General Debate 4 February 2013

February 4th, 2013 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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104 Responses to “General Debate 4 February 2013”

  1. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    Only 2 days to go before we get it all rubbed in our faces again

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  2. Pete George (23,326 comments) says:

    Shearer will get his leadership endorsed by his compliant caucus today, so Labour’s brilliantly successful strategist decides a diversion – and likens Shearer to Norman Kirk.

    And Mike Williams on Firstline said that Shearer’s recent speech was the best he has ever heard.

    There were no Tui billboards in Big Norm’s day.

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  3. Griff (6,995 comments) says:

    When will maori remember that the prime minister carrys the mana of the whole county on his shoulders. To attack him when he is the paramount chief of 4,500,000 people is so far outside of maori protocol as to warrant instant and permanent banning from waitangi. That maori have allowed the abuse of our elected officials to continue shows the duplicity of their plea for cultural respect. Respect goes two ways we should not have official representation at waitangi until waitangi is respectful to us

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  4. Paulus (2,562 comments) says:

    Labour left (what’s left of them) will be pissed off today as they do not get their way, and Shearer gets re-elected unapposed.
    After all its the best that Labour can do at present, as they watch Mr Teleprompter be overtaken by the real Left – Russel Norman, and token part Maori Mrs McGillicuddy.
    What a shame for the declining party of the left, Labour, only to be taken over by the middle class, white, well educated, financially secure, mainly New Zealanders, of the liberal Left – Greenpeace.
    Look at the damage they have done to Australian politics – effectively stuffed the Union left, in their opposition to everything that has taken Australia forward.

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  5. Lance (2,561 comments) says:

    Excellent, sports stars are immune from DIC unlike us mere mortals.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10863261

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  6. Duxton (595 comments) says:

    Yes, I was amused to hear Trevor Mallard liken David Shearer to Norman Kirk. Does this mean that, like Kirk, Shearer:

    1. has had an affair with his secretary?

    2. is paranoid about the SIS, and believes he is being spied on?

    3. hates the US, and would knowingly harm our relationship with the US for blind ideological reasons?

    4. leads a shadow cabinet that is full of lazy incompetents?

    5. will screw the economy if he is ever elected PM?

    6. likes shooting pigeons?

    I’ll never forget a left-leaning history lecturer noting that Kirk had had the wonderful fortune of dying in office, before the full extent of his incompetence had become clear. As a result, he remains our most over-rated Prime Minister.

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  7. Elaycee (4,332 comments) says:

    Lance 8.22am.

    Yup – an appalling decision by the Judge. So much for having to front and accept the consequences of actions.

    Perhaps the Crown will appeal?

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  8. pq (728 comments) says:

    About pseudonyms, and writing on the Farrar column .
    Recently I was reading sideways, a Brian Edwards column, … and it described people like me as cowards, because our real names are not put with our writing or opinion. Apparently many people like to write on internet, but their opinion or writing could have a bad effect on them. That is they want to say something earnest, or flippant but remain anonymous.
    Edwards said we are cowards, and
    I thought about this. Edwards even old as he is, leafblower article that he is, is correct. I go over now to sort out identity and return as paul scott christchurch

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  9. Longknives (4,686 comments) says:

    Shouldn’t the aformentioned ‘sports star’ have thought about the consequences of getting shitfaced and jumping behind the wheel beforehand?
    I mean, if international travel was so important to her wouldn’t she try to keep her nose clean??
    I’d hate to think she knew her ‘high profile’ was going to get her off Scot-Free and with name supression….

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  10. Longknives (4,686 comments) says:

    pq- Then Mark Twain,Lewis Carroll, George Orwell etc etc must have been ‘cowards’…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pen_names

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  11. magsta (311 comments) says:

    pq ..when you’ve sorted out that identity problem, could you please give a guide to such a computer-illiterate as me?

    I never wanted to travel under a nom-de-plume, but originally thought I had to, to get logged-on (like some form of password). I can’t seem to get on to this site from my computer address without being logged in as Magsta…..

    Maggy Wassilieff

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  12. Lance (2,561 comments) says:

    Who cares what Brian Edwards writes?

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  13. Nookin (3,178 comments) says:

    Looks like the closet will be bare at the end of the day. Everyone is coming out.

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  14. Elaycee (4,332 comments) says:

    Recently I was reading sideways, a Brian Edwards column…

    That explains a lot….

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  15. iMP (2,344 comments) says:

    More Christian hunting over same-sex marriage, this time in Oregon over not so sweet cakes. Baker to be investigated for refusing to make a cake.

    http://conzervative.wordpress.com/wp-admin/post.php?post=18809&action=edit&message=6&postpost=v2

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  16. pq (728 comments) says:

    People please answer the dilemma of pseudonym seriously. I take Mr Farrar and this NZ Nat column absolutely seriously.
    It is my ambition politically to return NZ Nat Government 2014, but I am litttle.
    There are some things, truths even,there will be a bombshell after they re elect Shearer.
    Magsta above , you can find me easily PaulScott New Zealand

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  17. Longknives (4,686 comments) says:

    A crazy reminder to take care crossing the roads today Kiwibloggers…

    http://thechive.com/2013/02/02/a-compilation-of-close-calls-video/

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  18. Pete George (23,326 comments) says:

    @3Politics “Harawira may protest at Waitangi”.

    The sun may rise on Waitangi Day.

    Mana Party leader Hone Harawira is not ruling out protesting when Prime Minister John Key arrives at Waitangi, saying it’s one of a number of opportunities Maori have on the day to get their views across.

    “Should I choose, I will voice my protest at what I see to be the Crown’s continued denial of the status of the Treaty, and I would expect support from the tangata whenua for that stand,” he told NZ Newswire.

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Harawira-may-protest-at-Waitangi/tabid/1607/articleID/285500/Default.aspx

    Further cemented Waitangi Day as the spotlight a few Maori activists use to grandstand and grizzle. While that continues it will never be seen as a day of celebration for New Zealand as a whole.

    Apart from inevitable repeats of same old in the news it’s little more than a day off work to me.

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  19. iMP (2,344 comments) says:

    Although, someone might say its a bit ‘gay’ for a manly man like Aaron Klein to be making wedding cakes anyway, but i couldn’t possibly comment. What is a ‘gay cake’ anyway?

    http://conzervative.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/baker-wont-make-gay-wedding-cake

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  20. Viking2 (11,275 comments) says:

    Edwards is a boring failed Irish communist. It makes it his job to be visible in the landscape because without it he would amount to sweet fuck all and no one, and I mean no one, would even notice he was born or inhabited this earth.
    Like Paul Holmes, if it wasn’t for a TV screen he would be an unknown.
    Many of us don’t have that problem.

