27 killed

December 15th, 2012 at 9:11 am by David Farrar

This is terrible, almost beyond belief. The Hartford Courant reports:

Twenty-seven people, including 18 children, have been killed in a shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School, according to the Associated Press.

The shootings happened in a kindergarden classroom. How insane does someone have to be to shoot kids?

Newtown, Connecticut is a fairly small town of 28,000 people. The impact on them will be beyond belief.

It seems the (now dead) killer, Ryan Adam Lanza, killed his own mother who was one of the teachers, and many of the kids were in her class.

So very very sad.

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131 Responses to “27 killed”

  1. Say Goodbye to Hollywood (556 comments) says:

    Heart breaking

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  2. sparky (235 comments) says:

    Just heart-breaking.

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  3. Yvette (2,761 comments) says:

    GUNMAN’S TWEETS
    A Twitter profile for a Ryan Lanza includes tweets about depression and wanting the world to end.
    “I would actually love if the world ended in 2 weeks.. #fucklife,” the Twitter account Ryan_Lanza tweeted on December 2.
    “I want my bestfriend back.. why did everything have to change… again.. #missyoulots #wishyouwouldtxtback,” was posted later that day.
    A message posted on November 11 said the world would be better without him.
    “I truely feel that the world would b a better place without me, im not depressed or anythin its just im thinken about what would b different.”
    Other posts relate to frustration with his parents, not knowing what happiness feels like and hating loving someone who doesn’t love you back.
    “No matter how hard i try, i feel like its not good enough,” Ryan_Lanza posted in late October.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/8084565/27-dead-in-Connecticut-school-shooting

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  4. Neil (576 comments) says:

    Heartbreaking to see 5yr old kids the main death toll in particular.
    What is wrong in the US ? Far too early to think about that but just last week a shooting in a shopping mall in Oregon.
    Talk about having guards with guns !! Metal detectors !! Barbwire fences around schools ! What about public swimming pools,carnival areas etc
    A picture of that Sandy Hook School in Conneticutt shows a sign saying “Visitors Welcome” How long will that continue ?
    Guns aren’t to blame it’s the idiots behind them.
    Maybe it’s time to detain some of these people with severe mental problems in a kind of protective detention ?

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  5. ChardonnayGuy (1,195 comments) says:

    Damn it. Those poor children’s parents. No-one should ever have to go through this, particularly not at a time of year when one’s families and children/grandchildren should be all around us. One wonders if young Mr Lanza was able to access mental health services in his local area suitable for adolescents. Probably not, I fear.

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  6. iMP (2,349 comments) says:

    There are conflicting reports (NZ 9.45am). Federal law enforcement are now saying ADAM Lanza, the brother is actually the killer. RYan is in custody. Perhaps two shooters.

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  7. iMP (2,349 comments) says:

    9.51am there was an altercation in the school office and someone turned on the school intercom so teachers were alerted to what was going on (perhaps the headmaster alerting his staff via classroom speakers). That probably saved lives. Heroic.

    http://conzervative.wordpress.com/wp-admin/post.php?post=12904&action=edit&message=1

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  8. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Beyond belief.

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  9. Yvette (2,761 comments) says:

    @ sinderbrandCNN : From CNN Justice Prod Terry Frieden: Sr law enforcement official familiar w/investigation says Ryan Lanza’s brother found dead in Hoboken
    @ AP : BREAKING: AP source: Suspect in Connecticut school shootings is 24-year-old; younger brother being held. -SS

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  10. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    Requiescite in pace

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  11. Mark (1,465 comments) says:

    This is heartbreaking and for the parents of those kids there is no comfort. And for you Neil to suggest that guns are not the problem you are simply in denial of the facts. Until america confronts the NRA and addresses the almost unfettered right to bear arms they will continue to have these tragedies year after year. it is absolute lunacy

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  12. Fletch (6,225 comments) says:

    Also a knife-wielding man stabbed 22 kids in China.
    Luckily, none died.

    http://metro.co.uk/2012/12/14/man-wielding-knife-stabs-22-children-at-school-in-chengping-china-3316760/

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  13. gopolks (102 comments) says:

    Thoughts and wishes to the people of Connecticut, what
    can one say about this tragic event. As someone who has
    family in CT, including younger relatives, this is an awful day.
    Here’s hoping there is not a day like this again in CT or
    anywhere.

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  14. David Garrett (6,905 comments) says:

    Terrible business…It’s one of those issues where (almost) everything on both sides makes at least some sense…guns dont kill people, people do…quite true…there are these tragedies in every society, regardless of gun laws –true… BUT

    the right to “keep and bear arms” in order to maintain “a well armed militia” is clearly complete nonsense in 2012….If everyone is tooled up, the scales will be even and shootings wont happen NOT true…I lived for a time in small city in Louisiana..the law at the time was that if you carried a gun, it had to be visible, the theory being that if everyone knew you had one, no-one would mess with you…the homicide rate in that city of about 30,000 was about one every fortnight, usually committed with a handgun…

    Then, we tend to forget that the US is a massive country, 100 times our size…We, with our very tight laws on handgun posession, and requirements for everyone to have a licence to possess long guns, had Aramoana in 1990…I am no statistician, but is correct that with the population difference, the US should have 100 Aramoanas for very one of ours?

    I dont know….

