General Debate 16 January 2013

January 16th, 2013 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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198 Responses to “General Debate 16 January 2013”

  1. nasska (9,559 comments) says:

    If there ever was an valid argument for the reintroduction of an upper house rather than the unicameral three year dictatorship we suffer under this is it.

    The UK’s House of Lords voted 150 to 54 to remove the crime of “insulting” someone through words or behaviour from the 1986 Public Order Act.

    A victory for common sense & a bloody nose for the petals beside themselves with worry over the feelings of the delicate minorities it may be but how could we in NZ effectively overturn similar legislation?

    Ref: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21020737

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  2. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Nasska you do no that any upper house introduced into New Zealand will be based on the “partnership” in the treaty principles
    50% maori 50% the rest.

    I would rather put up with the present system for all its failings than have the stone ages dictate to the rest of us.

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  3. nasska (9,559 comments) says:

    Griff

    If it was to be 50/50 then point taken.

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  4. Andrei (2,431 comments) says:

    That Bain thread is still going strong I see.

    You’ld have thought people would have run out of things to say about by now

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  5. skyblue (193 comments) says:

    Andrei – Robin Bain was not a murderer.

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  6. Andrei (2,431 comments) says:

    skyblue – you have said all that needs to be said – in six words

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  7. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Any giving of right based on genetics is racist .
    Any law that is based on genetics is racist
    We are the country not just those who has a great, great, great, great,great grand father that was a Maori.

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  8. calendar girl (1,108 comments) says:

    Musical chairs at TVNZ News: http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv/8180525/TVNZs-head-of-news-resigns-after-nine-months . Can’t imagine that it will have any beneficial effect on quality; TVNZ has long given up on that.

    Most of us recognise that the TVNZ / TV3 business model will always deliver content mediocrity. What is beyond reasonable comprehension, however, is why TVNZ remains in public ownership. As a matter of principle, the Government should wash its sullied hands of any involvement in commercial broadcasting – sell TVNZ the highest bidder, even if that is only for $1.00.

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  9. calendar girl (1,108 comments) says:

    Griff – for once I find myself fully in agreement with you.

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  10. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    McCullum looks set to drop down the test order.

    Brendon McCullum’s days as a test opener for the Black Caps are numbered.

    The skipper tried to temper his aggressive approach at the top of the order against South Africa, and has said his position in the order is up for review.

    Coach Mike Hesson says his game is best suited to being further down the order. He says they wanted to use Peter Fulton at the top against the Proteas, but injury forced them into making changes.

    That would be a start to sorting out the train wreck. But who would drop out for Fulton? Flynn’s future looks shaky, but Taylor will hopefully come back in too. Brownlie was one of the better performers in the recent tests. Williamson hasn’t been in good form.

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  11. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    Yeah, I’m sorry called Griff a tit yesterday. ;)

    OZ/NZ welfare disparities.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10859400

    Cry me a river.

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  12. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    MW
    dont apologies
    Im a big boy and give out far more than I get. :lol:

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  13. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    The UK’s House of Lords voted 150 to 54 to remove the crime of “insulting” someone through words or behaviour from the 1986 Public Order Act.

    Being “offended” is a description of someones state of mind. It is not a description of another persons behaviour or actions. It is purely subjective.

    People can feel a variety of things for a vast array of reasons, or sometimes no apparent reason at all. Some folk feel anxious and nervous at random (Panic Attacks). Others are fearful of benign things, like open spaces. The fact that someone claims “offence” means nothing at all and should never be used as a basis for law.

    Every single law that has as its basis, subjective and unprovable feelings, should be removed. This is far more common than most people realise, with Protections Orders and sentencing Judges taking into account the alleged “feelings” claimed by the complainant. Often the real feeling is revenge or malice, toward the respondent. The law should restrict its self to things that can be proven. If a persons actions are at fault, they can be sentenced accordingly. If the only evidence is what someone claims to “feel” then there is no case to answer.

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  14. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    RE TVNZ, Brian Edwards is not bery optimistic about the format suggested for the new Seven Sharp programme.

    To summarise: Three presenters, panel of five, eight short bites, smart thinking, different viewpoints, plenty of laughs along the way, nothing that was on the news, conversational tone, focus on current affairs, will include interviews.

    Confused? Well no more confused than the show’s hosts who, according to one TVNZ insider, reported by Rachel Glucina less than a week ago, ‘still have no clear direction about the show.’

    Well, I think I can help them there. On a night when there are ‘eight short bites’ you will have 2.75 minutes per short bite in which to pursue any of the ingredients listed above including focusing on current affairs and conducting interviews, ‘in a conversational tone’ of course.

    Oh hell, let’s call a spade a spade. You won’t be on a current affairs show at all. TVNZ has abandoned even the remnants of current affairs it had at 7 o’clock in favour of a light entertainment show. Time to brush up on the old soft-shoe-shuffle perhaps?

    Edwards remembered…

    …the term ‘morselisation’ to describe what began to happen to news and current affairs programmes in this country from around 1989…

    By the sound of things Seven Sharp will be more like crumbs, and if you want some serious news and comment it may turn out to be plain crumby – as full of substance as cheap white bread.

    But that may change, once TVNZ appoint a new head of news and current affairs to replace the departing Dagan and work out a direction for the new fluff show.

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  15. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    Missed including the link: http://brianedwardsmedia.co.nz/2013/01/tvnz-exchanges-current-affairs-for-a-mess-of-pottage-at-7pm/

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  16. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    MSM decline into pure entertainment is well known PG.
    Most sane people gave up on MSM and its ability to report fact rather than providing entertainment years ago.
    I purchased a new tv five years ago. The total hours it has run since is around twenty.
    At least if you get the news from the net you have a chance of a balanced view.

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  17. nasska (9,559 comments) says:

    Kea

    Agree that in any legal situation weighing up “feelings” is a load of bollocks yet we’ll see more such inanities as the touchy feely brigade get the upper hand.

    That such garbage will get enacted is inevitable, especially if the lunatics in the Greens get near the levers of power. In a worse case scenario where the Luddites prosper in 2014 it means that a lot of crap legislation is going to have to be undone in 2017 or whenever the country regains its senses & will to survive.

    The trick is going to be getting a government willing to clean out the garbage.

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  18. Tauhei Notts (1,512 comments) says:

    Hey, Griff.
    What happened to you last night?
    You usually write crap, but your contributions today are brilliant.
    Keep it up.

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  19. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    Kea:

    …with Protections Orders and sentencing Judges taking into account the alleged “feelings” claimed by the complainant. Often the real feeling is revenge or malice, toward the respondent. The law should restrict its self to things that can be proven.

    Do you mean just wait until you can prove that someone has carried out their threats, forced their way into a home and beaten up their ex – or even murdered them, and their kids?

    “Often the real feeling” – how often? Do you have any facts on this?

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  20. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    nasska, much of this is due the feminisation of our society, which goes hand in hand with socialism in recent years. Women,( bless them), often tend towards regarding feelings as important as actual events when considering situations. In the work place I often see women pulling the “offended” card out in meetings, or simply to get their own way, without presenting any real argument or reasoning. It is just lazy and manipulative behaviour. We now have a situation where actual laws are passed on this basis!. It is not good enough and is damaging our society.

    Claiming offence is most often used to shut down debate and the free expression of ideas. Things like “hate speech” for example, are really thought crimes and should not be a part of law.

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  21. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Yeees crap that has a habit of being referenced to reasonable sources for facts.
    I am of coarse a horrible leftist greenly nutter troll :lol:
    Who likes quoting
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page

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  22. nasska (9,559 comments) says:

    Griff

    As a skeptic I find “rationalwiki” an invaluable source of information & comfort when the cries of the deluded become too much.

    Instance the section on “The Fine Art of Baloney Detection” which is a good read for those who don’t believe in AGW or the innocence of Bain.

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  23. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    I find the purpose at RationalWiki interesting
    Analyzing and refuting pseudoscience and the anti-science movement.
    Documenting the full range of crank ideas.
    Explorations of authoritarianism and fundamentalism.
    Analysis and criticism of how these subjects are handled in the media.
    Especially if you read about what they expose as the “anti-science” movement.

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  24. dime (8,790 comments) says:

    ZB had Moana Mackey filling in for Annette King this morning.

    Talk about light years ahead of that light weight Adern.

    Dont get me wrong, shes full of shit but at least she can converse outside of sound bites.

    Anyway, I googled her cause i didnt know what she looks like. I was thinking – maybe they should promote this one instead of adern. then i saw her pic. turns out shes the MP that just turns my guts whenever i see her in the house. the smug looks. she just riles me up. So i guess labour know that too..

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  25. dime (8,790 comments) says:

    Griff – are you a teacher? please tell me youre on holiday and your garbage posts will evaporate in a few weeks

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  26. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Self employed dime. Good money when I bother to work.
    I Don’t work too hard. why bother? life is now not in some unknown future To many of the generation ahead of me focused on wealth not quality of life. many I knew worked hard for forty years then died as a drone.
    Modern ability to comment from any where. Ive been fully mobile on the net for a decade now.
    I prefer to enjoy the outdoor life while you guys push a desk towards retirement.
    So sorry you will have to keep putting up with my posts

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  27. RRM (8,997 comments) says:

    I don’t think she’s built for speed Dime…

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  28. jaba (2,069 comments) says:

    I wonder how Phil Twyfords walk to save the kauri is going .. I guess we planted the kauri trees 4 years ago as the trees demise is the default of this nat lead Govt

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  29. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    RRM
    Can you share the path for rip. I dont need the specific cite just the url and correct format to permanently delete a cite will do.
    Someone is to dense to bother with.

    Your move towards the right echos my move towards the left.
    To much overexposure to the far right nuttery has that effect.
    If they are so fill of shite on one subject the rest of their philosophy is also called into disrepute.

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  30. Weihana (4,475 comments) says:

    RightNow (4,810) Says:
    January 15th, 2013 at 11:32 pm

    weihana “Equilibrium climate sensitivity estimates on the other hand are obtained from integrating ocean temperatures over a long period of time.”

    Since the increase in OHC is decelerating it would seem intuitive to expect the resultant ECS to be lower than TCR

    Nuccitelli et al (2012) contradicts that view.
    http://www.skepticalscience.com/nuccitelli-et-al-2012.html

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  31. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    Sad. Today’s “culture” http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/8181706/App-developers-game-an-overnight-hit

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  32. dime (8,790 comments) says:

    so youre self employed. have a heap of free time and choose to spend said free time on here? “debating” some fantasy about man warming up the planet and the only way to fix it is to tax people more..

