Wonder if other churches will be allowed to become Labour affiliates?
January 24th, 2013 at 3:00 pm by David FarrarThe Herald reports:
Mr Shearer pledged last year to meet regularly with the Ratana movement.
Since then, he has hosted the church elders at Parliament and met them several times.
“So I am going up for the church service on Friday – for me that is the most significant day and it’s the day when people commemorate it.”
He said this week that Labour were also now in discussions with Ratana about whether it would become an affiliate of the party.
That would give it some influence over candidate selections and voting power in future leadership elections.
I think it is abhorrent that external organisations have voting rights in political parties. It makes them a hostage to special interests. Think if Business NZ was allowed to vote on National Party policy, candidates and the leader? It would be called organised corruption. Think if the Destiny Church was allowed to become an affiliate of the Conservative Party and vote on their policies? Think if Greenpeace got 20% of the votes for the Green Party leadership? Why is such an anti-democratic thing as organisational affiliates tolerated in Labour? It isn’t far removed from US style special interests buying politicians.
All voting in political parties should be by individuals who have chosen to join the party in their capacity as an elector.
And encouraging a church to become an affiliate member of a so called secular political party. My God. Anything for votes or money.
January 24th, 2013 at 3:06 pm
I guess when you are far behind and gaining little traction, you have to promise just about everything to everyone to make some friends.
Never in the field of electioneering was so much promised by so few to so many
[Apologies to the memory of Winston Churchill.]
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 3:07 pm
Next you’ll have a special interest group like Sensible Sentencing directly selecting an MP for a political party, imagine how horrible that would be.
[DPF: It would be. It hasn't happened. Big difference between influence and direct representation. I have no problems with unions having an influence on Labour. I have a huge problem with them having bulk voting rights at conferences and bussing members into selection meetings]
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 3:09 pm
Key and the Nats toady to this lot too. Just a question of degree in how far up Ratana’s arse they’re prepared to go.But they’re both up there.
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 3:11 pm
As per kowtow, the whole current Ratana thing seems to me like a bizarre pilgrimage of political opportunists trying to score some start of year coverage.
But Shearer recruiting Ratana as affiliates is remarkable.
Imagine the uproar if say the Conservative Party got into bed with Destiny or Exclusive Brethren.
But signing up a church as an affiliate with the special voting rights that provides is bizarre.
I wionder if Shearer genuinely thinks that connecting with Ratana is a good thing for Labour, or if he will affiliate any group that he thinks will shore up his leadership.
I wonder what the other affiliates (unions) think of their numbers being diluted like this.
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 3:15 pm
the Catholic Church has been running the Nats for as long as they have existed. Excused from the Hail Mary’s if they do what the church wants.
So why would a Nat complain?
[DPF: You are so bizarre. Yes the Catholic Church is responsible for the atheist PM who has Jewish descent. A brilliant masterplan. Let us know how your world is when the drugs wear off]
January 24th, 2013 at 3:34 pm
Wasn’t Maori discontent with Labour Party policies & actions the whole reason the Maori Party got started in the first place?
I would have thought that based on that recent history alone the Ratana Mvt would value their independence from the Labour Party… (But then, I know nothing about them!)
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 3:35 pm
Viking’s overdosed on DaVinci code.
Believes in fiction.
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 3:53 pm
That’s just ridiculous.
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 3:54 pm
Kowtow,
If he has, do you think he will freak out if I say I go to Opus Dei meetings?
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 3:57 pm
For some self-flagellation, Lucia?
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 4:02 pm
Wow. Has Viking been smoking some of Griff’s weed?
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 4:10 pm
An alliance with the Ratana church would only be going back to the situation that existed for decades.
Vote:The first Ratana church MP was Tirakatene in 1932. They won a second seat in 1935 and then formed an alliance with the Labour party in 1936. Basically the church got the right to name the Labour candidates in the (then) four Maori seats.
They won all four from 1943 onward. The Labour Maori MPs were all in the Ratana church until 1963 (Eastern), 1980 (Northern) and 1996 for the Western and Southern seats. The Ratana church therefore dominated the Maori part of the Labour party for about at least 50 years.
What is new?
January 24th, 2013 at 4:13 pm
Lucia
He probably hates albinos.
Who needs flagellation when reading eggshit will do?
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 4:20 pm
Waiting for the media outrage against Shearer, similar to Brasch and Exclusive Brethren.
Still waiting.
January 24th, 2013 at 4:24 pm
What I want to know is why the fuck, in a free society, does DPF have any issue with them being a Labour affiliate?
Labour can affiliate whoever the fuck they want, and if voters want to punish them for it, that is their liberty to do so.
Classical liberal blog my ass.
