Spectrum is not a taonga say Government

February 22nd, 2013 at 1:00 pm by David Farrar

Hamish Fletcher at NZ Herald reports:

The Government says it will not set aside any for Maori when it auctions it off later this year.

In third quarter of this year the Government hopes to allocate parts of the radio spectrum, which will become available after the switchover to digital television.

The allocation of this spectrum will allow telecommunications companies to build fourth generation (4G) mobile networks that provide much faster mobile broadband speeds.

“Indications are that by using the spectrum for 4G mobile networks, we can expect economic benefits for New Zealand of up to $2.4 billion over the next twenty years,” Minister for Communications and Information Technology Amy Adams said today.

I’m pleased to see this decision. It is stretching credibility to say that the electromagnetic spectrum was what people had in mind as a taonga when the Treaty was signed in 1840.

Equally difficult to claim there was customary usage of it under the common law!

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109 Responses to “Spectrum is not a taonga say Government”

  1. RRM (9,834 comments) says:

    LOL – We won’t hear the end of this until millions is given for free. Anything less is racist.

    Stop being so racist.

    Just give it all to the Maori. You know they deserve it.

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  2. Manolo (13,580 comments) says:

    The Stone Agers will claim faraway galaxies are taonga, too. Their greed is insatiable.

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  3. Urban Redneck (234 comments) says:

    James Clerk Maxwell didn’t publish his famous “Maxwell’s Equations” until the 1870’s.

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  4. James Stephenson (2,153 comments) says:

    Well of course, Manolo, they’re like kids. If everytime the foot gets stamped “no” becomes “ok”, this is where we end up.

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  5. Lance (2,635 comments) says:

    I remember a comedian’s line once (maybe Ewen Gilmore?)
    ” Save time with marriage, find a women you really hate and give her half of all you own “.

    This seems eerily similar.

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  6. berend (1,705 comments) says:

    DPF: It is stretching credibility to say that the electromagnetic spectrum was what people had in mind as a taonga when the Treaty was signed in 1840.

    But did Hobbs had that in mind?

    And how come the government suddenly “owns” this spectrum? They’re the guys with the guns, so can extract the money, but where do their ownership rights come from?

    A much fairer way would be that the spectrum belongs to us all, the government sells it on our behalf, and we get returned our money. Instead it goes into propping up failed companies, and we don’t get any decision on where the money is spent.

    So given that the government decides it “owns” it, I see an equally valid argument that Maori claim ownership.

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  7. OTGO (544 comments) says:

    Bugger. I thought I owned the spectrum above my section. There goes my retirement fund.

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  8. lazza (381 comments) says:

    I recall many years ago thinking … “Geez at this rate they will be claiming the airways next”. Well Hellooo!

    This particiular abuse of the Treaty claim rights process is that “bridge too far”.

    To persue this claim would be to severely and adversely impact goodwill for later (planned ) justifiable settlements. And that would be a no winners scenario all around.

    WE … (ALL of us!) are right to draw the line … HERE!

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  9. Right of way is Way of Right (1,121 comments) says:

    Now correct me if I am wrong, but I am sure that astronomers use radio telescopes to detect astronomical bodies that are thousands of light years away, and do so by the radio waves that are emitted from them. These radio waves have been travelling to us from far distant galaxies since before recorded history.

    Not only do they then predate Maori, they predate dinosaurs! So if the radio spectrum existed before the Maori did as a race, then they too would have existed at the time that we all had a common ancestor, somewhere in the rift valley in Africa.

    So, by extrapolation, they already belong to all of us anyway, so why are any of us paying to use mobile phones at all?

    That is the logical final interpretation of the argument being put forward by Maori!

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  10. mikemikemikemike (324 comments) says:

    So what makes it the governments to own/sell/make money from??

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  11. scrubone (3,095 comments) says:

    I believe the reasoning goes that if NZ were not colonized and Maori were running the place, they’d be looking at installing their own cell phone networks of whatever.

    I.e. they only *don’t* own the spectrum because they were colonized out of control of the country.

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  12. gump (1,635 comments) says:

    @Urban Redneck

    I’m pretty sure that Maxwell’s equations existed well before Maxwell published them in 1873.

    Electromagnetism didn’t just appear when the underlying field equations were formalised.

    ——————–

    But I think the Gov has made the right call on this.

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  13. rouppe (967 comments) says:

    So what makes it the governments to own/sell/make money from??

    Probably because governments back till the 1960’s owned and operated a television network that used that spectrum. So now that they no longer need that range to provide TV, it can be sold to folk that can make better use of it.

    I believe the reasoning goes that if NZ were not colonized and Maori were running the place, they’d be looking at installing their own cell phone networks of whatever.

    Before colonisation Maori hadn’t even discovered the wheel. Ship-building consisted of hollowing out logs with a stone adze. As Manolo has intimated, it was colonisation that from a technology perspective took Maori from the stone age to the industrial age, and then onwards to the information age. It is arguable that without colonisation whether Maori would have been able to build a bridge, let alone a cell phone network.

    In fact, bridge building is still a weak point.

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  14. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,888 comments) says:

    I have a compromise which will please everybody.

    Give them one frequency. Just one. The one for Maori Radio.

    You know the one?

    Radio Kotanga.

    Haven’t you seen all those cars driving around with kotanga for aerials?

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  15. Harriet (4,857 comments) says:

    “….Haven’t you seen all those cars driving around with kotanga for aerials?…” Well done. :cool:

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  16. Cunningham (843 comments) says:

    If solar energy becomes more widespread, you watch them try to claim the sun!

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  17. gump (1,635 comments) says:

    @rouppe

    The Maori had fairly advanced boat building skills (as did all of the Pacific people – that’s how they traversed the Pacific).

    It is generally recognised that the design & performance of their sails (at the point of first contact) was far beyond anything the Europeans had developed.

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  18. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    But the govt are giving them 30 million instead ! Why? Separatism at its worst. We are all NZ’ers.

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  19. alwyn (417 comments) says:

    @Cunningham
    But in effect they are claiming the solar energy from the sun.
    It is all electromagnetic radiation , just with most of the energy at different frequencies from that to be used for cellphones.
    The current claim, when agreed to by the Waitangi Tribunal will of course set a precedent for further claims to the visible light frequencies.
    Want to go out in daylight? That will be $1.99 / hour for using the light we own.
    I’m going to sue for causing my sunburn of course.

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  20. rouppe (967 comments) says:

    When comparing a voyage from Polynesia to New Zealand – a one-way trip which did not become a regular occurrence – with a voyage from Europe to New Zealand/Australia and points in between – which is a documented regular occurrence – it stretches my credullity that the former should be considered superior.

