls for a then it is worthwhile.

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73 Responses to “Stopping forced marriages”

  1. Brian Smaller (4,026 comments) says:

    I think that it those bloody Scots again, or Italians. Seriously? What ethnic/cultural group are we talking about here?

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  2. dime (10,125 comments) says:

    unless they are gay of course. then its all good :)

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  3. Redbaiter (9,632 comments) says:

    Can’t get what is going on here at all.

    But knowing Jackie Blue is concerned with it makes me nervous.

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  4. scrubone (3,105 comments) says:

    Doesn’t seem like a big ask – quick interview with a judge to make sure all is on the up-and-up.

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  5. Monty (980 comments) says:

    so the greenie and Labour will oppose this because it is a National Party proposal.

    And why someone would ever want to get married at 16 or 17 (or 18, 19 20 21 22 23 24 ) is just beyond me.

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  6. IHStewart (388 comments) says:

    Why the hell we let 16 and 17 year olds get married is beyond me.

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  7. kowtow (8,776 comments) says:

    There is something very wrong with this story.
    No one is saying “who” the problem is. There is a pointer though at the end…..Pakistan,Malawi! Is this the diversity dividend,the celebration of multiculturalism that we are constantly being urged to?

    Immigration from cultures that are so different to the host is not necessarily a good thing.

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  8. Longknives (4,884 comments) says:

    Far better we encourage them the ‘New Zealand way’.
    Stay unmarried, then when you get knocked up at 17 you can roll into the nearest WINZ and claim to not know who the father is, thus setting yourself up for a life of lounging round home and spitting out kids while ‘rich prick’ taxpayers generously fund your party lifestyle and pokie addiction…Voila! You will never have to work a day in your life (so long as you remember to get knocked up every couple of years!)

    Yeah those ‘foreign’ cultures have really got things wrong haven’t they?

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  9. Mobile Michael (464 comments) says:

    I would think that most teenage marraiges in NZ take place on the West Coast at the Brethern community.

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  10. gazzmaniac (2,307 comments) says:

    But I don’t think the proposed change really disadvantages them. Either they merely have to wait until they are 18 (they can be engaged until then) or they get the permission of the court which will check the marriage is truly desired.

    So now if you’re under 18 and religious/ultra conservative you have to ask a judge for permission for a root, as well as your parents?

    I wouldn’t be voting for it. It’s the state interfering with lives more and more.

    [DPF: I think getting married at age 16 so you can have a root is almost the worst reason to do so.]

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  11. IHStewart (388 comments) says:

    What the hell has Malawi done wrong ?

    http://hamishinauckland.blogspot.co.nz/2012/11/human-rights-maybe-malawi-gets-it-now.html

    In New Zealand there is in my experience a African parental resistance to early marriage.

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  12. RRM (10,026 comments) says:

    Not sure if her proposed solution is the best one, but it’s good she is giving this issue airtime.

    This isn’t Afghanistan, you don’t have any right to force your children to get married here, it is something they should be free to choose.

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  13. Andrei (2,668 comments) says:

    Why the hell we let 16 and 17 year olds get married is beyond me.

    Cluelessness on display, throughout most of human history most people married before they were twenty – which is why you are here to pontificate. Your ancestors did just that for the most part and got on with their adult lives

    In these enlightened times raising children is seen as an imposition that will interfere with your achievement of self fulfillment or something.

    It is that attitude that is why Western Civilization is in its dying days, the future belongs to those who are good at raising the next generations, not to the banal who murder their babies lest they interfere with their living the high life.

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  14. RRM (10,026 comments) says:

    In these enlightened times raising children is seen as an imposition that will interfere with your achievement of self fulfillment or something.

    It is that attitude that is why Western Civilization is in its dying days, the future belongs to those who are good at raising the next generations, not to the banal who murder their babies lest they interfere with their living the high life.

    You, sir, are an idiot.

    And you appear to be living in a particularly distasteful little personal fantasy world, one that reflects your own prejudices in dazzling clarity.

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  15. gazzmaniac (2,307 comments) says:

    [DPF: I think getting married at age 16 so you can have a root is almost the worst reason to do so.]

    So what you really don’t like is that some religions encourage kids to get married so that they can do what the rest of us just do anyway.

