Total hypocrisy

April 30th, 2013 at 12:00 pm by David Farrar

Whale Oil has a lethal blog post on the massive of .

tweeted:

Go @derekfox for byelection. U wld win for @maoriparty against @nzlabour – and become leader.

Now I think Matthew’s timing was insensitive. Of course there will be talk of the political consequences of Horomia’s death, but to tweet about it two hours after teh death was poor judgement.

Comedian Jeremy Elwood tweeted:

@MatthewHootonNZ You know someone just died, right? I want to think you don’t because the level of fucktardness if you do is inexcusable.

Now Matthew deserves the raps he got from several people for his tweet, but is Jeremy the one to take the moral high ground. Whale finds this tweet from Nov 2012:

Please tell me the rumours of Margaret Thatcher dying are true? Please do not let that be a prank. I’ve been waiting too long.

And then just two weeks ago:

Ding dong the witch is dead.

I’m sorry but what a “fucktard” hypocrite. Hooton was insensitive, but not gloating. To take the moral high ground after your gloating posts over Thatcher is fucking sick.

And he is totally unrepentant:

I will never apologise for dancing on Thatchers grave. She was my personal Hitler. P.H. was just a guy.

In other words, it is fine when I do it.

Personally I find his hypocrisy and obvious hatred of right wing politicians so sickening that if I was a National MP, I’d tell him to go fuck himself if he ever invited me onto a show he is part of. Why helps a guy who hates you get ratings?

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126 Responses to “Total hypocrisy”

  1. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    Well it’s no wonder he calls himself a comedian – the guy’s just a sick joke

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  2. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    (By the way, to stylize someone as “my personal Hitler” is inexcusably insensitive.)

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  3. toms (301 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  4. James Stephenson (2,006 comments) says:

    Who exactly is Jeremy Elwood? Does he make those T-shirts or something?

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  5. jaba (2,089 comments) says:

    who is Jeremy Elwood

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  6. RRM (9,418 comments) says:

    There have been New Zealand comedians since Billy T. James??

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  7. In Vino Veritas (136 comments) says:

    why toms? Douglas dragged this country out of the crap. He didn’t start a war, nor did he order genocide. Why would you wish to celebrate his death? I guess you were expecting some socialist nirvana when they came to power, is that why you are so hideously nasty? But then, the ones who write stupid, rabid dross are generally those that won’t stand face to face with the object of their hatred.
    Personally, I think the careerist public servant and politician Helen Clark did as much damage to NZ as any prime minister has ever done, but I’d never contemplate celebrating her death.

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  8. JMS (295 comments) says:

    “What hypocrisy?” many on the far left would ask.

    When you no longer see you political opponents as human beings, such behaviour comes naturally.

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  9. scrubone (3,044 comments) says:

    I don’t think anyone questions that it’s ok to celebrate when an evil person dies. kim jong il being one recent case.

    I think the real problem here is people being unable to tell when they’re engaging in hyperbole, in this instance calling a controversial but 100% democratic leader Hitler.

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  10. Pita (365 comments) says:

    So Toms, what is about Roger Douglas that really ticks you off? What was it that he did that was so bad it was immediately repealed when the Government changed?

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  11. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I’ve got two bottles of champagne down for when Roger Douglas dies

    Not a Labour fan then ? :)

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  12. F E Smith (3,301 comments) says:

    Why helps a guy

    Is DPF channeling Skwisgaar Skwigelf?

    But, on topic, I also would like to know who Jeremy Elwood is?

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  13. Grendel (949 comments) says:

    yes but Toms, thats because you are a cunt of the lowest order, so noone would expect anything approaching humanity for you.

    personally the death of any public figure i dont know personally does not move me at all, other than the acknowledgement that their family will be sad. i see no reason to denigrate them on death, they wont care, their supporters wont be swayed and their opponents already know their faults.

    now with regards to the Elwood thing, this is the sort of thing that gets lefties all fired up and writing letters demanding people get fired (see Paul Henry). the logical response is to write letters to TV3 and make it clear that whenever he is on 7 days you will turn it off.

    i like 7 days, its occasionally funny, but i already do turn it off when he is on, mostly because he is not funny, and cant stop trying to make everyone aware of his pointless lefty politics. now i generally can ignore that because its his right to be an unfunny always ‘on’ political loser, but hypocrisy cannot be allowed to stand.

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  14. scrubone (3,044 comments) says:

    yes but Toms, thats because you are a c**t of the lowest order

    Yea. You’re way further up the moral high-ground…

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  15. RRM (9,418 comments) says:

    yes but Toms, thats because you are a cunt of the lowest order, so noone would expect anything approaching humanity for you.

    :shock:

    Go on, tell him how you really feel. Stop holding back.

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  16. Steve Wrathall (237 comments) says:

    Furthermore toms, RD was the greatest environmentalist NZ has ever known. Why? Because his removal of farming subsidies reduced the incentive to overstock marginal, erodable hill country. That one measure has had a more positive effect on the environment than anything some fraudulently-titled “green” has dreamed up.

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  17. Grendel (949 comments) says:

    wow some precious petals here. its ok to wait and wish for someone to die, but not ok to call someone on it?

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  18. Cunningham (811 comments) says:

    Grendel no it’s not OK unless you are from the left then anything goes. Haven’t you learnt the way the left work yet? There is no depth they will not stoop to. Sickening really but not actually worth any time and effort worrying about.

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  19. Alan Johnstone (1,054 comments) says:

    Comedian lacks moral consistency in politics ?

    Really, wow.

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  20. Tom Jackson (2,458 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  21. iMP (2,231 comments) says:

    Let’s hope RNZ’s “Afternoons” takes note ala the defusing/showing-of-door of Bomber.

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  22. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    When Jim Bolger dies, this won’t happen, because he was a fundamentally decent person. Thatcher Clark was a shit. There’s no moral equivalency here.

    Incredible bias and double standards on display here. Typical of the left.

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  23. Cunningham (811 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson (458) she was democratically elected though wasn’t she? The way people celebrated her death when she was an elected head of state was pretty rank. Don’t blame her for getting elected and then implementing policies. The left only like democracy when it suits them.

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  24. unaha-closp (1,111 comments) says:

    toms,

    Remember when you make your toasts to salute the contributions of his cabinet colleagues Helen Clark and Phil Goff, without whom Sir Roger would not have been able to achieve a tenth of what he did.

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  25. decanker (222 comments) says:

    DPF: “Personally I find his hypocrisy and obvious hatred of right wing politicians so sickening… ”

    Bearing in mind there is no shortage of outright hatred for left wing politicians in your blog community. The shit that has been said about Clark et al is as disgraceful.

