Abortion and mental health

April 19th, 2013 at 11:00 am by David Farrar

Stuff reports:

New Zealand’s laws should be changed to reflect the real reasons women decide to terminate unwanted pregnancies, Christchurch researchers say.

New research from the University of Otago, Christchurch, suggests abortion does not reduce the mental health risks of unwanted pregnancy.

I’m not surprised. If you have an unwanted pregnancy, it is highly stressful to either have an abortion or to have an unplanned child.

The best outcome is to reduce unwanted pregnancies.

Currently, abortion can only be performed legally in New Zealand if there is a risk to the mother’s physical or mental health or if the baby would have a serious disability.

About 98 per cent of abortions are performed on mental health grounds.

Nominally.

Lead researcher David Fergusson told The Press the review did not suggest abortion should be completely illegal but that the current laws should be changed to reflect the real reasons women sought abortions.

“These issues could be addressed if the wording of the current law was changed from ‘continuation of the pregnancy would pose a serious threat to the woman’s health’ to something along the lines that ‘continuation of the pregnancy would pose a serious threat to the woman’s physical, mental, educational, family or financial wellbeing’,” he said.

I agree. The current law does not reflect the practice, and in this case I think the law should be changed to reflect the reality.

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78 Responses to “Abortion and mental health”

  1. berend (1,673 comments) says:

    Note that for every abortion there is a person doing the killing, and a team helping the killers.

    Voice for Life:

    A recurring problem for District Health Boards around New Zealand is retaining medical staff who are required to be involved in abortions. For example, the nurse above described how her colleagues “dreaded seeing their names on the roster for assisting with terminations.”

    They confided in her their anguish at having to handle the dead babies from second and third trimester abortions. A psychologist was brought in by the DHB to help the nurses. She ended up being shocked by the stories of trauma that she heard. Nothing further was done and the nurses were expected to simply get on with “service delivery”.

    In March 2003, the Auckland DHB reported to the Ministry of Health that clinical staff were reluctant to perform second-trimester abortions particularly for social reasons.

    In 2001, Christchurch Hospital reported that they were “losing competent and highly regarded nursing staff. The find they cannot cope with prostaglandin termination of pregnancies (PGTOPS), particularly when done for non-medical reasons.”

    There are subtle pressures on nurses in private and public hospitals to assist at abortions. Many find it deeply distressing, but feel obliged to take part due to the extra workload that will be imposed on their colleagues if they opt out.

    You can help your colleagues by informing them of their right of conscientious objection and the protection of the Law.

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  2. Nigel Kearney (915 comments) says:

    Doctors are going to keep giving abortions to any woman who wants one. I think we should either change the law to say that’s ok or start prosecuting doctors who authorize abortions where the criteria are not met. Otherwise it’s a joke.

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  3. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    The current law does not reflect the practice, and in this case I think the law should be changed to reflect the reality.

    Evidence of the liberal slippery slope working just fine.

    There is an increasing body of evidence that points to abortion increasing mental health issues.

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  4. kowtow (7,931 comments) says:

    I couldn’t put it better than Theodore Dalrymple.

    Subversion of the original intention of the act in a nation that has lost it’s character.

    Could get the new gay icon Maurice Williamson to come on and make fun of Catholics while we’re about it.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/women_shealth/9100838/Pregnant-women-have-asked-for-terminations-because-they-did-not-want-their-holidays-spoilt.html

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  5. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    It is the womans body and the womans fetus thingy. Abortions shoud be on demand and free.

    The last thing we need are more unwanted children.

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  6. Mark (1,427 comments) says:

    National are currently on a roll with the successful passing of the Marriage Amendment Bill, now they have the chance to strike while the iron is hot and bring in abortion on demand and take the social reform baton from the Labour party.