    As for solving the “problem” of forced marraige, I don’t for one second imagine that there wouldn’t be pressure from the family for the girl to tell the judge what he wants to hear.

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  16. Chuck Bird (4,924 comments) says:

    Andrei, you have a point about some mature 16 and 17 year olds getting married. I bet there are a few people who have been married for 40 or 50 years who married when one or both were under 18 when they got married. However, that is not the topic which is forced marriage which is an entirely different thing.

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  17. Kea (13,359 comments) says:

    Well well well…………… Where are all the self righteous anti-racists today ?

    This proposal is clearly an attack on vulnerable racial/cultural/religious minorities. The age of consent (if “consent” is even required) is far lower in many other cultures around the world. This is an example of Western “White” values being imposed on others. I may add that this is currently being done within NZ law, so it is a legal non issue . Who are we to impose our narrow Western views on law abiding minorities?

    Why am I not seeing a pathetic display of fake outrage from those desperate to pretend they are not racist? Why are they not crying down this proposal? Where have you all gone today guys?

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  18. PaulL (6,048 comments) says:

    1. Forced marriage is bad. I’d be broadly supportive of things that would prevent forced marriage
    2. Some 16 and 17 year olds legitimately get married, some of them because they’re pregnant, some just because they want to.
    3. Getting time with a judge could be quite onerous, and there is also an impact on judicial workload (its not like judges are sitting around doing nothing). This isn’t free.
    4. On balance, I’d support, but subject to clearly understanding how easy it is to get to see a judge, and whether the judge is going to do anything other than check that you’re not Muslim then wave it through (in which case it’s a waste of time)

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  19. Chuck Bird (4,924 comments) says:

    Kea, forced marriage is not within NZ law. It is assisting in rape in some cases.

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  20. BlairM (2,365 comments) says:

    I hope those claiming 16 and 17 year olds should not be allowed to marry are also prepared to say they should not be allowed to have casual sex either! One strikes me as no more irresponsible than the other.

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  21. RRM (10,026 comments) says:

    Why am I not seeing a pathetic display of fake outrage from those desperate to pretend they are not racist?

    Kea

    I think they went ————> that way.

    You should go have a look and see if you can find them!

    (twat)

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  22. Harriet (5,132 comments) says:

    You’re all fucken stupid!

    Strengthening the Marriage act for just SOME kids? WTF is that about?

    “When Marriage is optional, then people concentrate on the negatives instead of the positives….this has been the outcome from no-faults divorce legislation…parents then use children as pawns etc…..” – Australian family court judge.

    Strengthening the Marriage act for those who CHOOSE to get Married is the way to go for the sake of children, and I think, National will do this too!

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  23. KevinH (1,236 comments) says:

    I have no problem whatsoever with setting the moral standard for marraige according to New Zealand custom. Both parties to marraige must give consent without coercion, that is the Kiwi way and our way rules.

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  24. GJKiwi (175 comments) says:

    Actually, the real problem what is happening around the world. Defending what happens in other cultures is fine. However, forcing a 13 year, sometimes younger, into a marriage where the male is dominant and allowed by law to have sex with his wife (very often against her will, which is defined as rape under New Zealand law) is not.

    Read more on this website.

    http://theahafoundation.org/

    The founder of this organisation, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, escaped a forced marriage and ended up in the Netherlands, became a Dutch MP, made a movie with Thomas van Gogh (who was murdered for his efforts), and she now lives under protection in the US, because she chooses to speak out against such behaviour. Her book, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Infidel tells her story of growing up in Somalia and being subjected to FGM, and later into a forced marriage, despite her father being a very open-minded liberal muslim. He still believed in making her marry someone, despite the fact that she didn’t want a bar of it. Imagine someone telling you what you were to do with the rest of your life, who you would marry and where you would live.

    Regarding casual sex, mmm, let me see. Trying to stop young people having sex is like trying to stop them breathing. It won’t happen. Stopping them having sex with people 3 times their age is quite a sensible thing. Encouraging them to use contraception is also very important. However, just as someone stated above, it was quite usual for people to marry at a young age, and the average age has varied over time, including times in the early modern period where the average age of marriage for women was 29. However, interestingly, there was quite often in those times a “try before you buy” mentality, particularly amongst rural people, to ensure that the woman was fertile, thus ensuring a large family.