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  26. dime (9,355 comments) says:

    “I’ve got two bottles of champagne down for when Roger Douglas dies” – heres hoping you go first

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  27. dime (9,355 comments) says:

    I dont know who this Jeremy guy is but i imagine hes unfunny.

    no decent stand up chooses to live in NZ.

    i dont care that he hates thatcher, its the hypocrisy that makes him a dope

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  28. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    ” The shit that has been said about Clark et al is as disgraceful.”

    As an atheist I find it a shame there is not a hell for her to rot in.

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  29. kowtow (7,581 comments) says:

    Elwood tweeted “Ding dong the witch is dead”

    Well how fucking original.

    I used the “fuck” word in a sentence. That qualifies me to be a comedian!

    tom jackarse: could you show how Mrs T was a danger to humanity please.
    and you are a fucking idiot.
    There I made another joke, I said Fuck, hahahahaha.

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  30. Rightandleft (627 comments) says:

    There is some hypocrisy here in the number of people horrified that Elwood celebrated the death of Thatcher, a right-wing icon, when they celebrated the death of Hugo Chavez, the left-wing icon, just last month. I just went back and re-read the thread on his death and there were plenty of comments just as nasty as Elwood’s one about Thatcher. Chavez was democratically elected too, but I for one don’t mourn his death one little bit either. I’m no defender of that anti-American socialist demagogue, but I don’t think what Hooton did and what Elwood did are equivalent actions. Would DPF have called Elwood such a hypocrite if his comments had been about Chavez? I’m doubtful of that. Being happy about the death of a world leader who you believe was a destructive force who caused many deaths and destroyed thousands of lives is different from showing foolish insensitivity to the death of a well-regarded local politician out of a desire to speculate on the future of their seat. I’m not saying Elwood is right about Thatcher, and I certainly didn’t celebrate her death, but I don’t think this is a case of hypocrisy.

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  31. dime (9,355 comments) says:

    “I’ve got two bottles of champagne down for when Roger Douglas dies” – you seem more of that low rent type guy that would buy champagne in a can…

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  32. decanker (222 comments) says:

    “As an atheist I find it a shame there is not a hell for her to rot in.”

    There you go DPF, demerits then?

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  33. hmmokrightitis (1,506 comments) says:

    “Thatcher’s list of crimes is long and depressing”

    Come on then Tom, convince us. Waiting…

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  34. gravedodger (1,505 comments) says:

    Much of the angst the lunatic socialists feel about the serious downside outcomes Thatcher delivered, they were only the “harvest” from the crass stupidity piled high by militant thick union leaders and the shallow policy pool she inherited from all previous governments from 1945 onwards.

    When Margaret Thatcher came to power in the UK, as it was for Roger Douglas, the domestic economies were completely rooted.

    That from one who Douglas’s reforms almost buried.

    Well said Steve Wrathell, just as the space race gave unplanned advances, so too did the essential reforms of Thatcher, Douglas, et al.
    Great when someone draws attention to such outcomes.

    Back to the thread, comedian!!!! gee didn’t know that

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  35. RRM (9,418 comments) says:

    Asti Spumante does not cellar well. (True story…)

    I would just drink them now toms…

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  36. Sean (299 comments) says:

    I’ve been out of NZ for some years. Who is Jeremy Elwood? One of the Blues Brothers?

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  37. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    decanker (187) Says:
    April 30th, 2013 at 1:04 pm
    “As an atheist I find it a shame there is not a hell for her to rot in.”

    There you go DPF, demerits then?

    No because “Thatcher Clark was a shit. There’s no moral equivalency here.”

    Your selective morality is no morality at all.

    I laughed at the demands for censorship. You are a true socialist.

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  38. redeye (631 comments) says:

    Baroness Thatcher had been completely retired from public life for at least a decade. She was unlikely to cause any left leaning bludger any further trouble. Chavez was still pulling the strings. No comparison I would say.

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  39. Rightandleft (627 comments) says:

    redeye,

    So you think there will be no cheers here on Kiwiblog when Castro dies, since he too has been retired for many years. In fact on the Chavez thread people speculated gleefully about how soon Castro might join him. Again, I’m not defending those commies, I’ll shed no tears for either, but I maintain that Elwood’s reaction to Thatcher’s death was not equivalent to Hooton’s reaction to Horomia’s and he is thus not a hypocrite.

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  40. bc (1,332 comments) says:

    Well when it comes to hypocrisy, no one is a bigger hypocrite than Slater himself. After all this is a guy that has a daily proverb in a blog that is full of nasty posts.

    Anyway Slater quite rightly points out the hypocrisy of Elwood criticising Hooten’s tweet. Fair enough. But the hate runs strong in Slater, he just couldn’t help himself – at the end of his post there is this statement about Elwood:
    (quote) I bet he was the one who came up with the defence of “just making people laugh” for his kiddy fiddler mate who got in a spot of bother.

    So he writes a post criticising Elwood for making nasty comments about Thatcher, and then accuses Elwood of supporting and abetting an indecent act on a child.

    Classy, Cameron. Perhaps before accusing people of hypocrisy Cameron might want to put in the bit from the bible about ‘he is without sin casting the first stone’ in his blog and then look in the mirror.

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  41. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I guess decanker will demand demerits if we don’t act sad enough about the deaths of his other fellow socialists: Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Nicolae Ceaușescu, Ratko Mladić.

    Maybe we can follow the North Korean model and enforce mourning by armed soldiers.?

    (None of this is a dig at Horomia, who was an ok bloke.)

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  42. bc (1,332 comments) says:

    To all those people asking who Jeremy Ellwod is: Haven’t you heard of google?

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  43. redeye (631 comments) says:

    Maybe RightAndLeft but it would still be inexcusable. Anyway I thought Big Bruv had been suspended.

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  44. James Stephenson (2,006 comments) says:

    Haven’t you heard of google?

    Haven’t you heard of Rhetorical Questions?

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  45. OneTrack (2,563 comments) says:

    “In other words, it is fine when I do it.”

    It is always fine when the left does it.

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  46. hamnidaV2 (247 comments) says:

    Can’t wait to piss on Thatcher’s grave.

    #Toryscum

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  47. bc (1,332 comments) says:

    In case you hadn’t noticed James, my post was a rhetorical question!

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  48. James Stephenson (2,006 comments) says:

    You worked that out after googling “rhetorical question” did you bc?

    Another one: What the fuck is it with people putting hashtags in blog comments?

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  49. bc (1,332 comments) says:

    One Track, I’ll think you will find it’s not a left vs right thing. Just wait to what will be said on this site and Whaleoil when Helen Clark dies.

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  50. bc (1,332 comments) says:

    No, I knew what a rhetorical question was James. Clearly you didn’t, however, as you found the need to comment about mine.

