PPTA wrong

January 14th, 2013 at 9:50 am by David Farrar

Amelia Wade in the Herald reports:

A teachers’ union is criticising the Government for holding the consultation period for during New Zealanders’ holidays.

The New Zealand Post Primary Teachers’ Association () yesterday launched a campaign to raise awareness about the January 24 deadline for submissions on the Education Amendment Bill 2012.

A full-page advertisement in the Herald on Sunday and in today’s Herald said the Government had “its own agenda – the dismantling of New Zealand’s public education system by introducing charter schools”.

It also implied the Government had purposefully chosen a closing date for submissions on the bill when most people were still on holiday.

First of all the Government doesn’t decide when submissions are due, the select committee does. Now if the Government has a majority on a select committee, of course they can effectively set the date.  But they do not have a majority on Education & Science. The breakdown is National 5, Labour 3, Greens 1, NZ First 1. This means that at least one opposition MP (or all of them) agreed to the dates.

Secondly most bills have around a six week period for submissions to be made. This bill has in fact had a three month submission window which is one of the longest I know of for a bill. Even taking into account the Xmas slowdown, it is a lengthy period of time. The bill was referred to select committee on Thu 18 October and submissions opened on Wed 24 October.

Also the consultation does not close on 24 January. That is merely the deadline for written submissions, and then you have the oral submissions. There is a full six month window for the select committee consultation and deliberations.

It is a pity the Herald has just repeated the spin from the PPTA and not bothered to check the facts such as the three month submission period and that the Government doesn’t have a majority on the select committee that set the date. These are both highly relevant facts to the story, and are on the parliamentary website.

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38 Responses to “PPTA wrong”

  1. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    It is a pity the Herald has just repeated the spin…. …and not bothered to check the facts…

    But why change the habits of a lifetime?

    Just another fail by the NZ Hoorald.

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  2. rouppe (971 comments) says:

    And it is school holidays for students. I don’t see why it should be seen as holidays for teachers. They should have 4 weeks annual leave like everyone else (except government workers, many of whom get 5). The period of 7 weeks or so over December/January when there is no teaching happening is when teachers should be doing their professional improvement, doing training (maybe on NovoPay), having planning meetings where the decisions about helping particular students who struggled the previous year might be made.

    But no, it’s beach time for teachers…

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  3. lofty (1,313 comments) says:

    The Herald would not care about the relevancy or accuracy of the advert.

    It is about revenue I suppose, what is the going rate for a full page ad?

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  4. Archer (208 comments) says:

    Amelia Wade – another hack journalist whose articles are to be avoided.

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  5. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    It’s only in some sort fantasy-land that you can consider Jan 24th to be “during New Zealanders’ holidays”

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  6. berend (1,709 comments) says:

    Although I agree with all DPFs points, the government is extremely bad in communicating with effected parties about legislation that could effect them. Why can’t we register to receive alerts?

    [DPF: I agree communications can be improved. Would point out that you can register on Parl website to receive notices of bills and submissions for areas or select cmtes. I find it a useful service]

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  7. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    you mean teachers wont be able to write their submissions during school time? no fair!

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  8. CJPhoto (221 comments) says:

    It’s only in some sort fantasy-land that you can consider Jan 24th to be “during New Zealanders’ holidays”

    Agree completely. Not sure they are buying much sympathy with that line. The article still doesn’t state when the report was release – as diligent teachers, surely they would have started their submission as soon as the ‘homework’ was set.

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  9. Positan (390 comments) says:

    It truly amazes me that any credibility at all is yet accorded the PPTA. The pros and cons of a charter schools concept have been widely and thoroughly publicised and the benefits are self-evident to most discerning souls – especially when compared to what’s been allowed to become “the existing system.”

    Teachers are employed by government, but to listen to their ever-more-strident demands and insistences, you’d think that the NCEI and PPTA employed the government – a state of affairs that’s now completely intolerable.

    Whatever the outcome of charter schools, the present situation MUST GO. It’s way past time for any belief that even a complete overhaul would in any way even begin to address the situation. If that means a national strike by teachers – so be it – bring it on!

    The same approach was necessary back in 1951 to confront the watersiders – the resulting benefits enjoyed within a comparatively short space of time thereafter.

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  10. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    Over the holidays Ive been reading the Taranaki Daily and The Herald each day.
    (I normally only get the Waikato Times each day – so both were new to me – I was in Taranaki for 3 weeks)

    What a load of crap the NZH is. Bugger all news really – mostly sport (racing and soccer…). Often Id see items in the Herald that were in the Tarakani Daily a day or two previous.
    And the herald is obviously just cutting and pasting items from all over the place – without any checking.

    No wonder their owners reduced their value by some hundreds of millions just before years end. It just crap.

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  11. Nick K (1,244 comments) says:

    It’s only in some sort fantasy-land that you can consider Jan 24th to be “during New Zealanders’ holidays”

    Oh, I’m not so sure. If the PPTA and the the socialist had their way, we’d have about 24 weeks of holidays and then stats and then occasionally we’d lean on our desks and do some work.

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  12. burt (8,271 comments) says:

    PPTA Wrong – that’s all that needs to be said but….

    Of course they are wrong – they think all teachers are the same and care only for their membership numbers ….

    If the PPTA were of any value at all then teachers would not be so lowly paid… would be accountable on some level and wouldn’t all want to be treated the same in the best interest of easy administration for the government.

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  13. JC (956 comments) says:

    Nevermind the Herald.. if teachers are this loose with their facts then they make the case for Charter schools more urgent.

    JC

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  14. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    A full-page advertisement in the Herald on Sunday and in today’s Herald said the Government had “its own agenda – the dismantling of New Zealand’s public education system by introducing charter schools”.

    And they say that like it’s somehow a bad thing…

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  15. Mark (1,488 comments) says:

    Charter schools is the best advertisement yet for MMP. national are not particularly interested in having charter schools but conceded it to ACT for support on confidence and supply. ACT is unlikely to be in parliament after the next election so the whole exercise is a charade of sorts. I don’t have any particular beef if parents want to send their kids to charter schools and there may well be the odd one that works well. But for a portfolio that has been a festering sore for National since the last election it simply seems to be a distraction and yet another thing for Parata to try to cope with. It may well be a bridge too far for the struggling minister especially if there are early problems that emerge.

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  16. bc (1,367 comments) says:

    A pretty fair post by DPF which was actually more critical of the NZ Herald than the PPTA (who only put out a press release). But it sure brought out the teacher bashers in here.

    Maybe they are all bitter and twisted that they are back at work while those socialist teachers are having “beach time” (according to roupee @ 10.08am).
    Whatever the reason the nasty flows strong today!

    Now here’s a thought. Instead of roupee and all the others being jealous about teachers and their long holidays, they could become teachers themselves. Then they could get all the holidays too!
    Now I’m not a gambling man, but I would wager that roupee and all the other teacher bashers wouldn’t last a week at the job. And if they lasted a week, they certainly wouldn’t be able to cope long enough to get to enjoy the next round of holidays.

    Much easier to be nasty and spiteful instead.

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  17. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    “Much easier to be nasty and spiteful instead.” – seems to be the default for just about every teacher quoted in the media bc. Marlene Campbell, Peter Simpson. I can find more if you like, but you can see where I’m coming from.

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  18. bc (1,367 comments) says:

    Positan @ 11.12am

    The benefits of charter schools are hardly “self-evident”. Even John Hattie (who Key and Parata love to quote – well they quote the bits of him that they agree with) puts any potential benefits of charter schools well down on a list of other factors which improve student outcomes.

    Ye gods, even the Treasury (you couldn’t get much more right wing then them!!) put out a release just before christmas with concerns about the effectiveness of charter schools and in fact are worried about negative outcomes.

    Oh and what is the NCEI??

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  19. bc (1,367 comments) says:

    Nick K @ 11.41pm
    I don’t recall any release from the PPTA wanting 24 weeks holiday (and stats no less!). Maybe you could provide a link or quote?

    RightNow @1.49pm
    I’m not sure I do get where you are coming from. I was commenting about some of the idiotic and just plain nasty comments here. But if what you say is true, I’m not surprised people in the education field in the media act they way if they have to respond to the type of comments I have read today!

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  20. Tauhei Notts (1,714 comments) says:

    JC at 11.59.
    Spot on!

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  21. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    bc “But if what you say is true, I’m not surprised people in the education field in the media act they way if they have to respond to the type of comments I have read today!”

    They weren’t responding to blog comments though. When I comment negatively about people in the education field I’m responding to them (those quoted in the media) and to my real world experiences.

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  22. bc (1,367 comments) says:

    Yeah, but they have to deal with Parata, which would put anybody in a foul mood.

    Speaking of which – continued Novopay stuff-ups, treasury warnings about negative impacts of charter schools and a ticking off about privacy breaches. So where the Heck is Hekia?

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  23. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Speaking of which – continued Novopay stuff-ups, treasury warnings about negative impacts of charter schools and a ticking off about privacy breaches. So where the Heck is Hekia?

    Having a holiday while there’s no real issues going on.

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  24. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Now I’m not a gambling man, but I would wager that roupee and all the other teacher bashers wouldn’t last a week at the job. And if they lasted a week, they certainly wouldn’t be able to cope long enough to get to enjoy the next round of holidays.

    Good idea – and charter schools allow people to get into teaching much more quickly.

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  25. HB (321 comments) says:

    rouppe (558) Says:

    “And it is school holidays for students. I don’t see why it should be seen as holidays for teachers. They should have 4 weeks annual leave like everyone else (except government workers, many of whom get 5). The period of 7 weeks or so over December/January when there is no teaching happening is when teachers should be doing their professional improvement, doing training (maybe on NovoPay), having planning meetings where the decisions about helping particular students who struggled the previous year might be made.

    But no, it’s beach time for teachers…”

    ACTUALLY Rouppe, I was at school for many days after the students had finished. I am going in tomorrow. Also you need to take into account that our salary takes into account our longer holidays.
    Why the hell should I train for Novopay? I am a teacher – not the Finance Manager! Teachers don’t have anything to do with it apart from (hopefully) receiving a payslip and (hopefully) receiving their pay.
    Also, we DO got back before the students for professional development, preparation of courses, senior course confirmation, enrolment interviews etc, etc.
    You must realise in this day and age we are all on remote desktop and can work from anywhere.

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  26. Tookinator (221 comments) says:

    “…..when most people were still on holiday.”

    Not any worker I know, apart from teachers…..

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  27. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    There are a few comments here about teachers’ holidays, often to the effect that no one else expects to be on holiday at this time of the year. What about Cabinet ministers?

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  28. itstricky (1,831 comments) says:

    The way I read this was the PPTA drawing attention to the submission dates. End of story. Yeah, sure, there is a phrase that is not later refuted in The Herald article, i.e. this:

    It also implied the Government had purposefully chosen a closing date for submissions on the bill when most people were still on holiday.

    But notice the use of the word implied

    I don’t really think it’s an important fact in the article.

    I think you’d be more likely to have a go at the PPTA than The Herald for that, and I’m sure that they know how it really works, they’re just doing what any other politicially based group would do… drawing attention to something by stretching the truth as far as it will go.

    PS> DPF> where’s the URL link on the Government site? Last time we had one of your “they’re wrong” posts, it turned out they were, in fact, right.

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  29. bc (1,367 comments) says:

    Tookinator @ 5.49pm “Not any worker I know, apart from teachers…”
    … and the politicians.

    Interesting also that scrubone seems quite happy for Hekia to be on an extended holiday (while the Novopay fiasco goes on and on and on), but no doubt resents teachers having a holiday.
    Still as he pointed out, he and rouppe can go and teach at a charter school soon!

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  30. bc (1,367 comments) says:

    itstrickly @ 8:33pm

    Good point – I think the word implied is an interesting one. Looks like the PPTA have played the media for some free publicity.
    As well as getting a post on kiwiblog!

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  31. burt (8,271 comments) says:

    HB

    Is there a valid reason why teachers need paid union meetings during normal school term class time ?

    I’ve never been to a Lawyer and sat in the waiting room (with the billing clock running) while he/she attends a professional association meeting. Never paid a doctor for the time he/she attends a professional association meeting….

    Is it because the teachers unions think their meeting time is more important than teaching ?

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  32. burt (8,271 comments) says:

    HB

    Don’t get me wrong … if you need to be in the union then fine – just do it on your own time !

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  33. Tharg (15 comments) says:

    Well, it’s actually a bit more complicated than DPF makes out… which is surprising considering his insider connections to the machinations of parliament. Reliable sources reveal that months ago Isaac was showing off that submissions to the Select Committee were going to close before Xmas, in line with the plan all along to have “Limited consultation at the policy development stage” (as the MoE documents reveal). What appears to have happened in Select Committee is that at least one National MP agreed to extend the date further out than that, to the current 24 Jan deadline, at the request of the opposition members.

    Despite this, and despite DPF being correct that the time for making submissions is now longer than customary, PPTA is still perfectly within its rights to call for a longer process – it’s a crucial piece of legislation which emerged from a coalition deal which no-one with any educational credibility had any input into. The timeline to get charter schools up and running is already compressed , shown by the working group’s call for expressions of interest before the legislation has even come back into the house.

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  34. itstricky (1,831 comments) says:

    bc

    Looks like the PPTA have played the media for some…

    Certainly seems that simple to me. The Herald have not “repeated the spin” and that’s just one sentence out of a 50 sentence article – hardly an important thing in the whole piece.

    As well as getting a post on kiwiblog!

    Yeah, well, that’s not a difficult thing to attain give the blogger’s leanings and the membership – anything with the words “Teachers” or “Unions” are guaranteed to get a rise out of his audience – bet you he was beside himself with joy when he found a “Teachers” AND “Unions” piece – especially when it’s easy to imply wrong doing and it’s during school holidays – he could hear the wild rants and page clicks coming from lands far far away…

    He probably “forgot” some of the pertinent information as Tharg has suggested… …Oh well, it all comes out in the wash

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  35. MikeS (22 comments) says:

    What a rubbish post. You say the herald is just repeating the spin from the PPTA, etc.

    The extract of the Herald article you’ve put in your post does nothing of the sort.

    “A teachers’ union is criticising the Government for holding the consultation period for charter schools during New Zealanders’ holidays.”

    – Seems pretty straightforward to me. The sentence simply states that the union is criticising the government and why they are doing it. No spin there.

    “The New Zealand Post Primary Teachers’ Association (PPTA) yesterday launched a campaign to raise awareness about the January 24 deadline for submissions on the Education Amendment Bill 2012.”

    – Again, simply stating that the PPTA has launched a campaign, blah,blah,blah. Which i’m assuming they have so is just reporting a fact.

    “A full-page advertisement in the Herald on Sunday and in today’s Herald said the Government had “its own agenda – the dismantling of New Zealand’s public education system by introducing charter schools”.”

    – Did the advertisement say the government had it’s own agenda? and what that agenda was? If so, then again it is a simple reporting of a fact.

    “It also implied the Government had purposefully chosen a closing date for submissions on the bill when most people were still on holiday.”

    – Did it imply that? If it did then again it’s just reporting what the advert implied.

    Talk about paranoia.

    P.s – the Herald is a crap paper, I’ll give you that.

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  36. HB (321 comments) says:

    Hi Burt,
    I have no idea how the meetings have come to be held during school hours.

    Are you sure doctors, nurses, police (whose salary is also paid by tax payers) doesn’t also attend union meetings during work hours?

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  37. MikeS (22 comments) says:

    All union meetings are held during work hours. The law allows for it and most employers don’t have a problem with it.

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  38. itstricky (1,831 comments) says:

    MikeS

    What a rubbish post. You say the herald is just repeating the spin from the PPTA, etc. The extract of the Herald article you’ve put in your post does nothing of the sort.

    Absolutely agree

    Talk about paranoia.

    More likely to just be “good for the (blogging) business” just a very transparent attempt to get some good ranters worked up. But I guess I’m cynical.

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