    “I prefer to enjoy the outdoor life while you guys push a desk towards retirement.” outside, on a lappie or tablet talking shit. wow you win the lifestyle award.

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  33. calendar girl (1,108 comments) says:

    PG @ 9:01 – You appear to prefer fiddling with a model of (government-owned) business that is functionally dead. Moreover – the most important aspect – there is no valid reason why, in this multi-channel / multi-device communications age, the NZ Government should continue to own any commercial broadcasting business.

    I reiterate, “… sell TVNZ to the highest bidder, even if that is only for $1.00.” It’s primarily a matter of principle, not of programming. But I guess you cling to the hope of a “balanced” approach to nationalised commercial entities.

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  34. Weihana (4,475 comments) says:

    Pete George (15,805) Says:
    January 16th, 2013 at 6:51 am

    Weihana,

    I’m a believer in the law of accelerating returns. Looking at the wide range of emerging technologies from artificial food to nanotechnology to biomedical engineering to the exponential rise in raw processing power It would seem more likely that they will live lives immeasurably more advanced than ours.

    Not so much pessimistic but wary of an inevitable crunch. The only thing we don’t know is how soon it will be, 10 years, 100, 1000, but one day earth’s gravy train will derail.

    With accelerating population and use of finite resources the chances are it will be sooner rather than later.

    There will be a number of things this century that we run out of and can’t find a replacement for.

    The “law of accelerating returns” is an earth sized ponzi delusion.

    Resources may be finite but the usefulness of the same resource can be increased without the need for more physical resources. Moreover, if you acknowledge that this crunch could be 1000 years away then the prediction becomes meaningless. Given the rate of technological and scientific progress it would be pointless to speculate on what advancements would be available so far into the future to deal with any limiting on physical resources.

    In any case, it would appear that in the short term there is more evidence for sustained and predictable exponential growth in technology than there is for an impending crunch in global resources. These sort of Malthusian predictions have been made for a long time without coming true. On the other hand technological progress is an ongoing reality.

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  35. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Griff seems to have a very high opinion of himself.

    The only time his posts are gramatically correct are when he cuts and pastes others comments. otherwise he
    seems to be borderline litterate at best.

    Poor old Griff.

    To, too. There ,their. Site, cite. Course, coarse. Now, know. Apologies, apologise. Etc, etc.

    I bet he really is a school teacher, and also a fibber.

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  36. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    Self employed. Good money when I bother to work.
    I Don’t work too hard. why bother?

    A euphemism for a bludger and loafer. The alarmist is another idler as bad as the infamous Ure.

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  37. dime (8,790 comments) says:

    “I Don’t work too hard. why bother?”

    ya do wonder if thats code for – im not capable of earning a high income so i dont try. instead i spend my time advocating tax increases for the rich. the rich must be punished!!!

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  38. RRM (8,997 comments) says:

    Here’s the how-to Griff…

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/12/gun_control_in_the_us.html#comment-1062679

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  39. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    calendar girl: “You appear to prefer fiddling with a model of (government-owned) business that is functionally dead.”

    I’ve got no idea where you get that idea. I made no comment at all on “fiddling with a model”, I (along with Brian Edwards) was criticising the progression to the latest model show.

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  40. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    cite is cite
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cite
    4.to call to mind; recall:
    If you type in site it does not work.
    Computers are like that The code must be correct.

    By the way beryl I have often admitted I am functionally illiterate. Does that prove a lack of intelligence? Or difficulty in writing/spelling? For me coming from my English writing skills when I first started posting on KB to my present ability is a massive achievement.

    I bet he really is a school teacher, .

    As you are the one often projecting school teacher with you focus on spelling rather than content. meh
    I have often placed you as a retired and somewhat failed school teacher

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  41. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Thanks RRM :wink:

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  42. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    Weihana, wrong way Nuticcelli and his nutty buddies have been pwned on their “paper”. Google it.

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  43. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    To answer your question Griff.
    “By the way beryl, I have often admitted I am functionally illiterate. Does that prove a lack of intelligence ? ”
    Yes.

    i’ll leave you alone now Griff, you’r no fun at all, far too easy to provoke.
    (Which is often the case with paranoids obsessed with a single topic.)

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  44. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    Actually here you go Weihana:
    http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com/2012/11/12/publication-of-reply-to-comment-on-ocean-heat-content-and-earths-radiation-imbalance-ii-relation-to-climate-shifts-by-nuccitelli-et-al-by-douglass-an/

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  45. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    I am functionally illiterate. Does that prove a lack of intelligence?

    Yes. A million times, yes.

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  46. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    And, Weihana, a glance at the bottom graph at this page tells the story:
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037596011201119X

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  47. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    “To make the kind of heartfelt apology I am making now without the help of drugs would be impossible, and so when it came to convincing millions of people that I am a decent human being who is capable of actual regret, I needed an edge,”
    – Lance Armstrong

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/lance-armstrong-admits-to-using-performanceenhanci,30912/

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  48. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    O 700 and ignore 0 2000
    dear dear

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  49. emmess (1,334 comments) says:

    Anyone seen the returning soon ad for Campbell Live.
    Seriously and I am not making this up, I thought it was an ad for the Labour Party until the end.

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  50. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    Yep emmess, seen it and I got the same impression.

    So did Whale, comments and video clip: John Campbell comes out of the closet, must be the week for it

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  51. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    I’m so hungry, I could eat a horse :)

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  52. Mary Rose (392 comments) says:

    >he
    seems to be borderline litterate at best.

    litterate?

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  53. Mary Rose (392 comments) says:

    Am I missing something? Anyone know what the ‘game’ is on the google.co.nz home page?

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  54. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    A waste of time?

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  55. snowy (106 comments) says:

    Emmess – Exactly what I thought when I saw it

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  56. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    Interesting I’ll be called a conspiracy theorist as usual with this statement as if I’m printing the headlines

    Goldman Sachs employees are awarding themselves $8 billion after receiving billions in bailouts from the treasury

    And there will probably be another QE after 4 already.

    Meanwhile former Goldman exec and ex New Jersey governor John Corazine who could not account for $1.5 b is not now facing court or civil action.

    It’s all in msm folks.

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  57. Joseph Carpenter (210 comments) says:

    Hmmm, this doesn’t bode well. In a sudden change to long standing policy Germany’s Bundesbank is repatriating it’s overseas gold investments (it has the second largest gold reserve holdings in the world with 95% held off-shore), starting with demanding all it’s bullion from the France (14%), USA (40%) and Japan (8%) reserve banks be physically withdrawn and returned to the Fatherland.

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  58. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    Studies anyone? http://health.msn.co.nz/healthnews/8593713/fast-food-link-to-asthma-eczema-severity

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  59. Andrei (2,431 comments) says:

    it could also be contributing to the severity of asthma and eczema.

    Have you ever noticed, Manolo, that it is things that the ninnies disapprove of that lead to adverse health outcomes and not things they do approve like tofu or carrot sticks.

    Let me tell you how they do it, they go fishing and with thousands of maladies that afflict the human trace by the laws of chance one or more will appear in the group of children who eat the disapproved food and at a rate that can be quoted as being statistically significant – voila, the paper, the press release and the gushing reporterage.

    They ramble on about “junk” food but it is their science that is “junk”.

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  60. cha (3,545 comments) says:

    Lovely.

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/gene-rosen-sandy-hook-conspiracy-155033813.html

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  61. Left Right and Centre (2,397 comments) says:

    Kea…

    I’m hanging off your comments mate… lapping it up like a cat with milk…. dare I say adding value to my thinking….

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  62. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    lick lick

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  63. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    “Anyone know what the ‘game’ is on the google.co.nz home page?”

    112th anniversary of the zamboni. Someone at google has too much time on their hands. And the game is boring.

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  64. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    Rationalwiki (who on their about page admit their name is somewhat ironic)

    Remember, the truth is not a popularity contest.

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  65. TheContrarian (1,043 comments) says:

    @Griff and Nasska

    I have been a RationalWiki user for nearly 5 years and contribute pretty much every day. Can you guess which one I am?

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  66. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    Scum…put away the wet bus ticket and get out the sledgehammer

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8185024/Gangster-found-hiding-under-a-bed

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  67. Weihana (4,475 comments) says:

    RightNow (4,813) Says:
    January 16th, 2013 at 11:04 am

    Weihana, wrong way Nuticcelli and his nutty buddies have been pwned on their “paper”. Google it.

    RightNow (4,814) Says:
    January 16th, 2013 at 11:12 am

    And, Weihana, a glance at the bottom graph at this page tells the story:

    I think the link you’re looking for is:
    http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~douglass/papers/DK_reply_PLA_2012.pdf

    Or the original paper:
    http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~douglass/papers/PLA_21192_proofs_plusFigs1_2.pdf

    While I would not scoff at David Douglass’ expertise in quite the manner you have referred to Nuccitelli, I can’t quite understand the argument that OHC trends on timescales which stretch across “climate shifts” are meaningless. Surely by the same token his TOA calculation which implies negative feedback cannot be extrapolated to the long term. Indeed he does note that this was not the central point of the letter, though it does appear to be the basis for your view that equilibrium climate sensitivity is below 2 deg C.

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  68. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    The only time his posts are gramatically correct are when he cuts and pastes others comments. otherwise he
    seems to be borderline litterate at best.

    I do not knock Griff for that. What I dispute is his reasoning on the AGW issue. On most other issues I largely agree with him.

    However, his literacy does make me wonder how well he really understands the material he presents. That is not to question his intelligence, just his understanding of the issues raised.

    Sadly Griff is getting very bitter and twisted, and is now chatting with that awful little fake poser RRM on how to “RIP” people who he does not agree with and who make him look bad. It is unfortunate as Griff is smart enough and is not a total oxygen thief like RRM.

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  69. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    Weihana – good job finding free copies of the papers, I didn’t have the time (at the time).

    I contended OHC increase was decelerating, a premise of my argument for ECS < 2 deg C.

    The short of it is – I don't see any argument against my contention that OHC increase has decelerated. Do you?

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  70. dime (8,790 comments) says:

    RRM is a good dude. a tad misguided with his voting record is all!

    not sure why he RIP’d you though? that was a bit weird.

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  71. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    It could be presumed that the mechanisms for deep heat transfer would have effect well below 2000

    This is a travesty :lol: we dont have the data

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  72. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    RRM is a good dude. a tad misguided with his voting record is all!

    not sure why he RIP’d you though? that was a bit weird.

    RRM goes around trying to claim the moral high ground and presenting a facade to the world. I can see through it and it scares him. I deal with some unlovely creeps in the real world and I would pick RRM as one of them. It is easy when you know what to look for. He is not mis-guided. He is a bad person.

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  73. thedavincimode (6,133 comments) says:

    krazykiwi

    We finally know what happened to Mr Ed.

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  74. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    He [RRM] is a bad person.

    No, he’s not. He’s just smarter than your average goat.

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  75. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    I often find RRM’s comments to be very good. He’s very honest about the current state of left wing politicians in NZ.

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  76. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    bhudson, RightNow, if RRM had his way, people who disagree with him, and revealed the problems with his thinking, would be banned from KB. That tells me all I need to know about him. It really is a bit cheeky people like that using a public forum, but that is typical of the hypocrisy of many lefties.

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  77. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    TheContrarian
    No not even going to try
    you did encourage me to look at the reasons why people joined
    conservopiedia seems to be the majority reason. Rwiki is a good antidote for nuttery
    Back to the fringe far right conservative position being its own worst enemy as in my comment to rrm earlier

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  78. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    I’ve been KB’ing for about 6 years Kea and can’t remember RRM ever advocating for someone to be banned.
    I’m not claiming to have read every comment posted, but it doesn’t seem to fit with what I have observed.

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  79. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    RightNow, good on you for speaking as you find. Hard to fault that :)

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  80. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    Kea, RRM comments here with (usually) much more sense, dignity and fairness in debate than you. You frequently resort to over the top abuse and name calling when you disagree with someone. Unlike you RRM has earned a fair bit of respect here.

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  81. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Pete George, your full of shit and are eating away at your own credibility. I have been subject to numerous personal attacks that do not even touch upon the issues raised. Yet you say nothing about those. I use personal attack way less than many of your ilk.
    Your another pretender to the moral high ground, who is a total fake.

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  82. nasska (9,559 comments) says:

    Kea

    Have to put my oar in & back Dime & Right Now. RRM is moving to the right…..progress is slow but the end is in sight.

    And he does a bloody good job of getting up Reddy’s nose! :)

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  83. Fletch (5,727 comments) says:

    Very very weird stuff around the Sandy Hook shootings.

    http://youtu.be/Wx9GxXYKx_8

    I am only up to the part where the parents of one of the little girls ‘shot’ set up a Facebook support page for her, before they even knew she was dead. And then there is the picture of her taken with president Obama, even though she is supposedly ‘dead’.

    I really don’t know what to think about all this.

    Watch and then give your opinion.

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  84. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Fair enough nasska, but I get tired of these lefties claiming the moral high ground. What underlines their philosophy is nothing moral, decent or good. It is a political doctrine that has caused the deaths of millions and untold suffering on millions more. They of course try and distance themselves from those excesses, but their thinking is identical to those who committed those excesses. Mao was out for the little guy and the rights of the common man, he wanted social justice too. It is only when the left have total control that you see their true colours. Some of us don’t think they should be given that chance again. Lefties have a belief that only a certain elite are qualified to decide the fate of society. Decisions based on the socialist creed of envy, jealousy and total control by any means.

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  85. Weihana (4,475 comments) says:

    Rightnow,

    The short of it is – I don’t see any argument against my contention that OHC increase has decelerated. Do you?

    Sure, that the trend is calculated based on short term variation whilst neglecting longer trends.

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  86. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Its all the Kenyans fault
    In between sending out death squads and saying Allahu Akbar five times a day…..

    Conspiracy theories have flooded the Internet since Adam Lanza gunned down 20 first graders in Newtown, Conn. last month.

    The Sandy Hook elementary “truthers” have even begun harassing a man who was lauded as a hero after the shooting, Salon reported Tuesday.

    Gene Rosen found six children at the end of his driveway on Dec. 14 and sheltered them inside his home at the time of the massacre, The Associated Press reported last month.

    Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/sandy-hook-shooting-conspiracy-theories-2013-1#ixzz2I6ivII00

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  87. TheContrarian (1,043 comments) says:

    @Griff

    Well, if you have been following RationalWiki for awhile (particulalry the talkpages and saloon bar – and if you follow the recent changes) you’ll have no doubt seen many a comment from myself. I spent a fair bit of time shooting the shit on RW over the last 5 years

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  88. nasska (9,559 comments) says:

    Kea

    …” Lefties have a belief that only a certain elite are qualified to decide the fate of society. Decisions based on the socialist creed of envy, jealousy and total control by any means.”…..

    Spot on but we don’t always know how people develop their political beliefs. For all we know young RRM might have been brought up in a house with a picture of Michael Joseph Savage hanging over the mantelpiece of a small coal fire & read chapters of Das Kapital instead of stories of Goldilocks & the Three Bears.

    The main thing is that he’s seeing the light. :)

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  89. TheContrarian (1,043 comments) says:

    The Sandy Hook conspiracy nonsense is revolting. 20 children are dead.

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  90. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Griff, I really don’t know why the conspiracy nuts bother with all that far fetched stuff. Obama has done more than enough real stuff. He is possibly the biggest war monger ever to hold office and I am concerned what 2013 will bring. Look up how many countries he has launched military actions in. Check out what he is doing in Africa. Just what is admitted, no conspiracy theories.

    Obama is a dangerous man, even more so because he is exempt from the same media treatment and scrutiny Bush was subjected to. (It’s because he looks more like his dad than his mum). If you don’t believe me, wrap a towel around your head and go live in one of the countries he is “helping”.

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  91. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    For all we know young RRM might have been brought up in a house with a picture of Michael Joseph Savage hanging over the mantelpiece of a small coal fire & read chapters of Das Kapital instead of stories of Goldilocks & the Three Bears.

    The main thing is that he’s seeing the light.

    True. My parents are Labour voters and very left wing. They were just moaning about the Tories to me the other day. Of course they have not kept up with the times and do not realise the left no longer represent the interests of the common working man. My natural leaning is the left, provided it is based on outcomes for people, not ideology.

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  92. TheContrarian (1,043 comments) says:

    @Kea

    ‘My natural leaning is the left, provided it is based on outcomes for people, not ideology.”

    Well said. I agree.

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  93. RRM (8,997 comments) says:

    :oops: Awww, shucks!

    Any day of having no idea what forum user “Kea” is saying is a good day!

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/11/the_tigers_of_wrath.html

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  94. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Rational wiki has been a good conformation of my belief structure.
    To see my views on religion and science echoed so closely and completely in a outside media was a revelation
    There is a great dearth of informed and logical people out there. In both my personal and professional life the sane rational and intelligent people I meet are few and far between.
    I find blogs such as ben goldacre and skepchick amusing as well.

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  95. TheContrarian (1,043 comments) says:

    Skepchick bothers me.

    Check out AronRa and Potholer54 on youtube – they are good too.

    Do you have an account on RW? If so I’ll rock over and mess with your userpage :-)

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  96. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    “Sure, that the trend is calculated based on short term variation whilst neglecting longer trends.”

    Well on that basis, if you drew a straight line in the “average” temperature graphs from 1750 to 2012 there would be a trend of around 0.07 deg C per decade (or 0.7 deg C per century), and the rise in the late 20th century could be characterised as a short term variation.

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  97. cha (3,545 comments) says:

    The Sandy Hook conspiracy nonsense is revolting. 20 children are dead.

    All of which is faithfully regurgitated by shameless repeaters like Fletch.

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  98. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    I see RRM is missing me again. After he stuck his head up his arse RIP me, he mentions the fact constantly, along with saying he is not missing me. Maybe it is a cry for help and he has a remnant of a soul in his bleak dead commie heart. ;)

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  99. nickb (3,629 comments) says:

    Now we hear McCullum is dropping down the order…

    My question is, if he is not wicketkeeping, and he is no longer willing to bat at the top and continue a passable to below par job as a test opener (as the latest in a long line of very poor test openers – think Cumming, Redmond, Papps, McIntosh) then why is he in the team (apart from Hesson’s nepotism).

    You cannot tell me we do not have one better specialist middle order batsman in the country who will be more consistent and value his wicket more than McCullum?

    People are saying to bring Ronchi in as keeper and promote Watling to open as a batsman only. 3 wicketkeepers in the side does not seem a balanced team to me.

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  100. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    @Kea

    ‘My natural leaning is the left, provided it is based on outcomes for people, not ideology.”

    Well said. I agree.

    TheContrarian, If we assume good intent, both left & right want the best for people. The point of difference is how to best achieve the desired outcomes.

    Where I depart from the left is the way they put ideology ahead of outcomes for people, and the observation that the left is prone to hidden agendas and ulterior motives, with little regard for people.

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  101. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Negative I operate on a few other blogs under a different pseudonym
    And a totally different persona
    still that’s the web…. :twisted: :lol:

    RRM
    50D
    I got the same but don’t now where, I think it was when I told bereal to F off. I have over stepped the mark once or twice.
    A little like a speeding ticket they get you eventually and the mature take it with grace

    Long live DPF’s light moderation.
    And the blogs own internal checks by Peer censure.

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  102. Rex Widerstrom (5,129 comments) says:

    Kea says:

    If we assume good intent, both left & right want the best for people. The point of difference is how to best achieve the desired outcomes.

    And sadly, the point of similarity is the arrogant assumption they know what that is, and since “people” don’t, they’ll just go ahead and impose it on us anyway.

    I’m just about to go off and shoot an interview for Channel 7 on this nonsense.

    Government lunchbar inspectors are on the horizon. Can you imagine it? “I’m closing you down, you’re using white bread in breach of Section 711(a)ixiv of the Health of the Proletariat Regulations 2013!” “But it’s hi-fibre white!” “Right, I’ll need to see a complete manifest of all bakery orders for the past year”… meanwhile if someone wants to open a new service station they’ll be told they can, but only if they forgo the profits from pies, sausage rolls, fizzy drinks and cigarettes as the “approved density” has already been reached.

    Density is right… from the people who dream this stuff up. And this is a (quite conservative) Liberal state government, not Labor.

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  103. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    Thank you for the link, Rex.
    That’s nonsense and nanny-statism at its most contemptible worst. The question is: will people of WA accept it?

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  104. nasska (9,559 comments) says:

    Some days start better than others.

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5no746rhcruuade/tn.jpg

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  105. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    Will we ever learn?
    http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/welfare-underpins-the-regular-abuse-of-children-20130115-2crh2.html

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  106. Fletch (5,727 comments) says:

    cha, I don’t buy a lot of it, but some of it is definitely just, I dunno – weird.
    That’s why I was asking what ppl thought.

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  107. nasska (9,559 comments) says:

    Manolo

    From your link….

    …..”The number of reports of child abuse has grown enormously.

    It is not often realised that these do not represent a wider spread of abuse. The same hardcore abusers are being reported again and again. Welfare is the economic underpinning of the regular abuse of children.”…..

    I reckon that the story in Aotearoa would be identical if reported on honestly….but that wouldn’t be PC!

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  108. Rex Widerstrom (5,129 comments) says:

    @Manolo

    The people of WA accept a huge amount of nanny-statism, which is ironic given their self-image as tough, rugged sons and daughters of the red dirt and the mines. For example, the apartment complex in which I live has a pool. Last year it was closed over the hottest summer on record because it lacked signs indicating the requisite list of banned activities (“bombing”, diving, running with scissors etc etc).

    This year – which is even hotter – they’re trying to close it because it doesn’t have a trench round its circumference into which water which slops over the edge can collect and drain off (this despite the fact that the water level is a foot or so below ground level). The reason for their concern is that sand may wash off the surrounding pavers and into the pool.

    I assume they have never encountered the concept of a beach, at which I’m told sand and water are in perilously close proximity at times.

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  109. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    dime (5,328) Says:
    January 16th, 2013 at 3:33 pm
    RRM is a good dude. a tad misguided with his voting record is all!

    RightNow (4,819) Says:
    January 16th, 2013 at 4:36 pm
    I’ve been KB’ing for about 6 years Kea and can’t remember RRM ever advocating for someone to be banned.

    Pete George (15,821) Says:
    January 16th, 2013 at 4:41 pm
    Unlike you RRM has earned a fair bit of respect here.

    nasska (5,461) Says:
    January 16th, 2013 at 4:46 pm
    Have to put my oar in & back Dime & Right Now. RRM is moving to the right.

    Yep. He’s definitely smarter than the average goat.

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  110. Rex Widerstrom (5,129 comments) says:

    Welfare Poverty is the economic underpinning of the regular abuse of children

    Of which welfare is but one cause. I’ve regularly seen, for instance, child abuse in families in which both parents work, and earn reasonable money, but where one or both is addicted to gambling or alcohol or drugs or some combination thereof.

    Also work is about more than money – it’s about dignity and self-worth. Australia is rapidly catching up to NZ in terms of having a weak labour market (today brick maker Boral was added to the lengthening list of companies making major layoffs, with 700 jobs to go).

    Rather than constantly accusing benefit recipients of not wanting to work, those in a position to set policy should consider perhaps matching them with the needs of community organisations, whose budgets are under the twin pressures of increased demand for services and falling donations.

    Simply being valued for making a contribution, and the appreciation (not to mention companionship) of those they help, may be enough to improve the outlook, and thus parenting skills, of many sole parents.

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  111. Reid (15,608 comments) says:

    Fletch @ 4:52 Very very weird stuff around the Sandy Hook shootings.

    Then

    TC @ 5.17 The Sandy Hook conspiracy nonsense is revolting. 20 children are dead.

    and a few others in a similar vein.

    What’s the bet those others rendered judgement without even watching Fletch’s link? Because, in their vast vast vast nay infinite understanding, it COULDN’T be true because hey, the world simply doesn’t work like that. Which is a much more juvenile and naive response that an average 10 year old gives if they are exposed to the General Theory of Relativity because at least your average 10 year old looks puzzled and admits they just don’t have the tools yet, to understand whether or not it makes sense.

    But no, in certain people’s infinite understanding, they know best and so they don’t even bother to look at it because hey, THEIR world doesn’t work like that so why should they waste their time? This is why such people are called useful idiots. They display less intelligence than even your average 10 year old, whatever their IQ.

    I haven’t assessed the video past a few mins but it mentions a few of the elements of Sandy Hook I’ve become familiar with. One in particular is the father’s interview at 8:30. Watch that.

    Remember, this is a dad who just lost his “daughter.” (BTW, his “daughter” was later photographed sitting on Obama’s knee when he visited the school.

    Nah, nothing to see here, not to the useful idiots anyway.

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  112. Andrei (2,431 comments) says:

    2012 Sports Illustrated Kids SportsKids of the Year

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  113. calendar girl (1,108 comments) says:

    PG, I’ve just seen your comment @ 9:52 – My sincere apologies. I obviously misinterpreted your earlier one at 9:01, possibly because of the optimism expressed in your final sentence:

    “But that may change, once TVNZ appoint a new head of news and current affairs to replace the departing Dagan and work out a direction for the new fluff show.”

    It seems that I may have missed that sentence’s ironical intent. But be careful, that’s how you can be (mis-)judged when you appear to be endorsing the media views of ex-PM Clark’s media adviser, Brian Edwards!

    But now I accept that you weren’t supporting the present TVNZ model. (Edwards would advise that I offer “regrets”, that’s his style.)

    Finally, Pete, would you support a full sale of TVNZ as I suggested? (i.e. to the highest bidder, whatever the price, subject only to normal Commerce Commission scrutiny of normal competition issues.)

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  114. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Reid, have you asked the conspiracy theory promoters for evidence?

    1. the list of the dead reported in the media?
    2. evidence of funerals occuring?
    2. the death certiciates for each of them?
    3. verify the identity of people shown in photos?

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  115. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    cg – I see no point in the state retaining ownership of TVNZ, it is owned by commercialism anyway. I don’t watch TV1 much at all and TV2 even less.

    I’d like to see some sort of public broadcasting but a full TV channel is old format. Using NZ on Air to place better public interest programmes on appropriate outlets as happens to an extent now – whether they be broadcast TV, radio, online or mixed media makes more sense to me. With strong on demand and archive components.

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  116. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Your suggestion is noble Rex

    There are some on welfare that would respond to such a chance these are usually those in genuine need of support from the tax payer. Many cycle though welfare at some stage in life only to successfully reintegrate into economic society.
    The minority are outside of what we consider civilized. Their inclusion into any such scheme would corrupt the very community organizations you are trying to assist. These are the ones that give us our unacceptable child abuse statistics. Long term beneficiaries particularly children born into a benefit. The family’s of perpetual welfare dependence . Some are family’s are both incorrigible and unemployable. To stop this the intervention must be earlier and more energetic.

    The only worth while spend on poverty and welfare dependence is at the young age where there is a more effective outcome /cost. Spend more of the available budget on early childhood intervention particularly in schools. There are some very good organizations who have documented successes in intervention in New Zealand. More focus on actual results than woolly ideological driven schemes with no measured out come as most funded now is squandered on

    There is a level of nepotism and graft in our present systems Mostly this is hidden in a cultural matrix that both sustains and empowers such corruption. The impositions of culture on present methods of service delivery also hinder a transparent and result based evaluation of performance. Cultural based initiatives must conform to reasonable standards of outcome and accountability.

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  117. TheContrarian (1,043 comments) says:

    @Reid

    Whose bodies were found at the school if not the children in question?

    In fact, don’t answer. This ‘conspiracy theory’ is so utterly devoid of intellectual rigor it doesn’t deserve debunking.
    Believe it – all the power to you.

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  118. big bruv (12,388 comments) says:

    Can anybody explain why that wanker Bradbury has such a hatred for the NZ police?

    http://tumeke.blogspot.co.nz/

    I would love to ask him myself but like all left wing blogs he does not allow comments from anybody who does not share his views.

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  119. Weihana (4,475 comments) says:

    RightNow (4,819) Says:
    January 16th, 2013 at 5:28 pm

    “Sure, that the trend is calculated based on short term variation whilst neglecting longer trends.”

    Well on that basis, if you drew a straight line in the “average” temperature graphs from 1750 to 2012 there would be a trend of around 0.07 deg C per decade (or 0.7 deg C per century), and the rise in the late 20th century could be characterised as a short term variation.

    The distinction would be that trends on a timescale of less than 10 years are too short to measure trends in the climate. Douglass himself notes that:

    “There is a tendency in the literature to mistrust any trend analysis involving periods shorter than decadal. This tendency is based on model evaluations, which play no part in the present case.”

    Given that his findings do not depend upon model evaluations I guess that’s reasonable. But I’m not sure it would be reasonable to extrapolate his findings beyond the very short timescale he has considered to infer a long term trend in the climate.

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  120. TheContrarian (1,043 comments) says:

    @Big Bruv.

    Bradbury is a self important wanker. That’s why

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  121. nasska (9,559 comments) says:

    “You worry too much about this God shit,” he said. “Always concerned in case you offend the big Pixie In The Sky.”
    “You should do what I do,” he said. “Go out and get pissed, get yourself a hot hooker & fuck the tits off her. You’ll soon forget all the religious crap.”

    “That’s good advice Father. But can I take it you’re a bit disillusioned with taking confession?”

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  122. Rex Widerstrom (5,129 comments) says:

    @nasska

    Thanks, I LOLed.

    @ Big bruv / TheContrarian

    You don’t think that perhaps Bradbury has a point? (a broken watch is right twice a day, etc). There’s controversy over what police are calling “selective” video footage of an incident in which an officer was assaulted and the Herald, instead of asking its readers to send any video or still images to it so that they can be run alongside the footage police claim gives an inaccurate impression, ask instead for the information to be sent straight to the police.

    I’d have no problem with the Herald passing on copies of anything it received to the police and the courts. But a news organisation’s first duty is to inform it’s readers, not act as assistants to the police.

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  123. Lance (2,311 comments) says:

    @Reid
    Because every single fucking time I have looked into these conspiracy videos they are shown to be twisted half truths wanked up by agenda driven nutters. The worst of all was ‘loose change’… that was so fucked up. An explosive expert politely pointed out some of the presented ‘facts’ were impossible; then him, his family and his entire explosives crew received death threats.

    Enough of the self trained experts and people without a grip on reality.

    Seriously… Obama had 20 children murdered? You need help and increased medication.

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  124. cha (3,545 comments) says:

    Nice Reid, real nice.

    http://shortlittlerebel.wordpress.com/2012/12/16/urgent-update-on-connecticut-shooting/

    http://metabunk.org/threads/1054-Debunked-Emily-Parker-Still-Alive-after-Sandy-Hook

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  125. Rodders (1,790 comments) says:

    nasska – it’s the way you tell ‘em :)

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  126. TheContrarian (1,043 comments) says:

    @Rex

    I was more talking about why Big Bruv couldn’t ask Bomber about it because he is a self important wanker that rarely publishes disagreeable comments.

    @Lance

    No Lance, don’t you know – the kids were actors. Whomever died wasn’t the kids in question apparently. The coroner, the EMT’s, the police, everyone was in on it.

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  127. nasska (9,559 comments) says:

    ‘She’s a horrible woman,’ said Murphy about his
    mother-in-law. ‘She makes her own yoghurt. She puts
    a pint of milk on the table and stares at it!

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  128. Rodders (1,790 comments) says:

    :) reminds me of Les Dawson saying that you could tell when his mother-in-law had arrived because the mice were throwing themselves on the traps.

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  129. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    Weihana, I still maintain that the rise in OHC has decelerated.
    I agree this is too short a time-frame to infer a long term trend with high confidence, but that has to cut both ways if we’re to remain objective.
    I find it reasonable to infer the deceleration in OHC rise follows the pause in warming, with a lag of (by eyeball) about 5 years. Given the current pause is still happening I expect no acceleration in OHC rise for at least 5 years. If certain projections (e.g the latest UKMO projecting essentially flat temps for another 5 years) hold then make that 10 years.

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  130. TheContrarian (1,043 comments) says:

    Yeah – this guy looks legit:

    http://www.sandyhookhoax.com/about.html

    @Reid, you sure you wanna throw your lot in with this guy?

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  131. RRM (8,997 comments) says:

    BB 7:51pm –

    I haven’t read enough Bradbury to know if he generally hates the police or not.

    By repeating the Police call for any footage to be handed over to them (Police) the Herald are effectively saying that in this instance they are not interested in being “the people’s” eyes and ears because they trust the power.

    Now a New Zealand Newspaper is probably on safer ground in being like that, compared to a lot of other newspapers in a lot of other countries where you without a doubt can’t trust the power. But the rap sheets of a certain Mr Shipton and a certain Mr Schollum do show that we probably shouldn’t always unquestionably trust them… hence Bradbury’s article. And hence that Malcolm X quote attached to it also.

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  132. Reid (15,608 comments) says:

    Reid, have you asked the conspiracy theory promoters for evidence?

    1. the list of the dead reported in the media?
    2. evidence of funerals occuring?
    2. the death certiciates for each of them?
    3. verify the identity of people shown in photos?

    and

    @Reid

    Whose bodies were found at the school if not the children in question?

    SPC and TC, like many useful idiots you ask the wrong questions about this issue because your mind can’t handle the mere possibility it was a setup so you look to ridicule the questions people raise because you are emotionally desperate to retain your sense of how your world works. It’s called cognitive dissonance. People who don’t have cognitive dissonance and aren’t useful idiots are able to watch not only this but other videos which are much better on this subject and calmly ask themselves without any emotion at all questions such as: How does a “dead” girl turn up on the President’s lap? (SPC BTW Emilie’s name was on a casualty list at least she was a few weeks ago when I last looked). How come this “dead” girl’s dad smiled and got into character before he gave his speech? How come some other parent’s were laughing and smiling and looking relaxed 2 days afterward? And other such questions.

    Notice that unlike the useful idiots, these people don’t get all hysterical about how outrageous the mere suggestion is. No, they don’t, unlike the useful idiots, feel any of that. Why should they? It’s just a bunch of stuff that happened. The media says X. Does this mean the media are always right? Useful idiots say yes, of course, how could they possibly ever lie about something like that and how come you’re not all hysterical and rending clothes and suchlike at the human twagedy of the whole thing? And people who aren’t useful idiots just file the real questions away and keep thinking. Knowing that the video like that Dad who first jokes and smiles then composes himself before giving the required grieving parent acting lesson really was broadcast by the media as the real father really grieving give the lie to all the useful idiot hysteria, but at the same time recognising that as with all hysterical people, they’re incapable of reason so anything you say on the subject which is the least bit logical will never penetrate their fevered minds.

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  133. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,787 comments) says:

    Loving the Herald articles on the Oz Exodus.

    Kiwi’s deserting New Zealand is “Kiwi As”.

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  134. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    dear dear

    http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/climate/seasonal-to-decadal/long-range/decadal-fc
    Forecast

    Global average temperature is expected to remain between 0.28 °C and 0.59 °C (90% confidence range) above the long-term (1971-2000) average during the period 2013-2017, with values most likely to be about 0.43 °C higher than average (see blue curves in the Figure 1 below).

    The warmest year in the 160-year Met Office Hadley Centre global temperature record in 1998, with a temperature of 0.40°C above long-term average. The forecast of continued global warming is largely driven by increasing levels of greenhouse gases.

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  135. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    I’d have no problem with the Herald passing on copies of anything it received to the police and the courts. But a news organisation’s first duty is to inform it’s readers, not act as assistants to the police.

    Rex, Their first duty is to sell papers and make profit. Their second duty is to “shape” public opinion on various issues.

    You must remember that they rely heavily on the Police for many of their stories. So they do them favours. They will get something in return.

    Duty to the public is a quaint idea but far from reality, with a few exceptions.

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  136. TheContrarian (1,043 comments) says:

    Reid, work on your critical thinking skills.

    “anything you say on the subject which is the least bit logical will never penetrate their fevered minds.”

    And you speak of cognitive dissonance?

    This isn’t worth the effort – enjoy yourself.

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  137. Reid (15,608 comments) says:

    Reid, work on your critical thinking skills.

    TC cognitive dissonance is an emotional condition. When emotions are involved, logic takes a back seat. Look it up.

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  138. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    My wife was in the bathroom for hours getting ready to
    go out when finally the door swung open and she said, “Honestly, do I
    look fat in this”.

    I replied, “Yes you do, but to be fair, it’s only a small bathroom”.

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  139. Rodders (1,790 comments) says:

    Some more one-liners
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2210984/The-gloriously-PC-jokes-Les-Dawson-celebrated-new-book.html

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  140. Reid (15,608 comments) says:

    I said in my first post there is better material on Sandy Hook than Fletch’s video. This is one of them.

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  141. TheContrarian (1,043 comments) says:

    My wife said to me the other day that maybe I should see a doctor to get some pills to help with our sex life.

    She seemed rather cross when I arrived home with some diet pills for her.

    Ba-dum-chiiii

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  142. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Griff, thanks for latest AGW link.

    If AGW is such a threat, then we should be working on a solution. I am sure you agree ?

    I have asked “what is the solution” a number of times.

    So far I have received two responses; The usual abusive remarks & one guy who said the rich countries should be taxed more to give money to the developing countries. I am not convinced that if we pour (even more) money into the developing world, that they will produce less co2. Usually the better off people create the most.

    Do you have any SOLUTION other than the global communism idea your fellow AGW promoter has given me ?

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  143. TheContrarian (1,043 comments) says:

    @Reid

    The video says in the description:
    ” and all the key people – The coroner, The parents, The Nurse – None of them behave in a way that can be expected.”

    So they are all in on it? So the whole community is somehow in on this? The coroner, The parents, The Nurse – they all know people and people know then but somehow you believe that these actors have come into this community and pretended and not one fucking person has noticed this, from the community and people that know these people personally, apart from people on youtube. And that the parents of these children are actors and not part of this relatively small community and no-one from the community has said “Hang on, I have never seen this person before?”
    WOW.

    That stretches the credibility much more than anything you have presented.

    And JRense is a well known crank.

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  144. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Kea,

    1. a carbon tax on goods involved in trade is a global tax that applies on all tradeable goods equally. It ends the advantage that some nations such as China and South Korea have operating outside of Kyoto Accord arrangements. The purpose is to establish a market incentive to use scarce carbon resources as efficiently as possible.

    2. Using the money from a carbon tax to finance renewable energy for the third world and otherwise energy efficiency and new tech replaces existing funding out of rich country tax revenues – that have already been committed. Renewable energy in the thrid world allows economic growth without dependence on affording carbon.

    How exactly is the proposal taxing rich countries more, it does not – it applies a carbon tax on a global basis and uses this money to fund existing commitments. Given first world governments are struggling with debts this is prudent. The concept is far from socialism – which you seem to think is a catch all term for any transfer from those who have more to those who have less, regardless of context.

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  145. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    dear dear indeed griff. A 20 year trend of 0.015 deg C per decade. That’s real confirmation of the models that is.

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  146. Reid (15,608 comments) says:

    That stretches the credibility much more than anything you have presented.

    TC try not to be so hysterical and actually look up those cross-references provided in that short video and view them for yourself, instead of pretending you already know what the fuck happened because anything other than the official is so preposterous in your own tiny mind as to be unworthy of examination.

    And who gives a fuck about the source or the website of the source? Only a moron makes up their mind based on the source. Why many conservatives still believe Fox is fair and balanced. How fucking stupid is that. But who knows, maybe one day, Fox might provide some content that really is, and it’s the content not the site, that counts.

    So look up those videos of those “grieving” people and make your own mind up based on your understanding of human nature, as to whether they really do look like they’d just lost a child. And that’s the question. The question is NOT: gee, does this make any sense to me based on my worldview and if not, why I’ll pretend the video doesn’t even exist. Because the latter is the question you seem to be answering and that’s not the right question. Unless you’re a useful idiot.

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  147. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    The case against for CO2 being such a large forcing weakens further:

    Black carbon is the second largest man-made contributor to global warming and its influence on climate has been greatly underestimated, according to the first quantitative and comprehensive analysis of this issue.
    Key findings
    Black carbon has a much greater (twice the direct) climate impact than reported in previous assessments.
    Black carbon ranks “as the second most important individual climate-warming agent after carbon dioxide”.
    Cleaning up diesel engines and some wood and coal combustion could slow the warming immediately.

    http://www.igbp.net/news/pressreleases/pressreleases/blackcarbonlargercauseofclimatechangethanpreviouslyassessed.5.4910f0f013c20ff8a5f8000152.html

    So with the emergence of shale gas in more developed countries taking pressure off global oil supply, and developments like this, will the third world be allowed more cheap energy from oil now?

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  148. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    SPC , I said “other than global communism”…….. but I will play along.

    1. How do you intend to enforce that tax on those countries that do not support the Kyoto agreements? What will we do when China & India tell white middle class pricks in rich countries to shove it up their arse? (as they already have). You will enforce your beliefs on them how exactly. Be specific…

    2. Your first point was that a tax should be applied on everyone. No exceptions. So I assume this tax will be applied on the “poor countries” as well ? If not why?

    Who decides who is poor ? I know, for example, Africa is not poor. They have massive reserves of oil, minerals, precious metals, land, wild life etc. So we can rule them out.

    ” Given first world governments are struggling with debts…”

    Remind us who you want to tax SPC ?

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  149. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Reid, did you read the 8.11 pm link from cha?

    They had three blond daughters, Emilie (aged 6), Madeline (aged 4) and Samantha (aged 3). Now they have two, Madeline and Samantha. The elder girl shown in the photo with Obama is quite obviously Madeline. The family portrait of all three girls was apparently taken in 2010, when Emilie was about the same age that Madeline is now. Obviously the dress is a hand-me-down.

    http://metabunk.org/threads/1054-Debunked-Emilie-Parker-Still-Alive-after-Sandy-Hook?s=fb4c71c39e0a22adc5adbbc8a349b13f

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  150. mikenmild (8,916 comments) says:

    Methinks TheContrarian should give up on Reid. The cognitive dissonance is strong with this one.

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  151. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    The purpose is to establish a market incentive to use scarce carbon resources…. without dependence on affording carbon.

    Oh and SPC, you do know that “Carbon” means organic in that context ….. don’t you ? All known organic life is carbon based. But I am sure you know that…

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  152. TheContrarian (1,043 comments) says:

    “TC try not to be so hysterical”

    Don’t mistake incredulity and skepticism for your surfeit of youtube videos, which constitute your only evidence, for ‘hysteria’.

    You fail to meet this point:
    So they are all in on it? So the whole community is somehow in on this? The coroner, The parents, The Nurse – they all know people and people know then but somehow you believe that these actors have come into this community and pretended and not one fucking person has noticed this, from the community and people that know these people personally, apart from people on youtube. And that the parents of these children are actors and not part of this relatively small community and no-one from the community has said “Hang on, I have never seen this person before?”

    The hysteria belongs to you. Someone’s opinion of what constitutes ‘proper grieving’ is evidence of nothing. Not to mention the sheer number of people involved for this to have to work does not work nor cannot work for the situation you have presented.

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  153. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Kea, you are either terminally thick or just playing the moron.

    You don’t know what a carbon tax on tradeable goods is? Really?

    It is an effect an import tariff applied at the country where the export is sent. Those countries such as China cannot avoid it if they trade with other nations applying it.

    Common trade rules are not communism, nor are market incentives.

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  154. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Kea

    1. if you think a carbon tax is increasing tax on the rich nations, think again it is a global tax and it would finance existing commitments by a few nations that have already been made.

    It’s advantage is that a global tax is a more effective market incentive tool.

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  155. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    SPC, sorry mate, but what you outlined is global communism and communism at its worst. You even made it plain that countries should be forced to comply, though you have avoided saying how.

    At least you had the guts to answer. I am glad you did answer, because it is an example of what is really behind the all this AGW nonsense.

    Why could you not be more honest and simply say: White people owe a duty of care to brown people & we should care for the environment more.

    See it is not that hard is it ?

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  156. Reid (15,608 comments) says:

    Reid, did you read the 8.11 pm link from cha?

    Yes I did SPC and it may be true, Emilie may not be the girl on Obama’s lap. So what?

    Someone’s opinion of what constitutes ‘proper grieving’ is evidence of nothing.

    TC as I said in the beginning I haven’t looked at Sandy Hook beyond the superficial because it doesn’t interest me. The reason it doesn’t is because to me, false flags is de rigeur, I see them all the time and this is just another one: i.e. it’s not the first one I’ve ever noticed and therefore while we’re discussing that tonight notice I didn’t bring it up, Fletch did, I merely chipped in because sometimes someone will take it up. Therefore I’m not super-fascinated in providing you or anyone with all the clues because while I could gather them and make them into a coherent picture if I wanted to, I can’t be arsed. This is because I learned long ago you can’t make someone see something they aren’t emotionally equipped to see. No matter what the evidence.

    Re: “opinion,” if you as a human doesn’t know what a real person who lost a child 2 days looks like vs those people on those videos, then you haven’t lived much life. Such judgements TC are less opinion and more informed judgement. But of course if you’re not emotionally equipped to deal with the logical conclusion if you do indeed determine that yes, they look like they’re acting, then there’s little point in you even exploring the question.

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  157. TheContrarian (1,043 comments) says:

    Arguing with you about who, in your opinion, is actually grieving is a waste of time. You have failed to actually address the substantive questions I have raised (repeated below) and relied upon your idea of what constitutes human grief. From this I can only conclude you are more willing to hold on to your subjective opinions of how people should act instead of logical, skeptical inquiry….

    “So they are all in on it? So the whole community is somehow in on this? The coroner, The parents, The Nurse – they all know people and people know then but somehow you believe that these actors have come into this community and pretended and not one fucking person has noticed this, from the community and people that know these people personally, apart from people on youtube. And that the parents of these children are actors and not part of this relatively small community and no-one from the community has said “Hang on, I have never seen this person before?””

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  158. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    . if you think a carbon tax is increasing tax on the rich nations, think again it is a global tax

    Ok so we DO impose a tax on the poor countries trying to get off their knees. Glad we cleared that up. How will you enforce that on them ?

    I have another idea. You seem to think the rich countries are the biggest co2 emitters and you told us they are in debt. How about those poor countries pay back all that money they have been given, so the rich (yet with massive debt !) countries can invest in “Green Energy” ?

    See how silly it is SPC ? Socialism does not work. In fact, socialist countries have terrible environmental records, as well as appalling human rights records.

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  159. Fletch (5,727 comments) says:

    Contrarian, they are a very weird community then, anyway.
    Did you see the interview with the coroner? make inappropriate comments and joking etc?
    And that weird guy who took the 6 kids into his home (whom some people refer to as the worst actor).

    I’m not a huge believer in conspiracy stuff like 9/11 etc etc
    Do I believe this is a conspiracy? Probably not, but it certainly is weird – from the father going straight from joking around into his little grieving piece to the school nurse getting a complete makeover to appear on TV – these people are strange.

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  160. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Kea, that you cannot see the difference between Kyoto and a global carbon tax is bizarre enough. But that you think global trade rules are communism is truly bizarre.

    It’s interesting that you insist on implying there is some white race privilege being sustained by opposing any action in response to global warming. Especially when a global carbon tax reduces the advantage of transferring production to countries such as China that still heavily use black carbon for energy production.

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  161. TheContrarian (1,043 comments) says:

    Fletch, so now the whole community is strange? The more people involved, the less the conspiracy can work.
    This is stupid, Based upon subjective opinions by the posters of youtube.

    100′s if not 1000′s of people involved and the only people raising concerns are a few youtube users and some dude who thinks he is the messiah.

    A very robust theory we have here.

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  162. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Fletch, it is was a private grief on public display for the American media, the people were in shock yet had attention on their little community for the first time ever.

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  163. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Right now

    (e.g the latest UKMO projecting essentially flat temps for another 5 years) hold then make that 10 years.

    I posted the link to bring to your attention that the climate variable called the southern osculation has a known effect on climate. We can not predict what the southern osculation Will do next year but we do know the effects it has on global temperature in the past tense
    This effect is one of the variables In met services estimation of climate range
    As such met services slope from the unusual el nino in 1998 should be taken to a projected point of the climate modal which would including this effect.

    Adding the +.3 97-98 el nino to the base of .43s giving us a 0.46 anomaly in the met prediction.

    A proper evaluation from the met service projection is a slope of 0.3degrees per decade.

    Met service predicting no rise is not supported by evaluation of their model

    A graph of el nino against temperature can be found here
    http://www.john-daly.com/soi-temp.htm.
    papers for theory include
    Waiting for Cooling (Fawcett & Jones 2008).
    Foster and Rahmstorf (2011.)

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  164. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    10 Characteristics of a Conspiracy Theorist

    10 characteristics of conspiracy theorists
    A useful guide by Donna Ferentes

    1. Arrogance. They are always fact-seekers, questioners, people who are trying to discover the truth: sceptics are always “sheep”, patsies for Messrs Bush and Blair etc.

    2. Relentlessness. They will always go on and on about a conspiracy no matter how little evidence they have to go on or how much of what they have is simply discredited. (Moreover, as per 1. above, even if you listen to them ninety-eight times, the ninety-ninth time, when you say “no thanks”, you’ll be called a “sheep” again.) Additionally, they have no capacity for precis whatsoever. They go on and on at enormous length.

    3. Inability to answer questions. For people who loudly advertise their determination to the principle of questioning everything, they’re pretty poor at answering direct questions from sceptics about the claims that they make.

    4. Fondness for certain stock phrases. These include Cicero’s “cui bono?” (of which it can be said that Cicero understood the importance of having evidence to back it up) and Conan Doyle’s “once we have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be the truth”. What these phrases have in common is that they are attempts to absolve themselves from any responsibility to produce positive, hard evidence themselves: you simply “eliminate the impossible” (i.e. say the official account can’t stand scrutiny) which means that the wild allegation of your choice, based on “cui bono?” (which is always the government) is therefore the truth.

    5. Inability to employ or understand Occam’s Razor. Aided by the principle in 4. above, conspiracy theorists never notice that the small inconsistencies in the accounts which they reject are dwarfed by the enormous, gaping holes in logic, likelihood and evidence in any alternative account.

    6. Inability to tell good evidence from bad. Conspiracy theorists have no place for peer-review, for scientific knowledge, for the respectability of sources. The fact that a claim has been made by anybody, anywhere, is enough for them to reproduce it and demand that the questions it raises be answered, as if intellectual enquiry were a matter of responding to every rumour. While they do this, of course, they will claim to have “open minds” and abuse the sceptics for apparently lacking same.

    7. Inability to withdraw. It’s a rare day indeed when a conspiracy theorist admits that a claim they have made has turned out to be without foundation, whether it be the overall claim itself or any of the evidence produced to support it. Moreover they have a liking (see 3. above) for the technique of avoiding discussion of their claims by “swamping” – piling on a whole lot more material rather than respond to the objections sceptics make to the previous lot.

    8. Leaping to conclusions. Conspiracy theorists are very keen indeed to declare the “official” account totally discredited without having remotely enough cause so to do. Of course this enables them to wheel on the Conan Doyle quote as in 4. above. Small inconsistencies in the account of an event, small unanswered questions, small problems in timing of differences in procedure from previous events of the same kind are all more than adequate to declare the “official” account clearly and definitively discredited. It goes without saying that it is not necessary to prove that these inconsistencies are either relevant, or that they even definitely exist.

    9. Using previous conspiracies as evidence to support their claims. This argument invokes scandals like the Birmingham Six, the Bologna station bombings, the Zinoviev letter and so on in order to try and demonstrate that their conspiracy theory should be accorded some weight (because it’s “happened before”.) They do not pause to reflect that the conspiracies they are touting are almost always far more unlikely and complicated than the real-life conspiracies with which they make comparison, or that the fact that something might potentially happen does not, in and of itself, make it anything other than extremely unlikely.

    10. It’s always a conspiracy. And it is, isn’t it? No sooner has the body been discovered, the bomb gone off, than the same people are producing the same old stuff, demanding that there are questions which need to be answered, at the same unbearable length. Because the most important thing about these people is that they are people entirely lacking in discrimination. They cannot tell a good theory from a bad one, they cannot tell good evidence from bad evidence and they cannot tell a good source from a bad one. And for that reason, they always come up with the same answer when they ask the same question.

    A person who always says the same thing, and says it over and over again is, of course, commonly considered to be, if not a monomaniac, then at very least, a bore.

    http://skypeassholes.com/node/6308

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  165. TheContrarian (1,043 comments) says:

    @Kea – good stuff.

    Also known as JAQing off

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/JAQing_off

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  166. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Kea, the point is designing a system that applies to all equally, yet creates an incentive for lower use of carbon in production. A carbon tax advantages production not using carbon for energy generation. It creates an incentive to invest in better intensity (less carbon use to production output etc).

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  167. Rex Widerstrom (5,129 comments) says:

    A teenage boy is getting ready to take his girlfriend to the prom. First he goes to rent a tux, but there’s a long tux line at the shop and it takes forever.

    Next, he has to get some flowers, so he heads over to the florist and there’s a huge flower line there. He waits forever but eventually gets the flowers.

    Then he heads out to rent a limo. Unfortunately, there’s a large limo line at the rental office, but he’s patient and gets the job done.

    Finally, the day of the prom comes. The two are dancing happily and his girlfriend is having a great time. When the song is over, she asks him to get her some punch, so he heads over to the punch table and there’s no punchline.

    No, please, hold your applause…

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  168. TheContrarian (1,043 comments) says:

    Fuck Rex, you’re killing me.

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  169. Fletch (5,727 comments) says:

    Although I don’t believe it’s a conspiracy, let me ask you: if you were a Govt wanting to ban guns in America, what would be the best way to do it? To get the sympathies of the people behind you?

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  170. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    So the conspiracy theory, that the American government wants to prevent the people from defending themselves from their own government by limiting access to weapons, leads to another – that mass killings with guns are a government ploy against the right to bear arms.

    Now what is self-defeating, is paranoid people being allowed gun ownership – so who starts these conspiracy theories?

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  171. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    SPC, if China & India ( the worlds biggest countries) decide they want no part of this (they don’t) how do you think it should be enforced ?

    If they make trade agreements with other smaller & developing countries, how will you enforce the global carbon tax on all parties ?

    I want to know how you intend to enforce compliance on those countries that do not support AGW theory ?

    Developing countries were not obliged to make cuts, but were to benefit from cash from rich nations to help them avoid a high-carbon route to prosperity. Globally, emissions have increased by around 50% since 1990, although that growth has come mostly in poorer countries that did not sign up to Kyoto – notably China whose emissions went up 286.6% from 2.5m metric tonnes to 9.7m metric tonnes.

    You see SPC, it does not work. But thanks for the suggestions. It is more than cut n’ paste Griff ever managed.

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  172. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    An interesting point came up at ss today
    The so called fart tax the national and act stopped was a direct tax a produces levy on a per head stock
    The component of carbon emissions added to the natural cycle by farming is not grass or number of stock its fertilizer
    As the added carbon input into farming is contained within fertilizer added to pasture the only market driven way to tax so called farts
    is to tax the fertilizer not the stock
    This has added effect of penalizing the use of surplus fertilizer and inefficient farming practices as well as taxing fairly the carbon input on any given farm directly.

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  173. Reid (15,608 comments) says:

    100′s if not 1000′s of people involved and the only people raising concerns are a few youtube users and some dude who thinks he is the messiah.

    TC this is the useful idiot in you talking. It’s the same argument used by people who don’t see how 911 could have been done therefore it must have happened the way the media has explained it. What it really is, is denial. It’s an excuse to ignore what your eyes are looking at. Because you’re too emotionally disturbed by following the logical trail of the evidence. It would overturn your world view. So you pretend the evidence is trite/doesn’t exist. By pretending that instead of the evidence, the answer lies in statements like you made. Which is not assessing evidence at all. Quite the contrary.

    And many above are just like you.

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  174. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Jan 5 (Reuters) – China’s biggest energy-consuming companies are likely to face a direct tax on carbon dioxide emissions by 2015, the Xinhua-backed Economic Information Daily reported on Thursday, citing government sources.

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  175. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Sorry SPC, but it gets worse. Much worse.

    Only 37 of 194 nations signed the treaty that replaces the Kyoto Protocol, which expires December 31 – and several countries may withdraw their consent. That means the new agreement is legally non-binding and covers only at best 15% of global carbon dioxide emissions.

    … the United States, Brazil, Russia, India, China, Canada, Japan and other major emitters refused to sign, and the new treaty sets no binding emission limits.

    http://www.masterresource.org/2012/12/doha-defeat-but-not-over/

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  176. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Griff, that is because China itself sees the sense of improving the intensity of their production. First it means their own resources last longer and second it means they adapt to being more efficient before the global market requires this.

    Griff, if animals eat grass that has no fertilizer on it, is there no methane release? Really?

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  177. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Kea, the current system is a disaster, allowing it to die and be replaced by a global carbon tax is not the end of the world.

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  178. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    The international effort to curb man-made emissions of greenhouse gases – as enshrined in the Kyoto protocol – is a miserable failure that needs to be swept away and replaced….says the study, published in the journal Nature.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/scientists-say-kyoto-protocol-is-outdated-failure-397801.html

    So much for global agreements !

    Still deeply curious about how belief in AGW will be enforced on sovereign states who don’t support it…

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  179. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Griff, more efficient use of fertilizer is occuring now as a way to reduce farm costs – placing a tax on the fertilizer they still use to encourage more of this might be seen as a little perverse. Education as to how they can farm better while using less fertilizer may be the way to go – the savings will motivate those yet to look into this.

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  180. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Kea, Kyoto was never a global agreement.

    If the WTO adopts a global trade rule – related to carbon tax on all tradeable goods, that is what it becomes.

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  181. TheContrarian (1,043 comments) says:

    @Fletch

    Mass shootings in the USA have happened under every government since Clinton and probably before. This transcends political advantage. Not only that but each shooting leads to a massive increase in gun sales. If anyone has anything to gain it isn’t the govt. – it’s the gun manufacturers. So why aren’t you blaming them for they have the biggest take in this, not the government.

    @Reid – sorry buddy, you are aren’t addressing any of the very reasonable points I have asked of you so you can safely be ignored now. Thanks for playing though.
    ” following the logical trail of the evidence” You have given no logical trail of evidence.

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  182. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    SPC, your missing my point, either by accident or design.

    Global agreements only work if countries actually honour them. They may decide to not honour those agreements at any time. As we have already seen, actions matter, not agreements. Signing bits of paper at high profile media shows is not going to lower emissions one bit.

    If a country does not honour an agreement, what do you suggest is done about it ? And remember who we are talking about here, some of the most powerful countries on earth !

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  183. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Kea, no. WTO rules are abided by. The problem would be getting the WTO members to make the rule.

    A global carbon tax is the best option, but it will only occur then countries decide to do something.

    A policy that resulted in finite carbon resources being used over 100 not 50 or 150 not 75 years, means slower AGW. And this gives us more time to better develop energy alternatives.

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  184. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    The major political force rising in this country is the greens. The polarization of the AGW debate coming directly from the right in America is creating a situation when all those in denial are doing is allowing the far left green movement to capture the high ground. This is directly resulting in the election of those who will impose lunatic socialist solves for our problem.

    The election result in the USA can firmly be placed on the fringe tea party and their conservative stupidity. Included in this would be the result of sandy, the record temperatures, and the drought making people reevaluate their commitment towards the Republican party

    To stick your head in the sand and squawk loudly is not going to help our aim of a free market society instead it enables the socialist to inflict state controlled targeted spending on airhead ill conceived green elephants and forced adoption of public transport .

    I did once post that we should tell bluff to fuck of
    the reason for this is the bluff smelter captures a considerable amount of cost transfer by its cheap electricity deal
    We are subsidizing an industry to retain unproductive jobs a lefty trait if there ever was one. Telling bluff to f off or pay a realistic market rate may effect a few protected jobs It will have a significant impact on our energy mix making us look good in the eyes of the world. Making any further effort of New Zealand to reduce carbon emissions unneeded we would need to burn less oil or coal to produce our electricity. As well as cancelling a job and profit guarantee that costs us money directly

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  185. axeman (250 comments) says:

    Meanwhile in Australia the Gweens are losing voters as their agenda is exposed. Over there, those people are not “harmless idealists.” They are not even genuine environmentalists. They are dangerous ideologues driven not by reason or intellectual debate, but by zealotry.

    Hopefully we will be able to expose the New Zild watermelons in time. :-)

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/greens-are-losing-voters-as-their-agenda-is-exposed/story-e6frg7bo-1226554651368

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  186. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Griff, if animals eat grass that has no fertilizer on it, is there no methane release? Really?
    The added input is carbon produced and transported fertilizer. The rest of farming is inputs/outputs that are part of the natural cycle
    Yes cows fart but the proportion that can be attributed to man is the fertilizer we add. You can add effects of methane the fact that are native birds dont fart etc put you are making a very complex discussion that would soon exhaust our knowledge.
    All that could be calculated into any tax regime to give a true cost per unit
    I am just proposing a form of tax that when we are forced to add it is sane market driven and user pays that also satisfies the environmental aims of such a tax.

