Liking the new Pope

March 31st, 2013 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

I blogged last week that so far I thought the new Pope was looking very promising, and he continues to impress. I’m not Catholic but I want the Catholic Church to have a leader who will do well.

The Herald reports:

has won over many hearts and minds with his simple style and focus on serving the world’s poorest, but he has devastated traditionalist who adored his predecessor, Benedict XVI, for restoring much of the traditional pomp to the papacy.

Francis’ decision to disregard church law and wash the feet of two girls, a Serbian Muslim and an Italian Catholic during a Holy Thursday ritual has become something of the final straw, evidence that Francis has little or no interest in one of the key priorities of Benedict’s papacy: reviving the pre-Vatican II traditions of the Catholic Church.

One of the most-read traditionalist blogs, “Rorate Caeli,” reacted to the foot-washing ceremony by declaring the death of Benedict’s eight-year project to correct what he considered the botched interpretations of the Second Vatican Council’s modernising reforms.

So what is the fuss over including two girls?

There were certainly none of those trappings on display Thursday at the Casal del Marmo juvenile detention facility in Rome, where the 76-year-old Francis got down on his knees and to wash the feet of 12 inmates, two of them women. The rite re-enacts Jesus’ washing of the feet of his 12 apostles during the Last Supper before his crucifixion, a sign of his love and service to them.

The church’s liturgical law holds that only men can participate in the rite, given that Jesus’ apostles were all male. Priests and bishops have routinely petitioned for exemptions to include women, but the law is clear.

Francis, however, is the church’s chief lawmaker, so in theory he can do whatever he wants.

“The pope does not need anybody’s permission to make exceptions to how ecclesiastical law relates to him,” noted conservative columnist Jimmy Akin in the National Catholic Register. But Akin echoed concerns raised by canon lawyer Edward Peters, an adviser to the Vatican’s high court, that Francis was setting a “questionable example” by simply ignoring the church’s own rules.

Papal infallibility can come in useful sometimes :-)

“People naturally imitate their leader. That’s the whole point behind Jesus washing the disciples’ feet. He was explicitly and intentionally setting an example for them,” he said. “Pope Francis knows that he is setting an example.”

Yep, an example that probably thrilled many female Catholics around the world.

The inclusion of women in the rite is problematic for some because it could be seen as an opening of sorts to women’s ordination. The Catholic Church restricts the priesthood to men, arguing that Jesus and his 12 apostles were male.

Francis is clearly opposed to women’s ordination. But by washing the feet of women, he jolted traditionalists who for years have been unbending in insisting that the ritual is for men only and proudly holding up as evidence documentation from the Vatican’s liturgy office saying so.

I think people are reading too much into it, if they think this will lead to female priests.

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81 Responses to “Liking the new Pope”

  1. Michael (910 comments) says:

    Jesus met the lepers, stayed with the tax collectors, and did not condemn Mary Magdalene or the adulteress. Religious leaders who are mindful of this are likely to be more connected with their flock who earnestly believe this.

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  2. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    The inclusion of women in the rite is problematic for some because it could be seen as an opening of sorts to women’s ordination.

    Next thing you know they will ordain homosexuals and peodophiles !

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  3. Griff (7,808 comments) says:

    Catholic church dragging itself and its believers into the twenty first century.

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  4. Harriet (4,975 comments) says:

    The Left in the Catholic Church are just like the left everywhere else, give them an inch and they will use that inch to demand a mile more!

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  5. Lucia Maria (2,467 comments) says:

    I think people are reading too much into it, if they think this will lead to female priests.

    David, for once I agree with you on one of your Catholic posts. This is not a big deal even though heaps of Catholics are making it so.

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  6. Yoza (1,879 comments) says:

    “Pope Francis has won over many hearts and minds with his simple style and focus on serving the world’s poorest, …”

    Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI and this latest character are known to be collaborators with the CIA’s attempt to snuff out the ‘Preferential option for the poor’ advocated by grass-roots priests of the Jesuit order in South and Central America,“The U.S. would continue to engage in active, military operations to wipe out Liberation Theology, leaving a slew of murdered priests, brothers and sisters, and even the Archbishop of San Salvador, Oscar Romero, in its wake. All told, well over 100 religious were murdered in Latin America between 1964 and 1985, and the bloodshed did not stop there.”

    The slaughter continues as Daniel Kovalik writes, “On September 15, 2011, I wrote to Rev. Msgr. Kuriakose Bharanikulangara, the First Counsellor of the Permanent Observer Mission of the Holy See to the United Nations. In that letter, which was prompted by the killing of the 79th priest in Colombia since 1984, I expressed my concern for the continued killing of Catholic priests and other religious in Colombia. I asserted my belief “that this assault on the Church in Colombia is both state policy of Colombia as well as the United States which is propping up that military with billions of dollars of assistance, and which views organized movements for social justice in Latin America as a threat to its economic domination of the region.”

    Pope Francis has a long history of collaborating with the Argentine fascists.

    Paulo Freire points out,“…Bergoglio [Pope Francis] cautioned the Jesuits to reject the false theology of liberation, and to avoid contact with those who used the scriptures to politicize and empower the poor. This was dangerous. It could be viewed by powerful sectors of Argentine society as ‘subversive’.”

    Bergoglio not only offered moral support to the Agentine fascist dictatorship, but is reputed to have actively participated in their crimes:

    “The first concerns Bergoglio’s privileged knowledge and his possible complicity in sanctioning the removal (i.e, confiscation) of babies from disappeared and detained political prisoners and their placement in ‘good’ Christian, military households…”

    “The second allegation concerns the Tribunal’s investigation of a military raid on a rural church during which three persons, two French missionary nuns and a lay catechist , and personal friend of Bergoglio were disappeared.”

    “The third accusation, and the one that has received the greatest attention, concerns the role Bergoglio played in the disappearance, detention, interrogation and torture of two of his own Jesuit priests in training: Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics.”

    This latest Pope is just another dirty man with a history of colluding with mass-murderers, so he should feel right at home in the Vatican.

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  7. Lucia Maria (2,467 comments) says:

    And the Left is out in force to discredit him.

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  8. wat dabney (3,775 comments) says:

    And the Left is out in force to discredit him…by pointing to his record.

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  9. Don the Kiwi (1,763 comments) says:

    “…..he has devastated traditionalist Catholics who adored his predecessor, Benedict XVI, for restoring much of the traditional pomp to the papacy.”

    Francis’ decision to disregard church law and wash the feet of two girls, a Serbian Muslim and an Italian Catholic during a Holy Thursday ritual has become something of the final straw, evidence that Francis has little or no interest in one of the key priorities of Benedict’s papacy: reviving the pre-Vatican II traditions of the Catholic Church.

    What a load of crap – devastated? Typical journalistic ignorance and overstated sensationalism.

    Even though the rite does call for “viri” Latin for men, being the ideal, that does not preclude women being involved – in our parish and in parishes around the world women are included – but very rarely, if at all, children. And then, the final straw?…..Hahahahahahahah.

    There may be an issue though, from the muslims – because men are not allowed to touch the bare skin of a woman who is not their wife or daughter.

    And again David, your understanding of papal infallibility is shown to be extremely flawed.

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  10. big bruv (13,929 comments) says:

    Not just the left Lucia.

    Anybody who wants to see an end to the lies of the Catholic church.

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  11. Lucia Maria (2,467 comments) says:

    The problem is, Wat, it’s very easy to make accusations and it’s much harder to then counter the accusations with the actual truth because that takes time in understanding and then even more time in writing a counter.

    Given that Yoza has added this paragraph

    “The third accusation, and the one that has received the greatest attention, concerns the role Bergoglio played in the disappearance, detention, interrogation and torture of two of his own Jesuit priests in training: Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics.”

    which I know is not true because one of the priests named has spoken out and said it never happened, for starters, I’m willing to bet the rest of his post is crap as well. But countering each point takes time and there is no onus on Yoza to prove anything he is saying.

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  12. Longknives (4,764 comments) says:

    “Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI and this latest character are known to be collaborators with the CIA…”

    I stopped reading about there. Someone has been smoking a few too many ‘funny cigarettes’..

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  13. Don the Kiwi (1,763 comments) says:

    Yoza – another one of the anti catholic band who re-write history to suit their own agenda. They don’t even bother to investigate the real story.

    Historical revisionism is a tool the left use to distort society. Yoza joins the club.

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  14. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    Catholic women have never had to look to Popes or priests for affirmation on their importance in the life of the Church.

    This is just more modernist,feminist,shallow spin.

    Today’s Easter Gospel reading from Luke 24 on the Resurection ended with the line “Now it was Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James and other women with them who told this to the apostles……”

    Dream on progressives, from the moment of Christs’ Resurection women have had one of the most important roles ,that of revelation and witness.

    All Catholics know and accept that as it is part of the Gospel message.

    Alleluia.

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  15. Yoza (1,879 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria:“…which I know is not true because one of the priests named has spoken out and said it never happened,…”

    I’m guessing you are speaking of Father Franz Jalics who wrote the following excerpt: “After we were set free, I left Argentina. It was only years later that we had the opportunity to discuss the events with Father Bergoglio who in the meantime had been appointed Archbishop of Buenos Aires. Following that, we celebrated Mass publicly together and hugged solemnly. I am reconciled with the events and on my part, consider the matter to be closed. I wish Pope Francis God’s rich blessings for his office – Father Franz Jalics SJ 15 March 2013.”

    “…it never happened…”

    It did happen, according to the priest you site – the issue being the level of Bergoglio’s complicity in the kidnapping and torture of the two priests. Jalics did not say it didn’t happen, he said he has reconciled with events of the past, forgiving the man he suspects of colluding with his torturers is a million miles away from denying the event happened.

    The other priest, Orlando Yorio, believes Bergoglio was present during their interogation: “Yorio told Argentine journalist Hortaio Verbitsdsky that “he had the impression that their own provincial, Bergoglio, was present during the interrogations [at ESMA] as one of the interrogators had external knowledge of theological questions.” By this Yorio meant that the interrogation went into details of theological doctrine far beyond the competency of a secular Navy officer.”

    Longknives : “I stopped reading about there. Someone has been smoking a few too many ‘funny cigarettes’

    Happy, blissful ignorance. Go back to sleep LK.

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  16. Yoza (1,879 comments) says:

    Don the Kiwi: “Yoza – another one of the anti catholic band who re-write history to suit their own agenda. They don’t even bother to investigate the real story.” The majority of those religious advocates of the poor and powerless were Catholics. How is seeking justice for their torturers and murders ‘anti-Catholic?

    “Historical revisionism is a tool the left use to distort society.” No, we wouldn’t want historical evidence to get in the way of a good story now, would we?

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  17. Andrei (2,664 comments) says:

    LOL – Will we be getting a blog post analyzing the Pope’s Easter Homily as reported by the New Zealand Herald?

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  18. gump (1,650 comments) says:

    I am impressed with what I have seen so far.

    I hope the new Pope can continue in the manner in which he has started.

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  19. Paulus (2,632 comments) says:

    Early days but from media I believe he has made a good start.
    But the “Vatinicats” will not like it one little bit – they will obstruct him as hard as possible.
    – he appears both humble and honest, and has many a hidden scandal to review.
    I wish him joy in his endevours

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  20. iMP (2,387 comments) says:

    http://www.news.com.au/world-news/australian-star-in-hiding-following-arrest-on-suspicion-of-sex-offences-as-part-of-operation-yewtree/story-fndir2ev-1226609620658

    Australian and entertainer. Can Cameron peg this onto His Holiness Frank I? After all pedo according to Whale is a Catholic gene.

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  21. Fletch (6,408 comments) says:

    As far as the foot washing goes, I read yesterday (I just stumbled upon it, before I had even read about the Pope) that it’s basically OK.

    The Holy See has not offered any definitive interpretation of the matter at hand. Some years ago, Cardinal Sean O’Malley of Boston asked the Vatican Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments about this matter; the response was that women’s feet could be washed on Holy Thursday.

    Father Michael Heintz, a distinguished patristic scholar, wrote briefly on this matter some years ago, and he concluded, following a brief historical review, as follows: “What is worth noting is that historically the [foot washing] is to be understood not primarily in terms of the ordained priesthood but rather of the baptismal priesthood. Thus, it is not inappropriate that both men and women are invited to participate.” 

    http://www.osv.com/tabid/7621/itemid/9195/Washing-womens-feet.aspx

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  22. Lucia Maria (2,467 comments) says:

    Yoza,

    Lucia Maria:“…which I know is not true because one of the priests named has spoken out and said it never happened,…”

    I’m guessing you are speaking of Father Franz Jalics who wrote the following excerpt: “After we were set free, I left Argentina. It was only years later that we had the opportunity to discuss the events with Father Bergoglio who in the meantime had been appointed Archbishop of Buenos Aires. Following that, we celebrated Mass publicly together and hugged solemnly. I am reconciled with the events and on my part, consider the matter to be closed. I wish Pope Francis God’s rich blessings for his office – Father Franz Jalics SJ 15 March 2013.”

    “…it never happened…”

    It did happen, according to the priest you site – the issue being the level of Bergoglio’s complicity in the kidnapping and torture of the two priests. Jalics did not say it didn’t happen, he said he has reconciled with events of the past, forgiving the man he suspects of colluding with his torturers is a million miles away from denying the event happened.

    When I said it didn’t happen, I meant that the current pope had nothing to do with it. He did not denounce those priests, which is what the accusation was, though there was more that has also been found to be false as well.

    Here are some further clarifying statements by Fr Jalics, given that he realised the media had misrepresented what he said initially:

    CNA STAFF, Mar 21, 2013 / 04:08 pm (CNA).- Clarifying previous comments, a priest who was kidnapped during Argentina’s dictatorship in the 1970s is emphasizing that Pope Francis was not responsible for his detainment.

    In a statement published on the official website of the Jesuit order in Germany, Father Francisco Jalics said that while he once believed his 1976 kidnapping was due to a denunciation by then-Father Bergoglio, he realized some 20 years ago that this belief was incorrect.

    Following the election of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio to the papacy on March 13, several media reports attempted to connect the new Pontiff to the Argentine dictatorship of Rafael Videla. At the time of the dictatorship, Fr. Bergoglio had been provincial of the Jesuits in Argentina.

    Father Jalics – who is now retired in Germany – issued a statement sending his best wishes to the new Pope and offering assurances that the two are on good terms.

    The 86-year-old priest said that his earlier statements were misinterpreted by the media. He adamantly denied that then-Father Bergoglio played any role in causing his five year-long captivity alongside another priest, Father Orlando Yorio, who died in 2000.

    “Since my statement on March 15 of this year, I have received many questions, so I would like to add the following. I almost feel obliged to do so, because some commentaries contradict what I wanted to say,” Fr. Jalics said.

    “These are the facts: Neither I nor Orlando Yorio or were denounced by Father Bergoglio.”

    “As I made clear in my previous statement, we were arrested because of a catechist who worked with us first and later joined the guerilla,” he explained.

    “For nine months we never saw her again, but two or three days after she was detained, we were detained as well,” he continued. “The official who interrogated me asked for my papers. When he saw that I was born in Budapest, he thought I was a Russian spy.”

    “In the Argentinean Jesuit congregation and in Catholic circles, false information spread in the years prior that claimed we had moved to the poor barrios because we belonged to the guerilla. But that was not the case. I suppose these rumors were motivated by the fact that we were not immediately released,” Fr. Jalics said.

    “I was once inclined to think that we were the victims of a betrayal. But at the end of the 1990s, I realized after many conversations that this assumption was baseless,” the priest explained.

    “For this reason, it is wrong to assert that our capture happened because of Father Bergoglio,” he declared.

    Source: Priest kidnapped in Argentina clears Pope of accusations

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  23. Lucia Maria (2,467 comments) says:

    Don (and others),

    The problem with the foot washing of women is that canon law explicitly states that only men can get their feet washed. The pope, of course, is not bound in the same way, but what needs to happen now is that the laws of the Church need to be changed rather than giving implicit authorisation for what has already been happening in many parishes for quite some time now, including mine.

    A good post on this topic: Have we entered the age of a new Gnosticism?

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  24. eszett (2,417 comments) says:

    Fletch (4,079) Says:
    March 31st, 2013 at 1:21 pm
    As far as the foot washing goes, I read yesterday (I just stumbled upon it, before I had even read about the Pope) that it’s basically OK

    Puh!. I can’t tell you how relieved I am to hear that.

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  25. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    ….”Father Michael Heintz, a distinguished patristic scholar, wrote briefly on this matter some years ago, and he concluded, following a brief historical review, as follows: “What is worth noting is that historically the [foot washing] is to be understood not primarily in terms of the ordained priesthood but rather of the baptismal priesthood. Thus, it is not inappropriate that both men and women are invited to participate.” …..

    Anyone who wonders why secularists with one or two feet grounded in the real world give the Papists a hard time should reread this every morning. We can only marvel at a sect which has detached itself so far from the actual meaning of Christ’s teachings that it would even entertain having a formal position on the ritualised trivia that is the washing of feet.

    The Catholic leaders are absolutely & irredeemably divorced from reality.

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  26. Andrei (2,664 comments) says:

    Anyone who wonders why secularists with one or two feet grounded in the real world…….

    Secualarists – the people who bought us homosexual marriage and global warming among other totally ludicrous thing have two feet grounded in the real world?

    ROFLMAO

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  27. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    Andrei

    Atheists & some secularists are normal day to day people who have problems with believing in:

    # A god who cannot be seen, touched or felt.
    # People allegedly being turned into pillars of salt.
    # Females being crafted from a spare rib.
    # The world being created in seven days.
    # Resurrections.
    # Leprechauns or Pixies.

    We may or may not be for, against or ambivalent about:

    # Gay marriage
    # AGW

    This is mainly because we think for ourselves rather than turn to crazy old men wearing dresses for instruction.

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  28. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    nasska

    you’re not a normal day to day person ,you are angry and hate filled and the nasty, dismissive words in your post just now proves it.

    Generally I don’t have a problem with other peoples ‘s beliefs,atheist or otherwise,it’s the snarky wankers like you who hate Christianity but hide behind atheism to attack it at every turn.

    Have a nice day,wanker.

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  29. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    Whatever.

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  30. Don the Kiwi (1,763 comments) says:

    Actually nasska,

    I have a problem believing in 4 or your six propositions also :-)

    Guess which ones I believe in?

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  31. BeaB (2,125 comments) says:

    Creepy. Imagine an old guy kissing your feet. Imagine if the Scientologists did it! Yuk.

    Why do we venerate these queer old coots?

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  32. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    I’d say that #1 & #5 would float your boat Don. I accept that 6# was included in a facetious vein but to believe the rest requires a faith which eludes me.

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  33. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    beab

    Who’s aked you to venerate anyone? If you’re not catholic and it’s not hurting you why comment on something that has nothing to do with you?

    Maybe you genuinely don’t know but it’s a re enactment from the last days of Christ in jerusalem. Part of Christian culture belief tradition history etc

    Christians are allowed that aren’t they?

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  34. BeaB (2,125 comments) says:

    Whatever floats your boat kowtow. Appropriate nickname.

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  35. Don the Kiwi (1,763 comments) says:

    “…….but to believe the rest requires a faith which eludes me.

    That’s understandable.

    That’s because, there are 4 “senses” of scripture – literal, allegorical, moral and anagogical.

    Most people read the bible using the Literal sense, but when they come across something that seems a bit strange, they discount it, and that’s what you are doing.
    Much of scripture – particularly the Old Testament, should be read in the Allegorical sense. Much of the time before Abraham uses this sense, but after Abraham, is generally historically accurate in the anecdotal writings. As you are aware, an allegory is a story which may be mythical, but reveals an underlying truth. So was Lot turned into a pillar of salt? The blast that destroyed Sodom and Gommorah was volcanic – maybe she was overtaken by a blast of hot poisonous gasses and killed instantly and petrified – we don’t really know, but that’s how the narrator of the time perceived it to be.
    Likewise the world being created in seven days – who knows, back then, how long a day lasted – it doesn’t really matter, but that the world was created by a creator in whatever time – the narrator simply uses the term day. I know you have a problem with a creator as well – but all I’m trying to do is indicate that scripture is not to be read literally, necessarily.

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  36. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    Silly old Pope. He should have run them through a shallow dip of formalin solution to ensure they were wholysome! :)

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  37. SPC (5,643 comments) says:

    Don the Kiwi, heat makes one sweat and one sweats out salt. Heat dries one out, old people have dry skin – and by this time they have lost their fertility and only their daughters are fertile.

    This story is allegory, about the fertility of women, but only for a time. Women remain married beyond their time of fertility. The related story is sexuality that is not procreative and how old Sarah really was (an age when most women were already dead?) when Isaac was born.

    This goes onto to the next story about the sacrifice of a lamb, and receiving the law for the covenant nation on a volcanic mountain top.

    Arabs once referred to the Jewish God as a volcano God.

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  38. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    beab

    both your “contributions” have been ad homs,anything better?

    If not why not just shut your trap?

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  39. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    so SPC

    enlighten us as to which school of theology or bible studies or middle eastern traditions you attended to make you the “expert” that can explain such mysteries to us thickos .

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  40. BeaB (2,125 comments) says:

    Thicko? Don’t be so tough on yourself kowtow.

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  41. SPC (5,643 comments) says:

    Yoza,

    Yes the current Pope abandoned liberation theology and joined the conservative camp on the issue – that sees the leftist advocacy for the poor as of the politics of secular society. But unlike some other conservatives he does not abandon advocacy for the poor because of it, and yet others still he appears to do more than offer lip service to it.

    Not being an ally of liberation theology does not make him responsible for the oppression of the poor, nor make him someone denying social justice. He can be distinguished from some others in that.

    When you post that …

    Paulo Freire points out,“…Bergoglio [Pope Francis] cautioned the Jesuits to reject the false theology of liberation, and to avoid contact with those who used the scriptures to politicize and empower the poor. This was dangerous. It could be viewed by powerful sectors of Argentine society as ‘subversive’.”

    … this is fair comment. And it explains his behaviour during the fascist rule period. He warned the 2 Jesuits of the risk they were taking in visiting slums in BA, being right about that does not make him complicit in their arrest. He was more complicit in seeking their later exile abroad for their own good.

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  42. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    Hell BeaB. Two downtrous for kowtow?

    Show your forgiveness for those who are confused! :)

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  43. SPC (5,643 comments) says:

    kowtow, my post was in discussion with another adult who raised the issue of allegorical meaning to the story and explained one take on it. I offered another. Go to bed.

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  44. Griff (7,808 comments) says:

    Kow tow seems to be having a bad day.

    39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

    Long live christian hypocrisy :lol:

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  45. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    Hell Griff it would be a brave non-homo that turned both his cheeks to the horned one! :)

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  46. Harriet (4,975 comments) says:

    “….If you’re not catholic and it’s not hurting you why comment on something that has nothing to do with you?…”

    Sometimes I fall about laughing at what the likes of Nasska and other Atheists say.

    One minute they’re telling us all that NZ is becoming more secular because everyone is leaving the Catholic Church because of this, that and everything else.

    Then the very next minute they’re telling us all how the Catholic Church should be run – presumably so that people don’t leave it!

    In just 40yrs the entire West has gone from the pill, to abortion, legal sodomy, to gay marriage, to gay adoption, and will soon move on to euthanasia. These are the major social changes. And all of these are about killing and non-procreation of humans.

    The church however is the ONLY institution to speak out against ALL of that, and it is the largest NGO on earth.
    What does Nasska and co in the West expect the largest NGO on earth to do instead ? distribute condoms to the poorest people on earth, and in doing so excuse their behaviour? Africans instead need a family unit, a purpose to exist, not a sexclub and a welfare system.
    In the future, if the Church’s vast knowledge of the human condition and the sanctity of life is cut-off from the next generations, the act of procreation will be left to the Atheist position; just the random set of variables: Rupert Murdoch’s children and the teacher’s union -and everything else in between- from the price of fish to the cost of bread.

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  47. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    I find it amusing how theists feel set upon and attacked by those who value truth over indoctrination.

    What you theists need to understand is that atheists believe in what is true. You may consider them wrong, but it is silly to assign other motives to them without evidence.

    It is about the truth, not about attacking bible thumpers.

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  48. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    nasska is the AntiChrist Harriet…..whod have thunk! :) :)

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  49. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    Does your head go round and round nasska?

    (even when you havent been on the piss) :)

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  50. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    .nasska caused global warming.

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  51. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    Thank you for the acknowledgement JB….I find that nowadays my duties are largely ceremonial. :)

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  52. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    As long as nasska doesn’t crucify sheep I can tolerate him! :)

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  53. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    kea

    Truth is fine , but what you get from a hardcore here is nothing but naked hatred. They dress it up as rationalism or whatever but at heart it is intolerance and hatred.

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  54. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    What does Nasska and co in the West expect the largest NGO on earth to do instead ? distribute condoms to the poorest people on earth, and in doing so excuse their behaviour? Africans instead need a family unit, a purpose to exist, not a sexclub and a welfare system.

    Yes they do need condoms , AIDS is killing millions, perhaps if they abstained from sex until they were married!!!!! I would guess also that tribal Africa would have some of the tightest family units going around. Fuck, all these poor bastards can do is exist, between despots raping their countries, the UN keeping them dependent on aid and the organised churches are doing fuck all except trying to recruit numbers to a particular sect. So speaking out seems to be doing fuck all from where I’m sitting.

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  55. Harriet (4,975 comments) says:

    “….What you theists need to understand is that atheists believe in what is true….”

    Atheism replaces religious morality with nothing. Atheism isn’t a ‘replacement’.

    That’s true Kea :cool:

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  56. Harriet (4,975 comments) says:

    “….the organised churches are doing fuck all except trying to recruit numbers to a particular sect….”

    The UN itself acknowledges that the Catholic Church is making major inroads into the lives of Africans.[Where they operate.]

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  57. SPC (5,643 comments) says:

    Harriet, New Zealand is becoming more secular because some/many Catholics/Christians prefer this.

    Mainstream use of contraception by Catholic laity is one reason why, for it gives them reason for common cause with others seeking to make their own choices. Oral sex which was also banned under sodomy laws in many countries is also now commonplace within Christian church married couples.

    The central issue is whether the church position should be imposed through law, one could argue that Jesus said no – while the church can have a moral position and declare it, this is not the same as imposing it on others through law/stoning to death etc.

    Thus it could be argued secularisation is a truly Christian work.

    This does not require church acceptance of what society chooses to allow.

    Abortion – legal (within society agreed limits), rare and affordable.
    Sodomy – informed (health risks known as part of sex education) adult consent.
    Gay adoption – legal and rare (1in 50 of the unrelated children adopted each year).
    Gay marriage – legal and only a minority of same sex individuals will commit to this or civil union as one driver of the commitment, children, is absent.
    Euthenasia – as contentious, as to arrangements, as agreed legal limits to abortion.

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  58. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    yeah those fucken churches have no schools or hospitals in Africa.

    I’d guess the churches run more education and health programs throughout the Dark Continent than all the sub Saharan govts put together do.

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  59. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    Kowtow, you need to keep real quiet about Africa, or I will start posting on the horrific things done by god believers in that country. Those who are interested can stuff their night up by googling what is done their in the name of god and the terrible religious violence that occurs daily in that troubled continent.

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  60. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    kea, oooooooooh, I need to keep quiet?

    I’m so scared .

    Go for it.

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  61. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    “The UN itself acknowledges that the Catholic Church is making major inroads into the lives of Africans.”

    Have they moved paedophilia to an area where it is less likely to be reported? :)

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  62. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    Thus it could be argued secularisation is a truly Christian work.

    Has it occurred to any of you “deep” thinkers that possibly secularism is Satan’s work, playing out precisely as foretold by Christian scripture?

    No?

    I didn’t think so.

    Continue your braying. I mean, it sheds as much light on the subject as real braying from real donkeys does so hey, why not?

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  63. thedavincimode (6,800 comments) says:

    Have a nice day,wanker.

    A phoney Christian spreads Christ’s love at Easter. Were these the last words of Christ? And to whom were they addressed?

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  64. Harriet (4,975 comments) says:

    “…Abortion – legal (within society agreed limits), rare and affordable…”

    Abortion is hardly rare – it’s the most dangerous place on earth.
    More kids are killed in the womb than all the adults and children together outside the womb – each and every year. About 80% is due to lazyness as contraception failure and pregnancy risk account for only 20% max.

    “…Sodomy – informed (health risks known as part of sex education) adult consent…”

    Rubbish!

    There is no way that sex education would include the truth that the suicide rate for gays in San Fransico is the VERY SAME as that of comparable cities such as Auckland, Wellington, Sydney, London, Toronto, Paris, ect. And that they are far far higher than for hetrosexuals,Drug and alcohol rates are the same also.

    “…Gay adoption – legal and rare (1in 50 of the unrelated children adopted each year)…”

    All kids who live with gays will miss either a natural mum or a dad their entire childhood. By design!

    “…Euthenasia – as contentious, as to arrangements, as agreed legal limits to abortion….”

    The ‘big wall of silence’ will be built around euthenasia by public servants, just like they have with abortion.
    They will then decide who will live and who will die by broadening the ‘vague limits’ that government legislate. Dementia will be ‘vocalised’ as ‘compassion’ in the debate, but when legislated will be written up under the likes of ‘mental illnesses/disease’. The public servants will then expand on this, like they did with abortion and the reasons accepted to terminate late term, ‘Timing’ of death when legislated for mental illnesses/dieases will be broad.

    “…Gay marriage – legal and only a minority of same sex individuals will commit to this or civil union as one driver of the commitment, children, is absent….”

    Law is based upon experiance, case law, and nearly all law surrounding Marriage is not relevant to gays. Marriage law takes away more rights than it gives. Gays had more rights before Civil unions, if one now buys a car when married, his partner then legally ownes half. But why? – has he breed? No he hasn’t, and if the law changes to reflect that in a gay male divorce case – then married men can also use it against married women who don’t breed. Or women against men. See now how gay Marriage has lessened Marriage in value?

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  65. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    Decisions, decisions. Before I buy my new Panamera should I divorce the wife and marry the car salesmen or should I just have it off on a casual basis with the Porsche dealers mechanic Harriet? :)

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  66. thedavincimode (6,800 comments) says:

    Johnboy

    I’ve never asked anything of you before. But, pleeeeeaase, don’t get a Panarama. They are just too ugly.

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  67. SPC (5,643 comments) says:

    Reid, what a coincidence that the USA, the home of the conspiracy theory is also the home of belief in a being with a “name” based on the Hebrew word for adversary.

    How come “us and them” is cheap nationalism and “God and Satan” is the basis for your Judeo-Christian religion?

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  68. Harriet (4,975 comments) says:

    If you do that to the mechanic Johnboy then I suggest you don’t use your Panarama to take ‘keep sakes’, as wifes usually find them – and they then get to keep the Porsche.

    By an old Humber 80. :cool:

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  69. SPC (5,643 comments) says:

    Harriet, just because you have that opinion on these issues does not mean that it should then apply in national law.

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  70. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    But there is room in the back for two sheep (and my sheep don’t mind ugly) Leonardo. :)

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  71. SPC (5,643 comments) says:

    Reid

    “Continue your braying. I mean, it sheds as much light on the subject as real braying from real donkeys does so hey, why not?”

    Is that a put down you learnt from right wing Judeo-Christian Americans for the secular Democrat point of view, as distinct from the creationist who is waiting for the end of the world to occur in accord with Christian Zionist propaganda.

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  72. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    Reid, what a coincidence that the USA, the home of the conspiracy theory is also the home of belief in a being with a “name” based on the Hebrew word for adversary.

    What?

    Is that a put down you learnt from right wing Judeo-Christian Americans for the secular Democrat point of view, as distinct from the creationist who is waiting for the end of the world to occur in accord with Christian Zionist propaganda.

    No, neither of those. I thought it up all by myself. Something inside of me was saying don’t say that Reid, but I didn’t listen to it very hard.

    I’m also not sure what you mean by right wing Judeo-Christian Americans for the secular Democrat point of view either, but I didn’t want to ask you two what’s in a row, I thought you might take that as me being rude.

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  73. SPC (5,643 comments) says:

    Reid,

    1. you are unaware that you share a belief in a being called “Satan” and a fondness for conspiracy theory in common with many Americans, or you are unaware that the name was based on the Hebrew word for adversary?

    2. you are unaware that the donkey is associated with US Democrats, the more “secular” party and that Republicans think themselves the more Judeo-Christian party? Or you just forgot?

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  74. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    Crikey:

    1. you are unaware that you share a belief in a being called “Satan” and a fondness for conspiracy theory in common with many Americans,

    No.

    or you are unaware that the name was based on the Hebrew word for adversary?

    Yes

    2. you are unaware that the donkey is associated with US Democrats, the more “secular” party and that Republicans think themselves the more Judeo-Christian party?

    No, but I struggle to make connection with that knowledge which I do have and anything I’ve said tonight, last night, or really at any time, here on KB…

    Possibly you could skip the twenty questions and just come out and say whatever it is you have in mind?

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  75. SPC (5,643 comments) says:

    Reid,

    1. the American Democrat party is associated with the donkey that brays.
    2. the American Democrat party is associated with being the more secular party.
    3. Judeo-Christian Americans who believe in an adversary being also believe in a slanderer being (devil is Hebrew for slanderer), and they see the world as Babylon set for a fall.
    4. These Americans await the Second Coming.
    5. A former ruler of Babylon was said (book of Daniel) to have been turned into a donkey.
    6. Judeo-Christians probably think that whenever they elect a Democrat President they are living in Babylon
    7. They probably think that when they elect a Republican President that they have risen into a Christian nation state.

    Us and them politics and God and the adversary. Primitive, but then again 46% of Americans believe in creationism – as Mitt Romney put it not quite enough for him to become President. They call it the culture war in the USA.

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  76. gump (1,650 comments) says:

    @Harriet

    “The church however is the ONLY institution to speak out against ALL of that, and it is the largest NGO on earth.
    What does Nasska and co in the West expect the largest NGO on earth to do instead ? distribute condoms to the poorest people on earth, and in doing so excuse their behaviour? Africans instead need a family unit, a purpose to exist, not a sexclub and a welfare system.”

    —————————-

    You are wrong and your church is wrong.

    What Africans really need is the ability to avoid communicable diseases that will kill them in their 20s. Condoms give them that ability.

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  77. Scott (1,805 comments) says:

    Like DPF I like the look of the new pope. He is a humble man who has worked for the poor all his life.

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  78. RRM (9,933 comments) says:

    I love how religious fundies always focus on the part of the story that really matters.

    “Jesus washed the feet of his 12 apostles.”

    “The 12 apostles were MEN“.

    “Therefore, WOMEN MUST BE EXCLUDED!

    Come, come to your master and be controlled, simple people :-)

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  79. Griff (7,808 comments) says:

    The fallibility of papistism.
    Who decided?

    “in the Gospel of Mary it is Peter who is opposed to Mary’s words, because she is a woman. Peter has the same role in the Gospel of Thomas and in Pistis Sophia. In Pistis Sophia the Mary concerned is identified as Mary Magdalene.”[6] The final scene in the Gospel of Mary may also provide evidence that Mary is indeed Mary Magdalene. Levi, in his defense of Mary and her teaching, tells Peter “Surely the Savior knows her very well. That is why he loved her more than us.”[8] In the Gospel of Philip, a similar statement is made about Mary Magdalene.

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  80. SPC (5,643 comments) says:

    It was decided while the Council of Laodicea was gathered that only the current 27 New Testament books would be read in churches. This was agreed in following decades at later councils at Hippo and Carthage.

    No church at Rome, based on the office of Simon Peter, would include works that could in any way be seen to slight leadership in, of and over the church.

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  81. Kea (12,841 comments) says:

    The UN itself acknowledges that the Catholic Church is making major inroads into the lives of Africans.

    This UN ?

    “A French U.N. logistics expert in the Congo shot pornographic videos in his home, in which he had converted his bedroom into a photo studio for videotaping his sexual abuse of young girls. When police raided his home, the man was allegedly about to rape a 12-year-old girl sent to him in a law enforcement sting operation. As the Times reported, a senior Congolese police officer confirmed the bed was surrounded by large mirrors on three sides, with a remote control camera on the fourth side.”

    150 allegations of sex crimes by U.N. staffers, will explode if the pornographic videos and photos, now on sale in Congo, becoming public

    A 13-year-old girl, “Elizabeth” described to the BBC how 10 UN peacekeepers gang-raped her in a field near her Ivory Coast home.

    ‘Elizabeth’ tells the BBC about her abuse
    “They grabbed me and threw me to the ground and they forced themselves on me… I tried to escape but there were 10 of them and I could do nothing,” she said.

    “I was terrified. Then they just left me there bleeding.”
    Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2004/12/28177/#a46Yus80w2XikK51.99

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