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  7. iMP (2,333 comments) says:

    This new research, alongwith the Kermitt Gosnell case in the US, may represent an emerging quantum shift in societal attitudes to abortion. We are well overdue for a relook at the 1977 Contraception, Sterilisation, and Abortion Act, to address the real mental health issues associated with abortion; to review adoption provisions (woefully inadequate); and better reflect law re abortion in the current climate.

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  8. edhunter (515 comments) says:

    And it’s started not 2 days after we’ve succumbed to the relentless brow beating and given in to gay marriage, they’re already lining up the next cab of the rank.
    What fucking difference does it make why a woman wants an abortion, with a such a difficult & stressful decision we should not be making them jump through hoops. It should be has stress free as possible.
    Next they’ll be saying to women involved have you considered adoption? There are plenty of couples out there who would love to have a baby.

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  9. Chuck Bird (4,759 comments) says:

    “It is the womans body and the womans fetus thingy. Abortions shoud be on demand and free.”

    @Kea

    So men should not have to pay child support according to you logic?

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  10. Tom Barker (132 comments) says:

    “National are currently on a roll with the successful passing of the Marriage Amendment Bill…”

    Are you serious? It wasn’t National’s Bill and almost half their MPs voted against it. And you think National can take credit for this?

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  11. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird (3,310) Says:

    April 19th, 2013 at 11:20 am
    “It is the womans body and the womans fetus thingy. Abortions shoud be on demand and free.”

    @Kea

    So men should not have to pay child support according to you logic?

    Correct (with some conditions) Your very sharp today Chucky.

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  12. RRM (9,638 comments) says:

    We would never abort one of our unborn babies.

    But I don’t think the state has the right to ban the practise.

    Although the kind of activity Kermit Gosnell is on trial for in Philadelphia is unquestionably murder and that should remain illegal.

    And old, white men who wank on about supposed callous nymphomaniacs whistling a happy tune as they skip off home from the abortion clinic need a kick in the dick…

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  13. Griff (6,989 comments) says:

    After yesterday successful introduction of compulsory anal sex for fundies we are now starting to implement the next steep in purging fundies from the population= Compulsory fundie abortion.

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  14. mandk (875 comments) says:

    Kea,
    Pre-born babies have rights, too.
    They are human.

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  15. graham (2,284 comments) says:

    Interesting. I wonder if all those people who were so passionate for the rights of homosexuals to be legally allowed to acquire a bit of paper, will be quite so passionate on the rights of an unborn child?

    And as for changing the law to allow abortions if ‘continuation of the pregnancy would pose a serious threat to the woman’s physical, mental, educational, family or financial wellbeing’. Really? Educational and financial wellbeing? That’s a good enough reason to abort an unborn child? I don’t think so. If you can’t afford the child, why not just adopt it out? Simple.

    I’ve said before, I don’t consider all abortions should be illegal. I recognise that in certain circumstances, such as rape, it’s simply not that easy to say the woman in question should just have to cope. In that sort of extreme situation, it’s not up to any of us to tell a woman what to do. But legalising abortions so that someone who couldn’t be bothered to use a condom can continue to live a fancy lifestyle is wrong.

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  16. mandk (875 comments) says:

    Edhunter: “Next they’ll be saying to women involved have you considered adoption? There are plenty of couples out there who would love to have a baby”
    Too bloody right they should.

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  17. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    mandk, no they are not human, any more than a wank stain is human. They are a blob of cells.

    Your just appealing to sentimentality and paternal instinct with that vacous argument.

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  18. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    mandk (111) Says:

    April 19th, 2013 at 11:30 am
    Edhunter: “Next they’ll be saying to women involved have you considered adoption? There are plenty of couples out there who would love to have a baby”
    Too bloody right they should.

    Yeah plenty of married gays would jump at the chance of adopting.

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  19. Ed Snack (1,794 comments) says:

    Weasel words David, weasel words. The criteria should be the honest “no reason other than that a termination is desired by the women concerned”. And why not extend it post birth for a nominal period, Kermit Gosnell could provide some advise on that.

    I’m sure you could manufacture a poll to show that 78% of people support abortion on demand at any time for any reason. The you can start an anti-religious thread or two, characterize any opponents as dinosaurs (a la Tom Scott in today’s Dom), imply that they’re anti-women misogynists and probably paedophiles for thinking about children at all (but not gay paedophiles as those apparently don’t exist as that would be insulting and wounding for gays to think about, paedophiles are the exclusive preserve of the catholic church, aren’t they ?); and hey, another successful social engineering campaign under way.

    You can join in with RRM and have tears in your eyes and sing Pokarekareana in parliament when it’s done too…

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  20. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “And why not extend it post birth for a nominal period”

    Good idea. Kids die for no apparent reason anyway at that age. Even god seems to be apathetic about their survival.

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  21. mandk (875 comments) says:

    Kea @11.30

    “If we need to remove an appendix or a tumor from our own personal spaces, then it’s nobody else’s goddamn business. I used to cringe when I heard this, not so much because in the moral sense fetuses aren’t to be compared to appendixes, let alone tumors, but because it is obvious nonsense from the biological and embryological points of view. Babies come from where they come from. The diagram of a vacuum-suction abortion in Our Bodies, Ourselves gave the female anatomy in some detail but showed only a void inside the uterus. This perhaps unintended concession to queasiness has since become more noticeable as a consequence of advances in embryology, and by the simple experience of the enhanced sonogram. Women who have gazed at the early heartbeat inside themselves now have some difficulty, shall we say, in ranking the experience with the planned excision of a polyp” (Christopher Hitchens)

    Pre-born babies are, without a shadow of a doubt, human.
    Your denial of this only reflects on your lack of humanity.

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  22. edhunter (515 comments) says:

    mandk I am adopted, my sister is adopted we love our parents & I’m grateful every day for being as loved as I was & am.
    But this is not about abortins on demand, this is not about mum & dad who are unable to have children, this is/was & will forever be about making abortions harder & putting pressure on the women involved to go full term so that Adam & Steve can fulfill their fantasy about playing happy families.

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  23. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    mandk , I am happy to appear as an unfeeling monster, for the purposes of exploring this issue further.

    At one point is the soup of cells a human ?

    I agree abortions are not pretty. I doubt many women under take the proceedure lightly. I think it is safe to assume that and the option to abort need not be regulated by the government.

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  24. cha (3,853 comments) says:

    This new research, alongwith the Kermitt Gosnell case in the US, may represent an emerging quantum shift in societal attitudes to abortion.

    Oh do fuck off. The Gosnell back street chop shop was an organised criminal enterprise that stepped up to the plate because your quantum fucking shift prohibited safe and legal services.

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  25. RRM (9,638 comments) says:

    but not gay paedophiles as those apparently don’t exist

    Idiot –

    There are heterosexual pedophiles too.
    Does that mean we ban straight marriage? Or straight adoption? Or abortion?

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  26. mandk (875 comments) says:

    From one of my posts yesterday:

    “Life now goes back to normal.
    Agreed – the country continues its slide into the cesspit of relativism”

    Perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised that the slide has resumed so quickly

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  27. Ed Snack (1,794 comments) says:

    Kea, you might want to have a look at a 26-28 week fetus at some point before opining that they’re just “a bundle of cells”. I have two nephews (twins) born at 23-24 weeks, and alive today (not without some early problems as that’s damn early) in their early 20′s. At 24-5 weeks on most fetus/babies are viable absent congenital issues and the potential hazards of a very early birth like undeveloped lungs etc.

    In my opinion, if we must have abortion, make it real easy up to, say 13-14 weeks (basically on demand with no reason but counseling as there are mental health effects both ways), a bit more qualification needed up to 24 (say) weeks, and then only a genuine acceptable medical reason after that. Genuine reasons could include mental issues as well as health of the mother, congenital defects, etc, but not the general “at whim” that occurs today. The reasoning is that early on it is “just a bundle of cells” and not independently viable in any way, but after 24-25 weeks it ceases to be a fetus and becomes essentially an unborn child, and if the abortion is via an induced birth (which it often is if the “thing” is large enough) the line between infanticide and a “legal” abortion is that the “thing” has not actually made it out of the birth canal before it is killed. The Gosnel trial is in part about this distinction, he was careless enough to take the easy route and cut the spine of delivered babies that were in some cases alive rather than do the more complex procedure of cutting the spine at the neck while the baby is on the way to being born but hasn’t left the birth canal. A very dodgy line to draw, IMHO.

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  28. mandk (875 comments) says:

    Kea @ 11.44
    Your grasp of embryology is as strong as your right to be considered in any way humane.
    At no point is an embryo a “soup of cells”.

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  29. berend (1,673 comments) says:

    cha: The Gosnell back street chop shop was an organised criminal enterprise

    No, it performed abortions, therefore no one dared to investigate the blood that dripped from under the door.

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  30. RRM (9,638 comments) says:

    Ed Snack – yes exactly, well said on all points.

    IMHO the only defensible reason for an abortion after 24 weeks is if it is effectively euthanasia – for a baby with incompatible-with-life deformities that will inevitably suffer an agonizing death at birth or soon after.

    Abortion of a healthy baby that is near enough to term that if it were born right then , could survive birth and be nursed along to viability by neonatal ICU is just a bit too much like homicide… even for this liberal lefty.

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  31. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Ed Snack, I agree with most of what you have said.

    mandk, you seem to be suggesting I am not “human” ?

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  32. TheContrarian (1,082 comments) says:

    “At no point is an embryo a “soup of cells””

    Yes it is – I have seen it.

    ‘Soup’ is probably the wrong word, more just a small piece of gooey tissue.

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  33. RRM (9,638 comments) says:

    Berend,

    No, it performed abortions, and Gosnell covered up what he was doing with enough of a paper trail that no-one thought to investigate what was really going on.

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  34. mandk (875 comments) says:

    No, I am not suggesting that you are not human – there is a difference between being human and being humane.
    But you may be a dimwit, if you cannot see it.

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  35. Lance (2,557 comments) says:

    @mandk
    Beware of feeding the troll

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  36. mandk (875 comments) says:

    @Lance,
    You’re probably right.
    I’ll look for an intelligent argument to engage with.

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  37. Ed Snack (1,794 comments) says:

    RRM, you seem a little humour deficient this morning, or don’t you like your own attitudes being parodied as you have so blithely doing to others ? Idiot indeed.

    I will, just for you, expand a little. You see this campaign for abortion on demand at any time up to 43 weeks needs to demonize its opposition, and I am suggesting that one tactic that should resonate is to imply that those claiming to oppose abortion must have an unhealthy interest in children; that is their reason for wanting more around, so they can prey upon them. Pretty standard tactic, personalize and demonize. However now that we have just legalized homosexual adoption their interest in children cannot be tarred with the same broad brush, hence it must be only heterosexual paedophilia that is targeted in this “hypothetical” campaign.

    You see, this is parody, I’m sure that a pro-abortion campaign would never stoop so low as use this tactic, why, that would be akin to labeling those opposed to homosexual marriage as, well, believers in imaginary sky fairies and secretly desiring homosexual intercourse to be thrust upon them. And that would never have passed the taste test as a tactic, would it ?

    Cha, complete and utter crap, Gosnell’s clinic was a legal, licensed operation subject to the state authorities various rules covering abortion. It operated completely openly for many years on a city street. That there was a complete lack of medical overview to ensure that he met the rules is just standard practice.

    Hey, this was in Philadelphia, it has everything that should make for wall to wall coverage. Gosnell is white, he treated black and coloured people in a dirty, inferior theatre and higher paying “white” people in a superior one. Unlicensed nurses and “medical” staff treated the coloured’s, Gosnell himself the whites; he kept bits of the aborted “objects” in plastic and glass containers throughout the clinic. Racism writ large, murdered babies (he’s charged with killing babies delivered alive), blood, re-used “disposal” instruments, patients catch STDs from the improperly sterilized equipment. This would feature as a page 1 exclusive to weeks, except that it might provide ammunition for those opposed to abortion, so ALL the major media refuse to even cover it. NY Times has had 2 stories, on in Jan mentioning his arrest, and a page 12 small story on it after being shamed in a “twitterburst” about it earlier this week.

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  38. scrubone (3,082 comments) says:

    mandk – yea, I’d repeat what Lance says and avoid tangling with Kea. The first time I ran into him, he turned my comment on sticking to the truth into a comment about himself being antisemitic (it was a discussion about the Nazis) and from there accused me of (as far as I could tell) being a communist and a supporter of genocide.

    Which makes his comments today that it should be legal to kill born human beings rather ironic.

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  39. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    mandk, you forgot to answer my question: At want point is the collection of cells “human” ?

    (You would not want to be accused of being a [gasp!] troll, by not engaging people on what they actually said.)

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  40. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “I’d repeat what Lance says and avoid tangling with Kea”

    Yeah I bet you do. I reveal your hypocricy and incoherent morality. You demonstrate your lack of intellect today by attacking the person, with nothing to say about the topic at hand.

    Anything you want to say about Abortion ?

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  41. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “At no point is an embryo a “soup of cells””

    Yes it is – I have seen it.

    That’s science !. Why do you hate god so much ?

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  42. RRM (9,638 comments) says:

    …this campaign for abortion on demand at any time up to 43 weeks…

    Go on… is that really what the discussion here in NZ is about?

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  43. kowtow (7,931 comments) says:

    And don’t forget people who oppose or criticise the butcher Gosnell are racists.

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  44. cha (3,853 comments) says:

    Gosnell is white,

    Actually, he’s not.

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  45. Griff (6,989 comments) says:

    Don’t get sucked into conspirowhackys RRM :lol:

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  46. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Those opposed to abortion are rarely informed by science. It is more likely to be religion. (surprising given how many babies god kills in the bible.)

    To support their views they draw extreme conclusions to discredit the pro choice lobby. I trust that few woman would take an abortion lightly. It is not for others to second guess their choice.

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  47. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Abortion on demand at anytime has been around in NZ for decades.. There has always been a two tier system of licensing of the clinics. Only the small clinics had restricted licenses. I used to work in this area..When I got pregnant as an older mother , I knew much more about the abortion scene in NZ than my G.P. NZ laws are made to be broken , bent , twisted…

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  48. Don the Kiwi (1,647 comments) says:

    Kea.
    You are an incoherent dribbler, who knows nothing about what you are going on about.

    Still, we don’t mind having our own blog clown troll – dim-witted and the IQ of a grasshopper.

    Just keep us amused with your inane, childish and uneducated remarks.

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  49. Aredhel777 (282 comments) says:

    I trust that few woman would take an abortion lightly. It is not for others to second guess their choice.

    On the contrary, the state should have an interest in protecting the rights and lives of its citizens for the proper flourishing of a nation, among other things. If I shoot someone in the head, that cannot be dismissed as my “choice”, rather the state should intervene and punish me where I violate the law. Whether the state should protect the rights of the unborn is therefore dependent on whether the unborn is human, which is a debate I am willing to have, yet you cannot bypass it with rhetoric about “rights” and “choice”.

    I truly believe that if people would just *think* about the arguments for abortion we would realise how immoral and abhorrent it really is. This was my experience as someone who was previously apathetic on the issue: I realised that I couldn’t coherently identify a point where the unborn “became human” apart from conception, and so after deep reflection I adopted a prolife position. I advise you to also give some thought to the issue and if you end up retaining your prochoice convictions, so be it, but I don’t think most people would.

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  50. muggins (3,268 comments) says:

    The way I see it that it is up to a woman to decide whether or not to have an abortion.. Their partner ,if they have one, should accept whatever decision they decide to make.
    However, I sometimes wonder what with the pill, condoms and the morning after pill why there are so many unwanted pregnancies. How many sex workers have unwanted pregnancies?

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  51. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Don the Kiwi (945) Says:
    April 19th, 2013 at 1:01 pm
    Kea.
    You are an incoherent dribbler, who knows nothing about what you are going on about.

    But clearly not so dim witted that you can actually think of a coherent response to my comments. :)

    Keep up the abuse. The more of it I get from your type the better I feel. If you start to agree with me I will have cause for concern.

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  52. Ed Snack (1,794 comments) says:

    RRM, 43 weeks,sorry, forgot the /sarcasm tag, you’re still a bit humour challenged today. Maybe abortion just isn’t enough of a laughing matter ?

    There are shades of opinion on abortion, but the basic abortion any time supporters, and there are many in that camp, support abortion at any time up to actual delivery. And if you haven’t delivered by 43 weeks you will be most definitely induced, actually it is normally triggered well before that at about 41-42 weeks. And, you may want to attempt to deny it, but there is certainly a reasonable faction in the pro-abortion camp who’s slogan is basically anytime before birth, the mother gets to choose and no one else has the right to interfere.

    Griff, STILL upset that your hero Lewandosky has been exposed as a serial confabulist and liar ? Projection much ?

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  53. Dennis Horne (2,200 comments) says:

    Forcing women to have babies they don’t want is to enslave them. It is preposterous men should have the power to do this. In an overcrowded world it’s madness.

    What Mankind needs is a comprehensive breeding programme. No zoo let alone farm could succeed the way we carry on. We have interfered with evolution and natural selection. We cannot go on breeding in this way, the people having the most children being state-dependent. Yes, eugenics, guys.

    Euthanasia next.

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  54. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Ed Snack, do you really think women would have those late term abortions if not for some compelling reason ?

    Maybe I just have a bit more faith in women, and human nature, than you do.

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  55. SGA (952 comments) says:

    Ed Snack (868) at 2:06 pm
    the basic abortion any time supporters, and there are many in that camp, support abortion at any time up to actual delivery…
    there is certainly a reasonable faction in the pro-abortion camp who’s slogan is basically anytime before birth, the mother gets to choose and no one else has the right to interfere.

    I’ve never found this “up until the time of delivery” a common position among the pro-choice women I know (in fact, I can’t remember any of them advocating it). Is there really that “many” advocating it? How do you know?

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  56. RRM (9,638 comments) says:

    Ed – yes, with humour as opaque as yours it is probaby best if you highlight all the jokes and explain the punchlines.

    I suspect you and I are on more or less the same page on abortion, but with all the crap it is hard to be sure…

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  57. Scott (1,736 comments) says:

    Well the report by Ferguson shows that there is an increased risk to mental health when a woman has an abortion. So making access to abortion easier is not going to solve the problem.

    “In general, these results are consistent with the view that exposure to abortion was associated with increased risks of mental health problems independently of confounding factors. The study estimates suggested that those who were not pregnant or
    those becoming pregnant but not having an abortion had overall rates of mental disorders that were between 58% and 67% of those becoming pregnant and having an abortion.

    http://200.16.86.38/uca/common/grupo54/files/new_zealand_abortion_study.pdf

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  58. Scott (1,736 comments) says:

    Also having promised us a break from gay marriage DPF the very next day moves straight on to abortion liberalisation.

    Apparently there is no rest for today’s liberal activist. And those of a Conservative or Christian disposition will never get a rest from them.

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  59. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    A published study on this subject:

    Does abortion reduce the mental health risks of unwanted or unintended pregnancy? A re-appraisal of the evidence

    Objective: There have been debates about the linkages between abortion and mental health. Few reviews have considered the extent to which abortion has therapeutic benefits that mitigate the mental health risks of abortion. The aim of this review was to conduct a re-appraisal of the evidence to examine the research hypothesis that abortion reduces rates of mental health problems in women having unwanted or unintended pregnancy.

    Methods: Analysis of recent reviews (Coleman, 2011; National Collaborating Centre for Mental Health, 2011) identified eight publications reporting 14 adjusted odds ratios (AORs) spanning five outcome domains: anxiety; depression; alcohol misuse; illicit drug use/misuse; and suicidal behaviour. For each outcome, pooled AORs were estimated using a random-effects model.

    Results: There was consistent evidence to show that abortion was not associated with a reduction in rates of mental health problems (p>0.75). Abortion was associated with small to moderate increases in risks of anxiety (AOR 1.28, 95% CI 0.97−1.70; p<0.08), alcohol misuse (AOR 2.34, 95% CI 1.05−5.21; p<0.05), illicit drug use/misuse (AOR 3.91, 95% CI 1.13−13.55; p<0.05), and suicidal behaviour (AOR 1.69, 95% CI 1.12−2.54; p<0.01).

    Conclusions: There is no available evidence to suggest that abortion has therapeutic effects in reducing the mental health risks of unwanted or unintended pregnancy. There is suggestive evidence that abortion may be associated with small to moderate increases in risks of some mental health problems.

    So are those who perform abortions putting their patients at risk of increased mental health issues?

    It looks that way.

    Edit: Scott, you beat me to it!

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  60. Lucy (32 comments) says:

    No way should the law be changed. Let sleeping dogs lay. There is no reason to open that can of worms. The law works fine as it is. Any women can get an abortion if they want one as it should be. End of story.

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  61. Ed Snack (1,794 comments) says:

    SGA, anyone who advocates that it is solely the women’s right to decide is de-facto supporting on demand at any time, including while in labour but before birth. Otherwise, they’d be supporting some restrictions on time would they not ?

    And no, “most” women wouldn’t want an abortion at 42 weeks or what ever (absent some gross deformity like anencephaly that wasn’t picked up earlier), but some certainly have them very late, the Gosnel trial if nothing else showed that.

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  62. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    krazykiwi , if you do not agree with abortion, then you are free not to have one. Same as your free not to marry someone of the same sex.

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  63. scrubone (3,082 comments) says:

    …and free not to own or be a slave.

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  64. Scott (1,736 comments) says:

    More on what really happens at abortion clinics-

    PA Abortion Clinic Worker: I Saw 10 Babies Breathe

    A former abortion clinic worker has capped the murder trial of her former boss with testimony that she saw more than 10 babies breathe before they were killed.

    Kareema Cross is the final prosecution witness against Dr. Kermit Gosnell. She says she saw the babies’ chests move but was told by Gosnell they were not breathing.

    She also says she saw three babies move their arms and legs and heard a fourth give a soft whine.

    Cross says she was so upset by clinic procedures that she took photos and called authorities.

    A 2011 grand jury report lambastes state and city officials for failing to inspect the busy Philadelphia clinic.

    http://www.newsmax.com/newswidget/Abortion-Clinic-Deaths

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  65. Griff (6,989 comments) says:

    Yeas EDif you read your sources you would think that the whole agw debate is a theory in crisis and Marocot et al and the Mann et al have been shot down by an amateur blogger. :lol:

    I actually agree with completely on demand first trimester ,Second trimester if the client complies with counseling and there is a threat or risks to the mother or baby and Third trimester only if major threat to the mother or the fetus is not viable

    The question over the rights of the father is one I have not resolved perhaps the debate on here may start to answer that conundrum for me.

    The right to young girls to abortion without the consent of their parents is an obvious with some knowledge of the real world. Some girls face violence up to and included death if family finds out they are pregnant.

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  66. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    …and free not to own or be a slave.

    No your not free to, not be a slave, if you follow the perfect word of god.

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  67. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    More on what really happens at abortion clinics-

    Scott, no that is not what typically happens at abortion clinics. The clue to that is the murder trial you quote from.

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  68. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    The right to young girls to abortion without the consent of their parents is an obvious with some knowledge of the real world. Some girls face violence up to and included death if family finds out they are pregnant.

    Sadly it can sometimes be “family” that put her in that position.

    Let us pray:

    (He got drunk and impregnated his virgin daughters.

    Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. Genesis 19:32-36
    )

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  69. Griff (6,989 comments) says:

    Sadly it can often be “family” that put her in that position.

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  70. SGA (952 comments) says:

    @Ed Snack

    SGA, anyone who advocates that it is solely the women’s right to decide is de-facto supporting on demand at any time, including while in labour but before birth.

    No

    Otherwise, they’d be supporting some restrictions on time would they not ?

    Yes – and the prochoice women *I know* would have no problem with that.

    So your “most” in earlier post don’t really exist, do they? They are straw “women”

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  71. mandk (875 comments) says:

    So, to paraphrase the story that launched this thread:
    “At the moment, abortion is generally justified on the grounds of mental health.
    But, rather inconveniently, the medical evidence indicates that abortion tends to harm mental health. Bugger.
    What shall we do about it? I know, let’s blur the issue by making abortion justifiable on virtually any grounds.”

    And the upshot is that abortion happens more often because it is easier. More pre-born babies are killed. And more women suffer from mental health problems.

    What a wonderful contribution this would make to the rights and welfare of human kind.

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  72. Griff (6,989 comments) says:

    pre-born babies are killed.

    No they dont start to die until they are born.

    That is why we like to refer all life as pre dead

    So yes all predead baby’s die some actually do so before they are pre born.

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  73. Alan Wilkinson (1,848 comments) says:

    I’m sceptical of Fergusson’s personal position on this issue. This is not the first time he has made this claim based on his research and last time I looked it was clear he had failed properly to eliminate confounding factors which are obviously serious. Those who choose not to have an abortion are most likely to have less difficult personal circumstances in all kinds of ways. I doubt he has succeeded in eliminating that factor.

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  74. Dennis Horne (2,200 comments) says:

    I don’t actually worry too much what other people do with their own babies or pregnancies. I may find it gruesome but then lots of things about life are gruesome. I would say people who kill their own babies need help, not permission or prosecution.

    As for the mental health aspect, there’s simply no way of knowing. The woman must make a choice she must live with either way, and neither way is the position she really wants to be in. I don’t see how statistics help the individual: “There’s a 10% chance you’ll feel worse for having the termination”. Who can make sense of that?

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  75. Dennis Horne (2,200 comments) says:

    @Griff. Quite so. It’s confusing using words. Would you like to try a cartoon?

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  76. mandk (875 comments) says:

    @ Alan Wilkinson,
    Just out of curiosity, are you qualified in applied statistics?

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  77. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    Oh what fucken bullshit!!

    No happily pregnant women gets an abortion – only depressed woman do!

    Of course it creates mental issues with women.

    Nearly all women who have abortions do so because they have been lazy around the issue of contraception – and that proves that women DON’T FUCKEN WANT TO BE IN CHARGE OF THEIR OWN BODIES !

    We’ve won this one! :cool:

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  78. Dennis Horne (2,200 comments) says:

    @Harryet. We all make mistakes because we are all deeply flawed, and if we didn’t have to pay for them they wouldn’t be mistakes, they’d be choices. Like, “Tea or coffee?” and “Ford or Holden?”. Oops, you do have to pay for coffee and cars; difficulty with words and concepts, eh… :)

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