[DPF: Stop trolling or I will kick you out again. Have I ever said they should be banned from having affiliates? I've said I think it is a bad thing to let organisations have votes within a political party. So stop fucking lying about me]
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 4:39 pm
Maybe I am missing something – but I really don’t see the big deal here. I also don’t see the big deal about corporate donations in American elections. Mitt Romney got the hell mocked out of him for saying that “corporations are people” but … they are.
Antonin Scalia, the great US Supreme Court Justice pointed out that: “Most corporations are indistinguishable from the individual who owns them, the local hairdresser, the new auto dealer — dealer who has just lost his dealership and — and who wants to oppose whatever Congressman he thinks was responsible for this happening or whatever Congressman won’t try to patch it up by — by getting the auto company to undo it. There is no distinction between the individual interest and the corporate interest … And that is true for the vast majority of corporations.”
Corporations (and other organisations) are just agglomerations of people united by contract or agreement. We recognise freedom of association for good reason – we also recognise political freedom. I can’t get exercised over two organisations associating with each other for a political purpose.
Nobody is forced to join the Ratana Church or the Labour Party or vote for a Labour Party affiliated with the Ratana Church. In the same way nobody is forced to give money to Business NZ or vote for any party it may (theoretically) associate with or endorse.
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 4:41 pm
Has anyone asked the Ratana Church hierarchy what their position is with regard to same-sex marriage? Just wondering…
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 4:53 pm
Doesn’t matter what Ratana thinks. The once conservative National party support for it will ensure it goes through.
Nikki Kaye outdid herself when speaking second on the Bill.
Might as well be Labour.Where’s the difference?
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 5:04 pm
Given that Ratana is now essentially a Labour poodle it is high time John Key and National had as little to do with them as possible.
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 5:06 pm
Kowtow true enough -
Imagine a future civilisation 1,500 years hence, considering us as we now consider the Romans.
Maybe they will read Nikki Kaye’s speech and conclude: “In the midst of the great economic, social and demographic crises, why were the rulers of the Western world so fixated on congratulating themselves for their hubris? Why did they expend so much energy making absurd laws declaring that men can marry each other! Surely this was not the cause of their downfall – but it was undoubtedly sympotamatic of it”.
There’s no way to know that will happen – but looking back at how we have viewed and judged past civilisations it is plausible – all the more to the stupidity of the DPF “I support gay marriage because I want to be seen on the right side of history” argument.
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 5:08 pm
Is Shearer going to meet with the NZ branch of the Scientology Church? How about Destiny?
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 5:12 pm
Mumblefuck trying to buy Maori votes.
How low can you go!!!!!!
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 5:17 pm
Has any one read the history of the Ratana church? The founder, Wirimu Ratana, seems to have been possessed, thinking the Holy Spirit was talking to him and through him. Here’s one of the bizzare things this “holy spirit” said and did when questioned:
link
The Holy Spirit doesn’t say “girly” and would never throw the Bible across the room and would never possess someone. Sounds demonic to me.
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 5:32 pm
RF
Are you kidding about “buying Maori votes”?
Which minor party with race based seats is supporting Key? And when you said mumblefuck I thought you were talking about the less than eloquent Key!
and previuos Nat gummints are very proud of their track record in throwing good money at the racist grievance industry !
mumblefuck indeed.
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 6:08 pm
Given that Ratana has no power or relevance in 2012, when are politicians going to point out that the emperor has no clothes and ignore them?
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 6:16 pm
I agree.
Another abhorrent thing is the fact that NZ voters have to put with a completely incompetent Cabinet Minister for the next three or so years specifically and purely so that Key could walk onto the marae with her today and use her to buy the Maori vote.
Imagine the conversation with his advisers:
Key: But she’s fucking useless.
Gerry: Yes we all know that but since you ditched Te Heu Heu we don’t have any other token Maori’s in Cabinet and we need at least one so we can at least pretend we give a shit.
Key: But what about the taxpayer who depends on us to promote competent Ministers on merit, like we do with everyone else in the caucus regardless of race?
Murray: Look, imagine what it’s going to look like if you tell the truth and dump her like she deserves. Do you seriously want those Ratana protest signs as the lead items on the six o’clock news?
Key: But everyone will know because it’s so obvious. I mean just look at her. And look at the timing.
Gerry and Murray: No they won’t. The idiots we call voters actually believe what the anchors on the six o’clock tell them and if the anchors don’t mention it the people will never think it through for themselves. And the anchors won’t do it because they’re just as stupid as the average voter.
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 6:20 pm
Kowtow.. When you finish touching your forelock to the great Mumblefuck I suggest you read your broadsheet .. The standard. That is the name they have given to their alternative leader in waiting. At least Key is up front and not tossing mango skins to the natives.
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 6:39 pm
Viking2 (8,584) Says:
January 24th, 2013 at 3:15 pm
the Catholic Church has been running the Nats for as long as they have existed. Excused from the Hail Mary’s if they do what the church wants.
So why would a Nat complain?
[DPF: You are so bizarre. Yes the Catholic Church is responsible for the atheist PM who has Jewish descent. A brilliant masterplan. Let us know how your world is when the drugs wear off]
————————–
Well just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it not true. Had you been around more than a few years ago and been privy to many conversations between people up in the church you might just have the knowledge. But you weren’t and you haven’t. These influences were put in place before you came out of nappies.
You should just look and see who the backbone of the party are and have been. Bolger, Catholic
You might also like to look to the religious faith of some at the top other than Key. Keys boss is English ( Catholic) even if you don’t think so.
And just in case you think its clever to accuse people of being on drugs that is one thing that I have never been party too but I respect that other people might. And that’s the difference. I’m happy for other people to run their own lives without my interference in a nanny state manner. The Nats. aren’t as emphasised by your today about Simple Simon’s banning of magnetic balls. What will he ban next, quad bikes are on the agenda tonight, http://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/38038-girl-latest-victim-of-quad-bikes.html. Will he ban cars because they hurt stupid people. He’s in now Minister in charge of Transport.
FFS
Open your eyes and look about you.
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 6:40 pm
Oh no, he’s throwing millions of dollars to the Stone Agers.
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 6:45 pm
Manolo (8,842) Says:
January 24th, 2013 at 4:02 pm
the Catholic Church has been running the Nats for as long as they have existed…
Wow. Has Viking been smoking some of Griff’s weed?
Vote:———————————-
Now Manolo I would expect better from you. Perhaps its your mind that is fogged up! Either thator you have swallowed shit and joined the dark side.
January 24th, 2013 at 6:51 pm
The reason both Liarbore and the Nats are pitching so hard is because the Maori Party are tanking.
Which is a shame.
Because while everyone likes attention, no-one sensible likes it when its disingenuous.
National could have positioned itself brilliantly in anticipation of today, IF it had bothered to have been publicly cognisant from time to time of the needs and desires of the Ratana movement periodically over its term of office since first elected. Which would have cost nothing. But no. Instead it’s acted precisely like Liarbore did when Hulun was in power, paying mere lip service to them once a year. Which means nothing. Because the recipients of such treatment see straight through it and read it for the disingenous sychopancy that it in fact is.
Demonstrating, if anyone needed a further demonstration, that in fact, we, the country, are in fact extremely poorly served by both sides of politics. It’s be good if once, just once, even a single one of them admitted that clear and present fact. But let’s not hold our collective breath. We’ll be waiting a long long time.
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 7:55 pm
I can see it all now……. Out on DVD at a store near you.
Shearer sings the reds accompanied by the Ratana Brass Band!
Out of time,ideas and out of tune!!
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 8:10 pm
This is about one electorate and a retiring MP.
The only story is the comparison to the rort of the two one seat electorate parties in bed with National.
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 8:15 pm
The biggest rort of all of course SPC is the bunch of chancers in the Greenie and Winston First parties that are unable to win an electorate seat because they are all fruit loops but would seem to be on course to rule the country once the sad wee baldy man from Labour sells his arse to them come next election.
Now THAT is a fuckin rort!!
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 8:20 pm
Two parties winning nearly 20% of the country have more credibility as coalition partners in government than ACT, United and the MP – who won about 5% between the three of them.
PS it must be time to shear the sheep, your bald pussy comment … TMI.
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 8:25 pm
They would have much more credibility if they could put up a candidate that could take the voters with them and win even one electorate seat SPC instead of appealing to the 20pc of the population that are loopy/confused/stoned/stupid!
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 8:39 pm
I don’t suppose we’ll ever hear anyone from the Left describing Ratana Church as a “weird sect” or “chinless scarf-wearers”
Vote:January 24th, 2013 at 10:14 pm
Lucia Maria posted at 5.17 this uttering by the Ratana Church’s founder, Wirimu Ratana:
Wake up, all you lawyers on the gravy train! Throw the Good Book at the world money trees.
The Waitangi Commission can give Ratana’s heirs billions of uncollected royalties on the Bible from round the world. The treaty ought to override the end of copyright, which would under normal NZ law have expired in September 1989, 50 years after the death of The Author. Those back, uncollected royalties must still be worth billions.
Vote:January 25th, 2013 at 9:47 am
Sorry, David, but you’ve got things the wrong way around. Destiny Church has had two microparties of its own- Destiny New Zealand and the Family Party, remember? Both failed. Meanwhile, one wonders just how many members of the CCCP are actually fundies although pretending not to be. Not very well, I might add, explaining its languishing in the polls.
Vote:January 25th, 2013 at 1:09 pm
Do the so called Ratana Church voting members like KFC too.
Vote:January 25th, 2013 at 6:26 pm
Actually before this story hot the news, Im a little disturbed by how politicians from virtually all the parties make a pilgrimage to a religious event. I prefer to see distance between politics and religion. Imagine if such politicising occurred in the run up to Easter, or Christmas?
Vote: