General Debate 9 February 2013

February 9th, 2013 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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101 Responses to “General Debate 9 February 2013”

  1. big bruv (13,293 comments) says:

    Message to Mr Neville Key.

    When Julia asks you to take some of the refugees please tell her to go and get stuffed. We do not want them here, we cannot afford them and they are not welcome.

    The last thing this nation needs is more bludgers.

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  2. Scott Chris (5,880 comments) says:

    More evidence that prohibition doesn’t work:

    “Despite the increased focus across Government, law enforcement and industry to minimise methamphetamine related harms, there does not seem to be a discernible change in the drug’s domestic popularity and availability,” according to the National Strategic Assessment paper.

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  3. Pete George (22,842 comments) says:

    There’s been an interesting discussion elsewhere on binding referenda. The majority view was that for general use in a democracy there are signifcant flaws, including…

    - Time it takes to run a referendum
    - Cost and logistics of referenda, especially if there are many
    - Referendum questions need to be simple but that often can’t properly address complex questions.
    - Referenda can be hijacked by special interest groups who mislead with contradictory questions – like the smacking referendum
    - Referenda can be hijacked by political groups or parties – like the asset sales referendum
    - Referenda risk being knee jerk reactions to topical events
    - The majority can overule minority interests – it would be possible to unfairly target specific ethnic, political or religious groups

    Any more cons? What about pros?

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  4. Nostalgia-NZ (4,911 comments) says:

    Botha was robbed. Kiwis in Aussie are being infected by ‘cheating’ disease.

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  5. Scott Chris (5,880 comments) says:

    Very odd decision to cut SBW vs Botha by two rounds. But to give Williams credit, Botha is no mug and Williams did look pretty good in the earlier rounds. The guy really is very talented.

    Brick bats to those booing at the end of the fight. Wtf did you expect ya mugs.

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  6. Viking2 (11,129 comments) says:

    All about Auckland in one billboard.

    http://screencast.com/t/tNpq65IWtX

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  7. Viking2 (11,129 comments) says:

    Bruv, heard that on the radio just now.
    Key the trader will trade sometghing for it. Maybe better terms for Kiwi’s in aussie. If he did then maybe I could live with a few asylum seekers provided that’s where they go. Perhaps a temporary passport that allows them to stay long enough to get their citiznship and then leave for Australia.
    Of course Aussie would need to pay their costs.
    I have no doubt that Key will do a deal. Wether it is good for NZ will be another thing. Rather think that his creeping socialist behavoir will mean that it won’t be.

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  8. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    The majority can overule minority interests…

    Pete George, they have a name for that. Democracy

    One of the problems with our society is putting minority concerns ahead of the majority. This means that most people are not represented or that most people have their concerns put secondary to vocal minority groups.

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  9. CharlieBrown (905 comments) says:

    Scott Chris – So you are saying we should have expected a fixed result? SBW would have had his beans handed to him had the fight gone to 12 rounds. Getting KO’d is excatly what SBW needed, he needs to eat some humble pie. People hate SBW for his attitude and ethics, he gets reprimanded for pulling a sicky at the crusaders, drink drives, converted to a religion that holds a paedophile as a prophet, he literally had the potential of having a warrant issued for his arrest after the way he handled the bull dogs. He changes teams as much as the Green party says something stupid. He pretty much had his AB shirt handed to him to justify the rediculous money the nzru paid for him to switch codes.

    The same crowd investigating doping and match fixing in Aus should also launch a claim into this fight. Imagine the shame on SBW’s face if they investigated as it would certainly show a case of match fixing.

    His belt can sit next to his unearned AB jersey.

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  10. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    What Kea said, in spades. The way NZ is being run if you’re not Maori, a refugee, a gay, Muslim, a beneficiary or part of some other vocal minority group then your vote doesn’t count for shit. Only the contents of your wallet matter so they can be “redistributed” to the moaner of the month.

    Bring on binding referenda.

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  11. Keeping Stock (10,100 comments) says:

    It’ll be interesting to see if the Australian Crime Commission takes a look at last night’s result. Williams can’t hide now; if he is to have any credibility as a fighter, they have to put him up against someone who is fit and who has a strong track record. Beating up beneficiaries and portly South Africans will no longer cut it.

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  12. Keeping Stock (10,100 comments) says:

    Mark Sainsbury wouldn’t be human if he didn’t suppress a chuckle at Seven Sharp’s plunging ratings; down 40% from opening night in less than a week, and 40% down on Sainsbury’s average over 2012. And the TVNZ wallah that axed him is jumping ship.

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2013/02/not-best-first-week.html

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  13. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    Pete George, they have a name for that. Democracy

    @Kea,

    Have you not heard of the concept of the tyranny of the majority?

