So much for Principle-2 of the famed principles of the ToW or indeed any notions of justice or equity or fairness in the Western tradition – it’s very clear in literally black and white there is one law for the citizens of NZ and entirely separate laws for the special ones.

And DPF when you get the figures for the settlements – make sure they include not just the value of cash/assets given but also the value of the land given and the value of the rental for the land. Many people don’t realise that many Iwi own the local schools, Police stations, hospitals, Social Welfare office blocks, reserves, etc in fact all sorts of former Crown land and buildings and that the Crown leases them back from the local Iwi, usually on very sweet terms. In fact the last I heard several years ago it was costing the taxpayers $470 million per year for these leases and they had to regularly fight with the local Iwi incorporation to get them to provide the most basic of things a normal commercial landlord would have to provide like a non-leaking building or working toilets. In fact usually the government property managers just give up and pay for it themselves AND still pay the full whack of rent rather than go up against the special people. In fact I hear there is a big stink about just this now in Christchurch as the special ones have to confront the new costs of all the property they own in these leaseback arrangements, it looks like government will buckle despite having unlimited Czar powers and pay for the work to property they don’t own or will send their staff and the public back into buildings with known risks.

So yes it is disgusting that he’s being turned into a local folk hero in Porirua…

Yet you inflate my remark to imply that I am comparing the scale of the two murderers’ atrocities.

It is quite possible to compare two historical figures in one respect only, and you know that is what I was doing.

Your comment, therefore, says more about you than me.

1. The current number of Claims awaiting consideration and decisions by the Waitangi Tribunal is in excess of 2000 claims.
2. KR noted that the process of settling these claims is significant and lengthy giving an example of a Northland Claim that was filed in 85, determined by the Tribunal in 94-95 and is only now being finalised by the Crown in 2012, some 27 years later. Each claim requires an act of parliament to be passed in order to give effect to the claim resolution. Hence each claim is protracted and time consuming.
3. While historical claims had a cut off date of September 2008, this does not preclude these claims being subsequently modified. But in essence no new historical claims dating from 1840 onward can be considered.
4. That said Maori are not limited or restrained from making future Treaty claims known as “contemporary claims’ if they feel the Crown is in breach of the Treaty in any way. They as has been the case for the Claim for Wind can make any number of broad claims if they believe the Crown is in breach of any aspect of the Treaty both presently and into the future. I took this to mean there is no conceievable end to treaty claims in the future albeit the settlements are supposed to be full and final so this will undermine the legitimacy of future claims somewhat.
5. In terms of the water claims only 10% of the claims of some 100 nationwide have been advanced as examples of Maori rights and interests in freshwater. The remainder will be heard at a second stage of Hearings at a future date.
6. As each claim is in effect unique the process should protracted and lengthy.

From my own personal standpoint I suspect in terms of point 4, the number and legitimacy of any claims going forward will depend to what extent the Treaty is written into NZ’s constitution which is presently under review as we speak. Hope this provides some clarity as this was coming from a Crown Solicitor.

I wanted to get “the other side”, which simply dismissed them as settlements with the wrong people for trifling amounts. So I rang Denese Henare who was then the lawyer for Tainui and asked where I could learn more about these “trifling” settlements made with the wrong people, and why that was so. It was she who recommended Te Puea as the best source on the raupatu settlements. So, not “trawling” for favourable evidence at all – it was given to me.

You can say what you like about Ansell; his approach is not mine. But the evidence for the claims he makes is all easily found in contemporary sources. But why am I wasting my time writing to a blinkered leftie on a dead thread?

PS: Re hyperbolic comparisons with Pol Pot…similar to claims that the 2000 dead Maori in the NZ wars was comparable with the holocaust?

http://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/opinion/212056/complaint-industry-still-rambles

I will paraphrase, since I dont have the book to hand “When Te Puea heard Fraser’s offer she was so surprised by its generosity she urged [her senior negotiator] to his feet to accept, before Fraser could change his mind”. Yep, modest amounts, negotiated with the wrong people

No, on second thoughts, don’t bother reading Te Puea…once history starts to be re-written, actually reading it becomes a silly waste of time.

Starting with Ngai Tahu. The only area this tribe shines in is in getting multiple payouts from the government, and they are still going. Their 1997 “full and final” settlement of $170-million will be continually topped up until the last historical claim is settled, and the top-ups may continue for 20 years.

Did you know David, that Ngai Tahu sold most of the South Island before the Treaty of Waitangi was signed, and sold it all over again to the British government.

Ngai Tahu’s five settlements that go back to 1868 stem from a single dispute over some boundaries and reserves in the 1848 Kemp purchase. That was ONE DISPUTE.

That dispute has been parlayed into settlements in 1868, 1906, 1944, 1973, and 1997 and they are still going.

Next, what are the grievances. Did you know that in 1886 chiefs took nine grievances, yes JUST NINE GRIEVANCES, to Queen Victoria, yet when Geoffrey Palmer’s government enabled investigation of claims back to 1840, a total of 2034 claims came in.

How were those 2034 claims suddenly conjured up? Easy. Write a grievance on a sheet of paper, put your name, address, tribe, and fax it in. The Waitangi Tribunal will write it up for you and sooner or later the funds will come your way.

David, the treaty settlement process is just a huge rort, and you, and the party you do back flips to support, cannot see it.

Claimants know the grievances are nothing. They are just putting in claims because they know they will get something.

The problem is, David, that you do not yet realise that you and your party are being taken for a ride.

Will “getting these settled allow most Iwi to focus on the future”? I think we have all seen in the water rights claim and the upcoming spectrum claim how the tribes see the future.

It appears they see that there is just a whole lot more to claim. Can you see that these claims are baseless?

Sentence 1: “yet the curs come running nevertheless, salivating in a most unattractive manner.” (outside of mainstream opinion)

Sentence 2: “That’s just life in a small, conservative country.”

Garret, these self contradictory Marxist morons are honestly not worth a skerrick of intellectual effort.

Mikey: Fair dos…forget pubs, try your “thesis” down the cafes on Ponsonby Road…you wont of course, but I’d bet you’d get a very similar result…along as they could all stay anonymous of course…like you….

Actually don’t restrict yourself to your local (if there is one); pick any pub in the country…Good luck