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  51. decanker (222 comments) says:

    Kea: “I guess decanker will demand demerits if we don’t act sad enough about the deaths of his other fellow socialists: Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Nicolae Ceaușescu, Ratko Mladić.”

    No Kea, demerits are just a fair way for DPF to say “don’t be a dick”. I said nothing about censorship.

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  52. hj (6,329 comments) says:

    Comedy is often just a substitute for rhetoric in a debate.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/search/results?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=Jeremy+Elwood

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  53. David Garrett (6,307 comments) says:

    I have come to this late – billable hours to clock up and all that – but unless I have missed it, “Toms” has yet to tell us what major reforms Sir Roger did that were so egregious, were so obviously wrong, and did such damage to “the workers” that Labour once back in office, instantly reversed them.

    The answer of course to the question “how many of major economic reforms of the Lange/Douglas government did Labour EVER reverse?” is “NONE…nada..zero.

    I used to have a lot of fun in the House when the socialists got on to bleating about “the Douglas era” and”the damage done by Rogernonics” The question “Tell us one of his major reforms you reversed” was always greeted with an awkward silence, and the rapid change of topic.

    But aside from all of that Toms, you are clearly just a nasty bastard. I hope you are also a young one, which means one day you might grow up a bit and become a nicer man.

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  54. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    DG, I love how Labour supporters try to distance themselves from Roger Douglas. Labour were the ones who started selling state assets and were the party that brought in the most ruthless right wing policies this country had ever seen. :)

    Muldoon was a left leaning commie by comparrison.

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  55. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Jeremy Elwood is a funny guy, which is probably why most on the Right have never heard of him. You’re not known for your sense of humour.

    http://vimeo.com/50644462

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  56. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    “how many of major economic reforms of the Lange/Douglas government did Labour EVER reverse?”

    The real question is: how many of major economic reforms of the Lange/Douglas government did National reverse? Which begs the question, why didn’t Douglas simply join the National Party?

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  57. Steve Wrathall (237 comments) says:

    Real comedians handle politician death with class:

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  58. scrubone (3,044 comments) says:

    Bearing in mind there is no shortage of outright hatred for left wing politicians in your blog community. The shit that has been said about Clark et al is as disgraceful.

    And when DPF, myself or Whale dances on her grave, you can call us out.

    People hate politicans. This isn’t about that. This is about respect when someone who’s policies you disagee with dies.

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  59. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Why helps a guy who hates you get ratings?

    Your syntax goes to shit when you’re angry. :)

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  60. Peter (1,577 comments) says:

    Jeremy Elwood is a funny guy, which is probably why most on the Right have never heard of him. You’re not known for your sense of humour.

    Nah, that’s not funny.

    This is funny:

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  61. David Garrett (6,307 comments) says:

    Ross69: So that’s the “real question” is it sonny? You may not be old enough to remember, but I recall the Nats being completely nonplussed as Roger’s reforms were “rolled out” (we just “introduced” things back then) because they were going far beyond what they would dare do as a typical “conservative” bunch…Roger’s reforms were “radical” in the proper sense of the word, going back to and dealing to the root causes of the terrible mess we were in….

    But anyway this thread isnt really about him or that, its about how the left and right deal with tragedies and losses on the opposite side of the House. Graciousness in such circumstances from those on the right is not new – I recall Holyoake – just plain Mr Holyoake then – being almost moved to tears as he lamented the loss of Norman Kirk…”We will never see that big man lumbering into this house again…” or something like that. Your miserable lot couldn’t even issue a token of grief at the passing of Sir Peter Tapsell, a former Speaker and a fine gentleman….and once one of their team. That said it all for me.

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  62. scrubone (3,044 comments) says:

    J..why most on the Right have never heard of him. You’re not known for your sense of humour.

    Decide for yourself.

    http://thestandard.org.nz/category/media/the-standard-media/humour/caption-contest/
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/tag/caption_contest

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  63. unaha-closp (1,111 comments) says:

    Which begs the question, why didn’t Douglas simply join the National Party?

    Because National was run by NZs last great socialist leader Sir Robert Muldoon. Roger Douglas and David Lange were not socialists, they swept aside the failed ideologies of the Muldoon era. The stage was set for the liberal policies of the successive Bolger, Shipley, Clark and Key governments.

    BTW – is it likely toms has been leaving flowers on Sir Roberts grave?

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  64. hmmokrightitis (1,506 comments) says:

    unaha-closp:
    “BTW – is it likely toms has been leaving flowers on Sir Roberts grave?”

    Unlikely. I suspect hes been lying on it waiting for hamfucker to piss on him. Think its a game they like to play.

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  65. Yoza (1,514 comments) says:

    Thatcher, like Reagan, was a monster who worked assiduously to earn the hatred of a vast multitude. The only sadness I felt when Thatcher died was that her demise wasn’t under the blade of a guillotine – it seems unfair that she was allowed the privilege of a natural death.

    It is enjoyable watching her extreme right acolytes whine.

    Heh, one more time:

    Ding dong the witch is dead,
    the wicked witch,
    the mean old witch,
    ding dong the wicked witch is dead.

    Considering the reactionary media response to Hugo Chavez’ death and the dancing on his grave by all manner of right wing whack-jobs the left’s response to Thatcher’s demise was far more creative and humorous, no pre-WWII songs rocketed up the charts making fun of Chavez dying.

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  66. David Garrett (6,307 comments) says:

    What a sad man Yoza…imagine being…what are you, past 50? And the ideology that governed your life now turned to dust and disenchantment all around you…Cuba under Fidel still just tottering along….North Korea, the land where the 21st century hasn’t arrived…dreadful…must feel like you’re a highly trained morse code operator, 40 years after the last morse key was tapped…

    And still, after a pleasant hour drinking soda water at pub, the best they can do is “Roger Douglas should have joined the National Party..”

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  67. wat dabney (3,655 comments) says:

    Ah Yoza.

    Bless.

    I will happily piss on the grave of most politicians, because they are thugs in suits: Labour, the Greens, National.

    I have more respect for armed bank-robbers.

    But Thatcher was the champion of the average person in the street: all those who, stupidly enough, fail to organise themselves politically. She was a working-class hero who fought the thuggish, greedy special-interest groups and was reviled for it (reviled by the thuggish, greedy special-interest groups to be precise.)

    You know those “edgy” middle-class young people who like to call themselves “anarchists”? What they really are are statists, the very antithesis of anarchism. Strangely enough Thatcher was nearer to true anarchism than those poseurs: someone who believed in individual liberty and a minimal state.

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  68. Nostradamus (2,938 comments) says:

    What a sad man Yoza…imagine being…what are you, past 50?

    Hmmm… David, over here, pick me!

    Yoza (359) Says:
    May 25th, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    David Garrett (1,791) Says:
    May 25th, 2012 at 2:26 pm
    Yoza: Just out of interest…how old are you? And are you Maori or a wannabe one like Mr Signer?

    43, Hapu – Ngati Haraki. Iwi – Waitaha.

    And, Yoza, saying “The only sadness I felt when Thatcher died was that her demise wasn’t under the blade of a guillotine – it seems unfair that she was allowed the privilege of a natural death” reflects pretty poorly on you, even by your usual standards.

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  69. PaulL (5,872 comments) says:

    +1 DG. Well said.

    I think this current ideological spurt from the Labour party will have one of two consequences:
    1. The decimation of the Labour party at the next election, because nobody in NZ actually wants to go back to the 70s. Which results in the NZ Labour party, much like the UK Labour party after Thatcher, learning that there are no votes out there on the left.

    2. Labour get in on that agenda, and we do actually go back to the 70s. Unfortunately, that would drive our economy off a cliff, and maybe that’s what it takes for people in NZ to understand, like people in Australia are now understanding, that those policies don’t work.

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  70. itstricky (1,529 comments) says:

    Timing, I suspect, is the difference.

    Tweeting for a replacement two hours after a death, or spouting “the jokes are best when they are fresh” on the day of a death, as one of the learned posters did yesterday, is poor taste.

    If you want to harp on about how much hatred you had for the person’s policies or crack jokes two months afterwards it’s fine by me.

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  71. Griff (6,694 comments) says:

    Meh piss on anyone’s grave if it makes you happy Yoza.
    Griff thinks you are not even worth that .

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  72. graham (2,214 comments) says:

    Most people will understand that, whatever they say about a person who has died, is not going to affect that person greatly because … well, they’re dead.

    The people it WILL affect are that person’s relatives. Whatever you may think about someone, she was still a wife, a mother, a grandmother, an aunt. It is those people who probably loved their mother and their grandmother and their aunt to bits, who are mourning at her death, who in the time of their grief are hearing callous bastards talking about pissing on her grave.

    So next time you want to talk about Margaret Thatcher and how sad you are that she wasn’t hanged or guillotined, think about those people. Better yet, think of your own mother and if you are still lucky enough to have her around, how you will feel when she dies and someone says to you, “Good job, Tom Jackson, your mother was a real shit. Shame I didn’t get to shoot her myself.”

    Maybe then you will have a little more compassion for her children Mark and Carol; her grandchildren Michael and Amanda; and other relations.

    (PS I apologise to everyone for writing such nasty things about someone else’s mother, even if just as a theoretical example; sadly I suspect that it is about the only way to introduce such people to the concept of compassion)

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  73. tas (589 comments) says:

    The reaction by some to Thatcher’s death baffles me. Some people on my facebook feed celebrated her death. Yet these people had no connection to the UK and were about 2 years old when she left office. She was democratically elected, didn’t commit genocide or any human rights abuses, and had long since retired.

    How did they come to hate her so much? I think it says a lot about left-wing ideology that it embues people with such hatred for someone they have no connection with apart from a political disagreement.

    I challenged one of my facebook “friends” on this issue. He evidently didn’t know anything about Thatcher, just that she was right-wing…

    I don’t bear any personal ill will towards democratic politicians of any colour.

    RIP Parekura

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  74. itstricky (1,529 comments) says:

    There are plenty of generalisations of “the left always does this” but whenever anyone mentions Horomia, Clark or Chavez they get twenty auto-down votes. Whenever anyone mentions Thatcher they get twenty auto-up votes. Read the thread yesterday, read the thread from last month – the only reason the left always does this is because bias is in the eye of the beholder.

    Good poat Graham

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  75. David Garrett (6,307 comments) says:

    tas: I wonder if this is a new phenomenon? As many here know, I was for some years in my youth a Labour Party activist in New Plymouth. Thinking back, the old codgers and ladies – they were “ladies” back then – who made up the majority of the Westown LEC were a decent bunch, and the few young thrusters among us were largely unremarkable…We didn’t go arounds smashing up Nat billboards or daubing nasty slogans on them (“tagging” was mercifully for the unforeseen future)…We all worked hard to put Lange and Douglas in, and were heartily glad when a few years later Muldoon was relegated to the back benches as a parody of himself, appearing among other things as the narrator in the Rocky Horror Show….When he died in 1992 I was a newly graduated lawyer, and had long grown out of socialism…but I dont recall any dancing in the street, even though he had left one helluva mess behind him, and by then, his fanclub was a sad memory for him…But now…Shit, is it just me getting old, or have the left become an order of magnitude nastier and more vindictive?

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  76. duggledog (1,331 comments) says:

    Jeremy Elwood is often on ‘The Panel’ on National Radio. He’s quite articulate and entertaining (has to be, to do what he does) and so I find this just breathtakingly hypocritical. I’ve gone right off him.

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  77. PaulL (5,872 comments) says:

    @DG: It’s the internet. People are an order of magnitude nastier on the internet than most would be in person. Apart from a small number who mostly interact on the internet, so when they accidentally meet a person in real life, and act the same way they do on the internet, they’re very very surprised that it isn’t taken well.

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  78. David Garrett (6,307 comments) says:

    Paul: No, I have thought of that, but if that was the case, you would see the same viciousness on the right…and you just dont.

    Someone drew my attention the other day to a post about me on the Stranded… I got a dishonourable mention along with Graeme Capill, prompting one brave, anonymous hopefully young thing to write “at least Garrett waits until the babies are dead before fucking them”…There were, to be fair, a number of complaints, and after about a days delay, a moderator deleted those words saying they were “a bit over the top.”

    You just dont get that shit on here, and if you ever do, our host deletes such comments promptly, and would probably ban the superbrain who penned it. I have noticed this left/right difference ever since I became aware that political blogs existed.

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  79. duggledog (1,331 comments) says:

    I’ve got one other thing to say and Jeremy Elwood I hope you read this: Maori like Parekura laugh at white urban liberals like you

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  80. David Garrett (6,307 comments) says:

    Duggle: Funnily enough my good friend Northland Wahine – a proud Ngapuhi – says very similar things. She’s always telling me I would go down much better at a party in the ‘hood than John Minto, that champion of the dispossessed brown proletariat, who would act as if he was “one of the bros” but be laughed out of the room…or worse.

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  81. nasska (10,606 comments) says:

    David G

    I don’t think campaigners like Minto or Delahuntry begin to realise how condescending they must sound to the very people they are supposedly supporting.

    It would make me cringe if I was a Maori listening to that crap…..the halfwits should be thankful that Maori have the good grace to laugh it off rather than smack them in the ear.

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  82. OneTrack (2,563 comments) says:

    ross69 – “The real question is: how many of major economic reforms of the Lange/Douglas government did National reverse? Which begs the question, why didn’t Douglas simply join the National Party?”

