NZ First MPs

February 13th, 2013 at 9:05 am by David Farrar

Andrea Vance at Stuff reports:

NZ First MPs are privately seething at ’s call for Muslims to be banned from Western airlines.

I’m not surprised.

There are some good people in NZ First. I’m no fan of Winston but some of his MPs are trying to be productive Representatives in Parliament. I’m sure they are cringing at the thought of having to explain to their friends and families how they are part of a party where an MP can refer to Muslims coming from and calls on anyone who is “or looks like” a Muslim being banned from air travel if they are a young male.

The list MP went to ground yesterday after his remarks were widely publicised and provoked controversy. NZ First leader Winston Peters has refused to sack him and says he doesn’t have to apologise.

They should be equally angry at Winston. He has made it impossible for them to distance themselves from the views expressed, as not even the bare minimum of an apology has been given. They have no defence against people saying they are part of a party that effectively allows MPs to label some New Zealanders as wogs and that wogs shouldn’t be allowed on our planes.

A NZ First source said its MPs were furious and believed Mr Prosser “acted like a stupid idiot”.

Did no one in NZ First think to vet the column before publication. It is common in pretty much every party for columns to be go through the Leader’s Office in advance. You can’t allow an MP to claim they are a journalist and an MP, and what they write as a journalist is exempt.

And if I was in NZ First, I’d also be annoyed that the Leader knew about the column for three weeks and did nothing.

In a later interview he stood by his views and went on to say that an Israeli airline that bans Muslims is one of the world’s safest carriers.

Incidentally this is wrong. They do not ban Muslims. And having travelled to Israel let me tell you the security there is far more rigorous than merely losing a pocket knife as happened to Prosser. It took me over an hour to clear security – and you know I don’t “look like a Muslim” so the references to Israel are quite wrong.

“We are a mature party, we don’t go round telling people off. After a rational discussion he has changed his mind,” Mr Peters said. “. . . We can’t take it any further than that. He’s had a chance to reflect . . . he admits it was unbalanced.”

Rational?

The comments have gained some attention overseas, being well covered by Australian news organisations and turning up further afield in such publications as the Singapore-based Straits Times and Channel NewsAsia, Dubai-based Gulf News, and the UK edition of the Huffington Post.

I doubt there is another country on Earth where a legislator has actually seriously called for a travel ban on anyone who “looks likes a Muslim”, and is young and male.

UPDATE: The spin doctors have now got to Prosser and after saying he stands by what he wrote yesterday, he today said on Nine to Noon he regrets his choice of words (yet defends the use of the word wog!) and that he should have called for a debate on profiling, not a travel ban. There is a world of difference between what he wrote and what he now says he should have written.

He’s also trying to distract by saying my release of the story was part of a National strategy to cover up some (unidentified) other issue. Maybe he means the Papal abdication?

As I tweeted this morning, no one in National knew of my blog post before I made it. The only person who knew would be my flatmate after I showed him the article last night. You see, I only purchased a copy of Investigate on Monday afternoon, read the column with disbelief, and wrote my post that night timing it for 10 am Tuesday. So the conspiracy theory is just a desperate attempt to divert attention.

UPDATE 2: A very personal blog post from a Kiwi Muslim on what Prosser said.

I am a Bengali New Zealander. I am also a feminist, a bookworm, a foodie and a cinephile. Some days I have good taste in music and some days I have bad taste in music. I love the beach but hate getting sand everywhere. I speak several languages. I still get upset at the thought that Dumbledore dies. When I lived in Auckland, I thought of West Auckland as home. Now that I live in Wellington, I think of Auckland as home, and of Wellington as “my city,” whatever that means. I bake decent brownies (oh the irony).

Oh, yes, I am also a Muslim. …

Richard Prosser’s comments hurt because he’s saying I’m not a real New Zealander. I am an Other. I am suspect because I don’t, undoubtedly, look like his daughters. My little brother, now 20, studying a Bachelor of Commerce, with his terribly cheesy sense of humour and his kind, kind heart, who loves his sports and protein shakes but who I will partly always think of as that bossy toddler with chubby cheeks, is for no other reason than because Mr Prosser, from his position of power and privilege says so, not enough of a New Zealander. Because of only one thing, out of the many things that he is, because he is Muslim. Not enough of a New Zealander to deserve the minimum modicum of respect one would expect from an MP when talking about one of the citizens of this country, simply based on his faith, and, let’s be honest, the colour of his skin. Not enough of a New Zealander to get on his Western planes.

A very personal and moving post.

UPDATE3: The Radio NZ audio is embdedded below.

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124 Responses to “NZ First MPs”

  1. lazza (381 comments) says:

    Hey David get the Radio NZ interview clip Nine to Noon this am with Prosser. Geez! …”Prosser” … no make that “Tosser”.

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  2. Peter (1,713 comments) says:

    The saddest thing about all this is that it will nothing to dent NZFirsts popularity. Quite the opposite, I suspect.

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  3. BeaB (2,125 comments) says:

    None to Noon is sounding more like a crusading cross examination than an interview. Prosser is actually coming out of it sounding reasonable in comparison to the selective and hounding interviewer, How often does she expect him to say he was wrong?

    I had never heard of the man before this blew up but I have to admit we are still laughing at ‘Wogistan’ and the ‘trogolodyte misogynists’. How appalling of us.

    And as for our ‘international reputation’. Spare me. On that basis every country in the world should be sent to the naughty step.

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  4. RRM (9,933 comments) says:

    I hope we will yet hear more from Dick Tosser, he is certainly entertaining. :-D

    Are there any good team photos of the NZ First MPs on the internet?

    I need to find one and cheezburger the words A sorry pack of misogynist troglodytes from Wogistan onto it.

    Also depending on how big ths gets I might have to start putting my return address on the back of my mail as

    RRM
    123 Address Street
    Suburb
    City 4567
    Wogistan

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  5. OTGO (557 comments) says:

    Oh c’mon. How many of you wouldn’t get at least a wee bit nervous boarding a flight to Wogistan and seeing a group of burka’d up muslims taking their seats. If you had a choice taking the flight with them or without them I’d go without them every time.

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  6. WineOh (630 comments) says:

    “Meanwhile, Peters said he had not changed his position on Prosser, after yesterday saying he would not ask him to stand down.

    “The article is not balanced, it’s not reasoned, it’s not logical. In fact it rules out half the people who are legitimately going about their business “. ”

    Wait… so only half the Muslim community are troglodytes & airplane bombers?

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  7. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    There’s been a lot of talk about “respect” recently.
    With all due respect – Islam doesn’t deserve it.

    Islam is the force behind the chaos in Somalia, Mali, Pakistan and southern Thailand. The force behind the evil in Egypt with the Coptic Christians being killed and their churches destroyed.

    Sorry, but when I see a Muslim in the street, I see a person who chooses to remain a member of the cult that is responsible for the atrocities mentioned above. Oh, and I agree with OTGO.

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  8. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    Reality seems to have set in.

    Statement from Prosser: I accept that I impugned many peaceful law-abiding Muslims, and to them I unreservedly apologise.

    The issue requires positive solutions, and my article in Investigate sadly did not contribute to that.

    I wonder if Winston has backflipped or the party stepped in.

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  9. Harriet (4,975 comments) says:

    Why would anyone listen to the limp-wristed in NZ First?

    As NZ gets more and more secular it is lashing out at religion in general, but Christianity in particular.

    At the same time, however, and most oddly, it is bending over backwards to accommodate Islam.

    Being insensitive and overly harsh is certainly wrong. But so too is being so afraid to offend anyone that we end up saying nothing.

    It will of course offend some, anger some, and turn off some. But that is their problem as we have an obligation to speak truth -NZFirst MP’sincluded.

    The contrasts could not be greater:
    -Muhammad was a prophet of war; Christ is the Prince of Peace.
    -Muhammad and his disciples killed for the faith; Christ and his disciples were killed for their faith.
    -Muhammad preached “Death to the infidels!”; Christ prayed “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do”.
    -Muhammad constrained people by conquest; Christ constrained people by love.

    Yet National & Labour/Greens prefer the former while despising the latter. There policies and appeasement indicate this.

    “In the summer of 2010, mourners lined the streets of Wales’s capital city to pay tribute to a seven-year-old boy killed in a house fire. In fact, Yaseen Ali Ege was brutally beaten to death, and then set alight with barbecue fuel. By his mother. For failing to learn the Koran. Over the preceding months, Mom had used a stick, a rolling pin, and a hammer on her son, but, despite these incentives, he had memorized only a couple of pages. And so she killed him, and subsequently declared she felt ‘100 percent better’.”

