The union view on jobs

March 16th, 2013 at 8:58 am by David Farrar

Kerri Jackson at Stuff reports:

Small businesses that cannot afford to pay their staff a should probably not be in business at all, a union leader says.

First Union general secretary said while the movement supporting a living wage of at least $18.40 an hour was generally targeted at large corporations and city councils, some undercapitalised small to medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) needed to think about their business practices as well.

“Why should a worker suffer for being employed by a business that maybe shouldn’t exist?

What an appalling statement. It shows the hatred for business that some union leaders have. owners often spend months or years struggling to set up a business when they can’t even pay themselves a salary. And they create jobs for others, but Robert Reid thinks they are making their workers suffer if they pay them less than $18.40 an hour.

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35 Responses to “The union view on jobs”

  1. Michael (899 comments) says:

    If a business can’t pay a Union prescribed living wage it should be closed. Then the Union fat cats can be satisfied that the newly unemployed person is being paid a subsistence allowance on the unemployment benefit.

    Minimum wage jobs may not be great work, but they provide a better life and opportunity to move up that welfare does not.

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  2. Viking2 (11,258 comments) says:

    What planet is this fuckwit from?

    Send him to India or Pakistan or Aphganistan for a couple of years.

    Uneducated without a brain.

    BUT we have to say that this attitude is encouraged by the State providing non work benefits.

    If the State stopped providing non work benefits to those that can work and removed the Labour Laws that control wages then people like this piece of crap would move to Australia becuase they wouldn’t have an audience nor would they be able to collect money without going and doing so.

    Time for some real action from the Nats.

    But they would rather have this shit infested upon people than do what’s right and stop interfering in all these things.

    Weak and hopless in the face of the enemy within.

    Just another example of bullying being supported by the Nats.

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  3. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    Tim Wikiriwhi Hell no! I am saying *we are* slaves to taxes! And it is impoverishing us and destroying our economy. Capitalism is not failing. It is being systematically corrupted by Marxist politicians. Thus we do not live under a real capitalist system but under a mixed Socialist economy of Fascism and communism. True capitalism is the Free-market in which people are free to work and create wealth for themselves and provide for their own…. self reliance and self responsibility, as long as they respect the rights of their neighbors. A true Capitalist/ Libertarian society functions via a completely different set of Laws, and the government is kept from encroaching upon individual rights and responsibilities. It is kept from giving favouritism to vested interests (think bail outs to the wealthy corporate, etc). It is kept from fostering dependence via handouts. It is kept restricted to it’s proper duties by being forbidden to impose New Taxes to grow it’s spheres of operation, etc. And Society functions via Free enterprise and voluntary associations. Sports associations, Art associations, Charities, Etc…. none of which require Government control or funding. Thus the Capitalist Libertarian society is one in which the citizens participate in the social institutions in a much more intimate way, not like the current system where the government does everything and the people become dependent upon the State for everything, and the institutions become ‘Soviet style’ Grey, industrial, Unionised, Top heavy, Backward, impersonal, Mega bureaucracies…

    All those evils are a proven result of Socialism, not capitalism.
    So many foolish people have unthinkingly swallowed all the Anti-capitalism/ anti Libertarian propaganda which has sprung up via the Rise of Marxist communism.
    All it’s anti western civilization, all it’s class warfare and hatred of wealth and property, etc.
    It has been taught in our schools for 100 years, by Politicians whom have wanted to grow the powers of the State at the expense of individual liberty and responsibility.
    Thus when the average person thinks of ‘Capitalism’ they have a completely warped Idea as to what it really is.
    The person who hates Capitalism and wants more socialism is actually hating Freedom, and individual rights and responsibility, and wanting instead greater Government Power and compulsion…ie more tyranny.
    It’s as simple as that.
    Marxism is Evil.
    He wanted to destroy free enterprise and private property and install a totalitarian State.
    And to achieve this he was telling his socialist comrades in Government To TAX, TAX, TAX!
    That’s how evil he was!
    He wanted to Bring down our society via poverty so that he could set up his evil All-powerful Communist Machine.

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  4. flipper (3,829 comments) says:

    This simply illustrates the stupidity of the idiot union cadre, the equally illiterate professional political class of the left, and the “tribe of highly intellectual left wing scribblers” (aka NZ Media) that portray and champion such nonsense.

    Currently in the US of A, the federally prescribed minimum wage is $US 7.95 per hour. Obama has made a plea for it to be raised to $US 9 per hour (it will not).

    Last time I looked that equates, even with a generous change discount, to somewhere between $NZ9.94 and $NZ11.25 per hour.

    And the stupid red melons, Labour and Peters blame only the exchange rate for perceiuved manufacturing woes.

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  5. OneTrack (2,799 comments) says:

    Flipper, this must be another situation that we “should do what Obama does” ie drop the minimum wage to 9.94. Well he is the messiah and has all the answers. How is that hopey, changey thing working out for them?

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  6. OneTrack (2,799 comments) says:

    ““Why should a worker suffer for being employed by a business that maybe shouldn’t exist?”

    -oh the horror and the shame. “suffering” by being employed by a business that shouldn’t exist (as decided by some apparatchik buried in Wellington).

    Since it is that bad, they could just quit their job and go back to an honest and noble life on the dole. Based on what that guy said, the union should be travelling around all of these small businesses and telling the employees to quit (I am a bit scared to suggest it to be honest in case one of these nutbars thinks it is a good idea)

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  7. Craig (21 comments) says:

    How does he think big businesses got started?
    The real question is why did Stuff publish this dribble?

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  8. Viking2 (11,258 comments) says:

    Just so we could all be well informed about the stupid kind of shit heads tyhat are out there.

    Mind you I haven’t seen a Govt. Minister of Labour get out of bed to asttack this attitude. Too tired to be bothered.
    Nice day in Tauranga for going to the BBQ

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  9. Bob (495 comments) says:

    I wouldn’t say Robert Reid necessarily hates business. Like so many unionists he is just ignorant. A man earning $15 an hour might be able to pay his rent and live. If his employer gives up the business and puts him off he has no money for rent. In a small town there might be no other work. Some of those on low wages might not be the breadwinners but wives with a sideline job helping make house payments happy to get what they do. In small towns there might not be the customer base to build up a large profitable business. Residents are happy someone will set up a business which is needed.

    Robert Reid might not be biting the hand which feeds him but is biting the hand which feeds others.

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  10. jaba (2,095 comments) says:

    you can see why they are called the F U union

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  11. rg (200 comments) says:

    This also gives more credibility to the living wage of $18.40 than it deserves. A living wage for a 16 year old living with Mum and Dad is different to that of a married man with children. It also differs between people and for some it is enough for others not.

    We should all earn a living wage, but only we can decide what that is and it is our responsibility to do enough to earn it. It is no one elses.

    The message from all this should be that kids at school should be taught that they need to equip themselves to support themselves and what they will earn depends on choices they make.

    If a worker accepts a wage of $13.50 it is because that is the best option for them. The boss is giving them an oportunity to improve their situation, the boss as a hero, not a villain.

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  12. Nookin (3,178 comments) says:

    “The real question is why did Stuff publish this dribble?”

    I think it is important that electors see what is involved with a Union/Labour/Green coalition. Helen Kelly said exactly the same thing on telly not so long ago. I do not think we will ever here the likes of Kelly or this twat saying “let’s sit down and work out together what will make this business hum?” It is just not part of their psyche. The lines of division are drawn and the battle is always ready to commence.

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  13. wat dabney (3,721 comments) says:

    The idea that every work opportunity should offer a living wage is utterly absurd. There is a whole spectrum of jobs to be done, ranging from company directorships etc at the top-end being paid millions, to part-time shelf-stacking and suchlike at the other.

    We all take the best we can get given our circumstances and given the skills we worked to acquire.

    Like “equality”, this living-wage idea is simply a tactic of leftist bosses to create an agenda for themselves. Their problem is that capitalism – even today’s hugely diluted versions – is the proven solution to poverty and is the workers’ best friend. Unfortunately for the likes of Reid and his troughing cronies, a competitive free market doesn’t provide the necessary rent-seeking opportunities. Hence, fuck the workers we’re campaigning to replace freedom and prosperity with a command economy, with us as the bosses.

    Disgusting, disgusting people.

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  14. flipper (3,829 comments) says:

    One track..
    Quite agree

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  15. Nostalgia-NZ (5,036 comments) says:

    ‘It shows the hatred for business that some union leaders have. Small business owners often spend months or years struggling to set up a business when they can’t even pay themselves a salary.’

    Dramatic licence there. All it shows is that Robert Reid is a dickhead. People don’t have to work for below the ‘liveable wage.’ Secondly, any small business providing work during tough times fits in with the majority of what keeps the economy ticking over – small business. It’s been well cataloged for years that most small business owners can’t describe their job readily, the reason being is that they have to multi task, work long hours, supervise good motivated staff and put up with drongos who think the world owes them a living. I don’t know who Robert Reid is but I bet he does f a work with the attitude he has displayed here. Tough times rely on people working together in a harsh economy not dimwits elevating themselves and their opinions above those that roll their sleeves up and actually work. DPF elevating it to ‘hate’ is just as silly as the original comment.

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  16. Warren Murray (291 comments) says:

    This attitude makes me a little angry. The business owner takes a risk, provides jobs, etc. If the wages offered are below the market for that type of work, they will probably increase their risk by recruiting lower quality staff or bear the cost of high staff turnover. The employees have much less risk, but can acquire skills that they can take with them into a higher paid job.

    It seems the union folk have no idea that without capital there are no jobs. Those who provide the capital should get their reward just as those who sell their time should get their wage.

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  17. flipper (3,829 comments) says:

    Michael..
    Off topic, but apropos union ignorance, ….
    The highly intelligent (sic) NZEI union boss, one J. Goulter, criticised Novapay for sending Baycorp after $22+ change “overpaid” to a part time teacher who was, in fact, not working. Having repaid the $1840 she was overpaid, the $22+ change remained.

    Care to guess where that sum, went?

    Yep, to NZEI for union fees. That info was in the public arena when silly TV One did their PR piece for the NZEI.

    I hold no brief for Novapay (f/wits)….. but unions should also be subject to Commerce Commission scrutiny, should they not? :)

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  18. flipper (3,829 comments) says:

    Nostalgia-NZ…
    A big thumbs up for you

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  19. Lance (2,555 comments) says:

    That idiotic statement from Reid makes it sound like the employees have been pressed ganged into the work.
    If they don’t like the wages, they can leave can’t they?

    And as has been pointed out by others here. Shutting down those businesses that can’t afford to pay more will lead to those people being unemployed. How can this be good?

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  20. Chris2 (768 comments) says:

    Is this the same Robert Reid who was a member of the Workers Communist League back in the 80′s?

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  21. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    A moron, a socialist Labour-voter and a fuckwit.

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  22. wat dabney (3,721 comments) says:

    How can this be good?

    Good for whom?

    Don’t imagine for one second that these people are genuinely trying to act in the interests of the workers. Ignore the crocodile tears.

    The more fear and job uncertainty there is, the better for Reid and his cronies.

    And there’s nothing that works to this effect quite like minimum wage legislation. They get all the benefit, their opponents are depicted as greedy and uncaring, and the workers are thrown under a bus.

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  23. David Farrar (1,871 comments) says:

    Robert Reid helped form the Workers Communist League.

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  24. virtualmark (1,514 comments) says:

    I can never figure out why, if business owners are so stupid and inept, the unions don’t just setup their own businesses themselves.

    Robert Reid and First Union should feel free to setup their own fast food joint, their cleaning business, etc etc and pay their staff a living wage, give them 6 months fully paid parental leave etc etc.

    Surely the best way for the unions to demonstrate the brilliance and righteousness of their views is by putting them into real-life practice?

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  25. emmess (1,395 comments) says:

    If the dipshit unionists logic wasn’t fucked up enough

    Consider this

    Say that company is has 100 staff and is paying 10 of them under the ‘living’ wage and as a result of wage increase it pushes the company into bankruptcy. Now 90 more people are ‘not able to live’ according to these dumb shits.

    Sure most of them would find other well paying jobs but you get the point.

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  26. Nostalgia-NZ (5,036 comments) says:

    Cheers flipper.

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  27. Reid (16,095 comments) says:

    DPF elevating it to ‘hate’ is just as silly as the original comment.

    No that’s just how it really is.

    I guarantee if you did an attitudinal survey amongst union officials across the country and designed it in a way that produced honest answers it would come up with that result. This is quite obvious when you talk to any of them on this topic in an atmosphere where they feel free to voice their real opinions. A union official who has a reasonable attitude toward employers is by far the exception, not the rule. All you have to do is listen to the mutterings of Helen Kelly for example, the hatred just drips from her, just like it does from Sue Bradford.

    If the shoe fits…

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  28. duggledog (1,431 comments) says:

    The difference between left and right:

    What should be, and what is.

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  29. duggledog (1,431 comments) says:

    Reid, I agree. From my experience, people like this fall into two categories. They are:

    1: Offspring of upper middle class parents (trustafarians) who just can’t bear the thought that people might be poor. They’ve seen poor people from a distance and want to do something to make everybody happy because everybody should be happy. As I’ve said before they find poor people faintly revolting, but don’t actually want to live amongst them thank you very much. They go to University and sit about plotting how to make things right (Clark, Wilson etc etc), and then get into politics.

    2: Offspring of genuinely poor people, but poor people with cloth caps sewn into their scalps. Raised with bitter hatred towards the well off, they become union leaders and go about their business of stirring up resentment towards the nasty bosses (whose ultimate goal is often nothing more than a decent runabout and a beach house) until the weight of regulation stifles the business and kills it.

    When I come across people like this, I always ask them what their father did and where they grew up. I’m never surprised by the answer.

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  30. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    What’s the significance? I’m not sure it shows that Robert Reid is a prize moron who said something dumb when he was confronted with the incontrovertible results of his ill-considered policy proposals. Interesting that Fairfax went with the headline “Secretary of union questions low wages.” instead of “Secretary of union questions existence of small businesses.”

    I think the significance is that it illustrates two points that need to be hammered every time some self-righteous union organiser opens his mouth:

    1 – Union demands favour big business over small business and market incumbents over market newcomers. Higher minimum wages help big businesses who can afford the additional payroll burden while small business’s can’t. Unsurprisingly, big businesses are more likely to be unionised than small businesses.

    2 – Unions don’t represent the unemployed – they represent their members (sometimes poorly). Higher wages might mean more subscriptions from unionised sectors – which is good for the unions. If it means more unemployed people in other sectors then that’s no concern of the union.

    You would think that the media would ensure some of this context when reporting on matters, of course. However, because journalism tends to attract people who(at least in this country) probably have less native intelligence than most comparitvely educated folk, are not widely read, have poor analytical skills and are willing to accept a job with low prospects of material success they tend not to be up to scratch in this regard.

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  31. Carlos (687 comments) says:

    As someone who is setting up his first company, I’d just like to personally take a moment to say to Robert Reid, “Fuck you!”

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  32. Reid (16,095 comments) says:

    duggledog two other trustafarians you can add to your list are Nicky Hagar and Sue Kedgeley. I think your demographic is spot on. I wonder what it is about such people’s upbringing that they turn out so, so.. twisted, is probably the right word. It’d be good to know, might provide some useful insight into the lefty mindset. Personally I’d go for ‘deprived of oxygen during birth’ as an initial hypothesis.

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  33. Viking2 (11,258 comments) says:

    Cato (493) Says:
    March 16th, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    What’s the significance? I’m not sure it shows that Robert Reid is a prize moron who said something dumb when he was confronted with the incontrovertible results of his ill-considered policy proposals. Interesting that Fairfax went with the headline “Secretary of union questions low wages.” instead of “Secretary of union questions existence of small businesses.”

    I think the significance is that it illustrates two points that need to be hammered every time some self-righteous union organiser opens his mouth:

    1 – Union demands favour big business over small business and market incumbents over market newcomers. Higher minimum wages help big businesses who can afford the additional payroll burden while small business’s can’t. Unsurprisingly, big businesses are more likely to be unionised than small businesses.

    ———————————
    Oh so true. Used to have to deal with this years ago, that was until the very staff that they tried to rort told them to fuck off and never ever enter the building again. (certain dire consequences sure sorted out the A—-s)(At 4 am in the morning all without any prompting by me. Funny to listen to afterwards.

    2 – Unions don’t represent the unemployed – they represent their members (sometimes poorly). Higher wages might mean more subscriptions from unionised sectors – which is good for the unions. If it means more unemployed people in other sectors then that’s no concern of the union.

    Again correct and with auto payments they don’t even have to front to collect the money. In tyhe old days remember staying at work until 5 am waiting for the Union guy to go home. He didn’t, just sat there waiting to collect off the guys at the end of theior shift. Then back to one of the down town boozers open behind closed doors in downtown Wellington.

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  34. Viking2 (11,258 comments) says:

    So aussie is going into a bad place.

    Budget sinks further with no sign of revival

    by: David Uren, Economics Editor
    From: The Australian
    March 16, 2013 12:00AM

    THE federal budget sank $4.6 billion further into deficit in the first four weeks of the year, without any sign of the revival in revenue that had prompted forecasts of a surplus.

    Treasury figures released yesterday showed the deficit had reached $26.8bn for the first seven months of the financial year, far from the $1.2bn surplus forecast in the mid-year review by the end of June. Wayne Swan conceded in December that the promised surplus would not be achieved in the face of weak revenue.

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  35. NZGroover (13 comments) says:

    I suspect Robert Reid has never run a business. An astounding lack of understanding of basics.

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