Abhorrent attitudes

January 10th, 2013 at 2:00 pm by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

An Indian spiritual leader has sparked outcry by claiming the student raped and murdered in New Delhi was partly responsible for what happened and should have pleaded with her attackers to leave her alone.

It was the latest in a series of controversial comments campaigners say highlight a mindset within the heartland of that permits such assaults to take place.

Asaram Bapu, a self-styled guru, told followers in Rajasthan the 23-year-old was “as guilty as her rapists”. He claimed: “The five or six drunken men were not the only ones guilty. The girl was also responsible … she should have called the culprits ‘brothers’ and begged them to stop.”

I’m pretty sure she did, as they raped her to death.

Words can’t express how angry comments like this make me. In my darker moments I almost wish a group of men would and violate the self-styled guru, and see if at the end of it he still blames the victim.

A Chhattisgarh provincial minister said sexual assaults on women were taking place because “women’s stars are not in their favour”. He made the comment after allegations emerged that 11 tribal girls had been raped by a teacher in the state.

Words fail me.

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20 Responses to “Abhorrent attitudes”

  1. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    India is a big place. It doesn’t mean that the average Indian believes even a smidgen of what that Cock Smoker said. It does show the power of the human language to ensnare and entrap people in strange beliefs and practices. Two people talking= potential beginnings of a cult. And collective belief is always dehumanising with the inherent possibility of violence.

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  2. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    Totally abhorrent, but as Monique says it is only a small number speaking out like this. It’s worth noting the number of people protesting about the rape and violence in India, and I’ve seen many men amongst them. I think the degree of outrage is far more important (and involves far more people) than a few partiarchal religious nutters.

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  3. Sadu (129 comments) says:

    He should volunteer to be bound, gagged and left naked in the dark streets of Delhi. There’s no safety risk to him at all – if a gang of rapists come along, he just needs to ask them nicely to stop.

    What a fucktard.

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  4. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    For anyone else who “almost” wants to see rape perpetrated upon the rapists and excusers of rape, there’s a thought-provoking article in today’s “Daily Life” which asks “Does Rape justify Revenge?”.

    It’s point-by-point rebuttal of common reactions to serious crime is worth reading, as the kinds of things it deals with – calls for the death penalty etc – frequently arise here and elsewhere.

    The author (a woman, Amy Gray) concludes:

    Fix it, we demand, fix it and give me the relief of a civilised society. Social media is awash with “give them the death penalty”, “charge them all” with unspecified charges or, the perennial cry of bilious consolation, the inevitable promise of prison rape.

    But here is where the problem lies: in fighting against the horror of one pack, we are creating yet another pack mentality. In the grief and shock, the pack defies the logic and compassion it’s trying to salvage.

    And for some insight into the aituation in India, Scoop has run interview with an Indian psychologist. Amongst the causes he pinpoints is the attitude of Indian police:

    Q: A female police officer recently said that the personal attitudes of the officers do not affect the objectivity of the investigation. Do you agree?

    A: That is a ridiculous thing to say. If an investigator starts with the premise that the victim is at fault or that she is to be mistrusted, how can the investigation be objective? I haven’t come across any police officer who has been trained in conducting interviews with rape victims [...] The personal beliefs and attitude of the police officials do matter.

    I remember at the end of the study I conducted at Tihar Jail, a senior police official came up to me and asked me: Rape main kya study karne wali cheez hai? (What is there to study about rape crimes?) [...] In India, unlike in many other countries, there is no appreciation of the complex nature of the crime and the need for serious introspection about it.

    Read in the context of the quote from the provincial minister in DPF’s post, it seems the best action NZ could take to prevent these sorts of attacks would be to pressure Indian politicians to change their attitudes and to cleanse its police of sexists. NZ gave $100 million in foreign aid following the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, around $2 million after typhoon Bopha… Perhaps it’s about time that sort of generosity came with expectations attached.

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  5. cha (4,036 comments) says:

    Oh I think the attitude is par for the course.

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/victims-in-delhi-rape-case-are-to-blame-defendants-lawyer-says-20130110-2ch95.html

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  6. artemisia (242 comments) says:

    A friend of mine, living in Australia, told me this story recently. She lives near a couple of young Indian men who always made very suggestive comments when she walked past, though not in a scary way. Then they started putting an arm round her as well, She spoke to an Indian woman friend who said she needed to call them ‘brother’ and they would back right off as they would consider her to be ‘unavailable’ and would treat her with respect. Indeed that is exactly what happened – they began to call her ‘sister’ and there were no more problems.

    The guru in the original post also mentioned calling the men brother. Perhaps this should be more widely publicised as a quick and useful way to avoid trouble.

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  7. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    artemisia, thanks for that. I could not believe what I was reading, but your comments do give some cultural perspective.

    But I am sure most Indians are appalled by Asaram Bapu’s comments, just as I am.

    However, he is the sort of “guru” spoilt white Western liberals love to go and learn from.

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  8. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    cha, I read your link. Incredible !

    (Basically it says it is the young girls fault and the rapists are innocent.)

    Shit-a-brick…

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/victims-in-delhi-rape-case-are-to-blame-defendants-lawyer-says-20130110-2ch95.html

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  9. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    It’s certainly a bad situation over there, but things are also very bad in the UK too (where there are Muslim rape-gangs). All the worse in that the PC-infested authorities usually ignore them (for fear of arrests being seen as “racist”). See this article about the Rochdale rape cover-up scandal –
    http://sheikyermami.com/2012/11/06/uk-muslims-gang-raped-and-abused-vulnerable-under-age-girls-from-care-homes/

    THAT is what “political correctness” does to a country.

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  10. SPC (5,643 comments) says:

    A story of aborting females and killing infant females across India. And how this results in a shortage of woman and seeing young girls/women as valuable scarce commodities. Females being kidnapped and trafficked acrss India for money and then being held in houses and raped by their captors.

    The Delhi rape story just the tip of a very ugly story.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20938125

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  11. Azeraph (606 comments) says:

    If they want womens rights then a trial by women conducted by grandmothers should judge them, if this is too far stretched because of how old they are as a culture then you are looking at a couple of hundred years before they change to better themselves for themselves.

    I’m afraid what we are seeing is the beginning of the confrontation of the face of ourselves, One day, we’ll be right.

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  12. gump (1,650 comments) says:

    India has a population of 1.2 billion people.

    Extremist attitudes like these should be condemned. But they should also be expected (due to the law of truly large numbers – see the wiki article for more information)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_truly_large_numbers

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  13. SPC (5,643 comments) says:

    gump, there are as many people in China and also some imbalance in number or male and female children, but that trafficking does not occur in China.

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  14. kowtow (8,524 comments) says:

    In 1931 Churchill said this of Gandhi

    “It is alarming and also nauseating to see Mr Gandhi,a seditious Middle Temple lawyer of the type well known in the East,now passing as a fakir,striding half naked up the steps of the Vice Regal palace to parley on equal terms with the representative of the King Emperor.”

    Oh for honest statesmen like him in this day and age.

    They gained independence in 48? What’s changed,how have they advanced?And the Great Spirit had a pretty dodgy attitude to young women too. You won’t see that in the school books or popular movies.

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  15. Longknives (4,767 comments) says:

    Ghandi’s ‘Brahmacharya’ experiments with young girls get mentioned about as often these days as Mandela’s terrorism..

    ” In the 1940s, in his mid-seventies, he brought his grandniece Manubehn to sleep naked in his bed as part of a spiritual experiment”

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  16. Scott1 (552 comments) says:

    Rex,

    the justice system is, by its nature, hypocrisy because the criminal shapes us via his power and then we do the reverse. So unless we dont want to have justice at all, we cannot reject hypocrisy. It is mostly just word games to define some of those activities as hypocrisy and others not.

    Most of the articles points are contingently valid… For example you clearly dont save money in the current US system by putting someone on death row, although you may well in the Chinese system.

    But the main thing that sticks out to me is that if there are a huge number of false convictions then letting those people live in jail rather than be executed sounds like ambulance at the bottom of the cliff logic.

    At the top of the cliff is that less intelligent people tend to get worse reprsentation in the adverserial system.

    —-

    I was reading quite a good book recently about looking at society and the mathmatical patterns in it. Of course on of the things they convered was the game theory experiment where there were computer simulations of people with different strategies of reacting to each other. the problem the author reluctantly noted was that in a way we require the “tit for tat” type of strategies to create the model of a fairly cooperative society or which could support the development of more cooprative strategies.

    Maybe you could see somthing like that in how the rage at the rape of the girl may well drive change in india where many people with far more forgiving philosophies made no progress for so long.

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  17. Scott1 (552 comments) says:

    I suspect what artemisia said about the grain of truth in what the guru said is what allows people to make the sorts of comments mentioned. Maybe the guru really would call his rapists brother if someone was to rape him. And maybe it would work and might make it more likely that he would survive.

    When he and his followers look at outrage at the comments they may well just focus on that aspect and thus not listen.

    Although his message about blame remains pretty abhorent in general.

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  18. unaha-closp (1,165 comments) says:

    SPC,

    Bridal trafficking does happen in China.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/08/19/north-korea-human-traffickers-and-the-chinese-market-for-brides.html

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  19. SPC (5,643 comments) says:

    Noted, my point was that it does not appear to be happening within China to Chinese females.

    There is also the occasions when women seeking to leave China end up being trafficked abroad into sex work.

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  20. SPC (5,643 comments) says:

    I suppose what is in common, is the preference for male children, and how this has consequences for the society.

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