General Debate 23 March 2013

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SPC

kea, it was too simplistic to claim that global warming would result in snowless winters, global warming has impacts on the weather patterns and Arctic weather systems being pushed south won’t end snow in Europe.

I see you believe in AGW being of a conspiracy to attack industrial capitalism …
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March 23, 2013 11:09pm
Kea

SPC, where is the evidence that man is driving climate change ? I am sure we affect it to some degree, but I am equally sure that degree is vastly overstated by the AGW movement.

Funny you should bring up the Ozone hole. That was the last trick the weatherman tried to pull. Have you noticed we do not hear much about that anymore ? Do you know why ? Look it up. This will get you started.

New Scientific Evidence Proves
Ozone Depletion Theory False

New scientific evidence continues to demonstrate that the ozone depletion models -and the resulting ban on CFCs- are based on a Big Lie

By Rogelio Maduro

Co-author of the book “The Holes in the Ozone Scare”, 1993

New satellite ozone data and other atmospheric studies based on actual measurements confirm that the ozone layer is not a homogeneous, flat and that atmospheric dynamics, not chemistry, is the driving factor that determines the thickness of the ozone layer. The scientific research reported here strips any shred of credibility from the claims of the ozone depletion theorists leaving the Montreal Protocol backed only by the Malthusian ideotogy of its founders.

http://www.mitosyfraudes.org/Ingles/Crista.html
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March 23, 2013 11:11pm
Kea

I see you believe in AGW being of a conspiracy to attack industrial capitalism …

Global warming is real, and caused by capitalism
Socialism needed to save the environment

http://pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/global-warming-is-real.html

SPC, You will find many many articles saying the same thing. I recall asking you what the solution was to AGW. Your only answer was Global Socialism. At least you had the guts to answer, honestly, unlike Griff.
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March 23, 2013 11:15pm
SPC

Kea, AGW exacerbates warming that was occurring in any case – since the mini ice age. You are right that we do not know how much it causes of itself – we need other factors to flat-line, such as solar activity to be constant.
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March 23, 2013 11:16pm
SPC

Kea, a carbon tax on goods in international trade is not socialism (no more than a petrol tax is), nor is it a solution. It just provides an incentive to producers to use clean energy or be more efficient in energy use.

Socialists citing AGW is not evidence of socialists behind AGW.
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March 23, 2013 11:17pm
Kea

The sad thing for me is that I want us to clean up our act and protect the environment. I have always been close to nature and love the natural world.

Most who support AGW nonsense do it due to a general concern for the environment, or social issues. The trouble is, when AGW is even more widely known to be false people will be less inclined to listen to real environmental concerns.
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March 23, 2013 11:19pm
SPC

Kea, I would not presume AGW to be false, it could however be overstating the warming that is being caused.

I suspect that the issue could be detracting from other environment issues.
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March 23, 2013 11:21pm
Kea

SPC, you have previously told us who will be taxed and who will get the hand outs. Basically white people will be heavily taxed and the money will go to not-so-white folk. What you actually said was rich to developing countries… but I am pretty sure you were not thinking Moldova or Kosovo, were you ?

Got some bad news for you. When you lift the standard of living, people will want all the toys that go with it. You will note a few more cars on the road in China now days, for example. Not that the Chinese give a fuck about AGW, aside from a bit of rhetoric and an excuse to tax its people.
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March 23, 2013 11:25pm
SPC

But more of a problem is post GFC concern for the economic future leading to the feeling that environment protection is difficult to afford.
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March 23, 2013 11:25pm
Shunda barunda

Does anyone know how to diagnose an impending mental breakdown? 😀
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March 23, 2013 11:27pm
SPC

Kea, ultimately the carbon tax is paid by the consumer of the good. As for the money collected being used – new technology development (spent in the West mainly), and investment in clean energy for third world nations. The latter investment is coming out of foreign aid budgets/World Bank at the moment (but funding is under pressure because governments have post GFC budget problems).
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March 23, 2013 11:30pm
Kea

SPC, allow me to sound like a commie for a moment (as Red claims I am anyway !)

Our financial system is based on infinite growth, with finite resources. It has to fail. And that is the good news !

One of the troubles with this system is people have to buy more “stuff” to keep the economy growing. This is not good news for the environment long term. Simply offering up the failed system of socialism is not the answer. Just look at China and the USSR, total environmental disasters.

I am not sure what the answer is. Our current system is pretty awful and looks ready to collapse. It would be much better if people were not so materialistic. I would like to see a social change, not a political one. Capitalism is ok and responds to markets [us] so if we change…
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March 23, 2013 11:34pm
Shunda barunda

My cry for help was downticked 🙁
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March 23, 2013 11:38pm
Kea

investment in clean energy for third world nations.

It is widely claimed, by warmists, that the RICH countries contribute the most to AGW.

Therefore, global co2 would best reduced by investing in clean energy for the RICH countries [and maybe taxing the poor ones?]

Once again I see “Socialism” creeping into a discussion about climate.
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March 23, 2013 11:40pm
Kea

Does anyone know how to diagnose an impending mental breakdown?

1. You think Helen Clark is a spunk.

2. You think Helen Clark is a good person.

3. You find Penny Brights posts illuminating.

Answer in the affirmative to any of the above and don’t worry. It’s too late already 🙂
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March 23, 2013 11:44pm
SPC

Kea, the changed I outlined is one attempt (albeit politically led) at change – investment in new tech and building renewable energy in the third world is actually good for western business and in a way that is good for the environment – it’s not really handing over money to the rest of the world. It’s just one of the directions the West has to take to be pro economy and environment at the same time.

Yes, capitalism does respond to markets and thus a carbon tax should enable cost competitive renewable energy production.

PS your three points are all made on Green sites, the financial system is premised on unsustainable growth, the rampant materialism and how the people have to change their ways or we are (eventually) doomed. I would rather focus on political options rather say the people are the problem and they must change – especially if the financial system and business practice were to remain the same.
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March 23, 2013 11:53pm
Shunda barunda

Does anyone know how to diagnose an impending mental breakdown?

1. You think Helen Clark is a spunk.

2. You think Helen Clark is a good person.

3. You find Penny Brights posts illuminating.

Answer in the affirmative to any of the above and don’t worry. It’s too late already

Phew!! I’m ok for at least another day then! 🙂
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March 23, 2013 11:53pm
SPC

Kea, how is providing help to the poor nations socialism?

The purpose is so that their future growth does not result in emissions.

Funding this investment by a carbon tax, rather than via existing foreign aid out of general tax revenues, simply secures a funding stream in a post GFC world.
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March 23, 2013 11:59pm
Elaycee

Kea (11.44pm):

1.You think Helen Clark is a spunk.
2. You think Helen Clark is a good person.
3. You find Penny Brights posts illuminating.

Nooooooooooooooooooooo…..

Stop it! 😯
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March 24, 2013 2:18am
Kea

Kea, how is providing help to the poor nations socialism?

SPC, by having central government take – by force – wealth from those who earned it and displacing it to those who did not earn it.

If the money is given voluntarily, then fine.

You seem to think that we owe a duty of care to poor countries. But as I said earlier you are not thinking of Moldova or Kosovo are you ? What your really saying is that we owe a duty of care to non-Europeans because they are less capable.
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March 24, 2013 6:50am
Kea

PS your three points are all made on Green sites, the financial system is premised on unsustainable growth, the rampant materialism and how the people have to change their ways or we are (eventually) doomed. I would rather focus on political options rather say the people are the problem and they must change – especially if the financial system and business practice were to remain the same.

SPC, this is what I like about you. Most of the commies on KB try and deny or hide their adherence to socialism. You take every opportunity to wave it in my face ! At least your honest about it, you little commie prick 😉

Here is the problem with what you said : My suggesting is that WE (the people) lead the change. In a country where leaders are ELECTED (look it up comrade) they will need to reflect the views of the people, to some extent.

Your suggestion is “political options”. Another words, central government forcing people against their will. We know you think it will be forced, because if it was not, then my idea would work perfectly. So the question is, WHO decides, if not the people ?
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March 24, 2013 7:02am
SPC

Kea, you don’t like taxation or socialism, but that does not make taxation socialism.

(relevant note – there is nothing little about big government).

Proposing that government be the agent of change is also not socialism, its democracy. And by necessity political action requires consent/public support (unless one is selling public assets).

And funding third world aid via a carbon tax rather than from general tax revenues is better for the western economy (with weak domestic government budgets) – the new tech development and renewable energy build would come from western business sources. Aid in the form of energy supply to enable emission free growth is of a higher standard than some aid at present.
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March 24, 2013 11:03am

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