General Debate 6 April 2013

April 6th, 2013 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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78 Responses to “General Debate 6 April 2013”

  1. Nookin (3,341 comments) says:

    It’s getting a bit chilly in the south. Another frost. It will be a lovely sunny day though and I am not going to for for a change. Morning all.

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  2. Viking2 (11,467 comments) says:

    That’s the rain done for a while again.
    Bays grass is green.

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  3. Viking2 (11,467 comments) says:

    More Pubic Service waste of taxpayers money defending the indefensible.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/8516413/Prosecution-for-breaching-perverts-rights

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  4. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    Judith Collin’s “Cyber bullying and harmful digital communications bill” is a joke, and the kind of law you might find in some banana republic somewhere. Full of utterly meaningless subjective language that allows prosecution on any grounds.

    The Law Commission are asses and Judith Collins is a statist thug who needs to leave our parliament now.

    People should be far more concerned about what this traitor to the principles of the National Party is doing.

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  5. Viking2 (11,467 comments) says:

    Do we wonder at all, as taxpayers, why there is any good reason at all for allowing publickly outed thugs to use the legal process to sanitize their behavoir.
    The CHCH case is one just of that. Two thugs dressed in fancy new suits and supported by a fancy “lawyer” using the system both to delay thier ineveitable sentencing for thuggery, all paid for by the taxpayer.
    Why are these people not put before the judge, evidence heard immediately and sentence carried out.
    Why do we have this inbuilt delay?
    Why don';t we be like China, put them in jail until their defence has the case ready, sentence them and if they consider themselves hard done by spend their own money on appeal?
    Why Whywhy.

    Someone will know, is this case being paid for by the taxpayer via legal aid. If so, why?

    The taxpayer really is a sucker. Aren’t we.

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  6. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    Grant Robertson will be interviewed on The Nation this morning. He seems to be looking forward to it:

    Grant Robertson ‏@grantrobertson1

    @TheNationTV3 see you there, bright and early.

    That’s not surprising, he must like his chances of getting a good interview. Yesterday on Firstline the producer of The Nation, Richard Harman, said:

    Opposition ‘has the high ground’ in spy saga

    Mr Harman praised Labour deputy leader Grant Robertson’s handling of the scandal, saying it made sense for Mr Robertson to take on the attack dog role, rather than leader David Shearer.

    “I think they’ve been very effective, and I think Grant Robertson has taken this issue very effectively. There’s two interesting things about Grant Robertson on this one – he’s a former diplomat, so he knows a little bit about the murky, secret world; two, he’s worked in the Prime Minister’s office, so he knows how these things pan out.

    “Grant Robertson is a creature of Wellington. He knows how these things work, and that may be why they’ve given it to him.”

    Will Rachel Smalley give Robertson a platform to continue his disengenuous attacks on Key? Or will she expose him to scrutiny? There are a number of pertinent questions Robertson should be answering.

    Grant Robertson – pre-interview praise by The Nation producer

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  7. Nookin (3,341 comments) says:

    Here is the first question

    “Mr Robertson, when Greig J resigned as the head of the SIS, nobody wanted the job and the then Prime Minister announced that there would be shoulder tapping. Were you working for the Prime Minister department at that time and were you involved in that process?”

    PG – I have never seen Rachel Smalley put a spokesperson for the Labour Party on the spot or challenge their position.

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  8. duggledog (1,554 comments) says:

    Pete, interesting to hear Michelle Boag AND Brian Edwards on National Radio yesterday pm both agreeing the whole thing is a complete farce and that the PM needs to go on the offensive with this.

    Again, I don’t know the Left puts so much effort into what the general populace will only ever regard as a bit of Wellington scuttlebutt. Even if Robertson and co get themselves a scalp it will be instantly forgotten. Hopeless

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  9. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    Thanks Nookin, I’d seen that mentioned over the last couple of days but couldn’t find it. I’ve posted it separately, linked on Twitter and replicated at The Nation on Facebook.

    I think it’s fair enough that John Key refuses to respond to ‘gotcha’ type questions until he has had a chance to check what actally happened first. Labour and media spend a lot of time trying to trip politicians up rather than pursuing the truth.

    I’d be happy for Shearer to get decent answers to questions too before waffling.

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  10. CharlieBrown (1,011 comments) says:

    Redbaiter – You can’t be a traitor to National party principals as they have none. Did Ruth Richardsons government have the same principals as Robert Muldoons government? There have been very few national party government that has had any principal – their main concern has always been about staying in power.

    Lets face it National aren’t good at writing good laws. Its typical of John Key’s government to introduce law or policy that is very open to interpretation.

    And you are right about the law commission – get rid of anything that has the word commission at the end of its name.

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  11. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    Surprising to see this change in marriage law in Spain:

    The legal age for marriage is being raised in Spain.

    At the moment, people as young as 14 can get married in Spain.

    The minimum age is being raised to 16, in an effort to protect minors from sex abuse.

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/1553372766-legal-age-for-marriage-raised-in-spain

    Interesting to see the variations in marriage ages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age

    They range mostly between 15 and 21, with some countries different ages with parental consent, and many having a younger marriage age for females and some leniency for younger ages.

    Indonesia: 19 for males and 16 for females. Marriage at younger ages is legal with parental consent

    There are many variations to marriage law around the world.

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  12. mandk (992 comments) says:

    Viking2 (9,184) Says:
    April 6th, 2013 at 8:13 am

    I agree with most of what you say.

    They’ll get a pathetically limp sentence in the end on the grounds that they are making an important contribution to the ChCh rebuild.

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  13. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    Claire Trevett starts scrutinising Grant Robertson and Sir Bruce Ferguson.

    Mr Key accused Labour’s Grant Robertson of “low-rent politics” and claimed Helen Clark had also shoulder-tapped people to take on roles.

    RadioLive host and former Labour MP John Tamihere agreed with him.

    “Helen Clark went out there and shoulder-tapped people, said ‘you’re in the job’. I didn’t do that,” Mr Key said.

    He did not provide examples, but senior sources have claimed Sir Bruce Ferguson was directly approached by Helen Clark to be Chief of Defence in 2001. Sir Bruce did not return calls yesterday, but the appointment had raised eyebrows because he was chosen over more senior personnel.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10875732

    I warned Grant Robertson a few days ago his attacks could come back to bite him on the bum (ignored of course, and Toby Manhire sneered at me). But the bite back may be starting to happen – and may haunt him should he become deputy PM or PM.

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  14. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    “Judith Collins is a statist thug”

    Red you’re a fuckwit, a knuckle dragging idiot who wouldn’t recognise a thug if one kicked you in the balls.

    I think the proposed legislation is unnecessary but seeing an idiot like you commenting on it probably means it has legs as you are so rarely right about anything.

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  15. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    It was obvious Robertson’s hypocrisy could blow back in his face.

    The motives and loyalties of Sir Bruce Ferguson may also become embarrassing for him.

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  16. Nookin (3,341 comments) says:

    PG here is Clark’s unashamed announcement that she will be tapping shoulders. I cannot recall any of the current labour mob, being those who were there at the time, announcing their resignation in protest at the undermining of the separation of the powers. Maybe Mr Robertson can help and explain what stance he took at the time. Did he berate the then Prime Minister?
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/ahmed-zaoui/news/article.cfm?c_id=549&objectid=3561493

    PS — I erred earlier. It was the role of the inspector-general and not the head of the SIS.

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  17. flipper (4,051 comments) says:

    Just a small GCSB aside…

    The media (well some) are now referring to Fletcher as “the country’s top spy.”

    I cannot recall, and am not much interested anyway, who heads the SIS. But the head of the SIS is surely the nation’s top spy, is he not?

    Yet another knucklehead example. :)

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  18. publicwatchdog (2,593 comments) says:

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    2013 Auckland Mayoral Candidate

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  19. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    >What info in this Mighty River Power prospectus – do you consider to be ‘misleading’?

    Penny: absolutely none, because your link doesn’t go anywhere. (Is it something attached to an email you received, or what?)I

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  20. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Re the ChCh thugs..I do not know anything about legal aid these days but there are two certainties in our so called justice system..One rule for whites , one rule for Maori..If these two had been young unemployed Maori men or just recently employed Maori men they would not have got bail initially..They would certainly not have got bail the second time.. Statistics supporting this were in the media recently.
    The other issue is money..If you have enough money or property you will be treated more favourably. The older man obviously has a few assets. He may well have a few other useful connections particularly having been in business in CHCH.
    I wonder what the rest of you thought of Jonathan Eaton seeming to minimise Jesse Ryder’s injuries. I thought it was really crass. Eaton is known in CHCH as the go to guy when you are really in trouble..hardly surprising that he is now involved.
    Judges in NZ receive very little scrutiny. We have a legal system not a justice system.

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  21. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    Climate sceptic’s checklist:

    1. Not real
    2. Real but not man made
    3. Man made but we can’t do much
    4. We can but I’ll be dead by then so whatever

    (Source: @GeorgeBludger)

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  22. Nostalgia-NZ (5,191 comments) says:

    peb Hope that it’s not unworldy of me to say that I trust you noted that Jesse Ryder’s injury is now claimed to have been from his head striking the ground after he’d suffered a single punch.

    There was a good atmosphere at Eden Park late in the game, after some earlier trepidation of the Blue’s scrum disintegrating on the line. The scrum definitely improved when Kevin M came on.

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  23. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    I don’t know why so many people are concerned with the ‘shoulder tapping’ thing. Its been done by so many for so long, that it really is a non issue.

    What is the issue is the lack of openness and transparency in government by ALL.

    As was pointed out JK ‘vaguely’ knew the guy but recommended him for a very important job? Something does fit in that picture.

    The problem for me, and the real people I’ve spoken to in the last couple of days is JK’s constant avoidance of telling it how it really is. His episodes of ‘brain fade’ are no longer a joke. Even now, his solution to the problem, because he doesn’t like the medias attack of him, is to limit what he says – like some petulant school boy making them all suffer. But actually he is withholding information from his ‘employers’ the public in doing that.

    He wants to have time to ‘think’ about the answers – which raises some big questions mostly ‘suspicions’.

    Police training will tell you, when a person needs time to answer, you can bet they are needing to put together a ‘good’ story.

    Clark was as bad, but does that mean we let this sort of thing continue, and the next person can blame Key, and so on.

    Openness and transparency was what Key promised us – it was a refreshing promise after so many years of lies – and yet, we don’t seem to be getting anymore than what we got previously – and to make it worse, we get ‘its ok for me to do it, because she did’. NOT good enough.

    I say dock them all a months wages and put them on warning to sort themselves out!

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  24. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    Clark was as bad, but does that mean we let this sort of thing continue, and the next person can blame Key, and so on.

    No reason for that. Also not reason to accept that attack politics trying to create scandals out of mistakes in response either, that’s stink politics that parties should not be involved in. Amongst other things it risks legitimate holding to account that get’s lost in the ‘cry wolf’ noise.

    I say dock them all a months wages and put them on warning to sort themselves out!

    It needs something to bring about a change in political behaviour. UInfortuneately docking their pay won’t work, that is out of the politicians’ hands.

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  25. niggly (830 comments) says:

    Judith, John Key has, to an extent, tried to be “open and transparent” when National took power in 2008.

    But it has blown back in his face.

    By the usual suspects, certain journalists and opposition politicians.

    For example he lifted the lid on MP’s expenses. So what happens next? Journos and opposition politicians scrutinise each MP’s expenditure to the Nth degree looking for dirt. And them trumpet it in the media.

    Another example he relaxed the reporting around the SAS’s movements in Afghanistan. So what happens next? Journos and opposition politicians then question what the SAS are doing day in and day out and compromise their operational safety.

    What is the answer Judith to this “dilema” if you were the Prime Minister? Become more open or become less open?

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  26. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    niggly (638) Says:
    April 6th, 2013 at 11:26 am
    What is the answer Judith to this “dilema” if you were the Prime Minister? Become more open or become less open?
    —————————-
    Unless it is concerning matters of national security – the answer is YES!

    If JK had right at the beginning of this debacle said yep, I knew him, went to school with him and I recommended him because I think he’s good stuff – there would be the ‘shoulder tapping’ accusations, but basically the wind would have been taken out of the argument. He’s created this mine field himself. Just like he did over the teacups debacle. There was nothing in that conversation that was really wrong – if he’s let the tapes go, said he’d had a bit of a joke about Winston, nothing worse than he’s said anywhere else – and again prevented the speculation – the whole thing would have fallen flat.

    For me its the same old crap we’ve had before, he’s no better than Helen was.

    Openness and transparency – too right. Stop treating us like bloody mushrooms – tell us the truth and let us decide for ourselves what we think – because when he doesn’t, and the media does, then its always going to be much worse, take up valuable time and energy that should be spent elsewhere. Tell the truth – it takes the sting out of any media backlash.

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  27. Fletch (6,367 comments) says:

    Qantas now Sharia compliant. No more pork or alcohol on flights to and from Europe.

    QANTAS has removed pork from its in-flight menu on flights to and from Europe as a result of its partnership with Middle Eastern airline Emirates.

    No food containing pork or pork products will be served on those flights – which now has a stopover in Dubai – because it is strictly forbidden in Islam and is considered “unholy”.

    All meals offered on the route in first, business and economy classes will also be prepared without alcohol in keeping with the Islamic religion. A note on the Qantas menus on flights in and out of Dubai states that the meals do not contain pork products or alcohol. The airline has also introduced a mezze plate offering traditional Middle Eastern fare in its upper classes and has Arabic translations after in-flight announcements.

    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/pigs-cant-fly-qantas-bans-pork-on-in-flight-menu-to-respect-islam/story-e6freuy9-1226612841997

    As the article goes on to point out, they don’t make the same concessions for anyone flying to Israel, where pork is also a no-no.

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  28. niggly (830 comments) says:

    Judith thanks for your considerate answer.

    Hypothetically of course, should you become PM one day, I do hope you are able to carry out the role in an honest and transparent manner as you aspire to, and somehow avoid getting tripped up by certain journos and opposition politicians that like mud fights looking to exploit your honesty!

    I take it you like the ‘honesty’ of the Greens eg their modus operandi is to own up when caught out? Which of course is a good thing (to own up).

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  29. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    niggly (639) Says:
    April 6th, 2013 at 11:49 am
    ————————-

    As I said the other day Niggly, I don’t like any of them much at the moment. I think they all need to ‘grow up’.

    Me be PM? They couldn’t pay me enough to do that job but that doesn’t stop me from having a right to criticise those not doing it correctly. Its ‘Dictator’ or nothing for me! ;-)

    My main point is – I want openness and transparency – I accept it is not an easy thing to provide – but don’t promise what you have no intention of fulfilling.

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  30. flipper (4,051 comments) says:

    Judith,

    If only the world of politics and the bureaucracy (are they not, in the final analysis one and the same?) were as pure and simple as we would all wish.

    The problem is the half-assed system that we have in place. Some appointments are (by statute or convention?) subject to Ministerial veto. Some, says Rennie, are Ministerial appointments. But then we have an idiotic procedure whereby Rennie can be surprised by Key’s actions. Getting down to it, if the statute says it is a Ministerial appointment, then the procedure alleged to have been breached is a load oif bollocks.

    We must face the fact that the SSC and its operating procedures are dinosaur like. They suited an age long past.

    The bureaucracy has always been covertly political.

    If he were still alive, Norman Kirk would tell (as he told me), of his continual clashes with Henry Lang.

    I can relate my own experiences. One example will suffice. I was commissioned by a Minister (following a Cabinet decision) to write a policy document/report on a certain matter. To facilitate this I was given an office in the department’s Head Office (where I was given access to all files and overseas data, not publicly available), just two doors removed from the Secretary (ads he then was).

    When I had the document completed to final draft stage I thought it would be a courtesy, and appropriate, to ask the Secretary for his comments. He hit the roof and told me that his Ministry was totally opposed to the policy direction set out. I pointed out that the policy direction was well known and had been foreshadowed during the preceding election campaign. He also questioned why I had consulted individuals and organisations outside the Government bureaucracy.

    His response: “Well that may be the Government’s policy, but this Ministry has its own policy, and we will prevail”. (They didn’t).

    To use a more recent example of the difficulties associated with SSC appointments, take Crown Law.

    When Heron was consulted by Collins over Binnie/Bain, and he gave her “advice”, did it reflect his independent view, or was it the Crown Law establishment’s default position?

    More transparency? Not possible with the current system Scrub it.

    All contracts should expire six weeks after the declaration of every General Election result. All appointments should be Ministerial. No exceptions. Then we would know exactly where to pin responsibility when things go wrong.

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  31. Reid (16,441 comments) says:

    I don’t know why so many people are concerned with the ‘shoulder tapping’ thing. Its been done by so many for so long, that it really is a non issue.

    The media is, Judith. This is the opening salvo of removing Key’s honeymoon from the eyes of the public. You recall that story a few weeks back about that honeymoon? Well, take a look at the photos both the Herald and Stuff have been running every single time they’ve posted another breathless instalment on this story. Go back and look at all of them since the time it broke. All of them have been specifically and carefully selected to present Key with a snide, arrogant expression. Like I said, take a look at them. Visuals are critical in propaganda, because they convey the emotional content of the message, spoken or written words merely convey information, which people process matter-of-factly. Visuals however evoke emotions in the reader/listener and they subconsciously associate that emotion with the information they are processing.

    This is nothing more than a propaganda campaign driven by a media all acting in concert and it’s happening right now before all our eyes. That’s what it is and the same anti-Key theme will continue, even after the news cycle moves on from this appointment meme. And then the poll figures will start to change. You watch.

    The thing about it is, while it’s an execrable betrayal of trust by the media in that propaganda is not their job and they are using their reputation in the public’s mind to smear lies and falsehoods, that’s not the worst. The worst is the bastards are taking a non-issue, as Edwards says, it has no traction, it’s nothing. And the media – all of them – are breathlessly pretending it’s got substance. When they know all along, it doesn’t. So its a double betrayal – they not only use naked propaganda as transparent as any Soviet-era poster, they lie about the substantive issue which is being used as the vehicle to convey it.

    It’s a shame the public are so profoundly stupid this will pass them straight by without them knowing, because as I’ve often said, propaganda only works when you don’t know its propaganda. But then, when you have idiotic shows like that stupid TV3 debate show which is clearly aimed at village-idiot morons and it still gets ratings, what do we expect.

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  32. Paulus (2,626 comments) says:

    Can Robertson be asked Parliament how many “appointments” Helen Clark made by telling (via Simpson probably so she can deny liability) various posts that were made ?

    Apparently she just people in the Public Service that they have the job.

    Remember the lying Mark Prebble was her Departmental Head in 1998, then got “appointed” State Services Commissioner.

    He of course was lilly white in the Setchell affair, and Benson-Pope lies.

    As number three in Clark’s private office Robertson would have been privy to all these decisions.

    How was Bruce Ferguson appointed – SSC – yea. It is rumoured that he was just told he had the job.

    He appears bitter that his preferred replacement candidate did not get the job, as he says that he knew all the other shortlisted candidates – how ? No doubt it was another military person (man).

    Much of the perceived problems to be announced could be under his watch, so he is getting in first.

    I would assume that role of Head of GCSB need not necessarily be a military person – it needs an open minded person who is not schooled in the Defence force narrow training and single mindedness.

    This may have been the case in the past but management skill are now preferred. A manager can employ the technicians needed.

    I see Armstrong in the dreadful Herald is still hanging his hat along with I understand about 20 so called media buffs in continuing to denigrate Key. Perhaps he should look a the opinion polls.

    He has become a rather sad old man in his continued snide commentaries.

    Whereas Robertson is becoming most Prime Minsterial in his dress and outlook – pissing all over his leader – but remember as Clark’s number three, after Simpson, he is privy to a lot of secrets and backdoor deals which Shearer is not, and would not understand anyway – (a nice guy, but not a shit enough to lead Labour – unlike Robertson he not a well schooled backstabbing homosexual).

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  33. RichardX (326 comments) says:

    Fletch, re your 11.35, does Qantas code share or have any other sort of partnership with El Al?
    If not, then your comparison of flying to/from Dubai with flying to/from Israel is invalid
    There were good strategic decisions for Qantas to replace its traditional Singapore stopover to Europe with Dubai and to imply religion, particularly Islam, had anything to do with it demonstrates your unbalanced view of the world

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  34. niggly (830 comments) says:

    To back up your fabulous examples of propaganda in action Reid, (some) people hopefully would have noticed the likes of Andrea Vance/Fairfax and Radio NZ using the following words in their reporting lately (and have also done so in the past):

    “There are growing calls …” (i.e. for the PM to come clean on …. insert here – the latest SSC/JK/GSCB issue …. or insert here …. previous JK/GSCB issues – etc).

    Bollocks! The so called “growing calls” are coming from these Opposition MP’s and these strange little journalists. Not the public!

    One should take note – they will read/hear these words time and time again.

    Mind you, the best one I heard was on a Radio NZ 7am news bulletin last year (at the time the PM criticised the Hungarians PRT not patrolling the NE of Bamiyan Province and a Hungarian official was interviewed a couple of days later). The news reader read out something like “the Hungarians say the PM has LIED about their PRT ….”. Funny thing was, on Morning Report moments later when they interviewed the Hungarian official, I never heard him once say or imply that the PM lied or was being misleading!

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  35. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    Media clowns live in their own little circus world,where no doubt what they think is important is what they want us all to think is important.

    They act as gatekeepers on information and cheer leaders for their own ,usually “progressive” causes.

    For the most part a bunch of shallow,self important little arrogant pricks (and prickesses)

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  36. Reid (16,441 comments) says:

    On the NI/SI naming thing, Raybon Kahn had what IMO is an excellent suggestion.

    SI = Treasure Island
    NI = Fantasy Island

    Imagine how many movie studios would want to come here if we took up that idea.

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  37. niggly (830 comments) says:

    Well since the country is broke why not sell the naming rights to earn some foreign exchange to the highest bidder?

    Apple have tens of billions of dollars stashed away, perhaps for one billion dollars per year they get to name one of the islands Mac Island or something (Microsoft or Oracle could buy the naming rights to the other island).

    Mind you the PRC are rich too, how about they get the naming rights to one island (and a smart Govt would sell the naming rights of the other island to Taiwan – nothing like a bit of checkbook diplomacy to ensure “competition” gives us a good price)? ;-)

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  38. Lance (2,654 comments) says:

    @niggly
    Naming rights for big bucks, I like that, especially since the Nth/Sth naming thing is such BS.
    So long as the country name of New Zealand remains un-fiddled with.

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  39. Reid (16,441 comments) says:

    This is interesting:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2304361/Was-Robert-Maxwell-Soviet-spy-FBI-files-reveal-US-fears-reveal-media-mogul-working-Russia.html

    in light of this:
    http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.nz/2011/03/mossads-maxwell-prince-andrew-tom.html

    “Having learned many of the key secrets of the Soviet empire, Maxwell was given his greatest chance to be a super spy.

    “Mossad had stolen from America the most important piece of software in the US arsenal.

    “Maxwell was given the job of marketing the stolen software, called Promis.

    “Mossad had reconstructed the software and inserted into it a device which enabled them to track the use any purchaser made of the it. Sitting in Israel, Mossad would know exactly what was going on inside all the intelligence services that bought it.

    “In all, Maxwell sold it to 42 countries, including China and Soviet Bloc nations. But his greatest triumph was selling it to Los Alamos, the very heart of the US nuclear defence system.

    “The more successful Maxwell became the more risks he took and the more dangerous he was to Mossad. At the same time, the very public side of Maxwell, who then owned 400 companies, began to unwind.

    “He spent lavishly and lost money on deals. The more he lost, the more he tried to claw money from the banks. Then he saw a way out of his problems.

    “He was approached by Vladimir Kryuchkov, head of the KGB. Spymaster and tycoon met in the utmost secrecy in the Kremlin.

    “Kryuchkov had an extraordinary proposal. He wanted Maxwell to help orchestrate the overthrow of Mikhail Gorbachev, the reformist Soviet leader. That would bring to an end a fledgling democracy and a return to the Cold War days.

    “In return, Maxwell’s massive debts would be wiped out by a grateful Kryuchkov, who planned to replace Gorbachev. The KGB chief wanted Maxwell to use the Lady Ghislaine, named after Maxwell’s daughter, as a meeting place between the Russian plotters, Mossad chiefs and Israel’s top politicians.

    “The plan was for the Israelis to go to Washington and say that democracy could not work in Russia and that it was better to allow the country to return to a modified form of communism, which America could help to control.

    “In return, Kryuchkov would guarantee to free hundreds of thousands of Jews and dissidents in the Soviet republics.

    “Kryuchkov told Maxwell that he would be seen as a saviour of all those Jews. It was a proposal he could not refuse. But when he put it to his Mossad controllers they were horrified. They said Israel would have no part in such a madcap plan.

    “For the first time, Maxwell had failed to get his own way. He started to threaten and bluster. He then demanded that, for past services, he should receive immediately a quick fix of £400million to bale him out of his financial difficulties.

    “Instead of providing the money, a small group of Mossad officers set about planning his murder.”

    Sorry to post such a lengthy quote, it was only to isolate for you the relevant part of the page that I linked to. The PROMIS software mentioned is very interesting BTW, lots of very interesting information on all sorts of things comes your way if you look into that…

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  40. Reid (16,441 comments) says:

    This is also interesting, on the TPP. Corporate evil. I quite like that, I think I’ll start using that, as my own little propaganda meme whenever the TPP raises its unspeakably ugly head in our little land of the free and home of the long white cloud. Let’s hope my bank accounts aren’t stolen and the drones don’t start circling overhead.

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/04/05/296570/corporate-evil-creeps-up-unobserved/

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  41. cha (4,010 comments) says:

    Eaten any lately?.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-11/asian-seafood-raised-on-pig-feces-approved-for-u-s-consumers.html

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  42. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    niggly,naming rights,great idea.

    Let Ngai Tahu call the South Island “te Wai Ponomu” and charge them the hundreds of millions of taxpayers dollars that National gave them with a top up relativity clause for the privelige.

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  43. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Is there any case of an appointment to high government office 1999-2008, without more than one person interviewed for the job?

    If the answer is no, then the appointment of Fletcher after the phone call becomes exceptional.

    If that is the case, only a media covering up for the PM would ignore the story – that would mean a poor political culture.

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  44. Johnboy (16,484 comments) says:

    “Eaten any lately?.”

    I’ll stick to Bluff Oysters…. fed on the best effluent Tiwai point can discharge! :)

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  45. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    From the high ranking post of Paulus earlier:

    He has become a rather sad old man in his continued snide commentaries.

    LOL! Snap. He says after he’s spent two paragraphs of sour grapes against Clark. I’d also count continued ranting about a Government that hasn’t been office for 5 years as coming from a “rather sad old man”!

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  46. cha (4,010 comments) says:

    F-35 night time vertical hover and landing.

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  47. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    From Stuff –
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8517466/Danish-politician-slams-Maori-welcome

    Quote – “Marie Krarup, in an opinion piece in Danish newspaper Berlingske Tidende, was shocked to be welcomed by a dancing, barely-clothed man, instead of a handshake or salute.

    “When we came to a naval base, we were not received with a handshake or salute by uniformed men as usual,” she wrote.

    “No, we were welcomed with a Maori dance ritual, with a half-naked man in grass skirt, shouting and screaming in Maori.”

    Krarup, who was in New Zealand on a defence committee visit, said the man performed “strange rituals and poked his tongue out.”

    I can definitely understand the shock of an overseas visitor being confronted by that. I mean – if we MUST have a part of a welcome that is “Maori”, why not just have a Maori women’s group singing with poi?

    Surely that would be *much* more “welcoming” than the “in-your-face” treatment that we give visitors at the moment with the Maori challenge.

    Can anyone name *one* other country that has a similar intimidating welcoming ceremony for visitors? I can’t think of one.

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  48. Reid (16,441 comments) says:

    Can anyone name *one* other country that has a similar intimidating welcoming ceremony for visitors? I can’t think of one.

    Apparently when they lay down the adze the idea is if the visitors are intent on fighting the tribe they’ve come to visit, the moment they start charging is when the person from the homie tribe picks it up. So they used to send out the fastest runners to do the pickup, whenever one tribe visited another, in the olden days.

    Given that, it’s become quite civilised really, hasn’t it. Apparently the Victorians didn’t quite manage to convince the Maori that a nice cup of tea and a cucumber sandwich might be a better way to go, but they always were a bit stubborn, aren’t they.

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  49. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    It is not intimidating if you are briefed on protocol beforehand – as most visitors are. From the article, however, you forgot this:

    Krarup is a member of parliament for the Danish People’s Party, which is described as a very right-wing party by political commentators. It’s goals are to protect the freedom and cultural heritage of the Danish people, and limit immigration.

    Says it all. She probably was briefed but just continued with her rhetoric in a completely self-serving, deliberate denegration of another culture.

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  50. Johnboy (16,484 comments) says:

    There is hardly anything that makes me cringe more than watching some semi-obese, mostly naked brown fellow dancing about with a spear and flax frond in front of world dignitary’s that visit here.

    They used to wear togs under the flax but now I see that fat buttocks are in vogue.

    The chagrin that the poor folk must suffer from is nothing until the shame that hits them when the dreadful creature demonstrates his halitosis while rubbing his snotty nose on theirs.

    A disgusting rite that bears no relevance in the modern world we now live in! :)

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  51. Manolo (13,746 comments) says:

    There is nothing wrong with the primitive Stone Age greeting, isn’t there?

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  52. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Reid (13,362) Says:
    April 6th, 2013 at 6:53 pm
    ————————

    It may not be ceremonial, but the manner in which the US now greets its visitors at airports is more intimidating than any cultural ceremony.

    Many countries do not allow their indigenous people to conduct ceremonies, however, NZ actually makes a hell of a lot of tourist money from just such events.

    So one woman didn’t like it – tough – the thousands of tourists that do make up for her lack of tolerance. Perhaps she would have preferred some blonde haired blue eye child to present her with a posey of pansies?

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  53. OneTrack (3,088 comments) says:

    Lance -“So long as the country name of New Zealand remains un-fiddled with.”

    Good luck with that plan.

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  54. cha (4,010 comments) says:

    Charming.

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  55. Johnboy (16,484 comments) says:

    The really amazing thing about the naked dancing/halitosis nose rubbing is that more and more stupid Godzoners actually think that it enhances our status as a nation.

    I put that down to the imaginary status it is given by the imaginary teaching profession of this benighted little collection of islands of whatever name. :)

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  56. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Johnboy
    i watched the triathalon on tv today. (broadcast worldwide)

    How humiliating for New Zealand to see five or six fucking moronic idiots before the start sceaming and yelling
    and the commentator saying, “This is what we call the haka, it always causes us to have goose bumps.”

    Fukin cringeworthy.

    (when we see their outfit we realise why it is not maori etiquete to sit on the dinner table.)
    Wipe your arse Rangi.

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  57. Steve (North Shore) (4,560 comments) says:

    Teachers who speak Moari are special Johnboy, Teachers who can spell Moari are even more special

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  58. Johnboy (16,484 comments) says:

    Quite right Beryl old chap. It’s bad enough when the natives do it, but it is positively pathetic when the white pimpled folk get their kit off and dance about like fools! :)

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  59. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    One measure of the growing number of stupid Aotearoans is by how many have taken to wearing greenstone pendants as if that makes you more Aotearoan .

    Silly fashion.

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  60. Johnboy (16,484 comments) says:

    I bloody wish you would show respect to Te Reo and spell Murri popperly Steve(NS) :)

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  61. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/gh93ucies5cjcbx/romance-goats.jpg

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  62. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    You can bet that Steve(NS) is a schoolteacher.

    Now, how would i know that. ?

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  63. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    A Kiwi and an Aussie were sitting around talking one afternoon over a cold beer.

    After a while the Aussie says to the Kiwi, “If I was to sneak over to your house and made wild passionate love to your wife while you were off fishing, and she got pregnant and had a baby, would that make us related?”

    The Kiwi crooked his head sideways for a minute, scratched his head, and squinted his eyes thinking real hard about the question.
    Finally, he says, “Well, I don’t know about related, but it sure would make us even.”

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  64. Longknives (4,737 comments) says:

    “when we see their outfit we realise why it is not maori etiquete to sit on the dinner table.”

    Did Pre-European Maori actually have dinner-tables?

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  65. Johnboy (16,484 comments) says:

    Contact details for nasska and his goats are here:

    http://meat-goats.meetup.com/cities/nz/eketahuna/

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  66. Steve (North Shore) (4,560 comments) says:

    Oh ‘Moari’ spelling is like your fellas luggage

    Maori is correct. Please move to the next level. Do not pass ‘Go’ and do not collect $200.
    Go directly to Jail. There is no Just Visiting. There is no Community Chest or Chance. Railway Stations are demolished, so is Free Parking. Electric Company is owned by the Taxpayer only as is the Water Works.
    If you should land on Income Tax you will pay the same value as the rest of the net Taxpayers.

    OK, who is going to be the Bank?

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  67. Johnboy (16,484 comments) says:

    Honkey has always been the bank Steve(NS) ever since Murri appreciated the concept of hand-outs. :)

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  68. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    Johnboy

    It reminds me of that old Islamic saying…..a woman for work, a boy for pleasure but a goat for ecstasy. :)

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  69. Johnboy (16,484 comments) says:

    Decisions….. decisions. Should I stay here or go and surf the Europorn….????

    See yuh folks….! :)

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  70. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Steve (NS.)

    You just don’t have the wit to compete.
    Retire hurt now with whats left of your self respect.
    Don’t make an even bigger fool of yourself.

    How can a loser ever win ?

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  71. Johnboy (16,484 comments) says:

    “Did Pre-European Maori actually have dinner-tables?”

    Didn’t they need Europeans to put something on the dinner table since they had eaten all the handy Moa’s? :)

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  72. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Johnboy

    Give them a break.
    Poor old Longknives and( SteveNS)
    Both defenceless.
    So sad.
    It’s not fair, they just can’t compete.
    Poor sods.

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  73. Johnboy (16,484 comments) says:

    The Europorn is a bit boring tonight but I found a photo of a really sexy chick that I thought I should copy here just to cheer all you poor bastards up: :)

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/8518310/PMs-agree-Kiwis-did-not-die-in-vain

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  74. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    Imagine a video of that on Tube8 JB…..the net would crash. :)

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  75. Nostalgia-NZ (5,191 comments) says:

    ‘a woman for work, a boy for pleasure but a goat for ecstasy.’

    A pedo joke from nasska.

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  76. Johnboy (16,484 comments) says:

    What’s Tube8…?

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  77. Manolo (13,746 comments) says:

    Useful idiots: http://www.theimproper.com/58899/beyonce-jay-z-travel-cuba-u-s-lawmaker-protests/

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  78. Manolo (13,746 comments) says:

    Why would anyone visit that dangerous rat-hole? http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8638284/british-woman-stabbed-to-death-in-kashmir

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