Beyond belief
February 6th, 2013 at 11:00 am by David FarrarStuff reports:
A paedophile caught in a nationwide operation offered to pay a man $500 to experience ”sexual gratification” with a young boy, according to a police court summary.
The paedophile, Aaron Ellmers, 41, appeared in Hastings District Court this morning and pleaded guilty to a raft of child sex offences that the Crown has described amongst the country’s worst.
One of the offences involved Ellmers travelling to Christchurch where a man had offered an 18-month-old boy to him for $500.
The father was arrested and is facing charges related to the incident. He has name suppression.
I almost can’t believe that a father could sell sexual favours with his infant son. That is a degree of inhumanity that I just can not fathom.
I hope the father gets a jail sentence as long as the paedophile.
Ellmers had served a prison sentence in Australia before being deported to New Zealand.
He lived in Australia between 1999 and 2008. In 2004 he sexually abused an 8-year-old boy, whom he had groomed after befriending his parents.
He served five years in prison and was deported back to New Zealand in 2008.
In court this morning Crown lawyer Steve Manning said it was among the worst offending of its kind. He asked for the matter to be moved to the High Court as an application for preventative detention would be made.
Good. Sounds like a no brainer.
I was debating with my flatmate this morning which of the two is more evil and should be tortured for longer before being executed. We agreed the father is slightly more evil.
Related posts:
- The Press on three strikes law
- Three Strikes Debate
- Criminal Justice Changes
- Plea bargains worth considering
February 6th, 2013 at 11:08 am
Pimping your infant son to a paedophile must rank as one of the worst forms of child abuse. I assume the court will deal with it appropriately. I wonder what charge gets laid. Perhaps a similar charge as the paedophile being a party to the offence. And then pd for the father as well.
February 6th, 2013 at 11:15 am
Disgusting!
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 11:28 am
umm the father of the kid is most probably a pedo too.
this is the sort of unreal shit you see on something like criminal minds.
the dude will get PD. a bullet to the back of the head may be more humane though.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 11:46 am
Why the surprise? This sort of thing is well known. I recall about twenty years ago , the WGTN police warning parents re the 200 known paedophiles in the area. They said the worst places for them was shopping malls and swimming pools..but obviously friendly men befriending one’s family is a major part of it..An awful aspect of all this is how it undermines genuine friendship.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 11:49 am
The beast deserves a bullet. Anything else is too gentle.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 11:50 am
Well DPF, at the risk of getting banned….wait for paedophilia to become “normalized”… this is what society sets itself up for once you start tinkering with the definitions of basic societal structures such as marriage. Ridiculous extremism you will say? Until the 1970′s homosexuality was considered both a “perversion” and a mental illness….the sufferers of which were regarded and treated no differently from paedos. In fact consider changing language usage; “homos” is now unaccpetable, while “paedos” is fine – and not just because the spelling is more difficult.
We as a society made the decision to “normalise” homosexuality; an orientation which affects perhaps 5% …how can you logically argue that that does not at least open the way to paedophilia being similarly “normalized”? Granted, one involves two consenting adults – at least legal homosexual activity does – and the other involves abuse of a power imbalance….but do you really think that will stop the strident advocates from AMBLA?
I find it very amusing that the liberals and lefties always warn solemnly of the “slippery slope” when it comes to harsher treatment of criminals…but the slippery slope doesn’t seem to even be a possibility when it comes to (small “l”) liberal causes.
But for completeness, I agree with those who say that if capital punishment should be applied, it should be to “fathers” like this prick.
February 6th, 2013 at 12:05 pm
I truly hope that both this “prick” and the so called Father get jail time and are dealt to (sexually) by the thuggish inmates.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 12:07 pm
@DG. That won’t happen. The “slippery slope” argument is bullshit regardless of who uses it.
That’s the problem. Why such a short sentence for abusing an 8 year old? What are our judges and politicians thinking when they look at sentencing a see “molesting a child: five years” and think that is appropriate? (I realise it was in Australia, but we have similar sentences.)
If this guy was in jail for 20 years, we’d have saved all the kids this guy has hurt since 2008.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 12:18 pm
Isn’t it funny that David Garrett, once a high profile member of the libertarian ACT party, has difficulty distinguishing between the concept of individual freedom of consenting adults and the rape of children?
February 6th, 2013 at 12:18 pm
I don’t know if this five years is correct..I read somewhere else that he had spent 18 months in jail.
Vote:I agree with DG..along side the normalization of paedophilia , is the lowering of the age of sexual consent..I think in Holland it is 12 or 13..In some islamic countries it is 9. The same people who are pushing this are also pushing for the abolition of the word paedophilia. The term ”minor attracted adults ” is being increasingly used even here in NZ.
February 6th, 2013 at 12:19 pm
DG – I think the distinction between a victimless act between two consenting adults and the rape of a young child is quite an important one to be honest.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 12:20 pm
How the hell are we to protect our children and grand children?
You’re not going to like this but ads should be made to steer possible future paedo’s to help lines. It’s a sickness, a mental condition that needs attention like that of shizophrenia.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 12:30 pm
David Garrett defender of children’s rights, but only the live ones.
February 6th, 2013 at 12:39 pm
black – youre the most boring troll i see online. sad.
February 6th, 2013 at 12:41 pm
Criterion for Preventative Detention is a past pattern of sexual related offending (a sort of predecessor to the three strikes rule). So while the guy who offered the $500 is very likely to get PD, the father of the potential victim probably will not despite being more ‘evil’.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 12:42 pm
Isn’t it funny that Rodney Hide and other libertarians supported Jim Peron, libertarian bookshop owner and supporter of NAMBLA in the States when he was found by New Zealand authorities to an undesirable?