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  15. Brian Harmer (686 comments) says:

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/fuck-everything-nation-reports,30743/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=standard-post:headline:default

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  16. Neil (576 comments) says:

    To Mark 936, a gun is an inanimate object. It has to be fired by an animate individual.Mental health once again rears its ugly head.

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  17. bc (1,360 comments) says:

    Like you David, I don’t know what the answer is to situations like this or even if there is an answer. However, allowing more people to have guns sure isn’t it.
    I made the mistake this morning of having a look at Whaleoil’s website. There Cam has a post saying that the shooting wouldn’t have happened if the US has less control control. Yep Cam’s answer is to give the nutters more guns. Sickening.
    I couldn’t read any more. Cam is seriously messed up.

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  18. bc (1,360 comments) says:

    Oh and it gets worse.
    On the same day that Cam uses the Connecticut shooting as a way to argue for less gun control in the US, he then puts has a photo of a semi-automatic rifle as his “photo of the day”.
    Ugh.

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  19. Harriet (4,732 comments) says:

    Mark says#

    “……Until america confronts the NRA and addresses the almost unfettered right to bear arms they will continue to have these tragedies year after year. it is absolute lunacy….”

    Yes of course it is a terrible case when anyone is killed, especially children, but we are obviously talking here about a ‘nutcase’ – not the son of a Manawatu or West Virginian Farmer!……..And as usual, we will again find that the ‘shooter’ is NOT a member of the NRA.

    Most shootings in the US are ‘poor black on poor black’ – not adult on child!

    NZers have ALMOST EXACTLY the same rights as Americans[other than a differing age, police check, types of guns, gun carriage laws] to ‘bear arms’[gun ownership].

    Virtually ALL ADULT NZers could bear arms IF they took up their LEGAL RIGHT to do so. Go and ask at your local Police Station if you don’t believe me.

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  20. m@tt (624 comments) says:

    ‘A gun is an inanimate object’
    Cyanide is an inanimate chemical. Land mines are inanimate. Sticks of dynamite are inanimate…
    What are that valid reasons for owning a gun? A rifle for hunting animals, a 22 rifle for sport target shooting, maybe a shotgun for clay birds. The plethora of weapons available in the US are designed for killing people, not sport. Inanimate or not it’s ridiculous that they allow most of those guns to be manufactured, let alone sold to anyone that can sign their name. Guns kill people all the fucking time but unfortunately I don’t think this evens gets close to what would be needed for the deranged gun lobby to back down.

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  21. seanmaitland (487 comments) says:

    NZ is 22nd in the world on guns per capita – there is a gun for every 4 people. Surely we should have a quarter of the mass shootings that the US has?

    Switzerland has a gun for every 2 people – they must have a lot of mass shootings also.

    Or……maybe its nothing to do with gun ownership…….

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  22. SGA (981 comments) says:

    @seanmaitland “NZ is 22nd in the world on guns per capita – there is a gun for every 4 people. Surely we should have a quarter of the mass shootings that the US has?”

    No Sean, it doens’t work that way. You have to factor in that there are a lot more Americans than NZs as well.

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  23. Reid (16,174 comments) says:

    What are that valid reasons for owning a gun?

    It’s difficult to impossible to control the US population while they have the gun laws they do. Therefore whenever something like this happens, the authorities try to restrict the 2nd Amendment.

    Cynical people say they do this on purpose. Columbine, Virginia Tech, Denver movie theatre, Senator Gifford, RFK, this. All of these have Mind Kontrol written all over them, if you know what to look for.

    http://beforeitsnews.com/conspiracy-theories/2012/12/how-the-cia-trained-shooter-in-connecticut-shooting-tied-to-european-court-ruling-against-the-cia-2446674.html

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  24. Reid (16,174 comments) says:

    Switzerland has a gun for every 2 people – they must have a lot of mass shootings also.

    Or……maybe its nothing to do with gun ownership…….

    Exactly sean.

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  25. gazzmaniac (2,319 comments) says:

    I read somewhere that most gun crime and most murders in the USA were related to the distribution of illicit drugs.

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  26. gopolks (102 comments) says:

    The left in NewZealand has shown its true heart with this tragic event. Some of the comments at the standard are disgusting.

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  27. gazzmaniac (2,319 comments) says:

    It’s difficult to impossible to control the US population while they have the gun laws they do. Therefore whenever something like this happens, the authorities try to restrict the 2nd Amendment.

    I think that was the point of the second amendment.

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  28. RRM (9,745 comments) says:

    :-( People suck.

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  29. David Garrett (6,905 comments) says:

    Well that’s got to be the quote of the day…Other than age, type of guns allowed, how you are allowed to carry them and the police checks …the gun laws in the US are the same as here!

    FFS Harriet, have a look at that post……

    Aside from my age, my lack of stature, the colour of my eyes, my limited ability to act, and the fact I don’t have a cleft chin, George Clooney and I are virtually identical!

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  30. bc (1,360 comments) says:

    Nice one DG – I think I might use that line myself :)

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  31. Harriet (4,732 comments) says:

    Shoddygayguy#

    “…..One wonders if young Mr Lanza was able to access mental health services in his local area suitable for adolescents. Probably not, I fear…..”

    Publicly funded mental health services for people with ‘diagnosed mental illnesses’ are unafordable in ALL countries as they get swamped by people who only have mental ‘issues’. ‘Fat’ people for example. ‘lonely’ people being another. It is paramount for these types of people to sort out their ‘issue’ at the FIRST opportunity, as if they don’t they will then ‘slide’ into depression etc.

    Most mental ‘issues’ can be easily solved by personal responsability at the FIRST opportunity!

    I am of course not talking about rape victims etc, but it is paramount on public health funded authorities to triage ‘patients’ by court order to the front of the list. And only those who are declared ‘victims’ by a criminal court should be allowed to access public health funding.

    ‘offended’ people only need to mature to solve their ‘mental anguish’ problem! :cool:

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  32. Harriet (4,732 comments) says:

    DG#

    That’s the 2nd time you’ve pulled me up on grammer, puncuation…spelling….sentance construction…

    DG is MY PA…..the rest of you can get ya fucken own! :cool:

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  33. cha (3,918 comments) says:

    Most shootings in the US are ‘poor black on poor black’ – not adult on child!

    And most mass murderers are white men.

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  34. eszett (2,389 comments) says:

    Harriet (880) Says:
    December 15th, 2012 at 2:36 pm

    DG#

    That’s the 2nd time you’ve pulled me up on grammer, puncuation…spelling….sentance construction…

    DG is MY PA…..the rest of you can get ya fucken own! :cool:

    Well, you desperately need one, that’s for sure. Spelling, for starters, but basic comprehension may be also useful.

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  35. Rex Widerstrom (5,342 comments) says:

    Neil suggests:

    Maybe it’s time to detain some of these people with severe mental problems in a kind of protective detention ?

    Seriously? You do realise who’s best known for putting that plan into action, don’t you? /facepalm/

    More to the point, Harriet notes:

    Publicly funded mental health services for people with ‘diagnosed mental illnesses’ are unafordable in ALL countries as they get swamped by people who only have mental ‘issues’. ‘Fat’ people for example. ‘lonely’ people being another.

    As someone who encounters the mentally ill only by the time they’ve screwed up their lives enough to end up in the “justice” system, your point has a great deal of validity. Mental health services are grossly underfunded everywhere and at least some of them are taken up by people who have what are, in the scheme of things, trivial issues which our forebears would have shrugegd off and got on with their lives.

    However loneliness – I mean real social isolation, not “I can’t find a boyfriend” nonsense – can be both a cause and an indicator of the kind of mental health issues which can lead to harm, of the self or of others; or at the very best can be part of a sad and crippling spiral of the kind that sees people laying dead and undiscovered till the smell bothers their neighbours.

    The clinicians I speak to say it’s very difficult to quickly and effectively triage the whiners from those in real need, as few people admit first off that they feel they’re menatlly ill and many who are do not know and manage to maintain a “front” even to a professional assigned to treat them. In other words it would be easy to immediately dismiss someone who presented saying “I hate myself because I can’t stop eating cake” when in fact that’s merely the most obvious symptom of a self-destructive impulse which, left untreated, could turn outward.

    All of which leads me to the conclusion of so many of us here… I don’t know… other than that this is one of the handful of problems that would be improved by throwing some money at it, even if the cost of that was indulging a percentage of people who simply need to HTFU.

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  36. Harriet (4,732 comments) says:

    DG#

    OK OK……but this is what I was replying to-

    “……Until america confronts the NRA and addresses the almost unfettered right to bear arms….”

    It seemed to me that Mark is of the belief that NZ does not have an ‘unfettered right’ – and as you know David we do. It also then seemed to me that Mark then probably had no idea about NZ gun laws[rights] at all.

    Although broadly[which is what you are taking the piss about] I then LISTED the ONLY 4 MAJOR differances in gun ownership between NZ & the US[age, police check, types of guns, gun carriage laws].

    BTW – Clooney isn’t a smartass…….or gay! :cool:

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  37. Harriet (4,732 comments) says:

    eszett#

    How much do you weigh? :cool:

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  38. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    RRM (5,977) Says:
    December 15th, 2012 at 1:27 pm
    People suck.

    That is the best summary I have seen, of how a lefty authoritarian views their fellow man. Good to see some sincerity from RRM for once.

    These tragic events are isolated incidents. Statistically, you are far more likely to be harmed by the state, which is the very identity the anti gun lobby want our guns handed over too. Our police carry guns for one reason and one reason only. To shoot us. Every war and large scale human rights abuse has involved the “authorities”. Random acts by disturbed people are not a major threat.

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  39. Harriet (4,732 comments) says:

    “…most mass murderers are white men….”

    “….men regualy annoyed by others are white men….”

    There.Fixed it for you cha! :cool:

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  40. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    So how many guns do you have Kea? Enough to keep the ‘authorities’ away?

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  41. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    That is the sort of ignorant question I would expect from you mikenmild. “How many” guns can you shoot at once?

    Do you have any comment on what I actually said ?

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  42. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    @Rex

    that this is one of the handful of problems that would be improved by throwing some money at

    Once upon a time in Auckland there was Carrington and Oakley ( and Kingseat), when you had a melt down or tried to fry your children you were committed by doctors or you could volunteer to to be admitted, you could get straightened out or for some it was home. The hospitals were old but generally the patients were safe and they could get their meds and they had a roof over their heads.

    Then some genius thinks, why shouldn’t the insane be allowed the same “rights” as everyone, they should be allowed to walk drooling around Pt Chev, we’ll just let the insane loose and get them to come in at 3.23 pm every other tuesday and they will get their meds and we will save a shit load of money and they will be normal just walking around doing nothing ,unemployable.

    In my definition of being insane it makes it very hard to keep appointsments when you have voices in your head. It was just not fair on these poor buggers. You saw them wandering around town, sleeping under bridges, jumping off bridges, it was horrible.

    My convuluted point is, whats wrong with having the insane locked up, these people are insane and by definition they cannot function normally in day to day society. instead they sit in half way houses, isolated, making their mental condition worse by drinking and drugging, chopping the heads off the other residents ( two months ago in Balmoral)

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  43. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    BTW – Clooney isn’t a smartass…….or gay!

    I have finally convinced my wife that he is as gay as a big gay thing solely due to the fact that no hetrosexual male can be that charming and tolerant of females all the time!!!!

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  44. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Okay Kea, I’ll phrase it another way. How many weapons would NZ citizens need to pose a significant threat to those authorities? You probably won’t want to answer that either. Instead, you want me to comment on the rest of your ignorant bullshit. The Police carry weapons to defend themselves and others in emergencies. They generally prefer not to carry firearms. Possibly this has something to do with them being members of our community rather than agents of an oppressive and tyrannical state.

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  45. Harriet (4,732 comments) says:

    eszett#

    Don’t take what I say about gay marriage seriously – look for what is important that I haven’t said.

    The likes of Ryan are products of the gaystapo. They can’t tolerate diversity.

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  46. David Garrett (6,905 comments) says:

    PEB: I think Ms Harriet, he with “sexual identity issues”, might be suggesting I am gay…as well as being a smartass…to the second of which I readily plead guilty..

    But I suddently remember that this is not a thread for frivolity…I cannot imagine losing one or both of my children any time, but two weeks before Christmas? Literally doesnt bear thinking about…

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  47. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    DG sad as it is , there is not one thing anyone can do about it…

    Literally doesnt bear thinking about…

    just don’t, seriously , it would do your head in and there is still nothing you can do about it.

    There’ll be a couple of people killed tonight on NZ roads, one death is no better or worse than any other.

    The only think I do know is when this happens the anti gun lobby bar up, but then Raymond Ratima did seven, not a firearm in sight. Then next thing whenever this happens its great time to be anti- US- but like you pointed out , its a big country and only big crimes make the news. Sad but true

    Two things I’m certain of though, the sun will come up tomorrow and Clooney is gay

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  48. eszett (2,389 comments) says:

    Not sure why you bring up gay marriage in this particular thread, Harriet, but it only goes to show that you are indeed quite a disturbed and distasteful personality.

    And rest assured, very few here, if any, take you seriously.

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  49. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    mikenmild, your going way ahead of what I actually said in my post. Go back and read it again. Then tell us how many people were killed by the US Government last year, then tell us how many were killed by lone crazy gunmen. See my point ?

    The point of my post was, clearly, that governments kill more people than lone nutters with guns. What part of that do you consider “ignorant bullshit” ?

    Or are you seriously advancing the notion that all major wars and conflict, such as WWII, were the work of private firearms owners?

    As for your blathering about why the police carry guns; they do carry them to shoot people. No other reason. It is just a simple fact. We are fortunate in NZ, but in much of the world things are different and the police murder people to uphold corrupt and brutal regimes. These are well known and self evident facts. You are simply reading things into my comments that were not said, as a platform for another one of your self righteous rants.

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  50. tarrant (35 comments) says:

    Another day, another massacre in America

    Ho-hum

    There are plenty of unbalanced and unstable people in the world, many of them in America

    Put a lethal weapon in their hands, results are predictable

    The people of America need to leave behind gun-worship, legislate to restrict availability of guns, then given a few decades, these types of events may decrease

    Otherwise, no change is likely

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  51. Rex Widerstrom (5,342 comments) says:

    @Pauleastbay

    I’ve actually regularly lamented the closure of secure mental facilities, as they mean people who need treatment end up in our jails, so I agree with you. But Neil was talking of “a kind of protective detention” which to me suggests either giving “the authorities” the power to detain someone if they think he or she is acting abnormally. Whether that authority is a police officer, a panel of do-gooders or anyone else who’d rush to be appointed to such a job (thus rendering them automatically unsuitable to do it) it’s not something I’d like to see.

    The old system, whereby someone came onto the radar when their mental illness was obviously manifest, were assessed by teams of professionals, and then detained under the watch of other professionals, who always had the option of releasing them if and when their condition improved.

    OTOH, “you sound a bit odd, off to the Gulag with you” would see half the Kiwiblog commentariat in a straightjacket tomorrow, which half being dependent upon whether lefties or righties ran the assessment process :-D

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  52. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    tarrant, who shall they (the Americans) give their guns to ?

    I hope you don’t suggest the US Government, because that would be silly. Pick up a news paper and ready why…

    I know you have an internet connection. Help mikenmoron research the number killed by the US Government last year, and then tell us how many were killed by lone gunmen in the US, during the same period.

    I suggest you stop learning about guns by watching the telly. You may also want to research the mass killings in countries that ban or severely restrict private firearm ownership. You may also notice something else; that those countries with the worst human rights records tend to have the sorts of laws people like you are suggesting. Funny that.

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  53. Yvette (2,761 comments) says:

    … you are indeed quite a disturbed and distasteful personality. And rest assured, very few here, if any, take you seriously.

    Yes – that’s one way it starts …

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  54. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    I’ve felt sick all day at this tragedy. My deepest sympathies to all those who lost precious children.

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  55. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Rex

    The old commital proceedings were pretty fool proof and I believe saved many people alot of grief.

    To me, one who has no problem about incarcerating people it always seemed so wrong to have to put a raving looney in the cells with criminals, and then to see the poor raving looney drooling around town with no real support because , “clever people” thought it more important to try and have these persons in society rather than the poor bastards having a roof over their heads and three meals.

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  56. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    At least 22 children and one adult have been injured in a knife attack outside a primary school in central China, police say.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2012/12/2012121481220620325.html

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  57. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    A series of uncoordinated mass stabbings, hammer attacks, and cleaver attacks in the People’s Republic of China began in March 2010. The spate of attacks left at least 21 dead and some 90 injured. Analysts have blamed mental health problems caused by rapid social change for the rise in these kind of mass murder and murder-suicide incidents

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010%E2%80%932011)

    At least the government banned guns. (The same government that is responsible for killing 75 million of its own people, in peace time. )

    Now I wonder where our hysterical anti gun trolls have scampered off to ….

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  58. eszett (2,389 comments) says:

    Nice one, Kea. And you call other people trolls? Wow.

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  59. big bruv (13,658 comments) says:

    It always amazes me to see the small penised gun freaks come out with the same bullshit every time this happens in the USA.

    As David Garrett said earlier, the “right to bear arms” is complete rubbish and only gives life to wankers like Bedwetter who think that they can “take back” the USA with their guns.

    The sooner the seppos get a POTUS who tells the NRA to fuck off the better, they need REAL gun control laws.

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  60. David Garrett (6,905 comments) says:

    Well Kea, there are four weapons in my locked gun cupboard…I have had a firearms licence for 30 years…and I think readily availability of handguns is an absolutely appalling idea…does that make me a” hysterical anti gun troll” ?

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  61. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    But, but, but David, don’t you think your guns are a bulwark against tyranny?

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  62. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    It always amazes me to see the small penised gun freaks come out with the same bullshit every time this happens in the USA.

    Or in Port Arthur, Australia? Do these small penised gun freaks of yours think that Martin Bryant was responsible for the mass murder of 1996?

    http://members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca/port_arthur.htm

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  63. Rightandleft (658 comments) says:

    Mass murders can happen in countries with far fewer guns and much tighter gun laws than the US, just look at what happened in Norway. Most gun crime in the US (not mass murders but general gun crime) is committed by those using illegal weapons. Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens to purchase guns is not going to stop the criminals. There are nearly 300 million legal guns in the US and they aren’t all going to disappear even if the govt outlawed many of them. Washington DC had a handgun and assault rifle ban when I lived there and there were still over 200 murders a year in a city of 500,000.

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  64. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Hey, Ugly’s back with another conspiracy theory!

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  65. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    eszett, so what do you find “trollish” about my post ?

    It clearly shows these events happen, regardless of guns. The first post is from today’s news and the other wiki. You can combine the total for an updated toll. Of course China does not report everything, as they still have a view mm’s floating around in power.

    I have noticed those opposed to private firearm ownership have only launched personal attacks, or attempt to portray me as saying things I did not say.

    Especially funny with mm, trying to paint me as some gun nut preparing to fight off the authorities. I am the “authorities” and voted for the government of the day.

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  66. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    David Garrett, why even ask me that ? Are you on the piss with mm ?

    Get a grip man.

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  67. nasska (11,065 comments) says:

    All that is accomplished by disarming the citizenry is to create a nation of defenseless victims. Criminals can & will be armed if they so wish because by definition they don’t give a stuff for the law.

    Try farming over half an hour’s fast drive away from the nearest cop shop & see how long wanky antigun sentiments last.

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  68. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    mikenmild, if it wasn’t for conspiracy theorists, guy fawke’s day would likely have a completely different meaning.

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  69. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    I hope Ugly’s not trying to say that the existence of real conspiracies endorses his crackpot theories.

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  70. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    http://thismodernworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/TMW2011-01-12acolorARCHIVE.jpg

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  71. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    As long as we keep guns out of the hands of people like mikenmild, I will be happy. His conspiracy theories are alarming and he seems to be getting more irrational recently, lashing out in all directions at imagined phantoms. The creepy little man scares me a bit.

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  72. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Oh dear.

    It appears mm gets his view of the world from cartoons. :(

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  73. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    What I’m saying is that the existence of real conspiracies means that evidence of conspiracy should be investigated. Port Arthur conspiracy isn’t theoretical or crackpot.

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  74. Reid (16,174 comments) says:

    This incident reeks.

    This is not some nut. How could some nut do this.

    This is like how the Denver geeky science guy is supposed to have been so skilled with booby traps and explosives he prevented the entire police force from entry for some 48 hours or so, in that case.

    It reeks like that.

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  75. Reid (16,174 comments) says:

    ..from entry to his flat…

    come back edit feature…

    come back soon…

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  76. nasska (11,065 comments) says:

    Reid

    It seems that two brothers are involved…..one is dead but if the other isn’t alive & fit when it’s time to testify as to what was actually behind the killings I’ll join you in your conspiracy call.

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  77. Harriet (4,732 comments) says:

    “…….The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government…..” – Thomas Jefferson

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  78. Reid (16,174 comments) says:

    if the other isn’t alive & fit when it’s time to testify as to what was actually behind the killings I’ll join you in your conspiracy call.

    nasska one has nothing to do with the other.

    I don’t know if this is an orchestrated move but if it is an orchestrated move then the brother may genuinely and probably does know nothing whatsoever. Whatever his brother says means nothing, whatever he says, is my triage on that intelligence, at this moment.

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  79. big bruv (13,658 comments) says:

    “…….The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government…..”

    Lol..is that the best you can up with in the year 2012?

    Unless you are brain dead fool like bedwetter who thinks that the commies are coming to get him there is no justification at all for people to keep and retain arms.

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  80. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    big bruv, the justification is the right to property. The Port Arthur conspiracy highlights the argument of tyranny in government.

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  81. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    big bruv, what is the justification for the people in power keeping their guns?

    I have read about this mas murder on numerous news sites around the world. It really drove my central point home. Although this was, often, a leading story, there were many more stories reporting on people killed by Police and Military. You can see this in the “world news” section of any news paper.

    People have a misguided view on the level of risk. Globally, the authorities are far more of a risk, than private citizens with guns. This is not about the “commies are coming” and no one has suggested it is. It is a simple statistical fact.

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  82. nasska (11,065 comments) says:

    Reid

    You may well be right but the last report I read stated….”His brother, Ryan Lanza, was “either in custody or being questioned”, a law enforcement source said……

    I guess time will tell.

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  83. bhudson (4,736 comments) says:

    This is like how…It reeks like that.

    Reid,

    Are you trying to suggest the illuminati are behind this?

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  84. RF (1,363 comments) says:

    I have a gun safe containing two shotguns, two .22 rifles, a 303 and a 308. All legal. Used to have immediate access to a sidearm in my other job and did not have any hang ups about that. Rather than jump on the people who have a legal right to own firearms it’s time the unlicensed people were seriously taken to the cleaners.

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  85. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Oh and big bruv….. any comment on the the mass killing I linked to above, one from today’s news, involving knives ?

    There are many more examples. I just used one country as an example. A country with very tight gun control, though a massively armed state. They are your kind of people, I suspect.

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  86. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    it’s time the unlicensed people were seriously taken to the cleaners.

    That would be great, but it won’t work.

    There are tons of guns floating around off the radar. You would be very very wrong to think they are all in the hands of criminals. Many are not. So the problem is how to locate them. Gangs and habitual criminals are an easy target, but what about the nice old guy with the well kept garden down the road, who has a German machine gun hidden in the shed, and a big box of ammo ? Or the business man who has a few legal guns and an MP5, not declared ?

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  87. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    nasska, apparently the press is backtracking about Ryan Lanza due to the misidentification of Adam Lanza. It’s unclear who the guy in camo gear was.

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  88. nasska (11,065 comments) says:

    UglyTruth

    Interesting. Obviously their MSM is about as piss useless as ours.

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  89. Reid (16,174 comments) says:

    Are you trying to suggest the illuminati are behind this?

    No that’s your conclusion from what I’ve said above bhudson. I’ve never mentioned the Illuminati and their control or otherwise of these events isn’t under discussion.

    What is under discussion is what makes a 20 year old boy-man kill his mother and children. How precisely does that come about, using laws which govern the world as we know it?

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  90. nasska (11,065 comments) says:

    Kea

    If you are to go after unregistered guns (which I consider is a waste of resources) the action would be justified on the grounds of increased public safety.

    It’s worth considering whether the danger posed by your gardener or businessman is even a distant fraction of the risk that armed gang members present.

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  91. cha (3,918 comments) says:

    This is Victoria.

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  92. bhudson (4,736 comments) says:

    cha,

    Yes, she is

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  93. cha (3,918 comments) says:

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/teacher-victoria-soto-threw-herself-in-front-of-her-students-to-save-them-at-sandy-hook-elementary-school/story-e6frg6n6-1226537530317

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  94. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I agree nasska. The examples I used are unlikely to be a threat to anyone.

    The trouble is that people who are willing to kill or threaten others, are unlikely to be concerned about registration details for firearms. We can not un-invent guns and crims will get them if they want them. They are also not that difficult to make yourself.

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  95. RF (1,363 comments) says:

    Kea

    I know there is shit load of firearms in the hands of unlicensed persons including criminals. My idea is to come down hard on anyone illegally found in possession. Not the wet bus ticket type of punishment. At least that’s a start.

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  96. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    RF, do you really think that will help?

    I mean, the penalty for shooting someone, or using a gun to commit a crime, is already high. If they are willing to go that far, why worry about a firearms licence?

    The result may be a few pig hunters and farm boys getting locked up, due to a casual attitude about bureaucracy. They are hardly the “target market”.

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  97. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    Kea, maybe it’s because I have a bad cold and a headache, but I have no idea what point(s) you are trying to make.

    What have incidents with knives in China or wherever, or governments killing people, or the war vet with an old pistol got to do with – well, anything?

    How is any of that relevant to the horrible events in the USA this thread is about?

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  98. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    nasska, stuff.co.nz has scrubbed the reference to the camo guy as well:

    From Google:

    Connecticut Shooting | 27 dead in elementary school… | Stuff.co.nz
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/…/27-dead-in-Connecticut-elementary-school-shooti…14 hours ago – Another person was being held in police custody after he was detained in the woods near the school wearing camouflage pants, CBS reported.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/8084565/27-dead-in-Connecticut-elementary-school-shooting

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  99. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Mary Rose, there are people on this thread who are using this horrible event to push their anti gun hysteria. They crawl out of the wood work every time something like this happens. Strangely they do not when a US bomb kills that many civilians.

    My point, in reply, is that:

    1) There is statistically more chance of being killed by the authorities. (A fact you can check yourself by reading a bit of international news.)

    2) Even with private firearms ownership banned, and extreme penalties for breaching the law, these tragic events still occur.

    The people using these awful events to push their agenda, portray a far greater level of risk than statistics or common sense support. These are rare and infrequent events, unlike the wars and killings of the worlds governments.

    I hope that clears things up for you and you feel better soon :)

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  100. RF (1,363 comments) says:

    Kea.. OK what’s your solution

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  101. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    Ah, ok.
    Usually, these things bring out the “if only they’d all had guns, he’d have been stopped sooner” brigade.
    This one has brought out some anti-gun people.
    All arguments for other times and places.

    I don’t like it when anyone hijacks an individual event to push their own agenda, whatever that agenda is.
    Especially when the bodies are barely cold.

    Heartfelt sympathy to all those affected is all the comment required, I think.

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  102. Harriet (4,732 comments) says:

    “……Unless you are brain dead fool like bedwetter who thinks that the commies are coming to get him there is no justification at all for people to keep and retain arms….”

    “……There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws…….” – Ayn Rand

    Try selling food in a supermarket without ‘unit pricing’ – even though the government spends a billion a year on mental arithmetic education!

    The commies are already here. :cool:

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  103. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “if only they’d all had guns, he’d have been stopped sooner”

    So what part of that don’t you agree with? It is a fact. Try going on a rampage when all the victims are armed and see what happens. These nutters would not last a minute in some countries.

    Guns are a great leveler. If everyone walked around with guns, we would see a reduction in all violent crime and robberies. It would be a much more civil society. Fortunately we do not need to imagine such a place, they exist. Look it up yourself. I wont provide any links, because you will just question the source. Personally I think carting a gun around is annoying and don’t even like carrying a wallet and car keys !

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  104. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    What part of “All arguments for other times and places did you miss?

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  105. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    Bother: no edit function to correct the punctuation in that.

    But
    >The people using these awful events to push their agenda

    Arguing for guns is presumably your agenda. Which you now appear to be pushing.

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  106. RRM (9,745 comments) says:

    The U.S. gun enthusiasts are correct in saying that a gun does no harm until someone pulls the trigger. I think they like steering the conversation onto this trite, callous and cowardly diversion because it’s unpalatable to consider that by its very nature a gun is nothing but a cheap device that makes it far, far easier for even a small, physically weak person with modest funds to kill a lot of people very quickly and efficiently with minimal physical effort, compared to any other tool or invention out there. So if guns are your thing then it’s understandable that you might need to construct a fairly complex philosophical justification for it all to keep yourself sane.
    (Or have a problem with rabbits ruining your fields. ;-) )

    But what fight are the gun people winning here, really? Maybe private gun ownership HAS already prevented the rise of some domestic tyranny in the USA, as the gun lobby insists, who can say?
    But we can see that that certainly comes at a hell of a price, and the payments seem to be getting made in bigger and bigger installments lately.

    And the 2nd amendment probably made a lot of sense in 1791, but the gun fetishists who spout the 2nd amendment now are masturbating themselves hard and they MUST know it. These people have watched every video that’s on YouTube showing Apache gunship helicopters and B-52 bombers blowing things up, and they love that stuff. So they can’t seriously believe they could actually oppose a corrupt political insurrection that had the backing of their military. And yet they trumpet the 2nd amendment every time one of these tragedies occurs. Wankers.

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  107. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Kea.. OK what’s your solution

    Dunno.

    I think the level of risk is actually lower than the popular media would have us believe. That observation in no way minimises the level of suffering when such things do occur. It is a tragedy. However, sometimes the cure can be worse than the problem.

    The problem is not the gun, but the person. ( As I have demonstrated with other breaking news today. At least 22 children and one adult have been injured in a knife attack outside a primary school in central China, police say )

    Focusing on the method of death is flawed. We need to support socially isolated and unhappy people more, as a society. Bain is a good example, in my view.

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  108. Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left (783 comments) says:

    20 children robbed of life and the thread has to turn political. Fucking dicks

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  109. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Oh the “moral high ground” approach. I so love that, especially when it is done from the “high horse” :)

    I do need your permission to post on KB. I find it very revealing that you have singled out my posts. I have no agenda, but I not opposed to guns. I base my views on reason and logic. You have contributed nothing in that regard.

    The sorts of people who do these things say stuff like this:

    RRM (5,978) Says:
    December 15th, 2012 at 1:27 pm
    People suck.

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  110. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    Eh?

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  111. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    20 children robbed of life and the thread has to turn political. Fucking dicks

    Really? Actually it has stayed very much on topic. What would you suggest is appropriate ?

    Your comment sounds like RRM’s “People suck” comment. It is the sort of thing the killer “tweeted” before he did all those things. Check it out for yourself and compare.

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  112. cha (3,918 comments) says:

    Here’s a fact

    And a few more facts:

    http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/mythbusting-israel-and-switzerland-are-not-gun-toting-utopias/

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/24/87-gun-deaths-a-day-why-the-colorado-shooting-is-tragically-unsurprising.html

    http://www.momlogic.com/2008/08/protect_your_kids_from_guns.php

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  113. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Mary Rose,

    My 10:47 was directed at you, but it is bit of a mess. Let me clear it up.

    What part of “All arguments for other times and places did you miss?

    The arrogance of your comment reveals rather allot about you. No one needs your approval to post on KB. If you have anything of substance to say, now is your time. If you think only the state should have guns, then just say so, but don’t bother with the silly games.

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  114. cha (3,918 comments) says:

    More facts.

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  115. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    WTF?

    I offered no opinion on guns at all.

    I asked in the first place what your point was, because while everyone else on this thread had a clear opinion, I couldn’t fathom what you were trying to say.

    You then said that a tragedy like this wasn’t the place for people to push their views on gun laws.

    I agreed. Saying that usually it sees the pro-gun lobby hijack the subject, in this case it has seen some anti-gun people do so.

    But that I agreed with you, it wasn’t the place for either side to push their agenda.

    You then put words into my mouth (deciding I had taken a view on guns) and said guns would have stopped it.

    Before telling someone else you had no solution.

    You say a lot, but contradict yourself so much it’s impossible to know what you are actually saying.

    as for “what part did you miss?”
    I never said for a second you need permission to comment on KB. Stop putting words into people’s mouths.

    I said I didn’t want to get into a pro/anti gun debate.

    Which I though was what you’d said when you did the bit about it being wrong for people to push their agendas.

    Arguing with you is like arguing with jelly. You claim to be reasonable and logical and to have the moral high ground. When you contradict yourself frequently.

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  116. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Nice “facts” cha. It is Cherry season after all.

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  117. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Mary, where have I contradicted myself ?

    My points are self evident and I can not dumb things down anymore for your benefit. Sorry about that.

    Your getting all cranky now and should probably go to bed.

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  118. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    >My points are self evident

    Sorry, but they are as clear as mud.

    As for contradictions: for instance, you say people shouldn’t use this to push their own agenda.
    Then have a go at Slight Shrivelled, who was saying exactly the same thing. Albeit it in earthier language.

    And yeah, it’s late. Good night.

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  119. Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left (783 comments) says:

    “Your comment sounds like RRM’s “People suck” comment. It is the sort of thing the killer “tweeted” before he did all those things. Check it out for yourself and compare.”
    you really are a sad individual
    I shouldn’t even reply to you but you should probably get your facts straight on this comment

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  120. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    cha, Some other facts about school shootings:

    Dunblane 1996: records sealed for 100 years, Hamilton had police contacts and history of paedophilia.
    Columbine 1999: Witnesses report at least 3-4 shooters, only 2 are officially acknowledged.

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  121. cha (3,918 comments) says:

    It gets worse, neither the killer or his mother had any connection to the school.

    A former school board official in Newtown called into question earlier reports that Nancy Lanza had been connected to Sandy Hook Elementary School, possibly as part of the teaching staff.

    “No one has heard of her,” said Lillian Bittman, who served on the local school board until 2011. “Teachers don’t know her.”

    http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2012/12/14/details-emerge-about-family-of-suspected-newtown-school-gunman/

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  122. cha (3,918 comments) says:

    An actual link would be nice Ugly, for truthiness’s sake.

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  123. big bruv (13,658 comments) says:

    One of Bedwetter’s fans…

    http://falfn.com/CrusaderRabbit/?p=15805

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  124. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Why is the truth suddenly important to you cha? You have managed without it so far on this topic.

    As you have clearly found, the internet will provide us with evidence to support any point of view. I am not impressed by your link fest and I wonder if you have any point of view to offer.

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  125. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    cha is usually able to back opinions with relevant sources, unlike many commenters who prefer the PIDOOMA method.

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  126. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left, thanks for taking the time to let some more of your bitterness out. I hope I have made a small difference.

    Seeing as your post made no reply to anything I said, I will assume you have not checked the killers tweets and compared them with RRM’s horrible and hopeless statement about humanity.

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  127. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    mm, this is 2012 and we all have the internet. We can all find relevant sources to link to, in order to support any position. So far I have seen no reasonable argument presented by the anti private gun ownership, pro armed state, people like yourself. Just personal attacks.

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  128. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    That’s right Kea, because there are a wide variety of sources of information you are absolved of any obligation to produce any evidence to support your arguments. Only your rhetoric, such as it is, counts here.

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  129. Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left (783 comments) says:

    FFS Kea. I gave u a hint. Those are not the killer’s tweets. Are you so full of hate that you don’t even take the time to sort fact from fiction before you go off on your tasteless crusades?

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  130. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    FFS Kea. I gave u a hint. Those are not the killer’s tweets. Are you so full of hate that you don’t even take the time to sort fact from fiction before you go off on your tasteless crusades?

    I never said they were the killers tweets. They are however the sort of things (“People suck”) these nutters come out with, before they blow. Yet you claim I am “full of hate”. That says it all really.

    If you really value facts, over fiction, have a read of this thread and you will see the true colors of the anti private ownership (of firearms) crowd. We see no attempt to engage the arguments advanced. Instead we get”

    Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left (710) Says:
    December 15th, 2012 at 10:44 pm
    20 children robbed of life and the thread has to turn political. Fucking dicks

    RRM (5,979) Says:
    December 15th, 2012 at 1:27 pm
    People suck.

    They are the sort of sentiments expressed by the killer. Your attempts to take the moral high ground have failed. The only emotive “hate” language has come from you and your ilk. Your type clearly have a low opinion of your fellow man, which goes along way towards explaining why you don’t want them to have guns, unless they wear a uniform, strangely !

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  131. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,823 comments) says:

    ‘somewhat autistic’

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