    With regard to the New Zealand issue, the parents will no doubt threaten the young woman so that she will say what she is told, and so, in agreement with PaulL, it is quite possibly a waste of time. Good education is probably better, discussing with young people their options in a New Zealand context.

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  25. Kea (13,359 comments) says:

    RRM….. Your caught (again) with your hand in the Hypocrisy cookie jar.

    Do you have any other white liberal western values you want imposed on “other” cultures by the state? or are you just happy telling them how to marry?

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  26. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    ”Not a very big problem here..” Who knows how big the problem? When this issue was aired on TV awhile back it seemed to be a big problem in AK , Hamilton etc….Not just the youth and coercion but also immigration fraud..The young girls were being forced to marry 40 something codgers so said codgers could get in to NZ..There also has to be great concern for the children born of these so called ” marriages.”

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  27. RRM (10,026 comments) says:

    or are you just happy telling them how to marry?

    Oh no my hypocrisy doesn’t end there Kea :-P
    I have plenty of other values that I want imposed on everyone:

    No Honour killings.

    No rape.

    No theft.

    No assault.

    No fraud.

    No vandalism.

    No type 3 female genital mutilation of infants.

    Drive on the left side of the road.

    Please, tell me more about how I’m a hypocrite for thinking these values should be imposed on people from other cultures in New Zealand…

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  28. Harriet (5,132 comments) says:

    They’re laws……they are there to be IMPOSED upon everyone!

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  29. Chuck Bird (4,924 comments) says:

    The problem could be solved if NZ and the rest of western countries did not allow immigrants who worshiped a paedophile.

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  30. nasska (11,813 comments) says:

    And Chuck Bird is the chocolate fish winner for the day. Closing the gates to the paedophile worshipers would cross out three of RRM’s concerns & make an almighty dent in the remainder.

    Muslims don’t integrate & when they emigrate from their native shitholes, simply move their stone age customs to another setting.

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  31. Steve Wrathall (285 comments) says:

    CB has a point. The UK is at this moment, taking down statues, and scraping off inscriptions because they honour a paedo. But they’re still building mosques…

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  32. Griff (8,199 comments) says:

    Not all forced marriages are by Muslims other cultures practise it as well.
    Arranged marriage of the unwilling is not appropriate in NZ culture.
    New Zealand has a duty to ensure that all have the opportunity to live their life as they see fit within reason. A child has a right to not be exposed to slavery, a girl should not be made to do all the chores of some random man not of her choosing. Kids should not be coerced to have sex .

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  33. Kea (13,359 comments) says:

    Please, tell me more about how I’m a hypocrite

    RRM, please read the article again. What is happening is not against the law. The proposal is to criminalise their cultural practices.

    Thanks for the list. It confirms you do indeed want to force your beliefs on other cultures. Your a hypocrite because this flies in the face of your remarks on other threads.

    Anyone following the past few days will know your full of shit and display a baltant double standard. It is the double standard that annoys me, not the values you pretend to hold.

    Its noted that “genital mutilation” only bothers you when its “female”. Further hypocracy. Genital mutillation of boys is accepted in NZ now, and you have no problem with it. Why so…..?

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  34. PaulL (6,048 comments) says:

    Kea: circumcision (what I presume you mean by male genital mutilation) has very few ill effects and some quite strong medical benefits. It’s clearly still a matter of personal choice, but there is some logical medical reason why a parent may wish it for their child – that is to say reasonable people could disagree whether or not to do it.

    Female genital mutilation has no compelling medical reason for doing it, and is largely done in order to subjugate women. It is very unsafe, and has very negative impacts for that girl (and later women). Reasonable people would not disagree on whether it is a bad idea – I’ve never heard a reasonable argument as to why to do it.

    Conflating these two things is ridiculous.

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  35. RRM (10,026 comments) says:

    Kea:
    Its noted that “genital mutilation” only bothers you when its “female”. Further hypocracy.

    My, you’re quick to jump to conclusions! No wonder you’re wrong so often.

    In fact… the only reason I said FEMALE was because discussing circumcision always turns into a whole other flame war all of its own, and we are far enough off-topic already ;-)

    Kea:
    Anyone following the past few days will know your full of shit and display a baltant double standard.