    He continues, “Of course not all Muslims brutalize their families — although the ten-year-old daughter of Asia Parveen of Stoke Newington was treated for 56 injuries after being beaten for not reading enough verses of the Koran, and Hesha Yones of west London had her throat cut by her father for being too ‘Westernized,’ and a five-month-old baby in Halmstad, Sweden, was beaten to death with a Koran, and this very month a campaign against Muslim domestic violence is being launched in Scotland, and a BBC poll last year revealed that two-thirds of young British Muslims favor violence against those who ‘dishonor’ their families, and in the Netherlands Muslims make up 60 percent of the population of battered-women’s shelters . . . And of course not all Muslims are self-segregating, although 57 percent of Pakistani Britons are married to first cousins, and in Bradford, Yorkshire, it’s 75 percent . . . Nevertheless, many Muslims share the broader cultural preferences of Yaseen’s mother….

    “Who knows? In Wales as in much of the Western world, we are in the midst of an unprecedented sociocultural experiment. Its precise end point cannot be known, but on the Continent its contours are beginning to emerge: In Amsterdam, formerly ‘the most tolerant city in Europe,’ gay-bashing is now routine; ‘youths’ busted into a fashion show, pulled a gay model from the catwalk, and beat him to a pulp. Claire Berlinski reported for National Review two years ago that in the French suburb of La Courneuve 77 percent of veiled women say they cover themselves to ‘avoid the wrath of Islamic morality patrols.’ In Potsdam, the Abraham Geiger Theological College advises its rabbis not to venture on the streets wearing identifying marks of their faith. In synagogues from Copenhagen to Berlin to Rome, Jews are warned to hide their yarmulkes under hats or baseball caps at the end of the service. In Paris, a man wearing no identifiably religious clothing was beaten unconscious on the Métro for being caught reading a book by France’s chief rabbi. The message is consistent, from Jews to gays to women: In the new Europe, you don’t want to be seen as the other. Keep your head down, or covered.

    “For a decade, I’ve been told by those who think I’m ‘alarmist’ that there’s nothing to see here. The seven-year-old whose non-appearance at the teddy bears’ picnic goes unremarked . . . the beleaguered National Health Service reeling under the costs of genetic disorders from cousin marriage but now providing free and discreet ‘hymen reconstruction’ for Muslim daughters who got a little over-Westernized one night . . . the infidel women going veiled to avoid trouble in les banlieues . . . the rabbis wearing baseball caps on the streets of Berlin and Brussels . . . One reason that there’s ‘nothing to see’ is the ever greater lengths we go to cover it, and ourselves, up. The veil descends, on all of us.” – Mark Steyn.

    So the West has chosen to reject the most civilising and most benevolent religion on the planet for one that is the complete opposite. No wonder the West is heading down the tubes so fast. And I too have been called “alarmist” and worse for pointing out these inconvenient truths.

    But I, like Steyn, will keep presenting these warnings until we are officially bound and gagged by the authorities and the forces of political correctness.

    But at least the both of us -and Richard Prosser- can rightly say, “We told you so.”

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  10. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    Sorry, but when I see a Muslim in the street, I see a person who chooses to remain a member of the cult that is responsible for the atrocities mentioned above.

    That’s remarkably generalised blaming. Can you differentiate Christians? And Atheists? And Jews? What do you blame them for?

    I often see Muslims in the street and I see people with as much right to walk unaccosted and unostracised as me.

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  11. Kleva Kiwi (289 comments) says:

    From Muslim to feminist. One extreme to the other?

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  12. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Can you differentiate Christians? And Atheists? And Jews? What do you blame them for?

    I’d hazard a guess at… the crusades, comunist gulags (and Richard Dawkins), and a world wide conspiracy for control of everything somehow.

    (Odviously, this comment is tounge in cheek)

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  13. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Anyone seen George Galloway’s comments. The hypocrisy is so powerful it’s a wonder the universe hasn’t imploded.

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  14. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    The RNZ Labour Programme interviewer annoyed me not so much by her hounding as by her heavy tone of righteousness.

    “Are you going to apologise?” Ms Ryan demanded, and badgered Prosser, like a teacher disciplining a six-year-old, and pressing him why he didn’t apologise the previous day. “Are you going to resign as an MP?” and “Is this (being an MP) your right job?” and “I asked you whether you are fit to serve as an MP?” and “This line about it (his article)having enough balance is preposterous,” said Ms Ryan, spitting out her consonants even more than usual. “Is Christianity alright and Islam not alright in your world?” “Can you answer yes or no to my question … can you answer yes or no to that?”

    Let’s hope Ms Ryan puts Harawira on the mat next time just as severely when that MP makes a racist comment about non-Maori.

    IMHO, Prosser was wrong and even outrageous, but that’s what you expect from the magazine he was writing for, just as you expect over the top stuff from Whale Oil’s Truth.

    “My style as a columnist is not appropriate any more for an MP,” Prosser told Ms Ryan.

    The reaction to Prosser has been over the top. It’s made him famous. It’s put NZ First in the headlines. I live in Canterbury and wasn’t even aware he lived in the region, or had even heard of him before yesterday. I won’t be buying Investigate magazine to read Prosser, but no doubt he will be in the MSM from now on.

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  15. radvad (767 comments) says:

    Your post from “Kiwi Muslim” is very well written and most likely very genuine. However it lacks “balance”. You could perhaps balance it DPF by asking your correspondent how she feels about Islamic teaching that requires apostates to be killed and, if she disagrees with that teaching, how could she remain a Muslim.

    http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/12/gore-current-silent-as-cleric-affirms-apostacy-death-penalty-on-al-jazeera/

    Balance please.

    [DPF: As she has not gone around killing apostates, I imagine she is not in favour of it. Just as I imagine not all Christians believe in killing false prophets (Zechariah 13:3)]

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  16. Harriet (4,975 comments) says:

    “…..A very personal and moving post….”

    ‘….The message is consistent, from Jews to gays to women: In the new Europe, you don’t want to be seen as the other. Keep your head down, or covered.One reason that there’s ‘nothing to see’ is the ever greater lengths we go to cover it, and ourselves, up. The veil descends, on all of us……” – Mark Steyn.

    DPF…….I don’t think ‘kiwi Muslims’ are a better reflection of Muslims than any others

    ……They’re JUST Muslims arn’t they? :cool:

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  17. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    Yes Harriet, every one of them are the same, the same beliefs, the same blame.

    All you Christians are the same too. Nasty when you see religious competition.

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  18. mikemikemikemike (325 comments) says:

    Your faux-outrage is making you look pompous and is getting tiresome DPF. It’s also really, really obvious you are just doing your best to avoid a left franken-majority taking over at the next election (Which I hope like heck does not happen). I’ve seen much worse things said about beneficiaries and people from Sth Akl than this guy said. Hell even Melissa Lee didn’t want a motorway built because it might make it easier for the people of Mangere to come and rob her pristine neighborhood.

    You are much better sticking to proper facts and reasoned debate rather than trying to blow up this non-story.

    [DPF: Yes, a non story. Wow what great judgement you have. I mean nothing wrong with saying people who look Muslim should be banned from travelling. fuck what sort of warped world do you live in]

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  19. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    radvad at 10.30 am – your comment is probably genuine, but it lacks balance. You could perhaps balance it radvad by giving your view on other religious shit happening, and ask how people associated with those religions could remain a part of them. And don’t forget the atheists and the agnostics.

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  20. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    @Pete George – “That’s remarkably generalised blaming. Can you differentiate Christians? And Atheists? And Jews? What do you blame them for?”

    Christians aren’t killing people around the world just because they are non-Christian. Same for atheists and Jews (and Buddhists and Hindus and Taoists and so on and so on…..). Big, big difference.

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  21. ChardonnayGuy (1,207 comments) says:

    I seem to recall a Brisbane mosque getting burnt down in 2001, Harriet. Typical Queenslandtardation.

    And excuse me? Islam is a global faith, with its own denominational divisions and nuances of practise, so of course not all Sunni Muslims support al Qaeda’s tactics or the clownish antics of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on the Shia side of the ledger. Tosser should be booted out of Parliament and Investigrunt should be shut down completely, but sadly, neither will be, because Winston feeds off support from pond scum racists and ignorant sectarians similar to that which Tosser represents. And Kiwi Muslims are not militant. In fact, they saw off some rabblerousers at a South Auckland mosque quite decisively about two years ago.

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  22. sbk (312 comments) says:

    “and I see people with as much right to walk unaccosted and unostracised as me.”..yep…but that didnt stop Muslims in London acosting and abusing in areas designated by them(and not by council edict) as no-go zones for the non-compliant.

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  23. Twinkletoes (53 comments) says:

    @Peter George. When you see a muslim in the street, you see a person with as much right to walk unaccosted and unostracised as me.

    Major problem – they do not see you in the same way. To them you are a filthy infidel of lesser intelligence, who needs to be subjugated and degraded because muslims are, according to Mohammed, the superior race on the planet. You, as in the good old days of the Islamic Empire, should be walking in the gutter wearing your blue band to designate your dhimmihood (yellow if you are Jewish), wearing your wooden shoes(leather for muslims only) ,on the way to pay your jizya to the muslim tax collector just because you are an infidel.