I find it amazing that the same people who like to point out a disproportionate amount of crime and child abuse among Maori which is true but cry homophobic when it is pointed out that there is a very disproportionate amount of underage sex in the homosexual community.
There has never been a group of heterosexuals who have formed a political lobby group like NAMBLA which lobbies for lower the age of consent.
I remember when I was in my teens in Canada that young guys used to joke a jail bait being an underage girl. However, here or in Canada mature adult males do not think it some sort joke if an adult man has sex with a girl under 16. The homosexual community has a word for an underage boy that is “chicken”. He abuse is referred to as a “chicken hawk” and not in a derogatory manner.
http://www.homosexinfo.org/Sexuality/Slang
I have as much basis for my belief that homosexual marriage will increase abuse as that not redefining marriage will result in more young confused boys committing suicide.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 12:44 pm
” The term ”minor attracted adults ” is being increasingly used even here in NZ.”
Who have you heard use such a term Joana? Why not name him or her?
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 12:46 pm
I’ve never heard that term until you said it just then, joana.
The Islamic countries have a major problem, but that is because they have a religion that enables them to do cruel things to each other. In the non-fucked-up world, there was actually probably much more child sexual abuse in the past, back when homosexuality was still illegal.
I’m not sure why some people have such a difficult time with the difference between consenting adults, and children. Maybe you have the same problem that the pedos do?
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 12:49 pm
@David Garrett
Attitudes to homosexuality have normalised because society recognises that adult relationships are based on consent.
If the victim in this case was little girl, would you complain about society’s acceptance of heterosexual relationships?
This case is shocking because it is an inversion of a parent’s duty to care for and protect their child.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 12:58 pm
Slow day huh dime?
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 1:02 pm
@Chuck Bird
Your assertion that there’s a “disproportionate amount of underage sex in the homosexual community” is not supported by any statistics that I’m aware of. You are welcome to provide statistics if you have them.
The high teenage pregnancy rate in NZ suggests that underage sex is an activity that is practiced by teenagers of all orientations.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 1:03 pm
What’s that basis, Chucky? You blind and ignorant hatred of homosexuals?
Of course, heterosexuals never ever dream of having sex with underaged. Yeah right. Just google Barely18 or such. Hardly a niche market. Also how about a brief trip to Phuket where you can freely observe your heterosexual lobby for underage sex in action.
Truth is, hetero or homo, there is a certain proportion of people attracted to young, possibly underaged, sex partners.
You however always and invariably single out homosexuals.
By your “logic” we should outlaw marriage because it promotes underaged sex amongst heterosexuals.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 1:20 pm
joana (1,601) Says:
February 6th, 2013 at 12:18 pm
I have heard of this term before with someone i thought was an evil paedophile and so did everyone else that came to the discussion until i realized that he or she was trying to find ways to check the problem before hand rather than have to react like we do every time we see this hits our headlines.
It’s a sexual sickness that looks like substance abuse gone wrong, i don’t know but it is a problem.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 1:26 pm
Never mind slippery slope. Does it not occur to people that this man is not a slippery-slope situation. The guy is what we have come to expect of gay men for centuries, till we suddenly decided that we can’t talk about such things any more.
Connect the dots.
(a) Ellmers is a gay man; and
(b) Ellmers is a decades-long-already proven paedophile with the criminal record.
No extrapolation needed. Connect the dots, full-stop.
But whatever you do, find another gay man to hug today, to prove how much you are in vogue with the rest of the gay-hugging community. Tell yourself whatever lies you need to tell yourself that Ellmers is the aberration.
Connect the dots. Stop lying to yourselves.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 1:38 pm
David Garrett @ 11.50am
A rather disappointing post from you. I don’t always agree wih what you say, but your posts are usually thoughtful and well written. I guess we can all have an off day.
Vote:Do you really want to be compared with the homosexual = paedophile nutters? (e.g. see tropicana’s post above)
February 6th, 2013 at 1:42 pm
@gump
I have supplied the facts many times but am too busy to look them up although they are readily available.
Just consider the percentage of homosexuals in the population. It is about 3% including bisexuals.
It is always hard to get real accurate figures for the relative numbers of underage boys sexually abuses compared to girls. Estimates are that at least half as many boys are and the majority is done by men and men who sexually abuse boys particularly adolescent boys are by definition homosexuals.
One does not have to do the math to see that homosexual are greatly overrepresented in sexual abuse of minors and the ones who are are pretty busy fellows. There job is also made easier because of the pro homosexual propaganda that is everywhere.
There is probably a lot more chance of a confused adolescent who is sexually abused committing suicide than one who thinks they may be homosexual committing suicide because he cannot marry his boyfriend.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 2:03 pm
bc: Perhaps I did not explain myself very well. I will try again.
NO I do not equate homosexuality with paedophilia – if I did, my close gay friend of 25 years standing would not be the godfather of my children, and a person with whom I am happy to leave them any time. I am well aware that one can be homosexual and have no sexual interest in children.
What I AM saying is that just as homosexuality is a sexual orientation, so is paedophilia. If Peter Jenkins – who I am sure won’t mind me calling “a gay friend” is online – he will be able to list links to sound information which demonstrates that paedophilia is also a sexual orientation.
I personally have no problem with homosexuality – once a mental disorder included in DSM III, the “bible” of psychiatric disorders – being normalized. But by definition, homosexuality is “abnormal” ; it deviates from the norm of heterosexuality. Even the most strident gay activists would not claim that homosexuals comprise more than about 0% of any society, and that figure – based as it is on Kinsey’s flawed research – is now considered generous; the true figure is probably less than half that.
Whatever one thinks about normalising homosexuality, it is pointless to deny that once one deviation from the sexual norm is no longer considered abnormal, another cannot potentially also be – whether the latter deviation is paedophilia, necrophilia, masochism or bestiality.
Those of you who decry the logic of this argument are effectivly saying “Oh no, there is a line in the sand (sex between adults and children) that no-one would ever seek to make normal.” Well, good luck with that.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 2:08 pm
Shit…hasty editing while trying to do something else…that sentence should read:
“Even the most strident gay activists would not claim that homosexuals comprise more than about 10% of any society…”
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 2:15 pm
A Christchurch primary school principal named Trevor Ellmers disappeared into the bush without trace many years ago (1970′s?). I wonder if there is a link? We never knew why he disappeared or where he went but it’s usually sex, drugs or money.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 2:23 pm
Gay = Paedophile…..um no. sounds like a meme. I know a lot of gay people and they seem to caught up in their looks, their material acquisition and gossiping about one another but they are a minority of what 2%.
2%? So who is actually pushing the gay debate? this 2%.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 2:47 pm
“So who is actually pushing the gay debate?”
Partly but also people who have adopted the libertarian ideology similar to born again Christians in their fanaticism.
“The human brain is a complex organ with the wonderful power of enabling man to find reasons for continuing to believe whatever it is that he wants to believe.” – Voltaire
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 2:48 pm
DG, one big difference I can think of – probably most of us know gay people that we know are good people, as good as any heterosexuals we know, for example as tristworthy with children.
Very few of us will know any paedophiles, but if we did, and those who do, will probably almost all despise their behaviour.
There is zero indication any attempt will be made for paedophilia will be ‘normalised’ in the forseeable future, and I’m sure if anyone bothered polling on it there would be overwhelming opposition.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 2:58 pm
David Garrett, well said.
Don’t think it won’t happen. There are already moves afoot to remove paedophilia as a mental illness and to try and normalize it. There was a conference in Baltimore only a couple years ago to discuss just this –
This from someone who was there –
It will happen.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 2:59 pm
“…..But by definition, homosexuality is “abnormal” ; it deviates from the norm of heterosexuality….”
David, I keep telling them that homosexuals and hetrosexuals have exactly the same fertility rates, which means that homosexuals supress their desire to be who they REALLY are -instead- they want to be something differant by elevating sexual deviancy above themselves.
Worshipers!
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:00 pm
So is heterosexuality.
By definition of what? By definition of “normality”? There is no clear definition of that.
If you don’t believe 10%, then maybe 5%? That’s one in twenty. Fewer than 1 in twenty human beings are blond, does that make them abnormal? It just makes them a slightly less common variation of normal.
Normal/abnormal should not matter anyway. If I want to sew buttons to my earlobes, that’s clearly abnormal, but it doesn’t hurt anyone else and there should be no law against it. But if I get my kicks out of pushing over elderly people, I should be arrested.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:05 pm
The line in the sand is adult consent.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:05 pm
Life imitates art… De sensitising the public through music videos springs to mind. A form of grooming in itself and perpetrated by whom?
Dirty old white men mostly, just like the predominant stats for your average pedo I would imagine.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:07 pm
ps, the Homosexuality activist, NAMBLA links –
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:09 pm
Harriet:
Correct me if this is just me, but men (gay and straight alike) have no ability to control where their sperm swim once they’re heading up that fallopian tube. I guess it’s your same disordered thought that causes you to believe that a zygote is a living breathing human being.
Yours is the stupidest post I have seen in a long while – and just today I was reading was “Black with a Vengeance” had to say!! I’m not sure if you’re being ironic, in which case, try to make it more obvious.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:11 pm
@BwaV
Vote:Actually, if you look at the statistics, a disproportionate amount of child abuse is committed by Maori on Maori children. But you can bury your head in the sand if you want.
February 6th, 2013 at 3:12 pm
What is this manic obsession with the sex lives of other people? Look after your own – if you have one.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:12 pm
And –
Yeh, lets do it for the “children’s sake”
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:12 pm
The Government owns the majority of Air NZ yet it does not concern Key that men are discriminated on Air NZ flights in that they cannot sit next to an unaccompanied minor. Key could not give a stuff cause it could not happen to him. The same with the anti smacking legislation. He will not affect him.
Key is a major mover in this pro homosexual legislation. He said before the 2008 election that there would unlikely be more of this PC crap.
The only good thing about National is that it is better than the alternative.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:16 pm
@Chuck Bird
The overwhelming majority of sexual abuse is carried out within families by heterosexual offenders.
As it happens, I have the NZ Corrections Department statistics for prisoners that have been jailed for sex offenses against children.
You say that “One does not have to do the math to see that homosexual are greatly overrepresented in sexual abuse of minors”
Actually we do have to do the math. Please tell us what you believe is the percentage of offenders who are jailed for sexually abusing male children in NZ.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:16 pm
Post up them pedo abuse stats by ethnicity and gender if you got em then tristanb…cheers
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:20 pm
Leave paedophiles alone – shoot the advocates instead!
“minor-attracted persons” – Legitimising their poor behaviour under that same old tired lefty banner of being ‘more humane’.
Supporters of this crap are plainly fucken sick!
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:23 pm
What I AM saying is that just as homosexuality is a sexual orientation, so is paedophilia.
David this is the premise upon which your whole argument rests. I don’t agree they are the same however, I see homosexuality as an orientation but I see paedophilia as a perversion in the same way BDSM is a perversion.
A small sub-population of both homosexuals and straights are attracted to children, others are attracted to BDSM, etc etc. This is evidence to me that they are different dynamics.
The evil of paedophilia is how could you deliberately do it. It really does take a special kind of sadist. Anyone whose been following the Saville case knows this evil spreads all over society. Saville and it’s eventual outcome is a mere tip of a very big iceburg. They’re throwing some big names to the wolves because they have to but those guys will never talk lest they immediately die but it goes much higher. This guy is clearly not connected to the organised bastards who use state-run facilities to source their victims from, he’s just a vicious amateur, clearly. But Saville illustrates the heights to where that perversion flourishes and it’s naive to imagine it’s not going on, right as we discuss this, all over the world, right now. Infuriatingly.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:23 pm
@gump
I am not into silly games. If you have the figures show them. I will do the math then if you can’t.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:25 pm
Cos you know tristanb, if this Elmers chap were Pasifikan, most of you cracka asses would be rabidly frothing at the sub human nature of his crime and attributing it to his ‘racial’ make up.
But if we find kiddie fiddlers in our culture we tend to take the law into our own hands and that can act as a powerful deterrent.
Something to be said for going all Jake the muss on your uncle bullies of the world.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:27 pm
@Black with a Vengeance
Child Sex Offenders in NZ by ethnicity (source = NZ Corrections Department, 2011)
European 51%
Vote:Maori 35%
Pacific 13%
Other 1%
February 6th, 2013 at 3:32 pm
“whether the latter deviation is paedophilia, necrophilia, masochism or bestiality.”
Is masochism illegal? Genuine question, no silly point scoring intended (and no, I don’t have a vested interest, just curious)
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:37 pm
Reid, there is a growing voice by groups saying that pedophilia is indeed an orientation. eg –
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/jan/03/paedophilia-bringing-dark-desires-light
Interestingly, it’s in Canada, where gay marriage is legal.
You can follow the parliamentary exchanges here –
http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=4959361&Language=E&Mode=1
To be honest, I don’t know how one can say that homosexuality is an orientation, and pedophilia not.
Vote:They either both are, or neither. Else, how can one sexual urge be an orientation, and the other not?
February 6th, 2013 at 3:39 pm
I wonder how much of this kind of content is hidden away behind encryption at Dotcom’s Mega site…
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:47 pm
Cheers gump….as I imagined, over half.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:48 pm
I wonder how many businesses have the likes of Ellmers working for them ….
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:52 pm
Gump, so there are more European child sex offenders than Maori?
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:53 pm
@Chuck Bird
Yes – that is correct. But the ethnicity statistics are significantly different for sexual offenders with adult victims.
For the sake of completeness:
European 36%
Vote:Maori 50%
Pacific 11%
Other 3%
February 6th, 2013 at 3:57 pm
I don’t know how one can say that homosexuality is an orientation, and pedophilia not.
I gave you one reality that is that both homosexuals and straights engage in paedophilia. Homosexual orientation grosses the gambit of perversions, just like straights cross the gambit. In other words, for every single perversion you have a ratio of straights and a ratio of homoosexuals who engage in it, from paedophilia to BDSM to everything else. What would be interesting to know would be the ratio of homosexuals in each bucket, so we could see how paedophilia rates alongside other perversions. That would be evidence one way or the other.
But to me this is the clincher as to why they are not the same thing. That you have one phenomena transcending the other by one phenomena occupying space in each sector of the other phenomena.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 3:59 pm
The age distributions are also interesting. Child sex offenders tend to be significantly older than sex offenders who target adult victims.
40 and above / 56%
30-39 years / 24%
20-29 years / 16%
Under 20 / 4%
Having said that, there can be quite a lot of time between the offenses being committed and the convictions (compared to other crimes).
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 4:24 pm
@Reid “I gave you one reality that is that both homosexuals and straights engage in paedophilia.”
Well, yes and no. It’s not that simple –
As a medical diagnosis, paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest toward *prepubescent* children (generally age 11 years or younger, though specific diagnosis criteria for the disorder extends the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13).
In popular usage, paedophilia means any sexual interest in children or the act of child sexual abuse, often termed “paedophilic behavior”… This common use application also extends to the sexual interest in and sexual contact with pubescent or post-pubescent minors.
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia
In other words, feeling attracted to your neighbour’s 14-year-old daughter isn’t quite the same as feeling attracted to her 4-year-old sister (I’m not advocating acting on either of those feelings, of course).
To a certain extent, “exclusive” paedophiles could probably be thought of as outside the usual heterosexual or homosexual distinction.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 4:45 pm
Any thoughts on why there is a greater propensity for old white men to fiddle with kids ?
Nature, nurture, culture, genetics?
If Maori have a greater propensity for violence due to a supposed ‘warrior’ gene , do Europeans have a greater propensity to sexually abuse children due to a ‘paedophile’ gene?
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 4:46 pm
@ Gump,
“The overwhelming majority of sexual abuse is carried out within families by heterosexual offenders.
As it happens, I have the NZ Corrections Department statistics for prisoners that have been jailed for sex offenses against children.”
Have you got those figures please?
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 4:59 pm
To a certain extent, “exclusive” paedophiles could probably be thought of as outside the usual heterosexual or homosexual distinction.
But I don’t understand how from your post. Yes the phenomena of extremes within a perversion is part of it’s nature as a phenomena. But so what? I mean yes, it does have that.
But specifically how does that observation which I agree with, relate to my 3:23/57?
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 5:27 pm
@BWaV
You should learn some primary school statistics. Or at least look up the word “disproportionately” in the dictionary.
35% of child sex offenders are Maori. Maori are 15% of the population. What does that tell you? Maybe the “warrior gene”?
Actually, forget my initial comment about primary school statistics. You should stay as far away from schools as possible.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 5:32 pm
Fletch (3,865) Says:
February 6th, 2013 at 3:12 pm
Well then the stupid gay community need to wake up and cast these groups out.