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  21. Griff (6,995 comments) says:

    Shit I should not have posted that first thing
    getting almost 50 likes will haunt me for ever
    Who wants to score the same # of likes as…… reddy?

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  22. Don the Kiwi (1,649 comments) says:

    Just to keep things real for you Griff, I just gave you a thumbs down. Feel normal now? ;-)

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  23. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    iMP (1,031) Says:
    February 4th, 2013 at 9:10 am

    Although, someone might say its a bit ‘gay’ for a manly man like Aaron Klein to be making wedding cakes anyway, but i couldn’t possibly comment. What is a ‘gay cake’ anyway?

    A cake used to celebrate a gay wedding clearly. However, it is nothing new to “compel” people by way of Federal law that requires one to obey certain regulations when conducting business. This includes not putting a “no coloreds” sign on your shop window. Now it also apparently means not discriminating against homosexuals in the offering of commercial public services.

    If this business owner has a right to express his religious views through his business then a KKK member also has a right to run a business discriminating against blacks. The reality is that one’s conscience does not trump the law and any discussion about this business owners rights must start from the reality that those rights are already limited by law.

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  24. magsta (311 comments) says:

    pq….. Paul Scott pretty common monicker…. found 13 such on NZ Google. Actually, no great desire to find you (unless you’re the Hereford stud breeder). I just want to find out how to get onto this site without my pseudonym.

    I agree that pseudonyms on blogs is a curly problem.
    Although, I personally want to appear on blogs under my own name, I can see that it may be a problem for some other folks in this small country of ours. I am retired and no longer give a stuff whether I hold contrary views to other folks. But when careers are at stake, it pays to be careful about what you commit to print.
    Writing under my own name forces me to think clearly about what I want to say and to consider whether I really would say such things in a public forum.

    Maggy wassilieff

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  25. Andrei (2,532 comments) says:

    Why shouldn’t a business owner be able to put up a “no coloreds” sign Weihana?

    From a business perspective it would be a dumb thing to do, not only would he lose business from those he barred but also from those such as myself and no doubt yourself who disapproving of his attitudes would take our custom elsewhere.

    Thats the thing really we should be able to express our disapproval of other people and not have it dictated to us by the Government using the heavy hand of the State, through the courts and police what we find permitted to find acceptable or unacceptable

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  26. Peter (1,664 comments) says:

    Mana Party leader Hone Harawira is not ruling out protesting when Prime Minister John Key arrives at Waitangi, saying it’s one of a number of opportunities Maori have on the day to get their views across.

    I don’t think there is anyone in NZ who doesn’t know what Harawira’s views are as we’ve had them rammed down our throats for decades.

    Like a stuck record….

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  27. dime (9,664 comments) says:

    PQ – Being sensible isnt being a coward.

    Edwards is a paid lefty. Its easy for him to use his real name. Hell, his name is his “brand”.

    However, some of us run businesses and deal with a lot of people. We deal with hundreds of businesses. Its safe to assume some of them are staffed by angry lefties. Do I really need that aggravation in my life? blog comments costing me money?

    Also, I cant exactly tell you all hooker stories under my real name. Its just too dodgy!

    If we had to use our real names, my comments would be toned down. Hell, we would all start to sound like PG. Imagine that. People would choose death by fire rather than read a blog populated by 3000 pete georges.

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  28. wreck1080 (3,807 comments) says:

    I see the exchange rate today basically hit the highest it has ever been (except maybe a 1 day spike back in 2007).

    If this is sustained or continued, expect to see many more job losses.

    But, they are only in dying industries anyway, so doesn’t matter so much as they are unsustainable.

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  29. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Lance (1,680) Says:
    February 4th, 2013 at 8:22 am

    Excellent, sports stars are immune from DIC unlike us mere mortals.

    Elaycee (3,263) Says:
    February 4th, 2013 at 8:30 am

    Lance 8.22am.

    Yup – an appalling decision by the Judge. So much for having to front and accept the consequences of actions.

    Perhaps the Crown will appeal?

    Appalling how though? Because you disagree with it or because it is contrary to law? What basis is there for appeal?

    s107 states:

    “The court must not discharge an offender without conviction unless the court is satisfied that the direct and indirect consequences of a conviction would be out of all proportion to the gravity of the offence.”

    The LTSA website states that drunk driving as a first offence carries a penalty of up to three months in prison, or up to a $4500 fine and 6 months or more disqualification or suspension of license. By way of comparison possession of Cannabis carries up to three months in prison or a fine not exceeding $500. Arguably the offending in each case is comparable as indicated by the prescribed punishments.

    The argument, therefore, that this woman’s entire career might be ruined by a conviction would seem to be not unprecedented and I’m pretty sure there are plenty of people other than sports stars who have received a discharge without conviction for possession of cannabis as a first offence.

    Regardless of common sentiment that drunk driving is a “serious” offence, the reality is that it is not particularly serious when compared with possession of a class C drug which most people would consider relatively minor. Indeed, at least in the case of Cannabis, Police are able to issue a warning. So it doesn’t seem particularly surprising that a judge has weighed the impacts of a conviction on this woman’s career and found the effect to be out of proportion to the offending. It is not an untenable argument in light of precedent and the prescribed punishments for the offence.

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  30. KiwiGreg (3,218 comments) says:

    @ wreck there is no reason not to expect it to continue to head upwards (or more accurately for other currencies to continue to go down). Every major country we trade with (notable exception being Australia, which is also suffering the same hollowing out affect) is devaluing their currency through explicit or implicit QE.

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  31. wreck1080 (3,807 comments) says:

    Well, we are heading up against aussie too — i expect this is now to do with the kiwi strengthening rather than other economies doing poorly.

    Especially now that foreign sharemarkets are outperforming which implies their economies are doing ok.

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  32. Liberty (252 comments) says:

    Mallard is making a vain attempt to build up Shearer. Comparing Shearer with Kirk
    Sure both were nice chaps. This also applied to Lange, Moore, Palmer ,Rowling and Goff
    Apart from being out of their depth. They all suffered the same handicap.
    There underlings were conniving rats.

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  33. Chthoniid (2,029 comments) says:

    I agree with @dime

    For many people, a pseudonym is prudent rather than an act of cowardice. It is a way to fence-off family and business life from your identity on the web. I think it only becomes cowardice when you use it as a shield for gratuitous, abusive attacks on others.

    I’ve experienced over 2 years of stalking by a deranged woman, who has systematically tried to destroy my career and family. It has left significant wounds. I see nothing wrong with people protecting their private-world from the web by using pseudonyms.

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  34. dime (9,664 comments) says:

    “I’ve experienced over 2 years of stalking by a deranged woman”

    bet the sex was awesome though :D

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  35. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    It might upset the ultra sensitive davinci, but so be it: http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2013/02/03/264031.html

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  36. Lance (2,561 comments) says:

    Air NZ might be having that “Oh Shit” feeling

    http://gizmodo.com/5981165/it-could-be-years-before-dreamliners-are-back-in-the-air

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  37. dime (9,664 comments) says:

    lance – i find gizmodo to be a bunch of negative hacks. they dont like boeing or anyone who produces military equipment.

    id bet money the 787′s wont be grounded for “years”.

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  38. PaulL (5,983 comments) says:

    Polls dreadful for Gillard today, Mumble (at the Australian) thinks that the carbon tax will be a problem for Abbott in the campaign. I’m thinking that he needs to change how he plays it – he needs to stop talking about the carbon tax per se, and start talking about what’s going to happen to the carbon tax and the budget when the price starts tracking the EU price at about $4 instead of the current $23-$24.

    The problem here is that the government “compensated” households at around $24 per ton, so if the price plummets without that compensation being changed there is a big budget black hole.

    http://technpol.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/mumble-the-carbon-tax-is-boring/

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  39. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    My, my … Prince Phillip, who once opined that if reincarnated he should like to return as a deadly virus to cull the human population, has invited David Bellamy, a climate skeptic shunned by BBC, to speak at Buckingham Palace. The old consort must be getting forgetful.

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  40. Lance (2,561 comments) says:

    @dime
    And you know this how?
    Boeing fucked up, this is not a vast left wing conspiracy. It’s freaking observation.

    Possibly not years but this is not going to be fixed anytime soon. The airliners were in service with multiple problems and that is a serious sin in the industry, especially fires.
    Airbus problems were largely sorted out before entering service. The later engine issues were around lubrication and the stringers were sorted promptly but was not a critical issue.

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  41. PaulL (5,983 comments) says:

    And no way the dreamliners will be grounded for years. They look to be fundamentally safe, they’re having some wiring problems. Surely that cannot be too hard to sort out.

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  42. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    PaulL – yes, the Gillards’ Chickens Coming Home to Roost derivatives are off the charts :)

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  43. Pete George (23,326 comments) says:

    John Armstrong described Green housing policy as a dog. Make that a dog in thinly veiled socialist clothing. It is obvious by what they call it – Home for Life.

    Greens want to guarantee people who rent a Home for Life.

    And no matter what your income or ability to finance property ownership Greens want you to be able to ‘own’ a good Home for Life, apparently with no requirement to actually pay for it. And with the Government doing the borrowing and risk taking for you.

    And so far I have seen no estimates of how much more the government would have to borrow to enable this. This needs a real world spotlight.

    Green housing dog of a policy

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  44. Lance (2,561 comments) says:

    @PaulL

    They are catching fire in flight !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The batteries are faulty and they can’t find out why, the windscreens are cracking (3 times in rapid succession on new planes) and a number of less serious faults like oil leaks, computer bugs (showing brakes have failed) etc.

    The batteries issue is serious as they have to change something and have it re-approved. Not an easy or short time interval task unless the rules are changed for Boeing.
    That might happen and the 787′s might be in the air again sooner.

    This sort of cost benefit trade off has lead to many deaths in the past.

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  45. dime (9,664 comments) says:

    lance – YEARS? total bullshit. some hack asks a nobody analyst and they run with YEARS.

    i doubt the US govt would allow one of their departments to ground something this important for years. even if they put them back in the sky with issues, they will be back in the sky.

    lets see what the stock price does over the next 24 hours. should give a good indication.

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  46. Griff (6,995 comments) says:

    The batteries burning will be a fault in either power reticulation or in the controlling software/hardware not an imposable fix.
    li ion batters are not the sort of thing you put jumper leads to they have very complex charging needs compared to lead acid. It surprises me that the full data from the batteries monitors was not mentioned as available for perusal.
    Its the first airliner to use this technology. its just teething problems in a very complex system.

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  47. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Madness. Like rust, PC never sleeps: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/02/03/washington-state-considers-gender-neutral-language-bill/

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  48. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    “I’ve experienced over 2 years of stalking by a deranged woman”

    C’mon, dime. You didn’t do Miss Dim, did you? :D

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  49. Lance (2,561 comments) says:

    @Griff
    The problem is Boeing told the FAA we have tested the Li-ion batteries and they are safe… honest! This was not the normal procedure, it was a fast track. We are talking aviation level type approval here.
    FAA will be really really pissed off. If one of these planes go down due to these batteries the repercussions would be enormous.

    However govt intervention will be in motion as we speak.

    The problem is now the space allowed for them is too small to fit older technologies. A real fuck up.
    The word is Boeing are proposing a super duper fire proof case as the fix. That’ll go down like a shit sandwich.

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  50. Andrei (2,532 comments) says:

    Manolo

    Crispin Thurlow, a sociolinguist and associate professor of language and communication at the University of Washington-Bothell, said the project was admirable.
    He said that as language evolves, such efforts are more than symbolic.
    Changing words can change what we think about the world around us,” he said. “These tiny moments accrue and become big movements.”

    Language evolving? Or being pushed in directions to move society towards goals favoured by the likes of Crispin Thurlow

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  51. Griff (6,995 comments) says:

    Watch out for you laptop it may spontaneously ignite.
    They will not go away from li ion.
    New Cessna come complete with them.
    so to will new cars by the end of the decade.
    1 third the weight for a given capacity and the ability to safely discharge and charge at many times there amp hour rating along with long life a charge efficiency around 98% and no memory effects will ensure universal adoption .

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  52. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Words of art. People don’t understand the ambiguity and as a consequence they don’t realize that they’ve been sold down the river. For example, “person” can refer so someone who has an obligation in some matter (eg personal jurisdiction).

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  53. Pete George (23,326 comments) says:

    It turns out Eddie’s smear on Fran Mold was a load of cobblers, direct from bootmaker central.

    Not surprisingly John Armstrong refutes Eddie’s accusation there was any collusion in constructing his column.

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  54. Lance (2,561 comments) says:

    @Griff
    Laptops did ignite in the early days of Li-Ion
    Many houses and premises have burned down due to Li-ion batteries. A model helicopter battery burnt out a car restoration garage was a doco on NZ TV recently. Snip a cut on Li-Ion pack and the fucker bursts into flames. Bear Grylls showed how to light a fire with your cellphone battery- charged or not by simply puncturing it.

    Li-ion technology is becoming more prevalent and the protection getting better.

    But the aerospace environment is a tough environment to operate in. Vibrations, pressure changes, temperature etc are all extremes. It was important to get this right. And Boeing didn’t.

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  55. lilman (928 comments) says:

    At sevens ,designated driver on saturday ,saw 5 fights all young ,all Maori or PI.
    3 were amongst themselves as their Aroha overflowed and they choked, hit, swore and slapped their Wahine around before turning on the people who tried to intervene ,in every case white young guys and girls who happened to be passing.
    One very serious assault,a king hit as we were leaving on a young guy who was asleep standing to one side by himself, hit by a young ape about 150 kgs, actually got police to arrest him only to be told I was FUCKING NARK AND A WHITE CUNT WHOS GUNNA GET HIS.
    The last was on train when 2 actual brothers fought over a seat.
    ROll on WAITANGI DAY.

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  56. Colville (2,186 comments) says:

    lilman..that would actually be funny if it wasnt so true.

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  57. iMP (2,344 comments) says:

    Re Gay Cakes: I agree with you Weihana (9:22 am) but Andrei (9:42 am) is more right. I guess it comes down to context and WHAT the State compels us to do. We give it power to regulate us and bind us by laws; so the debate is over whether law should be enacted to compel us to agree with homosexual marriage.

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  58. marcw (238 comments) says:

    re: 787 batteries. The reason there is no information from the faulty battery monitors is a fundamental design flaw – the monitor was within the battery housing compartment, and was destroyed in the fire. There’s never been a “perfect” new design for a plane yet. Li-ion batteries indeed are here to stay, and will have initial problems, as there were when NiMH batteries were first introduced in aviation. Problem is, these Li batteries are several more levels of consequence higher when they go wrong. I have no doubt that the problems will be sorted, and it won’t take “years either. AirBus have Li-ion batteries in the design for their new A350 incidentally, so will no doubt benefit from having the technology sorted out for them before they go in service.

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  59. Scott Chris (5,974 comments) says:

    Regarding the safety issues surrounding the dreamliners – nothing that won’t get fixed. Seems to be part of rival airline manufacturing companies’ marketing strategies to ‘scare up’ consumers. Seen it happen a lot over the years.

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  60. Colville (2,186 comments) says:

    The Fan Club …
    4 February 2013 at 12:32 pm
    I have no idea what the fuck you’re on about. Let’s get back to the main point: the majority of commenters here really are loons.

    From the Shearer thread at the Stranded…hard to argue with really…. :-)

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  61. Lance (2,561 comments) says:

    @Chris Scott

    Ah no… scare tactics are when one aircraft builder is having development problems and the other side leaks or blathers on about it.
    These aircraft are in service.
    I expect teething problems (cracked windshields, oil leaks, software glitches) but this battery problem is way beyond that.
    Yes the problem will get fixed, the issue I have is that short cuts were made. Bad engineering processes were allowed to happen, approval processes were fast tracked and it has bitten Boeing on the bum.

    The popcorn part is who will have more clout, the FAA (really pissed off) or the politicians wanting Boeing back on track ASAP.

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  62. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Andrei (1,744) Says:
    February 4th, 2013 at 9:42 am

    Why shouldn’t a business owner be able to put up a “no coloreds” sign Weihana?

    From a business perspective it would be a dumb thing to do, not only would he lose business from those he barred but also from those such as myself and no doubt yourself who disapproving of his attitudes would take our custom elsewhere.

    Thats the thing really we should be able to express our disapproval of other people and not have it dictated to us by the Government using the heavy hand of the State, through the courts and police what we find permitted to find acceptable or unacceptable

    First, you ARE permitted to express your disapproval. The mere fact that government regulates or prohibits an act that contains an expressive component does not necessarily imply that you have no right to express yourself.

    My personal view is that regulation of commerce in this way is a justified limitation on your freedom as a business owner. First, the primary purpose of commerce is to trade and profit. It is not primarily a means for expression although it does have the ability to do so. Thus, I don’t agree there is a substantive loss of freedom of expression by regulating business in this way. On the other hand, churches are primarily expressive in nature and so their freedom to practice in accordance with their beliefs is more significant IMO and any restriction on their speech should have to satisfy a higher threshold.

    Secondly, I believe it is justified by the fact that permitting such business practices creates social tension and harms those minorities that face this sort of discrimination. Our society should not be one in which certain groups are excluded, where blacks sit in a particular part of the bus, or where homosexual couples book two rooms in a motel when really they only need one.

    Furthermore, whether or not the market puts such a business out of business is of little significance. You seem to be implying that if a business discriminates yet survives in the market then they have a right to continue to exist in this manner. I disagree. If society, through its ability to boycott a business, can silence discrimination in the offering of commercial services then I see no ethical reason why society cannot do the same through legislation.

    I find no moral good or ethical justification in tolerating or condoning such discrimination. I do not agree business owners have an inherent right to discriminate. I do not agree such discrimination constitutes “freedom” in any meaningful sense of the word. In providing commercial services to society they are in a social contract with that society and thankfully part of the contract means that such discrimination is not tolerated.

    Moreover, I should point out that the purpose of my post was not to argue why “no coloreds” signs aren’t acceptable. The point was to show that the two issues are the same because it is my belief that most people will not require an explanation of why “no coloreds” signs are unacceptable.

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  63. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    iMP (1,033) Says:
    February 4th, 2013 at 12:41 pm

    …so the debate is over whether law should be enacted to compel us to agree with homosexual marriage.

    Anti-discrimination laws do not compel you to agree with homosexual marriage. They compel you to not discriminate in the offering of commercial services.

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  64. Elaycee (4,332 comments) says:

    The Independent Police Complaints Authority continues to lurch further and further into the realm of protecting the victim rather than those we charge with upholding the Law:

    The Police chased a speeding motorcyclist who crashes and hurts himself. Well, boo ferkin’ hoo.

    In 2010, motorcyclist Dion Batt, who was 34 years old at the time, drove through a 50kmh zone in an Auckland suburb at 100kmh, while he was on P, the Independent Police Conduct Authority said.