    Our tolerance will be our undoing. Look at the Sharia patrols that have appeared in Europe now the muslim demographic is high enough over there for them to start showing their true colours.

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  24. Urban Redneck (234 comments) says:

    A “Muslim feminist”.

    She’d be the first to have her throat cut once the Caliphate arrives – after all the homosexuals and infidels who refuse to submit of course.

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  25. tvb (4,430 comments) says:

    Winston has given these comments the green light. To make broad sweeping allegations is racist and Winston knows that. This obscure MP has got himself thrust into the spotlight with the tacid approval of his Leader.

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  26. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    Agreed, Twinkletoes.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but Islam is the ONLY “religion” that (every day, around the world) kills those who are not members of it, purely because of that non-membership.

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
    Quote – “The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called ‘hypocrites’ and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.”

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  27. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    And Kiwi Muslims are not militant.

    I know a guy (fled an Arab country after death threats) who’s son overheard a discussion in Arabic about how their first target in a terrorist campagin would be the sky tower.

    I also had a colleague who saw first hand violent behaviour in a protest that was reported in the media as peaceful.

    They do not appear militant now. I have serious reservations as to how long it will be before we cannot say that.

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  28. calendar girl (1,242 comments) says:

    PG: “All you Christians are the same too. Nasty when you see religious competition.”

    I’m disappointed to see you descend to that level, Pete. As you admonished another commenter on this thread earlier this morning: “That’s remarkably generalised blaming.”

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  29. howdarethey (32 comments) says:

    thor42

    There’s been a lot of talk about “respect” recently.
    With all due respect – Islam doesn’t deserve it.

    Islam is the force behind the chaos in Somalia, Mali, Pakistan and southern Thailand. The force behind the evil in Egypt with the Coptic Christians being killed and their churches destroyed.

    Sorry, but when I see a Muslim in the street, I see a person who chooses to remain a member of the cult that is responsible for the atrocities mentioned above. Oh, and I agree with OTGO.

    Shame thor42 you didn’t also write in your second para that Christianity is the force behind the chaos in Iraq and Afghanistan, to say little for the worldwide economic chaos caused by the rampant materialism of America, a Christian nation. By the way, I’m a Christian.

    You might be interested to know that scientists now have an idea of what happens in the brain during times of prayer and meditation. What seems to happen in people (this is a process observed in Buddhists, Christians and Muslims, discovered through MRI scanning), is that during prayer/meditation an area of the brain responsible for a person’s perception of distance in relation to the physical world slows down. Apparently, when people suffer an injury or illness and this part of the brain is affected, the person can’t do things like feed themselves or get into bed – they fall on the floor/cut themselves, because they have no idea of how far away they are from things.

    When people pray, this part of the brain quiets. Is it then much of a leap to consider that this is what creates the feelings of space, peace and a sense of oneness with our environment we experience/strive for in prayer?

    Another thing done by the same scientists above was to examine the experience of near-death from a neurological perspective. They found that whereas Christians had a sense of rising to a light, Buddhists apparently experience an increasing sense of oneness. This is of course consistent with each of the Christian and Buddhist faiths promise for death.

    None of us should be so proud as to think our particular way of faith is superior. None of us should be so proud as to think that because we ourselves are a believer in a Higher faith, we have the right to criticise agnostics and atheists.

    Get on the higher plain. Science seems to be revealing that religion is a gift from the One/s we believe, to permit us to see the beauty of our brains through communication with our Maker. Anyone who claims a God not theirs is a God of war and should thus be attacked acts in their own will, not that of their God.

    I can’t believe how depressing it is to watch some of our parliamentary idiots perform. What a shame and disgrace.

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  30. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    Twinkletoes, how many Muslims in New Zealand have told you that’s what they think?

    All I see here is the same old repeated sweeping claims with no evidence. And quotes from ancient religious texts – a method of ‘proving’ or disproving things for centuries.

    calendar girl – I was making a point by showing how ludicrous blanket blame is. Interesting that you chose to single out my comment and not many others on this thread, do you find everything else more acceptable?.

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  31. Scott Chris (6,150 comments) says:

    The saddest thing about all this is that it will nothing to dent NZFirsts popularity. Quite the opposite, I suspect.

    Quite. Hence the coy response from the Top Demagogue himself.

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  32. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    young maori males are responsible for ninety nine percent of assaults. I want them banned from the inner auckland subuRbs

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  33. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    @howdarethey – “Shame thor42 you didn’t also write in your second para that Christianity is the force behind the chaos in Iraq and Afghanistan, to say little for the worldwide economic chaos caused by the rampant materialism of America, a Christian nation.”

    No it’s not. Iraq and Afghanistan were *policy decisions* of a government.
    They had *nothing* to do with religion.
    Iraq was the mistaken belief that WMDs were there.
    Afghanistan was kicking out the Taliban.
    Nothing to do with religion.

    Same with the economic problems – it’s drawing a long bow indeed to blame that on religion (which was the whole point of my post). How is Christianity to blame for economic problems?

    ( I’m an atheist btw…… )

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  34. mikemikemikemike (325 comments) says:

    “[DPF: Yes, a non story. Wow what great judgement you have. I mean nothing wrong with saying people who look Muslim should be banned from travelling. fuck what sort of warped world do you live in]”

    The same one where people can refer to beneficiaries as scum, Maori as niggers and people who succeed as rich pricks. I really think you need to get your head out of your arse if you don’t think a good percentage of your readers don’t actually agree with what Prosser said. I would imagine if John Banks said the same thing you would be no where near as ‘outraged’ nor would you dedicated a growing number of stories to it, rather you would express regret and move on to diverting the attention elsewhere like any good politically aligned blog owner would (personally I thought you might be a little better than that).

    Also this guy is a non-story because he is a no-one, and will only become someone if NZ first get in power. Which you are obviously nervous of and hence the posturing.

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  35. lastmanstanding (1,297 comments) says:

    Sadly as history has shown whilst not all Muslims are terrorists most if not all terrorist attacks against the West have been carried out by people who have said they are Muslim and of the Islam faith.

    So it is hardly surprising that we whiteys are a tad nervous about people who are either Muslims or of the Islam faith or appear to us to be so.

    Lets turn it around.

    Say that a significant number of white Christians had carried out tens if not hundreds of terrorist attacks against innocent Muslims and member of the Islam faith including women and children.

    As a white Christian I would understand why Muslims would look at me with fear and would go out of my way to reassue them that I wasnt a terrorist. I would do all in my power to make sure they understood this but I would understand on first sight of me their fear I amy acrry out a terrorist attack.

    Its called human nature.

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  36. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    Absolutely right, LMS. Well said!

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  37. Cunningham (844 comments) says:

    Sorry, yeah right! I would believe him if it was an off the cuff remark but it was an article he wrote and had plenty of time to review. This guy is toxic and if Winston Peters wasn’t such a prick he would have turfed him out. I hpoe the story continues to put pressure on NZ first.

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  38. howdarethey (32 comments) says:

    thor42

    Oh come on. Bush 43, to my mind the worst US president ever, maintained a Christian perspective throughout his presidency. His reelection in 2004 was credited to his ability to persuade the Christian right wing to get out and vote. Did you know the day before 9/11/2001, the US government announced that US$1.9 trillion (no typo) had been misplaced by the Defence department and investigations were continuing. Bush’s failure to bring that particular scenario to a successful (for the taxpayer) solution during his time in office makes me lose respect for the man.

    Again my point. Bush’s perceptions of his relationship to his (here, Christian) God apparently was how he justified his actions. The same can be said for people currently in positions of power around the world, including those of Muslim faith governing in some trouble spots.

    My point is, no point blaming things on others, if you/we/I aren’t prepared to recognise we can believe in what we like, but our actions are what affect others. Don’t worry about what a person believes, judge them on their actions.

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  39. Harriet (4,975 comments) says:

    Pete George – “….All I see here is the same old repeated sweeping claims with no evidence….”

    Only a person like you Pete WOULD WANT to see evidence of militant muslim behaviour IN NZ before you acted.

    Why deny what is happening in Europe Pete? :cool:

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  40. davidp (3,581 comments) says:

    I’m still waiting for Shearer and Norman to condemn this racism and tell us they won’t enter a coalition with NZ First. Until then, I’m going to assume that they hope to enter government with NZ First, including NZ First ministers.

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  41. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    @howarethey – My point stands.

    The Iraq invasion was a mistaken belief that Iraq had WMDs. ( Even if one takes the more cynical view that it was about oil, it still wasn’t invaded “because of religion” ).

    Same with Afghanistan. The Taliban were turfed out because they are a bunch of murderous thugs – not “because they were Muslims”.