    Your a hypocrite because this flies in the face of your remarks on other threads.

    Since you can’t explain my hypocrisy in your own words with any detail, maybe you could quote one of these double-standard, hypocritical remarks of mine to illustrate what you’re trying to say? Go on. As always, any ONE quote would do, and I’ll let you have the point.

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  36. RRM (10,026 comments) says:

    Kea:
    Thanks for the list. It confirms you do indeed want to force your beliefs on other cultures.

    Purely to satisfy my curiosity Kea, which of those beliefs that I listed do you have a problem with NZ society enforcing on people of other cultures who come here?

    Is it the no Honour killings thing??

    No rape??

    No theft??

    No assault??

    No fraud??

    No vandalism??

    No type 3 female genital mutilation of infants??

    Drive on the left side of the road??

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  37. annie (539 comments) says:

    Teenagers need to be protected from forced marriage until the age of 20, the age at which girls subject to a traditional upbringing can be expected to have enough initiative, confidence and independence to go it alone financially.

    I’ve met several girls from Middle Eastern, Indian/Pakistani, north African and Exclusive Bretheren families whose families have tried to force them to marry someone they didn’t choose – the ones who dind’t knuckle under were all at least 20. What’s interesting is that an NZ education, even to tertiary level, didn’t seem to be any protection from chattledom.

    We’re well overdue putting legal systems in place to stop this sort of medieval abuse of young women.

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  38. DJP6-25 (1,389 comments) says:

    GJ Kiwi 2:03. I think that’s the kind of situation this legislation is aimed at. I guess Jackie Blue is being circumspect because she doesn’t want to ‘offend’ Muslims.

    cheers

    David Prosser

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  39. Kea (13,359 comments) says:

    Kea: circumcision (what I presume you mean by male genital mutilation) has very few ill effects and some quite strong medical benefits.

    PaulL, That is the exact same argument used by proponents of female circumcision. Google it for yourself.

    RRM asks:

    Purely to satisfy my curiosity Kea, which of those beliefs that I listed do you have a problem with NZ society enforcing on people of other cultures who come here?

    This confirms that he does not read my posts. Here is what I actually said: “Anyone following the past few days will know your full of shit and display a baltant double standard. It is the double standard that annoys me, not the values you pretend to hold.”

    Still no word about the genital mutilation of male infants, as practised in NZ and other Western Countries. Why?

    (Hint: Your a racist who plays to popular sentiment, but has developed no moral compass within himself)

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  40. RRM (10,026 comments) says:

    Kea:
    This confirms that he does not read my posts

    No, Kea, what you “actually said” was Thanks for the list. It confirms you do indeed want to force your beliefs on other cultures. So go on, if you have a problem with these values that our society ALREADY DOES enforce, then you should be able to say which ones you have a problem with, and why.

    And I notice you STILL can’t point to a single example of an RRM double standard… not even one. I realise the English language with all its intricacies can be a tricky one to you camel-jockeys, but come on man, you’ve had HOURS now to search the site.

    kea:
    Still no word about the genital mutilation of male infants, as practised in NZ and other Western Countries. Why?

    Silly me, I thought I answered that at 4:07pm. But apparently I’m the one who doesn’t read posts properly :-P

    Kea:
    Hint: Your a racist who plays to popular sentiment, but has developed no moral compass within himself

    You’re a racist. It’s you’re. Not your. you’re.
    The contraction of you and are.

    Now fuck off back to Syria where you came from camel jockey, and tell your sister to do the decent thing or you’ll stone her for adultery.

    There, that’s racist. ;-)

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  41. Kea (13,359 comments) says:

    I was clearly not saying I “had a problem” with the values you pretend to hold RRM. I was simply drawing your attention to the fact that you do prefer your Western culture to dominate the culture of others. This is something you have previously denied doing.

    Now fuck off back to Syria where you came from camel jockey, and tell your sister to do the decent thing or you’ll stone her for adultery.

    At last some honesty!

    I bet you feel much better now :)

    As salamu alaykum

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  42. RRM (10,026 comments) says:

    Yes kea because a system of laws that apply to all citizens is such a uniquely white, Christian, oppressive thing isn’t it? :-)

    My lot are just allowed to do anything we like when we’re in Syria, right?