    Sounds like he deserved to be chased / arrested / taken off the streets / charged.

    During this chase, Batt reached a speed of about 120kmh in a 50kmh zone, and crashed.

    Why should there be any criticism levelled against the Police for trying to stop a P fuelled lawbreaking moron from hurting someone else? Whilst the chase tactics can (and should) be improved, the reality is that this moron was the victim of his own stupidity.

    Indeed, Batt has nominated himself for a Darwin Award.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8260533/Police-rapped-after-chase-crash

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  65. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Elaycee (3,265) Says:
    February 4th, 2013 at 2:24 pm

    Why should there be any criticism levelled against the Police for trying to stop a P fuelled lawbreaking moron from hurting someone else? Whilst the chase tactics can (and should) be improved, the reality is that this moron was the victim of his own stupidity.

    The article you cite does not seem to suggest otherwise. It says:

    An investigation by the authority into the chase, released today, found several events that occurred during the chase did not adhere to police policy.

    In addition, the authority, which oversees police conduct, found the chase had poor command and control, and was “plagued” with communication issues.

    The criticism doesn’t appear to be because they chased him, nor that they are at fault for what this guy did to himself. The criticism appears to be that the chase did not conform to policy and that this was a result of communication errors. Recommendations were made to review and improve policy. The police accepted it and indicated an intention to do so. I’m not sure what the fuss is? If the police conduct a poor operation they should be prepared for some self-examination to see how they can improve. They seem quite willing to do so. They have a responsibility to public safety and ensuring they execute these chases as best as possible will hopefully minimize the risk these events pose. It doesn’t mean that the police are somehow responsible for what other people choose to do.

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  66. iMP (2,344 comments) says:

    Weihana. “Anti-discrimination laws do not compel you to agree with homosexual marriage. They compel you to not discriminate in the offering of commercial services.”

    If you disagree with homosexual “marriage” on religious or moral grounds, how can you offer same a commercial wedding service like wedding photography or wedding cakes? Maybe the minister should just man up too? and Christian surgeons who elect not to conduct abortions. Conscientious Objectors should train soldiers? and Vegetarians offer BBQ grille in their Vegan restaurant?

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  67. Colville (2,186 comments) says:

    Elaycee and Weihana, my reading of it was that the chase had been called off as dangerous when another cop picked up the chase and the guy crashed. So the Cops didnt play by the rules in the playbook.
    Penalty . No touchdown, Repeat the play.
    As you say boo fucking hoo but the P head could have crashed into you or I and that would have sucked.
    Cops could of just gone to the guys place and waited for him. 12 cars and a helicopter involved in the chase shit a cop could have sat in his driveway for a month for the cost of that lot.

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  68. hj (6,732 comments) says:

    Pete George (Little Tobacco) said:

    “John Armstrong described Green housing policy as a dog”.
    ………….
    Dear Leader Dunne (Big Tobacco) called a capital gains tax “an envy tax”: what a sick bugger he is; not because he is against a capital gains tax so much but because there is great inequality and advantage based on property ownership and he is just chirping a tune to effect support from well cashed up and self-serving rent seekers.

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  69. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    The arrogant judge who let the Gisborne sportswoman off without conviction has a history of doing so. If you’re ever caught over the limit, ask for this guy: Judge Graham Hubble.

    * He thought it okay to let a drunk driver off his 12th conviction because of a problem with contacting a lawyer immediately because of a phone issue. (I don’t see how this changes the fact of his drinking and driving, but yep, he gets off on some technicality.)

    * Some guy headbutts a cop: Judge Hubble said that after looking into Chandra’s background he was “not such a bad person after all”. Discharged without conviction.

    * And then this guy:
    A 22-year-old who, within days of ploughing his car through a fence and then into a ditch, was caught driving over the limit a second time will serve his sentence at home.

    * What about being so pissed, you piss into the breathalyser? Not just a bit pissed, but 1137mcg/L – you also crash into someone’s house. Surely that would get you a decent sentence, right?

    He turned to see Thompson, still seated, urinating into a box of breath screening tubes. Thompson continued urinating despite repeated demands to stop. The 301 contaminated tubes had to be destroyed. Thompson admitted drinking and driving but was unable to offer any explanation. He was taken to Christchurch for detoxification. Judge Graham Hubble disqualified Thompson from driving for nine months on the excess breath-alcohol charge and a concurrent three months on the careless use count. He was fined $200 for wilful damage.

    * Okay, well how is Hubble about granting bail.
    Say someone smashes parking meters and steals the money. About $13,000.
    Police oppose bail. Bail is granted.

    Immediately after being released, he does it again. 10 more machines. Arrested again. Appears in court. Police oppose bail.

    “It looks as though you’ve gone out and attacked another three machines and taken more money,” the judge said.
    Bail is granted.

    For fuck’s sake. When will these idiot judges learn? They must know that the public hates the fact that they make the law powerless to protect us from the scum of society. Why name suppression and discharge without conviction for this sportswoman? Why should her dangerous actions not cause her consequence??

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  70. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    iMP,

    If you disagree with homosexual “marriage” on religious or moral grounds, how can you offer same a commercial wedding service like wedding photography or wedding cakes?

    You discover that profit and income outweigh a medieval sense of morality. Or you don’t. How does a person who objects to the minimum wage on “moral grounds” run a business? Who cares?

    Maybe the minister should just man up too?

    A religious organization can reasonably by regarded as different from commercial public services and exclusion from the former does not entail the same social ills that segregated commercial services entails IMHO. Moreover, as religious organizations are primarily defined by opinion and religious belief protection of their right to freedom of expression should be to a higher standard.

    and Christian surgeons who elect not to conduct abortions.

    An individual employee is not the same as a business and choosing not to do something someone disagrees with is not the same as doing it for some, but not for others.

    Conscientious Objectors should train soldiers?

    Prohibiting a particular act is not the same thing as indentured servitude.

    and Vegetarians offer BBQ grille in their Vegan restaurant?

    Offering a restricted range of products and/or services is not the same as offering it to some, but not to others.

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  71. Elaycee (4,332 comments) says:

    @Colville:

    So the Cops didnt play by the rules in the playbook.

    You seem to forget that the P fuelled moron wasn’t playing by ‘the rules’ either… and if the cops had backed off and waited for him at home (as you suggest) the same P fuelled moron could have taken someone out on the way there. After all, the original offence was that he was spotted doing 100kph in a 50 kph area. And that was the action that prompted a Police response. Cause and effect and all that….

    Yes, Police communication should not have been spread across three different channels. Yes, other things could have been done better. But the IPCA would have better served the public by pointing out the obvious: the long term injuries were self inflicted and a direct result of the moron racing off at speed from a legitimate Police instruction to ‘Stop’…

    The only ‘sympathy’ I have is for the poor people that have to take care of this moron for the rest of his natural life.

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  72. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    I think anti-gayism is a genetic response, it has nothing to do with religion but the safety of the races, which compels me to laugh and offer a sieg heil!. It looks like i will have to start a church, find lots of pretty white girls and go off into the bush and build a new city to await the call.I will have to consult Brian T on how to go about it.

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  73. Colville (2,186 comments) says:

    Elaycee…the cops play book is designed to deal with P fueled dickheads and in this case they didnt follow (their own) playbook.
    Cops cars are now equipped with auto number plate readers so they knew who he was about 2 seconds after the first car saw him.

    I believe that fleeing a cop should get automatic jail time just to be clear :-)

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  74. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    Elaycee (3,267) Says:
    February 4th, 2013 at 6:14 pm

    Bikers regularly jump over the speed limit, i know a casual harly rider who has only 25 demerits left on his licence. All his stops has been for speeds in excess of 50 kms.

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  75. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    tristanb (1,018) Says:
    February 4th, 2013 at 5:57 pm

    The arrogant judge who let the Gisborne sportswoman off without conviction has a history of doing so. If you’re ever caught over the limit, ask for this guy: Judge Graham Hubble.

    * He thought it okay to let a drunk driver off his 12th conviction because of a problem with contacting a lawyer immediately because of a phone issue.

    The “phone issue” was that it was a speaker phone rather than one which afforded privacy. The judge did not think it “okay” that someone gets off a charge on a technicality, but that is what the law is: a big bunch of technicalities. THat’s how it works. It is a process that obeys rules. The system only works on the premise that the law is to be followed and not ignored when inconvenient. At the moment you have a right to consult a lawyer, you have a right to privacy for such consultation. Should this be done away with?

    Some guy headbutts a cop…

    “Police did not oppose the discharge without conviction.”

    The cops must be as bad as this rogue judge.

    I can’t really be bothered looking at the other stories. Certainly judges don’t always get it right, but it doesn’t seem productive to me for people to criticize judges by a random selection of news articles that in no way show that the law hasn’t been followed. And at the end of the day it is meaningless to criticize a judge unless you are prepared to show why their legal reasoning is incorrect. They are not there to enforce their own version of the law and to impose their personal opinions on society. Any discretion they exercise must be within the confines of the law. Therefore any criticism of judges should attempt to show how their decisions deviate from the law. Yet time and again this isn’t done presumably because most people don’t care how the law works nor what the law is. But if they are ever in trouble you can bet they will be screaming for their lawyer like everyone else.

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  76. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Elaycee,

    But the IPCA would have better served the public by pointing out the obvious: the long term injuries were self inflicted and a direct result of the moron racing off at speed from a legitimate Police instruction to ‘Stop’…

    Who is this an issue to other than yourself? They better serve the public by investigating how the police can do their job more effectively.

    You seem to forget that the P fuelled moron wasn’t playing by ‘the rules’ either

    ALL criminals are by definition ignoring the rules. Police rules are designed with rule-breakers in mind. This isn’t about police breaking the rules to catch a rule breaker, this is about police executing the operation poorly. The police are happy to accept these findings and in my view shows a very professional attitude. Criticism doesn’t always have to be a bad thing when everyone is just trying to make things better in any future situation. I don’t see the big fuss.

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  77. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    Oh my… it’s raining HARD in Wellington right now. My tomatoes are happy.

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  78. nasska (10,910 comments) says:

    An Aussie truckie walks into an outback cafe’ with a full-grown emu behind him.

    The waitress asks them for their orders.

    The truckie says, ‘A hamburger, chips and a coke,’ and turns to the emu, ‘What’s yours?’

    ‘Sounds great, I’ll have the same,’ says the emu.

    A short time later the waitress returns with the order ‘That will be $9.40 please,’ and he reaches into his pocket and pulls out the exact change and pays.

    The next day, the man and the emu come again and he says, ‘A hamburger, chips and a coke.’

    The emu says, ‘ Sounds great, I’ll have the same.’

    Again the truckie reaches into his pocket and pays with exact change.

    This becomes routine until the two enter again. ‘The usual?’ asks the waitress.

    ‘No, it’s Friday night, so I’ll have a steak, baked potato and a salad,’ says the man..

    ‘ Same for me,’ says the emu.

    Shortly the waitress brings the order and says, ‘That will be $32.60.’

    Once again the man pulls the exact change out of his pocket and places it on the table.

    The waitress cannot hold back her curiosity any longer. ‘Excuse me mate, how do you manage to always pull the exact change from your pocket every time?’

    ‘Well, love’ says the truckie, ‘a few years ago, I was cleaning out the back shed, and found an old lamp. When I cleaned it, a Genie appeared and offered me two wishes.

    My first wish was that if I ever had to pay for anything, I would just put my hand in my pocket and the right amount of money would always be there.’

    ‘That’s brilliant!’ says the waitress. ‘Most people would ask for a million dollars or something, but you’ll always be as rich as you want, for as long as you live!’

    ‘That’s right. Whether it’s a gallon of milk or a Rolls Royce, the exact money is always there.’ says the man.

    Still curious the waitress asks, ‘What’s with the bloody emu?’

    The truckie pauses, sighs, and answers, ‘My second wish was for a tall bird with a big arse and long legs, who agrees with everything I say.’

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  79. Viking2 (11,275 comments) says:

    krazykiwi (8,708) Says:
    February 4th, 2013 at 7:21 pm

    Oh my… it’s raining HARD in Wellington right now. My tomatoes are happy.
    ———————-

    Blight on the way.
    Had a nice sprinkle in the BOP. Not too little and not too much. Maybe a bit more tonight.
    Lawns will green up.

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  80. Viking2 (11,275 comments) says:

    Right on time for that train wreck which is Waitangi Day.

    http://treatygate.wordpress.com/

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  81. Puzzled in Ekatahuna (340 comments) says:

    Police are taking legal advice on whether they will appeal a court decision to discharge a sportswoman on drink-driving charges.

    In the Gisborne District Court last week, Judge Graham Hubble discharged the woman without conviction and granted her permanent name suppression after she appeared on a charge of driving with almost twice the legal alcohol limit.

    Police will now be seeking advice from Crown Law on whether an appeal against the decision will be lodged.

    Police have also confirmed the woman is not well known nationally and does not play a mainstream sport.

    No further comment will be made from police regarding this matter until an appeal decision is made.
    http://www.police.govt.nz/news/release/34174.html

    “Her lawyer stitched up a story as to how a conviction would prevent her from competing overseas”
    One wonders then if she in fact will ever play overseas.

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  82. nasska (10,910 comments) says:

    V2

    I suspect that ‘krazykiwi’ is using his influence with “The Big Guy Upstairs” to torture me.

    Rain here for today has totalled 8mm.

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  83. Griff (6,995 comments) says:

    A dribble in Auckland enough to evaporate in a couple of days.
    The tree ferns are always a good indicator .
    The size and position of dieing ferns gives a proxy measurement for drought.
    Both in the severity and frequency.

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  84. Viking2 (11,275 comments) says:

    Good rain here right now. Hopefully it will keep up until the morning.

    http://www.metvuw.com/radar/radar.php?location=nz

    http://www.jma.go.jp/en/gms/largec.html?area=4&element=0&mode=UTC

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  85. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    nasska –

    I suspect that ‘krazykiwi’ is using his influence with “The Big Guy Upstairs” to torture me.

    Yeah, I ordered pestilence and got precipitation. Grrr. Must try harder :)

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  86. itstricky (1,696 comments) says:

    Viking2

    Why even give that nut job Ansell time. Jeees, he’s worse than Brian Tamaki spitting out his deranged associations. He’s the as much of a reason that Waitangi Day is the way it is as Hone, just, obviously, in the inverse direction.

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  87. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    itstricky – I’ve met Ansell several times, and he doesn’t come across as a nut job. On the contrary, he comes across as considered, more knowledgable on, and widely read about the history of the Treaty than most NZers.

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  88. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    Why don’t the media show the latest unemployment figures as well as forecasted figures?

    They don’t want to show it do they.

    Frak we’ve become so corporatized the blind fail to see the leaves falling but they still believe and it’s hard to wake them as no one wants to see what’s coming.

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  89. itstricky (1,696 comments) says:

    krazykiwi

    He may very well be considered and knowledgable but he clearly does not have a humanistic bone in his body and does not use his knowledge in a way that would pro-actively help. As such, he is the antithesis of the radicals on the other side and I’d consider him just as worthy of derision.

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  90. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    You guys are lucky there is only one treaty, Look at Canada and what they have to go by and it isn’t one it’s many.

    There’s something strange going on up there, Their killing native Indian women in droves, some sort of serial killer groups targeting them as the police won’t or are lax when it has to do with native affairs. It’s the Canadians themselves and the crazy french who thought they could go it alone with out the Indian support. guess what the Indians told them, we don’t have a treaty with you or France. He he.

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  91. Griff (6,995 comments) says:

    Pro actively help translates as do it the pc way.
    Paul Moon is one of the most honest commentators on the history of the treaty.
    Ansel’s focus on mythical Celts and unsigned treaty’s is a distraction.
    There is no doubt that maori Knowingly signed away sovereignty.

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  92. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    Thank god the Yanks didn’t get a hold here.

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  93. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    You guys are lucky there is only one treaty

    Yes it’s a shame no-one can, apparently, agree on what it means though, isn’t it.

    And that some politicians seem to imagine that while this state of affairs exists it’s a very good idea to put some vague wording like “the principles of the treaty” into legislation, that the courts, in particular the SC, is then free to interpret as they wish, with a Chief Justice who just happens to have a background in Maori advocacy.

    Ah well. What an “accident.” Nothing designed about that, at all, was there. Of course not, it was just a bunch of stuff that just happened. Everyone knows that.

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  94. itstricky (1,696 comments) says:

    Pro actively help translates as do it the pc way.

    Because it makes so much more sense for people to shout their over-stated opinions at the top of their lungs at each other?

    Incidentally, doing it the “non-PC” way just means I don’t care enough about anything to actually put any thought into what I’m saying or doing in the public forum – I just want to shoot my mouth off and then not have to take any responsbility for what happens. Which is what he does. And there’s no difference between what he does and what Hone does. Except I actually think Hone is better at it than him. Probably because he’s been doing it his whole life, right?

    Paul Moon is one of the most honest commentators on the history of the treaty.
    Ansel’s focus on mythical Celts and unsigned treaty’s is a distraction.

    Azeraph is quite right, Thank god the Yanks didn’t get a hold here!

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  95. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    Stop moaning, it hasn’t slowed the country down has it? Do you see any slowing? Are you honestly threatened by anything from it? or is it in everyone’s minds only?

    You’re only truly threatened if any of your own personal money is tied into it.

    I would be surprised if the gay marriage bill didn’t go through but if it didn’t then i would be happy that we have not jumped on the kool aid with the rest of the world, dopamine junkies. Eventually it will though.

    The world is changing faster than we realize.

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  96. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    Stop moaning, it hasn’t slowed the country down has it?

    Yes.

    Do you see any slowing?

    Yes

    Are you honestly threatened by anything from it?

    Yes

    or is it in everyone’s minds only?

    No

    You’re only truly threatened if any of your own personal money is tied into it.

    Er, the threats are not just financial they’re also social. If you don’t see that some people who benefit from the treaty have turned it into a gravytrain industry with no benefits to anyone but themselves, you don’t understand this country in any way.

    Such behaviour and the tolerance of it thereof also raises expectations, hence you eventually get, as we now have, gajillions of idiot pointless ceremonies and events springing up all over the place, as exemplified by David’s comment above. This is just the tip of the bullshit, and the more it happens the more people wake up and smell the roses. This is dangerous because on the one side you have a group of people who have become accustomed to having their every mental whim catered to by a stupid fat cash cow and on the other side you have the people who pay for the stupid fat cash cow gradually realising they’re being taken for a ride by the aforesaid group.

    Given human behaviour is what it is, what pray tell Az, do you think is eventually going to happen?

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  97. Griff (6,995 comments) says:

    Paul moon on the treaty
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/maori/news/article.cfm?c_id=252&objectid=10861947
    My thoughtless opinion includes the time I have spent reading the published history.
    The accounts of the people there on the ground reveal far more than the modern “Story” around the treaty.
    To use the debate on our constitution to inflict a non democratic minority having veto or any more say over the future of new Zealand than its citizens goes against the democratic principle of one man one vote. This principle overrides any who seek excuse to impose something else open us.

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  98. itstricky (1,696 comments) says:

    Griff,

    I was not implying that your reading wasn’t valid or was thoughtless. I was implying, again, that Ansell is a nut job and there’s a bunch of people obvious enamoured with him who actually listen to what he says like the Gospel. These people are the antithesis of the radicals on the other side whom everyone is sick of seeing on Waitangi Day so why replace them with another bunch of chanting outliers?

    Personally I don’t have a problem with the day, or the protests – it’s just natural. And, as Azeraph says, I’m not threatened by it. I imagine a good deal of Ansell’s audience have a great deal of fear, uncertaintly and doubt themselves so it’s easy for him to feed off that.

    Interesting article by Paul Moon, incidentally. Perhaps try this one featuring the very same, from this morning, for size which suggests that all the fear, incertainty and doubt is just public perception and perhaps if everyone got their tail out of their legs there’d be something to be happy about:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/maori/news/article.cfm?c_id=252&objectid=10863469

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  99. Elaycee (4,332 comments) says:

    Follow up to an earlier discussion where a P fuelled moron did a runner from the Police / raced away at over twice the legal speed limit / crashed his bike into a truck and yet the subsequent IPCA saw fit to criticise the Police for doing their job…

    Overnight the moron admitted that his injuries were of his own doing and that the Police had done nothing wrong.

    Another case of cause and effect. If this moron had followed the lawful and reasonable instruction by the Police to ‘Stop’, the resulting accident / long term injuries would not have occurred. Even he can understand that part….

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10863479

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  100. Griff (6,995 comments) says:

    Do you think the end is in site?
    It is not the treaty settlements that is causing the decline in support its the cry for the treaty principles to be enshrined into our constitution
    these principles are not defined and change due to judicial activism It states in the published principles that maori have no right to hydro generation and do not have the right to stop the government from governing This is being ignored by activist judges to forward their separatist agenda.
    One man one vote is not negotiable Our nation is ruled by democracy not tribal alliance

    De boris says”That’s reality. We’re not at the point that everybody has a good sense of indigenous rights and Treaty rights.
    His idea of treaty rights is not contained in the document it is contained in the wants on maori to take control of as much as they can grab.
    read the official history and background of the treaty and as Paul points out it is a load of bullshit

    Ie http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/treaty/the-treaty-in-brief
    Growing numbers of British migrants arrived in New Zealand in the late 1830s, and there were plans for extensive settlement. Around this time there were large-scale land transactions with Māori, unruly behavior
    No its the nasty settlers that are at fault by some settlers and signs that the French were interested in annexing New Zealand. The British government was initially unwilling to act, but it eventually realized that annexing the country could protect Māori, regulate British subjects and secure commercial interests.

    Where is the fact that 40.000 maori had been slaughtered by the fallow man that entire tribes had been wiped out that over half of Maori where displace refugees and slaves. That the problem the treaty solved was this warfare and the treaty was more about bringing the maori under law than bringing the settles to heel. The oft repeated lawlessness is projected from the missionary’s that had a biased view of reality as they still do.
    This bullshit permeates all discussion around the treaty

    Post colonial cringe is trying to rewrite our history. and our future

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  101. itstricky (1,696 comments) says:

    Whoa, there was actually a lot of FUD in there. Don’t be scared -: no-one’s going to come a rip your vote away, your river, or your hydro-electric dam. (sorry, that was meant to be 50% of your hydro-electric dam)

    Then, the end is in sight, yes. Most normal people ignore what is happening on the day anyway. And those that protest have a right to do so and it is healthy and natural (although physically attacking the PM of the day or other dignitaries isn’t)

    I’m sorry but I really don’t understand any of the supposed relationship between the supposed “real” meaning of the treaty and “suppose” biased missionaries views. It all sounds a bit like Ansell’s speil to me. There’s a million different views of history but in a situation like this you don’t gain anything by looking back at it (just look at any number of countries at perpetual war around the globe because of greivances over history). You gain an appreciation of where you’ve come from.

    Paul Moon points out that there are some popular myths about the treaty and that maybe some people will use this Waitangi Day to learn more about the events behind the slogans, and acquaint themselves with the intriguing history that sprouts from the Treaty but I think we are a long way from Post colonial cringe is trying to rewrite our history. and our future – that sounds very odd, pessimistic outlook to me.

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  102. Griff (6,995 comments) says:

    I have explored NZ early history though reading the accounts of the times as well as some modern historians work. I dont bother with revisionist propaganda. from Belich et al it has no value when examining the times as it only reflects the present not the past.
    The treaty as told by official NZ govt site.also the official teaching aids
    New Zealand history on line.
    Is a load of PC codswallop
    As Paul; points out most of its content around the treaty is pure fantasy.
    The most important thing from a maori perspective was the genocide that had been waging for the last thirty years.
    Genocide that was still happening in 1840.
    2000 settlers and one boat load of frogs was not a reason for 60000 well armed experienced warriors to consent to a foreign power taking sovereignty.
    Imposing a system of law that stopped the genocide was far more of a motivation for maori to sign.

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  103. cha (3,856 comments) says:

    I appears that this guy really did cleave the bad guys head open with an axe.

    http://youtu.be/Jj4EWAhMTb4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ7g1uUYe9M

    http://www.fresnobee.com/2013/02/02/3158070/man-who-rammed-his-car-into-pge.html

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  104. Griff (6,995 comments) says:

    Maori had developed a culture where warfare generated by resources competition was its default state.
    Very few regions were not dominated by pa, fortified defensive positions. Maintained at considerable labor for a society that was mostly based on hunter gathering These pa would have been for defense in local as well as inter tribal conflict.

    The importation of guns allowed the balance of power to tilt at first to the northern maori They made great use of this new form of warfare wiping out entire tribes and displacing thousands. As other tribes armed the balance was eventually restored The Utu was not. Most of those chiefs signing the treaty would have been very aware that their traditions demanded of them to revenge the carnage at some future stage and/or face the tribes that to retain mana had to take Utu.

    Signing away the chieftainship of the whole country stopped the endless rounds of fighting. The importation of easily grown food allowed maori to jump from semi hunter gathering to farming in a generation. the imposition of the rule of law limited the warfare and it slowly died out over the next 50 years. Again modern revisionist history focuses on only the European maori conflict when it talks of the New Zealand wars later. These too had elements of the earlier maori society driving them not just the settler maori conflict.

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