    How Bush justified it to himself is up to him. It doesn’t change the facts.

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  42. radvad (767 comments) says:

    [DPF: As she has not gone around killing apostates, I imagine she is not in favour of it. Just as I imagine not all Christians believe in killing false prophets (Zechariah 13:3)]

    Yes but DPF, Muslims not only teach it, they practice it. Do you know of anyChristians who teach it, let alone practice it? No, thought not. A very feeble attempt at moral equivalence.

    [DPF: Don't be stupid. I did no moral equivalence. She suggested that every Muslim has a duty to condemn the clause about killing apostates. I pointed out the old testament has stupid clauses also.

    I have blogged dozens of times on the weaknesses and flaws in Islam and my dislike for Islamists (not Muslims). I have never equated Christianity with Islam.

    But what I detest are bigots who think every individual Muslim is evil, and that as an individual they are obliged to not just live a good life themselves and do no evil - but they must bear the sins of other members of their religion.]

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  43. Mark (1,488 comments) says:

    Harriet you have rather a rose tinted view of the use if violence in the name of Christianity. This is not solely a Muslim prerogative. Muslims are not the only people who brutally murder women and children. The enemy is extremism in what ever form it comes and Christianity has its share of intolerant violent bigots.

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  44. Harriet (4,975 comments) says:

    [DPF: Yes, a non story. Wow what great judgement you have. I mean nothing wrong with saying people who look Muslim should be banned from travelling. fuck what sort of warped world do you live in]

    The same warped world where ‘old white women’ can’t take toothpaste onto a plane.

    There is no history of OWW having EVER been terrorists – so why your support for the toothpaste thing DPF ?

    Or will you admit that ‘old white women’ should be allowed to carry toothpaste onto a plane?

    If the NZ government customs people keep picking on ‘old white women’ – I’ll keep picking on Muslims! :cool:

    [DPF: You're being even more stupid. There is a midpoint between no Muslims can ever fly on planes, and security measures should be better targeted.

    Your sort of belief system is what led to the Jewish holocaust. because some Jews were unpopular moneylenders, an entire religion was scapegoated and almost wiped out.

    Try treating people as individuals and human beings - not just as a member of a group]

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  45. eszett (2,417 comments) says:

    This made me spill my coffee:

    Asked whether he was aware “wog” was a slur, Mr Prosser said it was an acronym for “Western Oriental gentleman”.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10865127

    Prosser, the gift that keeps on giving. In more than one way.

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  46. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    Harriet – I haven’t denied anything about what’s happening in Europe. But that’s on the other side of the world, a very different complex of situations.

    Only a person like you Pete WOULD WANT to see evidence of militant muslim behaviour IN NZ before you acted.

    What would a person like you want to see Harriet? People arrested and deported before you see any evidence?

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  47. howdarethey (32 comments) says:

    thor42

    My point with Iraq re:WMD or lack thereof, is that immediately following 9/11 and always thereafter, Bush appeared to perceive he had been placed in the presidency for a higher purpose. There is lots of evidence for this, for example witness his own writings post-presidency.

    I believe Bush’s beliefs influenced both himself and his key advisors to decide it was Baghdad or bust, evidence be damned. The CIA became the scapegoat for the WMD fiasco, but it does seem to me that Bush allowed his personal faith in God to justify the arrogance of some sort of crusade. That’s all I’m saying.

    I seem to remember the words, “History is the history of great men.” Around the world, not just in the world of Islam but also in Christian nations, we should all work against those of our leaders who seek to use faith to justify acts of bigotry against others.

    All three of the Christian, Muslim and Jewish faiths have in common the possibility of a wrathful God. Do we wish our leaders to ignite this wrath within us, or do we wish for them to help us to see every God wants us to love ourselves and others.

    We’re paying $180,000 plus perks to this Wogistan guy. Crazy.

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  48. eszett (2,417 comments) says:

    And having travelled to Israel let me tell you the security there is far more rigorous than merely losing a pocket knife as happened to Prosser.

    I’d suggest Mr. Prosser tries to take a pocket knife on board an El Al flight and see what happens.
    Losing the pocket knife would be the least of his worries.

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  49. Harriet (4,975 comments) says:

    “…..What would a person like you want to see Harriet? People arrested and deported before you see any evidence?…”

    No!

    I want to see FULL acceptance in NZ of Muslims.

    Exactly the same treatment that Christians -moreso Catholics- get in NZ Pete.

    Degrading billboards and advertisments of Islam and Allah.

    Remarks, reports etc from the media ‘belittleing’ Islam.

    MP’s outright rubbishing Islam.

    The commercialisation by business and media of Muslim traditions.
    Etc Etc

    You appear very ignorant of ‘kiwi style acceptance’ Pete. :cool:

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  50. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    To those people who have debated in other threads whether Muslim immigration to New Zealand is increasing, decreasing, staying static, and do we need to worry because after all they’re all moving to Europe so we’re fine …

    First, from Victoria University’s Centre for Applied Cross-Cultural Research.

    Muslims are the most rapidly growing religious group in New Zealand with the population increasing six-fold between 1991 and 2006. Muslims now constitute about 1% of the population. The majority (77%) of New Zealand Muslims are overseas-born with the largest proportions identifying as Indian (29%) and as members of Middle Eastern groups (21%) such as Arab, Iranian and Iraqi (Ministry of Social Development, 2008).

    http://cacr.victoria.ac.nz/projects/research-projects/muslims-in-new-zealand

    Statistics NZ data from 2006 backs this up. Of the people born overseas affiliating with Muslim, 48.0 percent arrived in New Zealand between 2001 and 2006. Be interesting to see what this year’s census shows.

    I rather suspect we will continue to see more Muslims arriving here, as we welcome them with open arms. We’re falling over ourselves to ensure Muslims are treated properly. Let’s talk about the Human Rights Commission. “Building Bridges” is a programme coordinated by the Office of Ethnic Affairs (OEA) since 2005 which focuses on integration, public awareness and dialogue relating to the Muslim community. “Building Bridges” expanded to the South Island in 2010. The OEA undertakes initiatives such as:

    – Youth Awareness and Positive Dialogue: a pilot project with schools to explore and raise awareness about Muslims among young people. The aim was to create an atmosphere for positive discussion and dialogue around Islamic belief and culture.
    – Visibility: an educational resource which aims to create dialogue on the benefits and challenges of diversity. This resource will include material on the stereotyping of Muslims.
    – Media: targeted training provided to Muslim community leaders and representatives. The training included prominent journalists and media representatives.
    – Youth Leadership: a training programme to develop the leadership potential of young Muslim New Zealanders. This programme included four sessions: identity and self-esteem, intergenerational conflict, civic participation and the New Zealand environment and connecting with it.

    http://www.hrc.co.nz/race-relations/annual-review-of-race-relations/religious-diversity-in-new-zealand

    How about our friends at the Ministry of Social Development? MSD’s Settling In programme hosted a workshop on ”Understanding Islam from a rights perspective” at the New Zealand Diversity Forum in 2009. The workshop addressed the knowledge gap of Muslim women, human rights advocates, academics and policy makers in relation to policymaking, women’s rights and fundamental liberties.

    And let’s not forget the panel discussion that MSD hosted, on Muslim youth and the police, in 2008.

    Is it any wonder that PhD student Jaimee Stuart, a researcher at Victoria University, says “Muslims in New Zealand experience lower levels of discrimination and immigration stress, even though they have stronger religious identities and practice their religion more than those in the UK.

    So I’d say, whether you’re for Muslims or against them, get used to them. You don’t really have a choice.

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  51. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    why more so is catholics harriet? worship what ever you want just do it in private. religion causes easy to much friction,

    because of fanatics.

    and to prosser the red army faction etc were not muslims, this generation of terrorists are just using that as an excuse to disrupt instead of communisim. about bags are shit bags, they just look for a label to be shit bags for

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  52. Mark (1,488 comments) says:

    On a lighter note on an air Italia flight out of Rome a Couple of years ago a very elegant Italian diva was forced to dump the greater part of The contents of her makeup-case. An impressive and expensive collection it was too. The resulting tantrum was outstanding and well worth the inconvenience of modern security arrangements. :)

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  53. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    That’s quite revealing Harriet (at 12.09 pm).

    Not sure how you think all that can be achieved. Do you mean on a one for one basis, or proportional to how many Catholics there are compared to Muslims?

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  54. calendar girl (1,242 comments) says:

    Pete, I’m not interested in being diverted into a full evaluation of the wider thread. My only interest expressed was in the “acceptability” (your term, not mine) of your comment: “All you Christians are the same too. Nasty when you see religious competition.”

    Now you suggest (I think) that your little outburst was merely ironical, to make a point. Of course it was.

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  55. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Again my point. Bush’s perceptions of his relationship to his (here, Christian) God apparently was how he justified his actions.

    False, and nothing you’ve said proves that to be true.

    Bush appeared to perceive he had been placed in the presidency for a higher purpose.

    This is of course, quite true.

    Let me use an example.

    Suppose I get halfway to work and realise I’ve forgotten my lunch. So I turn around and go back, making me 10 minutes later than usual.

    I’m rueing my misfortune when suddenly I notice someone come to misfortune just ahead. I am in just the right place to help that person, and it turns out that they needed immediate help.

    Suddenly, I see the fact that I was late as providential, having a higher purpose. (You might disagre with this but that’s beside the point).

    The point is, the fact I see a higher purpose to being placed where I am is completely and utterly independent to the morality of my action.

    In fact, Bush was only doing what Clinton had intended to do during his presidency. However the Monica Lewinski affair meant that he didn’t have the political clout to make it happen. There was little doubt that the next president after Clinton was always going to have to do something with Iraq. As the sanctions were a disaster for the Iraqi people and the idea of having Saddam (who’d invaded next door on a whim) off a leash was unthinkable.

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  56. E. Campbell (91 comments) says:

    This is what you get when you have MMP and unknown list-MPs coat-tailing it into Parliament!

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  57. ChardonnayGuy (1,207 comments) says:

    Er, do the racist ratbags here remember the last census? Buddhism and Hinduism are both growing much faster than Islam, due to Chinese, Korean and Indian immigration here. Unsubstantiated prejudice and neanderthal rhetoric, meet empirical fact.

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  58. ChardonnayGuy (1,207 comments) says:

    Incidentally, I do apologise to any of homo sapien’s evolutionary precursors reading this. I didn’t mean to imply that they were any less intelligent than we are. In fact, they’re probably a damned sight more so than most of the raving right conspiracy theorists who see jihadists under every bed.

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  59. Harriet (4,975 comments) says:

    “….Not sure how you think all that can be achieved. Do you mean on a one for one basis, or proportional to how many Catholics there are compared to Muslims?…”

    Just the usual commentry and advertisments and social policy aimed at Islam that Christianity has had aimed at it in the past 40 yrs in NZ.

    You know…..gays turning up to Mosques in rainbow sashes etc….. :cool:

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  60. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Did you know the day before 9/11/2001, the US government announced that US$1.9 trillion (no typo) had been misplaced by the Defence department and investigations were continuing.

    Actually, that is a typo. The number was 2.3 trillion. And it was not missing they were unable to track it:

    “we cannot track” does not mean that the money went missing. It means that their systems are so out of date and not compatible with each other that they can’t track (by computer) transactions across departments. In order to do that, they would have to do it manually. The money is not missing, money went into the pentagon, and products and services came out – it’s just too complicated to follow the trail of exactly how that happened up to acceptable accounting practices.

    So, not so much a theft of titanic proportions as it as a case of updating accounting systems. Exciting stuff, no?

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  61. Nookin (3,354 comments) says:

    Ezzett

    “This made me spill my coffee:

    Asked whether he was aware “wog” was a slur, Mr Prosser said it was an acronym for “Western Oriental gentleman”.”

    Many years ago (and I am showing my age) there was a very popular TV programme called The Power Game. “Westernised Oriental Gentleman” was advanced as the long form of the expression WOG. I don’t think Prosser watched. He is probably too young. More likely he used the term to slag Muslims (not all of whom are oriental)

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  62. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    For the second year in a row, there were no fatalities or injuries from Muslim-American terrorism. Meanwhile, the United States suffered approximately 14,000 murders in 2012. Since 9/11, Muslim-American terrorism has claimed 33 lives in the United States, out of more than 180,000 murders committed in the United States during this period. Over the same period, more than 200 Americans have been killed in political violence by white supremacists and other groups on the far right…

    http://tcths.sanford.duke.edu/documents/Kurzman_Muslim-American_Terrorism_final2013.pdf

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  63. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    calendar girl – It wasn’t an outburst, it was a dig at a small number of commenters who make blanket accusations.

    I’ve made my views on Christians clear on numerous occasions, perhaps you’ve missed seeing any.

    Most Christians are mostly indistinguisable from non-Christians here as they are generally in New Zealand society. There are a prominent few who make very strong views known, often displaying intolerance of people with different views or beliefs.

    In this case one at least seems to be actively opposing all people of a different religion due to what appears to be a massive grudge about religious victimhood – they appear to want followers of competeting religions to be equal victims.

    Is that just a chip or is it a whole cross on Harriet’s shoulder?

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  64. ChardonnayGuy (1,207 comments) says:

    Er, Harriet? There *are* LGBT Muslim groups in the United Kingdom and Canada, you do realise? And they do criticise Muslim social conservatives as much as post-Christians bodyslam raving right Christian fundies do. Ever heard of Canadian Irshad Manji, author of “The Trouble With Islam”, for instance?

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  65. RRM (9,933 comments) says:

    Harriet – agreed, it would be interesting to see how organised Islam fares in a free and open society of the sort we are used to! :cool:

    It’s hard to imagine they could get their panties into a twist much more righteously indignant than the dour +tian old guard manage to do :cool:

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  66. Paulus (2,632 comments) says:

    All a bit of a bore – the article was published 3 weeks ago in a non mainstream magazine .

    I assume the media have only just found it with nothing better about which to trivialise.

    Winston says he knew nothing about it – so can’t be newsworthy.

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  67. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    Chardonnay Guy at 12:42.

    Buddhism and Hinduism are both growing much faster than Islam, due to Chinese, Korean and Indian immigration here.

    How is that measured? Overall numbers, percentage wise, what? According to Victoria University’s Centre for Applied Cross-Cultural Research, Muslims are the most rapidly growing religious group in New Zealand.

    http://cacr.victoria.ac.nz/projects/research-projects/muslims-in-new-zealand

    Not saying you’re wrong, or I’m right, just curious. I guess it comes down to lies, damn lies, and statistics. :)

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  68. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    For the second year in a row, there were no fatalities or injuries from Muslim-American terrorism. etc etc

    Flicking through the report, it lists quite a number of foiled plots – one assumes due to strong law enforcement attention. Which sort of undermines the meme that it’s not a problem – it clearly is. All you need is one successful, well planned terrorist plot to rack up thousands of casualties.

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  69. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    In a CNN interview, Manji stated that the windows of her apartment are fitted with bullet-proof glass, primarily for the protection of her family. At her December 2011 book launch in Amsterdam “Muslim extremists stormed in” and ordered her execution.

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  70. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    Andrea Vance is talking shit.

    NZ first thrives on anti immigrant comments.

    And all Prosser said was that we are all searched at airports and have our swiss army knives taken from us because of some halfwit muslims – who do practice a stone age belief.

    I suspect many more agree with what he says than truely think hes wrong.

    [DPF: No That is not all he said. There would be little controversy if that is all he said. He called for all young Muslim males to be banned from travel.]

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  71. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    the raving right conspiracy theorists who see jihadists under every bed

    Not to mention the ravings of those who see raving right conspiracy theorists who see jihadists under every bed under ever bed.

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  72. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    The problem DPF is that EVERYONE in the world who wants to travel by air has been negatively affected by these idiots.

    So why not EVERY muslim be kept off flights containing westerners – or maybe only muslims are searched….
    Yea, Yea – I know the human rights people will say thats Awful – but even more awful are that we are all penalised by these haters and wreckers (to use the immortal words of Czar Helen)

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  73. BeaB (2,125 comments) says:

    Our NZ Muslims have demanded he be sacked and expressed their outrage. Why not invite him to meet with them and learn a little about their faith and lifestyles? The way the Jews graciously did after vandalism of their graves.

    MP Choudhary (excuse spelling) says Prosser is a ‘cancer’.

    Not a big step from calling people a cancer to cutting off their heads or hands or stoning them or slicing bits off their genitals.

    It makes me weep to see litle girls shrouded at the mall while Dad dressed in his Western clothes struts alongside his wife-in-a-sack. No excuses or rationalisations or so-called tolerance convinces me we should allow such appalling oppression of girls and women in NZ.

    And, worse, if it is, as a Muslim cleric piously explained to me, to protect them from the ‘uncontrollable lusts of men’ (his words) then how safe are our unshrouded girls and women from Muslim men? And how do we know which ones are safe to be around and which ones are not? And how is it that they can control their lusts when around white infidel women but not their own?

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  74. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    The problem DPF is that EVERYONE in the world who wants to travel by air has been negatively affected by these idiots.

    Including Muslims who want to travel by air. It’s quite possible many of them are annoyed at what has happened becasue of a few idiots as well.

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  75. Elaycee (4,393 comments) says:

    Anyone hoping Prosser’s comments would remain ‘local’ news only, is dreaming – his ill-judged comments have been reported in the Gulf News (UAE / Saudi / Kuwait / Oman etc).

    Thanks, Richard. You don’t make it easy for a Kiwi doing business in the Middle East – you being a current MP etc.

    Next time you open your gob, fill the gap with a muffin!

    http://gulfnews.com/news/world/other-world/ban-all-muslim-men-from-flights-1.1145340

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  76. Andrei (2,664 comments) says:

    FFS get a grip people, he wrote an article that has ruffled a few feathers.

    That’s all. Nobody is dead, nobody has even been harmed

    Why do we have to walk on eggshells when it comes to Muslims, Gays, wimmin and all the other protected classes?
    I’m sick of this faux outrage being used to stifle open debate.

    And I’m sick of mealy mouth apologists.

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  77. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:


    The Green party is to ask Parliament to re-assert its position on religious tolerance.

    The move comes in the wake of controversial comments made by NZ First MP Richard Prosser suggesting Muslim men should be barred from flights by Western airlines.

    All MPs are required to support the notice in motion – and if even one objects it will fail.

    The motion will re-iterate that all New Zealanders, regardless of faith or ethnicity should be treated equally before the law, and their rights and dignity upheld.

    A spokesman for the Greens said it was important Parliament sent a message to New Zealand’s Muslim communities.

    And he said it was an attempt to mitigate some of the economic damage Prosser had done.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8298664/Greens-seek-religious-tolerance-statement

    @dpfdpf
    House passes a motion in support of tolerance and diversity by Russel Norman

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  78. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    @felixmarwick
    Richard Prosser blocked by Hone Harawira from making personal explanation to the house

    @JudithCollinsMP
    Don’t think Hone right to deny R Prosser leave to make a personal explanation. After all Hone’s outburst against White NZers also wrong

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  79. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    @avancenz
    So @Richard_Prosser snuck into Parly the back way. That’s the guy who’s unafraid to say what others are thinking?

    “I would imagine some of my views will be shared among party members,” Richard Prosser, Dec 2011.

    “I’ll raise them with my caucus colleagues, but I’m not going to be able to push or promote anything that’s not party policy.”

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  80. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    Pete George at 2:10.

    I don’t know that there’s any need for Parliament to “re-assert its position on religious tolerance.” Seems like a knee-jerk reaction to me.

    As I posted earlier, we welcome Muslims with open arms in NZ. As just one example, the Human Rights Commission has had the “Building Bridges”, coordinated by the Office of Ethnic Affairs (OEA), since 2005 which focuses on integration, public awareness and dialogue relating to the Muslim community. The OEA undertakes initiatives such as:

    – Youth Awareness and Positive Dialogue: a pilot project with schools to explore and raise awareness about Muslims among young people. The aim was to create an atmosphere for positive discussion and dialogue around Islamic belief and culture.
    – Visibility: an educational resource which aims to create dialogue on the benefits and challenges of diversity. This resource will include material on the stereotyping of Muslims.
    – Media: targeted training provided to Muslim community leaders and representatives. The training included prominent journalists and media representatives.
    – Youth Leadership: a training programme to develop the leadership potential of young Muslim New Zealanders. This programme included four sessions: identity and self-esteem, intergenerational conflict, civic participation and the New Zealand environment and connecting with it.

    And, again from my earlier post, a researcher at Victoria University said in a study “Muslims in New Zealand experience lower levels of discrimination and immigration stress, even though they have stronger religious identities and practice their religion more than those in the UK.”

    Over-reaction from the Greens – again.

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  81. calendar girl (1,242 comments) says:

    Pete George: You’ve moved some distance from your point that I first queried.

    10:41am – “All you Christians are the same too. Nasty when you see religious competition.”
    11:06am – “All I see here is the same old repeated sweeping claims with no evidence. And quotes from ancient religious texts – a method of ‘proving’ or disproving things for centuries.”
    12:48pm – “Most Christians are mostly indistinguisable from non-Christians here as they are generally in New Zealand society. There are a prominent few who make very strong views known, often displaying intolerance of people with different views or beliefs. In this case one at least seems to be actively opposing all people of a different religion …. ”

    So what you describe as a “chip … on Harriet’s shoulder …” appears to be the real problem. In that case, perhaps it’s best to remember that her personal views are not obligatory reading. And the rest of us might be spared the risk of misunderstanding your reasoned responses.

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  82. BeaB (2,125 comments) says:

    Andrei
    Well said. As a mature nation we should be able to deal with anything anyone says without all this faux outrage and political posturing and self-righteous media.
    Freedom of speech and thought are paramount so to see people being shut down, suppressed, sacked etc for their words and thoughts is a slippery slope indeed.

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  83. Harriet (4,975 comments) says:

    “….The motion will re-iterate that all New Zealanders, regardless of faith or ethnicity should be treated equally before the law, and their rights and dignity upheld….”

    You mean females and males are going to be treated the same before the law – in NZ? LOL.

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  84. howdarethey (32 comments) says:

    Andrei

    You come across as one of those good people who do nothing while evil triumphs. When groups suffer discrimination they are of course protected, as far as human rights go, that’s what living in a civilised country is all about. I suspect many Kiwis of Muslim faith are more than a little disturbed by Prosser’s article, and you need at least to acknowledge they have a right to be concerned. Not up to you to say to young men labelled troglodytes from Wogistan that they are wrong to be offended.

    You need to step off your pedestal, acknowledge your complacency/denial of concern over Prosser’s comments is as disturbing as actually supporting Prosser’s sentiments, and realise that if you don’t fight for the rights of others, one day, nobody will be there to help you fight for yours.

    Also, who are these “mealy mouth apologists” you are apparently so sick of?

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  85. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    This been a great publicity stunt by NZ First and the previously unknown Prosser.

    It’s all a crock. It would be impossible to ban all young Muslim men from Western flights, and I suspect Prosser has known that all along. How bizarre for the MSM to swallow this nonsense without looking at the practicalities.

    A facial hair snip, and into a Western business suit, and who could tell a young Muslim from a young non-Muslim? By nose shape profile?

    If it were a male-only ban, young Muslim men could hide in full Muslim female disguise, as some suicide bombers in Afghanistan do? Will Muslim women be shut out, too?

    If you had some sort of bizarre test like being forced to eat a pork snack, that would shut out vegetarians and Jews, too. An oath on a Rushdie novel? No, many non-Muslims would refuse to lay a hand on this, too.

    And there’s no chance of male air passengers accepting a dork check for circumcision. Even if possible, it would shut out many non-Muslim, non-Jewish males, snipped for non-religious reasons.

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  86. BeaB (2,125 comments) says:

    Today our parliament voted unanimously that Muslims should get more equality, freedoms etc etc than any other group in our society. Watch out, girls.

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  87. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    all mafiosa are italian so if we ban all italians from new zealand there e
    will be no organized crime here,
    -see its easy all problem s solved by sweepimg Inaccurate generalisation and a massive dose of ignorance

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  88. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    And in what looks like a ‘me too’ publicity stunt Hone Harawira prevented Prosser from giving a personal statement in parliament today, then later explained:

    Today I opposed a request from Richard Prosser to make a personal statement to the house. I did so because if he has an apology to make for his offensive remarks to the Muslim community, then he can make his way to the nearest mosque and ask forgiveness there.

    I do not accept that he should be able to make such remarks and then simply wash away his venom via an unchallenged explanation in the house.

    Like he would be an expert in how to was venom away.

    Harawira blocks Prosser’s personal statement

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  89. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    You come across as one of those good people who do nothing while evil triumphs….You need to step off your pedestal

    You first.

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  90. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    wasn’t hones white mother fuckers quote from a private email that got released?

    it looks like prosser got paid for his little gag

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  91. DJP6-25 (1,388 comments) says:

    Peter 9:30 am. Although my surname is Prosser, I’m 99% sure I’m not related. His family come from Auckland as far as I know. Mine come from Canterbury.

    cheers

    David Prosser

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  92. Andrei (2,664 comments) says:

    Not up to you to say to young men labelled troglodytes from Wogistan that they are wrong to be offended.

    Did I say they would be wrong to be offended?

    Funnily enough it isn’t young men of the Muslim faith who are leaping up and down, it is the ardently secular who are making the most noise

    And the Greens have their “religious tolerance” statement of course. Pure posturing.

    People are entitled to have their “dignity upheld” apparently – well some people anyway.

    Here’s a funny post from this very blog from my goodness was it really that long ago.

    What is hilarious is Pete George’s championing of “tolerance of different points of view” on that thread and his prissyness on when it comes to a particular “point of view” on this thread

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  93. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    There are some good people in NZ First

    Not in parliament, though.

    Winston, Williams, Prosser and (formerly) Horan. What an outstanding calibre of representative!

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  94. Steve Wrathall (284 comments) says:

    Meanwhile the spiritual head of Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood has re-affirmed the death penalty for anyone who leaves Islam. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=917pAS-Ccjs&list=UUsgTzOZfsyosq4j9qVi3YWg
    Of course his party will immediately distance themselves from his remarks and demand he apologise.
    ….
    waiting

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  95. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    Meanwhile the spiritual head of Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood has re-affirmed the death penalty for anyone who leaves Islam.

    Steve makes the same mistake many make. He completely and utterly fails to distinguish between Islam the religion and terrorist organisations who claim to do what they do in the name of the religion. In this they are no different from many terrorist groups through the centuries, including the Christian Crusaders and the Inquisitors. They were terrorists too, weren’t they. By any definition. Yes, they were.

    The diff of course is that for over a decade now, the western media have pretended that every time a terrorist who happens to be Muslim commits an act of terrorism, they did it because of their religion. And for some reason, some westerners, who claim they are sophisticated, free thinkers, don’t see through the fallacy.

    That’s modern propaganda for ya and that’s useful idiots in action, before our very eyes. Lapping up the lies without even recognising the clear and present fact that they are lies. To the contrary, the useful idiots seem to hallucinate they’re “advanced thinkers,” like a canary in the mine, warning the rest of us of this looming danger to the social fabric.

    You would think that the useful idiots would observe the millions upon millions if not billions of muslims who aren’t terrorists and start to wonder whether or not their “theory” is correct, given the reality it conflicts with. But the force [of useful idiocy] is clearly strong in these westerners, no amount of reality appears capable of returning them safely to planet Earth.

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  96. chiz (1,145 comments) says:

    The motion will re-iterate that all New Zealanders, regardless of faith or ethnicity should be treated equally before the law, and their rights and dignity upheld.

    So, the Greens want a parliamentary motion on religious tolerance? What about scientific tolerance? Should scientists be able to do research without having green party members break in in the middle of the night and vandalise their facilities?

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  97. chiz (1,145 comments) says:

    Reid: the western media have pretended that every time a terrorist who happens to be Muslim commits an act of terrorism, they did it because of their religion.

    The western media aren’t pretending anything. They’re merely reporting what those terrorists themselves claim.

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  98. wat dabney (3,775 comments) says:

    I wonder if the Greens will also propose a motion supporting tolerance of smokers and drinkers, and of those who applied themselves and earn more than most?

    No, didn’t think so.

    The Greens are not in the least tolerant.

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  99. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    The western media aren’t pretending anything. They’re merely reporting what those terrorists themselves claim.

    Yes and of course, those tewwowists have no vested interests at all in saying that, do they.

    So the next time some psychopath kills someone because “a voice who said he was the devil told them to” and the media report it, in the same way they report tewwowist incidents, you’ll start believing in that too?

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  100. eszett (2,417 comments) says:

    Andrei (1,782) Says:
    February 13th, 2013 at 1:57 pm
    FFS get a grip people, he wrote an article that has ruffled a few feathers.

    That’s all. Nobody is dead, nobody has even been harmed

    Why do we have to walk on eggshells when it comes to Muslims, Gays, wimmin and all the other protected classes?
    I’m sick of this faux outrage being used to stifle open debate.

    And I’m sick of mealy mouth apologists.

    Whenever anyone says anything against what andrei may agree with then it’s always “stifling debate.” What bollocks.
    Disagree with someone is part of the debate. When someone says something stupid, pointing it out and countering it is part of the debate.

    You have every right to say something stupid, andrei ( a right which you use often and with impunity.)
    Everyone else has the same right to respond to that.

    That’s not stifling debate, that IS debate.

    It’s time you grew up and stopped throwing a hissy fit every time someone has a different opinion to yours.

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  101. chiz (1,145 comments) says:

    I really don’t understand your point Reid. The reason that some terrorists claim that their actions are religiously motivated is because this is what they themselves believe. And if some psychopath goes on a killing spree claiming that it is because of a voice in his head I’m quite prepared to accept that this may be so.

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  102. Andrei (2,664 comments) says:

    Whenever anyone says anything against what andrei may agree with then it’s always “stifling debate.”

    You a full of crap eszett and you are making shit up.

    You know as well as I do that the way the progressives win is to wait for an opponant to say something that they can have a tantrum over, get the poor sods head on a stake and the message is sent and everybody else who might have agreed with the bugger that they have ruined pull their head in.

    We’ve seen this modus operandi over and over again.

    Nobody who aspires to a political future is going to dare raise the issues of airport security nor immigration again and if they have to it will be in an apologetic and grovely manner

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  103. eszett (2,417 comments) says:

    What hysterical nonsense, andrei. The “almighty progressives” again? Conspiracies everywhere?
    You just can’t distinguish between losing a debate and stifling a debate.

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  104. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    You just can’t distinguish between losing a debate and stifling a debate.

    Actually, the distinction is easy if you look at the gun control debate in the US.

    The NRA points out that banning various types of guns will only affect the law abiding. They point to various ways this works in reality, from banned guns being used in murders to areas with tight gun controls having more murders to areas with more guns having less crime etc etc. They also point out things like their opponents lumping in suicides in gun deaths stats in order to make the numbers look worse. They’ve won the gun debate in the US for the quite simple fact that they have the facts on their side and the other side usually hasn’t a clue (“high magazine clips”).

    The liberal response is to stifle the debate. Piers Morgan is great at this, blasting any one who opposes a new assault rifle ban (which was pretty much useless last time, see points above) as wanting to see kids mown down in school yards. Never mind an effective ban would result in no real change, never mind that armed school staff have stopped mass shooters in their tracks never mind the facts. You oppose Morgan, you’re a child killer and hate children and kittens and fluffy bunnies and are next to Hitler.

    That’s the difference.

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  105. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Steve makes the same mistake many make. He completely and utterly fails to distinguish between Islam the religion and terrorist organisations who claim to do what they do in the name of the religion.

    An admirable distinction. I’ve seen many of the “all wars are caused by religion” crowd label anything a “religious war” if the two opposing factions appear to have a different religious view. Of course, wars are usually about someone wanting something they don’t have and the other group not willing to give it. A careful examination shows that only a minority of wars are for religious motivations.

    The diff of course is that for over a decade now, the western media have pretended that every time a terrorist who happens to be Muslim commits an act of terrorism, they did it because of their religion.

    Actually, it’s been pretty much the opposite from the conservative perspective. There have been cases where a Muslim man has all but stood up and said “I do this in the name of Islam” and started shooting everyone in sight and we find the media saying things like “his motivations were a mystery”.

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  106. eszett (2,417 comments) says:

    You oppose Morgan, you’re a child killer and hate children and kittens and fluffy bunnies and are next to Hitler.

    Funny that you should mention Hitler, because the pro-gun lobby usually brings him up. “Look Hitler took the guns too.”

    Actually, the distinction is easy if you look at the gun control debate in the US.

    Yes, the distiction is easy to make. Those who are out of arguments and losing the debate are the ones that constantly claim the other side is stifling the debate.

    It’s the piss weak, last restort argument of sore losers.

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  107. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    I really don’t understand your point Reid.

    The point is mate, that just cos they say they’re doing it in the name of “x” doesn’t make it so, does it.

    But yet, apparently, with Muslim terrorism, billions of westerners fail to make that elementary distinction and apparently, really do actually truly believe that it’s not a few individuals with a problem, it’s the entire religion.

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  108. cha (4,036 comments) says:

    “I do this in the name of Islam”

    Bellum iustum or just war theory sounds awfully like Jihad.

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  109. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Yes, the distiction is easy to make. Those who are out of arguments and losing the debate are the ones that constantly claim the other side is stifling the debate.

    It’s the piss weak, last restort argument of sore losers.

    Actually I’m pretty sure sore losers’ last resort is to wave away the substantial points of the other side as inconsequential.

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  110. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Interesting that it’s the Pope, not Richard Dawkins who sits behind bullet proof glass…

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  111. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    But yet, apparently, with Muslim terrorism, billions of westerners fail to make that elementary distinction and apparently, really do actually truly believe that it’s not a few individuals with a problem, it’s the entire religion.

    Interesting that while lecturing us on distinctions, you lump “billions of westerners” (one assumes all of them bar you) as idiots with the exact same view.

    Are you criticising Prosser or joining him?

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  112. Fletch (6,408 comments) says:

    Meanwhile, the Obama administration still calls the attack by a Muslim at Fort Hood, “workplace violence”, even though it’s clear he was Muslim and shouted “Allahu Akbar” as he attacked and killed.

    Three years after the White House arranged a hero’s welcome at the State of the Union address for the Fort Hood police sergeant and her partner who stopped the deadly shooting there, Kimberly Munley says President Obama broke the promise he made to her that the victims would be well taken care of.

    “Betrayed is a good word,” former Sgt. Munley told ABC News in a tearful interview to be broadcast tonight on “World News with Diane Sawyer” and “Nightline.”

    “Not to the least little bit have the victims been taken care of,” she said. “In fact they’ve been neglected.”

    There was no immediate comment from the White House about Munley’s allegations.

    Thirteen people were killed, including a pregnant soldier, and 32 others shot in the November 2009 rampage by the accused shooter, Major Nidal Hasan, who now awaits a military trial on charges of premeditated murder and attempted murder.

    Tonight’s broadcast report also includes dramatic new video, obtained by ABC News, taken in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, capturing the chaos and terror of the day.

    Munley and dozens of other victims have now filed a lawsuit against the military alleging the “workplace violence” designation means the Fort Hood victims are receiving lower priority access to medical care as veterans, and a loss of financial benefits available to those who injuries are classified as “combat related.”

    MORE from ABC News

    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fort-hood-hero-obama-betrayed-victims/story?id=18465024

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  113. chiz (1,145 comments) says:

    Reid:The point is mate, that just cos they say they’re doing it in the name of “x” doesn’t make it so, does it.

    It doesn’t mean they aren’t either. Your point borders on a truism. If some bunch of terrorists engage in a terrorist attack somewhere and then issue a statement about their motives there is, of course, always a logical possibility that they are lying about their motives. But most of the time they turn out to be telling the truth.

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  114. KevinH (1,229 comments) says:

    Firstly Prosser has outed himself as a racist, his political credibility is now non existent, no politician left ,right or conservative would want to be seen with him and he would be a liability on overseas trips.
    Secondly NZ First and Winston Peters have now positioned themselves on the extreme right because they failed to censure Prosser and will lose support as a consequence. Opposition parties now have leverage on Winston.
    Prosser has also outed himself to Kiwiblog, his nom de plume is conspicuously absent on this thread nevertheless it is the one that is consistently racist and is fond of describing other cultures as stone age.
    Finally, the anti muslim rhetoric on this thread is the same old tiresome nonsense repeated many times on this blog, there are extremists in all religions however not all religious people are extremists.

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  115. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    Interesting that while lecturing us on distinctions, you lump “billions of westerners” (one assumes all of them bar you) as idiots with the exact same view.

    Hey it’s a simple observation. You can see it above on this thread. You can see it anytime any discussion of contemporary terrorism comes up. I didn’t invent it, I simply observe it as a real, actual phenomena. If the shoe fits…

    Are you criticising Prosser or joining him?

    I’m observing Prosser is reflecting the same attitudes I have been pointing out.

    It doesn’t mean they aren’t either. Your point borders on a truism. If some bunch of terrorists engage in a terrorist attack somewhere and then issue a statement about their motives there is, of course, always a logical possibility that they are lying about their motives. But most of the time they turn out to be telling the truth.

    chiz the key point is as I said at the beginning. Just because they claim they’re doing it in the name of religion “x” doesn’t make it so. Even if they themselves in fact truly believe they’re doing it because in their minds, their religion approves and authorises it, this still doesn’t mean that in fact, their religion actually does.

    The “truth” is not something subjective notwithstanding Kirekegaard’s rather brilliant observations on the subject. Most people think the “truth” is something that stands apart from perception, it’s inherent in itself. So no, even if they believe it or even if they say it (which is in fact more commonly the case), this doesn’t make what they are telling us, the “truth.”

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  116. CharlieBrown (1,014 comments) says:

    Perhaps they should let airlines make the call. I don’t agree with the comments but can certainly relate to the sentiment behind what the mp said.

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  117. Daigotsu (459 comments) says:

    It’s pretty bloody simple

    Muslims are a threat, and Richard Prosser is right to point it out.

    The politically correct lefties, Winston prominent among them, are so eager to stomp on him.

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  118. Mark (1,488 comments) says:

    Watching theTV news item on Prosser it was interesting to look at the body language of his caucus colleagues. Tension in the NZ First camp perhaps?
    Prosser came across as an idiot of the first order which given The article he wrote simply confirmed what we all suspected.
    Winston has not done himself any favours in theway that he has handled this either.

    Overall a significant fail for NZ First and so early in the year :)

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  119. howdarethey (32 comments) says:

    When people are feeling stressed/under threat, the brain goes into a binary way of perception – an ‘us or them’ mentality. Witness the myriad of information now known about the instances when US troops in Iraq have killed/tortured innocents. In times of war, people are often attacked not because they are a physical threat but because they are a member of a group called ‘the enemy’. Happening a lot more than is reported too I imagine.

    This obviously happens both ways. Can any of you think of a major civil/international conflict free of brutality against the defenceless on all sides?

    Much of the western media, overseas and here, is owned by people who don’t care too much about balance. This is why we now have some people on this blog who don’t seem to understand that so-called ‘Muslim terrorists’ are simply criminals, nothing more. A crime is a crime, no matter the motivation of the criminal. Religion might be claimed as a motivation, but in a pure system of justice it’s a defence argument, nothing more.

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  120. lazza (381 comments) says:

    Mmmm … 117 comments so far to this topic. Now thats a lot, so its worth making a few points Eh?.

    The content ,(surprise/surprise) of this topic ranges from rational to rant, but such is the nature of FREE SPEECH!

    Now here is “the nut”. People must be free and will make up their own minds as to what side of this particular fence they are camped at.

    And in a perfect world, commentators would act so as not to trash the whole process.

    Lets not miss the real point though, merely because of the variable quality of the debate.

    That said, What I/We? really then need to consider is the merit (if any) of the “nut” argument, namely a central proposition hopefully one couched in polite and reasoned terms.

    I would consider the basic human right of Free Speech should/must always allow for the airing of the basic! (nut) proposition! of the/any argument, (setting aside the inevitable mess of noise/predjudice/ill informed views) … supported by inarguable facts, in this case namely …

    “Most airline disasters due to terrorsim are the results of (call it) the illegal inhuman actions of Middle Eastern Males”.

    Now THIS is the key point of the topic. Forget the other noise/rubbish (race/religion/prejudice/world view) … the Lot! … Focus!

    Soooo … It is therefore true is it not? … “That if you are a Middle Eastern Male then terrorist official profiling will inevitably involve you in inconveniences at airport check ins, Right”?.

    Tuff! … as, to be fair, most of you are not terrorists, but hey them’s the breaks,’ its called rational, legally mandated risk management OK?

    Oh BTW … “Others” … non-MEM’s, leave your dinky Swiss Knifes at home fella’s …. and get-a-life.

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  121. howdarethey (32 comments) says:

    lazza

    No no no. All that will happen then, terrorist groups of whatever ilk will recruit Western youth to perform their terrorist acts. Already happening of course. The motivation to do evil comes from within a person’s mind, not from the faith they carry with them. Doesn’t matter what faith a person has, the potential to commit an evil act lies in everyone.

    Promoting policies such as banning Muslim young men from flying would simply raise the sense of injustice felt by Muslims in our country. Those who seek to incite others to commit violence are evil people. Evil people will say whatever they need to to persuade others to do their deeds.

    Blaming religion for evil acts is too easy. Look beyond it to understand why a person might be so angry/ill treated that they decide to act in an evil way.

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  122. Jimmy Smits (246 comments) says:

    NZ First MPs are privately seething at Richard Prosser’s call for Muslims to be banned from Western airlines.

    Privately seething my ass. Winston Peters is eagerly anticipating the latest poll results whilst rubbing his hands together in glee awaiting to see the boost in numbers (probably from the large segment of retarded fundamentalist Christian Kiwiblog commenters) as happened with his anti-Asian rants in 1996.

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  123. ChardonnayGuy (1,207 comments) says:

    And of course, Christians, Hindus and Buddhists don’t have their own fundamentalist and terrorist elements who are also unreconciled to liberal democracy? Newsflash- ever heard of Christian Reconstructionism/theonomy? It believes in anti-abortion terrorism and capital punishment for homosexuality. Or Christian sectarian violence in Nigeria? Or the South African Dutch Reformed Churches role in maintaining apartheid for half a century? Or Serbian Orthodoxy’s role in fomenting the ethnic cleansing, religious persecution and genocide during the Bosnian War? Or Singhalese Buddhist extremism in Sri Lanka? Or right-wing Hindu militia in India?

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  124. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    Yes, there are some Christians who follow some decidedly un-Christian thoughts and practices, to the shame of the majority of true Christians.

    Then there’s the rest of us Christians, who tend to be a damn sight more accepting and tolerant of other faiths than many KB commenters.

    How do some of you feel about the burqa, for example? Reckon we should ban it? What do you think Christians might feel about it? Well here’s one viewpoint:

    … as a Christian, I find it hard to find a reason to ban the burqa in New Zealand. Our Muslim community has never threatened New Zealanders as in other nations. Indeed, the small number of Muslims in New Zealand are peace-loving citizens. The Christian faith calls for Jesus’ followers to accept people despite their sin, let alone their clothing.

    http://www.challengeweekly.co.nz/comment/1631-the-burqa-should-nz-ban-it-mark-mckeown.html

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