    Which also begs the question, why didn’t Helen Clark join the National Party.

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  83. Yoza (1,514 comments) says:

    John Pilger offers a succinct overview of this monster’s crimes:

    “In the wake of Thatcher’s departure, I remember her victims. Patrick Warby’s daughter, Marie, was one of them. Marie, aged five, suffered from a bowel deformity and needed a special diet. Without it, the pain was excruciating. Her father was a Durham miner and had used all his savings. It was winter 1985, the Great Strike was almost a year old and the family was destitute. Although her eligibility was not disputed, Marie was denied help by the Department of Social Security. Later, I obtained records of the case that showed Marie had been turned down because her father was “affected by a Trade dispute”.

    Thatcher’s victims were not confined to Britain,… “The corruption and inhumanity under Thatcher knew no borders. When she came to power in 1979, Thatcher demanded a total ban on exports of milk to Vietnam. The American invasion had left a third of Vietnamese children malnourished. I witnessed many distressing sights, including infants going blind from a lack of vitamins. “I cannot tolerate this,” said an anguished doctor in a Saigon paediatric hospital, as we looked at a dying boy. Oxfam and Save the Children had made clear to the British government the gravity of the emergency. An embargo led by the US had forced up the local price of a kilo of milk up to ten times that of a kilo of meat. Many children could have been restored with milk. Thatcher’s ban held.”

    Thatcher also supported the Khmar Rouge: “In neighbouring Cambodia, Thatcher left a trail of blood, secretly. In 1980, she demanded that the defunct Pol Pot regime – the killers of 1.7 million people – retain its “right” to represent their victims at the UN. Her policy was vengeance on Cambodia’s liberator, Vietnam. The British representative was instructed to vote with Pol Pot at the World Health Organisation, thereby preventing it from providing help to where it was needed more than anywhere on earth.

    To conceal this outrage, the US, Britain and China, Pol Pot’s main backer, invented a “resistance coalition” dominated by Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge forces and supplied by the CIA at bases along the Thai border. There was a hitch. In the wake of the Irangate arms-for-hostages debacle, the US Congress had banned clandestine foreign adventures. “In one of those deals the two of them liked to make,” a senior Whitehall official told the Sunday Telegraph, “President Reagan put it to Thatcher that the SAS should take over the Cambodia show. She readily agreed.”

    “In 1983, Thatcher sent the SAS to train the “coalition” in its own distinctive brand of terrorism. Seven-man SAS teams arrived from Hong Kong, and British soldiers set about training “resistance fighters” in laying minefields in a country devastated by genocide and the world’s highest rate of death and injury as a result of landmines.

    I reported this at the time, and more than 16,000 people wrote to Thatcher in protest. “I confirm,” she replied to opposition leader Neil Kinnock, “that there is no British government involvement of any kind in training, equipping or co-operating with the Khmer Rouge or those allied to them.” The lie was breathtaking. In 1991, the government of John Major admitted to parliament that the SAS had indeed trained the “coalition”. “We liked the British,” a Khmer Rouge fighter later told me. “They were very good at teaching us to set booby traps. Unsuspecting people, like children in paddy fields, were the main victims.”

    In 1982, the Argentine cruiser, General Belgrano, was steaming outside the Falklands exclusion zone. The ship offered no threat, yet Thatcher gave orders for it to be sunk. Her victims were 323 sailors, including conscripted teenagers. The crime had a certain logic. Among Thatcher’s closest allies were mass murderers – Pinochet in Chile, Suharto in Indonesia, responsible for “many more than one million deaths” (Amnesty International). Although the British state had long armed the world’s leading tyrannies, it was Thatcher who brought a crusading zeal to the deals, talking up the finer points of fighter aircraft engines, hard-bargaining with bribe-demanding Saudi princes. “

    In his arms-to-Iraq enquiry, Lord Richard Scott heard evidence that an entire tier of the Thatcher government, from senior civil servants to ministers, had lied and broken the law in selling weapons to Saddam Hussein. These were her “boys”. Thumb through old copies of the Baghdad Observer, and there are pictures of her boys, mostly cabinet ministers, on the front page sitting with Saddam on his famous white couch. There is Douglas Hurd and there is a grinning David Mellor, also of the Foreign Office, around the time his host was ordering the gassing of 5,000 Kurds. Following this atrocity, the Thatcher government doubled trade credits to Saddam.”

    Little wonder the likes of David Garrett admire her.

    graham (1,866) Says:
    April 30th, 2013 at 5:49 pm
    “Most people will understand that, whatever they say about a person who has died, is not going to affect that person greatly because … well, they’re dead.”

    People are saying nasty things about the bitch because she was a thoroughly horrible person who was involved in some of the most vicious crimes against humanity perpetrated during the twentieth century. Her and her party are responsible for the negative reaction to her death, I have no problem with her family learning of the hatred she worked so hard to earn.

    I stand by what I said before: “The only sadness I felt when Thatcher died was that her demise wasn’t under the blade of a guillotine…”

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  84. OneTrack (2,563 comments) says:

    DG – “But now…Shit, is it just me getting old, or have the left become an order of magnitude nastier and more vindictive?”

    No, it is not you getting old. The left are significantly nastier and more vindictive. They also seem far more tribal than those on the right. If you don’t agree with them 100% it appears you are quickly designated “an enemy of the people” and treated as such. And it isn’t just one or two instances, it happens again and again.

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  85. graham (2,214 comments) says:

    Yoza at 8:05 pm:

    I have no problem with her family learning of the hatred she worked so hard to earn.

    I stand by what I said before: “The only sadness I felt when Thatcher died was that her demise wasn’t under the blade of a guillotine…”

    Lovely. You would seem to be someone who has no family, no children, no parents, nobody who you are truly close to and care about and love. Otherwise you might show just a glimmer of understanding.

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  86. duggledog (1,331 comments) says:

    DG I think we get the sort of response displayed by some ( and I never thought Elwood would be the type) at events such as Thatcher’s death mostly because it’s just… fashionable.

    Young people do this by nature and often grow up to change their politics entirely as in ‘if you’re not a socialist when you’re young you have no heart and if you’re not a conservative by 40 you’ve got no head’

    But also trendy urban intellectuals like Elwood will parrot stuff like ‘Ding dong the witch is dead’ and ‘John Key’s rich mates’ etc, and this I find most disappointing because I suspect they might still be trying to be ‘down with the kids’, because it’s good for business. You don’t want to be admitting any National party sympathies in a lot of show business circles!

    I loved Gary Numan because of his music, but also because he was a big supporter of Thatcher, and refused to alter his opinion one jot (for obvious reasons). Can you imagine the gnashing of teeth from his contemporaries?

    He was the coolest cat on Earth there for a while, and was apparently heavily lobbied by virtually everyone in show business to change his mind. They couldn’t bear the independent thinking. And that’s what it’s all about.

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  87. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    John Pilger offers a succinct overview of this monster’s crimes

    Yes, she was a despicable person. How anyone could compare her to Parekura, unless they’re trying to make some obscure point, is anyone’s guess.

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  88. David Garrett (6,307 comments) says:

    Onetrack: I think that’s exactly right…you are either “all in brothers, right or wrong”, or you’re a you know what…I recall getting shit when I was a union delegate for the Engineers (as they then were) because, shock horror, I insisted on following the union’s own rules when it came to secret ballots, and not the instructions of some pom from Wellington, in an immaculately tailored donkey jacket..

    Duggle:…Yes, the independent thinking…again, you have to “buy the package” in its entirety, or again, you are at best a sell out, and at worst, a you know what…nasty, vicious people…

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  89. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    The reaction by some to Thatcher’s death baffles me. Some people on my facebook feed celebrated her death. Yet these people had no connection to the UK and were about 2 years old when she left office.

    I imagine you weren’t around at the time of the Holocaust. By your logic, you’re not allowed to say anything negative about it. It must be irritating giving Hitler and the Nazis nothing but compliments. :)

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  90. wat dabney (3,655 comments) says:

    In 1982, the Argentine cruiser, General Belgrano, was steaming outside the Falklands exclusion zone. The ship offered no threat, yet Thatcher gave orders for it to be sunk.

    Perhaps the twat Pilger should try and keep up-to-date?

    If you read Richard Aldrich’s book “GCHQ” you’ll find that signals intelligence showed that the Belgrano had been ordered to reverse course and, together with other naval elements, take part in a “massive attack” on the British ships. What’s more, the submarine trailing her, HMS Conquerer, had already reported that it could not guarantee it would not lose her.

    Those were the facts as known when the order was given to attack the Belgrano.

    Thatcher could have answered her critics by making these facts known after the war, but that would have meant revealing that GCHQ could decrypt Argentine naval communications.

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  91. graham (2,214 comments) says:

    An-n-nd, there goes ross69, drawing comparisons between Thatcher and Hitler.

    Idiot.

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  92. David Garrett (6,307 comments) says:

    Another comedian…must be the day for them…

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  93. black paul (124 comments) says:

    I think what’s confusing people here is that no-one has any reason to want to dance on Horomia’s grave. He didn’t spend his career throwing millions of people on the scrapheap and destroying their families and communities.

    The comparison is frankly ludicrous.

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  94. wat dabney (3,655 comments) says:

    Paul, I don’t think anyone is really surprised that politicians who hand over other people’s money to their supporters find a lot of popularity. It’s why they do it. It doesn’t make them good people. Quite the reverse.

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  95. Yoza (1,514 comments) says:

    graham (1,868) Says:
    April 30th, 2013 at 8:18 pm

    “Lovely. You would seem to be someone who has no family, no children, no parents, nobody who you are truly close to and care about and love. Otherwise you might show just a glimmer of understanding.”

    I have …”no family, no children, no parents, nobody who [I am] truly close to and care about and love…” who participated in the kinds of horrific crimes against humanity which Thatcher indulged.

    What is the point you attempting to make? Do you really believe that the families of those who do not receive justice for the crimes they committed should be shielded from their deceased relatives criminal past?

    Cry me a river. Her family’s ignorance of her crimes is no excuse for that ignorance being allowed to survive her death.

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  96. black paul (124 comments) says:

    @ wat dabney: Maybe so, maybe not. Perfectly arguable but utterly irrelevant to the point, which is that it’s fucking retarded to compare Thatcher’s death to Horomia’s.

    Or to just about anyone else’s for that matter.

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  97. Redbaiter (7,522 comments) says:

    Why you people need to pander to these hate filled brain damaged narcissistic commies (Doza etc) and their self indulgent crap I do not know.

    Totally pointless.

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  98. David Garrett (6,307 comments) says:

    Russell! So how are you finding “I tamed them before breakfast: the Red Adair Story” ?? I enjoyed it…I particularly like the bit where he was helping Myron Kinley, and was tossed 50 feet in the air in an explosion, landed on his back, and went straight back to work…made me think of you, legend of the highlands…

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  99. wat dabney (3,655 comments) says:

    it’s fucking retarded to compare Thatcher’s death to Horomia’s.

    On that we can agree.

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  100. Griff (6,694 comments) says:

    One green for red

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  101. RRM (9,418 comments) says:

    :-P This thread delivers!

    Wedbaiter pops up in a thread titled “Total hypocrisy” and starts calling people hate filled and narcissistic and self indulgent.

    Ross69′s on a mission of his own to compare Margaret Thacher with Adolf Hitler.

    Meanwhile, Hams says he can’t wait to piss on Thatcher’s grave and throws a #toryscum hashtag, 26 people thumb him down for being such a POS and WordPress says this is “Hot Debate

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  102. itstricky (1,529 comments) says:

    You just dont get that shit on here, and if you ever do, our host deletes such comments promptly…I have noticed this left/right difference ever since I became aware that political blogs existed.

    That would explain the following completely brain dead comments just from things I’ve read in the past two days

    Take the blinkers off and get off your soap box.

    (and these are just the ones that are repeatable, so I don’t get a demerit myself):

    The despot has died. That’s a cause for celebration.
    Tom – your arrogance is that of a teacher. Shouldnt you be in class? Aren’t all teachers kiddy fiddlers? (Like all us Catholics are?)
    Right after the She Beast comes back from NY and hands herself in for art fraud.
    Because he will need quite a few pallbearers.
    He’s the villain’s stupid, overweight sidekick
    He’s ingested copious quantities of food at Bellamy’s. Nothing else.
    A condecending, self important idiot birdbrain.
    Its a breeze for Hone he just swings through the trees with the greatest of ease.

    Twats.

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  103. itstricky (1,529 comments) says:

    There you go RRM, I helped out as well.

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  104. Longknives (4,384 comments) says:

    I think there are two underlying issues here-

    1) The left regularly crow and gloat when someone from the right dies. Yet it is somehow abhorrent for the right to say a peep when someone from the left pops their clogs..
    2) Jeremy Elwood isn’t very funny.

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  105. duggledog (1,331 comments) says:

    Yoza, what a lazy post. There is always collateral damage when something has gotten so out of control, like pre Thatcher Britain. Cause and effect. The foreign policy stuff is horrendously complicated and interwoven when you’re a major player like the U.K., wheels within wheels, best advice at the time etc.

    Nobody ever likes to talk about all the farmers here who went down the shed and quietly shot themselves in the late eighties, but a hell of a lot did. It is not mentioned in Lange’s biography, but it happened all over the country

    Pilger’s a cock, except for that time he tore Kim Hill a new one, ho ho ho. ‘This interview frankly is a disgrace’ She didn’t expect that

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  106. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    An-n-nd, there goes ross69, drawing comparisons between Thatcher and Hitler.

    Except I didn’t of course.

    Ross69′s on a mission of his own to compare Margaret Thacher with Adolf Hitler.

    Nope, wrong on that count. May I suggest you re-read my post.

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  107. RightNow (6,639 comments) says:

    Patrick Warby’s daughter, Marie, was one of them. Marie, aged five, suffered from a bowel deformity and needed a special diet. Without it, the pain was excruciating. Her father was a Durham miner and had used all his savings.

    But the union helped out surely? Didn’t they? Wouldn’t they?
    Don’t tell me they didn’t, that would just shatter all my preconceptions about unions.

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  108. Nostalgia-NZ (4,896 comments) says:

    Re-reading one of your posts would be like swallowing cyanide.

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  109. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Re-reading one of your posts would be like swallowing cyanide.

    You should try it sometime, swallowing cyanide I mean. :)

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  110. Nostalgia-NZ (4,896 comments) says:

    I brush my teeth with it stupid.

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  111. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    I’d tell him to go fuck himself if he ever invited me onto a show he is part of.

    Don’t worry, David, he works with other comedians. So there’s not much chance of him inviting you onto a show. ;)

    Indeed the Right are genereally uptight and have no sense of humour. Cue Colin Craig…

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  112. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    Cue Colin Craig…

    Heh! Colin Craig is only marginally to the right of Hone Harawira.

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  113. F E Smith (3,301 comments) says:

    The only sadness I felt when Thatcher died was that her demise wasn’t under the blade of a guillotine

    You really are just a nasty piece of work, aren’t you, Yoza?  

     Typical.  The Left’s guiding principle does appear to be “why use reason when hatred, bile, and abuse will suffice?”

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  114. BlairM (2,286 comments) says:

    There is a vast difference between the death of someone who has finished his or her career and is out of public life, and the death of someone who can “still do damage”.

    Thatcher falls into the former category. Chavez was decidedly in the latter. Ted Kennedy was in the latter also.

    I’m quite happy to party it up for Chavez and Kennedy passing on, because the damage they were able to do was cut short. That is worth celebrating. But it was bizarre to see people celebrating Thatcher’s death as if simply outliving her was an achievement.

    I find Jimmy Carter insufferable, but his career is pretty much over. So you won’t find me whooping it when he goes. Maybe just sad that he couldn’t have used his born-again Christianity for better purposes.

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  115. graham (2,214 comments) says:

    yoza: For starters, you are completely wrong when you talk about Margaret Thatcher’s “crimes”. She did not commit crimes, she does not (to the best of my knowledge) have a criminal past.

    You may feel that some of the political decisions she made as the democratically elected Prime Minister were flawed, caused hardship to people, etc. That’s your call. But to talk about political decisions made by this particular democratically elected leader as crimes is misleading.

    Let’s have a look at one of your examples, Patrick Warby. Terrible shame about his daughter, but answer me this:

    (a) how is that different to any of the millions of people affected by redundancies, cutbacks, job losses? You’ve simply chosen one example involving a child to tug at the heart-strings.

    (b) Who made the decision for the miners to go out on strike? Not Thatcher. You can argue that her policies motivated the miners to strike (or more correctly, motivated the unions to strike in a feeble attempt to keep their union fees flowing in from a large workforce), but at the end of the day the miners made the decision to strike. Not Thatcher.

    (c) Was Thatcher actually helping out behind the desk of the DSS when they denied assistance to the family? I suspect not.

    So you’ve chosen to quote the example of a family who went through financial hardships because of the hardnosed action of their Union, and because their father refused to simply accept the reality of life and look for another job, because they happen to have the “poor suffering daughter” factor. Cry me a river. None of that was Thatcher’s direct fault. You can argue she set the sequence of events in motion, but others such as Scargill made the decisions that directly caused this family’s suffering.

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  116. Redbaiter (7,522 comments) says:

    “Heh! Colin Craig is only marginally to the right of Hone Harawira.”

    That’s real funny coming from a John Key supporter.

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  117. Pete George (22,728 comments) says:

    Craig certainly has policies to the left of National, for example “No asset sales, no large land sales to foreigners”.

    From his latest Q&A:

    The important thing is that the Conservative Party must always remember it is there to serve the people of New Zealand,not the interests of the powerful and wealthy.

    And…

    Binding Referenda is a bottom line for our party.

    …means he is happy for social policy to be determined by referendum, and it’s obvious the people will not always agree with the preferences of a small conservative right wing.

    But it’s odd that he presupposes the result of referendum that never was:

    “Last night was not a vote of the people of New Zealand. If it had been, the answer would have been no.”

    Does he just want referenda when he thinks it will back his view?

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  118. tas (589 comments) says:

    DG: I’m too young to know whether the nastiness from the left is getting worse.

    I get the feeling that a big part of it is differing mindsets: I understand that Labour and the Greens are (mostly) well-intentioned. They want a livable and free NZ like I do. The disagreement is about how best to achieve that—i.e. free markets and fiscal responsibility versus regulation and government spending. Unfortunately, I think many on the left don’t feel the same way. They think National and ACT want to make NZ a worse place; they think we hate poor people. They simply can’t understand that there might be another way to achieve what they want.

    With that mindset, the left think of the right as one-dimensional villains straight out of a children’s book. Consequently you get this sort of behaviour. (How else can you explain them equating Thatcher with Hitler?) How can you engage in a debate with someone who refuses to debate the merit of your ideas and simply insists that your intentions are malevolent?

    I suspect that the underlying cause is youth: Many of these people have never experienced anything approaching socialism. (Nor have I to be honest, but I know some history.) I have had people tell me what a paradise NZ was in 1984: full employment, a strong and stable economy, a harmonious society, and a wide social safety net. They can’t understand why Roger Douglas decided to upset that utopia, unless he was just a nefarious individual.

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  119. tas (589 comments) says:

    Yoza: Thatcher wasn’t perfect. Nobody is. But every time I see a list of criticisms like yours I think “Really? She was the longest serving PM in a century. And this is the best criticism you can come up with?”

    The sick girl is the victim of her father and the miners union as much as she is a victim of Thatcher. And Thatcher didn’t decide to strike. Criticising her policy towards Vietnam and Cambodia again misses the real culprits: the communist dictators the UK was fighting. The criticism of her actions in the Falklands war is laughable. I’ve even seen lefty types claim that Thatcher basically started it. Argentina invaded UK territory without provocation and took captive the local population and 57 royal marines. Thatcher took the only reasonable course of action.

    One thing lacking from all Thatcher criticism is constructive criticism: What should Thatcher have done instead? The status quo wasn’t working; something needed to be done. It’s easy to sit behind a computer 30 years later saying she was terrible, because you don’t see the huge problems the UK was facing in the 1970s. Her predecessors tried the sort of policies the left advocates: price controls, trade unionism, printing money, nationalisation, subsidies, regulation, and government spending. They all got turfed out after one term. Thatcher tried something different and won three terms. Moreover, none of her successors have tried to reverse her major changes. That says it all.

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  120. David Garrett (6,307 comments) says:

    tas: Good post…You are almost right about how the far left see us…but it’s not that we deliberately want to make NZ a worse place, but the supposed purpose of our existence is to increase the riches of our “rich mates”…That’ll be why Alan Gibbs was royally pissed off with Douglas because Roger’s removal of manufacturing subsidies cost Gibbs 15 million – in 1984 dollars…that’ll be why ACT was always struggling for money, because “our rich mates” didn’t see any benefit in it for them to ensure that ACT remained a strong viable force…and how it attracted candidates like me, who at the time drove a 1991 Accord and lived in a villa needing a great deal of TLC in an unfashionable part of the country…(it’s now a 1991 Terrano; the same villa, still needing more TLC)

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  121. itstricky (1,529 comments) says:

    Ross69. Pretty sure you have proved your point. Six down votes and a deep analysis of Craig’s political beliefs. Surprisingly the Red dude and bhudson come up with the goods however.

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  122. Yoza (1,514 comments) says:

    I don’t think of the neoliberal right as malevolent, I think of them as being amoral. They believe concentrations of capital are of greater importance than people; the only time people matter are when they control large concentrations of capital.

    As Thatcher demonstrated, in her tenure as Prime Minister of the UK, some populations control so little capital they can be relegated to the status of un-people. These un-people can be snuffed out as they matter so little – Cambodians, Vietnamese, Kurds, miner’s children etc… . Promoting this contempt for humanity as some kind of noble crusade is appalling. Pretending people like Thatcher had no choice to carry on the way they did is complete nonsense.

    “Criticising her policy towards Vietnam and Cambodia again misses the real culprits: the communist dictators the UK was fighting. “

    How is preventing aid to starving children a form of fighting communist dictators?
    How is sending the SAS in to help the Khmer Rouge mine rice paddies beneficial?
    Why is demanding the deposed Khmer Rouge represent Cambodia at the UN acceptable?
    What communist dictator was she fighting in Iraq when the UK was selling arms to Saddam Hussein, while knowing full well he had used chemical weapons against the Kurds?
    Where was the communist dictator in Indonesia when she was selling weapons to the mass-murderer Suharto?

    This is a woman who praised the fascist mass-murderer Pinochet for “bringing democracy to Chile. Apparently, using the military to overthrow an elected government then slaughtering tens of thousands is democracy in action. Where was the communist dictator in Chile?

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  123. graham (2,214 comments) says:

    Waiting for your answer to my post at 5:02 this morning …

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  124. tas (589 comments) says:

    Yoza: the greatest concentration of wealth and power is in the government. Communist societies are far more unequal than capitalist ones. Moreover, the concentration of wealth in the hands of government is obtained by appropriation, rather than free commerce.

    Thatcher wasn’t perfect, but you present a very twisted view of her. Trying to blame her for the atrocities in Cambodia etc. is drawing the bow too far. Thatcher had very little to do with those countries. By that perverse standard every world leader is a monster.

    And don’t get me started on Chile. Salvador Allende (the socialist) was “elected” (with 37% of the vote) but he basically a href=”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chile_under_Allende”>suspended the constitution. Pinochet eventually gave up power willingly and restored democracy. so who is the real villain? The guy who destroyed democracy (even though he was initially elected) or the guy who (eventually) restored it? Pinochet was no saint, but the whole picture is more complicated and you shouldn’t just criticize Thatcher for dealing with him.

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  125. Yoza (1,514 comments) says:

    graham (1,871) Says:
    May 1st, 2013 at 6:32 pm
    “Waiting for your answer to my post at 5:02 this morning …

    Thatcher’s administration put pressure on the DSS to prevent a 5 year old girl getting vital medical treatment and you blame the girls father?

    This is called collective punishment, the Thatcher regime effectively went after a defenceless child as a means of punishing her father for a perceived act of disobedience. Pretty straight forward and utterly reprehensible.

    “Thatcher wasn’t perfect, but you present a very twisted view of her. Trying to blame her for the atrocities in Cambodia etc. is drawing the bow too far.”

    Supporting the deposed perpetrators of mass-murder with military assistance because her US counterpart requested it, then lying about that support in parliament, means she was up to her neck in it. You are equivocating where the historical evidence is damning. ” In 1991, the government of John Major admitted to parliament that the SAS had indeed trained the “coalition”. “We liked the British,” a Khmer Rouge fighter later told me. “They were very good at teaching us to set booby traps. Unsuspecting people, like children in paddy fields, were the main victims.”

    tas (286) Says:
    May 1st, 2013 at 7:31 pm: “And don’t get me started on Chile. Salvador Allende (the socialist) was “elected” (with 37% of the vote)…”

    In New Zealand in 2011 only 74.21% of eligible voters participated, of which National received 47.31% which works out to be about 35% of eligible voters voted for National. Are you questioning the legitimacy of the Key regime?

    “Pinochet eventually gave up power willingly and restored democracy. so who is the real villain? The guy who destroyed democracy (even though he was initially elected) or the guy who (eventually) restored it?”

    Pinochet was effectively shunted from power after the Chilean economy collapsed, a restoration to democracy would have seen Pinochet and his henchmen in the military stand trial for their murderous reign. As this did not happen the only conclusion one can draw is that Pinochet and his henchmen effectively allowed voting to proceed while holding guns to the heads of the Chilean people. Although, I can understand why the far-right would support this odious form of ‘democracy’, I doubt any sane person believes this would be acceptable.

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  126. tas (589 comments) says:

    Yoza: This discussion can go nowhere. I simply don’t accept the argument that Thatcher is a monster because an innocent child got caught in the crossfire of a dispute between her government and a militant union. It was never her intention to hurt children. There is nothing she could have done to completely avoid hurting some innocent bystanders. The girl’s father chose to strike, so he didn’t get paid; it simply isn’t reasonable to expect otherwise. Furthermore, it’s completely unfair to blame Thatcher, but not the people who instigated the strike. Are you planning celebrate the death of Arthur Scargill?

    Yes, there was collateral damage from what Thatcher did. But she did not want that. Every world leader will do things that indirectly hurt innocent people. They try to avoid that, but it is unavoidable. Give me an example of a world leader who isn’t a criminal by your standards.

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