    If the Polynesian shipbuilding was “far beyond” anything the Europeans had developed, I would reasonably expect there to be documentation about regular maritime voyages between NZ and those points. The fact that there isn’t suggests the voyage was too daunting to regularly undertake which immediately casts doubt on the notion that the vessel was superior in design and performance.

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  21. Flyer (22 comments) says:

    Just heard a comment on the radio that one of the biggest issues with the Treaty is that there were two materially different versions – English and Maori. If each party signed a different version, doesn’t that mean there actually isn’t a valid agreement?

    Or are we better off pretending it is valid and working through the issues that creates?

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  22. Nigel Kearney (984 comments) says:

    After a court granted Maori control over who is allowed to take people out in boats to look at whales, it became clear that any claim has a chance of success, no matter how ridiculous.

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  23. Doc (91 comments) says:

    Actually, there was only one version – the Maori one. This is what Busby drafted. What Rev. Williams translated and what Hobson signed. This is what was read to all the Chiefs, and is the document that all the chiefs signed (with the exception of a few chiefs in the Waikato)

    It is this exception that has caused all the problems – the actual treaty document had been delayed, so after being read the Maori text if Te Tiriti, someone had a look around for “something to sign”. What they came up with was a bastardisation of the Te Tiriti written by someone else.

    Unfortunately, this document was written into law as being the Official English version.

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  24. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    A conscious decision from the government, and it has NOTHING to do with principles.

    The money anticipated from the specrtum sale is more valuable to them than the likely votes lost by not dishing out spectrum freebies.

    If they knew today that the specrtum was worth $1, then they’d be carving off large blocks and gifting it to iwi at full speed.

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  25. Jack5 (5,053 comments) says:

    Scrubone posted at 1.51:

    I believe the reasoning goes that if NZ were not colonized and Maori were running the place, they’d be looking at installing their own cell phone networks of whatever.

    Do you mean 3G conches with licensed Android?

    But seriously, if NZ was merely conquered and only conquered as you suggest by the use of the word “colonized”, the Treaty of Waitangi is then an irrelevant document, surely? And the question of ownership rights of spectrum or anything else is meaningless.

    If the British hadn’t settled and colonised the then non-nation inhabited by various Polynesian tribes and now known as New Zealand, it would certainly have been colonised by the French, or the Germans (as was Western Samoa), or perhaps the Chinese or Japanese.

    A land occupied by people with no written language, no national unity or political system, and technology that had not yet obtained the wheel, never could have withstood the tide of modernity from the outside world

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  26. GPT1 (2,118 comments) says:

    So why is $30m being handed over?

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  27. Jack5 (5,053 comments) says:

    Gump posted at 2.46:

    The Maori had fairly advanced boat building skills…

    He also claimed Maori had the world’s best sails.

    The Polynesians were great blue-water sailors, no doubt about it. But their craft were still pretty basic.

    No Polynesian outrigger canoe, in design or in historic impact, came anywhere near the Greek trireme of 2500 years earlier, IMHO.

    European sailing vessels — and Chinese junks — were vastly superior to Polynesian vessels by the time of Captain Cook, three centuries ago.

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  28. dime (9,856 comments) says:

    headlines 2 weeks from now:

    “Iwi claim using the 4g spectrum has upset a well known taniwha in the bay of plenty”..

    “National pays $80 million to maori to placate taniwha in bay of plenty*

    “3 month old baby beaten to death”

    “its whiteys fault”

    “gimme gimme gimme”

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  29. Jack5 (5,053 comments) says:

    APOLOGY! WITHDRAWAL! CORRECTION!

    Talk about egg on my face. I didn’t fully read the piece in the Hooerald about the Government, Maori and the spectrum. I was so pleased I glanced at the heading and first sentence or two and read no more. Then I shot off my mouth in the general thread and here implying how good it was the Government was standing up to unreasonable, illogical, unjustifiable Maori claims for a share of the spectrum being freed up by moving TV from analogue to digital transmisson..

    I’ve just read the report in detail and noticed it includes a Government bribe of $30 million offered to Maori in lieu to “support initiatives such as those to improve digital literacy, scholarships, broadband for marae, and ‘apps’ that supported Maori language content.”

    I take back my praise for National and Adams. Sorry to my fellow blogaholics.

    The truth is this offer to Maori is racist, unfair, gutless, and it stinks!

    This is racism, no question.

    Tom Pullar-Streckar has a good take on it:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/8340171/Maori-may-split-over-radio-spectrum

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  30. RF (1,380 comments) says:

    Bloody hell. The stone age tribes are at it again. Thats a quantum leap from savages who did not know what a wheel was to claiming the spectrum.

    Greedy pricks. What a joke.

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  31. UrbanNeocolonialist (286 comments) says:

    rouppe: Do not underestimate their prowess in long distance ocean travel and navigation. They got all the way to south america, got to know the locals, then learnt how to cultivate and store the kumara (and likely gave them chickens) and then made it all the way back to their tiny polynesian islands (best guess is aparently the cook islands).

    That is between 3000-6000km each way, probably a tougher trip than crossing the atlantic, and done using a stone age technology base.

    Polynesians also settled in madagascar and even after Europeans arrive they were used to perform mail runs throughout polynesia due to their craft being several times as fast as the European tubs.

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  32. Jack5 (5,053 comments) says:

    UrbanNeoColonialist posted at 4.53:

    rouppe: Do not underestimate their prowess in long distance ocean travel and navigation. They got all the way to south america, got to know the locals, then learnt how to cultivate and store the kumara (and likely gave them chickens) and then made it all the way back to their tiny polynesian islands (best guess is aparently the cook islands).

    Regarding Polynesian sea traffic to South America: the question is how many vessels made it there and how many got back? If it was one in 500, the navigation and sea craft level were extremelyl basic..

    Thor Heyerdahl crossed the Pacific from South America on a raft in 1947, no problem.

    Where did you get the Polynesian settlement of Madagascar from?

    Malagsy, the people of Madagascar, speak a language that is of the Malay language group, as Maori and other Polynesian languages are. However, the linguists’ seem to conclude that Malagsy is most closely related to the Barito-group languages of Borneo. Recent DNA research indicates the origins of the Malagsy people as being from Bantu-speaking Africa and Indonesia, with strains from India and Arabia. No mention about Polynesian influence.

    The kumara, or Pacific sweet potato (Ipomomea batatas) was the subject of an interesting computer simulation in 2008 by Alvaro Montenegro, Chris Avis, and Andrew Weaver. This indicated drifting vessels from Central America could easily have taken the sweet potato to the Marshall Islands.

    You may be right about chickens. Once again, however, a few or even one canoe arriving in South America from Polynesia with chickens, doesn’t prove regular two-way traffic.

    It’s a logical jump, UrbanNeoColonialist, to assume that whomever took the South-East Asia origin hens from Polynesia to South America (if anyone did), then also sailed back with the first kumara. It’s another assumption that the sailors in any exchange were Polynesians, rather than South Americans.

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  33. Johnboy (16,077 comments) says:

    What a rip-off! Smoke signals and waving the bottom side of flax fronds all come under the scope of low-frequency spectrum! :)

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  34. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    I’ve just read the report in detail and noticed it includes a Government bribe of $30 million offered to Maori in lieu to “support initiatives such as those to improve digital literacy, scholarships, broadband for marae, and ‘apps’ that supported Maori language content.”

    The point is Jack, why should the taxpayer fund those things especially for Maori? Why is it the taxpayer’s responsibility to fund courses on say, “digital literacy?” Especially when everyone knows this will consist of a course developed by a Maori training provider who wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for the taxpayer-funded contracts they “tender” for. Who will arrive on a Marae visit in their taxpayer-funded car, with heaps of taxpayer-funded “koha” for the Marae, with course-attendees who’ve received a taxpayer-funded ride to said marae, who’ll go to the course and work on the taxpayer-funded computers as they look at the trainer’s projected screen on a taxpayer-funded data projector, and learn nothing whatsoever as they move through the intricacies of “the interweb” and “Microsoft Office.”

    And so on for the other subsidies you raise, and many many more that you don’t. How come a 150 year-old document “entitles” the descendants of one side of that to all of this, and requires the descendants of the other side to pay for all of that? Especially when the descendants of the other side who have apparently, to pay for all of this, been giving back land and “koha” hand over fist for the last thirty years already?

    Especially when most young Maori today work in the CBD’s of every town in the land alongside the rest of us and they’re paid the same as us, if not more (if they work in a govt dept, because they’re special Maori), and who are perfectly capable, as are the rest of us, of teaching their parents and grandparents about said interweb and Microsoft Office, anytime they so chose to do.

    Or in your world, is asking those sorts of questions unspeakable wacism that needs to be instantly condemned?

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  35. Gavfaemonty (61 comments) says:

    Not your best work DPF. I’d have thought that property rights and being able to rely on contracts would be front and centre. It’s no matter that Maori or anyone else could have or did foresee radio spectrum as valuable; the deal was that everything’s theirs until it’s bought off them, and the radio spectrum wasn’t.

    That aside, there’s a whole load of racist shite on this thread that I’d otherwise only expect to hear over a dinner table in Brisbane – shows how you’ve dog-whistled. Those posting ‘stone age’, ‘savages’, ‘smoke signals’ and so on ought to be looking at a ban FFS.

    @Doc – correctamundo. As you point out, liability for errors in contract translation lie with the contracting party that undertakes the translation, in this case the Crown. I.e. the Maori version of the treaty trumps the English one.

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  36. Johnboy (16,077 comments) says:

    That is assuming that the Murri version was written in the original characters of the Murri written language of course Gaviamonty! :)

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  37. Longknives (4,690 comments) says:

    ” Those posting ‘stone age’, ‘savages’, ‘smoke signals’ and so on ought to be looking at a ban FFS.”

    You forgot ‘baby killers’…

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  38. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    It’s no matter that Maori or anyone else could have or did foresee radio spectrum as valuable

    No of course not. Well… not since Elias got installed as CJ anyway, right? But seriously, don’t you mean “couldn’t have?” Because they didn’t did they. No, they didn’t. Oh dear.

    the deal was that everything’s theirs until it’s bought off them, and the radio spectrum wasn’t.

    So we’re talking space, the planets, atmosphere, electromagnetism, atomic particles, minerals 200 miles off the coastline, what?

    Help us out here Gav. Vent your wisdom and don’t forget to include the all important word “why” in relation to the subject of your pontification.

    P.S. Just for reference, is it possible to raise any objections to whatever it is you think is the true and just position, without being a “racist shite” or does that just lie inherently within the realm of being “an objector?”

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  39. Longknives (4,690 comments) says:

    and ‘Cannibals’…

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  40. Gavfaemonty (61 comments) says:

    Ok, I’ll bite. Article 2 is pretty straightforward yes? There’s no qualification about ‘possessions’ that says ‘except the bits that you’re currently unaware are valuable’ and we wouldn’t expect there to be because that’s not how English common or contract law works.

    IMO any ‘outraged of Canterbury’ types should feel free to move to Australia / US / etc. if you want to live in a country that doesn’t honour its deals. I’ll stick here and try and not feel like a 21st century colonist.

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  41. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “I’ll stick here and try and not feel like a 21st century colonist.”

    No danger of that. With your disgusting attacks on freedom of expression, the main impression you give is of a 20th century Stalinist.

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  42. Gavfaemonty (61 comments) says:

    @Redbaiter

    Utter shite. I’d say racists should be free to express themselves as they please. And operators of privately-owned, funded, and operated forums should be free to decline to entertain racists as they please. Or would you have it otherwise?

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  43. Johnboy (16,077 comments) says:

    If you rub a Huia feather on some Pounamu and use a Rata vine as an aerial I have heard you can transmit Kapa Haka at enough volume to wake the dead at the local Urupa! :)

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  44. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    Racist= anyone who disagrees with current progressive anti-white sentiment.

    You’re a Stalinist.

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  45. Longknives (4,690 comments) says:

    “I’ll stick here and try and not feel like a 21st century colonist.”

    You just keep flagellating yourself raw for the henious crime of not being Maori mate…hell, I bet if you ask them real nicely Hone and his proud, dignified ‘Whanau’ will give you a kicking for free….

    The rest of us just laugh ourselves silly at the most arrogant, self righteous and downright deluded race of people on the earth.
    Think about it- anyone else claiming that they and they alone ‘owned the sun the moon and the stars’ would get laughed off the fucking planet…

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  46. Johnboy (16,077 comments) says:

    “Think about it- anyone else claiming that they and they alone ‘owned the sun the moon and the stars’ would get laughed off the fucking planet…”

    Bullshit, what about the Iranians and the North Koreans……Oh!….They have!……OK then… ! :)

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  47. Gavfaemonty (61 comments) says:

    @Redbaiter – fair enough that you didn’t actually answer the point, because you’re screwed on the logic.

    Re definition of racist, wrong again. You’re coming across as a complete clown. We all know what racism is and it’s disgusting and there’s a fair amount of it on this thread from people who should be ashamed of themselves. Fact is the treaty has nothing to do with race. It’s a contract between the Crown and lots of tribes. I’m of the (quaint?) view that deals are deals and property rights are property rights. You seem to be of the view that brown people have less of those rights than white people, which is at once both odd and disgusting.

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  48. Johnboy (16,077 comments) says:

    Gavi old boy if you can come up with my share of the original blankets, beads and musket balls you can have my share of Aotearoa back.

    If not stop talking shit about what is owed. :)

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  49. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “We all know what racism ”

    How about you speak for yourself arsehole? I don’t come on this forum to have ignorant bigots like you tell me what I think.

    You reek of Stalinism, which I’ll define for you in this context, in that you automatically decline and consign to political illegitimacy any view other than your own precious and trendy uninformed half educated well indoctrinated anti-white view.

    You’re the degenerate product of a failed state, a failed education system and a failed social system, and in your flatulent ignorance, you have destroyed this country in much the same way your ideological forbears destroyed the Russian society. (search it on Wikipedia)

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  50. Gavfaemonty (61 comments) says:

    @Redbaiter – lol, the Internet hardman :-) Did you have a stepdad that dressed as Stalin and snuck into your bedroom at night? That aside you’re a liar because you do know what racism is, everyone does; and a troll because you know that I’ve said nothing race-specific including anything anti-anyone.

    The only thing I think you’ve said on this thread that’s correct is that I’m the degenerate product of a failed state. Scotland, specifically.

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  51. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    that’s not how English common or contract law works.

    Gav believe it or not you don’t get to write an open cheque in contract law. While the deal doesn’t have to be equal provided there’s consideration, it can’t be open-ended, subject to redefinition ad infinitum.

    That’s the realm of constitutional law and that’s why Lange opened the door to it in the 80’s which has now resulted in endless redefinition by a tiny coterie of infected weeping and wailing judges.

    However Lange miscalculated since while he was brilliant he was also naive as to the extent to which one of the parties would take undue advantage of the vaguery and he failed to think through the “what if” scenario, being the nice guy he was at the time he implemented that retrospection.

    It’s now at a point where 98% of judges and 12% of the population think one way on it and 88% of the population think another way on it. That’s the state of play, as of today, 2013.

    Since it’s a constitutional issue, naturally ALL of us have a stake in it and ALL of us (including the 88%) need to be taken into account.

    The 88% are and have been quite happy to see redress. However the 88% aren’t happy to see for example, Crown Law historians who know the real history be overruled by oral history made up on the spot which contradicts all the documentation. This is not justice. It’s not.

    And when it concerns constitutional matters, this IS where it’s at, today.

    Maori, if they weren’t so interested in nepotism, infighting and all the rest of it, would do well to start a grassroots groundswell amongst their 12% with the objective of ending this gravy train before it does permanent damage to the fabric of the nation. For it’s come to the point where the sense of entitlement is overwhelming, and frankly verging on the ridiculous, such as the munting of the 12% over the electromagnetic spectrum.

    The 12% don’t seem to have realised that they and more importantly their children will still have to live with the 88% after all this is over, for the rest of their lives. And more importantly the 12% are passing this legacy onto their children. The cash will be quickly spent and dissipated, the sentiment will live on for many generations.

    The support of the tiny coterie of judicial officials amongst the 88% seems to have made them hallucinate that everything’s OK and the gravy train will continue forever. So that when for example genetic research results in a therapy for say pancreatic cancer, that DNA will also become a judicially enforced taonga as well, which will mean that of course, the 88% must pay for the section 12% who suffer from that to get their therapy, because DNA is a taonga.

    This is what the 12% are angling for Gav. On a permanent, ongoing basis, as new scientific advancements are made, once again a new claim will be lodged. To me it makes no sense, given we’re all going to be living with each other.

    It’s time, in other words, for Maori themselves to call a halt. If they don’t, others will. It won’t be my generation, but it may be the generation currently in their thirties, who, on top of all the huge expense of the baby boomers, will also be forced to fork out every so often for yet another dollop of “justice” going largely not to people who deserve it, who’ve arrived at their wretched state through no fault of their own because of oppression, but rather, to people whose circumstances have been bought about by their sloth, gluttony or other foolishness and who now want a handout from “the man” because they’ve been told by others in their 12% that they deserve it, it’s their “right.”

    That to me Gav, is a nuts way to conduct a society down the track, because you can see what it’s going to generate, if you have the slightest appreciation of human nature. The way I see it, the ball is in the court of the 12% and this next decade or so will be quite critical in terms of how its played because so far, it’s been played in terms of the way Hone and the other racist motherfuckers within the 12% play it. I only hope there are enough sensible and wise people in the 12% who see what I’ve outlined above, who can tell the racist motherfuckers like Hone to shut the fuck up, sit down, and don’t say anything at all, ever again, about anything.

    But will that happen? Not looking hopeful, is it.

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  52. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “That aside you’re a liar because you do know what racism is”

    I know what you say it is, you brain damaged moron.

    And if you’re from Scotland you should fuck off back there. You commies have done so much damage to that country you think you would have learned something. Instead you come out here and try and destroy our country the same way. Fuck off back into the cave you were most likely born in.

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  53. Gavfaemonty (61 comments) says:

    @Red – you’re an idiot. Not one single engagement on content, just hysterical abuse.

    @Reid – thanks for actually engaging on the subject matter, but I don’t agree with your points. You’re still taking a race-based view (88 / 12) when that just isn’t the point. One legal entity (the Crown) struck a deal with other legal entities (many iwi or more specifically the iwis’ chiefs) that included a clear understanding that what’s theirs remains theirs until / unless they sell it. It’s pretty simple. Iwi aren’t asking for even close to the deal – they’re recognising reality and trying to get a small part of what would be awarded under normal contract law.

    We do have an alternative. We could tell them to fuck off and legislate to null the treaty. I don’t think we should do that.

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  54. Johnboy (16,077 comments) says:

    Apologies for Red Gavi. Whenever he hears “Scots” he thinks of George Galloway! :)

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  55. Gavfaemonty (61 comments) says:

    Heh heh. Gorgeous George of course is MP for Bradford West. I think the Wegians worked him out a while ago.

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  56. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “Not one single engagement on content,”

    What “content” have you provided? Childish repetition of tired old left wing talking points that have been done to death and then calling everyone who disagrees with you racist.

    Only in the left wing fantasy world you clearly dwell in could that fifth grade rubbish qualify as “content”.

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  57. Jack5 (5,053 comments) says:

    Gavfaemonty posted at 7.35:

    I’d have thought that property rights and being able to rely on contracts would be front and centre. It’s no matter that Maori or anyone else could have or did foresee radio spectrum as valuable; the deal was that everything’s theirs until it’s bought off them, and the radio spectrum wasn’t….

    The treaty never applied to all property. For example, Maoris’ slaves were never regarded by the colonial power as legitimate property of anyone. No modern day activists have claimed compensation for the loss of these walking chattels, so obviously Maori agree this form of property has lapsed.

    It’s preposterous to think, that decades before Marconi, that Maori society, still in a very early stage of development, could negotiate future rights of unseen technologies such as radio,TV, cellphones.

    This is brownmail. I don’t blame Maori for piling up claim after claim, and even admitting settlements will never be final. In the Pavlov dog tradition, wimpy liberals ring the bell to Maori with concessions of tens of millions here, and tens of millions there.

    At least Don Brash realised there was a counter-political resource to tap as an alternative to perpetually caving in to an ethnic group which, under minority-favouring MMP, has in effect super votes at elections.

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  58. Johnboy (16,077 comments) says:

    Ye widnae be a Gavin frae Montrose wid ye Gavi?

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  59. cha (3,943 comments) says:

    Mr Jefferson, take it away.

    I set out on this ground which I suppose to be self evident, “that the earth belongs in usufruct to the living;” that the dead have neither powers nor rights over it. The portion occupied by an individual ceases to be his when himself ceases to be, and reverts to the society. If the society has formed no rules for the appropriation of its lands in severalty, it will be taken by the first occupants.

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  60. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    Anyone can post links to other people’s work or text Cha. It’s the habit of a feeble minded intellectual coward.

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  61. Johnboy (16,077 comments) says:

    What’s “usufruct”?

    I think I’d like to try it though I’m not really sure! :)

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  62. Jack5 (5,053 comments) says:

    Gavfaemonty posted at 8.43:

    ..I’m the degenerate product of a failed state. Scotland, specifically…

    Don’t be so hard on yourself, Gavfaemonty. About one in three of us here have genes from Scottish ancestors, and many of us (on both sides of the debate) have Maori genes, too.

    As an outsider looking in, Scotland has some of the same issues. Anti-English, yet I think DNA shows most people still in Scotland (excepting the Irish in Glasgow) are virtually genetically indistinguishable from the English, and Lallans (is that what they call Scots language) is a dialect of English, pretty similar to the dialects of northern England. So you have to assert your identity, as do Maori being absorbed into a larger multi-ethnic group in NZ.

    But heh! If the Brits reconfigured NZ, what didn’t the Lowland Scots do to Ulster under Cromwell?

    The popular writer Gladwell reckons Lowland Scots and their descendants the Ulster Protestants are about the world’s most warlike people. Make Maori look like pussy cats.

    ALSO Cha in his 9.33 post quoted a “Mr Jefferson”. Was that the black-slave owning Mr JEfferson, Cha?

    From the same Jefferson letter to Madison that you quote, Cha, comes this:

    On similar ground it may be proved that no society can make a perpetual constitution, or even a perpetual law. The earth belongs always to the living generation..

    So the treaty is not for ever, in your view, Cha?

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  63. Gavfaemonty (61 comments) says:

    @Red – just for laughs, what do you do for a living? I’m thinking that you’re an unemployed 19yo daughter of a broken marriage between a white supremacist little-willy-compensating bikie twat and a druggie hoor.

    @Jacks – of course the Iwi that signed the treaty (not Maori, different thing…) recognised that those forms of property were no longer legit, because they subjected themselves to English law (Articles One and Three) in order to have their property rights recognised (Article Two). And, as I’ve said above there’s nothing at all anywhere in (English) law that says you need to know the future value of something when you agree its ownership. It’s plain nonsense to argue that ‘they’ want something back that ‘they’ never gave in the first place.

    BTW hours later I’m still to get a coherent, logical, principled answer from this generally property rights loving, contract law loving group of people as to why this most important of contracts shouldn’t be honoured.

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  64. Graeme2 (102 comments) says:

    Definition of “Taonga” in the 1820’s as provided by Ngapuhi chief Hongi Hika “Property obtained by the spear” (Sounds right Tao is Maori for spear)
    Definition as per Dictionary compliled by Williams in 1840’s “Property”
    Definition as defined by Waitangi tribunal claims process “treasures”
    Current definition ” Anything Maori Activists feel like claiming”

    It seems to me that the majority of posters on this thread hold similar views and would agree that the treaty gravy train and the divisive separatist course we are on needs to be stopped. May I suggest a couple of ideas that might help get things started.
    Sign the “Declaration of Equality” on the NZCPR website.
    Classify yourself as a New Zealander under “other” when you complete your census form.
    Write to your MP and local Newspaper.

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  65. Gavfaemonty (61 comments) says:

    Johnboy, aye, I might be, but it’s got to be basic forum rules that we don’t out pseudonyms. If you want to PM fine, I’ll give you an email address. No linking of ‘real’ identities in public though please.

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  66. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “just for laughs,”

    Like all commies, you’re completely fucked once any of your completely false premises are rejected. So starting with racist, you moved on to liar, and then insane, and now the latest puerile drivel.

    The comment before you were complaining of lack of content.

    Tell me this.

    What would be the point of arguing a case with a rank hypocrite and someone so obviously and pitifully unprepared for real debate and real diversity of opinion?

    (I sell slaves in the Sudan)

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  67. Johnboy (16,077 comments) says:

    Ach aye the noo. I’ll have tae think on that ye ken! :)

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  68. Johnboy (16,077 comments) says:

    Do you sell any in Naenae Red. I need some good staff? :)

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  69. cha (3,943 comments) says:

    Jefferson writes that unless laws are made specifically determining ownership the beneficiaries of property are the descendants of the original occupants.

    And if that’s true the government must make laws granting ownership to us all or, like it or not, the owners of the G4 spectrum are the descendants of the original occupants.

    Yes or no R?.

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  70. Gavfaemonty (61 comments) says:

    @Red. You’re a loon. Every post I’ve done has been in support of front-and-centre property rights and respect for contract law. I’m a small business owner paying a good chunk of corporate and personal tax.

    What’s your story? Professional Internet hardman?

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  71. Johnboy (16,077 comments) says:

    Was that Jefferson Davis or William Jefferson Clinton cha? :)

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  72. KevinH (1,219 comments) says:

    A Judicial Review will have to be called by the Maori Council to test the Crowns argument in court. The Crown is not in a position to unilaterally determine what a taonga is without consulting Maori, Article 2 of the Treaty of Waitangi does afford Maori some rights in this discussion.

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  73. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    Joe McStalin- When I am not selling slaves I hang out on blogs and destroy communists with cutting repartee.

    Cha- will respond to that utter troll style rubbish later. (Cellphone)

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  74. Johnboy (16,077 comments) says:

    It’s difficult to get good hardworking staff in Naenae these days! :)

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  75. cha (3,943 comments) says:

    So the treaty is not for ever, in your view, Cha

    I think the treaty is unfinished business.

    It was the solution to a particular dilemma, the advance of the French and the need for the British to shore up an alliance with Maori, but never progressed beyond the original convenience.

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  76. Jack5 (5,053 comments) says:

    Cha at 10.08:

    …the owners of the G4 spectrum are the descendants of the original occupants…

    Says slave-owning Jefferson. As a layman I didn’t realise Jefferson’s views had standing in our legal tradition. Tell us more about this, Cha. Though I like his view: The earth belongs always to the living generation.

    There is no world consensus that radio-frequencies can fit the traditional concept of ownable property. Radio-frequency management models are of two types: licensing and allowing private ownership to arise for parts of the spectrum. This debate hasn’t been held in NZ. We seem to have just drifted down the licensing path.

    Debate, as in this thread, is overshadowed by whether Maori will be handed brownmail rights to a sector of the spectrum because they have realised there’s a new stagecoach to hold up and are setting up an ambush.

    Of greater importance for New Zealand’s future is whether the spectrum will be overwhelmingly held by
    two big players – Telecom and Vodafone – shutting out small innovative firms. That’s for another thread, another day.

    As for Cha at 10.24: I think the treatyis unfinished business.
    Blackmail/brownmail never is. Once you pay the Danegeld, you never get rid of the Dane, as Kipling said.

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  77. gump (1,635 comments) says:

    @rouppe

    The traditional Polynesian crab claw rig is more efficient than the European Bermuda rigs that we are still using today.

    This is not my opinion. It’s been empirically proven in numerous wind-tunnel experiments.

    Even Cook was surprised by the performance of native craft and wrote admiringly of them in his journals.

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  78. Jack5 (5,053 comments) says:

    What sort of sails are they using on the America’s Cup boats, Cap’n Gump?

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  79. kowtow (8,323 comments) says:

    National saying no to the Maoris?’

    An election must be coming up and they’re returning to the base they’ve been ignoring. Cynical bastards.

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  80. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    Cha, there is one word that covers every argument relating to the Treaty of Waitangi, the nonsense that it is the “nation’s founding document”, that it represents the union of two seperate governments based on race, that it grants special rights to one shadowy ethnically seperate group within our society, that the rest of the country owes that group a massive debt that can only be repaid by handing them billions of dollars.

    The word is Myth.

    The whole scene is a completely false social construct that has only arisen as a result of this country’s misguided infatuation with big government. Take away 90% of the government structure, take away 90% of the money we spend on this destructive and false artifice, and the “Treaty” industry will die the natural death it deserves.

    The truth is IT DOES NOT EXIST.

    It temporarily stands astride our country like a degenerate beast only because money is stolen from you Cha, and stolen from me, to fund it. By a criminal political class.

    Without that money the whole corrupt Potemkin village would melt away like ice in the sun.

    I’ve got no interest in batting ping pong balls back and forward with a Scottish Marxist whom we should never have allowed into our country because IT IS ALL BULLSHIT..!!!

    Cure the big government disease and we will simultaneously cure the treaty problem.

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  81. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    Kowtow- they’d didn’t say no, the cowards bought the racists off with $30 million.

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  82. cha (3,943 comments) says:

    Says slave-owning Jefferson

    SFW, hardly relevant.

    Though I like his view: The earth belongs always to the living generation

    Me too but I’m afraid we’re up against some who insist that documents remain in the time that they were written.

    Once you pay the Danegeld, you never get rid of the Dane, as Kipling said.

    All the more reason for parliament to drag the damn thing into the 21st century.

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  83. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    @Reid – thanks for actually engaging on the subject matter, but I don’t agree with your points. You’re still taking a race-based view (88 / 12) when that just isn’t the point. One legal entity (the Crown) struck a deal with other legal entities (many iwi or more specifically the iwis’ chiefs) that included a clear understanding that what’s theirs remains theirs until / unless they sell it.

    I’m afraid Gav you’ve missed my point, which was it’s not a legal issue. It’s not a dry, obtuse set of academic arguments settled in arcane fora by idiots learned people juxtaposing on behalf of the great unwashed.

    No.

    It’s not about that, at all. And whether it’s this spectrum issue or the foreshore issue or any of the other issues, it never has been about “the law.”

    This is because IT’S CONSTITUTIONAL.

    And when it’s constitutional, it cuts right through the bullshit promulgated by highly paid self-righteous pontificating up themselves arseholes in suits arguing the matter before a court and goes to the very heartbeat of the nation. And it’s that to which I was referring above. And THAT’S the issue that’s coming to a head and that’s why the law has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

    And Maori have mistakenly formed the view that because they’re winning in the legal fora, thanks to the hand-wringing, clothes-rending 98% of judges who just can’t bear the human twagedy, they think they’re winning in the court of public opinion as well. And they’re not, and that’s where they need to win. That’s my point.

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  84. gump (1,635 comments) says:

    @Jack5

    That’s a trick question.

    The America’s Cup AC45 and AC72 boats don’t have conventional sails. Their mainsails are rigid wingsails – which are built-up structures with an airfoil cross-section (much like an airplane wing). Having said that, they do carry conventional gennakers and jibs.

    But putting that to one side, I was specifically talking about Polynesian sail technology at the point of first contact.

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  85. Gavfaemonty (61 comments) says:

    @Reid. Hmmmmm.

    I doubt iwi are under any illusion about how their claims are though of. Most claims BTW are pretty simple affairs – an iwi gifted land for a school and grounds in 1920, the school is closed in 1960 and the Crown keeps the land, the iwi says ‘oi, let’s be having it back’, the Crown says ‘oops, it’s now 50 houses beside the lake’.

    Again, it’s not about race, it’s about property rights.

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  86. UpandComer (528 comments) says:

    At Gavfaemonty – Reid is correct, you cannot have a contract in common law that simply states ‘we get everything and anything that can be described or defined until the end of time until we sell it, in return for some specific consideration’. That’s just one of basic C’s of contract law – Certainty. If you actually want to source the thing that gives you your opinion, it’s a phrase in the State Owned Enterprises Act that talks about ensuring all legislation is consistent with the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. It was then an activist Court of Appeal that just made them up, basing them for the sake of legitimacy on what bits and pieces of international law and common law precedent would fit their worldview. Hence you have this view that the Treaty is infinite, both in time and content – which is a complete nonsense, and should never have been conferred by the Court. There are so many legal problems with your simplistic analysis, I don’t really have the time to correct them. But, suffice to say, to simply state that the entire treaty industry is a matter for contract law is, really, pretty fucking retarded.

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  87. Doc (91 comments) says:

    @ Gavfaemonkey “One legal entity (the Crown) struck a deal with other legal entities (many iwi or more specifically the iwis’ chiefs) that included a clear understanding that what’s theirs remains theirs until / unless they sell it. It’s pretty simple.”

    This is not the same as saying “Every single aspect (physical or otherwise) of New Zealand is hereby decreed to be owned by Maori until it is specifically sold by them.”

    Te Tiriti in fact says precisely the opposite – that the country was ceded ENTIRELY to the Crown. Forever. With the exception of the lands, dwellings and property that belonged to the people of New Zealand at the time.

    Here is the text:
    First Article.

    “Ko te tuatahi Ko nga Rangatira o te Wakaminenga, me nga Rangatira katoa hoki,kihai I uru ki taua Wakaminenga, ka tuku rawa atu ki te Kuini o Ingarani ake tonu atu, te Kawanatanga katoa o ratou wenua.”

    “Here’s the chiefs of the Assemblage, and all the chiefs who have not joined the Assemblage mentioned, cede to the utmost, to the Queen of England forever continually to the utmost, the whole Governorship of their lands.”

    Second Article.

    “Ko te Kuini o Ingarani ka wakarite ka wakaae ki nga Rangatira, ki nga Hapu, ki nga tangata katoa o Nu Tirani, te tino Rangatiratanga o o ratou wenu o ratou kainga, me o ratou taonga katoa.”

    “Here’s the Queen of England arranges and confirms to the chiefs, to all the men of New Zealand the entire chieftainship of their lands, their villages, and all their property.”

    So yes – it’s pretty simple :-)

    The 4G radio spectrum is not ‘land’ nor ‘village’ nor ‘property’. It’s not even a natural resource like Turia is claiming. (No more than the right to sing a B-flat note is a ‘natural resource’) It’s about governance of the frequency range – nothing else.

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  88. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Te Tiriti in fact says precisely the opposite – that the country was ceded ENTIRELY to the Crown.

    No, Tuhoi never signed, the country was not ceded in entirety. Hobson lied about that.

    It’s not even a natural resource like Turia is claiming.

    Of course it is a natural resource. It wasn’t created by an act of parliament, is it of the same nature as air and water.

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  89. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “Of course it is a natural resource. It wasn’t created by an act of parliament, is it of the same nature as air and water.”

    Wrong. It’s a measurement of the frequency of radio waves produced by a transmitter and picked up by a receiver. It’s therefore a man made event.

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  90. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Redbaiter, scientific conventions about a thing are not the same as the thing in itself. According to your logic, air pressure is man made because kiloPascals are man made.

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  91. Jack5 (5,053 comments) says:

    Posts from Gavfaemonty (“it’s not about race, it’s about property rights”) seem very legalistic for the views of a small business owner. Sure your business isn’t contracting services to Waitangi Treaty claimants, Gavfaemonty?

    Gavfaemonty, perhaps you can tell us of any differences in commercial law of Scotland from commercial law of England and of New Zealand? We mostly know of the third “not proven” jury verdict choice. It would be quite interesting to hear of any differences in Scots contract law.

    As a layman, I don’t understand current Maori negotiators who try to argue that seeking spectrum rights is just maintenance of their property rights. The know the notion among Maori of property, let alone property rights, was vague at the time of British settlement and the Treaty of Waitangi. How could the concept been otherwise with only a recent written language created by missionaries and no national government and not even the idea of a bureaucracy.

    Maori notion of “property” seems to mean anything today’s brownmailers want it to mean. Pre-modern (that is pre-treaty) Maori of course had no land registry system, no title system, no records of ownership.

    The nearest thing to records were oral hand-me-down traditions. In any society these are untrustworthy. In Maori society the hand-me down stories must have been further muddled by continual inter-tribe warfare entailing displacement of other tribes and hapu. This must have left continuing and proliferating theories about who really held ownership if this was considered equivalent to occupation. Slavery additionally complicated the picture, as those slaves who were unfreed and uneaten would typically have been the the previous “property owners” or “occupiers”. Their descendants would have wanted these rights back.

    Can a primitive society such as that of Maori have had any concept at all of contract law beyond the traditon of utu?

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  92. Jack5 (5,053 comments) says:

    UglyTruth (we won’t argue about which part of this pen name is true) posted at 12.38:

    ….Of course it is a natural resource. It wasn’t created by an act of parliament, is it
    of the same nature as air and water.

    So the brownmailers say they own the very air all New Zealanders breathe.

    Apartheid was minor compared with what these Treaty claimants want.

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  93. Graeme2 (102 comments) says:

    @ Ugly Truth & Gavfaemonty

    It may be a good idea for you folk to do some reading on what really happened in this country both before and after the treaty.
    Ian Wishart in “The Great Divide” gives some good examples of how our so called experts such as Orange and King have sanitised and distorted history. He does this by comparing what they wrote to the source documents. John Robinson in “The Corruption of NZ Democracy A Treaty Overview” gives an example of the workings of the Waitangi Tribunal, where areport that was supplied had to be changed if they didn’t suit the claimants case.
    The march towards separatism by these Maori fundamentalists has gone too far already based on a distorted and incorrect view of our history and a fantasy interpretation of the treaty.

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  94. Graeme2 (102 comments) says:

    Some of you may have missed my earlier post at 9.45 last night. As it was my first post by the time it was moderated it was well up the list of comments. Here it is again if you did miss it.

    Definition of “Taonga” in the 1820′s as provided by Ngapuhi chief Hongi Hika “Property obtained by the spear” (Sounds right Tao is Maori for spear)
    Definition as per Dictionary compliled by Williams in 1840′s “Property”
    Definition as defined by Waitangi tribunal claims process “treasures”
    Current definition ” Anything Maori Activists feel like claiming”

    It seems to me that the majority of posters on this thread hold similar views and would agree that the treaty gravy train and the divisive separatist course we are on needs to be stopped. May I suggest a couple of ideas that might help get things started.
    Sign the “Declaration of Equality” on the NZCPR website.
    Classify yourself as a New Zealander under “other” when you complete your census form.
    Write to your MP and local Newspaper.

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  95. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “Write to your MP and local Newspaper.”

    It is your MP and local newspaper who are mostly responsible for this shit. You won’t get anywhere appealing to them.

    Dump your MP and dump your newspaper.

    Then you might get some of the change you yearn for.

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  96. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “Redbaiter, scientific conventions about a thing are not the same as the thing in itself. According to your logic, air pressure is man made because kiloPascals are man made.”

    Wrong. Air has always been around.

    Radio waves did not exist until transmitters started transmitting them.

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  97. Graeme2 (102 comments) says:

    @Redbaiter I agree the current crop of Politicians are mostly responsible. However they are Politicians and if enough people lobby them for change it will have an impact. There is always more than one way of achieving a result.

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  98. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Radio waves did not exist until transmitters started transmitting them.

    Wrong. Stars emit radio waves.

    http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/Radio_screams_from_the_Sun_warn_of_radiation_storms

    Like I said, the radio spectrum is just as a much a natural resource as air or water is. The Crown has a history of injuring the rights of people in NZ re public resources. Driver licencing, for example is a hugely fraudulent enterprise.

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  99. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    You don’t appear to understand what it is. The spectrum is the frequency that transmissions are sent at from the transmitters. So many waves per second or whatever it is. Its like saying litres are a natural resource because a pump delivers water or fuel or milk or whatever at 100 litres per minute. Or Maori own kilometres because a car travels at 100 kilometres per hour. Just completely daft.

    Without a device to transmit, there are no frequencies per millisecond (or whatever) and that the frequency can be altered so some transmit at 3G or some at 4G or some at 12 mhz or whatever does not mean the frequency is a tangible thing. It isn’t. It is just a unit of measurement.

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  100. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    You don’t appear to understand what it is.

    Says the poster who was blatantly wrong about radio waves being purely the product of man-made transmitters.

    Tell you what. How about you read this NASA webpage on electromagnetic radiation and then tell me what I said about the radio spectrum that disagrees what what NASA says about it.

    http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/know_l1/emspectrum.html

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  101. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “Says the poster who was blatantly wrong about radio waves being purely the product of man-made transmitters.”

    I’m talking about the context of licensing of radio transmitters to transmit at a certain frequency which is what is being claimed as a Taonga. What the fuck radio transmissions from distant stars have got to do with it I wouldn’t know. Apart from an obsessive and irrational desire of yours to win some obscure point. The fact is the spectrum is the frequency at which radio waves are transmitted. It has no tangible form because it is a unit of measure. Are you completely retarded? God this country is so absolutely full of fuckwits.

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  102. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    What the fuck radio transmissions from distant stars have got to do with it I wouldn’t know

    Radio wave from stars are relevant because the prove that radio waves existed before man made radio transmitters. This falsifies your statement that:

    Radio waves did not exist until transmitters started transmitting them.

    In the context of regulation of the use of the radio spectrum, the point is that the radio spectrum is a natural resource, which was the point that I was disputing with Doc.

    The fact is the spectrum is the frequency at which radio waves are transmitted. It has no tangible form because it is a unit of measure. Are you completely retarded? God this country is so absolutely full of fuckwits.

    My irony meter just broke.

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  103. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    You wouldn’t know irony if it was chewing your arse off you uneducated time wasting serf.

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  104. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    You wouldn’t know irony if it was chewing your arse off you uneducated time wasting serf.

    http://www.dailywritingtips.com/what-is-irony-with-examples/

    2: a) the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning
    b) a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony
    c) an ironic expression or utterance

    I was thinking of 2(a) when I said that my irony meter broke, the irony being that you were suggesting that I was a fuckwit immediately after you had demonstrated your ignorance of what the radio spectrum is. What makes the irony exceptional is the fact that I had previously given you a link to a NASA webpage which explains it in fairly simple terms.

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  105. ben (2,377 comments) says:

    Reason is not why the claim is made. The expected return has more to do with it.

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  106. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Ben, that’s a bit ambiguous. Could you please elaborate?

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  107. Toa Greening (20 comments) says:

    While in the past selling off the spectrum property rights may have been appropriate there is now
    growing international evidence as well as local evidence that this model is clearly flawed by
    inefficient spectrum use and hoarding.
    The following recommendations provide the most benefit, efficient and responsible allocation of the
    spectrum.
    • There should be a thorough investigation into the usages of the existing 230MHz of
    spectrum allocated to the Telecommunications companies to determine whether it is being
    efficiently used.
    o The fact that TelstraClear has been allowed to hoard 104.5MHz of spectrum starting
    from 1998 is evidence of Governments poor record.
    • Those Telecommunications companies who are identified as using existing allocations
    inefficiently will not be allowed to purchase more spectrum and may be required to release
    that spectrum in future for re-allocation to the shared spectrum.
    • A shared spectrum model should be developed as per the European Union with the newly
    released 700MHz spectrum being licensed to the shared spectrum model.
    • Under the Governments Ultrafast Broadband Initiative Chorus has already developed the
    third party infrastructure to provide backhaul services which will be the basis of the shared
    spectrum model.
    • New Mobile operators will lease bandwidth off the third party infrastructure provider to
    resilient mobile services. The bottleneck of mobile services will occur at the HF EMF
    spectrum level therefore infrastructure bandwidth will be minimal by comparison. However
    as more spectrum becomes available then more can be allocated to the shared spectrum.
    • Chorus or Telecommunications companies may provide the road side shared Cell Phone
    Tower infrastructure under a shared licensed agreement.
    • The placement of the new shared Cell Phone Towers will include public consultation and
    avoid sensitive areas such as homes, schools and early childhood centres.
    • Voice services needs to be prioritised over Mobile Broadband services to ensure that
    emergency calls have high availability and voice users have quality of service above
    broadband services.
    • Regulation needs to be put into place to ensure that investment is directed into fibre to
    homes for the Ultrafast Broadband and not Mobile broadband being portrayed as Ultrafast
    broadband.
    • Government should investigate a legislative partnership with Maori on the management of
    the Spectrum to ensure that the spectrum is managed reasonably and in good faith for all
    New Zealanders.

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  108. Toa Greening (20 comments) says:

    The Taonga Argument

    If industry was really honest they would want to delay the rollout of 4G technology as this is another operational cost that does not necessarily add any new benefits to users or profit streams.

    What is really driving the auction process are the three Telecommunications fear of another competitor entering the market. Therefore the auction is more about market protection as opposed to the delivery of new technology/benefitss. This is fundamentally wrong and is a reason why the 700Mhz spectrum should not be sold.

    The 700Mhz spectrum should instead be developed for a shared spectrum model. The shared spectrum model was advocated by various Maori groups in 2011 during the early discussions on the 700Mhz auctions. In 2012 the European parliament resolved for its member states to develop shared spectrum models. This was again advocated in November 2012 during the radio spectrum five year outlook submissions. Unfortunately Government does not read the submissions it asks for, follow international trends or perform any type of high level forward planning.

    Government is instead obsessed with selling off limited resources which are a Taonga to all New Zealanders.

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  109. Toa Greening (20 comments) says:

    The Technical Argument

    At the moment there are very few 4G devices to operate over the 700Mhz spectrum. It will take time for manufacturers to produce these 4G devices.

    The current spectrum that has been allocated to 1900Mhz and 800Mhz has the greatest range of 4G devices.

    All three Telecommunictaions are already in various stages of 4G testing/deployment.

    While 4G offers faster speeds over 3G, most of the time users of smartphones will not notice the difference. Most web based applications detect smartphones and deliver content in a efficient manner hence very little difference between 3G and 4G.

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