The xenophobic nutters at work

April 28th, 2013 at 2:00 pm by David Farrar

racists

 

This was pushed into various letterboxes in Auckland this weekend.

The resistance are part of the small fringe neo-nazi movement that Kyle Chapman and others are involved in.

But they do not exist in a vacuum. When politicians rail against Chinese immigration, rather than all immigration, they add fuel to the fire.

When politicians condemn a Chinese company buying a NZ farm, but remain silent over companies from other countries doing the same, they give solace to these people.

No one with an IQ over 50 really thinks there will be a Chinese armed invasion of New Zealand. But it must be sad and somewhat distressing for Chinese New Zealanders to have to put up with this crap.

Tags: ,

114 Responses to “The xenophobic nutters at work”

  1. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    There is nothing ‘right wing’ about this mob at all. Take a look at their policies – they are a bunch of socialists who are also racist.

    And they claim to represent the workers too.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 23 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. dog_eat_dog (780 comments) says:

    Typically bullet points are used to summarise key points in your argument, except I can’t see any trace of an argument here. Scum.

    Vote: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. ZenTiger (435 comments) says:

    I don’t think China is a threat, but plastic sure is.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. ChardonnayGuy (1,206 comments) says:

    It’s long since past time that Christchurch’s civic authorities put their foot down hard on these heavily tattooed, multiple substance abusing, unemployable morons. They’ve been allowed to get away with attempted intimidation, vandalism, and other misdeeds for far too long.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. burt (8,269 comments) says:

    Winston getting ready for another election campaign ….

    Vote: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. Mark Thomson (81 comments) says:

    It also has to be said that TVNZ have shown a basic lack of competence on this. I didn’t see the TV report that your other post mentioned (I currently live in the US), but I read with interest this report on their website – http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/call-new-zealand-cut-ties-china-5419228. In that case the focus of the concerns being expressed by the Chapman group were about supposed human rights abuses. Yet the report made no attempt whatsoever to spell out what those abuses are or the substance of their allegations of ‘war crimes’ and ‘genocide’.

    So TVNZ are happy to report the fact that there are people who have controversial opinions, but they aren’t the least bit interested in examining what factual basis there might or might not be for those opinions – which might otherwise be a reason to argue that there could be some public good in taxpayers owning a ‘news’ organization. This is a prime example of why it pisses me off that NZ taxpayers are forced to support these clowns.

    Vote: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. Nostradamus (3,320 comments) says:

    Not that I particularly care, as I have no intention of contacting these nutters, but what is that 02040215229 supposed to be? A phone number? A “NZ Resistance” membership number?

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. MT_Tinman (3,183 comments) says:

    No one with an IQ over 50 really thinks there will be a Chinese armed invasion of New Zealand

    I agree so why publicize their utter crap?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. James Stephenson (2,171 comments) says:

    That’s a point of view, MT. Personally I think ridiculing these morons is the best approach.

    Anti-Chinese scaremongering is so 1860’s isn’t it?

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. Harriet (4,967 comments) says:

    That’s one thing I’ve never been able to work out about the neo-nazi types:

    They always put ‘all Jews and all Asians’ up as people to despise, but both lots are very good workers, educated and save.

    It’s the likes of islanders and uneducated asians and others from 2nd & 3rd world economies who are the drain on society.

    And statistics in Aus back that up:

    It takes something like 7 yrs before a Lebanese person is a net tax positive person. But that 7th yr is only the first year where they actually cost less in taxes than they contribute in taxes. The next several years of them paying tax is really just paying back what they’ve already cost taxpayers.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. Kea (12,777 comments) says:

    So they are “neo-nazis” really ? Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Workers’ Party). So according to David they are German socialists ? Or maybe he just said that to be dramatic and shame people who might agree with them.

    This in pretty mild stuff compared to the anti European hate speech we hear in the msm daily from maori.

    I see ChardonnayGuy thinks the “authorities” should deal to people whos views he disagrees with. I think people like ChardonnayGuy are the sort we need to watch out for, not a harmless group of white trash.

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    …When politicians condemn a Chinese company buying a NZ farm, but remain silent over mpanies from other countries doing the same, they give solace to these people…

    It wouldn’t be right to muzzle political debate because of Kyle Chapman, DPF.

    What if these politicians object because China doesn’t let foreigners buy its arable land, and they don’t think it’s then fair for China to buy NZ arable land?

    What if they object because the Chinese buyers come from the new Communist plutocracy – the Beijing billionaires – rather than from the general Chinese public?

    What it they they object particularly to China buying (and particularly in the Crafar case) because buyers from other countries typically bring expertise from their own dairy industries with them as they settle in NZ, whereas the Chinese being discussed are absentee investors? I’m aware of British, Dutch, Irish, and German farmers doing things like pioneering in the Mackenzie Country. I’m not aware of cutting-edge dairy farmers from China.

    What if they object because the Chinese buying hastens the transition from family farming in NZ to company farming, with economic dangers (family farms survive downturns better) as well as social ones?

    What if they object because the Crafar fiasco was caused by NZ banks pushing lending to the Crafars until they bust, and the sales to China lowered the losses to these bankers?

    What if they object because of the promotion of the Crafar sales to China by a Government department, which was eager to provide labour and expertise to the absentee land owners, who happened to be from China?

    The Chinese investors in NZ arable land have used expensive Auckland PRs to promote their interest, and some of the Chinese investors in NZ land have proved to be flakes.

    John Key was reported on the ZB Newstalk site on 8 April as having said to the Chinese leadership that NZ wanted Chinese investment – but not to buy NZ land. I haven’t read reports of him saying the same to the Dutch or the Irish or the British. Is he, too, giving solace to Chapman?

    Chapman and his fringe groups have been around for decades. They were survivalists for a time. They were making anti-Maori noises for a time, though Chapman is part-Maori. Then they looked to have disappeared when Chapman dabbled with Mormonism, or at least with a very respectable Mormon. Sadly the reformation crashed. Chapman’s groups have never gained much traction, though the latest’s web site indicates links with odd groups in Scandinavia and elsewhere.

    I agree Chapman’s groups could disturb Auckland Chinese who don’t know of how tiny the Chapman faction is, but there will be some (from Taiwan, or Falun Gong) who are suspicious about Beijing.

    As for the rest of us – we can talk about dairy-polluted fishing streams without being Melon Greens, so surely we can talk about sale of arable land to Chinese interests without fuelling support for Kyle Chapman.

    Vote: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. Kea (12,777 comments) says:

    Harriet, yes and I note Maori seem ok with being “colonised ” by pacific islanders and other non-white “colonisers”.

    The people pretending to be all offended by this poster are full of shit. We see way worse directed at Europeans and they say nothing.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. coge (190 comments) says:

    A socialist manifesto for white trash.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. Kea (12,777 comments) says:

    A socialist manifesto for white trash.