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  43. Kea (13,359 comments) says:

    I do not suggest you try that RRM.

    You could try showing them all your KB posts, to prove how “liberal and inclusive you are”. You could present your credentials to show your not “racist” (explain the concept first), but you may get a reality check.

    Oh and while your over there, watch out for those American backed insurgents bringing Sharia Law Western democracy (American version) to one of the oldest cultures on earth.

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  44. Shunda barunda (2,985 comments) says:

    Teenagers need to be protected from forced marriage until the age of 20, the age at which girls subject to a traditional upbringing can be expected to have enough initiative, confidence and independence to go it alone financially.

    My wife and I have been married for nearly 14 years, she was 18 at the time and I was 21, we were at a similar maturity level at that age and both believe it was the best decision we ever made.

    One rule won’t fit everyone, there is nothing wrong with getting married young.

    There are huge upsides to it in fact.

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  45. PaulL (6,048 comments) says:

    Kea, if you think female circumcision and male circumcision are similar, then I think you need to do a bit more research.

    Male circumcision has a very low complication rate (but not zero), and confers a reduction in sexually transmitted diseases. It also appears to have only minor impact on the child/man other than that reduction in sexually transmitted disease impact, and the fact that some religions see it as important (so if they choose to stay in that religion there is a benefit).

    Female circumcision has a higher complication rate, and significant downsides for the child/woman, usually removing a substantial amount of pleasure they might otherwise get from sex. In fact, that is the main purpose – to make it less likely that the woman would enjoy sex, and therefore more likely to stay faithful to her future husband. There’s also sometimes some sewing up that goes on, which is intended to prove virginity, and has only negative impacts for the girl/woman.

    In short, it’s pretty barbaric. Are you seriously defending it? Or are you drawing an absurd parallel because you think that it will help some argument about male circumcision getting also banned?

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  46. PaulL (6,048 comments) says:

    RRM: I believe Kea is attempting to assert that, in this case, you’re keen to apply our cultural norms (some would say basic human rights) to other countries. And that in times past, you’ve asserted that it’s appropriate to apply cultural relativism in an argument that other countries should be allowed to do what they want in their own country.

    Can’t say I’ve seen it myself, but I think that’s the argument. Either that, or he believes that you are always forcing ugly western beliefs on other countries, and just denying it, and that he’s finally caught you out.

    And he still can’t spell.

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  47. Kea (13,359 comments) says:

    Yes PaulL you got it.

    Are you suggesting that people who do not demonstrate, the best Queens English, should piss off back to where they came from ? I bet that is just what you meant ;)

    It is so refreshing to see you all getting over your white-guilt act.

    I am off to shag my Goat, before prayers….

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  48. Kea (13,359 comments) says:

    Are you seriously defending it?

    Show me where I “defended” female circumcision ?

    The only person who is “defending” the genital mutilation of kids is you. I suppose since I asked you to provide proof I had better do the same.

    Here is you defending the mutilation of kids genitals:

    Male circumcision has a very low complication rate (but not zero), and confers a reduction in sexually transmitted diseases. It also appears to have only minor impact on the child/man other than that reduction in sexually transmitted disease impact, and the fact that some religions see it as important (so if they choose to stay in that religion there is a benefit).

    I am opposed to ALL genital mutilation of kids, regardless of their sex

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  49. Kea (13,359 comments) says:

    I should add that I have been with a few girls who have been subject to female circumcision. Everything worked perfectly. (But I guess that can’t match what you read on some feminist web site.)

    I have heard of horror stories. The more extreme forms are not widely practiced and are isolated to a few countries, where that is the least of their worries.

    I think its a disgusting cruel thing to do to a little girl (or boy). You would never hear me say this: ” It also appears to have only minor impact on the child” PaulL (4,918) Says:
    November 13th, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    But most of the focus goes onto the worst cases, which are mostly in Africa.

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  50. PaulL (6,048 comments) says:

    Kea: there are levels of female circumcision. There are definitely reports of a “once over lightly” that has little impact, as you say going through to the extreme versions. I suspect RRM’s specification of level 3 means something.

    I believe that most or all people agree that female circumcision is actually genital mutilation. I don’t believe that most or all people agree that male circumcision is genital mutilation. Personally, I wouldn’t do my children, but I also can see that other people in other circumstances could legitimately make a different choice. Male circumcision has been a very substantial part of the fight against AIDS in Africa, and in that context I think it probably makes sense (i.e. if I was living in Africa I might make a different decision).

    Again, I think you are conflating very unlike things, and I think it is wrong to do that.

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  51. gump (1,662 comments) says:

    @PaulL

    The debate around circumcision is centered on consent. Children and infants cannot give consent to the procedure.

    Which brings us back to the topic at hand. Young teenagers who are forced into marriage cannot give consent to the marriage.

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  52. Kea (13,359 comments) says:

    There were a few grammar mistakes in that post PaulL. Are you from around here ? ;)

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  53. Chuck Bird (4,924 comments) says:

    Kea, have you noticed a total lack of support. I have made some comments that have attracted abuse but seldom universal abuse without any support. NZ like a number of countries had a Judeo-Christian heritage and/or ethic. If we go to your part of the world and our women do not cover their ares let alone their legs they are treated like sluts. This even happens in parts of Oz.

    I say say if pedophile worshipers want to come here and think they can be accessory to rape of adolescent girls they should go back to they came from where suicide bombers are considered heroes instead of the scum they are.

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  54. mikenmild (11,776 comments) says:

    Marriage is a social relation entered into between consenting adults. It should not require any regulation by the government at all. For convenience, we have adopted a range of ages that define adulthood. I’m not sure that there should be any difference between the age of consent for sexual relations and marriage arrangements. Consent is the key; whether parents are forcing their children into marriage, prostitution or higher education.

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  55. annie (539 comments) says:

    Shunda barunda (2,350) Says:
    November 13th, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    Teenagers need to be protected from forced marriage until the age of 20, the age at which girls subject to a traditional upbringing can be expected to have enough initiative, confidence and independence to go it alone financially.

    My wife and I have been married for nearly 14 years, she was 18 at the time and I was 21, we were at a similar maturity level at that age and both believe it was the best decision we ever made.

    One rule won’t fit everyone, there is nothing wrong with getting married young.

    There are huge upsides to it in fact.

    My post advocates against forced marriage, not marriage.

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  56. RRM (10,026 comments) says:

    PaulL : Yeah that’s it.

    I am seriously advocating that the RNZAF fly to Syria and impose New Zealand cultural values on that whole god-forsaken country.

    And I woulda gotten away with it, if it weren’t for that pesky Kea!

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  57. Kea (13,359 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird, you are even thicker than I thought if you think I was defending the things mentioned in your post. I was drawing attention to the double standard that many here display.

    “Kea, have you noticed a total lack of support.”

    I don’t care. How about you stop trying to be popular and do whats right instead. Its called “integrity”

    Your racist outburst was refreshing and represents your most honest and coherent post on KB. Good on you. I hope this marks and end to your fake outrage over racist comments. (I never believed you anyway mate).

    Now if we can only stop the painfully self righteous Luc from his silly displays of fake offence, we can start to have some sincere debate.

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  58. Kea (13,359 comments) says:

    RRM,. this post is about what is going on “here” in NZ.

    Do you think the “mud races” should comply with your white liberal ideas HERE in NZ, or not? (yes that includes Maori)

    If not, provide reasons for the double standard.

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  59. Chuck Bird (4,924 comments) says:

    Kea, in case you do not know there is a difference between race and religion. A person has no choice in their race they do in their religion.

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  60. Griff (8,199 comments) says:

    race and religion
    Don’t forget culture its not your fucking ancestors that dictate the morals you use to live life by, your gods, its culture
    Chuck. You hang up on “judo christian” Far more influences our culture than the church.

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  61. Kea (13,359 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird, yes I do know what you mean, why mention it ?

    Interesting to note that YOU think a baby born in a strict Muslim country has a “choice” in their religion. Can you explain the options the child has to myself and fellow readers?

    Does the little Muslim girl exercise that “choice” when her clit is trimmed off ?

    Please explain…

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  62. Griff (8,199 comments) says:

    Chuck bird has placed emphasis on NZ’s Judeo-Christian heritage.
    New Zealand is different to many culture that share the church.
    Godzone has it own unique culture
    The culture of this country is da bomb :grin:

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  63. RRM (10,026 comments) says:

    Do you think the “mud races” should comply with your white liberal ideas HERE in NZ, or not? (yes that includes Maori)

    Finally – now THERE’s a question I can answer.

    Yes. Yes I do. I think my ideas about what the laws of the land should be are pretty good ideas. :-)

    (I didn’t say “mud races” though – you said that ;-) )

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  64. Kea (13,359 comments) says:

    Well RRM, finally you have stopped the PC crap, which is all I ever asked. Now we can debate over what we really think.

    I am sure you will sleep better tonight, knowing you told the truth ;)

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  65. RRM (10,026 comments) says:

    :lol: :lol: :lol: LOL kea you really blow my mind sometimes…

    So after all your bullshit, bluster and posturing on this thread; at the end of it all we are right back to exactly what I said my initial comment yesterday, only in slightly different words:

    RRM Says:
    November 13th, 2012 at 12:00 pm

    This isn’t Afghanistan, you don’t have any right to force your children to get married here, it is something they should be free to choose.

    :-) Thank you for your time. Please come again…

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  66. nasska (11,813 comments) says:

    Kea is correct in so much as ‘cultures’ that are intertwined with ‘religion’ & evolve within a select ‘racial’ group are resistant to change. The people have been programmed by their leaders to obey & never question no matter how batshit mad their customs are.

    All the more reason not to invite them to join as citizens of a liberal & democratic country. It doesn’t work now & it never will.

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  67. RRM (10,026 comments) says:

    Nasska – I’m not very well-travelled myself but I’ve met a fair few immigrants to NZ from pretty god-forsaken countries. Invariably the ones I’ve met have seemed like good people as far as I can tell.

    I say let them come… as long as they understand what New Zealand laws are, and don’t bring any behaviour that breaks New Zealand laws I couldn’t really care less what god they worship….

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  68. Kea (13,359 comments) says:

    I say let them come… as long as they understand what New Zealand laws are, and don’t bring any behaviour that breaks New Zealand laws I couldn’t really care less what god they worship….

    Not much wrong with that, however you jump all over me like box of fleas when I express similar ideas.

    But that is all in the past, now your telling the truth :)

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  69. Griff (8,199 comments) says:

    Assimilate concerning the parts of their previous culture that are not compatible to ours
    Racism : ?

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  70. nasska (11,813 comments) says:

    RRM

    I agree with the sentiment but seeing the vast gap between the theory & the practise puts me off the idea of extending the welcome mat. They may arrive with ambition to break away from the old ideals but it doesn’t take long for them to group in ghettos & try to force their ideas onto the rest of us.

    Through our eyes it seems irrelevant which god they worship until you realise that it is the glue which binds them together against the ‘infidel’. Without its evil influence they just might integrate with our society but so long as the religious leaders get to hammer their separatist crap into young minds we are creating huge future problems.

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  71. Kea (13,359 comments) says:

    “Assimilate concerning the parts of their previous culture that are not compatible to ours
    Racism : ?”

    I spent 3 bloody days trying to point that one out Griff :)

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  72. GJKiwi (175 comments) says:

    As I said, read Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s book, Infidel. Then you’ll all be qualified to comment. Also, here is a link about what is happening in the US.

    http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_phoenix_metro/central_phoenix/yusra-farhan-sentenced-to-probation-for-beating-daughter-over-arranged-marriage

    This is the end result if young women don’t comply.

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  73. ChardonnayGuy (1,216 comments) says:

    While most arranged marriages compell schoolgirls, it also happens to young gay men within such ethnic and religious communities, often with similar degrees of compulsion, including intimidation, standover tactics and violence against the recalcitrant adolescent.

    And insofar as seperatist western religious institutions go, I can think of one that is a rule unto itself insofar as its hideous record of concealment and denial of clergy pedophilia goes. Yes, that one.

    You see? This is what untrammelled and absolute ‘religious liberty’ means (as opposed to meaningful religious freedom, which respects the rights of others and accepts that while freedom of religious practise is broad in a liberal democratic pluralist society, it cannot be absolute.) I’d have no problem whatsoever supporting a ban against forcible and coercive arranged marriages at all. It probably wouldn’t be against the Bill of Rights Act 1990, either.

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