Pedophilia is a sickness and allowing groups to operate out there like this NAMBLA only worsens the gay community respect it has for community structure, if they continue then they need to be high lighted globally and teach the gay community to not touch certain or cruise below a certain age group because that is what it is. Old sharks cruising isn’t it? I’ve been around enough gays to know when a young male has a group of them all a flutter and i’ve seen the mover in a older gay with the look of glee on his face when came to a young male prospect.
Anything written in support of NAMBLA is a facade, the true evil is the Indoctrinator who wants them young isn’t it? to create a thing for their own enjoyment.
We should bring back Hanging to deter the dirtiness of men getting out of control.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 5:37 pm
What it tells me tristanb, is that there are more kiddie fiddlers of Euro descent than Maori and more Europeans than Maori in NZ and a disproportionate amount of racist morons your family than mine.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 5:39 pm
It’s okay for straight people, but illegal for gay people. Hang on, that’s marriage. Easy to confuse the two.
Masochism is legal for all.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 5:40 pm
Well, you’re not very smart are you. Because that’s not what the numbers in my post say.
They say that a random Maori adult has a higher chance of being a sex offender than a random white adult.
It’s a fact.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 5:44 pm
“there are more kiddie fiddlers of Euro descent than Maori”
It’s just that shagging your family is par for the course among Murri Darkie as it was far too dangerous for the Bro’s to head off thru the bush to the next Pa for a fuck in case they got killed and eaten.
So it is not regarded as a crime among the benighted folks. More a cultural thing!
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 5:44 pm
You’re right, I’m just extrapolating from incomplete data to assume there is a disproportionate amount of racist morons in your family.
Some of you might not be racist
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 5:45 pm
Sorry, typo:
They say that a random Maori adult has a higher chance of being a child sex offender than a random white adult.
Although my other statement is also true.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 5:52 pm
Ooh let’s disregard the facts and play the probability game.
So what is it that makes more european men choose to fiddle with kids?
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 5:59 pm
But how come we’re ignoring the straights who also do this?
How come it’s a “gay” problem?
That’s just nuts.
I once heard a senior cop make a very astute observation which was that porn is a drug. What porn does it moves you to other levels. When I was young Playboy was the only thing, Penthouse was barely starting, that was it. Now its available, sadly, to all.
But the point is the more you watch it the more the “old” stuff get’s boring and over time you want more and different and this is precisely, precisely, what drugs do. This is changing our children, BTW. It shouldn’t be happening.
However this kind of spectrum is also what perversions are about. A perversion is a spectrum of thinking. And it’s the thoughts that begat actions, not the other way round. You don’t do then think, you think, then you do. A perversion is a gradual series of more and more extreme fantasizing that sometimes at any point results in action. It’s driven by fantasy. And fantasy is driven by porn. And the extent to which one avoids or participates in that is limited only by one’s own moral structure, whatever that may be.
That’s the origin of everyone’s place on any perversion spectra, from “not at all interested/simply repelled” to “completely obsessed with it 24/7/365″ and everyone has a place, on any of those spectra.
But the whole point is this same principle covers both gays and straights, to equal degree. If you have data that proves otherwise, pray share it, because casual observation imagines both gays and straights inhabit each sector on the perversion scale in approximately the same proportion as they inhabit the general population.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 6:00 pm
The same thing that makes maori beat ten times more kiddys to death we all have ferals
just some are more feral than most
Face it PBWWV there is no moral justification for the horrific rate of child abuse among the Polynesians
Vote:Blaming white man predisposes that the abuse was lesser before whitey arrived.
Not according to some new Zealand historians infanticide was practiced widely by maori.
February 6th, 2013 at 6:01 pm
“They say that a random Maori adult has a higher chance of being a sex offender than a random white adult.”
The same logic applies to homosexuals and sex with minors. Although heterosexuals numerically offend at a higher rate due to the fact that homosexuals make up only 3% of the population their offending rate is a lot higher.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 6:02 pm
At least they ate them afterwards Griff!
Waste not want not Lad!
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 6:11 pm
nom nom nom…..burb
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 6:12 pm
@Chuck Bird. Cool, so what are the stats? Also, the rate of male homosexuality is probably towards the higher side of 5-10%, not 3%.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 6:14 pm
Griff (4,196) Says:
February 6th, 2013 at 6:00 pm
Of course infanticide was practiced before colonization, it was a land of almost zero resources and then came the European who had the pig, goat, and the cow and horse and everything else it brought with them. Now i’m wondering what is the next wave of settlers to come here? What are they going to bring that will modify the local population existing here now?
Who’s going to modify the old empire remnants?
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 6:16 pm
“What are they going to bring that will modify the local population existing here now?”
Perhaps the Yuan Azeraph?
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 6:24 pm
Reid (12,954) Says:
February 6th, 2013 at 5:59 pm
That’s a compelling post Reid.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 6:29 pm
Reid (12,954) Says:
February 6th, 2013 at 5:59 pm
I have to admit Reid that as I get older I prefer to look at “Granny Porn”.
The young stuff just upsets me as I recollect what I once looked like!
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 6:30 pm
No Yvette tonight so far?
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 6:35 pm
@Reid
The problem with your argument is that sexual offending (per capita) has been steadily dropping in NZ since it peaked in the 1980s.
So it would appear, if anything, that access to pornography is actually reducing the levels of sexual offending in our society.
This observation has also been made in Japan – a country which is saturated with what is (by Western standards) fairly extreme pornography, yet has one of the lowest incidences of sexual offending in the World.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 6:49 pm
gump (453) Says:
February 6th, 2013 at 6:35 pm
Japan is still highly traditional socially, is there any other country that you can use that is similar to Nz?
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 6:53 pm
Johnboy (9,715) Says:
February 6th, 2013 at 6:16 pm
Come live in Auckland, that’s the best way to see it in action but to me these are colonists that want to stay, it’s the globalist population that want to roll in and roll out that have me worried. The global Locust
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 6:57 pm
Why would a rational man move to idiot Jafaland when he has paradise where he is Azeraph?
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 7:00 pm
“Japan – a country which is saturated with what is (by Western standards) fairly extreme pornography”
They tend to pixelate the vital bits gump.
Not that I would know of course!
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 7:10 pm
Oh good grief
Stop feeding the BwaV troll.
It dwells in a logic free zone with the sole purpose of finding an excuse to abuse and affront.
I guess without this hobby it would have no purpose in life.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 7:16 pm
“@Chuck Bird. Cool, so what are the stats? Also, the rate of male homosexuality is probably towards the higher side of 5-10%, not 3%.”
That why I could not be bothered searching the net.
Where are your stats about male homosexuality – Kinsey?
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 7:21 pm
Coming back to where this all began, paedophilia, and our attitudes to it …
I notice the scoffers have gone a little quiet now that the internal musings of NAMBLA – and even some psychiatrists for Christ’s sake – talking about “tolerance” and “childrens’ right to sexual expression” are revealed. Not quite so easy to say “oh it will never happen” now, is it chaps?
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 7:24 pm
So you can’t back up your statement with facts. Well, at least you’re not flat-out denying facts like Vengeance is.
You said “Although heterosexuals numerically offend at a higher rate due to the fact that homosexuals make up only 3% of the population their offending rate is a lot higher.”
So did you just make that assertion up? I’m not saying it’s not true. But you’re not showing that it is, and I have no reason to believe it is true, other than your word. And you seem to have an agenda. (The anti-homosexual agenda.)
Oh, and contrary to popular belief, there has actually been research on sexuality since Alfred Kinsey.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 8:05 pm
Just as important.
Actually, child abuse is very rarely indeed committed by any old men.
Vote:It is almost always committed by dirty young men.
February 6th, 2013 at 8:13 pm
And deny it all you want to, the statistics are clear. As shown just yesterday all over our news media as regards this very story we are discussing, gay men are far more likely proportionately than straight men, to be paedophiles. You might not like this fact, but deny it at the cost of our children, and our grandchildren.
Vote:Personally, I think our children deserve better than to have a whole generation live in denial about child safety.
This not to say that every gay man is a potential child molester. But a gay man is far more likely to be, than a straight man, all other things being equal. Ask any cop, not just me.
February 6th, 2013 at 8:23 pm
@tropicana
The statistics aren’t clear. This is the reason that you can’t produce any statistics to support your argument.
Gay men are not more likely then straight men to be pedophiles. I’d recommend that you take you own advice and ask a cop – you might actually learn something.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 8:28 pm
@David Garrett
NAMBLA is on the lunatic fringe of the spectrum – it isn’t affiliated or accepted by any mainstream Gay rights associations.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 8:32 pm
@tropicana
Why did you state “Actually, child abuse is very rarely indeed committed by any old men.” ?
This is categorically untrue. The 2011 NZ Corrections Department statistics show that 56% of child sex offenders are over 40 years old. The majority of child sex offenders are actually old men.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 8:45 pm
@tropicana
I suggest you read Peter Davis’ book “Intimate details & Vital Statistics”. Check the table on page 62. It states in NZ 2.3% of males had same sex ever. The rates of perversion are higher in the US and the UK.
I am not sure where Peter did his research in NZ. Some reckon Hagley Park but others say the Greenhouse. I suggest you ask him next time you see him. You could always ask Helen but I do not think she has seen too much of him lately.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 8:58 pm
@Chuck Bird
I have a copy of the book in front of me. The same-gender sex rates listed for the UK and US are 6.1% and 6.4% respectively.
Why do you think there is such a difference between the reporting rates in NZ, the UK, and the US? I’d suggest that the actual figures are closer to the 6% level quoted for the UK and the US.
As an amusing aside, the same table indicates that 20.4% of US Women have had anal sex during their lifetimes. This suggests that the overwhelming majority of anal sex takes place in heterosexual relationships.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 9:11 pm
” I’d suggest that the actual figures are closer to the 6% level quoted for the UK and the US.”
Firstly, why?
Secondly, look at the definition – same sex ever. That could include a couple of teenagers jerking each other off once or even an underage boy having sex with someone much older. It sound like you believe what suit you.
BTW – where are the figures you say you have relates to the sex of youths sexually abused underage?
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 9:20 pm
@Chuck Bird
It’s generally accepted that the origins of homosexuality are biological. So it’s reasonable to infer that the incidence rates will be similar between the three countries.
You told me earlier that you didn’t want the statistics. I’d suggest that you go and find them for yourself.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 9:37 pm
gump @ 8.28: Oh really? So the quote in the post by Fletch at 3.07 is fake? The conference of psychiatrists in Canada referred to earlier also didn’t happen? Is all the evidence contained in this thread faked, or the supposed authors misquoted?
Ponder this: When “gay lib” (of which I was once an honorary member) was established in NZ in the 70′s, if someone had said “Let these homos have the rights the rights they demand, the next thing they will all be demanding that they be allowed to get married” what do you think the liberal media of the day would have said? “Oh, don’t be ridiculous! Dont be such a bigot! All they want is not to be discriminated against…no-one would ever dream about demanding the right to marry…”
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 9:37 pm
Chuck:Estimates are that at least half as many boys are and the majority is done by men and men who sexually abuse boys particularly adolescent boys are by definition homosexuals.
Still confused I see. Just because someone has sex with someone else of the same gender it doesn’t follow that they are homosexual, so your claim fails. Homosexuality refers to orientation.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 9:58 pm
gump:
Do you know how many commenters on this website you’re offending by calling those over 40 “old men”?
(Not me.)
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 9:59 pm
DG:The conference of psychiatrists in Canada referred to earlier also didn’t happen?
Who cares? There are people with degrees in geology who think that the world was created in 6 days a few thousand years ago. There are people with degrees in history who think that the holocaust is a hoax. There are people with medical degrees who think that AIDS isn’t caused by a virus. Why should we be surprised if there a few psychiatrists who think wweird things about pedophilia. Indeed, given the large number of psychiatrists, its quite possible that some of them are pedophiles themselves and maybe this is why they showed up to the meeting.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 10:04 pm
I’ve posted this link before but its obviously time to post it again:
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 10:45 pm
@David Garrett
I’m pleased to hear you supported gay liberation groups as a young man. Most of the Act people I’ve met have progressive views on civil rights.
I can assure you that gays have been campaigning for marriage equality since before the 1970s, and I’m pleased to note that Western societies have progressed to the point where it has become a real possibility.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 10:49 pm
Fair enough for at least keeping me honest, but I disagree with your bottom line. I went from a similar source which as it turns out, matches the source that you referred me to.
One says that the median age of child sex offenders is 41: the other describes 41 as the mean age.
Sorry, but like tristanb at 9.58pm, I didn’t think that age 41 would be envisaged as within the “dirty-old-man” image.
The original moot was “dirty-old-men”. I’m inclined not to include 41-year-olds in my conceptualisation of “dirty old men”. Not even 51-year-olds. I think perhaps that “dirty-old-men” might include 61-year-olds, but I’m even reluctant to do this.
So if we say that “dirty-old-men” are potentially 61 and above, then my point stands. There are a lot more dirty-men, who qualify as dirty-not-old-men, than might be conceptualised in the term, “dirty-old-men”.
Perhaps in distinguishing between dirty old men and dirty young men, I left out another potential group of dirty middle-aged men. But these too fall outside of the original moot. Which was my original point. The concept of dirty-old-men being responsible for most child sex offending is clearly not a valid one. Certainly what is true is this: A lot more old men, carry the stigma of being dirty old men, than most old men deserve.
Let me put it another way round. Young people perceive wrongly that most old men are dirty old men. Few in fact are. Young people probably think that 75 percent of old men are dirty old men. Probably a more realistic number would be something well under one percent.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 11:09 pm
The original moot was dirty old ‘white’ men. Of which at 41, you’re old enough to qualify, especially if you’re fiddling kids or shagging a consenting 16yr old…but hey, spin it how you like tropicana.
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 11:10 pm
http://www.steve-baldwin.com/articles/43-articles/184-child-molestation
Vote:February 6th, 2013 at 11:30 pm
Actually it does [follow] for most people and the announcements of social engineering academics will not change that fact.
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 3:34 am
I have read almost every issue of NZs gay newspapers for the last 20 years. I have NEVER read any article which condoned or supported pedophilia or sex with underage teens! Put up citations or just shut it please.
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 4:45 am
People who sell their children for sex usually do so for drug money. If they are paedophiles themselves, they’re probably happy to lend them out for free!
Either way, there’s no way 5 years is an adequate sentence for someone like that. They should go away for a long time.
As for the debate raging on this thread, consent is always the primary issue. It is widely accepted that children, by definition, cannot give satisfactory consent to sexual activity. One can disapprove of all manner of sexual perversions, but as long as there is consent, such behaviour should be left alone. I do not buy the argument that the government redefining marriage will contribute to further moral acceptance of sexual perversions where consent is questionable. The leap of logic is too great, since the gay marriage debate does not centre around consent but on whether this consensual behaviour should be afforded greater social acceptability.
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 7:51 am
@gump
“It’s generally accepted that the origins of homosexuality are biological.”
It’s generally accepted that the origins of homosexuality are biological by homosexual activists and liberals.
http://www.mygenes.co.nz/download.htm
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 8:15 am
@MrLimerick
Have you ever read ads where men 30 or 40 + are looking for boys as young as 16?
Have look at online dating site and you will not see similar ads.
If I was hosting a party and some adult man of that age showed up with a 16 yo. He would not be welcome.
If it was a homosexual party some homosexuals might feel the same as me would consider him as a chicken hawk similar to what men think of a man who might attract a much younger but adult woman.
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 8:29 am
Boy Scouts delay decision on admitting gays
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10863906
This is just one of the reasons I oppose homosexual activists and their libertarian bed mates.
Anyone does not think a 12 to 14 year old boy would not be at increased risks going on a camp with a homosexual Scout leader should not be a parent.
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 8:42 am
My guess is that the father isn’t a pedophile himself, but more likely has a serious drug habit and will do anything for money.
Most pedophiles do not ‘share’ their victim. They will share images etc, but when they get the ‘real’ thing, it is usually theirs alone.
Two different clinics needed for these two.
One can recover, and have to live with what he did to his son.
The other won’t recover, and will always be a danger to innocent children. Pedophilia is not a disease that can be cured.
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 8:48 am
Chuck Bird (2,992) Says:
February 7th, 2013 at 8:29 am
————————–
You are kidding?
Most pedophiles are not homosexual. Just because they like little boys, doesn’t make them gay. They usually just like little children, either sex will do, but little boys are easier to get hold of, because parents will usually not suspect the same sex predator.
It is time people started to brush up on their knowledge of pedophilia, and the behaviour of pedophiles. As long as people ignorantly blame homosexuality, for something that is a defiant and incurable ‘sickness’ and totally separate to homosexually, our children are going to continue to be victims.
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 8:59 am
Judith, your reading comprehension is just as poor on this thread as on those related to David Bain.
I stated 12 to 14 year old boys. I doubt if you could find a case where a man has sex with both boys and girls of the age I mentioned.
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 10:09 am Vote:
February 7th, 2013 at 2:22 pm
@Chuck Bird
The link you posted is hilarious.