    Why not, it worked for Labour.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. Kea (12,777 comments) says:

    The Chinese make great immigrants. They work hard, they study hard, they rarely cause trouble and they make some of the best food in the world.

    Bring more in I say, to replace all the kiwis going to Aussie. If kiwis don’t like it here there are plenty of wealthy hard working Chinese who would love the chance.

    Vote: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Coge at 4.13 is right in that, from its web site, Chapman’s group is clearly anti-capitalist.

    But I’m unsure about the term “white trash”.

    Coge, would you be comfortable using the terms “brown trash” or “black trash” or “yellow trash” referring to certain ethnic groups? “White trash” is just as marginal.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. Grant Michael McKenna (1,159 comments) says:

    Hotmail?
    Who on earth still uses Hotmail?

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. Fletch (6,359 comments) says:

    Read a very good article the other day that said that Fascism (the Nazis etc) are not actually right wing at all.

    Fascism always has been, and always will be a left-wing ideology—period. That means that the Nazis, being a subset of Fascism, are left-wing as well. I cannot stress enough the importance of understanding this truth.

    I am not claiming that Communism and Fascism are the same thing—they are not. They are, however, variations on the same theme—the theme of collectivism. That is, they both promote Big Government at the expense of individual freedom. As such, they both belong on the left side of the political spectrum.

    The media has long promulgated the myth of a political spectrum that looks something like this:
    Far-Left (Communists)—————-Moderates—————Far-Right (Fascists).

    What is wrong with that picture? What is wrong with it is that the true political spectrum looks like this: At the far left of the political spectrum we have collectivist ideologies such as Communism and Fascism, then moving to the right we find Socialism, then the Moderates. On the right side of the spectrum we move from the Moderates to Conservatives (who favor a Constitutional, or limited, form of government), and finally at the far right we find the true anarchists, who favor no government at all (not to be confused with faux-anarchists, who wish to tear down existing governments so that they can replace them with other forms of government).

    In short, the political spectrum moves from Big Government on the far left, to no government on the far right, with the size and influence of government decreasing as one moves to the right, and vice versa. Fascism belongs squarely on the left side of the spectrum.

    http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/54772

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. cha (4,008 comments) says:

    the theme of collectivism.

    Yeah, they showed how collective they were when they indulged in reprivatisierung.

    http://www.ub.edu/graap/EHR.pdf

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    said that Fascism (the Nazis etc) are not actually right wing at all.

    That is what I have always maintained.  The reason why communism and fascism are such rivals is not because they are polar opposites; they aren’t.  Stalin understood this, but the Post World War 2 use of the word ‘fascist’ by the left to describe anybody opposed to them has undermined the true meaning of the ideology.  Capitalism is the polar opposite of communism  Fascism and Communism are rivals because they are diversified versions of the same thing, both fighting to gain the same supporters. 

    Of course, the left hate the idea that they are fighting a battle that the National Socialists would have supported, hence their rabid reaction to the suggestion that they and the Nazis share a common cause.

    That doesn’t explain why most of the British National Party support is taken from disaffected UK Labour voters, and why this so called ‘Resistance Party’ looks suspiciously left wing!

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    cha,

    the fascists respected private property rights so long as it suited them. That was one of the major differences between them and the communists. The goal was still the same: an anti-capitalist command economy for the benefit of the workers. And if you look at their organisations, collectivism figures strongly in it.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    I’ve also always thought anarchism is the opposite of communism/fascism.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    labrator,

    anarchists just don’t know what they stand for. Today they are simply left wing thugs who like the name.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. cha (4,008 comments) says:

    They were hell bent on looting public assets, reprivatisierung.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. andyscrase (89 comments) says:

    “The Socialist Roots of Naziism”, Chapter 12 of FA Hayek’s The Road to Serfdom
    Also, Jonah Goldberg’s “Liberal Fascism” covers similar ground.

    However, I wouldn’t credit these guys with any insight into their political ideology, other than hate and xenophobia

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. Manolo (13,735 comments) says:

    White trash, unadulterated white trash.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. gump (1,647 comments) says:

    The Nazi party certainly grew out of the socialist movement.

    But it grew into something that was unique and terrible. I don’t think it fits into the traditional political spectrum because it managed to combine elements from both ideologies.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. Bob R (1,370 comments) says:

    This almost seems like a false flag operation to dismiss normal concerns about cultural & societal change by way of large scale demographic changes. Pew research suggests that is a fairly common concern – in fact the majority of people in nearly every developed and developing country surveyed would like less immigration.

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2007/10/04/world-publics-welcome-global-trade-but-not-immigration/

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. Bob R (1,370 comments) says:

    *** The Chinese make great immigrants. They work hard, they study hard, they rarely cause trouble and they make some of the best food in the world. ***

    @ Kea,

    That is generally true. The research on diversity by Harvard’s Robert Putman suggests it reduces social capital, civic participation and trust. However, this can be ameliorated to some extent by selecting for smart migrants* – which the Chinese tend to be.** They also tend to have relatively low crime rates. As Jason Richwine notes:

    “Skill selection is a desirable way of addressing the problem of ethnic diversity because it is already a policy option on the table. More intelligent (or educated) immigrants would be more productive workers, and they would also have a much less objectionable social impact on the United States due to their enhanced ability to cooperate. Putnam’s concerns about deteriorating social capital form another argument for immigrant skill selection.”

    * http://www.american.com/archive/2009/august/dealing-with-diversity-the-smart-way

    ** http://evoandproud.blogspot.co.nz/2011/02/east-asian-intelligence.html

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Fascism always has been, and always will be a left-wing ideology.

    Absolute nonsense. Try someone who knows what they are talking about, like Robert Paxton.

    “Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.

    Anyone who claims that fascism is a left wing movement is a bona fide idiot. It has a completely different etiology and completely different aims.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 7 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    But it grew into something that was unique and terrible.

    Not really unique.  Many of their policies had their root in pre-WW1 Viennese politics, including the anti-capitalism and anti-semitism.  As far as the Nazis were concerned, they remained socialists.  

    On top of that, the Soviet regime had slave labour camps, which developed into the Gulag regime, from shortly after the revolution.  Certainly the Nazi regime was little worse than the Soviet regime of the same time period, it just didn’t last as long and was on the winning side of WW2, so has more apologists.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    Anyone who claims that fascism is a left wing movement is a bona fide idiot

    Well, there goes Professor Hayek’s reputation!  Oddly enough, Hitler also claimed to be a socialist, and Sir Oswald Mosely remained a member of the Fabian Society throughout his BUF period.  But what would they know, right?

    Actually, you are completely wrong, but it is fun to watch the reaction.

     

    Vote: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. Paul Marsden (998 comments) says:

    Though I abhor their motives and tatics, having spent some time in China previously , there is some truth in their message that China’s intent is to become the “centre of the universe” as it was, some 2000 odd years ago. In fact, it is China’s primary goal.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    anarchists just don’t know what they stand for. Today they are simply left wing thugs who like the name.

