Men only clubs
December 5th, 2012 at 11:00 am by David FarrarTracey Chatterton at Stuff reports:
A partner in a Napier legal firm is boycotting the annual Law Society Christmas party because it is being held in a club that will not allow women as members.
Alison McEwan, of Langley Twigg Law, recently tweeted: “The Law Society is having their annual Xmas do at Hawke’s Bay Club which does not allow female members – so I won’t go.”
Ms McEwan was reluctant to talk to The Dominion Post because two of her senior partners were “stalwarts” of the club, but she did say: “Women had to fight to get the vote. I’m not prepared to let that part of our history go, I’m not prepared to take that for granted.”
President Alan Cooper confirmed that the Hawke’s Bay Club, established in 1863, had never had a female member.
“It’s been this way for 150 years,” he said. “Why would a woman want to be a member?”
He said it was not deliberate discrimination. “There’s areas of the club where you can entertain women.”
What the bedrooms?
Now don’t get me wrong. I support the right of the club to be exclusionary in its membership. They are a private club.
But what I don’t get is why would anyone want to belong to a club that bans women?
I couldn’t think of anything worse to belong to (well maybe Grey Power).
Tags: women
December 5th, 2012 at 11:03 am
A partner in a law firm tweeting.
Good grief.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:03 am
Come back to us when you’ve been married for more than a decade.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:07 am
I can’t understand why any one but men would want to go to a women only gym
[DPF: Totally different. You don't generally parade around a club in skimpy clothing and lycra]
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:07 am
She’s welcome and free to decline the invitation.
Vote:A private club is just that: private.
December 5th, 2012 at 11:09 am
“I support the right of the club to be exclusionary in its membership”. But you don’t get why would anyone want to belong to a club that bans women? Because the members don’t want women there. I would have thought that was very easy to “get”. Sort of like women’s Gyms don’t want men there, and they too have members.
I doubt that Ms McEwan will be missed from the party.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:10 am
DPF,
I think you are conflating an absence of women members in the Hawke’s Bay Club with a ban.
As Manolo says the club is private and is free to set it’s own rules.
[DPF: Not at all. Women are not eligible to join. That is a ban]
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:13 am
Yes ,let’s attack every last tradition we have,in the name of so called progress and equality!
And when all thats done do we have a better,happier, healthier society? Fuck no.
[DPF: You mean like the tradition of women not voting, marital rape, marriage at puberty etc?]
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:13 am
A last bastion in the PC age. Probably cause same sex gay’s can’t speak out against it and prove them selves hypocrites
hahaha
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:18 am
ps
Just about everyone had to fight to get the vote. Nothing exclusive or gallant about the women doing it,but the media and feminists and their enablers seem to want to put them on a hallowed pedestal.
Some day prisoners will get the vote too. Now there’s a noble worthy cause in the name of equality,progressive politics and human rights!
Goose gander.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:18 am
Good grief, next they’ll be allowing women access to the billiard room in the Wellington Club!
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:19 am
Stupid Bitch What about Womens Bowling Clubs and Womens Golf Clubs Never heard of them you moron Probus Zonta Town Womens Guild Country Womens Institute Travel Club
All clubs for women.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:21 am
Like many wimmin lawyers she is of the screeching sisterhood
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:26 am
http://www.boreme.com/posting.php?id=1316
Vote:An absolute classic and one of the funniest things I have ever seen on the interthingie
December 5th, 2012 at 11:28 am
One-sided reporting. If you’re a bloke try joining Zonta, Probus, Soroptimists – even being the only dad at the kindergarten, play centre….
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:29 am
+1
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:34 am
+2
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:34 am
I don’t see what the problem is. Should there not be ANY clubs where men are allowed to hang out solely?
Why not?
I’m sure women have female-only clubs where men aren’t allowed, and I’m sure men wouldn’t want to be there to talk about shopping, periods, shoes, makeup, Tupperware, or whatever else is the theme of the club. Just as I’m sure women wouldn’t want to belong to a male-only club that talks about prostate problems.
I’m sure she is not being excluded from the club for the Christmas party, which I assume is open to one and all for the day that it is on.
Get over yourself woman. This is in no way up there with the women’s vote etc…
Vote:These people friggin annoy me, making something out of nothing.
December 5th, 2012 at 11:35 am
Come, come DPF…..what a silly observation on your part.
The reference to bedrooms is a gratuitous, cheap jibe.
Beneath you old chap.
So, DPF, males are members of, for example, Zonta? Males are members of the WCTU… maori womens welfare…etc etc etc.????
I am not a member of the of the Hawkes Bay Club (a magnificent example of a by-gone age with architecture, rules and membership behaviour to match) , but my wife and I have been guests there many times. Its rules suit the members – period. Any group hiring the diningrooms/lounge sets its own rules for the evening and can/do include wives, partners and OTHERS.
If the Law Society excluded the Langley, Twig (Say, what happened to Doole?) partner, that is a Law Society matter. Take it up with the LS.
Vote:It seems to me that Ms McEwan is having an attack of the publicity bues. Silly bint.
December 5th, 2012 at 11:35 am
I note no one has actually answered my question. Why would you want to be in a club that bans women members? You’ve all whined about how it is no linger 1850, but can someone tell me how the presence of a woman in a club would interfere with their enjoyment?
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:36 am
JS: Well said! And lastmanstanding…
DPF: You are on dodgy ground with this one…as last man points out, there are many “women only” clubs….
I myself belong to the Royal Nuku’alofa Club…an all male institution since 1915…They do have a “ladies night” once a year…a very lively affair from what I have been told….
DPF: If you had ever actually BEEN in a male only club you wouldnt have to ask…and it doesnt involve removing any clothes!!
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:37 am
She seems confused about the difference between a club and its clubrooms. You don’t hold anything ‘in a club’. She is not boycotting the club, she is boycotting the building – an inanimate object.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:39 am
I can’t help but wonder her thoughts on women-only clubs, gyms etc. I do find it odd that when women are prevented from doing something, it is discrimination, but generally it is seen as acceptable for women to prevent men from doing something.
Vote:For the record, I am female and do not have any problem with men having clubs that restrict membership to men.
For what it is worth, there are now some Zonta clubs with male members (although I don’t know if there are any in NZ yet).
December 5th, 2012 at 11:40 am
DPF, when I go out to a pub with mates, I prefer it to just be the guys. Occasionally one will reluctantly bring their female partner along and the tone of conversation becomes stilted and unnatural (i.e. polite and boring). So, I think I would be happy to join a social club just for men if I felt the club was right for me to be able to feel more unrestrained and relaxed.
[DPF: I often enjoy blokes nights out. But I'd never want to join a club that is blokes only. Also I have many female friends who can go out drinking with the blokes and in no way inhibit the conversation. Cactus is a fine example.]
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:43 am
No, David your first question was not the one now posed. It was “Why would anyone want to belong to…….”
No doubt it is because it’s an old establishment snobby thing and not only are women “banned” but so too would 95% of the male population be ineligible for membership. I can imagine it is a very nice,exclusive sort of place,lots of people would aspire to join it.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:43 am
I note no one has actually answered my question. Why would you want to be in a club that bans women members? You’ve all whined about how it is no linger 1850, but can someone tell me how the presence of a woman in a club would interfere with their enjoyment?
I STILL don’t see what the issue is at all?
It’s not like they’re banning women for the sake of banning women. This is not the He-Man Woman-Haters club (see The Little Rascals) or Al Bundy’s No Ma’am.
Can there not be ONE club where men just go and do man stuff?
Why not?
It’s like women have this inferiority complex now. That if they’re not included in absolutely everything it somehow sets back women’s suffrage 100 years. What’s the problem?
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:46 am
Vote:
December 5th, 2012 at 11:47 am
I have a few buddies around once a fortnight at my place to play cards in the garage and down a few drinks. Add a female to the mix and the dynamic would change considerably and not for the better from my point of view. We actually have an unspoken no-wives rule for this reason. My wife totally understands this and actually encourages me to have this “bloke time out”.
Also getting really pissed off at the double standard for what constitutes discrimination in this country.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:47 am
DPF said…
but can someone tell me how the presence of a woman in a club would interfere with their enjoyment?
Its obvious. Blokes tend to talk very dirty when they’re in a group enjoying alcohol. Women can’t stand that. So, its better that women go to an environment when they are free from blokes who like to talk dirty.
[DPF: Do you have any idea what women speak about when they are alone? You know not all women are like Bree on Desperate Housewives]
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:48 am
This post immediately reminded me of a Blackadder quote:
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:50 am
DPF, as to your question ….
Rumpole (Not to be confused with the Wellington Barrister buddy of mne who uses the name in his emal address) of the Bailey, said it best:
Vote:To escape the clutches of “she who must be obeyed”.
December 5th, 2012 at 11:51 am
I don’t think the issue here is the rules of the private club – they should and are free to do as they wish. The problem is the Law Society booking the function at a place that women are not normally welcome. How would a Maori lawyer like it if the law society had booked the christmas party at Kyle Chapman’s house? The fault here, if there is one, lies solely with the law society.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:52 am
And after being let into the club, she’d be the first to complain that the women’s loo is locked.
For a lawyer she is one hell of an ignorant bitch!
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:52 am
Well, I’ve been married for over a decade and cannot imagine anything more boring – or gay – than “a men-only club”.
I prefer mixed company. It’s more interesting. More….metrosexual.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:55 am
Vote:
December 5th, 2012 at 11:55 am
Not only that, guys generally like to rib each other a lot, sometimes pretty severely, but rarely is offence taken (in my circles). But add their girlfriends/wives to the mix and things can get personal and heated pretty quickly.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 11:58 am
DPF: A plethora of answers for you there…all of them pretty well right…
I will go one further…. although when I started drinking women were allowed into public bars, very few of them came in …when they did, everyone had to clean up their manner of speaking and the subject matter…now of course, women Eff and blind with the best…There was something rather nice about having a public bar where you could pretty much act like a caveman, and a “ladies and escorts” bar where, even if you didnt have an escort, a higher standard of dress and conduct was required…
I imagine the atmosphere of the Hawkes Bay Club is somewhat different from the public bar of the Royal Hotel in Gisborne, but you get my drift…
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:00 pm
I generally prefer mixed company – obviously some men like a “more unrestrained and relaxed” male only social environment but not me.
And if I socialise I prefer to do so with my wife so I’d have no interest in joining a men-only social club, but if some like to lead separate social lives it’s up to them.
I’d certainly consider making a stand on principle if my wife was excluded from men-only social event.
In the old days I went on a number of sports trips, strictly for men only. I got sick of the alcohol saturation and was never in to the try-hard adultery. When I lived up north I went on a number of sports trips that were mixed and they were every bit as social and for me more enjoyable. Maybe I prefer better manners and behaviour.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:16 pm
There are many clubs, gyms and other places that exclude men. Yet we do not hear the greasy types, like Pete George, taking offence to that.
Who do you pussy whipped men think your fooling ?
Women do not fit in and arrogantly expect men to modify their behaviour around them, or they get “offended !!!”
Wimps like PG are happy to roll over.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:18 pm
Yes we have, if somewhat flippantly. Lots of blokes* simply feel more comfortable spending a bit of time in a female-free environment, it’s why we create man-caves with lots of female-unfriendly old furniture and power tools. We get to do male type bonding and communicating, with the type of long contemplative silences that women feel compelled to fill with wittering on and it’s why blokes gravitate to each others company around the barbeque’s meat and flames. There are times when womens’ presence like that background whitenoise you get on aeroplanes, you don’t notice how annoying it is, until it’s gone.
*If you can’t identify with this, then sorry, you don’t qualify as a bloke. Them’s the breaks.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:19 pm
This reminds me of a campus discussion years ago. The men were complaining that there was a women-only room that excluded them.
The feminists turned around and told them that they should start their own men’s room, to which the reply was that they used to exist but the feminists insisted they all close!
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:21 pm
Well, maybe it’s exactly what they do in that club.
Anyway, my take on it is, if the club wants to be men only, sure why not? If that’s what rocks their boat.
Is it wise for the law society or any other society or institution to chose to hold their Christmas party at that venue? I think not, it’s extremely poor judgement.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:24 pm
I’m surprised David. You take a much more aggressive approach to organisations that do not allow women than to organisations that do not allow men.
Can’t have it both ways.
How do you know what the women wear at Contours? Parading is done by folk that want to be looked at. The idea of Contours (from memory) was that women could train without attention from men. I don’t know what the inside of a Countours looks like, but I doubt lycra features much. That’s so 70′s.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:28 pm
Scrubone#
Male students at Yale a couple of years ago walked behind ‘freshman girls’ on their first day at Yale with signs that read -
” No means Yes – and Yes means in the arse! ”
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:31 pm
@Harriet – are you sure about that? I’ve never, ever, heard an American use the word “arse”.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:35 pm
Women are not stupid and often prefer to hang around with real men, who are able to socialise in all male environments. When it comes down to it, the double standards, shown by the likes of DPF, only eat away credibility in the eyes of women.
They know exactly why you have those double standards, but sadly for the try-hards, will generally prefer to get laid by real men who have enough confidence to be themselves.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:36 pm
What follows is my answer to DPF’s question “But what I don’t get is why would anyone want to belong to a club that bans women?” later reformulated as “You’ve all whined about how it is no linger 1850, but can someone tell me how the presence of a woman in a club would interfere with their enjoyment?”
I don’t like to speculate on other people’s private lives but I do find that those of us men in functioning relationships with women have a greater appreciation of the fact that men and women are not fungible. I love my wife, she is a woman – there are certain things she can never understand about me. That fact bring an appreciation the sexes do exist and underscores the importance of developing ties and links with other men. Thankfully, my wife respects that and, just as I would never want to crash her movie nights with her friends, she doesn’t want to crash my afternoon golf games with mine.
I have no idea about DPF’s personal life. I have absolutely zero desire to know anything about it and don’t care to speculate. However, his passionate advocacy for gay marriage and adoption do tie in well with his utter incomprehension at why any man would value male camaraderie. I can’t see why you would ask that question unless you think people are basically androgynous.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:37 pm
I read it in The Australian about a year ago, and I’m pretty sure that they did use the word ‘arse’ – as I often repeat it to women!
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:37 pm
> Why would you want to be in a club that bans women members?
Why would I want to be in the kitchen when the wife is cooking?
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:39 pm
Kea, I didn’t take offence at anything, you’re going ape over nothing.
But I would take offence at what Harriet says if it’s true. That’s a sort of crass sexual harrassment that I don’t like, I’d give that a virtual kick up the fanny (US terminology).
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:40 pm
Why is the law society having a Christmas party? That could be offensive to atheists,Puritans,French Revolutionaries,communists,Jews,Muslims,Buddhist,Mayan calendarians….
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:40 pm
Some people on here are getting very confused.
Vote:Let me clarify,
1. A private club can set any rules that it wants.
2. The law society can have a function in any venue that they choose.
3. Choosing to hold a function in an Orange Lodge, a white supremacist hall, a misogynist club or any other venue which deliberely excludes a section of the community shows a lack of judgement.
4 The fault lies clearly with the Law Society making a booking for an unacceptable venue.
December 5th, 2012 at 12:42 pm
Cato#
“….I can’t see why you would ask that question unless you think people are basically androgynous…”
And that is the problem with NZ being hellbent on ‘equality’ as it’s conclusion can only be ‘total sameness’.
In men’s language -
Fucken boring and gay.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:44 pm
> I couldn’t think of anything worse to belong to
What about the National Party? That’s male dominated too.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:45 pm
Bugger, I will try harder next time
I thought Harriets story was hilarious, but would never do it myself. I treat women pretty good, but I am not going to give up my indentity to get some pussy, as many men do. For some men, grovelling is the only trick they have. Women like it when they are feeling fragile, but will quickly dump Mr Sensitive as soon as their confidence returns.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:46 pm
@ kowtow: Well surely we don’t need to worry about Mayan calendarians when arranging a Christmas party. If they’re right, the party won’t take place, and if they’re wrong they’ll be too embarrassed to show up.
No problem!
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:47 pm
Pete George#
Who the fuck ever said that women should get to decide what No & Yes mean?
I think you are confusing No and Yes with what ‘rape’ means – but that’s an entirely differant matter!
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:49 pm
Harriet, by abusing people who are different to you are trying to promote ‘total sameness’ as your preference.
“In men’s language – Fucken boring and gay.” – no, in your language, you don’t speak on behalf of ‘men’.
“No means Yes – and Yes means in the arse! ” and “I often repeat it to women!” is promoting sexual domination and violence, and appearing to be proud of repeating it to women is minority male behaviour that is disgraceful.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:50 pm
People will be upset about this but I don’t think that it can really be denied that your mileage will vary on this depending on where you are on a masculinity-effeminacy scale.
If you’re someone for whom the traditional ‘masculine values’ are important, you probably don’t have a problem with the existence of gentleman’s clubs. I can see why more effeminate men might not care for them. But it shouldn’t matter – different strokes and all that. Effeminacy is no longer seen as the vice it once was – it would just be nice if masculinity was also allowed to live and let live.
Lastly, and I really don’t want to wind people up here, but I think there is a third category of men who like the company of women at every opportunity – virgins and other men who are unsatisfied in that area.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:52 pm
Fisiani:
So you’d also rule out organising a function at a Masonic Lodge / Nudist Club / Ladies Golf Club / Ladies Bowling Club / ‘Professional Women’s Business Networking Club’ / Auckland Women’s Centre / Auckland Women’s Dragon Boat Club / The Tall Women’s Club / American Women’s Club / Parnell Ladies Club / etc ?
Really?
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:54 pm
Cato pops down to his man-cave, returns with a hammer and proceeds to hit the nail squarely on the head.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:56 pm
Very wise words. That third category are unable to relate to women as people, and see them purely as sex objects. They will modify their words and actions based purely on creating sexual opportunities for themselves. No integrity or value will stand above that.
It is because of that kind of man, that women are sometimes excluded.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 12:59 pm
Kea, do you realise you’re a minority male mank? Probably not.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:03 pm
PG, do you realise I don’t look to you, or women, for self validation ?
That is the difference between us. I treat women well, not because they are women, but because they are people. You vary your standards, depending on gender.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:06 pm
Cato, what are “the traditional masculine values”?
Enjoying female company over the male Keas and Harriets has nothing to do with being effeminate, and everything to do with not liking male arseholes.
But this has moved a long way from gentlemen’s clubs. I’d guess that most (at least) of the members of the Hawke’s Bay Club have far more respect for women and men than the malemanks on the rampage here.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:08 pm
In all my long years on this planet , I’ve NEVER heard of a single instance where a man was upset that he was unable to join a women’s club – whereas instances of the reverse continue to pop up with monotonous regularity.
While an occurrence of the former probably wouldn’t make the front page even in these benighted times, it’s truly amazing that each time a befuddled, estrogen-deficient female expresses her nonsense views, the matter is picked up and discussed in such seriousness as to suggest it contained some previously unaddressed substance.
When will we ever learn?
The real curiosity must lie in the fact that so many women of our times appear to wish they were really men and are thus offended by the fact that they can’t hang out and make like them, with them. Not unexpectedly, most men wish to see women as women – and really don’t enjoy the company of such women when they’re gathered together – as make believe guys, they ain’t.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:09 pm
One of the things thats pissed me off over recent years is this endless dribble we hear that “we are all equal”.
Except for the blind its pretty obvious that we arent all equal – and one of the great things about humanity is that we have different genders – and long may that last.
Its good to see that there are organizations around that recognize that men and women ARE NOT EQUAL in all respects. And just like there are hundreds of womens only clubs it would be good to see a few more men only clubs and I think institutions like the Hawkes Bay club are to be congratulated on having some rules and for sticking to them.
They get the big tick from me for showing some guts.
As for the woman lawyer – she could form her own womens only club if she so wishes.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:11 pm
Kea, you’re saying some odd things. I would never have dreamt you would look to me for self validation.
“You vary your standards, depending on gender.”
What makes you think that? I’m not even sure what your gender is, it makes no difference to how manky you seem.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:13 pm
PG – I don’t think that Kea is being as diplomatic as it might be but there’s some truth to what he says.
In my view, one of the biggest problems with men today is that good men have not been encouraged to couple their honesty and respect with the masculine virtues of courage, self-sacrafice and justice. I don’t know a single woman, in whatever modern role she performs, who does not appreciate those virtues. But the reality is that, where good men are involved, confidence and leadership have been abandoned to the scoundrels among us whose determination isn’t tempered by honesty and respect.
I remember when the Costa Concordia sank Rich Lowry wrote a really good comparison between the behaviour of modern men and the behaviour of the much maligned Edwardian men – the type of people who DPF and others routinely accuse of not respecting women.
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/288253/dude-where-s-my-lifeboat-rich-lowry
It is all the more shameful for its undeniable accuracy.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:15 pm
Pete, if your choice of company is limited to women and male arseholes, I’d suggest you find yourself some better mates.
Also, WTF is a “malemank”?
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:15 pm
Let’s face it, there’s some pretty fundamental differences between men and women.
THE PERFECT DAY FOR HER…
8:15 Wake up to hugs and kisses
8:30 Weigh-in 2 kgs lighter than yesterday
8:45 Breakfast in bed—freshly squeezed orange juice and croissants; open presents- expensive jewellery chosen by thoughtful partner
9:15 Soothing hot bath with frangipani bath oil
10:00 Light work-out at club with sexy, funny personal trainer
10:30 Facial, manicure, makeup application, shampoo, condition, blow wave
12:00 Lunch with best friend at fashionable outdoor café
12:45 Catch sight of partner’s ex and notice that she has gained 17 kgs
1:00 Shopping with friends: unlimited credit
3:00 Nap
4:00 Three dozen roses delivered by florist; card is from secret admirer
4:15 Massage from strong but gentle hunk—says he rarely gets to work on such a perfect body
5:30 Choose outfit from expensive designer wardrobe
7:30 Candlelit dinner for two followed by dancing, with compliments received from other diners/ dancers
10:00 Hot shower- alone
10:50 Carried to bed… freshly ironed, crisp, white linen
11:00 Pillow talk, light touching and cuddling
11:15 Fall asleep in his big, strong arms
THE PERFECT DAY FOR HIM…
Vote:6:00 Alarm
6:15 Blow job
6:30 Massive, satisfying shit while reading the sports section of the local paper
7:00 Breakfast—steak and eggs, coffee and toast—all cooked by naked, buxom wench who bends over a lot showing her growler
7:30 Limo arrives
7:45 Several beers en route to the airport
9:15 Flight in personal Lear jet
9:30 Limo to Mirage Resort Golf Club (blow job en-route)
9:45 Play front nine (2 under par)
11:45 Lunch—steak and lobster, 3 beers and bottle of Dom Perignon
12:15 Blow job
12:30 Play back nine (4 under)
2:15 Limo back to airport (several bourbons)
2:30 Fly to Bahamas
3:30 Late afternoon fishing expedition with all-female crew, all nude who also bend over a lot showing their growlers
4:30 Land world record Marlin (1234lbs)—on light tackle
5:00 Fly home, massage and hand job by naked Elle MacPherson (bending over showing her growler, naturally)
6:45 Shit, shower and shave
7:00 Watch news—Winston Peters assassinated
7:30 Dinner—lobster appetisers, Dom Perignon (1953), big juicy fillet steak followed by ice cream served on a big pair of tits
9:00 Napoleon Brandy and Habanos cigars in front of wall-sized TV as you watch All Blacks thrash arrogant Poms
9:30 Sex with three women, all with lesbian tendencies
11:00 Massage and Jacuzzi with tasty pizza snacks and a cleansing beer
11:30 Night-cap blow job
11:45 In bed alone
11:50 A 22-second fart which changes note 4 times and forces the dog to leave the room
11:51 Laugh yourself to sleep
December 5th, 2012 at 1:17 pm
Actually, there is one time when I’d like to be a member of a Ladies Club….
Each year during the Club Champs – so I could play off the Ladies tees!
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:17 pm
PG women have a name for you guys: Doormats.
Every attractive women has a bunch of you hanging around them, waiting, hoping, praying for a weak moment. A self confident and strong women will not give you Doormats a second glance. No doubt you wonder why the ladies keep going for those awful men who “abuse” them or do not “appreciate them”. The answer is that, they are not like you.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:20 pm
James – I avoid male arseholes. I have no problem with them enjoying each other’s company, but I prefer the company of many more men than are in that manky minority.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:24 pm
You got that right. I forgot I was in “mixed company”
I agree with what you have said, in your diplomatic way.
The PG’s of the world always side with a women, regardless of the rights or wrongs of a situation. They do it as a way of impressing women, in the hope of getting laid. That makes them creeps in my book.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:25 pm
Kea at 1:17 – WTF are you trying to say? You’re getting more confused the more you try and defend yourself.
Add 1.24 to that, the more you make up the worse you get.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:26 pm
>But what I don’t get is why would anyone want to belong to a club that bans women?
I think it might be a gay thing. Most normal blokes enjoy chatting to women, especially pretty young ones. Most blokes have female friends. But it seems the members of this Hawkes Bay club and most of the male commenters here would prefer to talk to other men. It’s probably the first step in some sort of gay pickup process, and the presence of women might delay getting to the leather, bondage, and gay sex part of the evening. Like, what if the guy you’re hitting on is bisexual and turns out to be more interested in a woman at the club?
However, I’m pretty tolerant so I support the rights of Hawkes Bay club members and Kiwiblog commenters to revel in male “companionship”, followed by some good hard gay sex.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:27 pm
Pete George#
“……“No means Yes – and Yes means in the arse! ” and “I often repeat it to women!” is promoting sexual domination and violence, and appearing to be proud of repeating it to women is minority male behaviour that is disgraceful….”
So Peter Dunn thinks that all NZ women should be like feminists and refuse to be sodomised?
Does Peter also think that NZ women are a fucken joke because they are ‘turning over’ for their husbands – but it’s really for gay marriage!
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:31 pm
Harriet, ask your mate PG how he explains the popularity of 50 Shades of Grey
Stuff like that does a doormats head in. They really do not “get” women at all. No wonder the ladies tend to be repulsed by the PG ilk.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:31 pm
Question for you Pete: Say you and Mrs George have a few other couples round for a nice dinner party, come the end of the evening are you:
a) at one end of the room with the male halves discussing the qualities of the latest Single Malt you’ve discovered or
b) sitting in a mixed group as the female halves witter on about their various problems at work, how the kids are doing and holiday plans for six months hence, all the same time?
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:34 pm
JS>sitting in a mixed group as the female halves witter on about their various problems at work, how the kids are doing and holiday plans for six months hence, all the same time?
James Stephenson, you are John “front bums” Tamihere and I claim my five dollars!
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:34 pm
Harriet, that’s getting very low bringing Peter Dunne into this, it’s got nothing to do with him. You (and Kea) have tried to pin all sorts of nonsense on me and failed, so now you try and lash out at someone else?
And as you do it you just keep revealing more of yourself.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:37 pm
Pete your squirming all over the place here, but not addressing the core issues.
Don’t get yourself all upset and make sure you show the misses how you have defended women here today. You may get some action tonight… or not.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:38 pm
rouppe
I thought the idea was for woman to be able to parade around unconstrained by the presence of men
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:39 pm
James Stephenson, more likely to be an evolving mix of people and topics.
It isn’t an either/or – it’s more likely to be a mixed sex conversation about the wine we’re drinking, or how closed minded old patriarchs yearning for domination are.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:39 pm
Davidp’s comments are exactly the kind of thing I mean. If your love life is unsatisfying then you would see every human interaction as being related to a desire for sex – kind of an attitude of “why would I want to go fishing with the guys? I don’t want to have sex with them! But if we bring some girls along, I might get to sit next to one of them on the car!”
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:40 pm
“why would anyone want to belong to a club that bans women?”
Fart freedom.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:43 pm
Wow, careful PG !!! You may end up with a mob of ladies at your front door wanting to come around for the next party. That sort of stuff really drives women crazy with excitement.
Like I said mate, you do not understand women at all…
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:43 pm
Kea – I haven’t defended women at all, I’ve pointed out you’re in a manky macho minority. You’ve been the one trying to defend the indefensible.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:46 pm
Pete George#
Yeah – c’mon Pete……tell us all why NZ women want to be spanked?
Maybe it’s because they want a ‘real man’ Pete – unlike your average metrosexual from the public service who has been told by feminists how to ‘respect and behave towards’ women………I bet their wives look right over their husbands shoulder when in the missionary position!
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:48 pm
Funny, a joke from such an obvious expert on women.
I thought you may have been taking the piss. Well done, you’ve made you point well.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:50 pm
The most eloquent rationalization for closet homosexuality I’ve ever seen
Define the “sissies” as belonging to “that other group over there” to take the attention off blokes who love to hang around with other blokes. .
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:50 pm
Cato>why would I want to go fishing with the guys?
So if you had a female friend who liked fishing, you’d wouldn’t invite her out for a day on your boat because she has girl bits? Do you not realise how gay that makes you sound? You’re like the Cartman of Kiwiblog.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:50 pm
PG,
What is “indefensible” about treating people with respect and not holding double standards?
What is “indefensible” about not thinking with your dick ?
What is “indefensible” about respecting individual rights to form lawful clubs with rules and customs of their own?
What is “indefensible” about having integrity and speaking your mind, regardless of gender ?
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:53 pm
ross69, how could you even THINK that would be the case.
The ’53 Dom wasnt up to much at all.
Thank you for that literal LOL moment. Seen it many times before but it still draws a laugh.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:56 pm
It seems to be obvious that evolution has given us different types of men. Hunting and protecting the women required strong, resourceful men who relied on themselves and their mates in dangerous situations. They spent a lot of time together building that essential bond, communicating in the swiftest most efficient way possible, with gestures, signals and brief grunts if at all possible – otherwise the prey hears you, or has left by time you’ve finished yakking on.
On the other hand, there are men that seem to be slightly physically stronger versions of women, probably evolved to carry the bags when camp is moved.
I thought it was a more subtle troll than your try-hard gay sex attempt…obviously too subtle, did I turn the subtleometer down far enough with the above comment?
Seriously, and I’m being completely 100% serious this time*, rather than exaggerating for effect, sometimes the best way to show respect for women to to get out of their hair. The lawyer in the original post has the wrong perspective and if we return to the man-cave analogy, the cave or the club is not an area from which women are banned, its a small otherwise unwanted space which the women allow the men the illusion of control over. I get the man-cave, Mrs S gets the whole house.
*or am I?
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 1:57 pm
Kea,
“PG women have a name for you guys: Doormats.”
Ha – you stereotype women while pointing out not all men are the same.
Vote:Not all women are the same Kea, and not all men are led by their dicks.
December 5th, 2012 at 2:01 pm
I’d much rather a mixed fishing group than a fishing group consisting entirely of blokes, who might be a crew of “man friendly” chaps just itching to break out some leather.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 2:04 pm
Agreed.
Personalising a general statement is a typically female thing to do. Are you a woman ?
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 2:08 pm
Right now#
“……Ha – you stereotype women while pointing out not all men are the same..”
Why is it that when people make a ‘generalisation’, idiots like you who don’t agree jump up and screech ‘stereotyping’…………it’s a bit like the gay’s and ‘homophobia’ – when all you are doing is defending the existing definition of Marriage!
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 2:10 pm
Wow, what a load of bollocks being talked here.
barry at 1:09 summed it all up very well. We are NOT “equal”.
Men are different from women. Hell, men are different from each other. Some men are into hunting and fishing and rugby, some prefer to go to shows and plays. Some men like rock music, some prefer classical.Some men enjoy going to the pub, some don’t. I enjoy a good glass of wine, most of the men I work with prefer beer.
And some men enjoy the company of women and can’t get enough of them, while some men like women in their lives but not all the time. I know some men who get on very easily with women, and I know some guys who are quite uncomfortable talking to women.
DPF asks: “Why would you want to be in a club that bans women members … can someone tell me how the presence of a woman in a club would interfere with their enjoyment?” Well personally, I prefer to go to a party or a club where there are men and women. But as some have pointed out, men behave differently when women are around. That’s just the way it goes. I can easily understand that some men would prefer to be surrounded by men only, even if just for a few hours. Not that they don’t like women, but as someone else commented sometimes you just prefer the company of blokes.
My wife has a couple of female friends who she regularly gets together with. They talk about things that just wouldn’t interest me, or the average male, so why would I try to take part? The group dynamic would change completely if a man was present.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 2:12 pm
James – it’s a wee while since (most) men lived in caves. Rates of evolution obviously vary.
Your generalisations on strength are odd. Joining that with the point Peter made, according to some of you here:
Real men are stronger, but need strength in numbers.
Real men are more masculine, but prefer male companionship.
And all this avoidance of socialising with women makes you experts on them. I guess you share all the knowledge amongst your mates, “with gestures, signals and brief grunts if at all possible”.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 2:14 pm
I see this a lot in feminism. There needs to be an enemy. If there’s not an obvious one, go looking for one. A mens club is no more feminism’s enemy than a womens gym is masculism’s enemy.
Odd, my browser’s dictionary doesn’t recognise ‘masculism’, I’m going to boycott the internet until it does.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 2:15 pm
PG, Davidp and Peter seem to have an inordinate fear that their male friends might be closeted homosexuals – or that people who disagree with their own worldview might be closeted homosexuals.
Relax guys…
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 2:17 pm
PG, once again I see your confused.
No one has said they do not want to socialise with women. They have simply stated, that some men, some of the time, may choose not to have women around.
Personally I prefer mixed company, but often make time for a quiet drink with a mate, before hand.
Your all-or-nothing thinking is bit hysterical. You probably would benefit from a mens only club.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 2:19 pm
You’re a fan of Frankie Goes To Hollywood?
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 2:33 pm
Our host cannot think of anything worse than belonging to a club that bans women.
Vote:I can.
Belonging to a club that would accept somebody like our host as a member.
December 5th, 2012 at 2:34 pm
@Pete – it’s been the blink of an eye in evolutionary terms, but congratulations on the way you snapped at the bait so fast you completely failed to take in the sense of what I’m saying.
The word “but” makes no sense in either of your statements. However, male and female brains are different, and they communicate in different ways and for different reasons. Men communicate to exchange information and build bonds between each other by shared experiences, women communicate constantly to maintain bonds between themselves (honestly, my missus talks to her closest friends on the phone practically daily, that’d be weird for a bloke).
Women have a far higher aptitude for that communication kind of stuff, the “pipe” that connects the two sides of a female brain has a waay higher bandwidth than does the male, but you’ll rarely see a bloke rotate a map they’re reading (if you spot this warning sign, demand their man-card on the spot).
I enjoy female company, and I enjoy being around children but I also appreciate female-free time with my mates and heave a sigh of relief when the kids are finally asleep.
So if I can finally get to the point, enjoyment of, and a belief in the necessity for, blokes-only time =/= hating women. Got that?
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 2:35 pm
Sure, why not? They were an okay 80s band. But why you would have a Pavlonian reaction to thinking about fellatio when you read word “relax” is beyond me.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 2:35 pm
Cato>PG, Davidp and Peter seem to have an inordinate fear that their male friends might be closeted homosexuals
I prefer to hang out with my best friends regardless of gender and I couldn’t care less about their sexuality. You’re the one that is trying to make the case that gender should determine who you’d go fishing with. I’m struggling to come up for any reason you would exclude a female friend who enjoys fishing and is good company. The only thing I can think of is that you’re gay and prefer to hang out with potential sexual partners… and it doesn’t matter if you’re in or out of the closet. I’m open to other explanations, but none of the explanations presented so far in this thread have been even slightly convincing.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 2:39 pm
Women can’t play for the All Blacks, I hope everyone will stop watching them too.
Also, for those seeking men’s company in the hope that they may like leather and sodomy, don’t waste your time at the Hawke’s Bay Club, there’s a club for that. This is the 21st century, don’t be coy.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 2:42 pm
Maybe I am gay – so what? Maybe some of my friends are? So what? Unless you’re saying that every man who has ever desired a little guy time is secretly a repressed homosexual then I don’t understand what your, and Pete George’s, point is.
When we get to the point that people start saying things like: “you could only think that if you’re secretly gay” you know that everything that can be constructively said has been said and your interlocutors have nothing to say.
Time to check out.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 2:56 pm
Funny that the people claiming to stand for “equality” are indulging in a bit of gay-bashing.
My fag mate is happy in both mixed and same sex company.
If these folk really did not care about gender, then why must they constantlhy have women around ?
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 3:08 pm
It’s an illustration of how stupid the argument is that the only reason to hang out is due to longing for sex, and if you hang out with women that is somehow effeminate.
Like exhibited here:
” Effeminacy is no longer seen as the vice it once was – it would just be nice if masculinity was also allowed to live and let live. Lastly, and I really don’t want to wind people up here, but I think there is a third category of men who like the company of women at every opportunity – virgins and other men who are unsatisfied in that area”
I prefer mixed groups. I dislike hanging out with a group consisting entirely of women (except me) as mush as I do with a group of men. The conversation just isn’t as interesting – lacks diversity.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 3:10 pm
Women only gym
Women only swim night
Women only travel
Women only accommodation
Women only space at University
Women only University scholarship
Sexism is alive and well in New Zealand.
Anyone complaining about sexism benefitting men, but silent about sexism benefitting women, is a hypocrite.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 3:11 pm
Its not an arugment, it is an observation of a certain type of man. It was not a general statement, but a specific one.
Do try and keep up you pussy whipped little man.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 3:15 pm
It was an observation lacking in merit.
I wanna take you to a gay bar, gay, bar, gay bar…..
Vote:Got something to put in you
Got something to put in you
At the gay bar, gay bar
December 5th, 2012 at 3:16 pm
Such a club is a Good Thing, in the same way that all the Best Movies Ever Made also did not include women: Lawrence of Arabia, The Great Escape, Zulu, The Bridge on the River Kwai, Le Trou, Wages of Fear, etc. etc.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 3:17 pm
I am flattered Pete. Will there be womin there ?
Those fag-hags can be hard work ya know
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 3:19 pm
Vote:
December 5th, 2012 at 3:20 pm
One last thing – I think PG is being very sensitive here. Nobody said that it was effeminate to enjoy mixed company. Everybody enjoys mixed company. What I said is that it says something about a person that they cannot even *comprehend* why people might enjoy a “guys night” in/ out (or a “girls night in/out”).
That shouldn’t be a controversial statement – just a recognition of human nature. It seems I underestimated the propensity of PG for sanctimonious preening – even to the extent of speculating about people’s sexuality.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 3:38 pm
Peter… Your 3:19pm video link pretty much represents game, set, and match. Imagine how upsetting it would be for Kea or Cato if they were strutting their stuff, fondling their pepper grinder, soaking in the tub at the Hawkes Bay Club, or pole dancing and were suddenly confronted with a real live woman. Especially since the women they know aren’t like the funny interesting women we know, but apparently only talk about children, holidays, and knitting.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 3:47 pm
davidp, make sure you show some woman your brave efforts to advance the feminist cause. Maybe she will pay you some attention. Women can be very charitable and its only a Wednesday night, so no big loss on the social calendar.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 3:47 pm
Kea: “Personalising a general statement is a typically female thing to do. ”
You inferred a personalisation I didn’t make. Are you a woman?
Harriet# – you’re too stupid for me to take seriously.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 3:51 pm
Rightnow, you silly little muppet. Your rant about “not all” men/women demonstrated your inability to grasp the concept of a generalisation. Now scamper back to your house work bitch.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 3:57 pm
ROFL, someone got their knickers all bunched up round their ankles.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 3:58 pm
Cato:
I don’t think recall anyone having any problems comprehending why people might enjoy guys only or girls only social occasions.
I admit I had trouble comprehending why any girls would want to socialise with “Women like it when they are feeling fragile” Kea and ”No means Yes – and Yes means in the arse!” Harriet.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 4:08 pm
I think your somewhat sniffy comments at 12:00 gave that impression Pete.
Which came across as “Oh well, if you want to go to a club without your wife then you go ahead and do that; I disapprove, but whatever”.
Translation: Mens-only social occasions are nothing but boozed-up excuses to go and cheat on your wife; the people that participate in them are far too common and ill-mannered for me to ever mix with, so they’re obviously a waste of time and only boorish louts would enjoy such events.
Maybe that’s not how you meant to come across, but that’s how I read it.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 4:09 pm
Yeah we noticed that. Testostrone has a profound effect on your ability to reason through problems. Grow a pair, it will help.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 4:11 pm
No that is what he meant alright. He was trying to look superior to impress the ladies. Poor lost soul that he is.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 4:12 pm
Yes because the Kiwiblog threads are such an awesome place to hang out if you want to “Impress the ladies.”
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 4:26 pm
graham – obviously men-only social occasions can be very varied. I enjoy some (not boozy boofhead though, nor exclusive mens club), but usually I prefer mixed socialising. Some men prefer regular men-only socialising, that’s their choice.
You are more likely to get better manners and behaviour in mixed social situations, as others in previous comments have pointed out.
There’s a boofhead demographic, advertising often targets it. For example I can’t understand why anyone would be attracted to Tui but obviously there’s a market segment that is.
I wonder if they serve Tui at the Hawkes Bay Club.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 4:39 pm
Obviously gay.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 5:23 pm
Yes women have to behave themselves around men.
I am sure that is what you meant.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 6:22 pm
Can’t believe I’ve been out of the office and missed the chance to comment thus far!
Wy a dude only club? Cause sometimes ya just wanna be with the boys. It’s simple really.
The old “why would. You not be around women” line is bullshit. It’s not like a guy is at a dudes only club every night, not getting laid etc.
Dime sees the appeal. Male bonding. Blokes networking. It’s a beautiful thing.
As for the wimps here.. I think it was kea that mentioned it.. If chicks didn’t want alpha male types then why is 50 shades such a hit?
The problem with our modern, feminist, progressive society is that a lot of girls now feel guilty about being a Girl in a relationship.
It seriously takes me at least an hour to make them feel comfortable about dating a glorious alpha male!
I also get the shots with wimps like PG who infer that because they are always with women and like going to high tea etc that they somehow “understand women more” than the rest of us. Good for you mr piss weak nancy boy.
Do an honest study of strait women and I’m calling it 80% preferring the alpha type.
On ipad so forgive weird typos
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 6:32 pm
iPad: very alpha male
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 6:40 pm
Right now – alpha male doesn’t mean cave man
I even use smileys! Don’t confuse alpha with the sort of staunch fuckwit one sees in Christchurch.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 6:45 pm
RightNow, shut up while the men are talking bitch boy !
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 6:50 pm
Sounds a great club to me…who would want to take the missus for a drink with the boys anyway?
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 6:50 pm
Just pulling your leg dime. We know you’re a big swinging dick
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 6:53 pm
Kea, you make such a big deal about it I’m starting to think you’re compensating for something.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 6:53 pm
RightNow, what did I just tell you !
Now you are back out of the kitchen, chatting up dime, and complimenting him on his big swinging dick. You little hussy
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 6:54 pm
Also, men are funnier than chicks. As a general rule.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 6:55 pm
I am not interesting in what you “think”. If I want thinking, I will speak with a man.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 6:59 pm
You don’t need to think Kea, it doesn’t work for you. Now pull your panties up and iron dime’s fucking shirt.
just joking, you’re clearly a virgin.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 6:59 pm
Even women think so. Women are too uptight and guarded. They are afraid people like Pete George will “judge them” if they try and relax a bit, or davidp types will start hitting on them if they have a few drinks.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 7:01 pm
RightNow, that’s it bitch. No shoe shopping for you this week, I am taking the credit card.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 7:06 pm
Think back to school. How many class clowns were chicks?
Next time you’re at a party, have a look at how many chicks are holding court and being hilarious.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 7:21 pm
One of the things women like about men is their ability to be light hearted and irreverent.
You can only imagine how they (really) think of some of the posters here on KB. Here is an example of a fun party, supplied by the self appointed defender of women Pete George:
Now that ought to get the juices flowing
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 7:25 pm
Add in a chat about coronation street…
I can’t believe there’s not a female member of the wolf pack in the hangover movies..
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 9:05 pm
I hear the Marylebone Cricket Club is shit since they let women join.
Vote:December 5th, 2012 at 9:19 pm
It boils down to “bitch, quit humping my damn leg….Man time…shoo!”
Get it yet DPF?
Vote:December 6th, 2012 at 11:17 am
The Scorned – I think most people will get it, and it ain’t a pretty sight. Less than a handful of abusive sexist apes obviously don’t get it, like yourself.
Vote:December 6th, 2012 at 11:41 am
Is commenting on a political blog a “macho, masculine, alpha male” thing to do?
Certainly not on an iPad.
Vote:December 6th, 2012 at 12:12 pm
I am so sorry I missed this thread until now.
It’s like sneaking into a men-only club (with which I have no problems) and eavesdropping on what guys say when they don’t feel constrained by female presence.
Fascinating!
Vote:December 6th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
Mary Rose – only some guys, a loud minority who think sexism and abuse are normal for ‘real men’ and get very defensive when it’s pointed out to them it’s not.
Vote: