Marriage and Death

January 6th, 2013 at 8:31 am by David Farrar

The HoS publishes a Key Research poll:

POLL

Do you think that same-sex civil unions should be extended to marriage?
• Yes 53.9%
• No 38.1%
• Unsure 8%

Do you think doctors should be allowed by law to end an incurable patient’s life, if the patient requests it?
• Yes 60.5%
• No 18.2%
• Depends on situation 16.2%
• Unsure 5.1%

A very low level of outright opposition to the proposition.

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144 Responses to “Marriage and Death”

  1. mudrunner (91 comments) says:

    Ah yes, the poll avoided the use of the evocative “euthanasia” word and got a response that seems typical of that in general discussion. The results would have been less in favour, I suspect had it been used, as you did David.

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  2. Andrei (2,668 comments) says:

    A very low level of outright opposition to the euthanasia proposition.

    There was once a gulliable people
    who believed in Santa Claus
    but when Santa came
    he was the Gas Man

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  3. SPC (5,775 comments) says:

    1. Those opposed to same sex marriages, because they claim that homosexuality is a choice rather than an identity, should consider why churches have the category of celibate homosexual within their clergy. These people were and are not
    sexually active and yet identify as homosexual.

    2. the second result is so strong because it refers to doctors being the arbiters and because it refers to the applicants as incurable patients.

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  4. Reg (539 comments) says:

    As yo have told us before David, you can get vitually any resultyou want from a poll by skewing the questions.
    I gues you could gett these results reversed if the questions were reframed like this:
    – Do you think two homosexuals should be able to legitimitise their behavior by being able to marry?
    – Do you think doctors should be able to murder terminally ill persons?

    [DPF: Of course questions matter. But the examples you give are biased false questions that use term such as murder when it clearly is about patient request. The questions used in this poll are fairly neutral. Just because some questions can be biased or leading does not mean all of them are.]

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  5. Manolo (14,065 comments) says:

    “Lies, damned lies, and statistics” is a phrase used to describe the persuasive power of numbers….

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  6. SPC (5,775 comments) says:

    One the first poll, referring to extending civil unions to marriages probably reduces the support level for same sex marriage because some will see civil unions as sufficient to provide legal status to the relationships. Many opponents base their position on civil unions beiung sufficient.

    One the second, constraining the decison as one for doctors only and limited to those with an incurable illness who are in house patients (suggestive of being required to be in hospital, rather than being an out-patient who is dying and who does not require hospitalisation yet) boosts the support level.

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  7. iMP (2,422 comments) says:

    Statistically, 100% of all divorces occur among married couples.

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  8. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    And Andrei receives today’s Godwin award.

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  9. Urban Redneck (234 comments) says:

    The four pillars of the death cult that is liberalism.

    Abortion. Euthanasia. Sodomy. Drugs.

    And as for voluntary euthanasia, it very soon becomes involuntary euthanasia as the Dutch have discovered. Former Dutch Health Minister Els Boorst, who was key in steering euthanasia legislation through Parliament now acknowledges the whole thing was a mistake and the focus should’ve been on better palliative care.

    Euthanasia is an option for people who don’t have to face it. Consider an opinion poll in Holland which found 70% support for euthanasia in the general public, but found 90% opposition in the nursing home population. As one doctor put it, “Patients in Holland, and they are well documented, who do not actually want euthanasia are being talked or pressured into it by families, and I find that concept very difficult.”

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  10. MT_Tinman (3,257 comments) says:

    Do you think doctors should be allowed by law to end an incurable patient’s life, if the patient requests it?

    Allowed? It should be bloody compulsory and yes, given the situation I will ask for it.

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  11. graham (2,346 comments) says:

    Really, MT_Tinman? You think a doctor should be forced to kill someone, murder someone, help them end their own life – call it what you want – no matter what that doctor’s own personal feelings, if that person asks them to?

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  12. MT_Tinman (3,257 comments) says:

    Yes.

    Love the way you use “murder” graham.

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  13. ChardonnayGuy (1,215 comments) says:

    It’s interesting to see majority support for marriage equality at almost sixty percent, with opposition still stranded below the halfway mark. As for the euthanasia result, well, yes- but as I’ve said before, unless the New Zealand Medical Association either declares neutrality or agrees to regulated procedures as has been the case in the Netherlands, Belgium and Oregon (US), legislative reform will be stillborn.

    I see the fundie contingent still haven’t answered this question:

    If one barracks vigorously for a binding CIR against marriage equality, how can one therefore stop a libertarian result on the issue of euthanasia law reform, as has occurred in Oregon, Washington state, and two Swiss referenda to date?

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  14. kowtow (8,774 comments) says:

    It’s not marriage “equality” it’s a parody.

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  15. Komata (1,202 comments) says:

    Aren’t these results also a striking indication of the success of the ‘liberal education’ cabal within the NZ education system – those installed by Clark et al? The carefully indoctrinated Gen Y’s are the result and this is shown in the results. Sadly, the propoganda is still being taught.

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  16. Left Right and Centre (2,997 comments) says:

    I thought doctors performed some form of euthanasia around the world with the old too much morphine trick etc?

    Changing social attitudes…. hmmmm

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  17. bc (1,377 comments) says:

    Isn’t it funny how some people (redbaiter where are you!) always state that anyone who holds a viewpoint that is different to theirs has been brainwashed, fed propoganda etc etc.

    Implication: my viewpoint is the right one because I think for myself, yours is wrong because you can’t

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  18. bc (1,377 comments) says:

    Is Komata the new rebaiter for 2013?

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  19. MT_Tinman (3,257 comments) says:

    Komata, no.

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  20. bc (1,377 comments) says:

    For up and coming redbaiters:

    How to deal with the fact that everyone else holds a viewpoint different to mine:
    [A summarised checklist and without the usual torrents of abuse]
    1) It is due to my superior intellect – everyone else is stupid and a liberal
    2) Blame the liberals (liberals, liberals – they are everywhere!)
    3) Blame the media (they are full of liberals!)
    4) Blame the teachers(liberals again!) brainwashing the youth who clearly can’t think for themselves
    5) Blame Helen Clark
    6) It my argument still doesn’t convince anyone (stupid liberals!) start abusing them

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  21. kowtow (8,774 comments) says:

    bc reminds me of that line from Hamlet (is it even taught any more)

    The lady doth protest too much,methinks.

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  22. dave (988 comments) says:

    Statistically, 100% of all divorces occur among married couples.

    nearly 100% of all marriages occur among people who are neither a husband or a wife, too. Amazing, really…

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  23. eszett (2,430 comments) says:

    However they may be an ex-husband or ex-wife. And multiples of them as well.

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  24. kowtow (8,774 comments) says:

    At least they are husand and wife!

    Husband and husband ,wife and wife…….the joys of “equality”!

    Better still that marvellous socialist term,the gender neutral “partner”.Another concept relentlessly pushed by our socialist,liberal media/academia.

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  25. Fletch (6,494 comments) says:

    1. Those opposed to same sex marriages, because they claim that homosexuality is a choice rather than an identity, should consider why churches have the category of celibate homosexual within their clergy. These people were and are not
    sexually active and yet identify as homosexual.

    SPC because homosexuality is seen as a disorder, much the same as alcoholism is a disorder. You can be an alcoholic and not drink. Here is what the Catholic Church says about homosexuality in the Catechism.

    Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

    2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

    2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

    ps, any question you might want to know about the Catholic Church can be found in the Catechism of the Church.
    Online version HERE

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  26. Fletch (6,494 comments) says:

    ps, someone has just pointed out that, regarding the last question, a person who is a celiac, is colour blind, or is asthmatic also has an “incurable disease”.

    I’m supposing they have the right to end their lives as well?

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  27. Griff (8,194 comments) says:

    I looked at your web site Fletch and wounder if you could tell me as the site does not have the numbers.

    How much has the church spent in paying out for the damage done to choir boys by homokiddyfid priests?

    I understand it has bankrupted some dioceses in the USA

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  28. Andrei (2,668 comments) says:

    How much has the church spent in paying out for the damage done to choir boys by homokiddyfid priests?

    I understand it has bankrupted some dioceses in the USA

    Indeed Griff but the vast majority of people who were sexually abused in childhood were abused by someone who could not be squeezed for money thirty years later.

    Indeed squeezing the Catholic Church for money over abuses (both real or in the mind of the accuser) has become a cash cow for personal injury lawyers in the good ol’ USA.

    Alas the Government covers its butt over its employees and the long dead seedy old man down the street didn’t have much money anyway so the “victims” haven’t got any show of getting anything – so we don’t hear about them so much

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  29. Fletch (6,494 comments) says:

    Griff, I see you’re using your Alinksy tactics again. Number #12 to be precise –

    RULE 12: “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.”

    You know as well as I do that there is no more abuse in the Church than there is secular organisations such as schools. It’s just that the media likes to report on Church scandal more.

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  30. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    So despite the never ending moralising & bleating from the God Squad the poll results go against them. We’ll now be assailed with Chicken Little homilies about decadence & the end of civilisation as we know it.

    Hooray….looks like God’s on our side after all. :D

    Atheists 1, Religious Nutters 0.

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  31. Griff (8,194 comments) says:

    Schools don’t post on here claiming to be the fount of all morals the church or its representatives on here do.

    To do so you would need to be above reproach the catholic church is not

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  32. Reid (16,634 comments) says:

    Probably a waste of time but here’s a book written in the 1950’s by a psychiatrist called The power of sexual surrender by Marie Robinson.

    She explains how women tick and when you know that you will see how feminism destroys femeninity which explains the social devastation we see around us in particular with respect to marriage and family.

    As I say probably a waste of time, but perhaps one or two of the wise will gain some insight and wisdom.

    http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.l0056310659;seq=4;view=1up

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  33. SPC (5,775 comments) says:

    Fletch, my point was that this is the way they are – whether you accept their sexual orientation or call it some disorder (like sex outside of marriage, pre-marital sex or failure to be chaste outside of marriage is a disorder?) is beside the point.

    Various churches have a similar position, whether they rationalise same sex orinetation identy as a disorder or not.

    And it was in part a response to someone who tried to argue that same sex identity was itself a chosen behaviour. You as it happens.

    Fletch (3,676) Says:
    January 4th, 2013 at 6:48 pm

    …. The Pope said recently in a speech –

    The manipulation of nature, which we deplore today where our environment is concerned, now becomes man’s fundamental choice where he himself is concerned. From now on there is only the abstract human being, who chooses for himself what his nature is to be.

    This is what seems to be happening. As far as environmentalists are concerned, what is natural is good and right and moral except when it comes to human nature, in which case what is ‘right’ is whatever the person desires. It’s like just because they desire something then it must be OK (as far as homosexual desire), even if it goes against the very nature and physiology of a human being.

    ….

    It’s worth pointing out that as far as orientation, the world’s leading expert on the history of homosexuality is Dr David Greenburg, a New York sociologist, who is gay himself and is the author of a 635 page academic study of homosexuality through the ages called “The Construction of Homosexuality”. It has been hailed within academic circles as the most “extensive and thorough” analysis of homosexuality ever published. And what does he say? That homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. He said he had “an obligation to the truth”. Greenburg looked at all recodred examples of homosexuality. Every single one, he wrote, could be traced back to sexual behaviour practice rather than an innate sexual identity.

    ————————————————–

    Are you arguing that homosexuals in the church are such because of their past sexual behaviour practice has made them gay? And once you try it you can never go back – you’ve been reborn/re-made gay? And your only “valid” option in living a Christian life is from then on celibacy?

    Sounds like a rather singular intepretation of Leviticus Chapter 18 – don’t lie with a man the way you do with a woman – and if you do, don’t go back to women. One wonders what the former head of the evangelical church organisation in the USA did (a married man) after having a massage and oral sex from a gay guy.

    There are many women who married then end up in a relationship with another woman (some go back to men, some don’t) – for some it’s simply a way of coping after a failed marriage. This speaks to the capacity of people to be bisexual and to identify by their current relationship.

    You also wrote

    “I have no problem with two consenting adults doing what they want. They know the Christian view and God’s laws and so it’s up to them whether to break them or not. What I DO have a great deal of problem with is them changing to the law to make their lifestyles legal (as in the case of gay marriage etc), and to promote them as being good and normal and taught to children as being so. Everyone knows the gay lifestyle is a life where disease, dysfunction, substance abuse, suicide, and lower life span is more common – and we want to subject our children to this? Why?”

    The lifestyle of homosexuals is already legal, the issue is whether they can formalise their relationships as heterosexual couples do. The number of children who live openly homeosexual lifestyle won’t increase as a result (that happens when criminalisation of their lifestyle came to an end). And as for the health statistics, some of this is in part a consequence of being of a group of whom there is prejudice and the legacy of a culture formed when under criminalisation. Changing role models since the end of criminalisaton and the emergence of the out couples era will diminish some of that. As to sex practices and health, lesbians have lower levels of STD’s than heterosexuals.

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  34. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    Griff

    You’re just getting hit with the zillionith rerun of the classic Catholic defence…..”Yes, some of our leaders do prefer little boys BUT look over there…..someone else has done it too.

    That somehow makes it okay (or at least deflects the accusations long enough to get the wagons in a circle).

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  35. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    Reid

    Link leads to “service not available”.

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  36. SPC (5,775 comments) says:

    Urban redneck raises a valid point.

    Enabling voluntary euthenasia does require prevention if involuntary euthenasia.

    Some old people will feel vulnerable to expectation that they do the right thing for family and society rather than be a burden – especially given the public debt burden of some nations and their aging demographic – old age health care support cutbacks/rationing.

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  37. Griff (8,194 comments) says:

    Little boy fiddling and the catholic church have a long tradition nasska who can blame the church for trying to retain this grand heritage. if the church continues to covers up and pay up thousands more will enjoy the churches fiddly benevolence.

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  38. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    Griff

    Acceptance & genuine contrition doesn’t seem to a big thing with the Church hierarchy & the attitude filters down through the ranks. The next few months should be interesting as it should all go off in Australia soon.

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  39. kowtow (8,774 comments) says:

    nasskrap and the royal “we” again.

    Nasskrap is funnier than batshit finding common cause with the lunatics of this site,like griff the warmist .

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  40. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    Cometh the hour cometh the man. Your turn to strut the stage & vanquish the non believers ‘kowtow’.

    Put your feet in the starting blocks. :)

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  41. Griff (8,194 comments) says:

    Yes Kow tow faith in the scientific method is batshit crazy basing you whole life around the beliefs of a bunch of ignorant camel jockeys from 2000 years ago is far more logical. The invisible sky pixies is real you can even talk to him :lol:

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  42. cha (4,081 comments) says:

    http://soundcloud.com/illinois-times/st-aloysius-911-call

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  43. Fletch (6,494 comments) says:

    SPC, I don’t think you get where I’m coming from or perhaps we don’t understand each other as to the point we are debating.

    There are many theories, but I don’t think it really matters much what the cause of homosexuality is as regards the argument.

    It all comes down to desire and acting on that desire or not. Whether it is an addictive desire that cannot be controlled or a spur-of-the-moment desire that one just doesn’t want to control. The Church doesn’t regard the desire itself as a sin, just the actions that can result from that desire. eg, you may desire to steal a car or to murder someone, but that desire itself is not a sin until acted on.
    Maybe the desire to steal is something that has developed over time, or maybe it’s just a desire that struck you right now, at this minute.

    The Church says that people with homosexual urges should be celibate, in much the same way that a priest is called to be celibate and the way unmarried persons are called to be celibate.

    Not sure whether that speaks to what you were saying or not.

    As regards STDs I see you mention females and not men – as it is men in which 80% of AIDS cases occur.

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  44. Fletch (6,494 comments) says:

    Griff, as I have said before numerous times – there is no more abuse in the Church than in secular society.

    From Newsweek – Priests Commit No More Abuse Than Other Males – http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/04/07/mean-men.html

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  45. Fletch (6,494 comments) says:

    BTW, I see you’ve managed to derail the topic by diversion to attacking the Church. Well done.

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  46. Fletch (6,494 comments) says:

    There are many arguments against gay marriage that have nothing to do with religion. Many gays are even against gay marriage.

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  47. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    Fletch

    And as has been pointed out an equal number of times…..the “other males” do not moralise, preach or hold themselves up as servants of God.

    Surely God’s flock can expect higher standards from such men.

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  48. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    “Indeed squeezing the Catholic Church for money over abuses (both real or in the mind of the accuser) has become a cash cow for personal injury lawyers in the good ol’ USA.”

    There you go folks. The catholic church (the most corrupt and evil organisation on the face of the earth) is a victim in all of this. Those priests didn’t really sexually molest little boys and girls, it was all in their minds.

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  49. Griff (8,194 comments) says:

    Fletch as I have said before if you want to throw stones be with out sin.
    recognize the quote?
    Pity the church does not follow the words attributed to the bastard of Bethlehem
    How can you promote the anti homo agenda of the church yet at the same time downplay the systematic homokiddyfiddling condoned in fact abetted by the same church . Hypocrisy from the god squad how unusual

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  50. eszett (2,430 comments) says:

    there is no more abuse in the Church than in secular society.

    Funny how the absolute moralist quickly turns a relativist when it suits him.

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  51. eszett (2,430 comments) says:

    Many gays are even against gay marriage.

    Many gays are for gay marriage. And many, many straight people are for allowing them to do so.
    Get over it.

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  52. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    The Church doesn’t regard the desire itself as a sin

    Unless its your neighbours, in which case coveting is indeed a sin.

    Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

    http://godstenlaws.com/ten-commandments/index.html#.UOjNXHwaySM

    So if you’re even thinking about wanting your neighbour’s manservant (not to mention his ass) then you are most assuredly in trouble.

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  53. Dennis Horne (2,403 comments) says:

    This is not about equality. Homosexuals don’t want to be married. Homosexuals want to be “normal”. Normalisation of deviance.

    How many will get married? Let the experiment begin.

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  54. Griff (8,194 comments) says:

    Why is there no exemption for covering your neighbors wife’s ass?

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  55. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    Why is there no exemption for covering your neighbors wife’s ass?

    Griff,

    At the time they were written, the wife was not allowed to own her own ass – her ass was her husband’s property and therefore also his ass.

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  56. eszett (2,430 comments) says:

    Dennis Horne (200) Says:
    January 6th, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    This is not about equality. Homosexuals don’t want to be married. Homosexuals want to be “normal”. Normalisation of deviance.

    How many will get married?

    Homosexuals are “normal”. They are in every walk of life and are generally accepted by the majority of the population as much as everyone else is accepted.

    Why does it matter how many will get married? Is there a quota? How many straight couples get married?

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  57. Griff (8,194 comments) says:

    covet mind you covering in horse speak is the result

    bugger the no edit DPF is disenfranchising us functionally illiterates :grin:

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  58. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    Dennis Horne

    How is wanting to have sex with another consenting adult deviant behaviour?

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  59. kowtow (8,774 comments) says:

    Arseholes are for shitting out of and if you don’t understand that ,there’s no point going any further.

    Sodomy, from crime to human right in one generation. Brilliant play by the progressives.

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  60. Griff (8,194 comments) says:

    homo kiddyfiddling has a long and proud tradition within the church in new Zealand
    When William yates reached Sydney in June 1836, he was appointed temporarily as chaplain to St James’ Church and before he could return to New Zealand, the scandal had broken. Four sworn affidavits from Maori youths, his pupils, were subsequently sent from New Zealand by the missionaries as testimony of his having practiced oral sex and mutual masturbation

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  61. Griff (8,194 comments) says:

    sorry forgot the link
    http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/biographies/1y1/1

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  62. SPC (5,775 comments) says:

    kowtow the original sodomy laws included a prohibition on oral sex (any sex that could occur between men was banned for men and women).

    Now oral sex between married couples is nearly mandatory. And as for anal sex, more heterosexuals are doing this than there are gay men (and not all gay men do this).

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  63. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    Griff

    Well, that put paid to the theory, that has been advanced previously on these threads, to the effect that it was the general air of depravity, liberalism & sin within modern society that allowed perverts to be recruited as God’s helpers.

    What other excuses will be put to the sword this arvo? :)

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  64. SPC (5,775 comments) says:

    bhudson, I think Fletch is right on the desire thing, coveting is misinterpreted as the desire – when it is more the attempt to act on desire – someone can attempt to murder and to steal or to commit fraud (false witness) because of desire for property or to get at the widow. Or simply attempt to seduce the married women. Their failure to kill, commit adultery or to steal or to successfully commit fraud does not make them innocent of the attempt. But they are not guilty of having the desire.

    Some property and some married women are simply desirable. Noticing is simply noticing.

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  65. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    Kowtow, you really are hilarious.

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  66. Griff (8,194 comments) says:

    Definitely right there nasska Traditional homokiddyfiddling from within the church for the entire history of this country
    some things just don’t change
    The church and molesting little boys is one

    For historical interest here is the depositions from the abused little Maori boys

    From Pehi:

    Since we have been living in Waimate [North], after the return of Mr Yate from Waiapu [on the East Coast] he urged me. … He said to me, “We will go together … for a piece of tobacco for you.” He said to me, “Unbutton your trousers.” I said to him, “For what purpose should I unbutton them?” He said to me, “/Kia *titoitoi* taua/.” (In order to masturbate each other.) …He said to me, “/W[h]akatoratorangia ti ti/” (Make it erect [until it] tingles.) I went to him three times, once at Pateretere, … He called to me, … “I’ll break your head with my penis.” (The missionary translators take refuge in Latin to say that oral sex followed.)

    From Philip Tohi:

    The commencement was a playing … Mr Yate told the men to stand before him, to unbutton their trousers that he might see their —-. He was very merry… He ordered me and said, “Let us two go to my room upstairs.” … He then came and took my hand and dragged me on to his bed. The buttons of my trousers were undone and of his also. We lay together on his bed. We took hold of each other’s penis, /kia titoitoi taua/. He then gave me ten rings. I cannot count how many times I went to him.

    From Samuel Kohi:

    He said to me, “All Europeans act thus while they are single men. Then because they sleep with their wives, this practice is left off. But as for me, my wife is this, a hand.” I said to him, “By whom were you taught this practice? He said to me, “By my father I was taught this practice in my childhood.” … I went to him three times before my baptism, and since my baptism I have been many times, more than I can count.

    From Toatoua:

    When I was a little boy,… He saw my penis and said it was no bigger than a rat’s tail, and we did /titoitoi/. He gave me one pipe and one fig of tobacco.

    Clearly, Yate’s tastes were somewhat paedophilic and exploitive, nor were they confined to New Zealand: fellow missionary Richard Taylor, who had been on the “Prince Regent” with him, wrote “He was accused of the same crime at the Tonga Isles, New Zealand, Van Diemen’s Land [Tasmania], and every time he visited this colony.”

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  67. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    I guess that confirms what we suspected Griff:

    NZ Catholicism……proudly fiddling the youth of the nation for 176 years. :D

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  68. Andrei (2,668 comments) says:

    Well Griff your chortling over William Yates goes to prove how perverse so called “gays” really are.

    Frank Sargeson wrote about him, of course, to expound upon the idea that our concept “sin” was a cultural artifact and
    Anna Marie Jagose had him as the central character in her book “slow waters”, where he was a “victim” of hypocritical homophobia. Her wretched book won a literary prize of course.

    But despite the plethora of literary tosh homosexuality remains what it always has been, an aberation

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  69. Andrei (2,668 comments) says:

    nasska;
    William Yates was an Anglican – they have gay “bishops” in these days of wonder of course

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  70. ChardonnayGuy (1,215 comments) says:

    And you are free to believe whatever premodern, prescientific Augustinian and Thomist dogma you wish, Andrei. Incidentally, I do find your sectarianism amusing. Yes, Anglicans do have gay bishops, and even ‘worse’ female bishops. Of course, ordination of women has put paid to any priestly pedophilia within mainstream Anglican churches, because women don’t tolerate sexual predators who prey on children as a rule. Thank goodness for feminist theology and ethics!

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  71. SPC (5,775 comments) says:

    Fletch, I mentioned females because of your presumption that same sex activity was more of a health risk than hetero sexual activity. In the case of females it is not.

    As for your claim, that 80% of the AIDS cases involve men, I presume you mean in the West.

    Apparently sexuality on Earth (and its consequences) is greater than some western heterosexual pricks can comprehend (no personal insult intended).

    PS The God book declares authoritavely on a range of matters – that we now understand better. Often its point was to prohibit things that could have health risk – such as poor hygiene in food handling (keeping blood out of the kitchen and foods that needed to be cooked away from fresh food) or unsafe sexual practices. In the days before household water supplies even oral sex between couples involved some health risk, today we can put the risk in some context – given we cane easily shower every day etc and before sex. Those who choose to run sex education classes, informing people about their options for contraception and safe sex practices can include information about the relative risk of sexual practices – those who don’t or won’t will simply stay with the old missionary position – say no, or don’t do that, lest God strike you down with fire and brimstone if you do.

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  72. Griff (8,194 comments) says:

    Homosexuality has as much to do with homokiddyfiddling as heterosexuality has with hetrokiddyfiddling
    I have no time for persons who have sex with a child
    Between consulting adults it is their business
    Between adult and choirboy or young convert is kiddyfiddling and invades the rights of a child to freedom from exploitation by those in more powerful social positions.

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  73. Andrei (2,668 comments) says:

    ChardonnayGuy;
    Not being sectarian, just setting Nasska straight

    Of course, ordination of women has put paid to any priestly pedophilia within mainstream Anglican churches

    Yeah right

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  74. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    Andrei

    You may well be right. The ‘Reformed Churches’ website states:

    “The Rev William Yates was removed as a missionary
    and also dismissed from the society
    in 1837 on charges of homosexuality.
    William Williams wrote that Yates had
    brought “much dishonour on the holy
    cause of Christ in this land.”

    Wikipedia also mentions a William Yates who was a missionary about the same time as being a Baptist.

    In any case all it proves is that boy botherers, then as now, will put themselves in positions that give ready access to their intended victims. The churches were a prime target then & now.

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  75. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Do you think that same-sex civil unions should be extended to marriage?

    What sort of question is that? What exactly does ‘extending a union to marriage’ entail?

    Did the HoS create the question passing it off as that of Key Research, or did Key Research have a 10 year old employee do this?

    Why not ask questions that go to the heart of the issue, for example:-

    1. Should the definition of marriage be
    (a) Retained as it is today
    (b) Widened so that same-sex couples are permitted to use this title
    (c) Widened so that same-sex couples, multi-partner relationships and unions with animals are permitted to use this title

    2. if you selected (b) or (c) from the previous question, then should same-sex couples (and/or other unions types) be permitted to legally adopt children?
    Yes, or No.

    As for euthanasia – totally opposed. Selfish human nature will see the frail encouraged, however subtly or not, to end their lives ‘for everyone’s benefit’.

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  76. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    Andrei

    A question, or two, for you and the bigoted Lucia should she be lurking.

    How does it affect your life if two men choose to engage in anal sex?

    How does it affect your life if those same men decide to get married?

    If you can offer a reasoned argument then I will support you, if you can show me that allowing two men or two females to get married is going to harm modern society then I will be on your side.

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  77. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    bhudson, I think Fletch is right on the desire thing, coveting is misinterpreted as the desire – when it is more the attempt to act on desire

    @SPC,

    The dictionary doesn’t agree with you on that.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Covet?s=t

    Desire is sin if it relates to your neighbour

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  78. Andrei (2,668 comments) says:

    Andrei

    A question, or two, for you and the bigoted Lucia should she be lurking.

    An impolite phrasing but never the less I will give you the coutesy o a reply

    How does it affect your life if two men choose to engage in anal sex?

    It doesn’t and I couldn’t care less if they do

    How does it affect your life if those same men decide to get married?

    Marriage is at its heart all about raising children and those of us who have invested the best part of our substance and adult lives into raising children hope and work towards them doing the same in their turn. In other words we hope to see them happy and fulfilled and we hope to live long enough to see our grandchildren.

    So called “gay marriage” is about the needs of the adults entering into it not about the needs of children arising from it – this is where it differs from marriage as it was handed down to us from our ancestors.

    Rewriting the meaning from that which is about other people and the future to one that is about immediate personal gratification is dangerous, selfish and incredibly foolish.

    All of us are only here because our ancestors put their children before themselves and raised them to adulthood where they did the same. When marriage ceases to be about this, less people put in the hard yards and sacrifices required to raise well adjusted children and that will be a social catastrophe.

    The damage already done to marriage by the so called “enlightened” is already apparent, so let’s fix that not make it worse

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  79. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    Krazykiwi

    You may fairly be opposed to euthanasia on your own account but I query that you have an equal right to dictate the terms of another’s death. I concede that some could be pressured by unscrupulous family members into getting it over & done with but I doubt that it is beyond the wit of man to build adequate safeguards into any enabling legislation.

    IMHO the problem should be addressed in the same way that wills dictate asset distribution & enduring powers of attorney cover resuscitation & medical intervention involving prolonging of life. A person who is judged sufficiently sane & in possession of their own free will to indicate their wishes in those respects is also competent to demand euthanasia at a predetermined point of their journey to death.

    If someone lacks the foresight to indicate their wishes in advance then tough luck but in a secular society one’s own life & body is theirs, not the property of society.

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  80. Fletch (6,494 comments) says:

    In 1958 a book was published called The Naked Communist by Cleon Skousen, a former F.B.I agent, who in the book lays out what the Communist goals and aims are.

    Here are some of the 45 points that the book puts forward as being then-current Communist strategies or goals –

    * Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of “separation of church and state.”

    * Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity, masturbation and easy divorce.

    * Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers’ associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

    * Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them “censorship” and a violation of free speech and free press.

    * Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

    * Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as “normal, natural, healthy.”

    * Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.
    Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.

    * Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with “social” religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a “religious crutch.”

    Sounds a lot like today ey? And the above is from 1958! Looks like they are well on their way.

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  81. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    Andrei

    So what you are telling me is that my marriage is void in your eyes (and the eyes of the church) because my partner and I have decided that we do not want children?

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  82. Andrei (2,668 comments) says:

    So what you are telling me is that my marriage is void in your eyes (and the eyes of the church) because my partner and I have decided that we do not want children?

    Did I say that? – No!

    Did I say anything like that – No!

    I you decided not to have children, to make yourself, your wife or both of you diliberately barren to evade the responsinilites of adulthood and parenthood you are a fool. You have deprived yourself on purpose of that which is denied many through misfortune or bad lack.

    But it is not my place to force people to make good choices, healthy choices, I am after all not a member of the National Party who approve big government nanny statism,

    So if people want to make themselves barren, or sodomize each other, eat themselves to death, smoke good luck to them I say Live and let live.

    But don’t give me bullshit about all choices being natural, admirable or anything else because trhey are not

    Homosexuality is for loosers. You ever seem the sad old lonely queers who have nobody – they are truely pitiable creatures

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  83. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    nasska –

    You may fairly be opposed to euthanasia on your own account but I query that you have an equal right to dictate the terms of another’s death

    Where did I claim that right? In defence of a fellow human, I do claim the right to stop you (or your kin’s doctor) from having the option to suggest that an ill relative should ‘do the decent thing’, because ‘its in everyone’s best interest, you understand, yes?’ etc etc.

    To wit:

    The Dutch government, concerned over accusations that the practice of euthanasia was being abused, undertook studies in 1990, 1995 and in 2001. Physicians were guaranteed anonymity and immunity for what they revealed in regard to violations of the guidelines.

    It quickly became apparent that half of Dutch doctors had no hesitation in suggesting their patients consider euthanasia, which compromised the voluntariness of the process. In addition, fifty percent of cases were not reported.

    Even more alarming was the fact that a quarter of the physicians said that they “terminated the lives of patients without an explicit request” from the patient, and another third of the physicians said that they could conceive of doing so.

    The usual response to evidence of this type is “Yes, but, but that’ll never happen here”. Bullshit. Of course it will.

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  84. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    Andrei

    You claim that you did “not say that” yet then go on to preach to me about how I should live my life and confirm the very things that you have denied saying. I suppose that should come as no surprise given that you are a religious bigot of the very worst kind.

    It is it any wonder that so many people are turning away from your fundamentalist life style, is it any wonder that most people choose to laugh at the way you see life and most are supporting the very things that you spend your bigoted time fighting against?

    Make no mistake Andrei, when the gay marriage bill and the euthanasia bill are passed I will raise a glass in celebration. Not just because gays will have equality and not just because the individual can decide when their suffering should come to an end but also because it will be a huge slap in the face for you small minded religious bigots. That day will be a victory for equality, human rights and atheism.

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  85. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    krazykiwi

    In your 4.08pm:

    …”As for euthanasia – totally opposed. Selfish human nature will see the frail encouraged, however subtly or not, to end their lives ‘for everyone’s benefit’.”…..

    …..which I read as supporting a blanket opposition to euthanasia.

    If however, you have no objection to a person requesting in advance that should they be suffering a terminal illness from which there was no cure that they be eased out of this world then I largely agree. I have no wish to see old people being put down willy-nilly but I have an equal aversion to dying like a dog because euthanasia may be contrary to some unknown nutjob’s religious beliefs.

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  86. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    “That day will be a victory for equality, human rights and atheism.”

    ..and Karl Marx if he were still alive would be the first to join you in drinking to those objectives, you shallow ignorant useful idiot. What you need to do is stay out of politics and stick to where your real skills are, that is the virtue free task of selling clocked jap lemons to bennies.

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  87. mikenmild (11,742 comments) says:

    Who could object to equality, human rights and atheism. Quite a few people apparently, especially those who struggle to understand concepts like fairness and rationality.

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  88. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Now now nasska, you’re displaying some fine bigotry there. Where did I mention my faith in connection with my opinion about euthanasia? The kinds of subtlety that you used here would come in handy when you carefully work on the thinking, and actions of an ill relative.

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  89. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    Yes of course Milky, the communism you constantly cheer for has such a record of success where ever and when ever it has been implemented.

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  90. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    krazykiwi

    Quick footwork there! :)

    You’ve neatly avoided confirming your position but still only worth a C+. Out with it even if it chokes you…..does a person have the right to dictate their OWN exit from life in advance?

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  91. kowtow (8,774 comments) says:

    Who could object to equality,human rights and atheism?

    When you look at what those concepts has led to in modern Britain ,a huge and growing number. It will possibly even destroy the UK Conservative party,which in its current incarnation would be a good thing.

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  92. Andrei (2,668 comments) says:

    Make no mistake Andrei, when the gay marriage bill and the euthanasia bill are passed I will raise a glass in celebration. Not just because gays will have equality and not just because the individual can decide when their suffering should come to an end but also because it will be a huge slap in the face for you small minded religious bigots. That day will be a victory for equality, human rights and atheism.

    The bolded statement highlighted the maturity of your thinking – juvenile pleasure in pissing people off.

    Gays will never have “equality” Big Bruv because it is not something that can be granted with a stroke of a Big Government pen.

    The unique nature of a male/female pairing can not be legislated for, nor against – it is what it is.

    You claim that you did “not say that” yet then go on to preach to me about how I should live my life and confirm the very things that you have denied saying.

    Heh????

    I told you you a free to live your life as you choose – I also told you you are making a bad choice, you are free to accept or reject what I am telling you. Its your life.

    One last thing though you might like to consider before cheering (the) day (that) will be a victory for equality, human rights and atheism too loudly is this – The non existent atheist kids you didn’t bother to raise will well and truly be trumped by the four Pravoslavnyye khristianskiye kids we did, not to forgeting the fact thay have seventeen cousins some of whom are already started producing the next generation of Pravoslavnyye khristianskiye kids.

    Your Pyrrhic victory might be quite short lived.

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  93. cha (4,081 comments) says:

    Fletch, you’re in good company with your fan boy adoration of the Mormon crank and his book.

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  94. kowtow (8,774 comments) says:

    kk

    Don’t expect anything but bigotry from nasskrap.

    If there’s one thing that gets his juices going it’s a shit fling at anything to do with Christianity,him, bigot bollox and dawincing one.Joined regularly by their commie fellow travellers.At least one can forgive the commies as sworn and open enemies of the west,but those 3 pretend to espouse the west and her freedoms.

    They’re a tag team of tuggers.

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  95. mikenmild (11,742 comments) says:

    I’d be surprised if Reddy could even define communism, let alone accurately identify a communist from remarks on euthanasia and same-sex marriage.

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  96. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    Redbaiter

    I am not “in politics”, I simply pass comments on the issues of the day.

    I stand for freedom, to be able to do what one likes within the rule of law and to be free to speak out against what I see as being wrong. Unlike you Redbaiter I do not seek to impose my lifestyle upon others and I do not want to reduce the rights and the freedom of others.

    You are a dinosaur Redbaiter, a sad and angry old man who yearns for a time long past when you knew how society worked. The thing is grandad that society has moved on, we no longer live by the rules set by bigots like you and thankfully most of us know that the cold war ended over 20 years ago.

    So while you check under your bed tonight for any ‘reds’ who might have crawled under there the rest of us will rest easy with the world as we find it in 2013, sure there might be some things we want to change but by and large we are pretty happy with the way things are. Very few of us yearn for the stifled and bigoted days of your youth.

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  97. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    Oh look, there’s the smirking commie coward Cha with his cool links again, and what is he up to but the same old same old- no argument, just cowardly smears.

    How do you expect to win people to your argument Cha when all you have is contributions that make you look like low life vermin?

    Such virtue less people as yourself and Bigot Bruv and Milky and the like, and your rise to social and political power, are the reason so many people in the western world today are extremely fearful of what the future holds.

    Some of us, not so ignorant of history, know you for what you really are.

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  98. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    Bigot Bruv, don’t preach to me.

    If there’s one thing I don’t need its another elongated self indulgent and boring sermon from another bigoted ignorant shuffling mongoloid halfwit. Just fuck off.

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  99. Griff (8,194 comments) says:

    Reddy has a very simple definition of a communist MM it encompasses all that do not fully share his views on all subjects

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  100. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    Oh and Redbaiter….

    A few questions if you don’t mind.

    1. What do you have against equality, human rights and atheism?

    2. I am still waiting for you to point to the one victory you have had against the left in your ten year plus ‘war’ against them, YOU made the claim that you had “had many victories” so I thought that by now you might have remembered one of them that you could point out. Any chance you can let us know what that victory was?

    3. How are you getting on with the birth certificate?

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  101. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    Equality and athesim are the foundation stones of a Marxist society. If you don’t know that you haven’t been educated.

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  102. pq (728 comments) says:

    Do you think doctors should be allowed by law to end an incurable patient’s life, if the patient requests it?
    • Yes 60.5%
    • No 18.2%
    • Depends on situation 16.2%
    • Unsure 5.1%

    it happens all the time.
    the considerations are made with family
    the consequences of pain or other palliatives are considered

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  103. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    Redbaiter

    Does it not concern you that most people are laughing at you?

    Seriously old man, take a chill pill. Equality and atheism are the foundation stones of any decent society, one where even fucking idiots like you are tolerated.

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  104. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    “Human rights” too is a concept soaked in Marxist ideology for it assumes that rights can be given by government, and any rights not so given are illegitimate.

    For example, the communists who wish to disarm the citizenry in the US are in the thrall of their big government religion and consider that the second amendment should be annulled.

    Once the communists are the only ones with guns, then you lame uneducated ignorant of history indoctrinated fuckwits will understand the true meaning of the phrase “human rights”.

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  105. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    Now come on Redbaiter, given that the last half an hour has been pretty heavy can you give us all a good laugh and tell us how Sarah (I can see Russia from my house) Palin and the lunatic tea party are going to save the USA and the western world?

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  106. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    Bruv, does it concern you that when a fuckwit like you assumes to be speaking for “most people”, it makes you look like even more of a delusional fuckwit than you already do?

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  107. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    “Once the communists are the only ones with guns, then you lame uneducated ignorant of history indoctrinated fuckwits will understand the true meaning of the phrase “human rights”.

    Oh dear!

    Can somebody call the men in white coats.

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  108. Griff (8,194 comments) says:

    come on weedy answer the questio0n share with us your victory over the massed Marxist hoards

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  109. cha (4,081 comments) says:

    Not to forget that the deranged and deluded old man’s on a mission and when the word comes through he’s off to help patriots restore the US to liberty and constitutional government.

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  110. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    Redbaiter

    I will concede that there is a minute possibility that I might be delusional. However as bad as I might be I have never stated publicly that I have had “many victories against the left” and then been unable to name one of those victories.

    Come on now Redbaiter, put down the drill for a moment and let us all know what that victory was.

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  111. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    Come on Red…I am waiting…

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  112. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    “I will concede that there is a minute possibility that I might be delusional.”

    Well, that’s great, now we’re getting somewhere.

    Now the only hump you have to get over is understanding that nobody is ever under any obligation to jump to the tune of some cowardly contemptible second hand car salesman from Cambridge who has appointed himself Chief Interrogator for the left.

    If you’ve got an argument (you haven’t of course) then make it. Otherwise, STFU creep.

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  113. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    Gee Redbaiter, now you are getting a bit angry it seems. I had no idea that I can get under your skin so easily.

    Tell you what, let’s leave aside the nastiness (I know it must be hard for you given the problems that old age brings, I am sure that that prostrate of yours must be giving you hell) and come together (in a non gay way of course) in the true spirit of the right.

    What you fail to see is that there are hordes of us just waiting to get in behind you (again, this is not in a gay way) and take the battle to the millions of commies who infest New Zealand, all we need from you is a sign, a signal that you are the one true saviour of the people.

    Tell us oh leader what it is that you have done to defeat the left, stop denying us the thrill of sharing in your “many victories”, we need to be led by you Redbaiter and all you have to do is point to one of those victories and we will all be in your debt.

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  114. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    A bunch of yapping pomeranians.

    Yawn… zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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  115. Fletch (6,494 comments) says:

    Re: Communists and guns. A Russian writing in Pravda the other day had a message for the U.S – DON’T let the Govt take your guns. That is what happened in Russia – they State confiscated all the weapons, leaving the populace unable to defend itself.

    “This will probably come as a total shock to most of my Western readers, but at one point, Russia was one of the most heavily armed societies on earth,”

    “This was, of course, when we were free under the Tsar. Weapons, from swords and spears to pistols, rifles and shotguns were everywhere, common items. People carried them concealed, they carried them holstered. Fighting knives were a prominent part of many traditional attires and those little tubes criss crossing on the costumes of Cossacks and various Caucasian peoples? Well, those are bullet holders for rifles.”

    However, the communists weren’t stupid, he wrote, and when they took power, “One of the first things they did was to disarm the population. ”

    “From that point, mass repression, mass arrests, mass deportations, mass murder, mass starvation were all a safe game for the powers,”.

    http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/28-12-2012/123335-americans_guns-0/

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  116. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    Come on Redbaiter…making us wait is cruel. Just one, all we need is for you to tell us one of your “many victories” and we will be satisfied.

    Or….could it be that you are telling lies?

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  117. kowtow (8,774 comments) says:

    I reckon Red has numerous victories.

    He calls himself Redbaiter and does the most marvellous job. He only needs to touch his keyboard and the usual suspects here go apopletic.

    The ranting that the likes of bollox bruv,dawinci and nasskrap so rapidly descend to proves it. They literally take the bait……hahahaha

    And then there’s the others cha,eggshit ,RRM all out to prove their comradely credentials…….

    Red, I love it. Brilliant entertainment. It’s just a pity that the issues are so important and these wankers are prepared to sell the west down the river for the “freedom” of a bumjob or whatever it is that turns these girls on.

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  118. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    “From that point, mass repression, mass arrests, mass deportations, mass murder, mass starvation were all a safe game for the powers,”

    Yes, and for that to happen, a society has to have within it a large sector who are amoral, or free of virtue or even any concept of virtue, and therefore ready to do anything that they see as being beneficial to their cause. They are unrestrained by any moral principle.

    You can see so many of those people on our society today, so its no wonder some of us have fears concerning what the eventual outcome might be.

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  119. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    kowtow

    What are these victories that you speak of?, has Red told you and only you?

    Please share them with us, we are waiting with baited breath for the stories of the great man.

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  120. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    “Red, I love it. Brilliant entertainment.”

    Thanks Kowtow- and you’re perfectly correct- these commie morons are too stupid to realise that by their own fevered and vociferous responses, which always come, they disprove their own claims that I am ineffective.

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  121. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    Kris K has been reincarnated. :)

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  122. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    Bigot Bruv- there’s no “we”.

    Free yourself from your delusions. There is only you, and there is no cheering crowd of like mungbean supporters looking over your shoulder as you type.

    I know you badly need to reinforce your own tepid and limp psyche with that delusion, but that is all it is. A trick you play upon yourself.

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  123. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    Sadly we see more lies from old Redbaiter.

    The only “fevered and vociferous” response came from the silly old duffer himself. Anybody who cares to look back at this thread will see that as usual Redbaiter spewed forth his mindless rant in response to something that others have written.

    As hard as it is to accept for the old man it does seem that he is totally ineffective, he cannot point to one single victory in over ten years, he cannot lay claim to one small achievement.

    I guess that makes him a loser.

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  124. Fletch (6,494 comments) says:

    Here’s a flow chart showing the links between Marx, Communism and the Democratic Party.

    http://motorcitytimes.com/mct/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/karl-marx-chart.jpg

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  125. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    It must be time for you to start talking about yourself in the third person again Redbaiter.

    I do love it when you do that.

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  126. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    Secular Progressives will be defeated Bigot Bruv, as surely as the sun sets, for its clear that everything that is wrong with our society today is the work of blind fools like you.

    More and more people are coming to understand that truth everyday, and all we need to do is keep putting the idea out there for more people to suddenly awaken to it.

    And I know its is working for everyday I see you writing, I detect more and more trepidation and anxiety in your own messages.

    You know its coming, and its worrying you, so that is one result that is plain for all to see.

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  127. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    Excellent chart Fletch- just needs Barack Obama at the top of it.

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  128. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    “for its clear that everything that is wrong with our society today is the work of blind fools like you.”

    Bloody hell!…any more of that and somebody could accuse you of wanting to debate the issues Redbaiter.

    Care to enlighten us as to what you see wrong with our society today? …..and can we only be saved by Sarah?

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  129. Fletch (6,494 comments) says:

    Excellent chart Fletch- just needs Barack Obama at the top of it.

    RB, here it is. Hard to see though because it’s a screen cap from a video.
    You can see though that there are direct links from Communist and Socialist groups to Obama.

    http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7944/61201353815pm.jpg

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  130. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    “any more of that and somebody could accuse you of wanting to debate the issues Redbaiter.”

    and I’d be willing to do that Bigot, if only someone with a brain would show up here rather than the usual clutter of uneducated low IQ left wing trolls like yourself.

    Debating even the most basic political ideas with you and the rest of your yapping pack of Kiwiblog pomeranians is like talking the finer points of rocket science with a group of bearded and fishing rod equipped garden gnomes.

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  131. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    Fletch

    Who put that chart together…Glenn Beck?

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  132. cha (4,081 comments) says:

    The fix is in BB.

    http://www.thebaffler.com/past/the_long_con/print

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  133. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    “You can see though that there are direct links from Communist and Socialist groups to Obama.”

    Of course, and it looks like the electoral system has been so corrupted, along with the media and the education system, that there is no democratic solution to escaping the tyranny of the left.

    Of course this too could be just what the left have planned. Its why they have been replacing old school armed forces leaders with progressives for a few decades. Obama is counting on the regular army defeating the rebels and this defeat will enable him to do away with the constitution.

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  134. Fletch (6,494 comments) says:

    bb, no, it’s from a documentary called Agenda about those links and what is happening today in the U.S
    Full poster is here –

    http://agendadocumentary.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Agenda-Full-Chart-10×12.png

    And you can order a copy for $5 if you like ;)

    http://agendadocumentary.com/store/karl-marx-chart/

    Maybe I should get one for my wall. Be a good talking point.
    Hard to refute because it’s true.

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  135. Fletch (6,494 comments) says:

    As I posted the other day, the FULL documentary is FREE to view for a limited time here –

    http://vimeo.com/52009124

    Features NZ’s own Trevor Loudon among the many interviewees.

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  136. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    Redbaiter

    You are genuinely funny guy. I don’t think I have seen you debate any issue here for a couple of years, your idea of a debate is to shout the loudest and confuse that for rational debate.

    Of course there are the odd mindless fools who go along with you simply because they lack the intelligence to think for themselves and that tends to only embolden you but as a rule you just make a fool of yourself on a daily basis.

    I will stop now as it is becoming a bit like pulling wings off butterflies, I know you are an angry senior citizen so I should not really keep thrashing you or continue to keep pointing out that you are a liar and a nutter. I guess I have to make allowances for your more “senior” moments.

    Best you go and put your Jim jams on Red, matron will be up to give you your warm milk and tuck you in soon.

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  137. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    “Obama is counting on the regular army defeating the rebels and this defeat will enable him to do away with the constitution.”

    Moonbat alert!

    Seriously Red, are you related to Penny at all?

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  138. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    Gee Bigot, I guess one thing I can so obviously count as an achievement is being the subject of so many lines of putrid pseudo-analysis from low IQ progressive drongoes like you.

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  139. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    “Moonbat alert!”

    Let’s see what happens when your ideological buddies in the US try to disarm the citizenry Bigot.

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  140. Griff (8,194 comments) says:

    Does being the subject of so many lines of putrid pseudo-analysis from low IQ progressive drongoes match your almost not quite fifty likes on whale as your ultimate achievement weddy?

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  141. Redbaiter (9,609 comments) says:

    What’s that faint echo way in the distance?

    Why, its Grief, the self professed right winger and Al Gore worshipper who uncritically embraces the biggest scam the Marxists have ever come up with and is so enamoured of small government he reckons we should all be told by the UN when we can breath in and when we can breath out.

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  142. Griff (8,194 comments) says:

    almost fifty likes weddy

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  143. Liberal Minded Kiwi (1,571 comments) says:

    Since when did Redbitter decide who was a right winger or not? You just need to use the word gay or homosexual and he and his fiddler friendly friends will come here and have a good limp wristed cry about their fellow children of god.

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  144. ChardonnayGuy (1,215 comments) says:

    Hmm. Methinks wrist flexibility is becoming delinked from gaymaleness in any case. Gareth Thomas’ wrists have never struck me as flexible, for instance, nor have those of Ian Roberts. Or Martina Navratilova, for that matter :)

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