General Debate 25 December 2012 – Merry Christmas

December 25th, 2012 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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71 Responses to “General Debate 25 December 2012 – Merry Christmas”

  1. Say Goodbye to Hollywood (562 comments) says:

    Merry Christmas all.

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  2. Steve (North Shore) (4,561 comments) says:

    Enjoy your day everyone

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  3. lofty (1,310 comments) says:

    Merry Christmas to everyone, and thanks to DPF for his efforts this year, it has been fun.

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  4. Ross Miller (1,704 comments) says:

    To each and everyone … may the spirit of Christmas be with you.

    To DPF … thank you

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  5. Pete George (23,561 comments) says:

    In hope everyone has a good one however you do your Christmas. Especially DPF.

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  6. Manolo (13,767 comments) says:

    A Merry Christmas to all fellow commenters and our kind host.

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  7. Dave Mann (1,218 comments) says:

    I can only echo the above… Have
    great Christmas everybody, and DPF thanks for all your work on this excellent site. CHEERS!

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  8. Kea (12,839 comments) says:

    Merry Christmas and I wish you all a great year ahead, regardless of your political & social views :)

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  9. Marty McFly (6 comments) says:

    and as “the Baron cried out, “Merry Christmas, my friend[s]!””

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  10. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    Merry Christmas to one and all. Even you lefties B-)

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  11. Colville (2,268 comments) says:

    Cheers and Merry Xmas DPF

    and to all you downright strange bastards that post on here, thanks, its been entertaining.

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  12. bringbackdemocracy (427 comments) says:

    Merry Christmas
    Don’t forget the reason for the season.

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  13. Azeraph (604 comments) says:

    What! we all have to say it?

    Shut the phones down, Overeat so you can’t drink, Drive safely.

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  14. Manolo (13,767 comments) says:

    …and to all you downright strange bastards that post on here, thanks,..

    Not that I feel included in your kind sentence, but, rest assured Colville, the sentiment is reciprocated. :D

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  15. Fletch (6,387 comments) says:

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  16. Tom B (55 comments) says:

    I’ve never had eggnog. So this year i decided to make eggnog when we went and had a family xmas in winton. So ive maxe some from this site http://www.marthastewart.com/317061/the-original-eggnog. God damn. I’ve had five mugs and now i’m hiding from the inlaws. I am very merry.

    I was Santa this year for some children of some work colleagues. It was grat fun. Ine of the kids gave me half a cheerio to say thankyou and then came back woth another one “for later”. So cute. My lvely wife is pouring shots out of a teapot oitside where xmas lunch s about to be served. Thank god for southland weather!!M

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  17. Left Right and Centre (2,979 comments) says:

    xmas is for christians. Have an enjoyable day and day off people.

    It’s ideal made to order weather in Wellington. Blue sky, light breeze where I am.
    Ironically it’s so hot that I wouldn’t mind a bad Wellington southerly.

    The hot temperatures have created a fun new game called ‘what’s the most doors and windows that can be fully opened’? I don’t even want to think about 37 degrees in Melbourne.

    I’d be interested in seeing daily sunburn stats. And the number of people sleeping outside.

    Peasant stuff:

    I ate a remaining 100g out of 300g of raspberry lamington log (that I couldn’t resist on xmas eve) with half a 500ml bottle of remaining cream for breakfast followed shortly by a wee bit of chocolate sponge roll. I discovered that cream mixed half and half with trim milk still tastes just as good, if not better. That’s about as xmasy as I get. No tree, no cards, no presents, no people.

    It’s called the xmas diet. Nothing but cake and cream. Because cake and cream alone blows the daily calorie budget.

    Prime TV has given me a great gift… a programme I’m quite fond of called Outnumbered in marathon form today. I actually miss the time off in the adverts. You need MySky peasant.

    Remember… the tilt of the Earth’s axis is the reason for the season

    http://www.sillybeliefs.com/blog023.html#blog023-8

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  18. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “xmas is for christians”

    Christ is for everyone.

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  19. Left Right and Centre (2,979 comments) says:

    No, xmas fairytales are just for christians. They like them.

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  20. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    There is something about the idea of peace on earth and goodwill to all that resonates in the mind today. Of course, that is a very widespread cultural tradition, rather than something specific to any one religion.

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  21. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    Headed for 39 degrees here in Perth… my weather gizmo says 34 so far… I’d love to be in Wellington right now, not just for the glorious weather but that’s a big part of it. NZ knows how to do fine days – warm enough to lure you outside, but not so hot that you flop in a puddle when you do.

    Enjoy the greatest country on Earth, fellow Kiwibloggers, and thanks for the intellectual challenge and stimulation this year, even when in some of the remotest spots on the planet.

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  22. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    LRC,

    As a purely cultural phenomenon a lot of people who are not Christians like it’s traditions. So your statement is factually incorrect.

    As to “fairy tales”, everyone has a set of metaphysical assumptions and beliefs. Including you.

    My faith in Christ and His blessings in my life are no fairy tale.

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  23. Left Right and Centre (2,979 comments) says:

    Are you quoting Dr. Russel Norman? Sounds like a Green Party policy mikey.

    There’s nothing special about today mikey. It’s just another day like all the rest!! Unless you’re a christian. Nothing needs to resonate in the mind today any more or less than any other day. Can’t agree with you there mikey.

    All the non-christians like it because they’re getting a paid day off thanks to some religious nonsense. They can visit each other with the time off. Did they go to church? nah.

    All of these religious people… honestly.. if they’d been born somewhere else they’d be trying to shove Allah down your throat instead of their particular brand of nonsense.

    If you love all the xmas nonsense fella… I’m happy that you’re happy.

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  24. Left Right and Centre (2,979 comments) says:

    Lee… let’s cut to the chase. You’re just another brainwashed religious nutter. And I’m not.

    Are you happy to leave it there or do you want to keep boring me with the same broken record religious noises you lot make?

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  25. Keeping Stock (10,339 comments) says:

    Merry Christmas all. Whatever today means to you, may it be a day of rest and refreshment, although not necessarily in that order :D

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  26. Manolo (13,767 comments) says:

    Headed for 39 degrees here in Perth….

    You must be creaming it, Rex. All the mineral wealth of W.A. and the strong Aussie dollar, make possible for you to mingle with Gina and mates.

    On a serious note: have a very happy Christmas!

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  27. Kea (12,839 comments) says:

    They are not feeling much of the cheer and goodwill stuff, over on the Bain thread. Still, I suspect they are having fun in their own way. ;)

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  28. Kea (12,839 comments) says:

    It looks like Obama has big plans in the New Year. With the backing of the left, he has launched military action all over the Middle East, Africa and Central Asia. But he is not finished, not by a long shot.

    US deploying troops to 35 African countries

    http://rt.com/usa/news/us-deploying-troops-order-749/

    I guess it is a more personal touch than all the Drone Strikes he is currently using there. I am expecting some sort of major military action next year.

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  29. big bruv (13,888 comments) says:

    Xmas ceased to be a religious holiday many years ago. Today it has other meanings for most Kiwis.

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  30. big bruv (13,888 comments) says:

    Oh….and considering that the gun lovers think that the answer to school shooting is for every teacher in the USA to carry a gun does that mean that they think that Fire fighters in that fucked up country should do the same?

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  31. big bruv (13,888 comments) says:

    Fuck!!!…bring back the edit function

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  32. Kea (12,839 comments) says:

    big bruv, Ironic you would post that, after I showed what the people you want the US citizens to give their guns to, are planing. If you value human life so dearly, why are you not crying out for the biggest killers to give up their guns (The various Armed States/Governments) ?

    Is it simply a case of you only wanting guns in the hands of people you believe think like you ? And why do they want guns, do you think?

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  33. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    @BB
    Yea, the answer is a loaded fully automatic weapon next to each and every fire extinguisher.
    Everyone has to carry an M16 on their back. Even grannies.

    That’ll stop the rot

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  34. big bruv (13,888 comments) says:

    Kea

    Clearly you are a moron. Only a moron would think that the answer to the gun problem in the USA is more guns.

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  35. nasska (11,503 comments) says:

    big bruv

    While I stop well short of advocating a M60 for every mantle piece I do consider that citizens have a right to defend themselves against intruders & thieves. Are you advocating the total disarming of all Americans including side arms & rifles or just restricting military type weapons?

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  36. Kea (12,839 comments) says:

    big bruv, where did I actually say that, or anything like that?

    Cut n’ paste where I have said that, and I will retract the statement. If you can not do so, then retract yours. All I am drawing attention to is that the US government are the biggest killers by far. Not random nutters. They go all over the world killing thousands, and are getting worse right under our noses. Just one of Obamas hundreds of drone attacks have killed more than that school shooting did.

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  37. Tauhei Notts (1,712 comments) says:

    Our daughter called from Catalonia.
    She had been to see The Hobbitt.
    She said the landscapes and the vegetation, in the background, made her homesick.
    The other daughter cooked the most marvellous baron of beef I have enjoyed for quite some time.
    That Piper Heidsieck is pretty good stuff.

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  38. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    does that mean that they think that Fire fighters in that fucked up country should do the same?

    bb,

    Did you know about this when you posted that comment?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/8117643/NY-gunman-set-trap-for-firefighters

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  39. big bruv (13,888 comments) says:

    bhudson

    Yes I did. Are you suggesting that having fire fighters carry guns is a good idea?

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  40. nasska (11,503 comments) says:

    Tauhei Notts

    Saved this for you…..as a racing man you may get to use it:

    A jockey was riding the favourite at a race meeting, and was well ahead of the field.
    His horse rounded the final corner, when suddenly the jockey was hit on the head by a turkey and a string of sausages.
    He managed to keep control of his mount and pulled back into the lead, only to be struck by a box of Christmas crackers and a dozen mince pies as he went over the last fence.
    With great skill he managed to steer the horse to the front of the field once more when, on the run in, he was struck on the head by a bottle of sherry and a Christmas pudding. Thus distracted, he succeeded in coming only second.
    He immediately went to the race stewards to complain that he had been seriously hampered….

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  41. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    bb,

    I would suggest that those firemen having firearms would have been a very good idea.

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  42. heathcote (104 comments) says:

    Merry Christmas everyone

    What a great day to sit around doing very little and watching the tele. Great, no ads on Christmas Day! What? Hello?
    TV effing One continues to break into every single programme, even Mary Poppins, every 10 minutes with their own ads. How does that work? What gives them the right to advertise on Christmas Day? And advertising entirely inappropriate programmes during programmes aimed at children.

    TV One. Reminds me of that famous line in Blazing Saddles – “you know, morons”.

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  43. Kea (12,839 comments) says:

    Still waiting for an answer bb ….

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  44. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    ‘Remember… the tilt of the Earth’s axis is the reason for the season”

    That’s intelligent design…. evidence of God at work. Evolution could not have done it.

    Jesus is the reason!!!

    He gave me a Christmas above and beyond my expectations

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  45. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    ‘Only a moron would think that the answer to the gun problem in the USA is more guns.’

    When Obama stops protecting his family with guns everyone else can.

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  46. chiz (1,144 comments) says:

    Hinamanu:evidence of God at work. Evolution could not have done it.

    That’s because evolution is about biology and has nothing to say about planets and what they do so your ‘argument’ is meaningless.

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  47. Fletch (6,387 comments) says:

    A homeowner in Sacramento is being treated for non life threatening wounds after successfully fighting off 3 armed home invaders who tried to attack his home last night.

    The homeowner grabbed a weapon after 3 armed men tried to break into the home, and opened fire.

    The homeowner was shot by one of the suspects, but he managed to shoot all 3 suspects. One of the shot suspects died at the scene and the other 2 are being detained by police as they try to figure out exactly what happened.

    Residents say there were children in the home at the time of the attempted home invasion. There may have been a children’s slumber party going on at the time of the attack.

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  48. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    LRC,

    Everybody is religious, including you.

    As to the laughable, intellectually lazy argument about “brainwashing”, now that’s a boring argument! And one I have heard a million times before.

    I found Christ after many years of philosophical and religious searching.

    So please, try another one. Your not impressing me.

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  49. chiz (1,144 comments) says:

    Lee01:Everybody is religious, including you.

    Only if you use a definition of religious that is very clearly not the one intended, which isn’t very honest. He was clearly talking about belief systems which involve deities or some supernatural component.

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  50. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    Chiz,

    The only sustainable definition of religion is a set of metaphysical (supernatural) beliefs. And every person on earth has them. It is dishonest to claim otherwise.

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  51. chiz (1,144 comments) says:

    Many of us do not believe in supernatural entities so your claim that everyone does is false.

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  52. Tauhei Notts (1,712 comments) says:

    Hey Nasska,
    I might repeat that in the New Zealand Room tomorrow Or maybe in the Piccolo Bar. Or in the Carbine Room as member 64846. Interestingly, on a site like this, the Labour Party have occasionally held functions in the Carbine Room. Mike and Paul’s sister seems to be the one to organise them.

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  53. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    Talk to an atheist who supports same-sex marriage. Within five minutes he or she will claim that their reason for doing so is that they BELIEVE in equality.

    Equality is a metaphysical concept. It cannot be seen, touched, smelt, heard or tasted. It does not exist in nature.

    Thus it is a spiritual belief. And to many in the West it has attained the status of a deity.

    Everyone is religious. It is impossible not to be.

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  54. Kea (12,839 comments) says:

    Equality is a metaphysical concept. It cannot be seen, touched, smelt, heard or tasted. It does not exist in nature.

    Thus it is a spiritual belief.

    Good point Lee01, one of the best I have heard and I have heard a lot.

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  55. chiz (1,144 comments) says:

    Again, lee01, you are being dishonest. Belief in metaphysical concepts like equality is not the same thing as believing in supernatural concepts which is what religion is all about. It is perfectly possible to not believe in supernatural concepts so long as you don’t cheat, as you do, by arbitrarily redefining terms.

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  56. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    Chiz,

    Yes, belief in metaphysical concepts is exactly the same thing as belief in spiritual beings and/or God.

    I have not arbitrarily changed any definitions. You have.

    And the definition I have used is the standard one used by secular universities by those who study religion from a secular pov.

    I understand that the truth must make you very uncomfortable.

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  57. chiz (1,144 comments) says:

    Belief in concepts like equality is not at all like belief in a god or a spiritual being since the latter is a specific entity whereas equality is an abstract property.

    I understand that being confronted with the existence of people who live without having religious beliefs must make you uncomfortable but that is no reason to keep redefining terms to deny our existence or legitimise yours.

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  58. Tauhei Notts (1,712 comments) says:

    Chiz,
    It has attained the status of a deity.
    And if anybody attacks your deity you respond like a common god botherer who’s religion has been attacked.

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  59. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Those who claim that equality is a “spiritual belief” have to be able to show that it cannot be proven (or how it is not based on truth or knowledge that can be validated). Thus it is an article of “faith” or otherwise distinguish between spiritual belief and faith.

    The fundamental premise of democracy – that citizens are equal in their political rights – is a constitutional building block of the social contract of the modern nation state.

    Those who claim that principles of law in the society of the social contract – such as equality before the law, are spiritual beliefs, then have to explain why a nation that has no state religion has this principle in law. Why nations with varying religious traditions build nation states on these principles.

    In America many believe in God (and “his” constitution) ruling over America, they just oppose a popular government chosen by the majority of the people doing so. Christians claiming this the true superior religion vs the rival spiritual beliefs of fellow Americans (who dare to vote Democrat)

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  60. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    In response to chiz and SPC,

    Show me a piece of “equality”.

    No?

    Then unless you can prove it’s existence through purely scientific means it is in fact a metaphysical belief.

    The fact that countries with no state religion
    is not relevant, because all states enact laws based on utterly unprovable metaphysical beliefs. An official state religion is not necessary for that.

    Any attempt to claim a difference between one metaphysical belief and another based on an arbitrary and false distinction between deities and “abstract principles” is either profoundly ignorant or nothing more than a word game.

    This is because the study of the sociology of religion has shown that such distinctions break down when observing how human beings actually operate, think, live and make value judgements.

    It also breaks down when studying groups which self identify as religions.

    For example pure Buddhism has no deity. Yet it I’d rightly considered a religion. And certain forms of Hinduism do not believe in any personal deities, but consider Ultimate Reality to be impersonal and abstract.

    Thus the oh so very convenient distinction chiz is trying to make is simply false and self-delusional.

    ALL human beings have set of metaphysical beliefs. Thus all humans are religious.

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  61. David Farrar (1,895 comments) says:

    Hope everyone had a good day. Thanks for the comments.

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  62. Kea (12,839 comments) says:

    Lee01, I am an atheist and what your saying does not give me cause to reconsider that position. But, I have to side with you on this one.

    I think SPC & chiz do not see your point clearly. The burden of proof lays with the person making the claim. If someone claims “equality” is what we should strive for, then they should provide proof. As you have correctly observed, there is no evidence in nature (of equality) rather the opposite.

    Richard Dawkins has often commented that evolution provides an explanation of how we came to be, but natural selection does not inform his morality. He would be appalled if it did. So the question is, what does inform his beliefs on those matters? He knows nature does not work that way, so where did he get those ideas, given the lack of evidence? Having said that, there are evolutionary explanations for why we have altruistic tendencies.

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  63. Kea (12,839 comments) says:

    Cheers David and thanks for a great blog :)

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  64. Dave Mann (1,218 comments) says:

    As an atheist, I have a very strongly held metaphysical belief in the hereafter. Every Christmas I solemn swear that hereafter I will diet and exercise more to assuage my prandial sins…. maybe I’ll start tomorrow…. :)

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  65. Paulus (2,627 comments) says:

    I wonder why the 25th December for many hundred’s of centuries is called “Christ”mas.
    If you have ever been in, say Kuala Lumpur, during the Christmas season you will see that as a Muslim country they go crazy for Christmas.
    Russel Norman is a just a hypocrite – but we know that.

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  66. eszett (2,408 comments) says:

    I think SPC & chiz do not see your point clearly. The burden of proof lays with the person making the claim

    Actually, you don’t seem to see his “point” (If you can call it that) very clearly either.

    The argument that as soon as you form an abstract concept you are “religious” is a spurious one.

    It’s a variation of the classic “atheism is also a religion” defense of religious apologists, which I like to call the “OFF is also a TV Station” defense.

    Lee only goes a bit further and says not only is OFF a TV Station, but everything is a TV Station.
    The pictures on your walls, the books in your bookshelf, the CDs anything that you can look at is a TV Station.

    Usually mounted by people who watch way too much TV and seldom switch the station. Or use the OFF button.

    In short, religions are abstract concepts, but abstract concepts are not religions. TV Stations are media, but not all media are TV stations.

    But, Kea, I am glad to see that you have found the OFF button. Finally some common ground. ;-) Happy Holidays.

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  67. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    ‘Hope everyone had a good day. Thanks for the comments.’

    Could we have the edit function back Mr Farrar

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  68. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Lee01

    If all humanity are religious, why are those of “no religion” the third largest group of humans after Christians and Moslems?
    What many of them have in common – is the notion that members of nation states are equal citizens and the related concepts of civil liberties and human rights. They have this in common with some Christians and some Moslems. If this is religious, it is the most common (humanist) one in the world. Perhaps only matched by faith in life after death or there being a God.

    Calling any organisation of society supranatural, and therefore religious, is to define human activity in such a way so that others can call it of a rebellion against God because it is not subordinated to the will of their God. This leads to the division notable today in the politics of the USA.

    In defining the unalienable rights of humanity to sovereignty over its own affairs – and then claiming this to to be God given (God granting humanity dominion in the bible), “we” separated the secular or political society realm from the realm of religious faith (obedience to the rule of God within religious traditions).

    Is there any way to organise a social contract for human society without equal citizenship democracy? The alternatives exclude consent to the order of rule. Until there is one, then this is not so much a belief, but organisational necessity.

    As for the age of man in nature, I would imagine that groups of humans survived the hunter gather age by acting in common.

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  69. Left Right and Centre (2,979 comments) says:

    I’ve got a metaphysical belief that all religious people are totally deluded certifiable noddy twats with severe mental disorders. They need an entire DSM volume all to themselves.

    Lee… I don’t impress you. Dude, you are out of your tiny tiny little mind.

    If anything mate, I feel *sorry* for you. Very sorry. I pity you. Seriously.

    And the way that you talk a load of old waffly academic bollocks… I’m going to have to refer you to the team at Silly Beliefs.

    http://www.sillybeliefs.com/

    They’re much smarter than I am so I suggest if you want to wank lyrical with all of your utterly pointless intellectual bullshit… do it with them because they really really really get off shooting down dumb arguments by irrational religious zealots.

    I dare you to make a point without using the word ‘metaphysical’. One trick bloody pony!!

    Let me sum up the 12:56pm post: No-one gives a fuck. Too busy enjoying life to give a shit about blah blah blah steaming bullshit of that magnitude. Life’s too short to bother with that crap. You’re a sheep that bleats the same way as every other religious sheep. MEEEEEEEEHHH!!!!! Actually, you’re right… I am religious. I worship pixies and elves, Santa the tooth fairy and Satan. I’m thinking about going Pagan too. May the force be with you genius!!

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  70. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    SPC (1,715) Says:
    December 27th, 2012 at 12:31 am
    Lee01

    If all humanity are religious, why are those of “no religion” the third largest group of humans after Christians and Moslems?
    What many of them have in common – is the notion that members of nation states are equal citizens and the related concepts of civil liberties and human rights.

    Humanism is an ofshoot of Cicero’s Rome. Cicero held the view that human reason was of divine origin, in other words humanism has always implied the existence of religious belief.

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  71. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    So ugly truth, that would explain why Octavius would claim to have become a god when Emperor of Rome (and be beyond reproach in his decision-making as a dictator).

    However it is not necessary to postulate a divine source to human reason for it to exist. So why would anyone confuse modern humanism with this?

    Though it might explain logos theory within Christianity as a convergence of Greek philosophy with the concept that the bible word channels the mind of God and thus reveals God. The idea of knowledge of the ideal made word.

    I see the claim of Lee01 that all human reasoning is religious as like a joke on the thought of Descartes. He thinks because he is and he is because he thinks. So does (our) God exists because (this) God thinks it does, or because we think it does? What if someone was to imagine God as a snowman because it has children at Christmas time up north? (Doctor Who special).

    Those who connect religion with how we live and build human society (in the secular aspect) have two profiles

    1. the academic who sees God as an invented tool of man to legitimise society order/shared values out of chaos, but that this is not dependent on the resort to God or there being any God.
    2. the religious person who either believes there is a God, that we can know or have knowledge of – this being true religion. Or otherwise believes that a created God has superior tradition or values to rivals.

    Apparently some of the latter will cite the former as a validation of the idea that everyone else is also religious.

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