    And there I was [mistakenly] thinking you believed in liberty…

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  14. Colville (2,081 comments) says:

    charliebrown. I got the rigged result I expected. I didnt expect them to do it like that tho, a bit blatant. I thought Botha would have been paid to lie down late in the game. SBW would have been knocked on his arse for sure had it gone on. I thought it strange that he was set up to do 12 rounds with a boxer of Bothas ability, afterall he had only had 5 fights?
    He seemed to have done well in rounds 1- 8 then took a couple in the head and lost his bottle. I dont think he will fight again. The 7′s are enough of a excuse/distraction for him to give fighting away.

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  15. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    bhudson, yes I have heard of the term. What is your point?

    The only alternative is put the concerns of a few, ahead of the many. If you can cater to everyone, then all well and good, but that is not always possible and choices must be made. Minorities do not occupy any moral high ground or position and deserve no special consideration.

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  16. Sonny Blount (1,845 comments) says:

    Majoritarianism can be a very dangerous thing.

    Milton Friedman describes the issue quite well.

    If 2 of us want to wear a red tie to dinner and 1 of us wants to wear a blue tie then:

    A free market is when we all wear whichever colour it is we individually choose.

    Democracy is when we all wear red ties because that is the majority decision.

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  17. CharlieBrown (905 comments) says:

    Colville – yeah it brasses me off, that guy needs some humble pie, it might turn him into a half decent person, but now his ego is going to get even bigger. But oh well, I’m sure he will hit 30 and end up being a washed up former sports person with no money as his manager will certainly scam him out of it.

    Its people like SBW that are making me teach my kids that sports people aren’t to be looked up to and be considered role models.

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  18. CharlieBrown (905 comments) says:

    Sonny Blount – Another analogy for democracy is “Two lions and a lamb voting over whats for dinner”.

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  19. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Sonny Blount (1,696) Says:
    February 9th, 2013 at 8:49 am
    Majoritarianism can be a very dangerous thing.

    Milton Friedman describes the issue quite well.

    If 2 of us want to wear a red tie to dinner and 1 of us wants to wear a blue tie then:

    A free market is when we all wear whichever colour it is we individually choose.

    Democracy is when we all wear red ties because that is the majority decision.

    I do not care much for the pronouncements of pompous academics and prefer to think for myself.

    The example you use is what happens in socialist minority ruled countries, not in a free market. Everyone is forced to wear red, by the state, to appease a minority.

    That is not simply a theory but an observation of reality.

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  20. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    Sonny Blount

    Tyranny of the minority isn’t that crash hot either. The free market example you provided works great so long as those who prefer red ties aren’t expected to change colour, pay for all three ties & fund the dinner as well.

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  21. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    So I gather you people speaking out against democracy, have another system in mind ? How about telling us what that is guys ?

    The only alternative is minority rule, by its very definition. So the question is, what minority rules ?

    I pick White Europeans. They make up about 11% of the worlds population and that modest number is in decline around the world. I think that minority should be calling the shots.

    A further minority group, within that minority, are White Supremacists. No doubt you will agree we should cater to their concerns too ?

    If not why?

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  22. Redbaiter (7,623 comments) says:

    “Democracy is when we all wear red ties because that is the majority decision.”

    Yep, and so America’s founders set up a Constitutional Republic and Kea and most of the other commies on this site don’t even have the brains to understand their motives, and want to pull what the founders built down and replace it with something so blatantly poisonous as a socialist democracy.

    This utter failure to understand political concepts can in turn be sheeted home to the utter failure of the education system, an entity that is under the control and direction of the very social democrats who will eventually destroy every freedom we have ever enjoyed.

    People who support socialist democracies and the resulting tyranny of the majority are uneducated fools whose thinking capacity has been totally crippled by propagandists posing as educators.

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  23. Nostalgia-NZ (4,911 comments) says:

    If Seven Sharp wanted to show their stupidity readily they did so last night by failing to cover Paul Holmes funeral. They’re trying to be too clever, there seems to be some tension between the 2 males hosts looking to outshine the other. But it’s real dumb not to have realised that acknowledging they were trying to fill Paul Holmes shoes and paying respect to him for that would have connected with a wide audience.

    Botha knew that SBW was toast, he also knew it was 12 rounds until the start of the tenth where SBW just looked to hold and clinch. He might have looked relatively good at the opening but he was moving into the right hand from early on. There are real doubts now that he can take a punch, Botha should get a rematch but I suspect SBW will do a runner.

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  24. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    yes I have heard of the term.

    Quite. Your response would seem to indicate, however, that you don’t understand it.

    The only alternative is put the concerns of a few, ahead of the many.

    That is extremely superficial. Liberty would hold that i. it is not some binary condition where there is only a single alternative, but, more importantly, ii. liberty both requires and allows the concerns of the few to exist alongside those of the many.

    Simple rule by numbers is destructive of liberty – of everyone’s freedom. That, in itself, warns of the dangers of binding reerenda

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  25. kowtow (7,626 comments) says:

    “Refugees/asylum seekers?”

    No,they are illegal immigrants. Australia should deport them and we should not take a single one.

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  26. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    A further minority group, within that minority, are White Supremacists. No doubt you will agree we should cater to their concerns too ?

    And their right to freedom of speech – no matter how objectionable some/many/most of us might find their views – is protected under, for instance, the Constitution of the United States.

    We could learn much from America

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  27. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    More snow is set to cloak the UK amidst warnings of freezing temperatures and gale force winds, less than a fortnight after blizzard conditions brought disruption to schools, airports and traffic networks.

    Up to 10cm of snow will settle in places on Tuesday afternoon and many Britons will be buffeted with 60mph to 70mph gusts.

    Amber “be prepared” warnings for snow have been issued by the Met Office for many parts of Scotland, including the Highlands and Western Isles, Strathclyde, the south west, Lothian and Borders and Central, Tayside and Fife areas.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/02/05/uk-weather-forecast-snow-blizzards-britain_n_2620984.html

    Yet another freezing (normal) winter strikes the UK.

    Now for the “science” :)

    —————————————————————————————————————————

    From The Independent on 20 March 2000 : “Snowfalls are now just a thing of the past”. According to Dr David Viner, a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia, within a few years winter snowfall will become “a very rare and exciting event”.

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  28. Longknives (4,456 comments) says:

    I think boxing has hit a new low (and Christ there have been a few!)

    This from Khoder Nasser “He won, and he won easily. Full stop. They can protest all they want,” (What a fucking idiot)

    Sonny Bill can beat his chest and proclaim himself the “Greatest since Ali” all he wants- the reality is everyone in Australasia is laughing at his pitiful, gutless display this morning…

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  29. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    Longknives,

    It would have been more energy efficient if Nasser had just said “We won. You lost. Eat that.”

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  30. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    In Seven sharp , there are just too many presenters..Presenters gassing amongst themselves has never been entertaining..A few comments now and then but anything more is just distraction..Nothing in these comments is ever half as interesting to the audience as it appears to be to the presenters themselves . Ultimately it is insulting to the audience.
    I hope the Aussie who set this all up is enjoying his new job back in Brissie!

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  31. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    and Kea and most of the other commies

    Red, get a grip ! :)

    bhudson, how about having a go at answering my questions and the points I raise at 9:01am ?

    Your post is a confusion of contradictory points and PC drivel. I have already said we should try and cater for everyone (the majority by definition) but sometimes choices must be made.

    The thing is that you assume that your minority view will be the one represented. Think again.

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  32. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    I have already said we should try and cater for everyone (the majority by definition) but sometimes choices must be made

    Which really reinforces that you have no fundamental grasp of what the ‘tyranny of the majority’ means at all.

    Or liberty, for that matter.

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  33. Paulus (2,502 comments) says:

    I am increasingly concerned that the Treaty of Waitangi is called our founding document.
    The Treaty of Waitangi is bound within the following legislation long before our so called “founding document”.

    Magna Carta 1215
    Habeus Corpus 1679
    Petition of Rights 1628
    Bill of Rights 1689
    Act of Settlement 1701
    The originals of all of these are available.
    None of these have changed since they were enacted, so they must be considered our “founding documents”.

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  34. Keeping Stock (10,100 comments) says:

    joana said

    In Seven sharp , there are just too many presenters..Presenters gassing amongst themselves has never been entertaining..

    Agreed; about three presenters too many…

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  35. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    bhudson, you have zero credibility, as you have not engaged the points I have raised. I think you are simply opposed to democracy, with the idea that people like you should be in charge.

    Either you believe in democracy (majority rule) or you do not. It really is that simple. No amount of quoting lefty academics and their waffling emissions is going to obscure that simple fact.

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  36. Reid (15,947 comments) says:

    Seven Duh’s ratings plummet, losing 200,000 over this first week.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10864287

    Despite the decline, Television New Zealand says its new-look show is the future of current affairs, and that it is too early to pay attention to ratings.

    “We are giving viewers what they’ve told us they want to see. It simply takes time – nothing can be extrapolated from one week in,” said TVNZ head of news and current affairs Ross Dagan.

    “We are in this for the long haul. Talk to us in six months about what the ratings are and we will happily have that conversation.”

    I’ll bet in six months time when someone does talk to them about their ratings they won’t be very happy to discuss them.

    As to their focus group sessions with viewers who “told them what they wanted to see” they probably ended up something like this, from all indications.

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  37. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Paulus, The treaty is not a binding document and was considered to be of no effect for most of its existence. The modern grievance industry is largely given power by judicial activism and left wing feminist politicians.

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  38. Jack5 (4,589 comments) says:

    Good article on Mainzeal collapse by Brian Gaynor in the Herald today.

    Ex PM Jenny Shipley was on the board, and was linked with Richina Pacific for a long time.

    Are our ex-politicians dumb or just naive to get involved with these outfits?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10864282

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  39. Redbaiter (7,623 comments) says:

    “We are giving viewers what they’ve told us they want to see. It simply takes time – nothing can be extrapolated from one week in,” said TVNZ head of news and current affairs Ross Dagan.

    What a laff.

    Most viewers of TV One are so gape jawed and braindead they’d stare transfixedly at a blank screen at seven o clock and not notice the difference.

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  40. Redbaiter (7,623 comments) says:

    “I am increasingly concerned that the Treaty of Waitangi is called our founding document.”

    Keep voting National or Labour (our revolving door totalitarian socialist political bloc) and it won’t change.

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  41. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Redbaiter. So is it “voting” that your opposed to ?

    It seems so, because when I spoke out in support of democracy and majority rule, you called me a “commie” !

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  42. CharlieBrown (905 comments) says:

    Parliamentary demoracy… hmmmm, the nazi’s were democratically voted into a minority government with the nationalists. Democracy is mob rule, and we are indoctrinated into believing the right to vote is the most important liberty there is.

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  43. Reid (15,947 comments) says:

    I am increasingly concerned that the Treaty of Waitangi is called our founding document.

    So am I Paulus and notice all political sides are doing this, and most journos. This is standard propaganda when you’re introducing something new and controversial that you plan to later unveil as part of some official structure. You simply treat the concept as if it has always existed in the way you want to embed it, by using language when you talk about it, that labels it as a no-brainer mere recognition of an underlying reality that is simply now merely being recognised. In other words, you deliberately obfuscate the actual reality which is that, in fact, the concept is not something that has always existed like this but is in fact something brand new and different. The reason they never use language that portrays it like that is because a concept packaged as the latter will be resisted, ironically by the very same useful idiots that lap up the propaganda designed to make them swallow it.

    It’s very clever, but also very insidious and it works very well. It’s sad when people on both sides care so little about the people who elect them or for their professional ethics as journalists that they undertake such underhand actions over something as fundamental as the constitution. But there were are, that’s what they’re doing, the whole lot of them.

    You would have thought that a founding document which has two versions and which no-one can interpret and which is consequently left open to the courts to constantly re-define would have no place in our constitution simply because of those factors. But apparently in our politically correct brave new world, such vaguery is neither here not there, the matter has already been determined, by people much, much wiser than you and I…

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  44. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    Either you believe in democracy (majority rule) or you do not

    Every utterance merely shows that you are opposed to liberty, Kea.

    Others can determine the matter of credibility. What I find incredible is that you might think that your extremely superficial ‘points’ have some gravitas. You could well be the average voter that Winston Churchill had in mind.

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  45. Reid (15,947 comments) says:

    Are our ex-politicians dumb or just naive to get involved with these outfits?

    Jack this is because Shipley has made herself a very rewarding new life by interfacing herself into the Sino-NZ business circles. The Chinese would greatly value the prestige value of an ex-PM on their boards, this is how they look at life. You see the same thing in the way they wear their wealth on their sleeves, it’s all part of the same cultural trait, this thing they call “face.”

    The main shareholder in Mainzeal clearly doesn’t want to be held liable for the losses arising from the leaky-building projects Mainzeal has constructed, so he’s cutting his losses and leaving the taxpayer to pick up the rest. That’s what this receivership is about.

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  46. Fletch (6,025 comments) says:

    It’s all coming apart re: the attack on the Benghazi consulate on 9/11/12

    New testimony from Panetta that he talked to Obama once about an hour after the attack started and never heard anything back from him the whole 8 hour duration of the attack. So, Obama knew it was happening but neither he nor anyone else from the Whitehouse called the Dept of Defense to ask what was happening, who is being deployed (as it turns out, nobody), or what was being done to save American lives.

    LINK

    Unbelievable really.

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  47. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    bhudson, clearly my points are not so superficial that you are able to understand them.

    But I will try again.

    If we are faced with a situation where both majority and minority interests can not be catered for simultaneously, I say the majority interests must be given preference.

    If you disagree, you can not claim to care about people or democracy. You are advocating disadvantaging the majority, but give no reasons as to why you think that is appropriate.

    How do you propose we cater to minorities that want homos executed and non whites given a lower standard of citizenship ? How do YOU decide what minority interests are catered for and which are not ? You need to bring your own ideas to their logical conclusion and not just parrot a bunch of academic liberal nonsense. You are neither well informed or astute in your comments so drop the pretense.

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  48. Reid (15,947 comments) says:

    So, Obama knew it was happening but neither he nor anyone else from the Whitehouse called the Dept of Defense to ask what was happening, who is being deployed (as it turns out, nobody), or what was being done to save American lives.

    Fletch it’s much worse than that. The US general in charge of AfriCom, who resigned alongside Petreus, resigned because he was preparing to go against specific orders. See the attack was surveilled by a drone from start to finish. The US had special forces less than an hour away, but they were prevented from being used by order, from Obama. This general was preparing to countermand those orders and he was relieved of his command by his number two.

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  49. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    @Kea,

    You are not the protector of right. Nor of democracy. You are attempting, through superficial logic, to justify ‘mob rule.’

    Which also then allows for rule by ignorance – the will of the majority being right, even when founded in ignorance and prejudice. That power of ‘democracy’ [by your definition, being the execution of the will of the majority] being the right to justify the oppression of others based on things such as race or sex (as was the case in Western democracies for many decades.)

    How do you propose we cater to minorities that want homos executed and non whites given a lower standard of citizenship ?

    Aside from the fact that these sorts of ills are, in the main, historically justified as being will of the fanchised majority, not pandering to a minority, the fact that you even try to use them merely exposes the fact that you don’t actually know what liberty means. Liberty is not a threat to “the majority”; it is, by its very definition, not a threat to anyone else.

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  50. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    Unreasonable search #756

    NYPD places full body scanners on the streets

    Another contribution from Mayor Dirtbag Bloomberg

    A partnership made in hell: New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, the NYPD and the Department of Homeland Security

    Across the country, people are begging for new ways to prevent another Sandy Hook incident from happening again. Now, the New York City Police Department has sprung into action and are planning on using the latest technology called “Terahertz Imaging Detection,” the device scans people who are suspected of caring a firearm without their knowledge. Danny Panzella from Truth Squad TV weighs in.

    http://www.brasschecktv.com/videos/the-surveillance-state/unreasonable-search-756.html

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  51. Jack5 (4,589 comments) says:

    Charlie Brown posted at 9.54:

    hmmmm, the nazi’s were democratically voted into a minority government with the nationalists…

    And they were elected under MMP.

    And we copied the system plus the 5 per cent threshold the West Germans introduced after World War 2, when they regained self-government

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  52. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    bhudson (3,206) Says:
    February 9th, 2013 at 10:34 am

    Liberty is not a threat to “the majority”; it is, by its very definition, not a threat to anyone else.


    http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/liberty_1?q=liberty

    “the freedom to live as you wish or go where you want”

    Does this include airports? I feel like snorting some coke and walking through customs nude grasping my handgun (literally not metaphorically). Please, nobody get in the way of my “liberty”. :)

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  53. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Which also then allows for rule by ignorance – the will of the majority being right

    bhudson, no I am not suggesting mob rule or trampling minorities.

    But strawman arguments aside, how do we decide who will dictate to the “ignorant” masses you speak of ?

    Surprise me by giving an honest answer…

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  54. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    @Weihana,

    At long as its your own handgun no one can accuse you of “taking a liberty” :-)

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  55. Fletch (6,025 comments) says:

    According to Rep. Maxine Waters, the President has a huge database on everyone that’s never been done before.

    “The President has put in place an organization with the kind of database that no one has ever seen before in life,” Representative Maxine Waters told Roland Martin on Monday. “That’s going to be very, very powerful,” Waters said. “That database will have information about everything on every individual on ways that it’s never been done before and whoever runs for President on the Democratic ticket has to deal with that. They’re going to go down with that database and the concerns of those people because they can’t get around it. And he’s [President Obama] been very smart. It’s very powerful what he’s leaving in place.” – Maxine Waters

    Video link –

    http://landing.newsinc.com/shared/video.html?freewheel=69016&sitesection=breitbartprivate&VID=24333146

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  56. Harriet (4,519 comments) says:

    Guns don’t kill – females do!

    No male American will ever hand in their firearms while female americans have the right to abortion! :cool:

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  57. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    @Kea,

    I didn’t claim the masses to be ignorant. But, that slight aside, I vote for representative democracy. As Curchill so eloquently put it:

    It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

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  58. kowtow (7,626 comments) says:

    You ask about our ex politicians and their involvemnets………..

    ….now there’s a topic for a “current affairs” or investigative journalist.

    Chinese and Maori business interests,foreign political influences etc all well looked after. Where’s the taxpayers’ and citizens interests?

    It seems the only honest journalist out there is Investigate’s ian Wishart. And the so called “mainstream” can disregard and ignore him because of his Christian inputs.

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  59. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Which also then allows for rule by ignorance – the will of the majority being right, even when founded in ignorance and prejudice.

    Yes you did claim the masses are ignorant and you ignored by question.

    You are also wrong to assume that certain (you won’t tell us who) people are more intelligent than a collective group.

    Here is a bit about collective intelligence:

    Interestingly, when we did this work, we thought that there might be such a factor, but that it would really just be essentially the intelligence of the individual people in the group. What we found was that the average and the maximum intelligence of the individual group members was correlated, but only moderately correlated, with the collective intelligence of the group as a whole.

    If it’s not just putting a bunch of smart people in a group that makes the group smart, what is it?

    http://edge.org/conversation/collective-intelligence

    It seems that large groups are not the ignorant intolerant masses you claim should not have their way.

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  60. Viking2 (11,129 comments) says:

    Sub-contractors remove scaffolding from Mainzeal site

    Saturday, 9, Feb, 2013 11:35AM

    There have been tense moments this morning at a central Auckland building site, run by the collapsed construction firm Mainzeal.

    Mainzeal had been working on the multi-story leaking apartment building, until receivers moved in this week.

    The work halted, and security guards were posted around the building.

    This morning around 30 workers from a scaffolding company pushed past the guards and began taking down the scaffolding and carting it away in trucks.

    They refused to confirm if they were authorised to do so.

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  61. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    It would be a very brave security guard who would take on 30 brawny scaffolders.

    He would leave it to the bespectacled bean counters from the receivers office! :)

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  62. Manolo (13,368 comments) says:

    With profuse apologies to the bleeding heart davinci: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/8282958/Sex-attackers-victim-may-visit-him-in-prison

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  63. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    “It seems the only honest journalist out there is Investigate’s ian Wishart.”

    Second that

    What journo writes as much as Wishart

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  64. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    For those who love watching the left turn on its own.

    Lighthearted Saturday afternoon viewing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95nXEE0dATQ

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  65. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    Silly John. They will still vote for labour.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8282972/NZ-Aust-asylum-seekers-deal

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  66. Yvette (2,691 comments) says:

    Reid – But apparently in our politically correct brave new world, such vaguery is neither here not there, the matter has already been determined, by people much, much wiser than you and I…

    And I fear, Reid, that when their ‘work’ is divulged we will find the Constitution Committee will have embedded this fucking awful bi-ligually ambiguous shoddy real estate agreement into our new Constitution, and we would be better off – as before – in not having one.
    At the same time they are likely to change the flag and the name of the country, both along similar PC lines but greatly biarsed toward the nation’s First People.

    See how fast Pual Holmes was catapulted into the Greatest Broadcaster New Zealand has ever had – the Mother of the Nation disappearing in the glare of Paul’s sainthood. And those at TVNZ who did that weren’t even trying I think.
    God save us from the Constitution Committee, who will be very trying

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  67. wat dabney (3,671 comments) says:

    Let me clear something up for some people: We don’t want democracy, what we want is individual freedom.

    Democracy, by its nature, is the political system most likely to deliver governments which largely respect individual liberty. However, democracy unchecked by respect for individual rights is simply legalised mob rule.

    If we are faced with a situation where both majority and minority interests can not be catered for simultaneously, I say the majority interests must be given preference.

    Then you’d be completely wrong. Even if the majority is 99% of the population.

    The correct answer is “I say that individual rights must be given preference.”

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  68. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    wat dabney. I agree with the concept of individual rights. However this is not Noddy Land and sometimes choices have to be made. Majority rule does not mean individual or minority rights are ignored. In fact we have a majority ruled country in NZ and minorities get a disproportionate amount of representation.

    Of course I never said minority rights, or individual rights, should be ignored, did I …

    You are doing the same thing as my slippery friend bhudson and setting up strawmen by attributing views to me that I do not have, nor have I expressed.

    Maybe you will tell us who decides if not the majority ? But I you will probably do as bhudson did and ignore the difficult questions that expose the flaws in your logic.

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  69. Colville (2,081 comments) says:

    It would be a very brave security guard who would take on 30 brawny scaffolders.

    Your average rigger would knock SBW on his arse !

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  70. Manolo (13,368 comments) says:

    Sure, NZ needs the asylum seekers like a hole in the head.
    Neville Key caves in…again. What a surprise!

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  71. Pete George (22,842 comments) says:

    Sonny Bill Williams vs Frans Botha weigh-in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkJhoHgBzh8&feature=youtu.be&a

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  72. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    A loverly evening, off to Eden Park to clap like a loon when Ross Taylor walks out to bat

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  73. Rodders (1,790 comments) says:

    For those who love watching the left turn on its own

    I’m sorry but how many Americans would give a hoot what that Israel-hating blowhard Pilcher says?

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  74. wat dabney (3,671 comments) says:

    Kea,

    Decides what?

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  75. wreck1080 (3,730 comments) says:

    sbw fight — what a joke – they ended it when botha was about to kick sbw’s ass.

    It is like ending a football match when the local side gets ahead.

    SBW comes out of this looking like a cheat.

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  76. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10864302

    Never worked out why folk (on slightly above average wages) can’t afford to buy their own lunches! :)

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  77. Rodders (1,790 comments) says:

    Oops, I should have typed Pilger, not Pilcher (serves me right for reading two threads at once) :(

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  78. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    I’m having a nice fillet of New Zealand horse for dinner tonight. Far better tucker than all those poor Pom’s are getting! :)

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  79. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    wat dabney (2,315) Says:
    February 9th, 2013 at 5:38 pm
    Kea,

    Decides what?

    If the majority of people can not decide things, then who do you think should ?

    I am referring to those situations where not all people can have their way, as that is not always possible.

    Do you agree with bhudson that the majority are ignorant masses who will not respect the rights of minorities and someone (he refused to say who) should be in control of those masses ?

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  80. Reid (15,947 comments) says:

    Sub-contractors remove scaffolding from Mainzeal site

    Saturday, 9, Feb, 2013 11:35AM

    There have been tense moments this morning at a central Auckland building site, run by the collapsed construction firm Mainzeal.

    It’d be a shame if it was the site of the Chow Bros building. That’d be weally, weally sad.

    Awwwwwwwww.

    And I fear, Reid, that when their ‘work’ is divulged we will find the Constitution Committee will have embedded this fucking awful bi-lingually ambiguous shoddy real estate agreement into our new Constitution, and we would be better off – as before – in not having one.

    Yvette would you mind if I painted the bold words on my protest sign when I stand in Parliament the night they announce this is their final conclusion? Would that be OK?

    I’m having a nice fillet of New Zealand horse for dinner tonight.

    Is it especially gristly Johnboy? They’re the best ones :)

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  81. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    Indeed.

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/nyx05zi9230ghzj/What%20harm.jpg

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  82. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    “So,” the bloke at the bar asked, “Are you still up for a cock up your arse later?”

    His wife looked shocked, “I can’t believe you just asked me that in front of the whole pub!”

    “Really?” he replied. “I can’t believe you thought I was talking to you. Come on Ron.. Let’s get out of here.”

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  83. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    But I you will probably do as bhudson did and ignore the difficult questions that expose the flaws in your logic.

    @Kea,

    You have no logic. Merely fatuous arguments designed to try to justify tyranny of the majority as somehow compatible with freedom.

    Do you agree with bhudson that the majority are ignorant masses who will not respect the rights of minorities and someone (he refused to say who) should be in control of those masses ?

    I said no such thing (as one of your earlier quote demonstrated – “even if” somehow eluding you.) Either you struggle with comprehension, or twisting words is your forte. Either way, you misrepresent what was said.

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  84. Reid (15,947 comments) says:

    http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/do-wall-street-insiders-expect-something-really-big-to-happen-very-soon

    Also

    Today, 58 global central banks belong to the BIS, and it has far more power over how the U.S. economy (or any other economy for that matter) will perform over the course of the next year than any politician does.

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  85. Longknives (4,456 comments) says:

    Sonny Bill you are a fraud and a joke.

    ” Australian newspaper’s report that ANBF vice-president Alan Moore, a ringside judge for the bout, had no idea it had been shortened to 10 rounds.
    “When the ring announcer said over the loud speaker that it was the last round, that was the first we (judges) knew of any change,” Moore was quoted as saying.
    “Any international title fight is meant to be fought over 12 three-minute rounds. I have no idea what happened.”

    Pathetic. This is the most laughable thing I have seen in over 25 years of watching boxing…

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  86. marcw (227 comments) says:

    I’m so hungry I could eat a lasagne… :)

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  87. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    Nah…..The Spaghetti Bologneighs is a better bet. :)

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  88. marcw (227 comments) says:

    After all these years we finally understand why horseradish sauce has been considered the ideal accompaniment to beef.

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  89. wat dabney (3,671 comments) says:

    If the majority of people can not decide things, then who do you think should ?

    I am referring to those situations where not all people can have their way, as that is not always possible.

    Again, if individual rights are affected then the views of the majority are irrelevent.

    Of course there are always grey areas, but that principle is the starting point and covers most situations.

    Do you agree with bhudson that the majority are ignorant masses who will not respect the rights of minorities and someone (he refused to say who) should be in control of those masses ?

    Seeing as he didn’t say any such thing I wonder what you are trying to achieve here.

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  90. Longknives (4,456 comments) says:

    A few of the horses Longknives backed at Te Rapa today might be heading for Findus Lasagna….

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  91. thedavincimode (6,532 comments) says:

    Would anyone mind if Mark Richardson spent the rest of the England tour “commentating” at the bottom of a well where we couldn’t hear him?

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  92. Snarkle (118 comments) says:

    The debate about democracy goes all the way back (at least) to Plato’s “The Republic”, where he imagines an ideal state ruled by a group of philosophers (which I think in Plato’s day “scientist” was included in the term “philosopher”). Communist China, interestingly enough, is a modern equivalent of this, being run by 9 men some of whom are very well qualified indeed in science. Whether this is better or worse than what we’ve got is certainly debatable; but I don’t think we can say mainland China is without problems of governance.
    As far as boxing is concerned, can anyone verify this story: Don King was taking a seat ringside at some fight he had promoted, and someone in the audience behind him shouted: “Don’t spoil it for us Don by telling us how it ends”

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  93. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    @Snarkle,

    The Don King story is so good it deserves to be true

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  94. Nookin (3,035 comments) says:

    Thedavincimode:

    Only if you put most of the blackcaps and the coach down there with him.

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  95. axeman (251 comments) says:

    One more climate alarmist retracts

    2004: Warmist scientist Peter Cox says global warming will destroy Amazonian rainforests:
    DR PETER COX (Hadley Centre, Met Office): … If we don’t do anything by about twenty thirty we could have a global warming of exceeding two degrees… 2040 it could be four degrees warmer, the climate change could have led to big drying particularly in the Amazon Basin, that would make the forest unsustainable, we’d expect the forest to catch fire probably, turn into savannah and maybe ultimately even desert if it gets really really dry as our model suggests.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/dimming_trans.shtml

    2013: Warmist scientist Peter Cox says global warming will help Amazonian rainforests:
    The Amazon rainforest is less vulnerable to die off because of global warming than widely believed because the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide also acts as an airborne fertilizer, a study showed on Wednesday.

    The boost to growth from CO2, the main gas from burning fossil fuels blamed for causing climate change, was likely to exceed damaging effects of rising temperatures this century such as drought, it said.

    “I am no longer so worried about a catastrophic die-back due to CO2-induced climate change,” Professor Peter Cox of the University of Exeter in England told Reuters of the study he led in the journal Nature. “In that sense it’s good news.”…

    “CO2 fertilization will beat the negative effect of climate change so that forests will continue to accumulate carbon throughout the 21st century,” Cox said of the findings with other British-based researchers.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/06/us-climate-amazon-idUSBRE91510O20130206

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  96. Rowan (1,782 comments) says:

    Not a very good first up peformance by the black caps in the opening T20. They sucked (a bit of an understatement)!

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  97. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    if individual rights are affected then the views of the majority are irrelevent.

    A remarkable statement, but at least you had the guts to admit your despicable view.

    It seems that if some (minority) right is affected, then the majority are ” irrelevent”. Wow !

    And you should not take people for fools, bhudson contempt for the masses came across crystal clear and was clearly expressed. Just like you, he thinks minorities hold some sort of higher ground and the rights of the majority are “irrelevent” because they are ignorant. I am still waiting to hear who decides these things, if not the “irrelevant” ignorant masses ?

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  98. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Do you agree with bhudson that the majority are ignorant masses who will not respect the rights of minorities and someone (he refused to say who) should be in control of those masses ?

    I said no such thing

    bhudson, You said.

    “Which also then allows for rule by ignorance – the will of the majority being right, even when founded in ignorance and prejudice.”

    So back to my question… if the masses don’t get to “rule” who does ?

    How will we choose who rules ? ( using your example of the ignorant prejudiced majority, we clearly can not let “them” decide for themselves, now can we)

    And please, don’t further erode your remaining credibility by making up silly stories that I am all for trampling the rights of precious minorities. I never said that and specifically have said I am not. That is a red hearing your throwing up to remove focus from your elitist thinking that only a selected few should decide for the rest of us,( least we become ignorant and prejudiced.)

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  99. axeman (251 comments) says:

    Hey Kea, Viner isn’t the only climate scientist goofball in Europe who predicted snow would become rare. Professor Mojib Latif of Germany also made a similar claim (Spiegel Online) in 2000, copycatting Viner (see below link)

    Meanwhile seven metres of global warming …. in white!

    http://notrickszone.com/2013/02/08/french-ski-resort-shuts-down-because-of-too-much-snow/

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  100. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    @Kea,

    So your problem is comprehension. That is twice now you have quoted the same words from me, claiming them to state that I view the masses as ignorant, when they very clearly say no such thing.

    “Even when” are very important words in that statement Kea. I empathize that you struggle to grasp them.

    How will we choose who rules ?

    “Rules” is the wrong term to use – “governs” would be better.

    We are a constitutional monarchy with a House of Representatives elected every 3 years. The monarchs’ powers are limited by what they can do without the support of Parliament. In our everyday reality, if not the letter of constitution, NZ is a government “of the people, by the people, for the people” [Although technically and legally it can be argued otherwise.]

    The process of determining that government is an election every 3 years which provides for representative democracy. Which, as I pointed out early on yesterday, is the system I support.

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  101. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    bhudson, I think you are engaging me on what you “think” I am saying, rather than on what I did say. I may be guilty of doing the same actually.

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