The person who runs the mygenes.co.nz website is Dr Neil Whitehead (who is not actually a medical doctor – he has a PhD).
Neil Whitehead is a contributing member of NARTH (the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality).
For those that don’t know, NARTH is a highly controversial American organistation that claims to be able to convert gays into straights. Their views have been rejected by all mainstream psychological and psychiatric organisations. The wiki article on NARTH sums up the situation perfectly:
“No major mental health professional organization has sanctioned efforts to change sexual orientation and most of them have adopted policy statements cautioning the profession and the public about treatments that purport to change sexual orientation. These include the American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, American Counseling Association, National Association of Social Workers in the USA, Royal College of Psychiatrists, and Australian Psychological Society.
The American Psychological Association and the Royal College of Psychiatrists expressed concerns that the positions espoused by NARTH are not supported by science and create an environment in which prejudice and discrimination can flourish.”
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 2:25 pm
@Fletch
Who are you quoting? Are you too embarrassed to post your sources?
The Blanchard paper made no assessment of the adult sexual attraction of the offenders that were profiled:
“Blanchard et al. (2000). Fraternal birth order and sexual orientation in pedophiles. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 29, 463-478.
This study categorized convicted sex offenders according to whether they molested or reported sexual attraction to boys only, girls only, or both boys and girls. These groups were labeled, respectively, homosexual pedophiles, heterosexual pedophiles, and bisexual pedophiles. This classification referred to their attractions to children. Adult sexual orientation (or even whether the men had an adult sexual orientation) wasn’t assessed.”
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 2:54 pm
“The link you posted is hilarious.”
Your response is to me.
You are claiming that a bisexual who wants so get married and have committed marriage is wasting his time trying to stop have extra marital sex.
How about a bisexual who wants to preserve his marriage you think he is also wasting his time?
In any case that is a side issue. You adopt a common homosexual tactic of personal attacks rather than the issue.
Dr Neil Whitehead has a PhD in biochemistry not homophobia.
The theory that people are born either heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual is nonsense.
Like nearly all human behaviours there is a strong element of free will. When you are able to develop a blood test that can tell whether a person is heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual I will take you seriously.
You like global warming alarmist are trying to pass off your opinion as fact.
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 2:59 pm
@gump
I can accept that in the case of perverts who have sex only with young children as opposed to teenagers it may be unfair to label that according to the sex of their victims.
However, to claim that a man who sex with an underage teenage boy is not either a homosexual or bisexual is plain nonsense I wonder if you libertarian friends but that spin.
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 5:20 pm
Chuck:It’s generally accepted that the origins of homosexuality are biological by homosexual activists and liberals.
http://www.mygenes.co.nz/download.htm
It is generally accepted by the scientific community, not just activists, that homosexuality has a biological origin. The book you keep citing isn’t reliable. Its clear in the first chapter that the author has a mediocre understanding of genetics. His book misrepresents facts, misunderstands definitions, and omits studies that contradict his position.
When you are able to develop a blood test that can tell whether a person is heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual I will take you seriously.
Seriously? What does blood have to do with this? There are lots of genetic and biological conditions for which we don’t have blood tests – think left-handedness or multiple sclerosis for example.
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 5:41 pm
I checked out the NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association)
It included a memorial write-up for Tom Reeves. The founder of this paedophile club. He campaigned for the “age of consent” to be removed entirely.
http://www.nambla.org/tom_reeves.html
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 6:29 pm
Ewwww…dirty old white man!!!
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8274987/Journalist-admits-child-abuse-charges
Off with his nuts!!!
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 6:37 pm
Seems to be a pattern here, but I can not quite pick it…
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 6:40 pm
Kea
I wonder if I can help…..
Does “In the name of the Father, the Son & the Holy Ghost let me see your bottom” ring any bells?
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 6:47 pm
nasska, to be fair, with their leader Graham Capill locked up, many would have no guidance on matters of morality. The Christian Heritage Party was very big on sexual morality.
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 6:55 pm
gump, you can read the excerpt from the paper yourself here. Luckily, it’s part of the Introduction of the paper, so you don’t have to pay to download –
http://business.highbeam.com/435395/article-1G1-65486790/fraternal-birth-order-and-sexual-orientation-pedophiles
My “source” is the paper itself. So I’m not sure what question you’re asking.
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 6:55 pm
Capill certainly took a few of the gullible faithful for a ride…..while the parents had their eyes off the ball, hand wringing & waffling about abortion & degeneracy, dear old trusty Graham was fiddling their kids.
Must be a lesson to be learnt somewhere there.
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 6:59 pm
ps, gump I note that the ‘source” of your comment has “rainbow” in the URL, which supposes a certain bias as well.
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 7:09 pm
@Fletch
Since you seem determined to ignore it, the major problem with that paper is:
“Adult sexual orientation (or even whether the men had an adult sexual orientation) wasn’t assessed.”
The source that I am quoting is a website by Gregory M. Herek – an internationally renowned Professor of Psychology at the University of California at Davis (UCD). Here is a link to his biography:
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/bio.html
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 7:12 pm
There’s a great lesson in there: Don’t judge a book by it’s cover.
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 8:18 pm
It certainly appears this dude is a homosexual rights lobbyist.
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/bibliography.html
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 8:33 pm
He’s an openly gay research psychologist.
Would you expect him to argue against civil rights for homosexuals?
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 8:43 pm
No, but I would take as much notice of his “research” as you do of others who may be Christian.
Vote:February 7th, 2013 at 10:22 pm
@Chuck Bird
I do take notice of Christians. Having been raised in a Christian household, I am no stranger to Christian teachings.
I was raised to believe that it is solely for God to determine whether – and to what extent – a person acquires guilt before God.
Vote: