General Debate 6 December 2012

December 6th, 2012 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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162 Responses to “General Debate 6 December 2012”

  1. Carlos (684 comments) says:

    All I want for Christmas is:

    1) New Zealanders to dump their entitlement mentality.

    2) New Zealand governments to make tough economic decisions that will make New Zealand strong and debt free in the long term.

    3) New Zealanders to really respect and even admire those who do well in business.

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  2. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    Transgender people have a unique problem with marriage inequality – when a spouse changes gender they must either divorce or they can’t change their legal gender status. Trans are small in numbers but I think this is an important aspect of the debate.

    Marriage equality would solve this. Marriage equality especially important for transgender people

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  3. iMP (2,154 comments) says:

    The world of Carlos and the world of Pete George. Hmmm, which planet will I choose to live on?

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  4. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    The herald reports….King Tuheitia has again written to Waikato-Tainui members warning them that politically the tribe is on the “brink of calamity” and pointedly telling “Pakeha commentators” to keep out of the tribe’s business.

    So – the fouled mouthed ex truck driver has burst into print again….

    Well we can sure of several things.
    1. He hasnt got the education nor where-with-all to write some thing like is claimed (where is Tuku….).
    2. His really pissed with Chris Trotter for (correctly) calling him an Ass
    3. The fouled mouth ex truck driver actually thinks hes a real king – not on who is there simply for convenience.

    The maori king movement is one of the most powerful examples of aboriginies wanting to be like the colonial arrivals. Maybe the fouled mouthed ex truck driver doesnt understand this when he says that Pakeha should shut the fuck up. He is the prime example of maori wanting to be like pakeha – and maybe he should listen a bit more.

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  5. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Well one is a dream that will not exist in the real world .
    The other is a plea to make some poor weirdos more acceptable in the present.
    I go with pg at least he is trying for something that is achievable

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  6. graham (2,211 comments) says:

    Pete: Does this problem also occur in civil unions?

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  7. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    Pete George @ 8.04…….

    Whats gotten into you? I assume that you got out of bed on the wrong side and banged your head against something realy hard………….

    Marriage and transgender people changing genders………..
    Havent you got bills to pay or work to go to or even grass to watch growing – anything is more relevant than that transgender crap.

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  8. kowtow (6,734 comments) says:

    So called “marriage equality”is the least of so called “transgender people’s ” problems.

    And there is no “debate”,it’s being decided by the political elite.

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  9. iMP (2,154 comments) says:

    In “Equality-land” I am very committed to my cat Snuggles. However, I also love my dog Diddums, she’s my beatch. What if I marry my cat but later on decide I really love my dog more? My dog is after all my best friend. Should there be an equality love test? My half sister loves my cat and my dog too, so can we all marry and be equally happy? After all, why should I discriminate between my cat, my dog and my half sister? People are just so judgmental.

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  10. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    iMP–you selfish shit – you know thats called polygamy – and it not allowed – I think.
    Well its certainly not allowed of the genders are opposite – but maybe for transgenders its OK

    Maybe thats what this lot is really after – polygamy

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  11. calendar girl (1,108 comments) says:

    Why is it that some NZ’s news outlet editors have no idea about what constitutes “business” in the normally-accepted sense of that term? Here are today’s five leading stories in the Stuff “Business” category on its website:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/8041838/New-IRD-boss-backs-French-advisers A political story about the IRD Commissioner answering questions before a Parliamentary Committee.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/8041850/Fraudsters-anticipate-happy-Christmas A general “news” story warning credit card users about risks to personal data security for credit card users shopping for Christmas.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/8041851/Todd-family-takes-Pegasus-Town-reins Arguably the nearest thing to a business story in this bunch, but its principal business-related aspect is the news that privately-owned Todd Property Group has purchased the as-yet-undeveloped property assets of a North Canterbury “new town” project after the previous developer became bankrupt. A substantial part of the remainder of the story seems to be Todd PR material.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/8041852/Hubbard-statutory-managers-to-pay-bill A Court story, this time a technical one about who is paying certain legal costs relating to litigation over the statutory management of defunct South Canterbury Finance Group.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/8041836/Normans-numbers-aren-t-stacking-up A political opinion piece by Patrick Smellie on Greens’ co-leader Russel Norman, his recent performance in Parliamentary skirmishes and his improving prospects for a the Finance portfolio in a future Labour-Greens government.

    These leading “Business” stories, collectively, shed little if any light on the current or prospective performance of NZ business or businesses, on world business stories impacting on our economy, or on any other meaningful insight that might inform a reader genuinely interested in the business world.

    If this is representative of the standard of so-called “business” journalism in New Zealand, is it any wonder that most people in our country remain economically illiterate?

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  12. Falafulu Fisi (2,176 comments) says:

    Its time for some christmas music. Beautiful Voices

    - Kat Jenkins Duet (an opera singer)

    - Maria Carey

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  13. iMP (2,154 comments) says:

    Obama and Spiderman get it on. Nuff said. Gimme a break. http://conzervative.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/obama-spiderman/

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  14. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    “Why is it that some NZ’s news outlet editors have no idea about what constitutes “business” in the normally-accepted sense of that term?”

    Haha- thanks for the laff.

    Why read those Pravda outlets anyway??

    Note for those recently “educated” in the socialist school system: Pravda was the official news organ of the Soviet Socialist Republic, another left wing system that went belly up a way back.

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  15. kowtow (6,734 comments) says:

    Those radio prats in Oz who phoned Kate’s hospital are complete idiots. Simply not funny.

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  16. calendar girl (1,108 comments) says:

    Red, I suspect that my regular world news and business reading may be more balanced than yours. Regardless, I’m not going to cut myself off from reading and criticising NZ media whose editorial performance plays too great a part in moulding our political structures and policies, and their damaging under-performance in matters relating to our economy.

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  17. David Garrett (5,152 comments) says:

    Ah Russell, you are back…meds relatively in balance.

    (Yes, I’m a cry baby who got really upset when…..)

    PG: I’m sorry mate, I am with your critics on this one.. the problems of some small fraction (the married ones who change teams mid match as it were) of the “transgender community” is REALLY the issue of the day for you?

    Sue Couch finally getting some compensation after nearly being beaten to death by a piece of vermin who should never have been on the street? The issues raised by the Horan affair? No? Nothing else more important?

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  18. James Stephenson (1,885 comments) says:

    I guess we now know why Stuart Hall, in “It’s a Knockout” commentary mode, was such a fan of the Belgians.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20618520

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  19. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    Obviously the TOW payments, whanau ora et al aint enough for the greedy stoneagers

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/8043314/Schools-spent-money-on-fines-TV

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  20. kowtow (6,734 comments) says:

    Muslim women have a unique problem with marriage inequality-4 of them can have 1 husband in Saudi,but in Aotearoa 4 women cannot be married to one man.

    True equality would recognise their unique position.

    The marriage redefinition bill will not address this inequality,because it’s not about inequality .It’s about legislating for homosexual marriage.

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  21. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    DG, no, it’s not ‘the issue of the day’, but it’s an issue that I think deserves to be publicised. Why shouldn’t it be? I think the country (and Kiwiblog) is capable of handling more than one topic a day.

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  22. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    P.G., is the air that rarified in Dunedin?

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  23. hj (5,720 comments) says:

    What would you like New Zealand’s population to be by 2060?

    13450–13500 votes

    5 million 24%

    10 million 24%

    15 million 9%

    As many as possible. 7%

    No more – we’ve got enough. 36%
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10847678

    However, population increase is government policy and National is the most popular party so we must want it musn’t we..!.

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  24. Fletch (5,727 comments) says:

    R.I.P Dave Brubeck…

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  25. David Garrett (5,152 comments) says:

    PG: too true…GD is just that…a “general” debate…But tell me this… other than you and Marilyn Waring – who in a recent interview seems to think “transgender issues” are hugely important – how many people do you think use any of their neurons worrying about the problems of some transgender person who gets married and then decides to bat for the other team while still married?

    I am quite concerned about the problems of old man’s beard and other noxious weeds endangering the fragment of native bush left in Kaukapakapa (working bee this Sunday for anyone who’s interested) but I dont think anyone else on KB would give a toss .

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  26. Longknives (4,051 comments) says:

    Susan Couch deserves a huge payout. The reality is she will only receive a fraction of what Bain and Karam swindle from the New Zealand taxpayer….

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  27. graham (2,211 comments) says:

    Pete, this is starting to have shades of the whole “men-only clubs” debate yesterday. I’m sorry that some people seem unable to accept that everybody is *not* equal, and you can’t simply legislate it away.

    As you point out in your comment, there is a solution – get a divorce. You pointed out that someone who changes their sex can change their birth certificate to reflect that. Assuming one accepts the rationale behind doing that (which is another debate entirely), then you are essentially saying that this person is now a different person from who they were born as. If you change your sex from Pete George to Petra George, then Mrs George is living a completely different life now with Petra George than she was when she originally married Pete George. So why wouldn’t she divorce or dissolve the original marriage – because she is no longer married to Pete George – and then enter into a civil union with Petra George, if that’s the way her boat rocks?

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  28. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    DG – indications are that quite a few people think it’s important to support minority rights. That’s how Susan Couch seems to be about to get compensation she deserves. If people ignored her for their old man’s beard she’d have had no chance of geting anything.

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  29. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    And another minority being offered support:

    Maori Party Co-leader Tariana Turia says if Mr Horan stays, he’ll have some support from her party.

    “I know what it’s like to be here on your own, and to be isolated, and I wouldn’t like to see that happen to him.”

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/977221346-tariana-turia-offers-support-to-horan

    Does the Maori Party see Horan as a potential recruit and extra vote? What would be a clear case of jumping the waka.

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  30. James Stephenson (1,885 comments) says:

    Is it “waka jumping” if you get unexpectedly pushed into the water then someone else paddles by and fishes you out?

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  31. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    hj,

    However, population increase is government policy and National is the most popular party so we must want it musn’t we..!.

    So 64% of those surveyed want the population to increase. 40% of those surveyed want the population increase to be extraordinary large (double or more.)

    And you somehow think that survey showed that people don’t want more immigration????

    I think perhaps you need to swot up a bit on reading statistics.

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  32. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    graham, yesterday most people were arguing that a few men should have a right to set up their own club, using laws that are available to everyone. This is different, a minority is denied equal rights.

    you are essentially saying that this person is now a different person from who they were born as.

    In the way I think you intend that to mean, that’s nonsense.

    But in another way we are all very different people compared to when we were born. And most of us are quite diifferent to when we were married, but that’s no reason for us to have to get a divorce.

    Or do you think if a middle aged dude buys a Harley, shaves his head, grows a beard and acquires a huge glob of fat on his midriff he should have to get a divorce?

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  33. graham (2,211 comments) says:

    Don’t remember Tariana offering the same support to Chris Carter when he was dumped from Labour …

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  34. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    Or do you think if a middle aged dude buys a Harley, shaves his head, grows a beard and acquires a huge glob of fat on his midriff he should have to get a divorce?

    I did!

    (OK, I didn’t actually shave my head, but age and genetics means the haircut has been a #1 clipper cut for some time.)

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  35. graham (2,211 comments) says:

    Oh Pete, don’t be such a prat. You are seriously trying to equate someone who grows a beard with someone who has a sex-change operation?!

    On your website you quote Diane Sparks as saying this is one of the most difficult situations any married couple will ever face.

    Hardly the same as growing a beard.

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  36. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    A murderer ponders his options: http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/12/05/253495.html

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  37. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    The racist and incompetent Turia has no principles. She’s just a trougher enjoying the baubles of power.

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  38. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    graham – and I seriously said a lot more than just growing a beard, that was the least significant example of four that I gave.

    Having said that even growing a beard can have a significant impact on a relationship.

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  39. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    No Christmas Unless Fiscal Cliff Deal Reached

    Eric Cantor launches war on Christmas

    A budget crisis wouldn’t really be a crisis unless it ran up against a much-loved American holiday season.

    Thus the Fiscal Cliff has only truly reached the status of dire national emergency today, with Eric Cantor’s announcement that Congress won’t be able to take a holiday break until a “credible solution to the fiscal cliff has been found.”

    The House was due to start its recess on Dec 14, but Cantor said firmly, “that is no longer the case.” Congress will officially still be in session the week of Dec 17-21, and perhaps even longer.

    Republican congress members who don’t want to compromise are already planning to dig in for the holiday season. “Some people were like, ‘Let’s book hotel rooms and bring our families out here because we’re not going to fold our tent and give in,’” Rep. Aaron Schock (R-IL) told WaPo.

    As you all know, Congress and Obama are attempting to strike a deal to avert the massive spending cuts and ~$2,000-per-family tax hikes set to kick in on January 1, 2013.

    Via the Washington Post and Politico.

    The US middle class is going to be taxed to oblivion over the next four years

    http://politix.topix.com/homepage/3665-no-christmas-unless-fiscal-cliff-deal-reached

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  40. wreck1080 (3,533 comments) says:

    RB Governor Graeme Wheeler is certainly a friend of the importers.

    He is actively encouraging the NZ dollar to rise in my view.

    Under his comments today, it looks like the NZ dollar will continue to rise (barring unexpected events). It will be interesting to see the effect on the export industry.

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  41. graham (2,211 comments) says:

    Oh dear. I’m not going to argue about the impact of growing a beard on a relationship, that’s too close to Garfield.

    Instead, let’s go back to this. If you change your sex from Pete George to Petra George, then Mrs George is living a completely different life now with Petra George than she was when she originally married Pete George. She is no longer married to Pete George. You do understand that, don’t you?

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  42. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    As you all know, Congress and Obama are attempting to strike a deal to avert the massive spending cuts and ~$2,000-per-family tax hikes set to kick in on January 1, 2013.

    The fallacy of the decade!

    The Messiah has no intention of striking a deal. He will be better off seeing the US going off the cliff, since it means an automatic tax hike on everyone, for which he will conveniently blame the Republicans.

    The Kenyan knows no shame.

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  43. Sonny Blount (1,829 comments) says:

    Pete,

    How many New Zealanders have come up against the problem you describe in the last 10 years?

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  44. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    Graham – yes, I do understand that, while the degree of “completely different life” can be debated it’s likely to substantially change the relationship in some cases. But in others where the relationship has changed from madly in love at marriage to living together as companions it would be much less so.

    But that is a diversion from the issue.

    If a relationship in a marriage changes significantly for any reason should that effectively force a divorce? Or should it be the free choice of the couple how to continue their relationsip and remain married or to get divorced?

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  45. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Manolo (8,320) Says:
    December 6th, 2012 at 9:53 am

    Oh, Manolo, I thought the link would be to an article about Netanyahu! Your description is equally applicable.

    Say, have you got your invite to the weekend’s big party?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/05/hamas-leader-khaled-meshaal-visit-gaza

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  46. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    Multiculturalism Dutch-style: http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/the_dutch_confront_the_racial_divide_too_few_dared_speak_of/

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  47. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    For you Pete: A Belgian man is battling the country’s court system to get his marriage annulled after finding out that his wife of 19 years was born a man.

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11/27/belgian-man-finds-out-his-wife-1-years-was-born-man/?intcmp=obnetwork

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  48. graham (2,211 comments) says:

    *sigh*

    You keep on trying to equate someone changing something about themselves such as a beard, or getting fat, or shaving their head, or buying a Harley (or all four) with someone who was (as transgender people put it) “assigned a sex at birth based on their genitals” – let’s say a man – lives their life quite happily as a man, marries a woman – then suddenly decides that this is wrong and he’s actually a woman.

    They’re *not* *the* *same*. Deciding you’re a completely different person to how you’ve been living is not the same as getting fat.

    (Edit: RightNow, yes I saw that story somewhere else, but decided not to mention it because Pete will quietly reason and debate that story to death now …)

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  49. hj (5,720 comments) says:

    b hudson says:

    So 64% of those surveyed want the population to increase. 40% of those surveyed want the population increase to be extraordinary large (double or more.)

    And you somehow think that survey showed that people don’t want more immigration????

    I think perhaps you need to swot up a bit on reading statistics.
    ….
    5 million 24%
    No more – we’ve got enough. 36%

    that’s 60% wanting 5 million or less (now at 4,448,294 ). Also “80% of our population growth in the last couple of decades has been the net inflow of non NZ citizens”…. so people who grew up and adapted to big cities are having a say over native born New Zealanders.
    http://www.treasury.govt.nz/downloads/pdfs/mi-jarrett-comm.pdf

    There is/ has been massive lobbying for more immigration from the vested interests (according to Gareth Morgan).

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  50. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    The term “Fiscal Cliff’ is really a complete misnomer as the total effect on the deficit in 2013 is estimated to be only $500 billion in a $16 trillion economy and it’s doubtful, anyway, the the Republicans want to go into the next midterms being blamed for tax hikes and a collapsing economy.

    The bigger risk to US citizens is, in fact, the president’s own mindset that is sympathetic to reducing welfare and his apparent willingness to hurt a lot of vulnerable people for less than small change in savings.

    However, for evidence of the triumph of ideology and the protection of privilege look no further than the truly dreadful times coming to Britain:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/dec/05/autumn-statement-osborne-slashes-welfare-bill

    The danger here is that Key and English double down on their own economic incompetence and embark on a similar programme here using the increase in debt partly caused by their tax cuts for the wealthiest as there excuse, even though we are lightly indebted as regards public debt.

    We want the exchange rate to come down? Borrow and build, print and spend!

    It’s times like these a three year electoral cycle ain’t all bad!

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  51. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    They’re *not* *the* *same*. Deciding you’re a completely different person to how you’ve been living is not the same as getting fat.

    Ah, no, they are not a ‘completely different person’. In most respects they are exactly the same person. For example a gender change does not involve a brain replacement.

    In many cases they will be no more different (and debatably it could be less) than a spouse who converts to a religion or changes religion, which can make a substantial difference to how they live their lives.

    If my wife became a devout Christian, or Muslim, or Church of Scientologist, or Mormon, or Krishnan, it would be a major change and have a major effect on our relationship.

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  52. UglyTruth (3,151 comments) says:

    The Kenyan knows no shame.

    The Drudge report is now carrying the story that he was in Pakistan during 1981-1982, the same as bin Laden.

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  53. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    hj

    Still trumped by 64% who want growth – 5m or more.

    You’ll have to try harder.

    Or better yet -actually get some evidence that substantiates the claims you want to make

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  54. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    Borrow and build, print and spend!

    Yep, campaign on rising the cost of living. Go for it Luc. Lets hope Russel keeps it up too.

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  55. graham (2,211 comments) says:

    So you seriously think that if you decide to change from Pete George to Penelope George, that won’t have a major impact on your relationship with your wife?

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  56. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    No graham, I have said it would have a significant impact.

    But that’s not the point. The point is whether all people should have the same legal opportunity to be married or not regardless of any change in circumstances.

    Are you saying that if a relationship in a marriage changes beyond a (non-specified) degree the rights of the legal couple should change?

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  57. hj (5,720 comments) says:

    B hudson says:
    hj

    Still trumped by 64% who want growth – 5m or more.
    ………..
    the clear majority is for 5 million or less not 5 million or more (24% + 36%). Given the number of NZ citizens overseas and natural increase, that suggests we should be putting the brakes on.

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  58. kowtow (6,734 comments) says:

    Transgender women are discriminated against as they have difficulty growing beards and so can’t fully participate in Movember.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsVAYFSEBrA

    Here’s Monty Python’s solution.Buy one.

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  59. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    hj,

    No. Try again. The total (in % terms) of those supporting a growth in population above the 4.4m today (i.e. 5m or more) is 64%.

    5m – 24%
    10m – 24%
    15m – 9%
    As many as possible [i.e. no upper limit] 7%

    Total for growth = 64%
    Total no growth = 36%

    It would seem you can’t read the survey results you published here.

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  60. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    As the reckless Western nations continue their headlong rush into a new, hotter and with exponentially more and greater extreme events, climate era, our problem won’t be how many we will let in – it will be about how many we can keep out.

    I’m of the opinion, after a lifetime of opposition to military adventures, it may be time to buy some F16s and nuclear powered and armed subs etc.

    How many nukes would we need to deter the coming US invasion?

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  61. graham (2,211 comments) says:

    Nooo, I’m saying if one of the marriage partners suddenly decides to change who they are, that’s a whole new ball-game.

    You keep trying to make out that changing your sex is no different to growing a beard, getting religion, or buying a Harley. It IS different. Even the quote on your website from Diane Sparkes alludes to this:

    Each partner is forced by the state to divorce the other even though love and support has maintained the relationship through arguably one of the most difficult situations any married couple will ever face.

    Very few people refer to growing a beard/buying a Harley/getting fat as “arguably one of the most difficult situations any married couple will ever face.”

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  62. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    Furhter to trivialrev’s (hinamanu) comment: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100281263
    Geithner: Ready to Go Over ‘Cliff’ If Taxes Don’t Rise

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  63. hj (5,720 comments) says:

    bhudson (2,872) Says:
    December 6th, 2012 at 11:28 am

    hj,

    No. Try again. The total (in % terms) of those supporting a growth in population above the 4.4m today (i.e. 5m or more) is 64%.

    a clear majority support population growth of no more than 12% above what we have today.

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  64. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    7 years and 2 years…sick.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8044572/Torture-dad-has-appeal-dismissed

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  65. hj (5,720 comments) says:

    60% of New Zealanders want a population of no more than 5 million…. (if it’s alright with the elites that is)

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  66. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    “I’m not going to cut myself off from reading and criticising NZ media”

    Well good for you CG, but I am sure you understand they don’t really care. They know what they are doing. They know what they want and they will not be diverted from their mission by blog criticism or the like. The only way that these subversive scum will be defeated is by not reading buying or contributing in anyway possible to the economic structures that allow them their platform from which they broadcast their statist propaganda.

    Read my latest blog post for an idea of how bad things really are. Its not so much the fault of a subversive media as it is the failure of the National Party to vigorously and courageously fight them.

    http://truebluenz.com/2012/12/06/the-collaborators/

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  67. RRM (8,997 comments) says:

    I’ve got an old 308 in pieces but complete the shed Baiter. Let me know if you want any help lining the National Party up against a brick wall and shooting them.

    Since that is what you’re advocating in your latest post after all.

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  68. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    Very good Redbaiter, exceopt that I see virtually the same lament on THe Standard with ‘right’ and ‘left’ transposed.

    One interesting point you made:

    You can see their supporters in the comments section of Whale’s blog, or Kiwiblog or other recognised “right of center” publications. Frantically supporting John “Pétain” Key and the Vichy Nationals only because the alternative is worse.

    I don’t actually see a large amount of frantic support (or even mild support) for Key and National here or at Whale Oil.

    Ganging up and attempting to ridicule or distract anyone who expresses unauthorised or unapproved views.

    Ah, but how do we know who is authorised and who is not? For example, who approved the 20 year plan?

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  69. Reid (15,608 comments) says:

    The only way that these subversive scum will be defeated is by not reading buying or contributing in anyway possible to the economic structures that allow them their platform from which they broadcast their statist propaganda.

    RB how precisely can we do that unless we’re living in a cave in the mountains, surviving on C-Rations and the occasional rabbit, and never visiting the local town, or talking to anyone, ever again? Because I don’t want to do any of that if it can possibly be avoided.

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  70. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    Why not?

    You’re getting total bullshit now that does not allow you any means to make rational and informed decisions.

    Fact is you’re better off without it.

    Ever heard of “journolist”??

    Obama was elected by a legion of low information misinformed Jerry Springer addicted dumbfucks.

    Want to be one of those?

    Just keep patronising the MSM or reading the deceitful crap from the so called journalists who work for them and you will be.

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  71. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Climate news

    Today:

    “More than five inches of snow was predicted to fall on high ground in northern England and Scotland on Thursday, while up to 20mm of rain will affect the South.

    Forecasters expect temperatures to remain bitterly cold until next week, with overnight temperatures plunging as low as 21F (-6C) on Wednesday night. “

    And twelve years ago:

    “Britain’s winter ends tomorrow with further indications of a striking environmental change: snow is starting to disappear from our lives.

    According to Dr David Viner, a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia,within a few years winter snowfall will become “a very rare and exciting event”.

    “Children just aren’t going to know what snow is,” he said.”

    Yet we see people on KB quoting the University of East Anglia as a “credible source” to support their politically motivated hoax of AGW.

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  72. Viking2 (10,747 comments) says:

    Tornado hits Auckland: 2 dead

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8044114/Tornado-hits-Auckland-2-dead

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  73. Reid (15,608 comments) says:

    How many nukes would we need to deter the coming US invasion?

    About 12,000 Luc. We’d have to invade Australia and enslave the whole population in a non-stop effort to dig up enough yellow-cake to make it even mildly possible I’m afraid, and the Australians seem to like their yellow-cake. Our one chance might be to use our undercover agent Hulun to subvert the UN so it seized them all and gave them to us, on the grounds we are known to be international nice guys, so it’s much fairer if we hold onto them.

    On the plus side this makes Wussel’s pwinting pwan much more viable for if we’ve got nukes, we can make anyone accept the Kiwi, at any price, and if they don’t, well…

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  74. Viking2 (10,747 comments) says:

    Second Tornado hits Auckland.
    Winkleman has just booted the police and the crown for touch.

    Dotcom can pursue case against police, GCSB

    The internet tycoon was also cleared to pursue a case for damages against the police and the Government Communications Security Bureau in a judgment which has opened the Government’s handling of the criminal copyright case for its harshest criticism yet.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10852335Yeh.

    The more I see of this Lady Judge the more I like her style.

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  75. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    hj,

    Your attempt to make that survey conform to your views on immigration is a huge fail.

    64% surveyed want NZ’s population to be 12% or greater than it is now.

    (Using the stats from the survey you posted.)

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  76. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Auckland heavy rain
    Estimated 50mm hour+

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  77. Longknives (4,051 comments) says:

    Jesus Christ! Saw the Tornado out West and am now getting drowned in the rain. I’m moving back down South…

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  78. niggly (779 comments) says:

    Letter to the Editor of the day.

    Where are the Greens hiding, they need to debunk these facts somehow, surely? ;-)

    Arctic thaws come and go

    OPINION: I was interested in Arctic route opens (World, Dec 4).

    During WWII, the reduction in sea ice in the Arctic Ocean prompted the German high command to send the Komet, a German freighter converted into an armed raider, across the northern route in early summer 1940, from the Atlantic through the Bering Strait into the Pacific Ocean.

    There it created havoc to Allied shipping.

    If one researches Russian shipping records from around the 1800s, it will be seen that this freezing and thawing of the northern route tends to be cyclical and not an unusual event.

    ROD DAVIE

    Peka Peka
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/letters-to-the-editor/8042528/Letter-Arctic-thaws-come-and-go

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  79. hj (5,720 comments) says:

    bhudson (2,873) Says:
    December 6th, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    hj,

    Your attempt to make that survey conform to your views on immigration is a huge fail.

    64% surveyed want NZ’s population to be 12% or greater than it is now.
    ………

    but once you get to 5 million the proportion saying No more – we’ve got enough = 60%. Of course we will be needing more immigrants at that stage: it will be essential for the well being of the country blah, blah!

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  80. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    California or Europe? Both are bankrupt, anyway.
    http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalertlatest/2012/12/high-income-californians-may-pay-nations-highest-tax-rate.html

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  81. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Immigration
    Degrades the environment the very reason that many stay for The more people the more stress on the environment.
    This includes the water quality of your local beach or the ability to take part in new Zealands most popular and most economically productive sport fishing. Many of us enjoy the country’s bountiful opportunities of outdoor pursuits.

    It also impacts on transport and housing infrastructure. Auckland is paying for the increased population. In the cost of having to expand compounded by a constant round of infrastructure rebuilding. As most of the immigrant stay in the city. Many begrudge our largest city even the share of funds the region is entitled to.

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  82. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    For once the hypocrite socialist Goff is right, although the did nothing on this matter while he was in power:
    http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8576016/mps-ponder-aussie-treatment-of-nzers

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  83. Lance (2,311 comments) says:

    @Manolo
    I agree it sucks, but it is possible to apply for a standard visa (like the rest of the world) and have the full list of entitlements that way. Excludes many though as the bar is high, like you have to actually be skilled.

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  84. calendar girl (1,108 comments) says:

    “The only way that these subversive scum will be defeated is by not reading buying or contributing in anyway possible to the economic structures that allow them their platform ….”

    Sorry, Red. I don’t buy into such extreme positions or name-calling. I don’t see New Zealand msm outlets like Stuff, the Herald, TV1, TV3 et al. as “subversive scum”. In my view, many of their editorial people are socialist-leaning, are misguided ideologically, and are very poorly educated – especially when it comes to understanding anything about business or the workings of a market economy. But they are entitled to hold and express their views, and even to try and convince others to adopt such views. It’s called freedom of expression.

    What I would prefer to see is NZ’s business organisations and individual, business-literate people constantly challenging those views vigorously in the public arena (in the msm, blogs and elsewhere) so that fellow-NZers are not allowed to gain an impression that steering the country further to the left economically is our only hope for a better future. No one person or political leader will do it alone. Nor will a lone “reformer” like yourself, unless you can actually persuade people to listen to your message, without your constantly berating and alienating them.

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  85. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    It’s called freedom of expression.

    You obviously need educating yourself on what “freedom of expression” actually means.

    For example, one thing it does not mean is that people are compelled to buy newspapers or watch television when these outlets are controlled by subversives who are out to deliberately misinform and intentionally alter political perceptions.

    Which appears to be your thesis.

    Only government action can offend against traditional freedom of expression, and you will note I am not calling for that. And I never do.

    What I would prefer to see is NZ’s business organisations and individual, business-literate people constantly challenging those views vigorously in the public arena (in the msm, blogs and elsewhere)

    This is an unbelieveable expression of naivety. Don’t you think they fucking well would if they could? Ask Owen McShane for one example of why he is persona non grata on Radio New Zealand.

    These outlets (apart from the blogosphere, and that soon will be) are all controlled by left wing gate keepers, and they will not allow alternative opinions except in token instances or when it suits them. Or as a target of ridicule.

    You need to wake up. It is unaware head in sand dreamers like you who allow the left to dominate our social and cultural and political condition.

    You and your soft political ignorance are why we have been losing for so long and why we are so deep in the shit right now.

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  86. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    Very well put Calendar Girl, but as you can already see trying to explain something reasonably to Redbaiter is like trying to explain the birds and the bees to a crocodile (the type brilliantly photographed by Chthoniid).

    All it does is gets you added to his database of about four and a half million Kiwis who just don’t get his brilliiant strategy so therefore must be filed as lefty scum.

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  87. cha (3,545 comments) says:

    Ask Owen McShane

    You first.

    /

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  88. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    Oh yeah that’s right.

    You got me for once Cha, and on a real big issue too.

    Well done.

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  89. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    What I would prefer to see is NZ’s business organisations and individual, business-literate people constantly challenging those views vigorously in the public arena

    Many of us would like to see that. However, the left leaning media are careful not to give equal representation to anyone who goes against their socialist ideology. It is not a level playing field. Often when alternative views are allowed to be aired, they are edited and spun in order to misrepresent them.

    I agree that people should be allow to hold/express whatever views they like. The problem is that many views are denied a voice in contemporary New Zealand.

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  90. Weihana (4,475 comments) says:

    Denied a voice? That others do not assist in facilitating the dissemination of your views does not imply you are denied a voice. If enough people share a viewpoint then there exists a market to pander to them. Fox News does it superbly. Leighton Smith gives it a good go as well.

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  91. Reid (15,608 comments) says:

    Denied a voice?

    Weihana the point is in context by proportion the lefties dominate. You idiots have both TV channels completely sewn up. Leaving enough truth for those intelligent enough to explore to find out for themselves, but not enough to promulgate it 24/7/365 ubiquitously, as you guys do.

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  92. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Whales having a go at a RW MSM source try reading the truth
    Or go to red’s blog
    It could give him almost nearly fifty hits

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  93. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    i wonder what Griff was trying to say @ 2.24
    can anyone deceipher ?

    Regardless, he did come in with a stunner @ 5.28.

    Well done Griff. Two profound comments.

    Lets have another one.

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  94. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    “can anyone deceipher ?”

    Sure.

    Griff was trying to say he is a politically incoherent fool who does not know his arse from his elbow.

    And it was well said IMHO.

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  95. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Denied a voice? That others do not assist in facilitating the dissemination of your views does not imply you are denied a voice.

    Not true

    Explain so called “hate speech” laws.

    You know the one. That is the law where Maori can make openly racist comments about Europeans, but Europeans can not return the favour in kind.

    The MSM is extremely and openly left wing. It is no secret to anyone. Denying it eats away your credibility.

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  96. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Find another friend red
    How cute

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  97. Weihana (4,475 comments) says:

    Reid (12,540) Says:
    December 6th, 2012 at 5:23 pm

    Denied a voice?

    Weihana the point is in context by proportion the lefties dominate. You idiots have both TV channels completely sewn up. Leaving enough truth for those intelligent enough to explore to find out for themselves, but not enough to promulgate it 24/7/365 ubiquitously, as you guys do.

    I wasn’t aware I had a stake in either of the TV channels. I certainly don’t watch them very often. Suffice to say if there is a great untapped market out there then put your money where your mouth is and start up your own news channel.

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  98. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    Recompensing your cronies: http://michellemalkin.com/2012/12/05/christmas-for-obama-bundlers/

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  99. RF (1,141 comments) says:

    What the hell is Phil Goff on about. Is his hair dye seeping into his brain cells. He is still having a go at McCully.

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  100. Weihana (4,475 comments) says:

    Kea,

    Not true

    Explain so called “hate speech” laws.

    Nice switching of the goal posts. What you initially said was:

    However, the left leaning media are careful not to give equal representation to anyone who goes against their socialist ideology. It is not a level playing field.

    Media bias and hate speech laws are not the same thing.

    For the record I would support getting rid of section 61 of the Human Rights Act. Racists are entitled to their (stupid) opinions as much as anyone provided their speech meets the standards as would apply to any other type of speech (e.g. does not incite violence).

    You know the one. That is the law where Maori can make openly racist comments about Europeans, but Europeans can not return the favour in kind.

    Yeah I think you’re imagining that law. Nowhere under s61 is there an exception for Maori.

    The MSM is extremely and openly left wing. It is no secret to anyone. Denying it eats away your credibility.

    Everyone sees the bias they oppose and never the bias they favour.

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  101. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Yeah I think you’re imagining that law. Nowhere under s61 is there an exception for Maori.

    NZ must be the only place in the world where saying, handouts should be given on the basis of need NOT race, is screamed down as racist in the media and by the race relations commissioner. They are still going on about years later !

    A Maori can call Europeans any thing they like and even make comments about killing them. No problem. There is an exception for Maori, but it is not written in s61. I actually like the outspoken Maori MP’s. I just want the same freedoms extended to all people.

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  102. RF (1,141 comments) says:

    Kea

    I believe that Billy T James was a true reflection of the Maori Race.

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  103. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    The people who are really behind this have far darker motives. They are the puppet masters. They want power. AGW is simply a means to an end. The destruction of free market, capitalist, democratic society, is their intention.

    Tell me more Kea about this global conspiracy.

    Who has been destroying the free market, capitalist, democratic society.

    How have they taken over the evil scientists? How did they take over the New Zealand government, The American government, the UN and all the rest. Who planned it all?

    I do so love a good global conspiracy

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  104. Reid (15,608 comments) says:

    Griff, read this.

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  105. Than (376 comments) says:

    Griff: I just tried reading Redbaiter’s blog. I only got halfway through a post before giving up in disgust.

    Red – all I can say is I am extremely, extremely glad your opinions represent a negligible and irrelevant minority. I have never been more grateful for our communist, liberal education system.

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  106. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    Stay away in future Than, I don’t write for the Jerry Springer set.

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  107. Reid (15,608 comments) says:

    I have never been more grateful for our communist, liberal education system.

    You mean the one which thinks it’s a good idea to teach 12 year olds how to slip a condom over a life-sized anatomically correct dildo?

    Crikey.

    Er.

    Why? Are you grateful, I mean.

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  108. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    You know as soon as you mention the scriptures Reid…..
    You lose Athiests.

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  109. big bruv (12,388 comments) says:

    Griff

    It seems that if Bedwetter had his way he would force all of our kids to suffer through religious study and make attendance at church on a Sunday compulsory for all.

    Imagine the fun the priests would have with all those kids hanging around.

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  110. Reid (15,608 comments) says:

    You know as soon as you mention the scriptures Reid…..

    You should keep reading it Griff. It’s a big book with lots of stuff in it. Just scroll through a couple of chapters and you’ll see. It’s all history. Spelled out in detail. You asked, that tells you what you asked for. Read it. Like I said, it’s a big book.

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  111. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    I do so love a good global conspiracy

    Hay Griff tell us about the conspiracy that is making record cold snaps and snow in the UK. All to discredit East Anglia climate scientists? Did they use HAARP to make it snow and hide the rise?

    Is it finance by “BIG OIL” like you have been telling us all along?

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  112. big bruv (12,388 comments) says:

    Reid

    It is indeed a big book, however that is about the only thing you have said that is true about it.

    That book you mention is full of hate, lies (it is after all nothing more than a work of fiction) and bigotry.

    The world would be a far better place without that book, we would have almost no wars, a lot less people and we would be able to combat diseases like AIDS a lot easier. Our kids would also be a hell of a lot safer than they are now.

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  113. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Another generation of repressed homo created by the loving church’s priesthood and inspired by the continuation of pre teen sodomy by the moral leaders of the church

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  114. Reid (15,608 comments) says:

    By all means cite factual errors bb. Go ahead. Give us the page numbers and let’s discuss. But facts are facts and so what if you don’t like it because it offends you. So what. Is it a fact? Yes or no. That’s the only relevant question. Honestly I’ve never understood why people get excited about facts. I mean, why? What the heck is wrong with someone who sees a fact, a thing that’s there, there it is, and proceeds to get all emotional and pretend it’s not a fact after all simply because they don’t like it? I mean crikey.

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  115. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Explain the global conspiracy
    Don’t keep such major news to yourself kea

    The people who are really behind this have far darker motives. They are the puppet masters. They want power. AGW is simply a means to an end. The destruction of free market, capitalist, democratic society, is their intention.

    Who are the people, the puppet masters
    Does your phone click, do you see men in dark glasses following you, have the aliens Inserted your anal probe yet?

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  116. Than (376 comments) says:

    Redbaiter: With absolutely no hesitation, I will promise to never visit your blog site again.

    Reid: I have tried reading the Bible, starting in Genesis and working my way through. I didn’t get beyond Leviticus – the constant violent atrocities of the Old Testament put me off. I am giving it a second chance by starting fresh with the New Testament. So far (halfway through Matthew) it has been boring and uninspiring, but not outright distasteful like the Old Testament was.

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  117. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    Griff, haven’t you ever got anything but feeble attempts at ridicule you pathetic mental midget?

    You’re just like every other commie, in that as soon as any of the pillars of your leftist temple are attacked, your defence is completely hollow and always devoid of logic.

    The underlying message of almost every one of your sad contributions is “how dare you attack my false idols”

    You mean the one which thinks it’s a good idea to teach 12 year olds how to slip a condom over a life-sized anatomically correct dildo?

    Yes Reid, that is the one he means. He’s glad to see unknowing communist party apparatchiks (aka teachers) assuming the role of parents.

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  118. big bruv (12,388 comments) says:

    Reid

    You made the claim that the book is a historic one. Therefore you (I assume) think that what is in it happens to be true.

    Now, tell me how that dude parted the seas. Remind me how this bloke called Jesus went around healing the sick and restoring sight to the blind.

    After all that, and if you do read it with both eyes open and you still believe it then come and see me, I have a bridge that I want to sell you.

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  119. Viking2 (10,747 comments) says:

    Meet the Coolest Mayor in the World
    In “have you met” on November 28, 2012 at 2:35 pm
    Meet Jon Gnarr, mayor of Reykjavik, Iceland’s largest (and coolest) city.

    http://messynessychic.com/2012/11/28/meet-the-coolest-mayor-in-the-world/

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  120. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    “By all means cite factual errors bb. Go ahead.”

    For fuck’s sake Reid, he’s just a low IQ low information troll.

    Why the fuck would you bother?

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  121. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    RF at 7:04 pm

    What the hell is Phil Goff on about. Is his hair dye seeping into his brain cells. He is still having a go at McCully.

    Labour strategy seems to be to keep repeating mistakes. David Clark is doing similar today. Shearer was continuing with the Australia campaign after Ardern was hammered on it.

    Either they don’t realise they are douchebagging themselves or they think that if they repeat crap enough people will start to believe it. Probably a bit of both.

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  122. Reid (15,608 comments) says:

    Try Romans and Ephesians Than.

    Those are two of my favourites. Romans holds many lessons and explanations on faith. On the first few readings it’s hard to understand but it becomes clearer. Ephesians is a very poetic letter from Paul to one of the original Christian Church communities.

    It helps to sincerely ask God for discernment and understanding just before reading it. God bless.

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  123. Reid (15,608 comments) says:

    You made the claim that the book is a historic one.

    No I said it cites lot of historic facts bb. Names, dates, places, events. Last I heard, those are some of the essential attributes of something that claims to be a “fact.”

    So if you want to scroll to any page and pick a name, date, place or event and discuss it, go ahead. Otherwise don’t ask me about biblical stories, because that’s not what my link referred to and the story you ask about is also not what my link even mentioned, so somewhere along the line bb, something’s happened and you’ve invented some reality that only you are in. Possibly you’ve crossed over into Langolier country bb.

    Good luck…

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  124. Reid (15,608 comments) says:

    P.S. Than. I recommend the King James version. It’s the most faithful of them all to the Greek and Hebrew.

    http://www.blueletterbible.org has all the versions.

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  125. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    You mean the one which thinks it’s a good idea to teach 12 year olds how to slip a condom over a life-sized anatomically correct dildo?

    Why not? Did you at least have an inkling what those different bits you found out boys and girls have around the back of the bike shed are for:wink:

    Shit red what world do you live in?
    They even get little Cristian girls to swear to be virgins are you telling me those little girls don’t know what a virgin is.

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  126. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    Oil industry funding nutters:

    Nature Conservancy lists BP as one of its business partners. The Conservancy also has given BP a seat on its International Leadership Council and has accepted nearly $10 million in cash and land contributions from BP and affiliated corporations over the years.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/23/AR2010052302164_pf.html

    between 2007 and 2010 the Sierra Club accepted over $25 million in donations from the gas industry, mostly from…Chesapeake Energy – one of the biggest gas drilling companies in the U.S

    http://www.webcitation.org/65V1HMaH8

    Four big international companies, including the oil giant Exxon Mobil, said yesterday that they would give Stanford University $225 million over 10 years for research on ways to meet growing energy needs without worsening global warming.

    Exxon Mobil, whose pledge of $100 million makes it the biggest of the four contributors, issued a statement saying new techniques for producing energy while reducing emissions of heat-trapping greenhouse gases were ”vital to meeting energy needs in the industrialized and developing world.

    In 2000, Ford and Exxon Mobil’s global rival, BP, gave $20 million to Princeton to start a similar climate and energy research program.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/21/us/exxon-led-group-is-giving-a-climate-grant-to-stanford.html

    Has it occurred to you that “big oil” figured out long ago how to profit either way from climatology griff? Just like the big insurance/reinsurance companies who get to increase their premiums, and the big financial institutions who want to run carbon exchanges.

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  127. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Yes RN lets hear your global conspiracy
    All the details please government’s scientific bodies that have nothing to do with climate change everyone I has named as involved.
    Kea insists on keeping his perpetrators hidden.

    I like to know all the details of any conspiracy in some detail.

    This one is a massive Global hoax after all.

    So tune your tin hat RN and tell us all about it. :lol:

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  128. Than (376 comments) says:

    Reid: I was intending to simply read through from beginning to end. So (sincerely) thank you, I will now read those books first. To be honest I doubt they will change my view, but I will read them and try to keep an open mind

    Apologies, I didn’t actually answer your question regarding sex education. Myself, my peers, and those younger than us were all educated under the system you describe. As far as I can tell (including my personal experience) they are well-adjusted people, no better or worse prepared for the world than any other generation. I haven’t heard any of them calling for people to be lined up and shot, which I regard as a positive.

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  129. mikenmild (8,917 comments) says:

    Yes Griff, for the biggest conspiracy of all time we should see a bit more evidence. If the IPCC etc is a massive hoax, it sure shows how it was so easy to fake the moon landings!

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  130. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    This could get inteersting.

    Just how wrong can you get it?

    Word is that a senior Labour MP (who will go unnamed) has been lobbying National Council to put rules in place for party members who participate in the blogosphere. It appears they don’t like the idea that members might voice their concerns about the way their party is run. I can only assume that there would have to be some kind of a process whereby members who broke these rules would face a loss of membership or some other form of censure.

    The embers have already been glowering. This could be petrol.

    http://thestandard.org.nz/just-how-wrong-can-you-get-it/

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  131. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    Get a grip Griff, you keep claiming the oil industry is funding ‘the nutters’ but it’s easy to show (as I have done) that they actually fund climatology by more than 100 times anything skeptics have received.

    Try to be a bit more objective there guy, that’s all.

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  132. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    And this http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/rss/from:1997.0/trend/plot/rss/from:1997.0

    :)

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  133. calendar girl (1,108 comments) says:

    RB @ 4:08 – “For example, one thing it [freedom of expression] does not mean is that people are compelled to buy newspapers or watch television when these outlets are controlled by subversives who are out to deliberately misinform and intentionally alter political perceptions.”

    Please, Red, don’t put words in my mouth – I never claimed any compulsion on anyone to read newspapers or watch TV of any kind. You said to me, in your customarily offensive way: “Why read those Pravda outlets anyway??” and I gave my reasons, in a reasonable manner, for keeping abreast of their material and taking my limited opportunities to present opposing views.

    You yourself have no monopoly of interpretation of the term “freedom of expression”, Red. Your bluster, bullying, personal name-calling and crude poverty of language do your views little credit in that very context. That applies also to the causes that you espouse. But, Red, you too enjoy “freedom of expression”. I respect that freedom which you exercise freely; why do you find it obligatory on your part to abuse mine? (Even though we may be basically in agreement on certain fundamental principles – if only one could get behind your politico-macho facade of outrage to find out.)

    You contend that “Only government action can offend against traditional freedom of expression …” While that is a challenging observation, it’s not true – at least that’s my personal view. Witness widespread attempts to intimidate and muzzle people when they express views that offend some on the left, or views that offend certain minorities such as Maori, women or gay people. You yourself are not bad at such offending “against traditional freedom of expression”, Red. I expect that many readers tend to turn away from expressing their own views fully in the face of your personalised fusillades of intemperance and extremism.

    Finally, did you really mean to commend me to “Ask Owen McShane for one example of why he is persona non grata on Radio New Zealand”? I used to follow Mr McShane’s contemporary views with interest, and agreed with many of them, but sadly that element of my wider reading ceased with his untimely death nine months or so ago.

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  134. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Come on RN
    Yours is the biggest global conspiracy I have ever heard of. Do tell more. Who is in charge of subverting the governments of the world ? How have they taken over the peer review process? Who is directing the royal society and the American academy of science? So many people involved its huge.

    At least my conspiracy has names, dates, tax returns ,accounts all the rest of the paper work and a reasonable amount of probability what do you have?

    http://monthlyreview.org/2012/05/01/petroleum-and-propaganda
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Global_warming_conspiracy_theory

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  135. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    Wow, your link:
    “Powell details the support of ExxonMobil for denialism, but omits the combative Koch brothers, owners of Koch Energy, the world’s largest privately held energy company. ExxonMobil is the biggest funder of global-warming denialism, spending nearly $16 million on more than forty organizations over the period 1998–2005.”

    $16 million huh? Geez, that really puts their $100 million to Stanford in perspective.

    I’m going to have to start calling climatologists oil industry shills

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  136. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Dear dear ask right now or Kea a question about the global conspirawhacky and they just can not answer it. Who is conspiring to control the world.

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  137. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    Well clearly I can’t tell you that griff, or I’d have to kill you.

    But its clear to see that big oil has climatologists in its pay. Reid can fill you in on the rest.

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  138. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    poor old Griff.

    Have you ever considered getting a life ?

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  139. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    “at least that’s my personal view.”

    A view that reinforces my original point, in that you apprently do not understand the issue, so while you so offensively preach to me your patronising crap on how I should behave to receive the favour of my socialist betters, you still show a stark inability to understand that interaction among the free market and free people is not anything that can be accurately described as limiting freedom of expression.

    I can say what I want, and so can TV 3. It is only government who can legislate to control what is said, and right under your nose they have done so frequently over the last few decades, and will continue down that path no doubt with the blessing of lame and tame peasant ignorami like yourself.

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  140. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    Follow on-

    And if “extremism” means that I expect the National Party to live up to the principles it was founded upon then I plead guilty without a skerrick of regret.

    And if you think those principles are extreme then its you that is at fault and not myself, for they were principles that served this country and the Nats well for many years.

    “To promote good citizenship and self-reliance; to combat communism and socialism; to maintain freedom of contract; to encourage private enterprise; to safeguard individual rights and the privilege of ownership; to oppose interference by the State in business, and State control of industry”

    Today, the Nats have disavowed and ridicule those very principles that were the foundation of so much success for this country. I will criticise them harshly for this betrayal. Whether you and the like soft left wing that today supports them (and their treachery) like it or not.

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  141. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    One thing you can be sure of,

    Little Griff never went behind the bike sheds, even on his own,
    let alone with any “Cristians” ( sic)

    Seems like he heard about what some kids did somewhere but.

    Naughty kids, eh! Griff.

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  142. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Weaker than expected wage growth as the reason for an increase in the budget deficit over forecast

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10852235

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  143. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    @SPC,

    Headline[yours]: We haven’t sold enough, so let’s borrow and give everyone some more money.

    The only thing those results and news headline prove is that we have to sell more of our goods. Any form of welfare handout or other govt spending works counter to that effect.

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  144. calendar girl (1,108 comments) says:

    Incoherent ramblings of rage, Red. Epitomises why you spend your time conversing with yourself. What a waste.

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  145. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    CG,

    Red never debases himself to read such filthy subversive lefty communist propaganda feeds.

    No. He contents himself to read those bastions of conservative wisdom; the founts of like-minded wisdom that prove that all that is good in the world is all that this is not what his opponents think.

    He listens to what he wants to hear.

    That way he is never wrong..

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  146. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    “Incoherent ramblings of rage, Red.”

    Its another indication of your crippled liberal political perspectives that you perceive my direct mode of address as an expression of rage.

    Break out of the PC padded cell for fuck’s sake.

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  147. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Beryl you know I can not give names that would not be fair
    Except maybe denominations that would be ok
    That’s the Anglican priest and Pentecostal “pastors?” daughters in the area Plus the daughter of quite a well-known missionary. :wink: And her J W mate.

    Let me guess you were playing rugby

    Running around on a field chasing a bladder in a cover.

    In some ancient ritual that involves a scrum where you all get down and sniff arses.

    Then showering with the boys down the club.

    Followed by a huge piss up

    The pinnacle of human achievement that is

    Playing the ancient game of thugby :grin:

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  148. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    The median wage is $20 an hour, the average wage $25 an hour

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10852254

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  149. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    “That way he is never wrong..”

    Ha ha that’s funny.

    Here are you and your National Party mates about to hand the country over to the Communist Coalition and you’re telling me you’re doing it right??

    FFS, anyone with even half a brain would have to question why the country keeps sliding to the left, and understand that the main reason it is happening is the impotence of the National Party.

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  150. eszett (2,272 comments) says:

    I think you mean your very own impotence, red, or more precisely, the sheer and outright irrelevance of your bizarre worldview.

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  151. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    ” Who is in charge of subverting the governments of the world ? ”

    Sad lamer.

    Leaving aside the pitifully infantile phrasing of the question, the UN is behind much of the leftist nonsense that prevails in the west, along with organisations like Socialist International, a club that most left wing politicians (including most NZ left wing politicians) belong to and the means by which they co-ordinate global strategy to bring down capitalism.

    Here is their home page-

    http://www.socialistinternational.org/

    Here is a list of countries where their members are holding power-

    http://www.socialistinternational.org/images/dynamicImages/files/Member_Parties_in_Govt%20Dec12.pdf

    Helen Klark was/ is prominent in SI, and has now moved on to the UN. Anyone who claims there is no left wing globally co-ordinated political strategy is just another head in the sand denier of reality.

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  152. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    “the sheer and outright irrelevance of your bizarre worldview.”

    Don’t you sad commie robots ever get tired of the same old propaganda?

    In fact my views have wide support, as can be demonstrated on Whale, where votes for and against give me an approval rating probably 4 or 5 times as favourable as Pete George for example.

    And probably as the most favourable commenter over all.

    You’re just a cowardly liar, with no proof for your constant smears and baseless assertions.

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  153. mikenmild (8,917 comments) says:

    Hey, Redbaiter gets more support on the Slater-blog. That tends to confirm my opinion of the relative merits of Kiwiblog and Slater-blog.

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  154. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    Political-correctness gone mad: http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_22133907/seniors-decry-ban-christmas-tree-their-complex-newhall

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  155. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    That tends to confirm my opinion of the relative merits of Kiwiblog and Slater-blog.

    @comrade mike: What the fuck are you doing here then?

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  156. mikenmild (8,917 comments) says:

    Um, by relative merits you may not have realised that I am praising the ‘relative’ sanity of some, but by no means all, of the Kiwiblog community when compared to Whale’s site, which I suggest would be a more logical home base for the likes of you and Redbaiter.

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  157. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    Dynastic dreams: http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/Michelle-Obama-for-Senate-PPP-Says-Yes-182374861.html?dr

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  158. eszett (2,272 comments) says:

    In fact my views have wide support, as can be demonstrated on Whale, where votes for and against give me an approval rating probably 4 or 5 times as favourable as Pete George for example.

    ROFTL.

    That’s your “wide support”? On Whaleoil you get 4-5 times more than pete george likes than pete george?
    How pathetically sad.

    The “wide support” is very much part of this fantasy of yours.

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  159. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    That wide support exists on NZ’s most popular political blog.

    It is a fact.

    You have nothing but cowardly lies and smears, and nothing that isn’t any more than the most bigoted hate filled opinion.

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  160. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    “Um, by relative merits you may not have realised that I am praising the ‘relative’ sanity of some, but by no means all, of the Kiwiblog community ”

    Of course, anyone who doesn’t buy into the same beltway elitist opinions as you and the rest of the desk piloting shiney arsed bureaucrats is insane.

    You need to do some research on the historical origins of that kind of attitude. You could start by reading Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn’s “The Gulag Archipelago”, detailing the world of prison camps, secret police, informers, spies and interrogators that characterised Stalinist Russia.

    The text is based on the author’s own experience of 11 years in labour camps and the testimony of 200 other survivors. Most were incarcerated because they were adjudicated as insane for resisting the collectivist tyranny that killed millions of Russians.

    In fact it is you and your robber baron arrogant ilk and your dopey uninformed urban liberal army who are completely out of touch with real NZ.

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  161. thedavincimode (6,133 comments) says:

    Calm down old dear. Express medical courier is on the way, so just make a nice cup of tea and the meds will be with you shortly.

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  162. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    You just keep on doing your best for your lefty masters fool.

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