    That china has not sighed Kyoto is beside the point The USA is the biggest major emitter per capita until they sign up to any carbon mitigation scheme the chance of the rest of the world doing so is remote.
    China is no longer a developing state their usage per capita is level with Europe and growing rapidly

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  187. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Griff, allowing the smelter to run down line by line has already been proposed.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10831956

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  188. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    finite carbon resources
    There is no peak oil
    NZ has enough coal to run for hundreds of years
    its as the easy resources are used the cost will rise to reflect the cost of extraction And or conversion (Gas to fuel coal to fuel etc)

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  189. axeman (250 comments) says:

    Not happy with a Carbon Tax? Is it because a Carbon Tax is regressive, hurts the poor, and disadvantages American businesses not to mention that it is NOT needed and the US Congress didn’t read the bill

    So what else could be the matter with it?

    Don’t Be Fooled By the Meritless Carbon Tax
    By Diana Furchtgott-Roth, January 15, 2013

    The American Taxpayer Relief Act, passed by Congress on January 1 after a day’s negotiation between Vice President Joe Biden and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, should be the death knell for the carbon tax, the favorite of many academic economists for restructuring the tax system.

    The method by which the new tax law was passed offers little hope that Congress is capable, much less likely, to craft thoughtful tax solutions. Since the Bush tax cuts were passed in 2001, politicians have known that taxes were scheduled to rise. Surely, one might imagine, years of careful planning would inform the next tax law.

    Yet Congress passed permanent tax laws at the last moment, without reading the bill. One must wonder what Senators and House members knew of the detailed language of the new tax law, such as provisions favoring special interests such as Hollywood, Nascar, and green energy.

    In the past, Congress considered carefully new tax laws such as the Bush tax cuts in 2001 or the Tax Reform Act of 1986. No longer.

    This is especially relevant to the carbon tax, because a quickly-passed carbon tax in the hands of Congress would be just another add-on levy, with exemptions for friends and punishments for enemies.

    Proponents of the carbon tax include a bipartisan group of economic professors such as University of California’s Robert Reich, Harvard’s Martin Feldstein, Edward Glaeser, and Gregory Mankiw, Columbia University’s Joseph Stiglitz, and Cornell University’s Robert Frank.

    The conservative American Enterprise Institute has held several conferences on the merits of the carbon tax, the latest on November 13. It featured Gilbert Metcalf, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Environment and Energy at the Department of the Treasury, who has written extensively on the design of a carbon tax while a professor at Tufts University.

    What is a carbon tax? Why do so many academics love it? And why does the new tax law prove that it’s an idea whose time has not come?

    The love affair with carbon taxes comes from a concern that energy use is raising global temperatures and causing global warming. No matter that by many measures global temperatures have not increased over the past decade. No matter that American emissions in 2012 were the lowest since 1992. No matter that only 16 percent of global carbon emissions are caused by America, and that reductions would have little effect on global temperatures.

    America has substantial energy reserves, and our air is continually getting cleaner as newer technology takes the place of old. Energy in its many forms confers benefits of comfort and mobility, and if consumers are willing to pay the price, they should use it.

    Proponents claim that in taxing carbon dioxide, Congress would take action to reduce energy use, while raising revenue that would permit a reduction of income tax rates.

    A carbon tax, which would discourage energy consumption, would be simpler and less intrusive than a cap-and-trade system, considered in the 111th Congress. Under that approach, the government would set limits on the emissions of individual plants-electric utilities, petrochemicals, and others. Emitters would have to buy permits from the government. Plants emitting less than their allowance could sell unneeded permits to those exceeding their limits.

    In contrast, a carbon tax raises the price of energy and so discourages consumption without regulation. Some claim that carbon tax rates could be calibrated to be revenue neutral or to yield a net rise in federal tax receipts, with the increment possibly dedicated to reducing deficits.

    Treasury Department official Metcalf concluded that a 10 percent rise in the price of energy would result in a 3 percent reduction in consumption. He suggested a tax rate of $15 per ton of CO2.

    U.S. carbon emissions in 2012 were about 5.2 billion metric tons, so the Metcalf proposed tax would raise about $78 billion a year, assuming that industrial consumers used the same amount of energy. If, on the other hand, consumers reduced consumption by about 5 percent, a response suggested by the government’s Energy Information Administration, the tax would raise about $74 billion per year.

    Such a revenue stream could potentially be used to reduce the deficit, to lower individual tax rates, or to pay off sectors of the economy, such as coal, that are unduly harmed by carbon taxes. Since high income tax rates reduce incentives to work, this could conceivably add to economic efficiency.

    While many academic economists see carbon taxes as a substitute for the income tax, many tax policy analysts see the carbon tax as an additional source of revenue. Historically, the income tax has not been lowered as new excise taxes have been brought online. There is little reason to expect the carbon tax will lower income taxes where other new tax revenues have failed.

    Moreover, carbon taxes are regressive. Since low-income people use more energy as a percentage of their income than high-income people, low-income households were bear a higher share of the carbon tax burden. Those policymakers who seek to avoid regressive taxes, including much of Congress, might add complex income transfers to low-income groups to lessen their tax burden.

    This is not simple, because many low-income earners are not required to file returns, and they would have to do so in order to be identified and compensated.

    Another problem is that carbon-intensive sectors, such as coal, would be the biggest losers under the new tax. Politicians from coal-producing regions are influential in Congress and they would demand a share of revenues.

    Finally, a carbon tax in America raises the prices of energy-intensive goods relative to imports from countries without carbon taxes. One effect of a carbon tax is that Americans would increasingly prefer to buy imports of energy-intensive goods, and American firms would correspondingly lose business. Proponents of the tax suggest putting tariffs on imports in proportion to their carbon content so that American companies would not be at a disadvantage. But the precise quantities are complex to calculate, and tariffs might be illegal under World Trade Organization regulations.

    So, for a carbon tax to make our tax system more efficient, many fine-tuned adjustments would be necessary. First, its revenues would have to be used to lower income taxes. Second, its negative effects on low-income Americans and on energy-intensive regions would have to be ameliorated. Third, border adjustments would have to be made so that domestic goods were not disfavored. Each of these adjustments would require careful analysis and formulation.

    But the lesson from the American Taxpayer Relief Act of 2012 shows that Congress is incapable of crafting a carbon tax with these attributes, even if they are given a decade’s warning. Under our system of government, any tax on carbon would be an additional tax, without the offsets that make it so attractive to academics. It would hurt the poor and raise prices in America compared to overseas.

    A carbon tax would just be another regressive revenue raiser, costing $75 billion a year, hurting the poor, disadvantaging American manufactures, and all without any effect on global temperatures. After the American Taxpayer Relief Act of 2012, anyone who thinks otherwise is naïve.

    Diana Furchtgott-Roth is a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute.

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  190. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Griff, my objection to a fertilizer tax is as I stated – use of fertilizer is already in decline as any cost that can be avoided by minimising use will be. I am not that supportive of a fart tax, just referring to that the ETS focused on this.

    IMO the best way to manage increasing farm emissions (transfer to dairying) are by minimum farm standards as to environment practice. This on the one hand protects waterways and also effectively means constraints on stocking levels.

    In the past decade rising land value places upward pressure on stock levels – this creates a periodic crisis, whenever weather is not optimum for stock farming. Some contraint on stock levels, places a lid on land values beofre things get really out of hand.

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  191. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    The Calls have been echoed on here I was just pointing to a sane right wing reason for doing so not Janettes make jobs processing a reduced output green spin
    Meh if it was me pulling the strings with no constituents to keep happy
    I would do national sell down of soes to offshore investors. Then close bluff and buy the assets back at a reduced rate :lol:
    The investors would think we are arse holes put it would make the current acount look real good.

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  192. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Griff

    Of course there is peak oil, it is just that the arrival of when has been deferred by the arrival of shale oil and gas.

    Saying we have enough coal for hundreds of years is like saying that Saudi Arabia and Norway have enough oil for centuries – but this only applies if no one exports anything.

    The earlier we use renewables the longer finite resources will last. And the slower the rate of warming.

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  193. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Griff. that is devious, it would be like suggesting to the government they cut road user charges, before they bid to buy back rail and then after doing so, then increase road user charges. As someone did apparently.

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  194. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    minimum farm standards as to environment practice
    Adding a layer of bureaucracy and encouraging slight of hand minimization and evasion. The more rules the more fiscal drag they create. Paper shufflers paradise
    Taxing fertilizer encourages efficient use and is transparent unavoidable cheap to implement and directly user pays
    It would directly encourage efficient use of fertilizer the major environmental problem after stock waterway damage

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  195. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    Griff, a fertilizer tax on someone who had already reduced fertilzer use to the minimum required, is just a tax/added cost to the business.

    Just get to the minimum farm standard and operate at a low cost once there.

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  196. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Dont scare the horses as soon as you say renewable they bolt for the hills
    I lived on renewable energy for six years wind and solar have their place just not if there are cheaper alternatives
    Hydro and Geo thermal are where the focus should be They are the glean green energy sources and we if we kill all the greens have plenty of scope to develop more in the future.
    The only point of solar and wind is it gives you a good way to fleece investors. There is room for both technology in the future but both are to intermittent for base line on the grid and solar is still to expensive. Diversified generation also has value.

    From the right wing perspective
    Use the pretext of green generation to loosen the RMAs hold on development the NIMBY and greens will allow it if its sold on allowing green energy to be developed. win win green and more ability to extract other resources as well.

    Encourage investment in micro hydro and grid tye solar again by relaxing the rma included with a little push on the grid owners to allow a descent payback for grid tye small generation investment. Both solar and hydro on this scale allow more flexibility in power sources. and small investor involvement. why buy a pious when you can have a house covered in solar panels which makes the whole neighbor hood think you are a green :lol:

    diversified generation act as a buffer if a major event hits our large generating plants. hence would have a strategic advantage in these shaky islands It also could solve the transmission problems we face with most power capacity in the south and usage in the north

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  197. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    User pays if you dont add lots of chicken shit it does not run into the waterways. If your farm uses little fertilizer why should you pay a tax for emissions/pollution you are not making.
    The present effort to clean the waterways is working you will here the farmers moan but they do realize that some of the old ways like pump ya shit into the creek just are not smart
    Its the inspectors mergansers lawyers and general bureaucratic nonsense that a regulatory response attracts that puts me of a legislative response to fertilizer pollution far better to make it a direct tax on the polluting input fertilizerand leave the farmers to work out their cost/benefit of fertilizer use

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  198. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    Pulling no punches: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/01/15/nra-obama-ad/

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