    @F E Smith: Yes the May Day riots in the UK are an example of this, just an excuse to be thugs. To me true anarchism is akin to complete independence.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    well Paul, if that is what they want to be, there aint a damn thing 4.4 million of us can do about it…

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. Bob R (1,370 comments) says:

    These guys should look at some of the positives from NZ adopting more Chinese policy views:

    – Stronger approach to crime and criminal justice (Kim Workman should be concerned)

    – Less tolerance of those on welfare recklessly reproducing

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    so has more apologists

    What I meant to say, of course, is that the Soviets have more apologists.  Like our friend Comrade Yoza…

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. Paul Marsden (998 comments) says:

    “well Paul, if that is what they want to be, there aint a damn thing 4.4 million of us can do about it”

    Go to the top of the class, David.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    these clowns are hilarious.

    scared to think what their vision of NZ is.

    i guess.. everyones white, everyone has a highly unionised job? welfare for all? no hard work required?

    kind of a mix of greens and winston.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson 7:44 pm “Anyone who claims that fascism is a left wing movement is a bona fide idiot.”

    Unfortunately, Tom, you are pointing out the obvious on a site full of bona fide idiots who think the scientific consensus on anthropogenc global warming is some kind of socialist plot.

    I’ve recently read in one of the threads a comment from the ultimate crazy, Rebaiter, that the very term racism is actually a left-wing construct, no doubt he will be along soon to deride all those here calling these clowns racists as socialists.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 8 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    oh shit. it turns out these guys are right wing.

    check out their policies:

    Create a better tax system that is not so demanding on the workers.
    Make better wage and standard of life for workers.
    Lower food and power prices.
    Cancel trade deals that destroy New Zealands manufacturing industry.
    Address poverty in New Zealand with a community focus and make health care more available.

    free market capitalists i tells ya!

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    F E Smith (2,469) Says:
    April 28th, 2013 at 8:02 pm

    “What I meant to say, of course, is that the Soviets have more apologists. Like our friend Comrade Yoza…”

    You cannot provide a link to any comment anywhere that I have been an apologist for the vicious totalitarian nature of the USSR. You, FE Smith, appear to be an habitual liar.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  44. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    everyones white, everyone has a highly unionised job? welfare for all? no hard work required?

    @dime,

    I think not. Else the garbage would pile up out of control in their left-wing, fascist paradise.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  45. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    F E Smith (2,469) Says:
    April 28th, 2013 at 7:51 pm

    ” Well, there goes Professor Hayek’s reputation!”

    As a prophet of the bona fide idiot movement internationally? No, if he thinks the Nazis were left-wing his reputation among the bona fide idiots of the world is safe.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  46. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    appear to be an habitual liar.

    Ohh, strong words, Comrade!!!!  Of course, to be correct in calling me an habitual liar you would need to show that I actually make a habit of lying.  That, Comrade, you cannot do, so it would appear that you have engaged either in hyperbole or in defamatory falsehoods. 

    I have been an apologist for the vicious totalitarian nature of the USSR

    Well, I may have been engaging in some hyperbole myself, but seeing as you appear to be an unreconstructed 1930s left wing nutjob, I figured that you and Uncle Joe’s regime would have some common ground.  After all, they were socialists like you!!!!

    Or do you just not like admitting to the logical end result of your political beliefs?

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  47. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    f e smith v yoza?

    no organisation in the world would sanction that fight!

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  48. hamnidaV2 (247 comments) says:

    Typical Right Wingers. Racist idiots.

    #Toryscum

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 7 You need to be logged in to vote
  49. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    @dime,

    I think perhaps Hamnida is Yoza’s intellectual sparring partner.

    It shows

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  50. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    what on earth is a tory?

    apart from these whack jobs, maori would be the biggest bunch of racists in this country

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  51. KevinH (1,227 comments) says:

    Actually I’m ok about Kyle Chapman and his Resistance movement getting some air time, it’s always great comedy watching him plus it’s even more hilarious reading the comments from his supporters here on KB. Kyle should make one of those kung fu movies, the Chinese spaghetti western ones called the Great White Panda and his Plonkers.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  52. Paul Marsden (998 comments) says:

    “apart from these whack jobs, maori would be the biggest bunch of racists in this country”

    Maori are not racists. They’re opportunitists, taking advantage of all that Pakeha has given to them.

    As in battle, weakness is our Achilles heel and Maori exploit it.

    More fool us.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  53. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Kevin H (9.04) labelst Kyle Chapman as “the Great White Panda”.

    Kevin, Chapman is part-Maori.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  54. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    dime (6,031) Says:
    April 28th, 2013 at 8:52 pm

    “f e smith v yoza?

    no organisation in the world would sanction that fight!”

    No, I doubt Smith would live through the first round.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  55. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    paul – they do both. they are racist against asians. white people. islanders.

    they are almost as racist as the greens. its hard to get more racist than them. those nutjobs hate themselves for being white.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  56. Kea (12,777 comments) says:

    The Socialist Workers party was …. socialist.

    Their policies were socialist and sound identical to what we hear from the Maori parties. Closing the gaps, allowing the average worker a part in running the country, protecting the land and culture of the indigenous peoples…

    Hitler was a choir boy compared to what went on in China and Russia. Stalin killed more people in a year in the Ukraine than the whole holocaust and had death camps way before Hitler even dreamed of them. Mao killed more than the entire death toll of WWII, all sides combined. Pol Pot and his green party back to nature organic farming regime killed about 25% of the population.

    Yet people like Yoza are ok with identifying as socialists, but get all precious about the German Socialist Workers Party. This shows how effective left wing brain washing has been. All those evil regimes had one common factor. They were socialists. History and current events clearly show that socialists are a much bigger threat to our society than a few skin heads. I am not aware of any country where millions have been murdered, tortured and oppressed by skin heads. However there are plenty of examples of people like Yoza doing that.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  57. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    well said Kea

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  58. pq (728 comments) says:

    beware, look after you country, do not take credence from Farrar propaganda, beware my friends

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  59. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    I’m curious, do Kea or that lying idiot F E Smith think Augusto Pinochet was a socialist?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  60. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    Hmmm The RWR say that I’m running the world surreptitiously and should not be allowed to live in NZ.

    Yoza says that I’m a figment of some invention, that I shouldn’t exist, and that I should not be able to live in a country of my choosing. And he supports people that say I’m running the world, that I should be put to death, and that I will get “wiped from the face of the earth Sands of time”

    Anybody else notice the similarity?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  61. Kea (12,777 comments) says:

    Yoza, did either I or F E Smith make that claim?

    I would say Augusto certainly had similar methods to socialist dictators, but only managed to kill a few thousand rather than tens of millions as you socialist have done.

    Here is some more on Pinochet:

    In 1973, the Chilean economy was deeply hurt for several reasons, including the expropriation of 600 businesses by the Marxist Allende government, a tiered exchange rate that distorted markets, protectionism, and the economic sanctions imposed by the Nixon administration,[39] inflation was 1000%, the country had no foreign reserves, and GDP was falling.[40] By mid-1975, the government set forth an economic policy of free-market reforms that attempted to stop inflation and collapse. Pinochet declared that he wanted “to make Chile not a nation of proletarians, but a nation of proprietors.”[41] To formulate the economic rescue, the government relied on the so-called Chicago Boys and a text called El ladrillo.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  62. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    Kea: “Pol Pot and his green party back to nature organic farming regime killed about 25% of the population.”

    Thatcher backed the Khmer Rouge with military support, the US has spent hundreds of millions backing the Ethiopean Marxist regimes invasion of Somalia. Calling totalitarian nutjobs ‘socialists’ is a pitiful propaganda ploy. The philosophy of Socialism is incompatible with the practice of totalitarianism. I’m guessing because the North Korean regime calls itself the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea then you bona fide idiots think North Korea is a bastion of democracy.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  63. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    that lying idiot

    Well now, we are sensitive, aren’t we?  A point I made to bereal a while ago is that you cannot really expect an answer when you are making such accusations without proof!!!!

    Or has my characterisation of you as an unreconstructed 1930s lefty nutjob struck too close to home?  Did I take you away from your reading of some fascinating tome by the Webbs?  So sorry…

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  64. Fletch (6,359 comments) says:

    Getting back to John Key and China…

    I think the problem for me with Key is that in his past work he was a money man, so sure, he is trying the best he can to do what is right for New Zealand’s economy in dealing with countries like China. The problem with that is that I do not think he takes into consideration at all the ideologies or dangers he is dealing with. His priority or concern is with economics rather than, say, if the country is Communist. I do not think he is cautious enough in that respect and, as far as he is concerned, why should he be? In our lifetimes we have never had to deal with world wars, or the cold war (at least not so that it directly affected Key and people of my age).

    These countries were typically our enemies in former times; not that I think that it reason not to deal with them, but I would be cautious before becoming beholden to them – although we already are in terms of debt – any more than we have to.

    I think it’s dangerous to be “climbing into bed” with these people.

    So again, Key’s expertise and past experience helps the country in a certain aspect, but I think he is lacking in the caution dept in his dealings as regards who we make our bed with.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  65. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    what on earth is a tory?

    It’s because Hamnidav2 can’t be bothered with all of the letters in Toy Story, so much easier to abbreviate.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  66. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    TimG_Oz (805) Says:
    April 28th, 2013 at 9:51 pm: “Yoza says that I’m a figment of some invention,…”

    No, I point out that Shlomo Sand has questioned the legitimacy of the claim that the majority of Jews living in Israel have any historical connection with the region:” …, Sand questions whether the Jewish People ever existed as a national group with a common origin in the Land of Israel/Palestine. He concludes that the Jews should be seen as a religious community comprising a mishmash of individuals and groups that had converted to the ancient monotheistic religion but do not have any historical right to establish an independent Jewish state in the Holy Land. In short, the Jewish People, according to Sand, are not really a “people” in the sense of having a common ethnic origin and national heritage. They certainly do not have a political claim over the territory that today constitutes Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, including Jerusalem.”

    “…that I shouldn’t exist, and that I should not be able to live in a country of my choosing. And he supports people that say I’m running the world, that I should be put to death, and that I will get “wiped from the face of the earth Sands of time”

    Complete bullshit, pricks like you and Smith couldn’t lie straight in bed. Try and back up any of this nonsense with a link to any comment I have made. You can’t, you are like FE Smith, you just make shit up.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  67. Kea (12,777 comments) says:

    The philosophy of Socialism is incompatible with the practice of totalitarianism

    Tell that to the people who survived; Mao’s China, Hitlers Germany, USSR, Romania, Cambodia, Cuba, GDR…

    What an idiotic thing to say. The most oppressive and murderous regimes in modern history have all been socialist totalitarian states. In fact there have been no socialist states that were not totalitarian. What you attempt to defend here on KB is far worse than anything Kyle Chapman has in mind.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  68. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    If it’s complete bullshit, then please detail any time where you have criticised violence perpertrated by Hamas. Show me one place where you have stated that their charter, which calls for destruction of Jews should be changed. Where Iran, where Jews are denied entry to University or Government positions, and get taken from the streets and tortured by the secret police, shouldn’t desire for freedom.

    Maybe show me one place where you state there should be peace without violence.

    You can’t – at best you just deny reality. You are just as bad as the RWR.

    You are full of shit. You are so dumb that you can’t see how your moronic logic is being played by those who you give power to.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  69. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    Socialism is incompatible with the practice of totalitarianism.

    That has to be the funniest thing I have read in a very long time!!!!

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  70. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    “If it’s complete bullshit, then please detail any time where you have criticised violence perpertrated by Hamas.”

    Hamas are the product of a sadistic, racist colonial experiment, like the ANC in apartheid South Africa their relatively limited recourse to violence is a reaction the extraordinary violence they have been subjected to over decades. Hamas lack the military capability to destroy the state of Israel, so that part of their charter is little more than empty rhetoric; Israel, on the other hand, has destroyed the Palestinian state and subjected its people to decades of slaughter and political repression. The rhetoric of Hamas is insignificant in comparison with the actions of the Israeli state.

    As for Iran, why do I need to be critical of them? Iran is a perennial whipping boy of the western media establishment. Iran is a vicious religious theocracy, the byproduct of the more blood thirsty US backed regime of the Shah’s monarchy which overthrew the democratically elected government of Mohammad Mosaddegh in 1953.

    “Maybe show me one place where you state there should be peace without violence.”

    Not sure what you are talking about here.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  71. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    Fletch (4,233) Says:
    April 28th, 2013 at 10:04 pm
    Getting back to John Key and China… These countries were typically our enemies in former times;”

    You need to elaborate a little here Fletch. When was New Zealand at war with China, the closest I can think of is when New Zealand supported the UN/US defence of South Korea against the Chinese supported North.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  72. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    F E Smith (2,472) Says:
    April 28th, 2013 at 10:00 pm

    “A point I made to bereal a while ago is that you cannot really expect an answer when you are making such accusations without proof!!!!”

    F E Smith (2,469) Says:
    April 28th, 2013 at 8:02 pm

    “What I meant to say, of course, is that the Soviets have more apologists. Like our friend Comrade Yoza…”

    Where?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  73. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    Yoza, your monologue of hate against the Jewish hope of Israel is exactly the same as the monologue of hate of Mr Chapman.

    You can try to redefine Jews all you want, but that won’t change us.

    Thank you for proving my point. Dick.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  74. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    Yoza, your monologue of hate against the Jewish hope of Israel is exactly the same as the monologue of hate of Mr Chapman.

    Well, TimG, anti-semitism is, after all, a hallmark of the left wing.  Which is ironic, given how many Jews how active participants in the socialist movement through the years.

    Where?

    The other great thing that I just love about lefties is that they just don’t realise when they are being played!!!  Thanks, Yoza, you have made my night.  Now, wipe the spittle from your mouth and calm down a little. You can shout and curse all you like, but the fact is that you are wrong, Comrade, and you just don’t want to admit it.

    Oh, and having considered what I said before about your inane comment being funny: in hindsight, 100 million or so dead people in the 20th century as a result of your ideology makes your comment more sad than funny.

    EDIT: Just in case you are wondering, I really do think that you are an unreconstructed 1930s lefty, just the sort of person who was vociferous in support of Uncle Joe and the Soviets. The Webbs and Bernard Shaw are prime examples of that. I am sure that you would have happily joined them!

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  75. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    Actually, when you decipher Yoza’s rantings, you generally end up with the problem being rich men and the Jews.

    Why do I get the feeling that I have heard that before?

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  76. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    TimG_Oz (807) Says:
    April 28th, 2013 at 11:31 pm

    “Yoza, your monologue of hate against the Jewish hope of Israel is exactly the same as the monologue of hate of Mr Chapman.”

    Utter bollocks, my criticism of Israel is founded on the writings of the likes of Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Amira Hass, Gideon Levy, Uri Avnery, Ilan Pappe and our friend Shlomo Sand. All of whom happen to be Jewish.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  77. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    All of whom happen to be Jewish.

    Ah yes, Gideon Levy is actually patriotic Israeli, although left wing. So you tell me your diatribe about being wiped from the sands of time holds true with them? No, he will think you are a nutter.

    How many of the others are practicing Jews, even culturally? Oops. Big fat zero there. They have all removed themselves in one way or another.

    Like I said, you are trying to redefine Judaism, its culture and its practices for your own scary agenda. An agenda just like Kyle Chapman.

    Its something you know nothing about. Give me the name of any Jews or Jewish organisations that agree with you. Any that think that the Jewish state should not exist, as you do.

    Poor old Ahmadinejad – whipping boy of the West. Sender of arms to Hamas. Holocaust denier. Anti Semite, although possibly with Jewish heritage too!

    When Chapman’s crew vandalised the cemetary, they wrote “Fuck Israel”. Same as you!!

    Tell me, why don’t the Jews see any difference between your desire to wipe them out and Chapman’s. You actually don’t know, because its just based on these authors you’ve read. Authors which you only read when they support your preheld beliefs.

    So if its such utter bollocks, as you said, why don’t you have Jewish friends? Practicing Jewish friends??

    Mate, otherwise prove me wrong about you. Tell me that you support peace with Israel ending the occupation, in a two state solution. Show me your are open minded to both points of view, and not just a one-eyed xenophobe. You can’t. You want to end Israel, and its inhabitants as you have said. And you have no fucking idea…..

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  78. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    Yoza “I’m not a xenophobe … but I only read or listen to people who think exactly like I do”!

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  79. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Well, there goes Professor Hayek’s reputation! Oddly enough, Hitler also claimed to be a socialist, and Sir Oswald Mosely remained a member of the Fabian Society throughout his BUF period. But what would they know, right?

    Hayek’s reputation as a political theorist – excluding the usual gang of loonies – is effectively nil. His opinions on fascism, which he was in no way an expert on, are similarly worthless, unlike those of Professor Paxton, who is probably the world’s foremost expert on the topic.

    But that aside, you are wasting your time if you think that fascism and socialism are the same. The reason is that fascism is not really an ideology whereas socialism is. Hence, they can’t really be the same thing. Fascism is a form of authoritarian nationalism that arises under specific political conditions and is hard to pin down because it is explicitly anti-rationalist. The rabid nationalism and desire to restore a golden age and purge national humiliation are completely foreign to socialism, which is a forward looking ideology. As Paxton has shown, fascism has a peculiar aetiology which in no way equates to how any socialist societies have come into being.

    Fascism happens when a minority of citizens turn radical in response to a national humiliation. At that point, their ideology, if they have one, is a melange, which sometimes includes left wing ideas. At that point, they are just nutters like Chapman. When it gets bad is when the traditional rulers of a society find that they no longer command enough political clout on their own to hold off the left, and refuse to compromise with it. Their response is to ally with the radicals and use them as goons to beat down their opponents. The radicals usually jettison whatever left wing ideals they have, often purging their organisation of those who hold them, and the alliance between them and traditional authorities becomes extremely poisonous.

    That’s how fascism happened. It’s not a left wing movement because it only gains power when the conservative establishment allies with radicals in order to beat off a left wing challenge. Thus, it’s in no way a left wing movement. Left wing radicals don’t want to ally with traditional elites. They want to replace them or destroy them. Embracing fascism is those elites response. That’s not to say that revolutionary movements don’t go nuts (like the Khmer Rouge), but that is something quite distinct from fascism.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  80. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    F E Smith (2,474) Says:
    April 28th, 2013 at 11:49 pm
    “Actually, when you decipher Yoza’s rantings, you generally end up with the problem being rich men and the Jews.”

    Twice in one thread, this is why you are an habitual liar.

    First off I would never make apologies for Soviet atrocities, I am inclined to the philosophy of Libertarian Socialism (in the anarchist tradition). The anarchists were ruthlessly slaughtered by the Soviet dictatorship in Russia in the aftermath of the revolution there and the leadership of the anarchist resistance were wiped out by their communist ‘allies’ in collusion with the social democrats and the UK during the Spanish revolution which ultimately led to the collapse of the resistance and the ultimate installation of the Franco regime, but I’m guessing you nut jobs think Franco was also a socialist.

    Secondly, you will not be able to provide a link to anywhere I have blamed any problems on Jews because I never have. I can distinguish the atrocities of the state of Israel from the people identifying as Jews. Conflating Israeli atrocities with Jewishness, as Israel’s apologists are prone to do, is the most egregious promotion of anti-Jewish propaganda that exists. Norman Finkelstein, the child of Holocaust survivors, in his book The Holocaust Industry, vehemently damns such a tactic.

    You are a liar and a fool, FE Smith, as you so clearly have demonstrated in this thread. Thank you for that, by the way.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  81. Kea (12,777 comments) says:

    “Give me the name of any Jews or Jewish organisations that agree with you. ”

    You should have done your homework. You may want to read Karen Armstrong’s book on Jerusalem. I was surprised to learn that many orthodox Jews were opposed to a Jewish homeland as they claimed it was against the teachings.

    I think you will find these chaps suitably Jewish.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  82. Kea (12,777 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson, right wing beliefs are not fascism either. A fundamental belief of the right is less government regulation in our lives. Just as a fundamental belief of the left is more government control, a comfortable fit with fascism. Your argument is based on the ideology not the execution of socialism.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  83. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    Actually (and unfortunately), I know Neturei Karta quite well. They are a group that numbers about 5000 worldwide.
    They believe that Israel can only be created by the Messiah.
    They are quite happy to side with murderers to get their point across. Nice, huh.
    The vast majority of Jews don’t agree with this sect.
    Do you know any Neturei Karta people in New Zealand or Australia? Name one.

    Sorry, this does not change my assertion that Yoza is a xenophobe, the same as Kyle Chapman

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  84. Kea (12,777 comments) says:

    TimG_Oz, well we agree on Yoza. He is a zealot.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  85. Redbaiter (8,787 comments) says:

    Yoza’s claim to believe in an idiotic convoluted concept like “Libertarian Socialism” is a clear indicator that he is a typical left wing narcissist whose only real intent in any political discussion is to garner attention. Take my advice and don’t waste your time with this slimy truth twisting commie and his revisionist bullshit. It’s really just all about Yoza.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  86. Redbaiter (8,787 comments) says:

    There are plenty of people with far more intelligence and far more knowledge of global affairs than these losers who have concerns about Communist China’s global expansion plans.

    Trying to sideline critics of John Keys pathetic need to cosy up to totalitarian Communist Generals by associating those critics with this lot is a pretty cheap trick in my humble opinion.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  87. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    Kea (3,783) Says:
    April 29th, 2013 at 7:01 am

    ‘Tom Jackson, right wing beliefs are not fascism either.A fundamental belief of the right is less government regulation in our lives.”

    Oh, Kea. you forgot to add this bit: Historically backed up by a vicious secretive security apparatus supported by paramilitary death squads. Disappearing critics of the government whose tortured bodies are found dumped in ditches or washing up on the beaches. A deep suspicion of human rights groups like Amnesty International and the Red Cross. Financial and logistical support from the US government. A secret police operation integrated into the CIA. Lots of Generals and Colonels with lots of medals wearing jodhpurs. A sympathetic Western media establishment (see Noam Chomsky and Edward S. Herman’s case study Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media.

    Oh, and some minority ethnic group, usually immigrant, to scapegoat when the economy ultimately collapses.

    I hope I haven’t missed anything.

    Or, perhaps Kea, in her infinite wisdom, could provide an example of such a ‘free-market’ state that does not conform to the model I have just described.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 7 You need to be logged in to vote
  88. Kea (12,777 comments) says:

    Oh, Kea. you forgot to add this bit: Historically backed up by a vicious secretive security apparatus supported by paramilitary death squads.

    Like the KGB, Stasi etc ?

    So you reckon NZ, Australia, Switzerland and other capitalist countries have ” vicious secretive security apparatus supported by paramilitary death squads”. Your an idiot.

    You come on here defending the most cruel and murderous ideologies in modern history and try and sell your self as someone who cares. You deserve utter contempt. There are still people today dying in their thousands in socialist hell holes.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  89. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    “Your an idiot.” Your funny (intentional misspell).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  90. ChardonnayGuy (1,206 comments) says:

    Except that China isn’t communist anymore, it’s neo-Confucian as a default ideology. Still authoritarian, still centralised, but placing a premium on conservative social and cultural values to a certain extent, such as obedience to rulers, hard work and educational achievement. Could those who blithely dismiss our largest trading partner as ‘communist’ please actually read contemporary literature about modern Chinese history, society and economics? Mao Tse-Tung is nothing more than a branded icon these days.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  91. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson, right wing beliefs are not fascism either. A fundamental belief of the right is less government regulation in our lives.

    Perhaps you should read what I said again. You are wrong on two counts. First, fascism is not really a matter of beliefs, because it’s not really an ideology. Its ideal core is very thin: a palingenetic nationalist authoritarianism. Fascism is something that happens in a country more than it is a set of ideas. To call a theory “fascist” is like calling a bed “wrong”. It’s a category error.

    Secondly, to assert that fascism is a right wing phenomenon is not to say that it’s the only one. Most right wing political movements are not fascist. For example, the National Party is certainly not fascist. Nevertheless, fascism arises from traditional right wing elites allying with radicals in order to defend their position against the left. While it might not fit your view of being ideologically right wing (which is a narrow view, IMHO), fascism is politically right wing.

    None of this means that left wing movements cannot fall into some kind of revolutionary authoritarianism. They can, and obviously have done. But whatever we want to call that, it isn’t fascism. To say it shares features with fascism is otiose. Virtually every political ideology shares something in common with the policies of fascist governments.

    Perhaps it would be easier to see what fascism is with a NZ example.

    Imagine it’s 2017 and the economic crisis has worsened. Businesses are failing, and NZers are streaming home from Australia, because the mining boom has collapsed due to Chinese economic weakness. There are a lot of angry middle class people who have worked hard for nothing and are looking for someone to blame. The easiest targets are Muslims and Chinese immigrants (some cockamamie economic theory is used to “prove” that the latter undermined the NZ economy). Movements like Chapman’s become more popular on this account and moderate their message (essentially promising a return to the certainties of the Holyoake era). Radical churches like Destiny increase in popularity for much the same reason.

    Normally this wouldn’t matter, but the National Party can no longer command more than 25% of the vote, since many of their supporters have decamped to anti-immigrant parties. John Key and David Shearer are long gone, and Judith Collins is an extremely weak Prime Minister who gets regularly taken to the cleaners by the Labour leader, David Cunliffe.

    Cunliffe’s election manifesto involves bringing the private sector under heavy regulation and some renationalisations in order to supposedly end the economic malaise. Basically, a complete repudiation of neoliberalism and mass weakening of traditional NZ economic elites (like farmers). Cunliffe is popular and articulate, and will win that year’s election at a canter due to the weakness of National.

    NZ’s economic elites face a choice. Either they let Cunliffe radically degrade their position in society, or they form an alliance with the far right, anti-immigrant, religious right and start derping it up about immigrants, gays and Muslims being responsible for NZ’s malaise, and look the other way when violent gangs of disaffected youths start threatening “enemies of NZ” in the streets (in much the same way that Golden Dawn operates freely in today’s Greece).

    If that happens, that’s the crucial step on the road to fascism.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  92. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    Yoza,

    you are the gift that keeps on giving.  Like most lefties, you are easily tweaked and get upset when the historical truth that all forms of socialism, including anarchism, becomes murderous whenever it can.

    Twice in one thread, this is why you are an habitual liar.

    No, even twice does not make a habit.  Try to be a bit more accurate with your words.  Moreover, try not to claim that somebody with a different opinion to you is telling lies.  I know that it is also a fallback of the left, to denigrate their opponents as being dishonest and evil, but it is childish and moronic to do so.  I have read what you write on this blog.  I hold the opinion that you are, as I noted last night, an unreconstructed 1930s socialist fo the Webb/Bernard Shaw type.  Therefore, when I mock you I use, and will continue to use, the Uncle Joe/Communist apologist stereotype that arises from that time period.

    Your response has been even better than I could have hoped for, though.  I am left thinking “methinks he doth protest too much”!!! Indeed, calling yourself an anarchist makes it even worse:  anarchism has a ton of blood on its hands, from the middle of the 19th century onwards.  It really just tends to prove my point, even though I was merely intending to mock you with it.  I know why you kick and scream about not supporting the Soviets, but you do so with hindsight and knowing that doing so will immediately devalue anything you say.  Well, Yoza, you need to understand that we have seen through you and nothing that you say has any value anyway.

    Oh, and when you speak about Israel in the way that you do, and when you show support (or at least tolerance) for murderous organisations such as Hamas, I do form the opinion that you are anti-semitic. It is the current fashion for the left to describe themselves as being ‘anti-israel’ rather than ‘anti-semitic’, but that is just semantics.  Anti-semitism pervades the left like a noxious disease, and just because you use the current ‘code words’ to try to hide it, you don’t fool us.

    But you keep the tantrum up now, it is hugely entertaining!

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  93. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    fascism is not really a matter of beliefs, because it’s not really an ideology

    Bollocks.  It grew out of the Italian socialist revolutionary movement, and had some very clear ideology back in the day.  

    But you keep trying to tell everyone different.  You will still be wrong.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  94. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    the National Party can no longer command more than 25% of the vote, since many of their supporters have decamped to anti-immigrant parties

    Again, this is bollocks.  Most of the support for anti-immigrant parties comes from the people disaffected with the various Labour Parties.  The BNP is a classic example.

    Note that I didn’t say all, just most.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  95. Sam Buchanan (501 comments) says:

    “Anyone who claims that fascism is a left wing movement is a bona fide idiot. ”

    Dunno about that, but anyone who claims that there’s anything to be gained by debating where fascism fits in to a simplistic left-right spectrum is an idiot.

    It’s a bit like getting all worked up over whether a croissant is a bread or a pastry.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  96. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Bollocks. It grew out of the Italian socialist revolutionary movement, and had some very clear ideology back in the day.

    And it has been patiently explained why that does not make it a left wing movement, and why its not really an ideology. But what would all those educated people who actually study historical fascism know? Why shouldn’t they listen to the senile rantings of someone dumb enough to fall for Jonah Goldberg’s rubbish.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  97. Kea (12,777 comments) says:

    Well fascists are a bit of a political novelty and have never been the problem socialists, like the Nazis, have been.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  98. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    to fall for Jonah Goldberg’s rubbish.

    Well, I prefer to base my ideas on Hayek and Popper rather than your group of revisionist lefties.  Plus, there are a lot more than just Goldberg who agree that the fascists were and are left wing.  Just becuase you don’t like it doesnt’t change the truth.

    Anyway, anybody who relies on Chomsky is just plain nuts, in my opinion.  He is one of the most biased left wing thinkers in recent history, so of course you would prefer him to people who actually observed the subjects in action.

    Which is a long way of saying that you are still wrong.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  99. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    Most of what you do is name calling, FE Smith, so there is nothing for me to reply to there, I provided a couple of examples of some quite pathetic fabrications and find your attempt to equivocate around them just as pathetic. If you are going to accuse someone of either being an apologist for the excesses of the Soviet Union or being anti-Jewish the the least you could do is provide proof such an event occurred, you could not because it did not happen.

    I called you a liar because you were caught out making up crap. I called you a fool because once you were caught out you just kept digging deeper.

    FE Smith “It is the current fashion for the left to describe themselves as being ‘anti-israel’ rather than ‘anti-semitic’, but that is just semantics.”

    The reason nobody really calls critics of Israel anti-semtic anymore as the Palestinians are a semtic race, which makes that form of name calling ludicrous.

    FE Smith:“Anyway, anybody who relies on Chomsky is just plain nuts, in my opinion. He is one of the most biased left wing thinkers in recent history, so of course you would prefer him to people who actually observed the subjects in action.”

    More name calling. God you are boring. The Chicago Tribune points out; “But a survey of a standard reference work, the Arts & Humanities Citation Index, found that over the last dozen years Chomsky was the most often cited living author. Among intellectual luminaries of all eras, Chomsky placed eighth, just behind Plato and Sigmund Freud.” On the one hand we have Chomsky “…the most often cited living author.” and on the other FE Smith (a lying fool), your opinion of Chomsky is less than meaningless.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  100. Kea (12,777 comments) says:

    Here are some more of your socialist mates Yoza. These comrades were not so keen on the Muslims !

    The Srebrenica massacre, also known as the Srebrenica genocide,refers to the July 1995 killing, during the Bosnian War, of more than 8,000[1] Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims), mainly men and boys, in and around the town of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina, by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) under the command of General Ratko Mladić. The mass murder was described by the Secretary-General of the United Nations as the worst crime on European soil since the Second World War.

    Ratko Mladić, of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

    Slobodan Milošević, of the Socialist Republic of Serbia

    You may want to have look at this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oODjsdLoSYo

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  101. Kea (12,777 comments) says:

    the excesses of the Soviet Union …

    So when a socialist regime kills tens of millions, invades countries all over Europe and Central Asia and establishes an oppressive totalitarian state inflicting misery, poverty and fear…. you call it “excessive”. What a wanker.

    And your mate Chomsky is a pompous pretentious old fool.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  102. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    Incredible, in the space of less than fifty words you have demonstrated you have absolutely no comprehension of the meaning of the words ‘excessive’, ‘pretentious’ or ‘pompous’.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  103. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    Yoza,

    Please don’t stop, I get a laugh every time you write something here!

    The reason nobody really calls critics of Israel anti-semtic (sic) anymore as the Palestinians are a semtic (sic) race, which makes that form of name calling ludicrous.

    You know, Luc Hansen has tried that very same argument here on KB, like you in order to absolve his own prejudices.  Didn’t work then, doesn’t work now:

    Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews for reasons connected to their Jewish heritage. A person who holds such positions is called an “antisemite”.

    While the term’s etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass (“Jew-hatred”), and that has been its normal use since then. For the purposes of a 2005 U.S. governmental report, antisemitism was considered “hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity.”

     And now to bed I go…

     

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  104. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    Yes, only the ardent European Zionists colonising Palestine are allowed the ‘honour’ of being victims of the term anti-Semite. Palestinians who are Semitic and suffer mass slaughter, humiliation and dispossession are not considered a high enough life form for such an ‘honour’.

    The destruction of the Palestinian people is the greatest act of anti-Semitism being perpetuated in the world today. Hiding behind the memory of the victims of the Holocaust does not make Israeli crimes any less abhorrent.

    Noam Chomsky: “It is a poor tribute to the memories of the victims of the Holocaust to adopt the central doctrine of their murderers.”

    Calling critics of Israel anti-Semites or anti-Jewish does not legitimise Israeli atrocities, it is little more than a device used in the attempt to deflect attention from those crimes.

    You have absolutely nothing, …again.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  105. ChardonnayGuy (1,206 comments) says:

    Could I just say that one of the problems I have with anti-zionism is precisely that in some cases, it is a cloak for facile and unreconstructed anti-Semitism? Some Arab opponents of Israeli foreign policy and military actions have circulated the notorious Tsarist forgery “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” within their countries. Added to which, as a gay man, I cannot forget that Israel is still the only Middle Eastern nation that has decriminalised male homosexuality, has inclusive anti-discrimination laws, allows LGBT military service, allows coparent LGBT adoption, and only falls when it comes to comprehensive relationship/marriage equality. So while I am concerned at the excessive use of military force against unarmed Palestinian civilians at some times (and indiscriminate Hamas and Hezbollah attacks on civilian settlers on the other), I don’t sing from the same songbook when it comes to the continued existence of the State of Israel, which I support.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  106. ChardonnayGuy (1,206 comments) says:

    Insofar as Milosevic’s obscene Serbian nationalist regime and its genocidal attacks on Croatians, Bosnian and Kosovan Muslims goes, by the time that it launched its murderous racist attacks on its neighbours it was only nominally socialist. Milosevic deliberately used nationalist, xenophobic rhetoric and revived and legitimised archaic and romantic premodern nationalist mythology, which had the active connivance and support of the Serbian Orthodox Church in this context. There are similar sinister racist and sectarian currents within Russian and Ukrainian Orthodoxy, which express themselves through active support for Russian neofascist hooligans and skinhead agitation.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  107. ChardonnayGuy (1,206 comments) says:

    And while we’re discussing this, no, I had absolutely no problems with NATO military action against this particular murderous and genocidal racist regime at the time, either.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  108. ChardonnayGuy (1,206 comments) says:

    And just to put the historical record straight here, the Nazi regime was neither ‘socialist’ or free market capitalist, it was corporatist. That meant that while it provided its own puppet “Aryan” trade unions and allowed “Aryan” big business to operate, it suppressed independent socialist and communist trade unionism and imprisoned communists in its concentration camps, as well as invading the USSR in 1941 (remember Operation Barbarossa)? Let us never forget that the Nazis murdered six million Jews, one million Sinti and Romani (gypsies), and countless others, including five thousand or so gay men worked to death or starved. They also banned abortion and forcibly sterilised Jewish women. My source? William Shirer’s “Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  109. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    On the one hand we have Chomsky “…the most often cited living author.”

    Y’know, Marx was one undoubtedly of the most heavily cited authors in through much of the 20th century, but I don’t think much of him, either.  Chomsky is a strongly left wing academic, one who is cited regularly by people such as yourself because he agrees with them.  I struggle to read Chomsky because I spend much of my time shouting at the book!  In the same way, Keynes appears to be the dominant force in economics, but that doesn’t mean that he was actually correct.  Same with Chomsky.

    So you stick with the people who justify, if not explicitly, the murder of millions, and you stick with anarchism, with its own history of murderous violence, and I will stick with Hayek, Popper and Friedman.  

    I read your rant about anti-zionism and I am going to ignore it.  You merely use code words for anti-semitism, so reveal yourself through your rantings.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  110. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    the Nazi regime was neither ‘socialist’ or free market capitalist, it was corporatist

    We have covered this.  The reason that the fascists opposed the communists was becase they were direct rivals for the same support base.  Hence the suppression of the rival group.  Otherwise they were very happy to admit that they were socialist in outlook, anti-capitalist in philosophy, and collectivist as a volk.

    Plus, the Soviet Union invaded Poland in 1939, also slaughtered Jews (post WW2) and other ethnic groups. So, your point?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  111. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    I read your rant about anti-zionism and I am going to ignore it. You merely use code words for anti-semitism, so reveal yourself through your rantings.”

    Your position, FE Smith, is any criticism of Israeli atrocities committed against Palestinians is an act of anti-Semitism, utterly meaningless in the context of the Palestinians being a Semitic people.

    ChardonnayGuy (562) Says:
    April 30th, 2013 at 9:57 am

    “I cannot forget that Israel is still the only Middle Eastern nation that has decriminalised male homosexuality, has inclusive anti-discrimination laws, allows LGBT military service, allows coparent LGBT adoption, and only falls when it comes to comprehensive relationship/marriage equality. “

    The populations of the Middle East have been subjected to over a century of vicious Western imperialism as they had the bare faced cheek to found their civilizations on top of all that ‘white man’s’ oil. As a group the West has effectively retarded the social development of tens of millions in the region, the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and the imposition of Israel was only one such example. It seems a little obscene demanding a people struggling for survival against a regional super-power to adopt very recent Western social norms.

    “I don’t sing from the same songbook when it comes to the continued existence of the State of Israel, which I support.”

    Which Israel do you support? As the borders the UN recognises as the legitimate extent of Israel’s territorial authourity are a long way inside the territory Israel occupies and Israel continues to unilaterally expand its borders in defiance of international law.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  112. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    The Nazis remarked at the time that all the former Communist Party members who flooded into the Nazi Party saw no real distinction between the two. Hitler’s issue with Bolshevism was nothing more substantive than that he considered it a Jewish conspiracy.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  113. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    Chomsky is very accessible. If you have an original train of argument to question, he will email you back within hours. Don’t relegate him to any but the ranks of the brilliant.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  114. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    is any criticism of Israeli atrocities committed against Palestinians is an act of anti-Semitism,

    No, if you can prove an atrocity actually committed by Israel as a nation, or by Israeli troops as individuals, then I will happily condemn the action.  

    FWIW, I don’t consider what happened on the Mavi Mamara an atrocity.  Nor do I consider the Israeli occupation of the Golan Heights, the continued exclusion of so-called ‘refugees’, nor the manner in which Israel defends itself against the murderous violence of Hamas, Fatah, and other terrorist groups, to be atrocities.  I also don’t consider the death of Rachel Corrie to be an atrocity.  I don’t even consider the continued Israeli settlement building to be atrocities.

    But I do consider your fashionably left wing support for Jew murderers and would be committers of genocide to be anti-semitism.

    Simple, eh?

    The populations of the Middle East have been subjected to over a century of vicious Western imperialism as they had the bare faced cheek to found their civilizations on top of all that ‘white man’s’ oil.

    Yes, because they were so advanced under the Ottomans.  Oh, hold on, no they weren’t. 

    the ethnic cleansing of Palestine

    No, no, that was the Ottomans, and also Hamas’ policy of ‘no Jews in Gaza’, which no doubt you support.  I do consider the attempted genocide of the Armenians to be an atrocity.

    It seems a little obscene demanding a people struggling for survival against a regional super-power to adopt very recent Western social norms.

    Well, we would just like them to stop killing everyone who looks at them sideways.  Also, not killing the Jews would also be good.  But of course, as an anarchist you have no issue with using murder to gain political ends, after all, it has been the hall mark of your movement over the years.  Plus, you support the would be genocides of Hamas, so I feel pretty safe in holding the opinion that 70 years ago you would have been a big fan of the Soviet Union. 

    Funny, that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote