The pay gender gap

November 30th, 2012 at 12:00 pm by David Farrar

APNZ at NZ Herald report:

A campaign has been launched to demand equal pay for women after finding that, on average, men are paid at least 10 per cent more than women.

Women should be paid the same as men – of course. But I am unsure that this is an issue that can be solved centrally.

A recent study fund that around 60% of men do not just accept a salary and terms offer but try and negotiate it upwards. By contrast only 10% of women do the same. So reversing that 90% of women just accept what is offered as opposed to 40% of men.

I’d say the best way to close the pay gap is for individual women to be more assertive in pay negotiations.

is a structural problem that requires structural solutions.”

I’m not at all convinced that is the case.

Tags:

23 Responses to “The pay gender gap”

  1. Manolo (13,755 comments) says:

    Another useless campaign probably led and driven by bureaucrats and femi-nazis.
    All we need is performance-related merit pay, regardless of sex. Period.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. Keeping Stock (10,337 comments) says:

    If Dr Judy McGregor, the EEO honcho at the Human Rights Commission spent as much time addressing this issue as she does making fun of gays, there might be progress.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. david c (254 comments) says:

    “I’d say the best way to close the pay gap is for individual women to be more assertive in pay negotiations.”

    Yes it’s definitely women’s fault that they are paid less. It’s because they’re just so … passive.

    WOMEN! Be more like men!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    I think DPF is on the right track, which is “which problem are you actually trying to solve”.

    Because there’s a variety of factors that could potentially lead to women (on average) being paid less than men. One of these is that they take on jobs that pay less. Another is that they are less comitted (that’s not a criticism) due to family comittments.

    Now, if you have a married couple and the wife is a homemaker, the husband has more time for his carrer. They share the results (divorce aside!).

    So you have to ask questions like:
    1. Do we really want to mess with the economic structure so that jobs women gravitate to are better paid?
    2. Do we want to penalise people for being more comitted to their job?
    3. Do we want men who support a family to be paid less than those who’s salary only contributes half of that cost?

    In all cases, I’d say anyone who says “yes” needs their head seen to.

    I tend towards the view that the “pay gap” is a measure which is so broad to be meaningless and misleading.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    The pay gap is never going to be closed. Women take time off to have and raise kids, and of course Alisdair Thompson identified a problem exclusive to women. These all have an effect on pay.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. In Vino Veritas (139 comments) says:

    So the implication is that the gender pay gap is by and large the fault of women themselves, and that they now want to make their problem everyone else’s problem. Excellent.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. Manolo (13,755 comments) says:

    ross69, this is one sensible thing you said in 1,085 comments. Good on you, comrade.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. Dazzaman (1,140 comments) says:

    Feminazi’s…..still in denial that they have a uterus & pulpy parts…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    A news item in the December 31, 2006 UK Sunday Times makes for revealing reading.Men, it seems, are not really the villains here. Instead, women appear to be the main opponents of the advancement of women.

    Entitled, “Office queen bees hold back women’s careers,” the two authors, Roger Dobson and Will Iredale, report on a study of over 700 women which found that “female rivalry in the workplace may sometimes be as important as sexism in holding back women’s careers.”

    The study found that when presented with applications for promotion, women were more likely than men to assess the female candidate as less qualified than the male one. They were also prone to mark down women’s prospects for promotion and to assess them as more controlling than men in their management style.”

    One female worker put it this way: “It is called the ‘queen bee syndrome’. I have seen women in managerial positions discriminating against other women, possibly because they like to be the only female manager or woman in the workplace.”

    The study found that “Female participants had a stronger tendency than male participants to view the female candidates as less qualified than the male candidate . . . they also thought that the female candidate would fare worse in the future in her job than the male candidate.”

    Like many radical social movements, feminism has had elements of truth which were pushed to unhelpful extremes. Yes there has been, and is, sexism, but it is not all one-way traffic. And yes, many men treat women poorly, but so do some women, in their treatment of both men and other women. This study helps to bring just a bit of balance to what has often become a one-sided debate.

    And when all that is ‘averaged out’ the findings will be that women get paid less!

    The most ‘bitchiest’ child in any and all school classrooms is FEMALE! :cool:

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    I takes a certain type of blog to argue against equal pay for men and women.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. lastmanstanding (1,293 comments) says:

    Over 40 years in many work places employing large numbers of people its been my observation they are far more bitches than there are bastards.

    Id put the numbers at 5 or 6 to 1.

    One of my first management roles was as a young accountant at 22 with 8 wimmin reporting to me some old enough to be my Mum and a couple old enough to be my Granny.

    Geeeeezzzzz the problems I had. Not with them and me but with them and them sorting out the cat fights. It talk me a lot about management and managing wimmin in a very short time.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. Ross12 (1,425 comments) says:

    To talk of averages is absolutely crazy. The only way to check if there is any gap is to men and women in the same job with the same experience levels. That is, compare men and women lawyers or accountants or teachers or shop workers etc at the same level in their respective organisations.. Otherwise the figures are meaningless.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. Archer (208 comments) says:

    I’m not sure what the government can do here. We already have legislation in place requiring equal pay when there is no differentiation in actual work (Equal Pay Act 1972). So the only further step the government could do is actively monitor what each employer pays their staff and collect information on every employee’s actual duties, work hours, oncall time, productivity etc, and their remuneration. The government would then have to decide which employers are paying their staff differently purely based on sex and investigate. It wouldn’t be hard for an employer to explain any differences in pay as usually there are at least some differences in work duties for people working in the same office, eg someone that often works late or is on call etc would (should) get more.

    Regardless of the merits, it all sounds like an expensive waste of time and a huge compliance cost for business, as well as requiring a new department/subdepartment of government.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    I takes a certain type of blog to argue against equal pay for men and women.

    It takes a certain sort of person to argue that equal pay should happen regardless of job, experience, expertise, or comittment.

    I for one think anyone who pays someone less because they are a woman are seriously misguided.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    Archer,

    It is not pay equality they are arguing for, but pay equity.

    “Pay equity is a structural problem that requires structural solutions.”

    Taking dear old wikipedia just for illustrative purposes. And Canada as an example…

    In contrast [to pay equality], pay equity, in the Canadian context, means that male-dominated occupations and female-dominated occupations of comparable value must be paid the same if within the same employer.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. Chuck Bird (4,880 comments) says:

    When I read the link to the Herald article I could not beleive it. They are comparing salaries not hourly rates. That is ridiculous. Many men would long hours driving truck. Should then get the same weekly wage as a women working 70% of the hours?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. peterwn (3,271 comments) says:

    Women may be in less of a position to negotiate than men. For ‘basic’ jobs, they may be no room for negotiation – it is ‘take it or leave it’. For some work categories like teachers and nurses, it may be possible to negotioate one higher step or an extra management unit, but in many cases a rigid formula would apply. Best scope for negotiation would be where there are only one or two in a specitic type of job since management can agree to higher pay without a domino effect. There seems to be two opposing forces with pay rates. Managers on one hand need to keep costs down so will arrange lower level jobs to minimise the overall wage bill. For higher level positions, it becomes important to find someone of the right experience and attitude, so there is more flexibility to agree to more pay since the effect on the overall budget is small. It is likely that as many women will tend towards lower paid jobs or jobs with inflexible conditions, they just are not able to negotiate.

    Incidentally, as far as I can see:
    1. An applicant is in the best bargaining position when offered a job, since the employer has invested significant effort and cost to that point and may not wish to start over on another shortlisted candidate.
    2. An applicant should never accept a job unless the proposed employment contract is on the table. There is a risk of a verbal offer and acceptance followed by the employer presenting a written contract for signature different from the employee’s expectations.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. Falafulu Fisi (2,179 comments) says:

    Anything to do with gender studies is Mikemild’s domain of expertise.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    Fuckwits ( not you lot – I mean the morons pushing another barrow…)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. Alan Wilkinson (1,878 comments) says:

    I taught a final year computer science honours class for a decade. In that time I had one female student – Asian of course. Consequently most of our well-paid staff are now male. However the very few females are paid on exactly the same basis.

    These lobbyists are morons. If they want equal pay, start their own business and earn it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. Brabus (31 comments) says:

    There are over 20 quantifiable reasons women earn less than men and not one has anything to do with discrimination. The below link is to a lecture by Dr. Warren Farrel explaining his research. BTW Warren Farrel started out as a feminist and still considers himself a feminist. He just got interested in doing some research that involved more than simple surveys.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. mattyman1010 (35 comments) says:

    I’m pretty sure Thomas Sowell destroyed that myth years ago…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    I’m pretty sure Thomas Sowell destroyed that myth years ago

    Nobody thinks it’s true. And I mean nobody. It is simply a political pretext.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote