Will this get widely reported?

November 22nd, 2012 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

The Houston Chronicle reports:

Masked gunmen publicly shot dead six suspected collaborators with in a large Gaza City intersection Tuesday, witnesses said. An Associated Press reporter saw a mob surrounding five of the bloodied corpses shortly after the killing.

Some in the crowd stomped and spit on the bodies. A sixth corpse was tied to a motorcycle and dragged through the streets as people screamed, “Spy! Spy!”

No doubt the evidence was carefully considered in a fair trial.

Witnesses said a van stopped in the intersection, and four masked men pushed the six suspected informers out of the vehicle. Salim Mahmoud, 18, said the gunmen ordered the six to lie face down in the street and then shot them dead. Another witness, 13-year-old Mokhmen al-Gazhali, said the informers were killed one by one, as he mimicked the sound of gunfire.

They said only a few people were in the street at first — most Gazans have been staying indoors because of the Israeli airstrikes — but the crowd quickly grew after the killings. Eventually several hundred men pushed and shoved to get a close look at the bodies, lying in a jumble on the ground. One man spit at the corpses, another kicked the head of one of the dead men.

“They should have been killed in a more brutal fashion so others don’t even think about working with the occupation (Israel),” said one of the bystanders, 24-year-old Ashraf Maher.

One body was then tied by a cable to the back of a motorcycle and dragged through the streets. A number of gunmen on motorcycles rode along as the body was pulled past a house of mourning for victims of an Israeli airstrike.

Funnily enough, brutally murdering Palestinians gets far fewer headlines, than Israel missile strikes killing Palestinians.

UPDATE1: A Hamas official has criticised the killings, or at least criticised “The way these collaborators were killed and the images after their death …”. 

UPDATE2: Egypt has announced a truce between Israel and Hamas. This is a good thing. Now if Hamas could just drop their objective of destroying Israel, then a durable peace for land settlement could be contemplated.

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190 Responses to “Will this get widely reported?”

  1. iMP (2,385 comments) says:

    There were also the photos of dragging the bodies thru the streets tied to motorcycles, like something out of the Iliad. Barbarians.

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  2. nasska (11,510 comments) says:

    Not to worry….Luc & Reid will be along shortly to point out that they didn’t exceed the speed limit while towing the body & it was all the fault of the nasty brutal IDF anyway.

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  3. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Gosh. What these chaps could do with is to be living in an actual country, with laws, law enforcement, a justice system and what-have-you. How foolish of them not to have set those things up…

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  4. Rich Prick (1,705 comments) says:

    Charming. Doesn’t the “Religion of Peace” frown upon that sort of thing?

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  5. berend (1,709 comments) says:

    It obviously destroys the narrative to inform the viewers too much about Hamas.

    I noticed the bus bomb also isn’t mentioned by NZ Herald (perhaps buried).

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  6. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    I have to say, this was widely reported, like yesterday.

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  7. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    It would appear the trial had all the hallmarks of those conducted before every drone attack, whether by the US or Israel. I haven’t seen you complaining about those, my friend. You know, the ones where women and children regularly get blown to bits, literally.

    Say, do you consider incinerating children with white phosphorous bombs less morally reprehensible than this incident in a densely populated de facto suburb of Israel? I’m genuinely interested in your reply.

    And can you point me to a comment from you condemning Libyans when they provided a similar fate for Gaddafi?

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  8. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    Reporting from yesterday:

    I heard an unconfirmed report that one of them was actually murdered for owning pornography. Apparently some wanker emailed him some home made nudist porn on Saturday night to make him feel good.

    They forgot that its illegal in Gaza

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  9. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Geez, I gotta practice my typing speed…coming thick and fast just while I was composing the little missile missive above!

    Anyway, it’s great to see the plucky Gazans on the streets celebrating yet another victory over enormous odds.

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  10. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    C’mon Tim, you ran that by us yesterday.

    Isn’t it time for you to go back to your office in Tel Aviv?

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  11. berend (1,709 comments) says:

    It’s very enlightening to see how the left reports this, here the AP story which the NZ Harald obviously found completely acceptable to publish without change. Already notice the headline: “swift retribution against accused spies”. You’d think?

    The story first sets the scene:

    The two saloon cars were blasted by missiles within 300m of each other, burned out and compacted to half their size; a house nearby was the next to be hit, followed by two more in quick succession. The next strike was on a street where people had gathered outside a mosque.

    Bad Israel for defending itself! No word about rockets being launched next to mosques.

    The story follows with “excuse us for not telling you this earlier”:

    Such public killings have been carried out in the West Bank and Gaza since the first uprising against Israeli occupation in the late 1980s.

    Note the word killings. The journo can’t bring himself to write “murder”.

    Then the numbers to put things in perspective, the Palestinian numbers are carefully collaborated, not!:

    The campaign has killed more than 130 Palestinians, including dozens of civilians, and wounded hundreds of others. Five Israelis have been killed.

    Israel is obviously completely disproportional in not firing back as many rockets as the Palestinians fire.

    Next we always report two sides in the story, we report, you decide, hint hint:

    The Israeli airstrikes, starting off near the hospital, and then spreading to other areas, began seven minutes later. They may have been direct reaction to the rocket attack, or, as many people here believe, a last frenzied round of bloodletting before a deal which is said to include the condition that Israel stops assassinations such as that of Hamas military commander Ahmed al-Jabari last week.

    Oops, were we actually talking about the brutal killings? Forgot all about that, because we really want to talk about the brutal killings by you know, the Israelis who daily fire rockets into Gaza:

    “Peace? Maybe for a few days, a few weeks. After that, the attacks would start again. We are Palestinians, this is our fate.” As he spoke, there were sounds of repeated explosions coming increasingly closer.

    Yep, Israel is the problem, we really don’t do anything.

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  12. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Lay off the “women & children” crap Luc.

    Even if it were true, the kids are the fighters of tomorrow and are often used as combatants even when young. The women raise them, instill values in them, feed the enemy and are part and parcel of the conflict.

    I am tired of having my intelligence insulted with lies about dead brats. Every time Israel responds, we are told some baby dies. Its a lie.

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  13. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    It was pretty funny though. Needed a repost

    Definitely 40 minutes of Luc free air last night

    Kea made the point “when are you going to answer THAT comment”

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  14. AG (1,827 comments) says:

    “Will this get widely reported?”

    Apparently so:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10849137
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/wrath-of-gaza-is-felt-by-those-accused-of-treason-8336223.html
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/20/israelis-talk-fear-palestinians-death?intcmp=239
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/11/21/video-men-drag-body-of-israeli-spy-through-gaza-streets/

    You do know how Google works, right DPF?

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  15. nasska (11,510 comments) says:

    Luc

    ….”Anyway, it’s great to see the plucky Gazans on the streets celebrating yet another victory over enormous odds.”…..

    Anyway it’s great to see the craven cowardly Gazan terrorists on the street hiding behind small children & the skirts of women.

    There…… FIFY!

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  16. Reid (16,457 comments) says:

    Let’s hope DPF that you’ll run a thread soon on why people support Israeli politicians killing innocent civilian human beings for election purposes. There’s no question that’s what is happening. This is a vote-gathering offensive and some people are supporting Israeli politicians killing human beings to garner votes. This is not a security operation, you can tell that from the timing of it only happening now, four years since the last one, when the rockets have been flowing at a constant pace over the intervening years. It’s inarguable. This is killing for election purposes. And some people are supporting it.

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  17. berend (1,709 comments) says:

    AG, you know how to read stories right? How much space did they devote to this story compared to how many lines attacking Israel in that same story?

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  18. berend (1,709 comments) says:

    AG, do you know how to use Google? I just saw your Guardian story, no mention at all of these beasts murdering people in the streats.

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  19. Ryan Sproull (7,153 comments) says:

    List of dead brats available here:

    http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2012.html

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  20. Trouble Man (8 comments) says:

    It’s almost as if Hamas is a repulsive terrorist organisation, and Israel has pretensions at being a modern secular democracy, and therefore we hold them to different standards!

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  21. kowtow (8,475 comments) says:

    I linked the story from the Daily Fail yesterday. They have more photos of Abu Luc’s mates dragging the body in today’s edition.
    In the DM despite the story and pics there’s a mass of people condemning the Israelis!

    Oh and don’t forget it’s pollies and academics,generally but not exclusively, of the left who want us to celebrate multiculturalism and diversity and to import ever more of these thugs to teach us a lesson about how boring,drab and oppressive white culture is.

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  22. kowtow (8,475 comments) says:

    It’s great to see Gazans out celebrating in the streets,like when news of the Twin Towers outrage reached them.

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  23. queenstfarmer (782 comments) says:

    It’s inarguable. This is killing for election purposes.

    Oh, I see. So Hamas is actually trying to help the Israeli government by launching unprovoked rocket attacks on Israel at just the right time to allow Israel to kill for election purposes. Thanks for clearing that up.

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  24. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    And can you point me to a comment from you condemning Libyans when they provided a similar fate for Gaddafi?

    So you’re saying that this is the same as killing off a murderous, crazy dictator who enslaved his country for decades.

    No Luc, it’s not.

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  25. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Anyway, it’s great to see the plucky Gazans on the streets celebrating yet another victory over enormous odds.

    Dragging an unarmed man out onto the street and shooting him is now “yet another victory over enormous odds”.

    I’d hate to hear your take on the holocaust, but I’m guess from your non-response yesterday that you’re (at one level anyway) smart enough to hide how extreme you really are.

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  26. kowtow (8,475 comments) says:

    It is killing for election purposes.

    Hamas kills Israelis and fellow Arabs to ensure their grip on the “democratic” process in Gaza.

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  27. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    TimG_Oz (761) Says:
    November 22nd, 2012 at 10:24 am

    It was pretty funny though. Needed a repost

    Definitely 40 minutes of Luc free air last night

    Kea made the point “when are you going to answer THAT comment”

    Wtf are you on about? Do I have to reply to every piece of crap you post?

    And I respond to every challenge I see, unless it is absolutely beneath contempt. But I don’t live on here, sorry.

    So you want a comment on execution for possession of pornography?

    Do you need me to comment on Indonesians executing people for possession of marijuana? Or Singapore?

    My comment is, when in Rome, do as Rome says.

    Or, and this should surely meet with universal approval here, if you do the crime, be prepared to do the time!

    If you really want to get my attention you can email me. Click on my handle. It’s not difficult!

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  28. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    Hmm, pretty sure I saw this mentioned on Stuff, yesterday…?

    DPF:
    Funnily enough, Hamas brutally murdering Palestinians gets far fewer headlines, than Israel missile strikes killing Palestinians.

    I’m sorry but no, my expectations for how a civilised first world democracy should conduct itself are NOT exactly the same as what I expect I’ll see from a rag-tag gang of militant fuckers with AK47s.

    (By the standards of Kiwiblog discussion threads that probably makes me an Israel-hating anti-Semitic terrorist bastard roughly as bad as Arafat, I know I know… :roll: )

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  29. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    @Luc
    You stink of hypocrisy

    You claim the wicked wicked wicked Israelis ex-judicially murder civilians and its really really wicked and bad.
    The terrorists do the same (actually worse but that’s another discussion) and you applaud them.

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  30. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    queenstfarmer

    your post is the epitome of willful ignorance!

    The Jabari execution followed a two day truce that was adhered to be Hamas. The fact of the truce is why Jabari was driving in the open. It was what is commonly referred to as a sneak attack.

    Furthermore, until the siege is lifted and the occupation withdrawn, there is always provocation to the resistance in Gaza and the West Bank.

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  31. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    For the record, I disagree with the idea that this hasn’t been widely reported. It has.

    It’s just not as jucy as attacking Israel. Just like the “gospel of Jesus’s wife” was more jucy than the fact it was coppied from a PDF on the internet.

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  32. Reid (16,457 comments) says:

    Oh, I see. So Hamas is actually trying to help the Israeli government by launching unprovoked rocket attacks on Israel at just the right time to allow Israel to kill for election purposes. Thanks for clearing that up.

    I just explained the rockets have been falling constantly in the years between and only now, just before the Israeli elections in January, Israel does anything about it, same as she did at exactly the same time, four years ago with Cast Lead. What about that is hard to understand? You can look up the numbers on Wiki.

    Hamas kills Israelis and fellow Arabs to ensure their grip on the “democratic” process in Gaza.

    So kowtow can I take it you support the killing of babies for election purposes?

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  33. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Lance

    I didn’t applaud it and I didn’t applaud Gaddaffi’s demise, unlike most on here.

    But I do understand the emotions involved.

    I just don’t attempt to use such events to diminish their cause, as Tim wants to do.

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  34. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Furthermore, until the siege is lifted and the occupation withdrawn, there is always provocation to the resistance in Gaza and the West Bank.

    The occupation withdrew years ago. The “siege” only exists because of the rockets and the election of Hamas.

    So by your own standard, this is not Israel’s fault.

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  35. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    And Reid, don’t forget to let kowtow know about a little thing called occupation.

    That’s the original provocation!

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  36. AG (1,827 comments) says:

    @Berend,

    Yes. I do know how to read. Do you?

    “But if the Israeli intent is to try and break Hamas’s authority in the enclave, there’s little sign that is working. No one else, least of all its rival, Fatah, which controls those parts of the West Bank run by the Palestinian Authority, is stepping into the breach.

    And if anyone was in any doubt that Hamas continues to exert a form of authority, even from the shadows, the bodies of six men alleged to be collaborators with Israel were dumped on a Gaza City street on Tuesday afternoon. Some of their bodies were dragged through the streets, tied to the backs of motorcycles driven by armed men.”

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  37. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    And Reid, don’t forget to let kowtow know about a little thing called occupation.

    That’s the original provocation!

    Again, given there is no occupation of Gaza (and never was given you can’t occupy land that isn’t claimed by any government) again, by your own standard, this is not Israel’s fault.

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  38. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    Oh dear, I seem to have struck a nerve.

    20 quiet minutes and then bang! Watch the rage fly.

    Thanks Luc, you made my day :-)

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  39. AG (1,827 comments) says:

    @Berend: “How much space did they devote to this story compared to how many lines attacking Israel in that same story?”

    No idea. But DPF’s question was “will this be widely reported?” So I answered that question.

    If the question is “will this be reported in the way that I think it ought to be because I think Israel is the morally superior actor in the present conflict and Hamas et al are bad people” … I don’t care.

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  40. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    It’s almost as if Hamas is a repulsive terrorist organisation, and Israel has pretensions at being a modern secular democracy, and therefore we hold them to different standards!

    So what you’re really saying is the Palestinians in Gaza are not ready for – nor do they deserve – statehood.

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  41. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    No idea. But DPF’s question was “will this be widely reported?” So I answered that question.

    4 links is considered widely reported now?

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  42. queenstfarmer (782 comments) says:

    I just explained the rockets have been falling constantly in the years between…

    Exactly.

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  43. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    The occupation withdrew years ago.

    Grow up.

    Tim

    Same to you…I’m trying to watch Press TV, do you mind? And comment on local issues demanding intelligent input – which puts you out of the loop!

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  44. Reid (16,457 comments) says:

    As I said yesterday, the most appalling thing to me is the apostasy and arrogance shown by the Israeli leadership in naming this Pillar of Cloud. How can they possibly dare to be so monstrously arrogant as to flaunt such a transparently obvious association between what they are doing for the Israeli people and what God did for them? The association of what God did for the people of Israel with what the leadership is doing with the murder of innocents, ending lives for so venal a reason as four more years, is outrageous.

    It is also a flagrant propaganda tell for those who understand how political propaganda works.

    Exactly.

    So duh, it’s not about whether it was justified, it’s about the fact of the two timings. Der. The timing “coincidences” in fact date back to 1959 if you’re interested check yesterdays thread on this issue for the data.

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  45. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    Seriously though.
    The Palestinians need a better PR plan.

    Acting like barbarians with ex-judicial murders and desecration of the bodies, publicly celebrating 911, cheering every time something bad happens to the US and generally thinking the freedom loving peoples of the west are scum doesn’t really engender them to the wider public.
    They hate homosexuality, womens equality and sexual liberation. Which is puzzling why the leftists support them so much?

    Whereas Israel shares our western values, invites young people from around the world to participate in their kibbutz volunteer program (which engenders a life long favorable outlook towards Israel) and is fully democratic.

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  46. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    queenstfarmer (279) Says:
    November 22nd, 2012 at 11:04 am

    In response to egregious acts of violence by the occupiers. Resistance to occupation is both legal and a patriotic duty.

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  47. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Reid
    I posted this earlier today.

    Your figures and timing on rockets/mortars fired by Hamas et al into Israel designed to back your internal Israeli politics as the main motivation for Operation Pillar of Fire allegation don’t quite gel with the actual figures.

    Rocket fire into Israel accelarated through the 2000s but reach a crescendo that led to Operation Iron Lead. 2002 (35), 2003 (155), 2004 (281), 2005 (1255), 2006 (1777) then a big jump in 2007 (2807) and by the time Iron Lead commenced in late December 2008 the total for 2008 alone had peaked at 3716! When you look at the 2009 figure (858) most of that was concentrated in the early part of the year right after the cessation of Iron Lead and during the negotiation period. The remaining 10 months of 2009 the numbers dropped to only 300 or less than a 10th of what was being fired in the run up to Iron Lead. 2010 saw that quiet trend continuing (365) and this starting to climb again in 2011 to 680. Note that the Israeli absorbed rocket fire of that magnitude (680) for years without triggering a major Gaza intervention. BUT by mid Nov 2012 almost 2000 rockets have been fired with the monthly trend in 2012 (aside from 2 small spikes in March and June) being only 22 rockets per month until October it climbed to 171 and in November we’re at 1339 – a massive escalation! So you can say what you want about the Israeli elections but clearly Operation Pillar of Fire was in reaction to the sudden serious escalation in rocket attacks at the end of this year.
    [Source is Wikipedia for all attacks each one is footnoted and verified].

    If you look at the history of Israeli elections, few wars co-incide neatly with your theory partly because so many elections are triggered by the collapse of unstable multi party coalitions brought about by the Israeli political system which is an proportional system with no minimum threshold thus allowing many small parties representing extremist elements in Israeli society into the Knesset. Unnecessary, overreaching and unpopular wars result in defeat at the polls in Israel. Operation Pillar of Fire has bi partisan support so, echoing TimG Oz, its hard to see how Netanyahu gains votes at the expense of his likely rival Prime Ministerial opponent by launching Pillar of Fire. I’m not saying that the January elections have absolutely no bearing on this action but you are alleging that politics is pretty much the main reason for the IDF’s action. Israeli politics is far too complex and nuanced for such a simplistic representation

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  48. AG (1,827 comments) says:

    @Bevan: “4 links is considered widely reported now?”

    http://www.theage.com.au/world/gazas-motorcycle-lynch-mob-spies-executed-corpse-dragged-through-streets-20121121-29or1.html
    http://www.smh.com.au/world/gazas-motorcycle-lynch-mob-spies-executed-corpse-dragged-through-streets-20121121-29or1.html
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/9691942/Gaza-Palestinians-executed-for-collaborating-with-Israel.html
    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/gazas-motorcycle-lynch-mob-spies-executed-corpse-dragged-through-streets-20121121-29or1.html
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2235635/Gaza-crisis-Six-Israeli-spies-executed-baying-mob.html?ICO=most_read_module
    http://en.rian.ru/world/20121121/177624172.html
    http://www.24tanzania.com/six-israeli-spies-executed-before-baying-mob-in-gaza-city-before-motorbike-gang-drags-one-bloodied-victim-through-the-streets/

    And I could go on, but like I say, Google is very useful for anyone actually wanting to factcheck a claim.

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  49. BlairM (2,339 comments) says:

    Gosh. What these chaps could do with is to be living in an actual country, with laws, law enforcement, a justice system and what-have-you. How foolish of them not to have set those things up…

    I know you meant it ironically, but actually, yes.

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  50. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Luc
    The Israelis are not the occupiers of Gaza – they left in 2005.

    Jabari has been on the IDF’s ‘wanted’ list for years and that wasn’t a state secret. By that I mean you show your face in public we will kill you. Hiding behind a truce is a factuous defence.

    Why do the Palestinians persist in breaking all the rules of war and hide their weapons and launch sites in mosques, schools, hospitals and near civilian apartment buildings?

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  51. kowtow (8,475 comments) says:

    The occupation is the original provocation.

    Quite right. Time for the Arabs to bugger off back to Arabia where they belong ,the fucking Turks too.Give it all back to the Greeks I say.

    There fixed.

    Interesting how the leftards here love to point out that hamas are the legitimate,democratically elected nice guys of Gaza when it suits ,but when they show their true Islamic colours ,they are thugs who don’t need to held to the same standards as the democratically elected Israelis…..

    Abu Lucy wants to justify the Hamas brutality of murder for porn along the lines of that’s the law of the land ,get on with it. Fine.The law of the land of Israel is that it is a Jewish sovereign state,won in the teeth of invasion ,terror and war. Recognised as legal by the UN and international community. So if he and his Arab terrorist friends don’t like the consequences of rocketting Israel then they should either put up or shut up. To paraphrase him when in Rome /don’t like the time don’t do the crime.

    Don’t want an Israeli bomb,don’t fire rockets. Simple.

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  52. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    What BlairM said.

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  53. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    The occupation withdrew years ago.

    Grow up.

    Ironic response.

    But it underlines how the pro-palestinian cause is justified not by facts but by waving away facts.
    Rockets fired continually? Irrelevant.
    Not occupied for years? Irrelevant.
    Hiding among civilians? Irrelevant.
    Electing a government sworn to destroy Israel? Irrelevant.
    History of Arab agression towards Israel since it’s founding? Irrelevant.

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  54. Stuart (41 comments) says:

    Widely reported means to me getting as much front page, main story or ‘editors picks’ showing time as the stories about Israel killing Palestinians, not just existing buried within a few news websites.

    It also means what comes first in an article, i.e. the only part some people read – the usual is a few paragraphs of anti-Israel writing followed by a small line about the fact that the strike that killed X children was actually targeted at Hamas, and killed its target, or a small line about Israeli deaths.

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  55. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Stuart: that’s a very high standard.

    If it makes Morning Report on Radio NZ, I would normally consider that an indication that it’s probably widely reported.

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  56. Reid (16,457 comments) says:

    Operation Pillar of Fire has bi partisan support so, echoing TimG Oz, its hard to see how Netanyahu gains votes at the expense of his likely rival Prime Ministerial opponent by launching Pillar of Fire. I’m not saying that the January elections have absolutely no bearing on this action but you are alleging that politics is pretty much the main reason for the IDF’s action. Israeli politics is far too complex and nuanced for such a simplistic representation

    No it’s not. Whatever you or Tim want to think, the fact is the ruling party in any govt at war is the one who gets most votes out of a successful defensive action that ends in victory. It’s not rocket science.

    I don’t really care whether you think Cast Lead happened as a result of a building crescendo, the fact is it killed 1440 innocent civilians. Then precisely four years later it happens again when it could have easily happened at some other time, but never did. When I posted the data for the dates back to 1959 allegation I told everyone I wasn’t interested in exploring further because as far as I am concerned the Cast Lead and Pillar of Cloud coincidence is sufficient evidence to condemn. The naming of it as Pillar of Cloud is a thinly veiled propaganda ploy that only an extremely naive village idiot with an intellectual handicap couldn’t see through. You can’t deny it, they are doing it right now, in 2012, for election purposes. I hope people are praying that the truce holds. I am.

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  57. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    “Anyway, it’s great to see the plucky Gazans on the streets celebrating yet another victory over enormous odds.”

    sorry, im out of the loop. legal troubles..

    anyway, a victory? what did they win? do they no longer have to live in that shit hole and blow themselves up?

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  58. queenstfarmer (782 comments) says:

    Resistance to occupation is both legal and a patriotic duty

    So, according to you, Hamas actually has a legal duty to keep up its perpetual rocket barrage against indiscriminate targets in an effort to kill as many Jews as possible. This explains a lot.

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  59. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    Reid,

    Israel has responded to the attacks with several military operations in the Gaza Strip, among them Operation Rainbow (May 2004), Operation Days of Penitence (2004), the 2006 Israel-Gaza conflict, Operation Autumn Clouds (2006), Operation Hot Winter (2008),Operation Cast Lead (2009), and Operation Pillar of Defense (2012).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

    Gee, Israel must hold a LOT of elections!

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  60. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    The naming of it as Pillar of Cloud is a thinly veiled propaganda ploy that only an extremely naive village idiot with an intellectual handicap couldn’t see through.

    So by extension that’s how you think of Israeli voters.

    Lovely.

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  61. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    If I had good reason to think you were helping an enemy bomb my town, I’d happily string you from the nearest non bombed lamp post while I dodged more bombs.

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  62. kowtow (8,475 comments) says:

    queenstreetfarmer

    Abu Lucy’s comment was made in the context of the murder of those 6 Arabs,alleged to be collaborators. His remarks become even more disturbing as he justifies that violence. According to hamas apologists,shooting collaborators becomes an important aspect of resisting the occupation.

    Sick bastard.

    A lot of “collaborators” are people who don’t get on with the thugs. Score settling is what alot of it is about. In Ireland in the so called war of independence,many people were shot in lonely by ways and a notice put on them saying “spy”.There was nothing romantic or just about it.Hollywood and the school ciriculum (?) dresses these things up and then idiots go along with it.
    In Ireland there was even ethnic cleansing masquarading as “justice” in one area. All justified as fighting an illegal occupation.
    Same thing in the recent Troubles in the North,spies ,collaborators,ethnic cleansing……murder and a lonely brutal death at the hands of power mad thugs.

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  63. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Reid
    Your reply reveals your ignorance of Israeli politics. The person angling to topple Bibi is in his own deputy PM and an integral part of the government. That’s how coalitions often happen in Israel. The two most senior Cabinet members who signed off on Pillar of Fire will face off against each other in the Jan elections. So who gets the most votes out of it – Netanyahu for Likud or Barak for the Labour breakaway Independence?

    The numbers of civilian casualties in Cast Lead was tragic. How many could’ve been avoided if Hamas decided to play by the normal rules of war under the Geneva Convention which states that combatants should endeavour to conduct their military operations away from civilian populations – likely a high percentage. But measuring civilian casualties is never a basis for weighing the rightness or wrongfulness of any war since almost every war in the modern era sadly involves civilian casualties. If you used your logic then the Allies were the aggressors in WW2 because, in their liberation of Nazi occupied Europe, they killed some German civilians. Here’s a heads up about wars – you start a war by being the aggressor, you better be prepared to live with the consequences (civilian casualties). The Allies didn’t ask or even provoke Hitler into invading most of Europe. Ask any German about what they think of all the civilians the Allies killed – they’ll tell you “we started it and we had it coming”.

    You want to avoid the unnecessary civilian casualties in Gaza then stop firing rockets into Israel. Israel has no interest in Gaza whatsoever as long as its population lives in peace and conducts itself accordingly. But when you use every strategem to bring in rockets, mortars and other weapons and then use them to target civilian populations in Israel, don’t start crying when the Israelis eventually decide to punch back. You can whine all you like about the election the simple fact is that the escalation of rockets from Gaza began AFTER the election was announced. No rockets from Gaza – no retaliation from Israel. Pretty simple really.

    As for the names of the campaigns, man up. Hamas and the Palestinians all use the names of martyrs to rark up their troops – propoganda is a part of war. If you don’t want warlike propoganda then don’t provoke the war in the first place.

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  64. nasska (11,510 comments) says:

    Tom J

    If these Hamas terrorists and fascists were white and non-religious, would you support them?

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  65. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    queenstfarmer (280) Says:
    November 22nd, 2012 at 11:55 am

    Resistance to occupation is both legal and a patriotic duty

    So, according to you, Hamas actually has a legal duty to keep up its perpetual rocket barrage against indiscriminate targets in an effort to kill as many Jews as possible. This explains a lot.

    In fact I object to the rockets unless they are aimed at military targets.

    However, you ignore the reality of terror attacks by the occupying power every day in the West Bank by the IDF and the fundamentalist, immigrant colonial settlers.

    So no rockets from or within the West Bank, mainly unarmed demonstrations against belligerent occupation, yet still Palestinians kidnapped, imprisoned without charge, beaten and killed. Every day.

    So sorry, it’s clearly not about the rockets, stoopid. It’s about colonisation and genocide.

    Here’s an interesting analysis:

    http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/8461/dissecting-idf-propaganda_the-numbers-behind-the-r

    Go on, take a walk on the wild side!

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  66. Reid (16,457 comments) says:

    The numbers of civilian casualties in Cast Lead was tragic. How many could’ve been avoided if Hamas decided to play by the normal rules of war under the Geneva Convention which states that combatants should endeavour to conduct their military operations away from civilian populations – likely a high percentage.

    Possibly they made a mistake using the white phosphorous shells kia? You think maybe that was going a little too far?

    If you used your logic then the Allies were the aggressors in WW2 because, in their liberation of Nazi occupied Europe, they killed some German civilians.

    No if you use my logic you’ll recognise the plain and obvious fact that the Israeli leadership are doing precisely what the Nazis did to their ancestors in WWII: treating their neighbours like untermenschen.

    As for the names of the campaigns, man up. Hamas and the Palestinians all use the names of martyrs to rark up their troops – propoganda is a part of war. If you don’t want warlike propoganda then don’t provoke the war in the first place.

    It’s the apostasy aspect of it you don’t often find kia. That shows pure evil, daring first of all to associate yourselves with God and His protection of the people, but secondly and worse, to associate your actions with the blood sacrifice of innocent souls is pure evil. And doing it in front of the whole world and imagining no-one will notice or more particularly, having the monstrous arrogance not to care if anyone does. This is NOT A SECURITY WAR. Rockets are a military harassment not a security threat. You cannot make a credible case for it on security grounds. If it is, why do it now, precisely four years almost to the day. What was the particular security threat. A building crescendo? Why no, when you look up the numbers on wiki. So what was the security issue, if you imagine there was one?

    Gee, Israel must hold a LOT of elections!

    bhudson what were the scale of those other ones apart from the ones everyone’s heard about?

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  67. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    @Reid
    “Rockets are a military harassment not a security threat”

    Tell that to those families with loved ones killed by them.

    Your comparison with untermenschen is pathetic even for someone as fucked up as you. Another fact free brain fart. If that were so Israel would be leveling the entire place indiscriminately, which they aren’t.

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  68. Scott Chris (6,137 comments) says:

    If you treat people badly, don’t be surprised when they behave badly. Bet all kindsa bad shit happens in Gaza – and not just by the Israelis.

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  69. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    “How many could’ve been avoided if Hamas decided to play by the normal rules of war under the Geneva Convention which states that combatants should endeavour to conduct their military operations away from civilian populations”

    As Israel tightens the noose ever tighter by restricting access with so-called buffer zones, where the sentence for entering, even though within the Gaza territory, although many are killed well outside that buffer zone.

    Meanwhile, raids and killings continue apace in the West Bank, even in the absence of rockets.

    The rest of that post is a long-winded exposition of the Clayton Weatherspoon defence – “She made do it, your Honour!”

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  70. queenstfarmer (782 comments) says:

    In fact I object to the rockets unless they are aimed at military targets.

    Which suggests you do not understand, or care, what “indiscriminate” means.

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  71. Reid (16,457 comments) says:

    Tell that to those families with loved ones killed by them.

    Yes Lance there’s been around 12 of them until recently, over the last ten years. vs 1440 civilians killed in just one operation, Case Lead, 4 years ago.

    If that were so Israel would be leveling the entire place indiscriminately, which they aren’t.

    So because they only kill a thousand or so innocent civilians instead of all of them, this makes it OK? I see.

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  72. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    A statement from Ismail Haniyeh, Gaza PM:

    The Palestinian people have forged a new model in their steadfastness, patience, generosity and creativity in the face of calamities and difficulties, and proved to be people of unbending resolve able to achieve their will.

    Following the announcement of the cease-fire we emphasize the following:
    1 – We mourn all the martyrs over the past seven days of Israeli aggression and treachery, and call on the Almighty to ensure a speedy recovery for all the wounded.
    2 – We salute the heroic Palestinian people, who expressed legendary steadfastness in the face of the Israeli war machine and aggression.
    3 – We express our deep appreciation for the heroic Palestinian resistance and exchanges which showed substantial strength in defense of the Palestinian people.
    4 – We appreciate the great vigil of the masses of the Palestinian people in the occupied West Bank and elsewhere to stand alongside their brothers and their people in the Gaza Strip, and defying the occupation’s expectations and embodying the unity of our people, rallying around the aim of steadfastness and resistance.
    5 – We express our deep appreciation to the Arab Republic of Egypt and the great role played by President Mohammed Mursi and his government, and bless their efforts in order to reach this honorable termination of aggression against our people.
    6 – We appreciate the efforts made ​​by the Arab League and all regional and international parties who stood by our people at this critical stage and who were quick to come to the Gaza Strip to express the position of solidarity in support of Palestinian resolve.
    7 – We congratulate our people on this victory that proved the Palestinian peoples’ and the valiant resistance’s high resilience, creativity, and composure and showed the nation would stand by the people and that they are not alone, and we confirm that we are satisfied with this agreement.

    DPF’s contribution to peace:

    UPDATE2: Egypt has announced a truce between Israel and Hamas. This is a good thing. Now if Hamas could just drop their objective of destroying Israel, then a durable peace for land settlement could be contemplated.

    How much land, David, would Israel be satisfied with?

    Look at the map…

    http://tumeke.blogspot.co.nz/2012/11/its-israeli-election-time-lets-bomb-gaza.html

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  73. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Reid
    The bombing of Dresden, though morally wrong, did not negate the overall worth of the Allied efforts to unseat Hitler. But if the Germans never wanted to endure a Dresden then they should’ve thought of that when they invaded their neighbours and bombed London. Likewise Hamas, the vast majority of the munitions used in Cast Lead was perfectly legitimate but like most wars, some activities step over the boundary. Just like the Germans and Dresden, the best way for the residents of Gaza to avoid phosphorus shells is to not provoke the war in the first place.

    Your analogy to the Nazis falls flat on its face. Israel didn’t invade Gaza – for crying out loud it LEFT Gaza just as the Palestinians had been begging them to do.

    I’m sure Hamas’ operatives are as underwhelmed by the names the IDF chooses to give its operations as Israeli soldiers are to the aggressive and possibly even offensive (to sensitive types) names Hamas gives to its various Brigades.

    You yell THIS IS NOT A SECURITY WAR – try telling that to the million plus residents who live in southern Israel. And if you look at the numbers on Wikipedia, aside from two small spikes in March and June, the average number of rockets fired in 2012 each month was 22. Suddenly it takes off in October and explodes in November. Readers of Kiwiblog can decide whose description of the pattern of 2012 rocket attacks is more accurate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2012

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  74. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Which suggests you do not understand, or care, what “indiscriminate” means.

    Oh yes I do

    http://todayingaza.wordpress.com/2012/11/20/how-gaza-children-experience-international-day-of-the-child/

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  75. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    @Reid
    FFS you wont stay on any topic you get challenged on. Just more and more obfuscation, moral equivalents and strawmen.

    You said the Israeli’s consider the Palestinians untermenschen and therefore it doesn’t matter to them about collateral damage.
    I pointed out this is patently no true but you counter that I therefore think a thousand deaths are O.K. compared to genocide.
    This is a crap non-argument and typical of your mis-direction.

    But you and Luc, Yoza et al aren’t really interesting in a genuine debate are you?

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  76. DJP6-25 (1,387 comments) says:

    Kiwi in america 12:11 pm. You nailed it as per usual.

    cheers

    David Prosser

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  77. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Luc
    If Hamas renounced terror and recognized Israel’s right to exist, there would be no buffer zone. Israel was damned when she occupied Gaza and damned when she left. Most normal Gaza citizens want peace as do Israeli citizens. It’s Hamas who has vowed to kills Jews and destroy Israel. Egypt and Jordan each forged a lasting peace with Israel – it can be done. The raids and killings are of avowed terrorists whom the IDF have publicly identified as targets. The day they renounce terror is the day they stop being targets and the raids end.

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  78. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Reid
    Lets play your civilian casualties numbers game. The Germans killed about 25,000 British civilians in WW2, the Allies killed well over a million German citizens in its invasion of Europe and eventual defeat of Nazi Germany. Which cause was worthier? By your logic, the Allies were the bad guys and the poor Germans were victims.

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  79. Matt (227 comments) says:

    I find it fascinating how the Israel/Palestine argument polarizes people so. Really both sides are eminently understandable: The Jews (I use this term to include the period before Israel existed) quite understandably wanted a homeland, particularly after the persecution they have suffered in Europe, culminating in the Holocaust. That they should be willing and justified to fight for this homeland is imho beyond question.

    On the other hand, the existing inhabitants of Palestine have good reason to feel aggrieved to find that after fighting on the side of the British to force the Turks out of their country on the promise of independence, they were promptly shafted by Balfour et al and suddenly their country is no longer theirs. That they should be justified in fighting for their homes is also beyond question.

    Sadly I’m not sure it’s possible to reconcile the desires of the two sides without some rather extreme coercion . Obama ought to get all sides in a room and tell them to work it out in a week or he’ll solve many of his foreign policy problems by pressing a certain red button.

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  80. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    On the other hand, the existing inhabitants of Palestine have good reason to feel aggrieved to find that after fighting on the side of the British to force the Turks out of their country on the promise of independence, they were promptly shafted by Balfour et al and suddenly their country is no longer theirs.

    But that’s not even the other side of the story.

    Many of those now in Gaza actually are decended from the people who moved there to take the stuff/land from the Jews that were going to be wiped out. That backfired. Yes, many of them are also people who were forced out, because it’s sort of hard to fight a war against multiple armies when you have sympathisers in your own population.

    But here’s the thing: Jews have been forced out of every Arab country. They are welcome in Israel. Some Arabs have been forced out of Israel. They’re still in camps decades later, even the ones who fled to Arab countries.

    That to me speaks volumes about who is right in this situation.

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  81. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Matt
    If you actually read the Balfour Declaration it declares the intention of the British to use their mandate to create TWO states – a Palestinian and Jewish homeland. This was reiterated in the Peel Commission’s report that drew proposed boundaries around the various areas with the most contiguous Jewish and Arab settlements. The UN did the same in 1947 – proposed two states with the Palestinians allocated what was then known as Trans Jordan or the West Bank as it us know today – an area significantly larger than the tiny costal strip that the Jews were offered and became the 1948 boundaries of Israel. The Jewish settlors were happy to take whatever was offered – the Palestinians turned their noses up at all offered options whether it was by the British under their Mandate or the UN when they assumed it from the British. They wanted all of Palestine or nothing and took their chances in a war that the Arab leaders bragged would drive the Jews into the Mediterranean. The Palestinians have been offered a state numerous times since then on condition that they renounce terror and recognize Israel’s right to exist – offers that have not only been rejected but their stated hostility to the very existence of the Jewish state has been at the root cause of every war or indefada ever since 1948.

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  82. Reid (16,457 comments) says:

    You yell THIS IS NOT A SECURITY WAR – try telling that to the million plus residents who live in southern Israel.

    What you mean the ones who never ever get killed and occasionally somewhere someone’s house gets hit instead of an empty field? You mean those ones kia?

    Your analogy to the Nazis falls flat on its face. Israel didn’t invade Gaza – for crying out loud it LEFT Gaza just as the Palestinians had been begging them to do.

    No it doesn’t for my analogy is that of a country with all the power all the options all the timing chosing to act like a jackboooted thug and that shoe fits, like it or not, both how the Nazi’s behaved and how the Israeli leadership does behave. This is because kia, it doesn’t have to be this way, if Israel changes, so does Hamas, and you haven’t been able to argue that point ever since it was raised because that’s a fact, and you know it. Israel is the one who generates this behaviour and it doesn’t have to.

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  83. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Good comment KIA, saved me the trouble.

    I’d add to that that what we now know as Israel was pretty much abandoned proir to Zionism. George Muller (a fascinating story in itself) visited in 1878 and it was so desolate he described it as “cursed”.

    I consider that this conflict ultimatly stems from deep rooted racial hatred of Jews.

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  84. Reid (16,457 comments) says:

    I consider that this conflict ultimatly stems from deep rooted racial hatred of Jews.

    Yes scrubone, they’re victims, you see. Just helpless widdle victims, with F-16’s and tanks and heavy artillery. The poor widdle victims. They’ve got no choices at all, have they.

    Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

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  85. nasska (11,510 comments) says:

    Reid

    Why can you not simply admit defeat, learn from it & move on?

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  86. Matt (227 comments) says:

    KIA: I don’t dispute what you say. But I also doubt that T E Lawrence mentioned anything about giving part of their promised country away to foreigners when he was drumming up support for the war against the Turks.

    It was duplicitous, and they were right to feel aggrieved. I mean, how would you feel if suddenly the government decided to give everything north of Hamilton to the Chinese? Pissed off, eh?

    But we get to keep most of the country…

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  87. KevinH (1,227 comments) says:

    The Palestinians themselves are not united in their political aspirations for Gaza, Hamas won the recent election with a large majority but nevertheless differences of opinion exist which in turn encourages activists to swap sides to advance their political aspirations by supplying Israel with intelligence on the leadership and location of Hamas leaders. Israel takes that information and uses it to assassinate those leaders which Israel has been very effective at doing over many years.

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  88. Reid (16,457 comments) says:

    Why can you not simply admit defeat, learn from it & move on?

    Because it hasn’t happened yet nasska. If you think it has then where? The closest effort is bhudson’s at 12:57 but I’m afraid Cast Lead and Pillar of Cloud are in their own, exclusive class because of their massive scales, relative to all the rest of the ones that no-one’s ever heard of that bhudson cites.

    I’m afraid apart from bhudson, none of you have offered facts but instead merely expressed emotive plaintive support for people who murder babies to get themselves re-elected. You can’t deny the timing. You can’t deny the consistency of the rockets in the intervening four years. You can’t deny the propaganda element behind the naming. You can obfuscate by going outside those four years but who cares. I told everyone yesterday and today I’m only talking personally, about the four year period and the two amazing coincidences and those aren’t opinion those are facts. And the only feedback I’ve had so far is bleats that you don’t agree, but no-one has given any facts as to why this thesis is wrong.

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  89. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Lance is right Reid – when you get smoked you move on and bluster. I note you still cling to the ‘Pillar of Fire because Bibi wants to be re-elected’ meme despite the reality of the current governing coalition being pointed out to you.

    Let me ask the WW2 question again Reid and this time you can answer. The Nazis killed 25,000 British civilians and the British killed 1 million German civlians in their respective bombing campaigns. Whose cause was the right cause?

    Israel is armed to the teeth for a reason. 4 times in its history its Arab neighbours have plotted to destroy Israel – its military weapons are as much a deterrent. Aside from the Hamas terror leaders who are open game 24/7, the residents of Gaza will never have to endure Israeli military incursions if the rocket fire stops – it really is that simple. Furthermore, Gaza civilians would be at minimal risk in the event of military hostilities if Hamas’ fighters would obey the rules of war and conduct their operations away from known civilian areas. Hamas does the opposite and deliberately places its weapons caches and rocket launching sites in schools, hospitals and apartment buildings virtually GUARANTEEING civilian collateral damage despite the IDFs best efforts. Your equating the Israeli with the Nazis is the last refuge of scoundrels whose arguments are failing – the so called Godwin rule. Israel has free and fair elections, a free press, freedom of association for trade unions, accepts gays and women as equals, allows the arts to thrive, has a robust and independent judiciary, treats the Israeli Arabs in its borders as equals, allows freedom of worship for non Jews and allows protests against whoever is in power. Name just ONE of those freedoms that Hamas or Hitler’s Germany allowed/allows?

    What changes are you suggesting Israel makes that will stop Palestinian rockets? What like move out of areas they occupied after the 6 Day war? They left the Sinai and gave it to the Egyptians and signed a peace agreement and guess what that worked because the Egyptians no longer desire to destroy Israel and recognize its right to exist. So Israel leaves Gaza to the Palestinians hoping for the same outcome – the reward – 10,000 rockets aimed at Israeli cities and towns. Moving out of the West Bank would result in the same outcome. But you know what in 2000 even the West Bank was offered to Arafat minus a few small suburbs in Jerusalem and it wasnt enough. He chose another war with Israel over peace. So what more are you suggesting that Israel offer to appease the Palestinians? Unilateral surrender and just move out and go back to: Poland? Russia? Germany? America? Is that your solution because thats pretty much Hamas and Hezbollah’s bottom line. Oh it gets watered down as “the right of return” which is code for Israel’s demographic suicide. Get real mate. Israel’s leaders operate in the real world of who they are dealing with not some make believe PR spun version of Hamas that the BBC and TVNZ feed up to its viewers daily.

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  90. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    @KIA

    I am a little slow I know.
    But I must conclude Reid is a troll and a waste of time countering.

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  91. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    @Matt
    Maybe not north of Hamilton, but what about Hamilton?
    Nobody would miss it anyway ;-)

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  92. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    “but no-one has given any facts as to why this thesis is wrong” – are you thick or something. The pattern of rocket attacks is laid out in Wikipedia for all to read. It shows a steady low level of attacks until October 2012 specifically the mid to later part of October and then an even more massive escalation in November all AFTER the Israeli cabinet announces the election. Are you inferring that somehow the ruling coalition in merely announcing the election had some role to play in the massive escalation of Palestinian rockets from Gaza? Is that what you think? If not then what caused the number of rockets each day to more than quadruple? Is it like some Arab dog whistle we dont know about.

    Then we have the claim that the government of the day will benefit from Operation Pillar of Fire. So in January the two main contenders to lead Israel in the elections are: Benjamin Netanyahu – current PM and leader of Likud and Ehud Barak – a former PM, currently DEPUTY PM AND DEFENCE MINISTER in the current coalition government and leader of Independent who signed off on Pillar of Fire BEFORE Bibi did. Both men are united on this operation. Tell us which party and party leader benefits from Pillar of Fire because they both cant – its a zero sum game. Are you that ignorant of Israeli politics?

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  93. Reid (16,457 comments) says:

    I note you still cling to the ‘Pillar of Fire because Bibi wants to be re-elected’ meme despite the reality of the current governing coalition being pointed out to you.

    I addressed that above: the governing party gets more votes: always. What about that is changed by anything to do with the composition of the coalition? Isn’t Bibi the PM? Isn’t Bibi in Likud and Likud is one of the ruling parties? You’re obfuscating kia by trying to pretend a coalition changes the principle which it doesn’t but you’re trying to pretend it does. So I have answered it, directly.

    The Nazis killed 25,000 British civilians and the British killed 1 million German civlians in their respective bombing campaigns. Whose cause was the right cause?

    What does this have to do with the 2012 Israeli elections where Bibi is killing babies to get himself re-elected? Are you upset because I compared Israel to the Nazis? Tell me Israel does not have all the options, like the Nazis, all the power, like the Nazis, all the timing, like the Nazis, and doesn’t act like the Nazis. When it’s not necessary to act like that.

    Israel is armed to the teeth for a reason.

    blah blah. This whole para is totally irrelevant to what I’m saying and you know it. As I have explained, Israel’s security would INCREASE not decrease because as I told everyone three days ago, THIS IS NOT ABOUT DROPPING THE BIG STICK IN ANY WAY ITS ABOUT NOT WIELDING IT SO BRUTALLY, INDISCRIMINATELY AND CYNICALLY. THAT’S WHAT IT’S ABOUT SO WHY THE FUCK GO ON ABOUT DROPPING THE BIG STICK. THAT IS NOT REPEAT NOT REPEAT NOT WHAT I HAVE EVER SAID ON THIS TOPIC. WHAT THE FUCK ABOUT THAT DOESN’T ANYONE UNDERSTAND?

    What changes are you suggesting Israel makes that will stop Palestinian rockets?

    I told everyone three days ago. Use snipers, not artillery rounds. If you claim to be surgical, then use the technology which they have, to really truly be surgical.

    Get real mate.

    And you mate. Israel as I keep saying is the party in this who has all the power, all the options, all the ability to manage this conflict in any fucking way it wants to. And you people for some reason think that a party with all the options including not acting like a brutal thug, is correct when they act like a brutal thug. This is fucked in the head territory, it really is. If any other country in the world acted like this all the time, you’d all be down on them like a ton of bricks. And you all know it.

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  94. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Lance – he’s into hands over his ears – “Im not listening” mode. Sad really.

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  95. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Yep use snipers rather than rockets – thats the ticket. That will stop all those rocket attacks dead in its tracks. We’re getting into Tui billboard territory now.

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  96. nasska (11,510 comments) says:

    Reid

    Expanding on KIA’s 12.44 comment…..

    From Wikipedia…..” As of November 2012, over 1,947 rockets had been launched at Israel from Gaza since January 2012″.

    This contrasts with 8600, in total from 2001 to 2009. Also noteworthy is that in the lead up to the 2009 elections a ceasefire held but Hamas & other terrorist groups used the opportunity to build up ordinance smuggled in through tunnels. The pre election Israeli offensive you constantly refer to was aimed at closing down these routes.

    It would seem that the Palestinians have ramped up their offensive this year. Why do you think they would do that? A novel form of population control? Photo opportunities for the left wing MSM? A lemming like desire for mass suicide?

    Also the uncontested Israeli casualty figures (Wikipedia) 2001/09 is 28 deaths plus several hundred injuries. I doubt that you would have quite so much sympathy with the goat molesters if a member of your family was included in these “insignificant” casualties.

    So many questions but you parrot the propaganda of Muslim cuddlers rather than step back & take an overview.

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  97. Reid (16,457 comments) says:

    The pattern of rocket attacks is laid out in Wikipedia for all to read.

    This is my post from 2 days ago on that:

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/11/pallywood_returns_to_gaza.html#comment-1049206
    For those who emotionally hallucinate that poor widdle Iswael is only defending herself, here’s the wiki data on Hamas wocket attacks. Over 800 this year, 680 in 2011 and 569 rockets and 289 mortars in 2010.

    So in 2 days the number on Wiki for 2012 has increased from 800 to 1,947 – tell me that’s not propaganda kia. Tell me that’s not propaganda. Unfortunately I didn’t take a screen shot to verify my 800 count, I didn’t know I should have. But you go and add up the monthlies

    So no kia, those wiki sites weren’t showing a sharp increase 2 days ago. I’ll have to remember that propaganda trick in 4 years time when we have this same debate and take a screen shot before the zionists change the figures.

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  98. Griff (7,715 comments) says:

    Nailed by KIA

    Israel has free and fair elections, a free press, freedom of association for trade unions, accepts gays and women as equals, allows the arts to thrive, has a robust and independent judiciary, treats the Israeli Arabs in its borders as equals, allows freedom of worship for non Jews and allows protests against whoever is in power

    Why does the left seek to destroy modern free society and impose backward tribal ones.?

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  99. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Check the footnotes Reid – links to the actual reported attacks – conspiracy theories are so unbecoming. Are you a 9/11 Truther and Grassy knoll believer as well?

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  100. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Dear oh dear, the canards have been flying since I had to get busy elsewhere. KIA in fine fettle, I see, deluging us with the Monckton Method – begin with a lie and build on that with more lies, and throw in a few wild distortions just for fun. i don’t blame KIA for that, willful self-delusion is the only way Zionists can look at themselves in the mirror and claim to have some vestige of humanity.

    So one step at a time:

    ,blockquote>kiwi in america (1,798) Says:
    November 22nd, 2012 at 11:20 am

    Luc
    The Israelis are not the occupiers of Gaza – they left in 2005.

    Mixing fact with fiction is a KIA specialty. Yes, the permanent military occupation ended, but what did not end was Israel’s effective control over the strip, already small and shrinking ever since as Israel’s army imposes tighter and tighter territorial restrictions on the movements of the people of Gaza.

    So the legal position, as decided by the United nations, which, through the Security Council is the supreme authority on international law, is that the United Nations continues to refer to the West Bank and Gaza as the occupied Palestinian Territories (oPT)

    http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/1ce874ab1832a53e852570bb006dfaf6/a51d0bfda2ba835585257a680049b333?OpenDocument

    You may not like it, and it may not suit what you want to believe, and you are entitled to your opinion, but your own facts.

    Jabari has been on the IDF’s ‘wanted’ list for years and that wasn’t a state secret. By that I mean you show your face in public we will kill you. Hiding behind a truce is a factuous defence.

    This is typical of the carelessness with which Israel breaks truces. This was so well planned that immediately following the murder of Jabari Israel twittered the start of Operation Pillars of Clouds.

    Why do the Palestinians persist in breaking all the rules of war and hide their weapons and launch sites in mosques, schools, hospitals and near civilian apartment buildings?

    Where do you suggest, KIA? If you check the map in the link, you will see the extent of Israeli control over Gaza, but maybe with your superior strategic skills you can point out a safe hiding place away from any civilian population and remain being a difficult target.

    The fact is that Gaza is extremely densely populated so this is an accusation that borders on the facile.

    And as far as breaking the rules of war are concerned, that is not even a case of the pot calling…Israel’s flouting of international law and the impunity conferred on it by its great protector is so egregious that any comparison with the rag tag band of Hamas et al is simply irrelevant.

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  101. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    You want to avoid the unnecessary civilian casualties in Gaza then stop firing rockets into Israel

    1. This begs the question, of course, of what are <b.necessary civilian casualties. I suspect the answer is any one who happens to be Palestinian.

    2. The West Bank does not fire rockets but remains occupied, under siege from both the IDF and its irregulars (settlers) with daily reports of kidnappings, murders, land theft, crop destruction, house demolition, checkpoints, ad hoc restrictions…the daily diet of life under belligerent occupation. This is the fate you wish for Gazans, too?

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  102. Reid (16,457 comments) says:

    Check the footnotes Reid – links to the actual reported attacks – conspiracy theories are so unbecoming.

    Check my post kia. Those 2012 figures I put down in that post were accurate 2 days ago. Now they’ve doubled on the wiki site. In 2 days. Tell me that’s not propaganda.

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  103. nasska (11,510 comments) says:

    ….”you can point out a safe hiding place away from any civilian population and remain being a difficult target. “…..

    But why would they want to hide Luc? Afterall they have been promised about 72 virgins each for martyrdom & according to you conditions are so bad in Gaza that life isn’t worth living.

    So why not stand out the open with a neon sign & radar reflectors rather than hiding under the skirts of their women & their children. The Israelis miss sometimes anyway.

    Unless those who you defend so vigorously are just a snivelling pack of cowardly arseholes.

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  104. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    treats the Israeli Arabs in its borders as equals

    More lies.

    Read “The Forgotten Palestinians” by Ilan Pappe and

    http://imeu.net/news/article0021536.shtml

    is a comprehensive report on the obstacles facing Israeli-Arabs (who are often accused of being a Fifth Column)

    I urge people to take time out to read these items as serial propagandists such as KIA must be held to account.

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  105. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    Luc writes
    “serial propagandists such as KIA must be held to account.”

    Brahahahahahahahahahah

    Luc’s such a card sometimes. Pot calling kettle……..

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  106. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    You may not like it, and it may not suit what you want to believe, and you are entitled to your opinion, but your own facts.

    That the UN still calls Gaza something that it’s not, doesn’t change the facts either.

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  107. nasska (11,510 comments) says:

    You mean Ilan Pappe the traitor. The one referred to thus, ” I am not being viewed as a threat to the Israeli society but my people think that I am either insane or my views are irrelevant. Many Israelis also believe that I am working as a mercenary for the Arabs”.

    Another work of fiction as a reference?

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  108. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Luc and Reid – off to a movie – you’ll keep until later

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  109. Matt (227 comments) says:

    KIA: Bring back some popcorn for the bemused spectators ;-)

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  110. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    For those who emotionally hallucinate that poor widdle Iswael is only defending herself, here’s the wiki data on Hamas wocket attacks. Over 800 this year, 680 in 2011 and 569 rockets and 289 mortars in 2010.

    “Emotionally hallucinate”???? WTF???

    For the record, the real numbers of rocket attacks by the Hamas terrorists are:

    Number of rockets fired by the Hamas terrorists against Israel last year (2011): 627
    Number of rockets fired by the Hamas terrorists against Israel this year: (2012)1697
    Number of rockets fired by the Hamas terrorists against Israel since Nov 14 2012: 933

    933 IN JUST 8 DAYS!
    DOH!

    To me, the most surprising thing is that Israel has (to date) resisted the temptation (under the most extreme provocation) to hop over the fence and lance the festering boil called Hamas once and for all.

    Because no thinking person could blame Israel if that’s exactly what they did! 8O

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  111. Reid (16,457 comments) says:

    933 IN JUST 8 DAYS!
    DOH!

    So what, Elaycee? The argument is before the attacks started, the numbers were consistent, as per the numbers you quoted from my post 2 days ago, which were the numbers, before updates on wiki, between then and now.

    And we’re talking, der, about what was going on between Cast Lead and Pillar of Cloud which wiki now calls Pillar of Defense – more propaganda – not after Pillar of Cloud started because fucking d’oh, all bets come off then, don’t they. Der. So take away the ones fired after they started and you get 858 in 2010, 680 in 2011 and 800 up to when it started. That proves my point. Der.

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  112. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Just a word on Israel’s electoral policies.

    Sure, Arabs get representation but although they are about 15%% of the population, they get no real power. The odd bone of a ministerial post is thrown but, in reality, it’s a similar position to that with which we kept Maori under control for years and years – and to some extent, still are.

    But the wider issue is this: Israel is in full control of the two areas of the former Palestine known as the West Bank (Judea and Samaria to the myth gatherers) and Gaza. Israel’s election preclude these two areas from voting in the elections of those who fully control them.

    Therefore, either Israel’s election process is deeply flawed and, as committed as Israel is to freedom and inclusive politics, will soon be reformed, or Israel is a de facto apartheid state.

    Which do the punters prefer?

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  113. nasska (11,510 comments) says:

    Reid

    What would you suppose is an acceptable rockets per day figure? If we take 14 Nov as the kick off date for ‘Pillar of Cloud’ that is 764 attacks for 319 days of 2012 = 2.4/day as provocation.

    At what point, in your opinion, is Israel allowed to say ‘enoughs enough’ & retaliate? Does 2.3 indicate that it’s time to send them a letter asking them nicely to stop or do you think that it should be closer to 5/day?

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  114. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    LAC

    Israel agreed to a truce, broke it by murdering their Palestinian contact, and immediately launched a massive pre-planned attack on a defenceless population with no place to hide.

    If you were one of them, what would you do?

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  115. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    @ AG:

    http://www.theage.com.au/world/gazas-motorcycle-lynch-mob-spies-executed-corpse-dragged-through-streets-20121121-29or1.html
    http://www.smh.com.au/world/gazas-motorcycle-lynch-mob-spies-executed-corpse-dragged-through-streets-20121121-29or1.html
    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/gazas-motorcycle-lynch-mob-spies-executed-corpse-dragged-through-streets-20121121-29or1.html

    Notice that three of your links are effectively to the same article? Notice also how apart from the domain names, the link urls are identical? (/world/gazas-motorcycle-lynch-mob-spies-executed-corpse-dragged-through-streets-20121121-29or1.html)

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  116. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    Read “The Forgotten Palestinians” by Ilan Pappe and

    Luc, why do you only quote from ideologically biased journalists?

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  117. queenstfarmer (782 comments) says:

    So the legal position, as decided by the United nations, which, through the Security Council is the supreme authority on international law…

    I know you are trying your best to justify Hamas’ actions, but that is simply wrong.

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  118. Reid (16,457 comments) says:

    What would you suppose is an acceptable rockets per day figure?

    nasska we keep covering the same ground. My point has never been does Israel have a right to retaliate. I’ve never said it didn’t. I’ve said the timing is too cute to be coincidental and remember, the timing is under Israel’s complete and total control. And the timing has happened twice, in a row. Two absolutely massive operations, twice in a row.

    That’s the point, the only point. For it means and utterly proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that this has nothing to do with security and after all, remember what’s been mostly happening over the last four years is rockets falling into fields with the odd home owner complaining about the one that hit his house and the very occasional person being killed. Those are facts. That’s what’s been happening. And now you justify this response on the basis of the constant tewwible bawwage of wockets?

    If you allege its about security then pray tell what precisely is militarily threatening about the rocket attacks as conducted over the last four years? What precise military threat has this engendered. Because if you say Isweal’s security is being thweatened, then in the real world, this means she is under military threat, and these wockets don’t do it, both in the patterns they were being fired before this started and the current patterns. So what if a few civilians get killed? Apart from the human tragedy to the immediate family, that’s not a military threat to the State of Israel and that’s what you have to prove if you wish to argue this attack is for security purposes.

    One thing that strikes me in this is how some of you treat a single Israeli death as the biggest twagedy in the whole wide world and yet a whole Palestinian family can be wiped out and all you can complain about is the biased nature of the ensuing media coverage. There’s an extraordinary blind spot in the western psyche that obviates people’s rational perspective on Israel. As I said at the start, if this was a tinpot African dictator who was doing this to a neighbouring tribe and have been doing this stuff all the time over decades, the western world would be up in arms. But not when it’s Israel. Then it’s special.

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  119. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    You know a commenter has a shaky position when they resort to making fun of speech impediments….

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  120. Scott (1,800 comments) says:

    Kiwi in America (to Reid)- “are you a 9/11 truther?”

    Well actually KIA, he is a 9/11 truther.

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  121. nasska (11,510 comments) says:

    Reid

    1) ….”Two absolutely massive operations, twice in a row.”….

    I don’t want to bore everyone to tears repeating what I’ve already covered so would you please have another look at my 2.34pm about the tunnels.

    2) The Hamas probably don’t, at least at this stage & level, pose a large military threat. They do however breach Israel’s sovereign right to defend its borders & the safety of its citizens. The 28 killed & hundreds injured (up to 2009) that you glibly write off as insignificant are friends & relations of other Israelis who vote so perhaps it is not astonishing that a degree of political involvement is guaranteed. If you were forced to spend half your waking life in a bomb shelter for no better reason than some arseholes hated your fellow people it would probably influence the way you vote. So yes, it’s political….in a democracy nearly everything is.

    Your amazement that some care more for 8 million Jews as opposed to the 400 odd million Muslims who wish to kill them is a little hard to accept. Suffice to say that most people identify with those who share similar lifestyles & values. Thus it seems perfectly reasonable that the average Westerner would be an Israeli sympathiser.

    When you get down to tin tacks you have the choice of supporting a peaceful, democratic, secular, independent Israel or you can support a genocide-crazy, facist, clerical ruled gang of jihadists sucking weapons & money from Iranian Islamists & conning our simple, socialist MSM.

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  122. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    Jesus wept…. I had to read this twice because I couldn’t believe anyone could actually make this shit up…

    …what precisely is militarily threatening about the rocket attacks as conducted over the last four years? What precise military threat has this engendered….

    Whaaaaat? They are bloody rockets being fired by a bunch of terrorists into the sovereign state of Israel. And no surprise: Israel retaliated. And no thinking person can blame them – if some terrorists lobbed ordnance over my fence into my place and hurt my people, I’d make bloody sure there was no prospect of action replay…

    You poor bugger. Next thing, you’ll be trying to rewrite history re 9/11…

    Oh, oh…. 8O

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  123. questions (207 comments) says:

    “Now if Hamas could just drop their objective of destroying Israel, then a durable peace for land settlement could be contemplated.”

    Forget objectives, Israel could start by stopping destroying Palestine.

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  124. Reid (16,457 comments) says:

    I don’t want to bore everyone to tears repeating what I’ve already covered so would you please have another look at my 2.34pm about the tunnels.

    Which says:

    As of November 2012, over 1,947 rockets had been launched at Israel from Gaza since January 2012″

    Yes but as of October in fact as of 2 days ago nasska, the same site said there were 800 since January 2012. See my 2:39. And that’s what it said when I posted that 2 days ago. I didn’t miscount and I didn’t lie. In 2 days, it’s gone from 800 to 1,947. Gee. Go figure. What do you think is happening?

    The Hamas probably don’t, at least at this stage & level, pose a large military threat. They do however breach Israel’s sovereign right to defend its borders & the safety of its citizens.

    Yeah yeah bleat bleat. But what about the 1440 civilians killed in Cast Lead alone 4 years ago? Do they count? See if 1440 Israeli civilians had been killed back then as well as 1440 Palestinian civilians then I wouldn’t adopt the position I always have, on Israel, since this blog started. But it’s not, is it. No, it never is. And since Israel has all the power and all the options, IT, Israel, alone gets to decide whether to retaliate with a sniper bullet or an artillery round. And guess what it chooses, every single time, when it doesn’t have to. See, as a military tactician, I would be sniping away all the time at the rocket teams. I’d be using stealth helicopters as platforms to host sniping teams deep into enemy territory at night, and take those bastards out, using the technology at my fingertips and I’d have been doing that every single night since Cast Lead stopped, if I was Bibi. But instead nothing like that happens, does it. No. How come?

    When you get down to tin tacks you have the choice of supporting a peaceful, democratic, secular, independent Israel or you can support a genocide-crazy, facist, clerical ruled gang of jihadists sucking weapons & money from Iranian Islamists & conning our simple, socialist MSM.

    As I stated when this debate started my policies if adopted would improve security for Israel not reduce it and therefore I do claim to be a supporter of Israel and I condemn all of you who disagree with that because you’re wrong. If Israel did what I say it should it would be safer and that’s unarguable. Why do you think the British manage civilian populations in a way that’s the opposite of the Israeli approach? They do don’t they. And we all know that’s the best way to manage them.

    It’s interesting isn’t it that many of the tactics the US used in Abu Gharrib come from Israeli tactics like those hoods we all saw, which are smeared with excrement on the inside. So the US and Israel goes increasingly down one way and the UK and us have always been down another way, population management style-wise. And yet you still grimly cling to your poor widdle Iswael hallucination.

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  125. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    @queenstfarmer

    I know you are trying your best to justify Hamas’ actions, but that is simply wrong.

    And your argument is eloquent in its absence.

    What I was pointing out was the falsity of the canard that Gaza is not under Israeli occupation. The UNSC and the ICJ both beg to differ.

    And if your contention is that the UNSC is not the supreme legal authority in international law – in setting it, that is – who is?

    The Knesset?

    Why don’t you come out from behind your tinted glass and make an argument instead of throwing crap and hoping some will stick?

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  126. Reid (16,457 comments) says:

    Whaaaaat? They are bloody rockets being fired by a bunch of terrorists into the sovereign state of Israel. And no surprise: Israel retaliated. And no thinking person can blame them – if some terrorists lobbed ordnance over my fence into my place and hurt my people, I’d make bloody sure there was no prospect of action replay…

    Elaycee a “military threat” doesn’t arise even if a million civilians are killed. A “military threat” arises when a rocket kills a soldier or a piece of military infrastructure or equipment. Not before.

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  127. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    @nasska

    When you get down to tin tacks you have the choice of supporting a peaceful, democratic, secular, independent Israel or you can support a genocide-crazy, facist, clerical ruled gang of jihadists sucking weapons & money from Iranian Islamists & conning our simple, socialist MSM.

    Wrong in every, but every respect with one honourable exception, but all praise to Iran for supporting a just cause.

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  128. nasska (11,510 comments) says:

    Luc

    I’d wager that you look into a mirror when you eat dinner…..it would be logical since everything you think & type is arse about face.

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  129. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    A “military threat” arises when a rocket kills a soldier or a piece of military infrastructure or equipment. Not before.

    Now you’re just trolling. No one is dumb enough to think you actually believe that.

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  130. Yoza (1,873 comments) says:

    What I don’t get is the expectation that the legitimacy of the State of Israel should be recognised when it is perpetually expanding its borders through its support of the ever growing illegal settlements in the West Bank.

    Rockets will cease to falling on Israel when Israelis belief in their special status as the regional master race ceases to be a subject of direct US sponsorship. No sane person believes Hamas is responsible for children being killed and mutilated by Israeli ‘surgical’ strikes, least of all the vast majority of people throughout the Middle East. Most people throughout the Middle East, and a growing number around the world, believe the US and it European flunkies share a great deal of responsibility for the civilian massacres Israel regularly perpetuates.

    When the US ordered white South Africa to allow the indigenous population there to participate meaningfully in the democratic process the white supremacists jumped out of the way; the Indonesian generals swore they would never leave East Timor, the US ordered them out and they were gone within a couple of weeks. As with South Africa and East Timor, Israel will only respond to orders from the US godfather. I suspect the hostilities ceased because Obama ordered it and the Israelis know better than to continue to piss off their only hope of maintaining a viable state.

    Israel never withdrew from Gaza, it controls the borders, seaports and airspace; It enforces that control ruthlessly, denying Palestinians anything resembling a humane environment. That the Palestinians continue to resist is a tribute to their bravery, I really have nothing but admiration for the heroic efforts these people continue to display in the face of one of the ugliest acts of white supremacy happening today.

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  131. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Let me take you though this one by one, nasska.

    Referencing Israel:

    “Peaceful”

    Pre-statehood, ethnic cleansing operations targeting the indigenous population had already begun in earnest. Then, in short order, it invaded land designated as being for Palestinian political control (Note: UNGA181 never called for any population movement) and conducted covert operations in neighbouring states to scare Jews into fleeing to the ‘safety’ of israel, started the war of 1967, was responsible for the launch of the 1973 war by turning down generous peace terms with Egypt (which it subsequently accepted in full), invaded and/or attacked Lebanon multiple times, including a 20 year brutal occupation, continued similarly brutal occupations of the West Bank and Gaza, bombed Sudan…I’m doing this by memory, I must have missed a few, sorry. ‘Peaceful’ my beautiful arse!

    “Democratic”

    Only if you accept tyranny of the majority as democratic. Certain citizens in Israel’s outer suburbs – WB and Gaza – don’t get to vote.

    “Secular”

    Which part of “Jewish State” is the secular bit?

    “Independent”

    Dependent on the USA, the world’s leading rogue state, according to Chomsky.

    Now the other side. I will assume we are talking Hamas:

    “genocide-crazy”

    No, their opposition is only to Jews that invaded and colonised Palestine. Let’s forgive heat-of-the-moment language and look at capability. There is no capability of genocide, except in the reverse direction. That’s is where the danger of genocide lies.

    “facist”

    Look up Godwin’s law.

    “Clerical ruled gang of jihadists”

    Under Islam, the head clerics are the deciders. That is simply politics by another means. If by ‘Jihadist’ you mean wanting to promote islam at any cost, you are plainly wrong in the case of Hamas, which isn’t to say that they wouldn’t praise their religion as the one true way – but they are hardly alone in that, my son, God bless.

    “sucking weapons & money from Iranian Islamists”

    You mean, thank you very much for your kind donations?

    “conning our simple, socialist MSM.”

    That’s strange, my view of the scum right winger sucking MSM is the polar opposite of yours. My favourite beef of the last few days is those facist pricks at RNZ insisting on prefacing every reference to Hamas in their new bulletins with the word “Islamist”. On it’s own, not a sin except that they never refer to “Zionist Israel” or “Occupying Israel” or “Coloniser Israel” or even “Baby killer Israel.”

    Tell me where I’m wrong, nasska!

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  132. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    Yoda:

    That the Palestinians continue to resist is a tribute to their bravery, I really have nothing but admiration for the heroic efforts these people continue to display in the face of one of the ugliest acts of white supremacy happening today.

    Oh dear…. this has to be Yoda’s application for lifetime membership of the Morons Club.

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  133. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    Reid:

    Elaycee a “military threat” doesn’t arise even if a million civilians are killed. A “military threat” arises when a rocket kills a soldier or a piece of military infrastructure or equipment. Not before.

    Oh dear…. so now you link the term ‘military threat’ to the inability of the Hamas terrorists to hit their intended targets?

    Is that really you, Reid? Has someone else taken over your keyboard? I can expect such nonsense from Luc, but normally your comments make sense.

    What’s happened? :(

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  134. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Hamas has stated one of its aims is to wipe Israel off the map using violence

    Paul states one of his aims is to wipe the Yoza’s of this world off the map using violence

    Now, one of these statements is defended here by people who use the freedoms we have in this country to defend such shit- bearing in mind they would not be allowed to say in Gaza that “Hamas are a murdering bunch of terrorists”. Because if they did they would be taken out the back and or front and shot

    The second statement is enough to maybe get me demerits here and or arrested.

    My second statement regards ridding the planet of Yoza types is just not a very nice thing for anyone to say about anyone no matter how much you disagree with there stance, but Yoza types defend it being said about a country containing millions of people

    What troubles me is that the same people who will defend terrorists are the same that will run off to the coppers if it is suggested we rid the world of Yoza types. Again bearing in mind they can only run off to the coppers in this world they live in because of our freedoms, freedoms the people of Gaza wil never have even if the state of Israel disappered tomorrow, freedoms that the people of any muslim state do not have.

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  135. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Paul, the fact that you are still permitted to post after your perverted postings of the last few days is a true indictment on David Farrar.

    It’s not demerits you need, it’s a spell in solitary with a Muslim guard to read verses of the Koran to you every day – in Arabic!

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  136. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    PEB
    I’m confused. Are you standing by your statement yesterday about wanting Gaza flattened, people and all?

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  137. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    I’m perverted Luc, coming from you thats a compliment.

    You and your beliefs have been systematically taken apart over the last two days. When ever a hard question has been asked you move on to another area.

    We have the freedoms here for you to believe in anything you want and to be able state those beliefs publically, you are foolish enough to believe that Hamas would grant you the same freedom.

    The one person I really want to meet is John Pilger, I want to meet John Pilger and ask him,:

    ” why at the fall of Saigon were you cramming yourself into a US helicopter to escape from the North Vietnamese? why when you had spent the entire war putting the shit into the people who owned the machine that was going to save your scrawny arse.?

    John, why didn’t you stay and greet the conquering heros rather than fuck off to freedom? “

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  138. nasska (11,510 comments) says:

    Luc

    Israel was established by groups of displaced people. There was early friction, especially from the Jordanians carefully moved into Palestine to make up the numbers. Since then the Israelis have been threatened & been the target of near constant guerilla action.

    You insist that that the ‘original’ inhabitants of the West Bank & Gaza are not Israelis so why would they want to participate in Israeli elections?

    Israel is secular in that not all citizens are religious…..some are Muslim but are not in any way persecuted for their faith. Secular stands.

    Fascism relates to the state of being militarist & nationalistic….tell me please, how this doesn’t accurately describe the psyche of Palestinians.

    I’m not certain that even Chomsky believes what Chomsky writes so I’ll ignore that one.

    Re Hamas: Why should we”forgive heat-of-the-moment language and look at capability.” They have demonstrated at every turn their intentions to follow up rhetoric with action. The rockets which caused the present problems didn’t fire themselves across the border.

    “Clerical ruled gang of jihadists”…..About the only thing that you & I approach agreement on is that religion is a load of bollocks….let’s not spoil it.

    The western MSM is totally socialist in nature…..they are wittingly or innocently beavering away doing everything & anything in their power to destroy Western civilisation.

    ….”Tell me where I’m wrong, nasska!”….. only the bit between “Let me take you…” & “….I’m wrong, nasska!”

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  139. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    MM

    it takes fuck all to confuse you, now stop being a smug little shit, Hamas needs to be annilated , more so for the palistinains than Israel, Israel can and will survive even if Hamas does, but Palistinians will never be free while they have terrorists controllingn them

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  140. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    What I don’t get is the expectation that the legitimacy of the State of Israel should be recognised when it is perpetually expanding its borders through its support of the ever growing illegal settlements in the West Bank.

    Funnily enough though, the West Bank Palestinians are not firing rockets at Israel…..

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  141. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    Don’t be a cock Luc. Israel isn’t peaceful. Automatic conscription upon reaching maturity etct etc. Women included.
    It’s very survival depends upon pre-emptive strives. They’d get wiped off the map, else.
    Boo hoo fuckin hoodly hoo. The rest of your shite is moralizing bullshit which ignores geography and population. And anyone that refers to Chomsky is a double cock. He’s worth referencing for language but not for left wing wankerism.

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  142. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    The western MSM is totally socialist in nature

    Not a view I have ever had of Rupert Murdoch, but let’s not let fact get in the way of fondly held beliefs, shall we?

    You take the KIA/IDF/David Farrar line of continually diminishing Palestinians as a people. It’s quite disgusting.

    PEB

    Is that the best you can do? I spend nearly all my spare time here for two days giving fact based analysis and commentary and you say I don’t answer peeps?

    Fuck, even I’m sick of my own typing!

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  143. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    @ Luc 317pm
    You are the one who mixes fact and fiction. Regardless of what some obscure ruling by the UN says, Gaza is not part of Israel and is not controlled by Israel. The UN hates Israel and its institutions are hopelessly biased against Israel so to treat the UN as some neutral arbiter on this subject is to whistle Dixie in the dark.

    Let’s see who runs and controls what in Gaza:
    The Government Hamas
    The police Hamas
    The militias Hamas, Islamic Jihad and sundry others
    Schools Hamas
    Hospitals Hamas
    Buil/repair roads Hamas
    Currency Mostly Egyptian pound no longer the skekel
    Banks Bank of Palestine/Palestine Islamic Bank – Israeli banks all gone

    Does that sound like a territory Israel controls? Because of the propensity of Hamas to infiltrate rockets and mortars into Gaza then yes Israel has a pretty tight cordon around Gaza but so do the Egyptians – hmm wonder why the Egyptians see the need to seal THEIR border with Gaza. When there is relative peace and few to no rockets fired or other terrorist activities, the border restrictions are lightened and the flow of tradable goods increases. When Hamas fires rockets into Israel or terrorist activities increase then the restrictions are tightened – thus the extent of the restrictions you lament are entirely in the hands of the Palestinians.

    Oh and the glasshouses that grew large amounts of fruit and vegetables for local consumption built by the Israeli settlers and gifted to the residents of Gaza for free, what happened to them? That’s right Hamas took them over and destroyed them. I guess even the Israeli glass must have cooties or something.

    The death of Jabari is independent of any truce. When someone is as wanted as he is – the bounty survives through peace and war. The IDF made its intentions pretty crystal clear. Jabari made his bed as a terrorist and he reaped the consequence. You can quibble over the timing of when he was killed but it would come as no surprise to anyone in the region that he was high on a kill list.

    Next you excuse the hiding of rockets in schools and apartment buildings by claiming that Gaza is so overcrowded that Hamas has no choice. Now over the years you’ve trotted out some pap but that really takes the biscuit. What about all the Hamas government buildings, what about the militias’ own headquarters, what about abandoned sites – there are plenty of places like that that Hamas control that could double as weapons storage and a flat roof for missile launching. No – the choice of mosques, hospitals and schools is DELIBERATE and is the most blatant example of the gutlessness and cowardice of Hamas and their intention to put women and children deliberately in harm’s way to extract maximum propaganda benefit from a sympathetic foreign press.

    The restrictions on those on the West Bank would be lifted if Fatah and the PA recognized the right of Israel to exist and renounced terror. The experience of Arafat’s intifadas taught the Israelis what they needed to do to protect their civilian population. Why do they teach Palestinian kids in school to hate the Jews and to aspire to martyrdom in the cause of killing Zionists? Why did Arafat pay ‘bonuses’ to the families of suicide bombers? Why was billions in aid given by the west spent on corrupt cronies and armaments rather than roads, hospitals and schools? Why have the Palestinians Arab brothers – Syrians, the Saudis, the Iraqis not come to their aid and helped them out or even offer to resettle? The oil rich Arab nations could’ve poured money in the West Bank and made it as productive and vibrant as Israel? Why does the PA encourage a culture of barbarism including the show trial of suspected spies with bodies dragged through the streets? Why when women are have equal rights in Israel are they so subservient in Palestine? Why is there no free press in Gaza? Why are homosexuals that are free in Israel and NZ to make their relationships choices persecuted in Gaza and the West bank? Can people practice whatever religion they want in Gaza – like they can in Israel? If the Palestinians want to not suffer the restrictions the Israelis place upon them why can they not enter into the same kind of lasting peace that Jordan and Egypt have done with Israel. Because those 2 countries recognized Israel’s right to exist and they renounced the attitude that their previous leaders had (death to the Zionists) and they sought peace and diplomatic solutions.

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  144. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    Pre-statehood, ethnic cleansing operations targeting the indigenous population had already begun in earnest.

    Luc, I’m not going to address rest of your post, not when you can’t even get the first point correct.

    The original mass murders/race riots, etc were mainly perpetrated by the Palestinians.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tel_Hai
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Palestine_riots
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_riots

    Good to see on two occassions there were Palestinian voices opposed to the slaughter, unfortunately though that did not matter to the riled up mob.

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  145. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Monique, even by Kiwiblog standards that is a trashy post.

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  146. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Luc

    You really are a narcissist, I spend nearly all my spare time here for two days giving fact based analysis and commentary and you say I don’t answer peeps?

    What you have done for nearly two days is trundle out the same old tired shit you have been doing since I started reading ths blog.

    The only thing you have got really right and that I agree with is, ‘fuck, even I’m sick of your typing too’

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  147. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    I’ve said the timing is too cute to be coincidental and remember, the timing is under Israel’s complete and total control.

    Actually Reid, the timing would appear to be completely under Hamas’ control – they are the ones firing the rockets that Israel then retaliates against.

    To suggest the Israel somehow controls Hamas enough to dictate when they fire those rockets is quite some conspiracy theory…

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  148. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I might actually agree with you that the world would be better off without Hamas. But the question really remains to what extent would you personally support flattening Gaza and everyone in it to achieve that aim.

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  149. lilman (959 comments) says:

    LUC HANSEN, what a complete jerk off.
    Still havent taken your daughter over to the Islamist states and asked her to sell bibles on the street yet Luc?

    Your full of shit and you insult all injured and dead of the past weeks in the Gaza because right or wrong atleast they live in their cultural nightmare ,you on the other hand dont and are a fraud.

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  150. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Reid
    If Wikepedia has been altered by the Zionists as you allege then why is the change that you say happened not listed in the history of the 2012 entry? And if you dispute what’s on there now why don’t you use the Wikepedia process to challenge the changed entry. Everyone knows that if something in Wikipedia is disputed then that dispute is front and centre in the entry and an open and frank debate can take place between the different protagonists who disagree. What you allege is serious – serious enough that anti Israeli types surely would be swarming all over the entry with challenges. The truth is that every single one of the sequential rocket and mortar attacks listed for October are footnoted to an article in the local press – but of course the left leaning Jerusalem Post and Haaretz are all in on the Zionist plot too aren’t they Reid – just like how George Bush and his conspirators blew up the World Trade Center huh! Another Tui billboard!

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  151. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    KIA back with his formidable grasp of propaganda.

    For example, something is inconvenient, even if that something is the United Nations, ah well, ignore it. The fact is the only supporter you have in the UN is your accomplice in crime, the US, and that is because of your actions, not the hate you love to invent.

    As for government in Gaza, Hamas in Gaza is simply a matter of being allowed to pretend to be the warders of a prison and as we have just seen, whenever it wants, Israel can and does step in to assert its primacy .So the facts belie your bluster.

    As for the red herring of Hamas’ modus operandi, Hamas operates from a densely populated area and is denied the geographical advantages of, say, Hizbollah. It’s a fact of life forced on them by nature. but nothing in the laws of rule allows for the deliberate killing of civilians. If civilians are in the way, the attack must be abandoned. That’s the law. Furthermore, how Hamas operates has nothing to do with the wider issue of Israeli oppression of Palestinians. You stole their land, you drive them into concentration camps, you keep them isolated and bereft of hope. What do you expect? A standing ovation?

    Finally, the “She made me do it” is one devoid of morality. I’m surprised Israel doesn’t ensure it is seen as the moral actor here – except that said morals are clearly lacking when it comes to killing Palestinians.

    The restrictions on those on the West Bank would be lifted if Fatah and the PA recognized the right of Israel to exist and renounced terror

    Bullshit. The PLO has recognised Israel. That’s as good as it gets for a state. You are still busy stealing their land, strangling their lives and killing them.

    This is what is deligitimising Israel in the eyes of the world.

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  152. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Luc
    You cant help yourself – projection galore – accusing me of bluster. Are you telling everyone that Hamas’ militias cant find a single government, police or military controlled building in the entire Gaza strip to store weapons where most other para militaries store weapons? Pathetic weak excuse. Israel goes out of its way to warn civilians who live near these sites – they call, text, drop leaflets, advertise on the radio – for crying out loud who in the history of warfare sends out such elaborate warnings as to their attacks – the IDF do – to do all they can to keep civilian casualties to a minimum and to counter as much as possible Hamas’ pernicious tactics. How many texts and phone calls does Hamas undertake to warn Israeli citizens on their rocket attacks? Zero. You know we’d respect you more if you just plain admitted the truth, that Hamas deliberately hides their weapons behind civilian human shields and used the ‘any ends justifies Palestinian means’ argument but that would require honesty.

    The PLO has not done the bigger and more important thing – renounce terror. But frankly what the PLO says is only a fraction of the story. For there to be lasting peace, Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and all the various terror groups need to do the same. They won’t hence the impass.

    Stole their land? Let it go buddy – Here’s what several leading contemporary ARAB commentators had to say about who left Israel and why:

    Former Syrian Prime Minister Khalid al-Azm recalled in his memoirs: “Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees to their country, while it is we who made them leave it. We brought disaster upon one million Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave their land, their homes, their work and their industry. We have rendered them dispossessed, unemployed, whilst every one of them had work or a trade by which he could gain his livelihood.”

    Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Said was quoted as saying: “We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.”

    Contemporary Jordanian politician Anwar Nusseibeh said “the commanders of the local army thought in terms of the revolt against the British in the 1930s. The rebels had often retreated to the mountains, which made sense, as the British had not sought to take control of the country. But the Jews were fighting for complete domination, so the fighters had erred in withdrawing from the villages instead of defending them. He blamed himself as well. ‘I underestimated the strength of my own people”

    The Arab National Committee of Haifa, the Arab leadership in Haifa in 1948, wrote and delivered a report on the flight of roughly 60,000 Arabs from Haifa which said, “The removal of the Arab inhabitants from the town was voluntary and carried out at our request.”

    Habab Issa of Al-Hoda, the leading newspaper for Lebanese Maronites in the United States.wrote “Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring, brotherly states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down,”

    Mahmoud Abbas, the Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority, recalled: “The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live.”

    The Palestinian’s Arab neighbours could’ve alleviated the suffering of their brothers? Why didn’t they?

    Face it Luc – you are a one horse wonder – you come on here wrapping yourself in a shroud of self righteous indignation, accuse us all of bias and then trot out one long ode to Palestinian propoganda from start to finish.

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  153. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    @Bevan

    Each and every instance of conflict between Arabs and Jews in those days was as a result of immigrant Jewish imposition on the presumed rights of the native population. It was perceived by Palestinians as defending their rights, their traditions and their lands.

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  154. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    Luc: When all else fails, rely on the cow eyed, “How could you?, tactic” .
    My post wasn’t trashy so much as true. I’ve communicated with both Israeli women and Chomsky – you? You’re a farkin whinger who bleats about injustice without proof, I’m picking ,but feel free to prove me wrong.
    Anyhoo, why the farking around with your:”poor poor Hamas position”?
    Hamas are rooted. The two major parties in the United States are pro-Israel and anti-hamas.
    What does that tell you? You’d find more innocents in an episode of “SOns of Anarchy”, than the hamas who put children and the disabled in the line of israeli fire.

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  155. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Bedtime here in America – then Thanksgiving feasting!

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  156. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    KIA

    Hamas admits to hiding in civilian areas. The reasons hardly matter. You say it’s because they are bad people. i say they don’t have much choice. Your suggestions on how Hamas could make itself an easier target is risible. What I’m saying is this doesn’t justify the slaughter you support so enthusiastically.

    And if Israel does succeed in wiping out Hamas, what then? The same fate for Gaza as has befallen the West Bank?

    Check out the archives here: http://www.theheadlines.org/12/20-11-12.shtml

    Then, again, you want to pass the responsibility for the mess onto others. It’s not the job of the Arab nations to clean up after your lot and neither do Palestinians show any desire to abandon their ancestral land en masse.

    European Jews understandably escaped from persecution in Europe at the hands of your fellow Europeans, but by then had decided long, long ago, well before the Holocaust, to dispossess the indigenous population of Palestine and the western imperial powers aided and abetted you mainly, according to Tom Segev, precisely because of their anti-Semitism.

    From victim to victimiser is the sad story of European Jewry.

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  157. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    A letter dated 21 September 1882 from one Vladimir Dubnow, a worker at the Mikveh Israel agricultural settlement, to his brother Simon:

    “My ultimate aim, like that of many others, is greater, broader, incomprehensible but not unattainable. The final goal is to gain control of Palestine and to restore to the jewish people the political independence of which it has been deprived for two thousand years. Don’t laugh as this is no illusion…the Jews will proclaim in a loud voice and if necessary with arms in their hands that they are masters of their ancient homeland.”

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  158. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    “The former Guardian Middle East correspondent David Hirst argues that the beginning of the twentieth century saw the arrival of a more militant type of settler to Palestinias, inspired by Theodore Herzl and determined to take control of the land and exclude non-jews from the labour market. The Jewish National fund (JNF), set up to manage Jewish land purchases, decreed in 1901 that all land it purchased could never be resold or leased to gentiles, and settlers began to boycott Arab labour”

    More Bad News from Israel (2006) pp10-11

    Same reference for the above quote.

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  159. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Prove you wrong in what, Monique?

    There is nothing resembling an argument in your posts.

    The Democrats are losing their affection for Israel, as we saw in the convention this year when Obama had to gerrymander through the resolution supporting Israel. The writing is on the wall in the US. It won’t happen overnight but eventually a US president will impose a peace settlement on Israel, and inevitably that will be one state, one person, one vote, end of the Jewish state and beginning of a new Palestine.

    On the other hand, Israel could simply carry out the two state solution, cease its murderous oppression and work out how to live in peace. I assure you, no-one would support Israel more than me if they did that!

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  160. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Hamas admits to hiding in civilian areas. The reasons hardly matter. You say it’s because they are bad people. i say they don’t have much choice

    Luc read above what you have written.

    You’ll will see that its been written by an arsehole. Hamas , the IRA, the UDF -arseholes all -terrorists all -relying on fucking idiots like you to try and have some respectibility – you are a tool being used by murderers

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  161. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    you could have finished that sentence at tool.

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  162. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I’ll let Richard Falk inform the readers much more eloquently and learnedly that I ever could:

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/11/2012111874429224963.html

    Richard Falk, the United Nations Special Rapporteur for the occupied Palestinian Territories.

    He puts the two posters above in their rightful place as ignorant supporters of mass murderers.

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  163. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    “The reasons hardly matter” Luc – the reasons matter greatly – they use women and children as human shields. In a mealy mouthed mumbled pathetic way that you have perfected you eventually admit that. Space is not the issue – Hezbollah did the same in Lebanon with infinitely more real estate to play with than Hamas. Its a feature not a bug – its a deliberate strategy and gives tools like you a platform to accuse Israel of crimes against humanity. Let me ask two question – ones that illustrate the moral gulf that exists between Israel and its enemies:
    * Of the 10,000 + rocket attacks launched by Hamas and Hezbollah into Israel how many times were the Israeli civilian targets given advance warning of the attacks?
    * When Israel seeks to destroy MILITARY assets or take out know terrorists that are hidden behind innocent civilians, how often does it give advance warning of its intentions?

    Answers – Never and most of the time.

    You are as morally bankrupt as the terrorists you coddle.

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  164. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Reid
    I checked on the 2012 Wikipedia list of rocket attacks into Israel – can’t see your challenge to the veracity of the figures. Is this a conspiracy theory that only those of us on Kiwiblog get to read about? This is serious stuff – you need to stand up to the Zionist propoganda and get the truth out there!!

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  165. Yoza (1,873 comments) says:

    “Israel goes out of its way to warn civilians who live near these sites – they call, text, drop leaflets, advertise on the radio – for crying out loud who in the history of warfare sends out such elaborate warnings as to their attacks – the IDF do…”

    This is called psychological terror – tell people trapped in a prison camp they are going to be ruthlessly bombed and they need to run away when there is no where for them to run. Where are they going to run KIA. They can’t flee to Egypt, if the Egyptian military allowed its border to be opened to Gaza they would lose their billion dollar bankrolling from the US godfather.

    In spite of the daily terror Gazans are subjected to at the hands of the sophisticated, mostly US funded, killing machine they continue to resist. In spite of the billions of dollars the US and Israel have poured into the global PR machine in an attempt to sanitize Israeli acts of mass-murder the truth is getting out – those mutilated corpses of defenseless children are the products of Israeli weapons, no amount of sophistry about where Hamas are allegedly hiding their weapons will ever gloss over that fact.

    “Why when women are have equal rights in Israel are they so subservient in Palestine? Why is there no free press in Gaza? Why are homosexuals that are free in Israel and NZ to make their relationships choices persecuted in Gaza and the West bank?”

    And now we have accept the lunatic contention that Israel is fighting for the rights of homosexuals, women and freedom of the press in Gaza. Apparently Israeli ‘surgical’ strikes that kill Gazan women are benevolent acts of Zionest feminism. Seriously, KIA, you are getting weird.

    The US government is slowly being dragged into the more civilised morality of the 21st century by its citizenry. When the US stops supporting Israel in the way it supported the white regime in apartheid South Africa the gig, for Israel, will be up. Israel will not be able to continue its onslaught without direct sponsorship from the US and, like what happened with white South Africa, all its feeble apologists throughout the west will mysteriously evaporate into the ether. This is the future that will leave the likes of KIA and his associated white supremacist nut jobs in its wake.

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  166. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    kiwi in america (1,806) Says:
    November 23rd, 2012 at 3:45 am

    … the moral gulf that exists between Israel and its enemies …

    Taking the name of a once honourable people does not give the Zionist state the moral high ground.

    Perhaps you would you like to comment on the morality of the attack on the USS Liberty or the Lavon Affair?

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  167. Griff (7,715 comments) says:

    brillent yoza
    white supremacist have been booted out of southafraica and Rhodessia
    how did that work for the poor downtrodden people
    did law justice freedom expand in the places once striped of the yoke of colonial oppression.

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  168. Yoza (1,873 comments) says:

    “brillent yoza
    white supremacist have been booted out of southafraica and Rhodess

    Are you, like Kea, advocating a return to white rule for Africa?

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  169. Scott1 (552 comments) says:

    Discussion about who is right or wrong is completly the wrong way to approach the middle east issue. What maters is what sort of pragmatic solutions can be achieved. And if the solutuons that result from the arguments you present are the ones that you want.

    If you finally prove that hamas or israel have the moral high ground – the other side will deny it regardless – and even if they didnt will probably still keep fighting, and you will have achieved nothing except to encourage those you support to sacrifice more lives for nothing.

    issues like right of return are the worst of these. Right of return is a nice sounding moral debate to have but the bottom line is it is too big a shift in the status quo. Unless you are really willing to see the war go on for a few more centuries just so you can get RoR it is a silly thing to be pushing for.

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  170. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Scott1,

    To value pragmatism over ethics puts you in conflict with common law, or, put another way, the end does not justify the means.

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  171. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    Luc Hansen (4,416) (November 22nd, 2012 at 7:39 pm):

    Fuck, even I’m sick of my own typing!

    It took 4,416 comments, but at last Luc has written something that will be met with universal acclaim. :D

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  172. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Ugly
    Could you describe an ethical solution to the conflict that did not rely on pragmatism? Or, put another way, an end that was achieved through laudable means?

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  173. Scott1 (552 comments) says:

    Ugly,

    I don’t think you have really thought through the consequences of fetishising ‘ethics’/’means’

    And I’m not entirely sure that one would consider arranging a ceasefire, and just not hand-wringing over that it is in some sense still unfair, is exactly “unethical”.

    the alternative would be like failing to save a drowning person because it might make you to break a promise. surely that is the unethical option.

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  174. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Yoza
    As usual Marxist slogans and talking points. The strikes are surgical and usually involve a specific building where rockets are launched or weapons stored – occupants dont have far to move to get out of the way. Most do and its why the casualties aren’t even higher. Your romantic discourse about Hamas tells us that you too approve of their use of women and children as human shields. Freedom fighter? No just gutless thugs.

    Global PR machine? What like the BBC, most of the European press, a good chunk of the US mainstream media, NZ Herald, Radio NZ, Australia’s ABC, Canada’s CBC all of whom can be relied upon to swallow Pallywood (staged injuries and incidents), publish Palestinian claims without challenge and vilify Israel. Its a PR machine the Israelis have to fight daily.

    On the issue of the Palestinian repression of women, gays and in fact anyone who dissents, its not Israel’s job to ‘introduce’ these enlightenments of western culture to their neighbours – one would hope they would get to that point because its the right thing to do. It’s instructive to draw the contrast with the free and open society that is Israel where even Arabs have full equal citizenship rights, gay couples can live lives together without fear of retribution, where people can protest the government and not be arrested and where newspapers and magazines that are highly critical of the Israeli government can thrive. Try doing ANY of that in Gaza and see how that works out.

    Yozza you are a true disciple of the hard left and you can always be relied upon to spout their rhetoric. John Minto will be proud of you. Fortunately even in NZ it’s a constituency of 1%.

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  175. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    Yes
    Yoza dodges answering the question. Just asks another question on a different angle because that last question would have exposed the idiotic assertions he/her had made
    This is but one of the lefties slippery eel techniques.

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  176. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    mikenmild,
    Finding a solution involves understanding the relationship between law and religion and of the assumptive nature of the civil system. The solution could be described as the recognition of predatory behaviour within institutional systems, but that’s an oversimplification. I’m sorry is this all sounds a bit abstract, but unless the reasoning for the solution is clear then it’s all just politics.

    Scott1,
    A ceasefire isn’t unethical, but the root cause of the conflict remains.

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  177. Scott1 (552 comments) says:

    But politics IS what matters.
    I suggest that except in as far as it effects politics it is abstract discussion that only matters in as far as it gives the extreemes of both sides fire to kill eachother. (ie both sides construct a plausible argument why they are rightious and then it is impossible to determine which side is right in the same way as it is impossible to prove one form of philosophy wrong with another).

    Simply – there is no point “solving” (like some abstract question) the “root cause” of the conflict if it doesnt stop the conflict.

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  178. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    KIA

    You need to understand something. Demonising Palestinians, even if it were true!, does not diminish the justice of their claim

    Simply put, European Jewry and the Western imperialist powers, later joined and superseded by the USA, dispossessed the Palestinians of their land. That’s the story in a nutshell. I accept entirely the perceived need of European Jewry to make a new home, but that need does not ride roughshod over the rights of the natives of Palestine.

    And while UNGA181 was bereft of morality, it did not demand movements of populations. That was done by the better armed Jews after Palestinians had exhausted their military resources fighting the British – a cause as noble as that of now fighting their Israeli oppressors.

    As soon as Israel stops being supported by the US, and that will happen one day, Israel will be plunged into a permanently weakened state that may, eventually, indeed result in its ultimate demise. Far better to cease this ridiculous hasbara deluge and settle now, generously, with limited right of return and outsized compensation, that will at least ensure a generation or two of peace before future Israelis accept responsibility for the injustices of their forefathers and forge one nation from the river to the sea.

    And by the way, quite a bit of the sea will be in a different place from where it is now…bye bye Tel Aviv?

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  179. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Luc
    Please comment specifically and in detail on each of the contemporary ARAB observers (some even participants in the process cited) that I posted at 823pm last night regarding the outcomes of the 1948 war that utterly contradict the Palestinian view that they were dispossesed of their land by Israel. Repeating the Palestinian line over and over again (something that you have done literally thousands of times on this blog alone) doesn’t make it true much as I know you want it to be so. Furthermore some years ago on this blog I challenged you to post links to the actual legal deeds of the lands you say the Israel stole off the Palestinians – all you could do was link to a Palestinian web site that contained a series of claims untested in any court or verified by any independent outside NEUTRAL observer (as opposed to the many biased observers who will believe anything the Palestinians will tell them). The paper trail tells the story of who owned the land first and who they sold it to and the vast bulk of the land in Israel was purchased from mainly absentee Arab landowners in Lebanon by Jewish settlers usually for full market prices.

    Benny Morris (a historian that even Noam Chomsky believes) put the actual numbers of Palestinian Arab settlers displaced in the thick of the fighting specifically by the military actions of the Israelis (as opposed to the voluntary departure as detailed by so many Arab commentators in the prior post) at a few thousand. The descendants of those specific families can and should be compensated but the entire peace process is held hostage to a fiction that Israel stole the land off the Palestinians. All your lectures and pontificating can’t change the history you refuse to accept. We get that you care about the plight of the Palestinians but you are looking in the wrong places for the causes of their plight.

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  180. TripeWryter (716 comments) says:

    I suppose Hamas are cold-blooded barbarians, just like some in the Israeli government, military, and security services.

    Let’s not get too concerned about what happened, to whom, how and why.

    The summary killing of spies and collaborators – or those considered to be spies and collaborators – goes back a long time. The killers were continuing a long tradition.

    Israel’s secret intelligence agencies have been killing those deemed enemies of Israel since at least the founding of the Jewish State. Don’t remember trials of French and German technicians and scientists working for Egypt, Syria, Libya. What were their crimes again?

    During WW2 Britain gave German spies two choices. Turn and work for us, or die. Those who chose death or thought the English were bluffing were hanged often at Pentonville Jail or shot at a military barracks. No-one bothered with trials. It was legal to execute spies and ‘spies’ without trial.

    The US executed German spies. During the Battle of the Bulge (the last-ditch German offensive against the Allies into Belgium and northern France in December 1944) the Americans captured English speaking German soldiers wearing American uniform. All were shot, mostly within hours.

    Both sides shot the other’s spies during World War 1.

    Every war, even back to Bibilical times and beyond, spies were executed.

    Collaborators were executed, too. They were considered traitors. The American citizen William Joyce (Lord Haw Haw) was hanged by the British. The Norwegians shot Vidkun Quisling. Both were given trials, but the end was never in doubt.

    French women had their heads shaved and they were shamed for having slept with German servicemen.

    Colonel Claus Graf von Stauffenberg and a host of generals and other dissidents were either shot or hanged because the regime deemed them traitors. Well, they had tried to kill Hitler with a bomb.

    But some collaborators get away with it, such as the American, British, French, and Swiss financiers and industrialists who supported the Nazi regime all the way through. Indeed the US Government compensated them after the war for their losses.

    So, I wouldn’t worry too much about the killings reported the other day. Hamas were cleansing their patch of people deemed traitors to the cause. Ugly, but it’s been going on for a long time.

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  181. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Jews have lived alongside Palestinians in Palestine for centuries.

    Migration of Jews has occured for around 2000 years – some into Palestine occured under the Ottomon rule (foestering economic revival) – long before (settlement to enable Jewish self government) Zionism was planned at Basel in 1897. This would have continued but for Ottomon Turk defeat in WW1 and European takeover of its ME territories.

    That this required immigration to realise a Jewish majority, rather than an Arab majority, became the contention with local residents the closer it came to being realised.

    The British decided fostering such a goal was a means to justify a colonial mandate for them, so supported Zionism. Then in 1939 decided to block any further Jewish migration – betray the terms that underpined the award of the League of Nations mandate.

    Then the UN determined post WW2 to partition the land into 2 parts where each had a local majority – this migration would continue but only into the Jewish majority “state of Israel”.

    The real problem since then is not the continued existence of the Jewish state but the consequences of military defeat for the Arab armies in 1948 – in terms of Palestinians in exile and the further loss of territory. These are things that a two state peace cannot restore and the anger and PTS of that have yet to really be put to rest. The illegal settlement building since 1967 (the so called obstacle to a land for peace swap) is still only a secondary factor in the continuance of the conflict.

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  182. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    KIA, whether people left of their own free will (as combatants advanced to fight) is irrelevant. They still owned the land and buildings and were denied the right to return to them or receive compensation for them.

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  183. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Benny Morris (a historian that even Noam Chomsky believes) put the actual numbers of Palestinian Arab settlers displaced in the thick of the fighting specifically by the military actions of the Israelis (as opposed to the voluntary departure as detailed by so many Arab commentators in the prior post) at a few thousand. The descendants of those specific families can and should be compensated but the entire peace process is held hostage

    What you call a voluntary departure most would call fleeing. Those who flee become refugees. The United Nations has determined those refugees have the right to return, and the only people who can negotiate to amend that right are the Palestinians. The United nations determines who is a refugee and the world accepts their figures.

    The bare facts are as I have repeatedly outlined. For fuller explanation see “One Palestine, Complete” by Tom Segev or any other of the myriad references on my sadly neglected blog. Soon, more time will become available for that blog, and I need to revise quite a lot there as my understanding of the situation has advanced, and I look forward to promoting a fuller understanding amongst Kiwis, real Kiwis.

    The issue of land deeds is a favourite of Zionists. The Zionists have always taken great care to erase evidence of Arab occupation of Palestine that reaches back millennia. Take a stroll through any refugee camp and you will find deeds and keys.

    Look, your distortions don’t work in 94% of the world. We know what happened. We know what is happening now. Instead of going back to reinvent history, you guys need to look seriously at how you can survive in an increasingly hostile world, and that hostility is generated by your own actions. On a scale of barbarism, Hamas ranks a 6 but you guys are only one below the perpetrators of the Holocaust. Pick a number, as your US presidential candidate of choice famously said.

    As regards history, the new starting point is UNGA242. It gets reaffirmed every year by almost unanimous acclamation – the exceptions are Israel, of course, and the US, a fellow rogue state, and the odd hanger on depending on how much they are paid or which party is in power. But you lose every year in a landslide. The reason is simple. You represent a time past, a time of European domination, of military conquest, of genocide of any population that stands in the way. But times have changed.

    And we all understand that, unlike Ilan Pappe, Benny Morris couldn’t stand the heat of truthtelling and subsequently set out to contradict the factual evidence. Search the Democracy Now archives for his confrontation with Norman Finkelstein. And Finkelstein on Dershowitz was pretty good too! And don’t quote Chomsky in support of your case. He lost interest in the Zionist project when he understood the extent of the racism involved. I’m on his side!

    And all your propaganda about the evil Hamas (have you read Khaled Mishaal’s story? Expelled from his village at gunpoint when he was 12) and how if the rockets stopped peace would break out, tell that to the Palestinians in the West Bank who are under constant threat of arbitrary arrest, detention, checkpoints and execution at will by either the IDF cowards or the similarly cowardly settlers, and no rockets involved. And your settlers send their raw sewage down to the Palestinians as drinking water.

    We all see the situation for what it is. A brutal colonial style occupation and it will not be permanent, your hasbara notwithstanding.

    Cheers.

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  184. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Trypewriter
    Point taken on executing spies. Its the dragging the bodies through the streets that was so objectionable. Antics like that were done in more barbarous times and do the Palestinian cause no good.

    Luc
    It doesn’t matter whether you call the departure fleeing – at stake is the stated reasons for the departure. The Palestinians’ entire grievance industry is built on the story that the Israelis were the ones who caused ALL the departure/fleeing – the quotes I posted prove the opposite to be the case, quotes from substantial Arab eye witnesses to what happened on the ground. No one denies the Palestinians are refugees but their cause would be better served, as would the wider cause of peace, if they would tell the truth about what happened. That will never happen because there is still great mileage to be made (eg your almost 4500 posts the vast majority of which are on this subject) blaming Israel for everything. Israel is far from blameless and you actually have cited things over the years that are legitimate grievances. Like any dispute, there are two sides to every story – but when the foundation point of the story begins with a distortion then ….well he have the current messy impasse.

    If you have seen the deeds in the camps then post links to them. Are you saying that the millions of acres of land legally bought that those transactions (all provable) have just been manufactured out of thin air because that’s essentially what you are alleging.

    There will always be an eloquent writer who will encapsulate the story of post WW2 Palestine as the Palestinians see it that will be seen to people like you as providing finality to the argument. The left never believe they are wrong, only that their message was not properly explained. So quoting from and citing such writers in no way make your case any better because you exist in a profoundly anti Israeli bubble that broaches no dissent from the party line. No evidence will ever be sufficient to change your mind.

    Changing the subject to the West Bank doesn’t help. For every brutal occupation story there is are parallel stories of the brutal effects of the suicide bombers and the murders committed by Palestinian terrorists.

    The object is peace – a peace that almost every Israeli and Palestinian yearns for. A two state solution is achievable but ALL the Arab protagonists will have to accept Israel’s right to exist and renounce terror. If that could be verifiably achieved I believe Israel would even dismantle the most aggregious of the West Bank settlements. Will Hamas and Hezbollah ever recognise Israel and permanently renounce terror – I hope so but I doubt it – Arafat decided when offered 97% of what he asked for that war with Israel was a better option despite being urged by many Arab allies to take the deal.

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  185. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    KIA
    I agree with much of what you say about balance, two sides to the story, etc. I think you still leave a solution too much in the hands of the side with the least power. I also disagree that Arafat chose war. Think about why Hamas and Hizbollah have replaced the PLO as the main representatives of the Palestinians. The Oslo accords, etc destroyed Arafat when he settled for so much less than the Palestinians had sought since 1967 and resolution 242. When even those huge concessions could not deliver peace, was anyone really surprised at the intifada and the rise of more militant groups?

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  186. kiwi in america (2,452 comments) says:

    Mikenmild
    Politics is the art of the possible not the hoped for. Barak offered more than had ever been offered before or since and represented the outer limit of what was possible in a democracy like Israel. Israeli voters are as educated as savvy as any in the old first world democracies. They have a robust vigorous media representing all sides of the political spectrum and they have a smorgasbord of parties to choose from. Many of the big players in the Arab world and a relatively popular US President from the party of the US left were all pushing for acceptance. The PLO were replaced less because of what Arafat did at Oslo but more because of the rampant corruption they saw with the PA and Hamas and Hezbollah were seen as fresher new players who would get things done. Hezbollah had used crude pork barrel politics in Lebanon (courtesy of all their Syrian and Iranian money) to buy the support of the Lebanese Arabs which contrasted markedly with Abbas who Palestinian voters saw as being part of the system that squandered billions with little in the way of lifestyle improvements on the West Bank.

    I agree the power imbalance is large but that is more a function of the historical pattern of war in the Middle East – that of larger wars with larger sovereign states (Egypt, Jordan, Syria etc) and Israel’s need to build a military machine strong enough to fight and win a two front war. Their near defeat in the first week of the 1974 Yom Kippur war taught Israel that it could take no chances. Peace with Egypt and Jordan has not changed Israeli military preparedness because, as we are learning with the increasingly dictatorial and anti Israel stance of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, that the peace accords may not always hold. I still believe that for all Israel’s bristling bruising tactics and massive military build up that it desires a lasting peace with the Palestinians. Getting both sides to a point where they are close enough to do a deal is very difficult in the fog of even the smaller regional war like skirmishes. Frankly until the Iranian nuclear situation is resolved, very little will be accomplished because that, more than anything else right now, is dominating strategic thinking at the highest levels in Israel right now.

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  187. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Firstly, I think the Iranian nuclear situation is a bit of a red herring. A nuclear-armed Iran is undesirable, to say the least, but arguably no less manageable than nuclear-armed Pakistan, India, North Korea, or even Israel itself.
    Mainly though, I’d agree that a peaceful solution will only arrive when very substantial majorities in each people are supportive of peace rather than war. I doubt the chances of that happening any time soon. It can be a bit pointless to apportion blame, apart from to point out again that Israel really holds by far the most powerful position and so is at least arguably in the best position to achieve peace from a position of strength, but that peace would have to be accepted as just. No peace proposal in recent decades has come close to fulfilling any idea of justice – so the struggle continues.

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  188. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    Mikey,

    Iran with Nuclear weapons is to Israel what Soviet missiles in Cuba would have been to the US.

    An unacceptable threat

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  189. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    First it would have to become a credible threat, which does not seem at all imminent. Secondly, it would have to become an unmanageable threat. Finally, I reject your analogy with Cuba; unless you could explain how the two cases are similar, or why they might differ.

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  190. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    Mikey,

    Nuclear weapons on your doorstep is self-explanatory. One is sufficient to wreck havoc on a country and economy the size of Israel’s. Of course they won’t have a single weapon and each missile will have multiple warheads. Each of which can be targeted on a different location.

    The idea that Iran will not be a threat because they might have ‘a’ missile is fallacious – they will have a large number of warheads and quickly (once they have the weapons-grade uranium)

    That they are attempting to build this capability makes them a credible threat even before they get the capability (at which point they unequivocally are.)

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