Greens say they may legislate to over-turn the Auckland Convention Centre deal

May 13th, 2013 at 4:00 pm by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

co-leader Metiria Turei said the deal was “disastrous” but she had not yet sought legal advice on the implications of rejecting the deal.

She said it could become a bottom line in future coalition discussions between the Greens and Labour and the Greens would want the legislation repealed.

“Whether we can negotiation that with them in the future – we will see. The Green Party does not accept being held to ransom like this and will repeal this legislation if we get into Government,” she said.

Another sabotage attempt. It is true Parliament is sovereign, and could legislate to break a contract the Government has signed without any penalties or compensation. Likewise Parliament could pass a law to nationalise supermarkets, confiscate your house without compensation or whatever it likes.

However it is a sure fire way to scare investment away from a country. A major reason why first world countries are first world countries is because of respect for property rights and the fact people can invest in a country without fear that a change of Government may result in their investment or property being confiscated.

The Greens seem to be positioning themselves to the left of Chavez, and Labour are trying to outflank them on the left.  That’s good news for National, but bad for New Zealand as eventually they will get elected.

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150 Responses to “Greens say they may legislate to over-turn the Auckland Convention Centre deal”

  1. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  2. hamnidaV2 (247 comments) says:

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  3. peteremcc (344 comments) says:

    I dont’ think the Greens really care about scaring away investors anyway – they don’t want anything foreign owned.

    Could we give Sky City the “compensation” money NOW, to be repaid later if the deal iSN’T reneged on?

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  4. queenstfarmer (782 comments) says:

    All true. But the Greens aren’t concerned about harming investment. They regard such things as evil capitalism, and think that any growth is “unsustainable”.

    Plus, any investment hole can be filled by Russel Norman’s money printing machine.

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  5. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    …and Labour are trying to outflank them on the left.

    Like Jacinda Ardern’s proposal for “interest free loans to beneficiaries and those on low incomes so they don’t have to use loan sharks”.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/134970/labour-floats-social-lending-proposal

    National are outrageously conservative with their loan shark bill:

    It stipulates that they can only lend money to people who can afford to make the repayments.

    National must hate beneficiaries.

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  6. queenstfarmer (782 comments) says:

    The Tory Government’s cronyism knows no bounds.

    The EU vote? The horse-trading with the Lib Dems? How is that relevant to Sky City?

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  7. wreck1080 (3,972 comments) says:

    This seems to be a very ugly change in politics — the parties to the left are vowing to reverse changes which have not even passed.

    I’ve not really seen such vindictiveness in NZ politics before. eg, national have not dismantled Working for families or free student loans .

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  8. Cunningham (846 comments) says:

    They need to be destroyed at the next election to give them a lesson. I prey that kiwis will be scared shitless by their crazy policies come election day. If not then the damage they cause will take years to undo.

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  9. Cunningham (846 comments) says:

    Judith (2,433) you’re having a laugh aren’t you? First they will scare away investment in the power industry and now this industry. Who is going to want to invest here? How do we know they don’t start to shit on the supermarkets next? Investment will dry up and we will all be fucked. You need to be committed if you think going down this route has merit.

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  10. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

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  11. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    Dunne concerned by Greens’ threats

    United Future MP Peter Dunne finds it deeply concerning and says it would be a step down a very dangerous path.

    “If you threaten the sanctity of commercial negotiations in that way, what that would mean is that no long term deals would be done by any commercial entity in New Zealand for fear of what a subsequent government might do.”

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/382064200-dunne-concerned-by-greens–threats

    Pleased to hear him speaking out about this. He has also just tweeted:

    @PeterDunneMP

    @KiwiblogDPF small point I know but they need a majority in Parliament to do so, or have they in their mounting arrogance forgotten that?

    There does seem to be growing Green arrogance recklessness.

    If Labour was strong they would distance themselves from this but they seem to be climbing on board the Green socialism train.

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  12. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

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  13. Nookin (3,473 comments) says:

    “The Tory Government’s cronyism knows no bounds.”

    Labour did the same deal. 230 pokies for an Auckland Convention centre. National appears to have negotiated a better deal. Tell us, Hamnida, what principles did you apply to applaud labour and at what point in time, and for what reasons, did you adopt diametrically opposite principles so you can condemn National?

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  14. Cunningham (846 comments) says:

    Judith (2,434) how will it create problem gamblers? Are they lining up outside now waiting for a free pokie machine in SkyCity? Not they aren’t! The left cannot answer this quesrion because there is no bloody answer. People visiting the convention centre will use these new machines.

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  15. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Nookin (2,501) Says:
    May 13th, 2013 at 4:20 pm

    —————————-

    Exactly – Labour and National – not a decent morality in any of them – “screw them before they screw you” politics – the whole lot of them are a disgrace.

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  16. Nookin (3,473 comments) says:

    “…he’s the prick responsible for allowing the bastards in the country in the first place. ”

    I think you are mistaken Judith. I think many of the Greens are home grown — apart from the Norman fellow — and I don’t think Dunne had any part to play in allowing him into the country. I think that if you ignore the Greens they won’t cause any harm to families. The time to remember this is at the ballot box.

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  17. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Cunningham (449) Says:
    May 13th, 2013 at 4:21 pm
    ———————————-

    On average there are ‘two’ machines free – however at the popular times of day it is impossible to get a free machine.

    Ask yourself this – if Sky was unable to fill all its current machines, why would it be wanting more?

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  18. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Nookin (2,502) Says:
    May 13th, 2013 at 4:25 pm
    ———————————

    The bastards I referred was the pokie machines, of which Peter Dunne played a fundamental role in getting the legislation to allow them into the country.

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  19. Silly Will Bunions (143 comments) says:

    Any New Zealander who is going to be addicted to poker machines, is ALREADY addicted to poker machines. As older ones leave the addiction, the younger ones might enter, but the percentage will not change, no matter how many machines are available nationwide.

    And let’s remember, the number of machines and the number of outlets, has substantially reduced under John Key administration.

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  20. Cunningham (846 comments) says:

    Judith (2,438) Says:

    Ask yourself this – if Sky was unable to fill all its current machines, why would it be wanting more?

    Because of all the extra visitor to the convention centre!!!

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  21. Rightandleft (670 comments) says:

    Why can’t the nanny statists just leave people alone for once? This isn’t even health and safety, the gamblers aren’t going to cost us tax money, they’re just impoverishing themselves if anything. If they’re spending benefit money on pokies the answer is to stop paying them benefits in cash form, make it food stamps like in the US. If their children aren’t getting fed send in Cyfs and give the agency a better stick. Why punish the majority of gamblers who do so responsibly or hurt no one but themselves for the foolishness of the minority?

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  22. Manolo (14,086 comments) says:

    Be careful, Judith. Your hero, David Bain, has been spotted playing the pokies at times.

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  23. Simon (764 comments) says:

    With the fundies & collectivists treating people like children companies like Sky anit gonna want to put up $402 million without some guarantees.

    Look at the opposition what a shower of shit. National put together a shady deal but this line of attack by the fundies & collectivists is banana republic material……… hence the 35yr deal.

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  24. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Cunningham (450) Says:
    May 13th, 2013 at 4:29 pm
    —————————————-

    Exactly !

    And the number of problem gamblers will increase, and we will pay more money as tax payers for the damage their addiction does. Sky will pay sweet f. all.

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  25. Wayne Mapp (67 comments) says:

    Actually you cannot legislate to expropriate an overseas interest, unless you pay compensation, especially if there is a specific agreement on the point. It is covered by the international law principle of state responsibility, which was the core part of my PhD.

    This kind of action is something normally associated with third world governments. Is the influence of the Greens such that companies with major overseas shareholding now need such agreements in order to do business in NZ- also something associated with the third world. It certainly differentiates us from Australia, but only in a bad way!

    Also I wonder how this squares with Russell Normans attempts to make the Greens look more reasonable to business.

    The real alarm bells will go off if Labour threatens to do the same as the Greens. This would be seen by overseas investors as very different to Power Co, which is within the range of normal behaviour of western governments.

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  26. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    It’s not possible to stop all gambling, nor should we try. Uncontrolled gambling is potentially far worse the regulated gambling.

    I’d rather see less pokies, and prefer they were concentrated in places like casinos rather than scattered around communities.

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  27. Cunningham (846 comments) says:

    Judith (2,439) they will likely be overseas visitors to the centre!! They will come, gamble and then leave NZ. Should we weep over those people spending some money on pokies while they are here?

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  28. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Rightandleft (404) Says:
    May 13th, 2013 at 4:30 pm
    Why can’t the nanny statists just leave people alone for once? This isn’t even health and safety, the gamblers aren’t going to cost us tax money, they’re just impoverishing themselves if anything.
    ———————————————-

    Do you have any idea how much we pay for problem gambling at the moment?

    It is not just themselves they are impoverishing. There have been large numbers of convictions for embezzlement by people who have become addicted to pokie gambling. Whilst beneficiaries may use the machines, the statistics indicate that initially those who develop addictions are employed in long term and secure employment (which changes as their addiction deepens)

    This is very much a health and safety issue – addiction is not a joke – especially to the family members who have to live with the consequences.

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  29. Don the Kiwi (1,794 comments) says:

    Shit Judith, you are dumb and stupid.
    The people coming to the new convention centre are wealthy overseas visitors and who are accustomed to having a flutter, because they can afford to.
    Your communist colours are really coming out – red. I suppose you loved the USSR too.
    FFS. I can’t understand the shallow socialist thinkers. Why don’t you go live in China – or North Korea – you will notice that they do what you are agreeing with.

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  30. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Cunningham (451) Says:
    May 13th, 2013 at 4:34 pm
    Judith (2,439) they will likely be overseas visitors to the centre!! They will come, gamble and then leave NZ. Should we weep over there people spending some money on pokies while they are here?

    ————————————–

    So you would have no problem with legislation like some other countries have which prevents locals from entering the premises ?

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  31. Elaycee (4,410 comments) says:

    Judith:

    Pokie machines are ‘evil’ – their programming is such that the subliminal messages involved led to addiction in a large majority of users.

    Subliminal messages?

    I’m sure you have proof of such a claim – please provide the proof.

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  32. Ross12 (1,456 comments) says:

    The Greens seem to think that their 10/12% of the vote ( if the manage to hold that level) will give them huge negotiating power. The list they seem to have as “bottom lines” for doing a deal with Labour is getting very long. But I think they are getting so anti everything that those looking for jobs or to better themselves will soon click on to the fact that the Greens are effectively anti job seekers and ambitious people as well.

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  33. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Don the Kiwi (954) Says:
    May 13th, 2013 at 4:36 pm
    Shit Judith, you are dumb and stupid.
    The people coming to the new convention centre are wealthy overseas visitors and who are accustomed to having a flutter, because they can afford to.
    —————————————-

    That was the exact argument Skycity gave to get machines in the first place. They claimed that it would not be New Zealand residents that used the machines, but tourists.

    Have you been there lately? The machines are dominated by NZers. The same will happen with the convention centre. Skycity do not care who uses the machines, providing someone does.

    If you really believe that it would only be tourists, then I am sure you would have no problem with the suggestion that locals should be banned from accessing them.

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  34. Grant Michael McKenna (1,160 comments) says:

    “Pas d’ennemis à gauche” indeed.

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  35. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    @Wayne Mapp

    Also I wonder how this squares with Russell Normans attempts to make the Greens look more reasonable to business.

    I think Norman worked hard on appearing to be reasonable to business and credible on economic policy.

    But then he got ahead of himself, thinking things were going well enough for the Greens to start pushing what he really wanted to do.

    It’s good we find this out now. Imagine what he would try if he actually became Minister of Finance. Hopefully he won’t spook business too much before the Green polling crashes.

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  36. lastmanstanding (1,304 comments) says:

    Labour and the Greens are both anti private property rights. In 2007 Klark and Kullen stopped me and other selling property we had bought with our tax paid dollars.

    Whats to stop Labour and the Greens passing a law that I have to sell my house for a fraction of its market value to a ‘poor beneficiary” and make them an interest free loan of the sell amount that they can pay back at their leisure if at all.

    NOTHING. And that’s why every property owning citizen should be very afraid of Labour and the Greens.

    You don’t know if or more likely when they will do this.

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  37. toms (299 comments) says:

    “…Labour did the same deal…”

    Goodness me, a right wing liar on Kiwiblurg, who would have thought? . As Russell Brown so helpfully notes,

    “…The (then) Labour government played no role in the 2001 arrangement. As Bernard Orsman noted in the Herald a year ago, the decision was made by the five-member Casino Control Authority, which was chaired at the time by soon-to-be MP Judith Collins…”

    The fact are out there, even if Kiwiblog nitwits only act as repeaters. I would suspect that if you looked, you would find a little string on Nookins back, and when you pull it a selection 3-4 National party lies would burble out, ad nauseum.

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  38. Cunningham (846 comments) says:

    Yes judith I would have a problem with that. The vast majority have no problem and you are right, a minority do. Hell there are people out there who weigh 200kgs from eating bad food. Should we ban all unhealthy food as well? Brussel sprouts for everyone :-) Then maybe we should ban alcohol because somepeople overdo it and it costs the taxpayer. You could go on and on……

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  39. Manolo (14,086 comments) says:

    Shit Judith, you are dumb and stupid.

    Also you offer no proof of your ridiculous assertions.
    It is control-freaks like you that ruin it for the rest of us. Get lost!

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  40. rangitoto (251 comments) says:

    If they really believed this they would be demanding the closure of all the Casino’s, TAB, Lotto and any other gambling. The only real reason they oppose it because it is a good deal for NZ. Just political grandstanding BS.

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  41. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Elaycee (3,469) Says:
    May 13th, 2013 at 4:39 pm
    ————————————

    There is a great deal of information that proves this, however, most of it is far to complex to get into here.

    But briefly I’ll explain some of the basic subliminal messaging involved.

    You put $20 into the machine, push the button a couple of times and your spins result in a return of $10. It doesn’t tell you, “TOO BAD – you’ve just lost $10″ – instead if flashes its lights (deliberately toned in red tones because red lessens the inhibitions) – Congratulations – you’re a winner !! Thus offering positive reinforcement – encouraging the person to continue.

    One of the strongest messages comes via the actually programming which allows the spins to constantly stop at a level that is ‘just one off’ the winning combination – thus letting the gambler believe that the next spin will produce a win.

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  42. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    The Greens have been involved with the fight against pokie machines for years. This is nothing new from them.

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  43. RRM (10,034 comments) says:

    A new convention centre is “disastrous”… really? :???:

    “We consider this to be unconstitutional and it is a breach of Parliamentary sovereignty to lock a government into a commercial deal for 35 years.”

    Fuck’s sake. Heaven forbid the Govt might contract something that runs for longer than 3 years, or takes longer than 3 years to pay for.

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  44. flipper (4,241 comments) says:

    Wayne Mapp…

    Thanks Mr PhD. Good clarification.

    Judith, my friend, one cannot hold the hand of any child beyond puberty. Let it go. If someone wishes to gamble their money or assets ( I have just once for the princely sum of $20 in Queensland) it is their choice.

    You and society have no responsibility to bail them out..

    For Lords sake, will we next pay (or ban) traffic fines? Come to think of it, that may be more useful than banning pokies et :)

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  45. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    rangitoto (64) Says:
    May 13th, 2013 at 4:45 pm
    If they really believed this they would be demanding the closure of all the Casino’s, TAB, Lotto and any other gambling. The only real reason they oppose it because it is a good deal for NZ. Just political grandstanding BS.

    ————————————

    You couldn’t be more wrong, or ignorant. The reason why pokie machines are so frowned on is because their nature encourages addiction. It is well documented that gambling that offers instant results is far more addictive and damaging than those methods for which the gambler has to wait for results.

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  46. rangitoto (251 comments) says:

    This deal results in less overall pokies and in a much more easily controlled environment. Also TAB style gambling creates plenty of problem gamblers, even taxpayer funded ones like that leftie in Parliament.

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  47. Elaycee (4,410 comments) says:

    @Judith:

    There is a great deal of information that proves this, however, most of it is far to complex to get into here.

    and

    One of the strongest messages comes via the actually programming which allows the spins to constantly stop at a level that is ‘just one off’ the winning combination – thus letting the gambler believe that the next spin will produce a win.

    Oh, what total bollocks. But thank you for proving (yet again) that you haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about. You stated there are subliminal messages programmed into the machines and I called bullshit. And you can’t prove it – because your claim is a complete crock of shit.

    So I’ll help explain it to you: all gaming machines operate via a random number generator. The screen only interprets the number that is generated for each spin. And they only generate….. er, numbers and definitely NOT subliminal messages – your claim is a crock of shit. Another crock is the claim that they are programmed to come up ‘one off’ a payout. Because the random number generator generates numbers only. And they are RANDOM! And all machine programmes are tested (by the Dept Of Internal Affairs) over 100,000 spins to ensure they deliver the correct player odds.

    So (and not for the first time) please stop telling porkies.

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  48. Raphael (88 comments) says:

    Judith said: “deliberately toned in red tones because red lessens the inhibitions”

    And here I thought that the people pushing for teachers to do their marking using green pens instead of red pens were saying it’s because red tones makes people feel angry, and green makes them feel calm and relaxed.

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  49. JeffW (327 comments) says:

    One of the greatest problems facing this country is the significant lack of personal responsibility. Sadly, so far no government is doing anything about reversing the encroachment of the nanny state. This awful behaviour by the melons has its heart the view that government should protect people from themselves (in addition to the core belief that business is bad). The more government tries to protect people from themselves, the less responsibility for their own actions the citizenry demonstrates. This seems to me to increase bad behaviour, not solve it.

    I dislike the melons with a real passion.

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  50. RRM (10,034 comments) says:

    Also it’s interesting how often we hear of “Labour and the Green Party _____ ” lately.

    It’s like being 23 again and all of a sudden your mates start having permanent girlfriends, so you have to remember you’re inviting Dave & Sarah, not just Dave himself who was a slightly different article…

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  51. Akaroa (591 comments) says:

    Well, ol’ Judith sure seemed to have a head of steam aboard on this one, eh?

    What’s the old saying? Oh yes, ‘Me thinketh (s)he protest too much” Has Judith had a bad experience pokie-machine-wise, I wonder?

    However, apart from that, and being sensible for a change, we live in a society where – provided the law is not broken – people are at liberty to conduct themselves however they wish. If someone wants to spend time pushing coins into a pokie machine – well, that’s their business. Its not something I’d ever do, but each to his/her own.

    I have no particular political boat to float, but I do believe that people should be allowed to live their own lives however they want without the uninvited interference of third party nosey parkers and busybodies saying to other adults, “That’s bad for you. Stop doing it. Or we’ll stop you!”

    They call it freedom. You remember freedom! Sure you do!!

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  52. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Elaycee (3,470) Says:
    May 13th, 2013 at 5:01 pm

    ———————-
    More bullshit from you.

    The DIA does test the programming and can acknowledge that certain numbers occur more frequently than others, allowing them to appear more often. The random number generator selects from the total number of ‘figures/numbers’ available and when one occurs more frquently than the others, it obviously appears more often.

    The subliminal messages are also involved in the ‘language’ used within the program with each particular play – such as the example I gave. Are you also going to deny that the machines tell you that you’ve won, when in fact you’ve lost?

    Typical desperate crap from you as usual – it can and has been proved and for years has been the subject of a great deal of discussion involving the DIA – who continually side with the industry over the interests of the community. This is evident in the small number of cases that the DIA does prosecute – compared to the actual breaches reported. They are reluctant to do anything to upset the gaming industry and especially the hospitality industry, who work closely together.

    That fact that it cannot be adequately demonstrated on here is because this board does not provide the ability to present the programs that do demonstrate how the machines are programmed, and how that encourages problem gambling. However, if you know so much, I am sure you are aware of them and how to access them – but you won’t of course – will you! ;-).

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  53. rangitoto (251 comments) says:

    Someone find a tinfoil hat for Judith.

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  54. Longknives (4,889 comments) says:

    The nutty Greens also want to ban horse racing- Despite the fact it employs thousands of New Zealanders and is a major export industry…

    Pokies and Horse Racing = The root of all Evil.
    Drugs= Fabulous expression of our Civil rights.

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  55. Zapper (1,033 comments) says:

    So if I spend $20 on the Pokies at 10 cents a spin, and one of the spins yields a $10 win, the machine needs to calculate how much I’ve spent so far (so they’ll need a way to recognise a face), and use suitable language when informing me of what just happened?

    I’ve spent $10.10 and get a winner to take my net gain to -$0.1, what should the machine say? “You lost, not a huge loss but you’re a loser nonetheless”. Can it also take into account the enjoyment I get from the experience, thus calculating my overall utility, and then tailor a message to suit?

    That’s going to require some good programming, isn’t some guy from The Standard the self-proclaimed best developer in the world? Better get him on to it.

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  56. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Akaroa (268) Says:
    May 13th, 2013 at 5:27 pm
    ———————————

    I have a problem with them, but not because of my own personal usage. I acted in an advisory capacity for the blue team when the Gambling Bill was going through the Select Committee process. As a result I was privy to a great deal of information regarding the machines and how the system works. Enough to know they are something this country does not need.

    As I said, I have no problem with any of the other forms of gambling, but these machines are not about ‘personal choice’. They have the ability to effect even the most successful and strong willed people – as is evidenced by some of those people being convicted for fraud. Done to support their pokie habit.

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  57. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Zapper (588) Says:
    May 13th, 2013 at 5:40 pm
    ———————————-

    The machines already record individual plays from the single note inserted. They know exactly how much you played from that note and what you have won/lost. All that sort of information is required to assess the input and return the legislated amount that must be paid in ‘winnings’.

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  58. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,924 comments) says:

    Wait till Mr Norman announces the new Opposition Defense Policy.

    Disband the Army, Navy and Air Force.

    Think of all the money they’s save, thus avoiding the need to print more.

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  59. big bruv (14,166 comments) says:

    And yet our media still refuse to do anything but give the Greens a free ride.

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  60. Elaycee (4,410 comments) says:

    @Judith:

    Unfortunately, you’re wrong again. There are NO subliminal messages on gaming machines – None. Nada. Nil. Zip. Zero. You can believe whatever you like – all I can do is tell you the facts. And your claim that numbers from a random number generator contain subliminal messages, is crap.

    The DIA runs the programme (EPROM) over an extended period to test all facets of the game. And they run it for a full 100,000 spins to verify several elements including the player odds. There is a requirement for games to guarantee a specified RTP in the programme and in the rare event that a programme fails to deliver the correct RTP, the manufacturer has to go away and fix it / re-submit it to the DIA again. Before it ever gets near a gaming floor.

    And whilst I’m at it… do you know that the machine operator cannot even use artwork / put a badge on a machine / install a top box on a machine unless it has been approved in advance by the DIA? No? Thought not… And as for the suggestion that code cutters can somehow enter subliminal messages – that is one of your biggest porkies to date – and we have certainly been blessed with choices! And the EPROM used in each machine is heavily protected to ensure no-one can tamper with it, so if you think you know of a machine that delivers subliminal messages – best contact someone at the Gambling Division of the DIA in Wellington.

    One last thing… your suggestion that the DIA sides with the industry over community interests, is laughable. In fact, such a bollocks claim merely proves again that you have no idea what really happens within the industry.

    No idea at all.

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  61. dishy (248 comments) says:

    The claim about Parliamentary sovereignty is ridiculous (even by Greens standards) and disingenous. South Island high country leases involve the Crown in commercial deals that last longer than 35 years.

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  62. smttc (763 comments) says:

    As Wayne Mapp alluded earlier, what exactly do the Greens mean when they say they will legislate to “overturn” this deal?

    Skycity will build, own and operate this convention centre. The Greens cannot take that off them.

    So I assume they will take the licence extension and 230 poker machines off the casino. Well whoopy doo. Are they suggesting Skycity will not get an extension under a future government when the licence comes up for renewal/negotiation in 2021?

    Do these morons actually think before they open their mouths to make these dumbarse pronouncements?

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  63. OneTrack (3,237 comments) says:

    If Labour was strong they would distance themselves from this but they seem to be climbing on board the Green communism train.

    There, fixed it for you.

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  64. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Congratulations to the National led Government.

    Looking forward to seeing hundreds of builders going to this site to complete the construction of the convention centre.

    Looking forward to smiles on the hundreds of full and part-time staff that will be employed.

    Looking forward to the national and international events that will be held there.

    Looking forward to the extra GST and PAYE that will leak into the economy because of this.

    This is fantastic. A half a billion dollar construction project going on in town, fucking brilliant

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  65. OneTrack (3,237 comments) says:

    “They call it freedom. You remember freedom! Sure you do!!”

    Ask me again, late 2015.

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  66. OneTrack (3,237 comments) says:

    “Skycity will build, own and operate this convention centre. The Greens cannot take that off them.”

    Yes they can if they are the government.

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  67. Colville (2,300 comments) says:

    All this BS from the looney Greens is going to be great for Nationals donation stream in 2014…. anyone who earns a legal dollar should be supporting the Blue team.

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  68. PaulL (6,048 comments) says:

    Not a big fan of gambling. And of the forms of gambling, pokies are one of my least favourite. But, as someone who believes that it is not the job of govt to tell people what’s good for them, I’m not sure why this is any of my business. I can accept that just because I don’t like pokies doesn’t mean that I should seek to ban them. I also don’t particularly like horses, but not sure we should ban them either. I also don’t really like shellfish, but not sure we’d ban that either. I am strongly against three quarter pants on women, and I’d maybe have a go at banning that.

    Bottom line, I understand Judith that you don’t like pokies. But it’s a really hard argument that people who play pokies don’t know that they lose money from them. As always, targeting the many because of the actions of a few is just restricting liberty for the law abiding, but probably not going to stop those who are not law abiding continuing to do it illegally. Net result is erosion of liberty and increasing encroachment of govt, usually with lots of compliance costs and unintended consequences, at the end of which the problem gamblers just find some other way to gamble.

    I’d rather the government focused on things they should actually be doing.

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  69. RandySavage (223 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  70. OneTrack (3,237 comments) says:

    “anyone who earns a legal dollar should be supporting the Blue team.”

    But National are left of Helen. In the same breath, the watermelons are now a clear and present danger to New Zealand, Inc.

    How do I join?

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  71. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    A timely tweet for you OneTrack:

    @GarethMP
    At Green Party Wellington Provincial meeting tonight. If you want to join the Greens & get involved you can at http://www.greens.org.nz

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  72. Bogusnews (477 comments) says:

    Judith, you seem to forget that:

    Under Labour there was about 25,000 pokies. Under National this has fallen to about 18,000. Ok, so there will be a 300 or so more, well, it’s still a heck of a lot less than Labour.

    Also, Labour did a very similar deal (with Green support) back in about 2000. How does that work if they are the paragons of virtue.

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  73. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    Greens demonstrate their economic nous:

    Greens accuse English of failing to rebalance economy

    Three days before Finance Minister Bill English delivers his fifth Budget, the Green Party has accused him of failing in his bid to rebalance the economy.

    The Greens commissioned a report by economic consultancy BERL that has found the economy has moved backwards under the National-led Government.

    In its push to rebalance the economy, the Government wanted to move investment away from property and into export industries.

    But the BERL report says things have got worse and New Zealand’s current account deficit – the difference between what it earns and spends overseas – is predicted to get bigger.

    Greens co-leader Russel Norman said that Mr English used to speak frequently about rebalancing the economy, but no longer mentions it.

    Dr Norman said the country cannot continue to spend more than it earns.

    He said the Greens would introduce policies to deter investment in property and to help exporters if elected next year.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/134983/greens-accuse-english-of-failing-to-rebalance-economy

    Just in case you missed it, Dr Norman said the country cannot continue to spend more than it earns.

    But Dr Norman didn’t explain how the Greens are going to deter business, reduce SOE dividends, reduce tax take, increase social spending substantially, increase subsidies, stop foreign investment, stop foreign land ownership – and not spend more than we earn.

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  74. Andrei (2,668 comments) says:

    Gambling is a parasitic industry and the fact the National has servilely gone cap in hand to this industry shows how bereft of vision they are and how incapable they are of developing real productive enterprises for the future of this country.

    But we all know how mediocre the Fifth National Government under John Key is

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  75. PhilP (163 comments) says:

    Phuck! just seen that mad watermelon woman Meteria Turei on the news saying they will legislate against the Casino licence extension when the Greens are in Govt. Does this mad woman have any business clues?….. I thought not. Just crazy spouting off at the mouth stuff from a lightweight list mp. David Shearer, to his credit, was much more measured in his response. Don’t know how long a coalition with the watermelons would last though as Liarbore will sell their soul to gain the treasury benches again. She has probably started to damage NZ investment already with her crazy comments. The Gweens and Liarbore are presenting National with plenty of ammunition leading into next years election. Pity though the MSM are still giving the Gweens a free ride and not analyzing their crazy anti business policies. I could rant all night FFS………………

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  76. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Andrei

    Hope there’s no chocolate wheel at the next church fete. Hope there’s no raffles to fund raise for the kids. Hope the school doesn’t sell those silly bloody pick the score for the All black tests.

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  77. Mags (38 comments) says:

    Pete G – yes Russell has said how he will balance the budget – he’ll just print more money. So simple :)

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  78. Dave Stringer (188 comments) says:

    government should be of laws, not of men.

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  79. Bogusnews (477 comments) says:

    Here’s the link where Stephen Joyce showed the total hypocrisy of Labour and the Greens. The Greens were a support partner to Labour and agreed to the 2001 convention centre.

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  80. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    Forgot that one Mags, it’s hard to keep up with them all. He was also going to take on the US, Chinese, Japanese, Euro, Swiss and GB currencies and lower our exchange rate. But that means the imported printing presses, paper and ink for his money will cost more.

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  81. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    It is true Parliament is sovereign

    sovereignty
    The supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable power by which an independent state is governed and from which all specific political powers are derived; the intentional independence of a state, combined with the right and power of regulating its internal affairs without foreign interference.
    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sovereignty

    The sovereignty of parliament is limited to the state itself and to the subjects or citizens of the state
    It is not sovereign over people in general.

    When parliament implements policy which injures the rights of people that the state does not have authority over, the result is conspiracy, not law.

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  82. Fisiani (1,048 comments) says:

    Vote anything except National in 2014 and you risk the Government from Hell
    A vote for the Greens to “save the environment” would unleash the greatest withdrawal of capital from New Zealand in history. Too many voters are too casual with their vote.
    A vote for Labour would bring in the Greens and the greatest withdrawal of capital from New Zealand in history.
    NO gas, NO coal, NO mining, NO Oil. NO progress, NO International Standard Convention Centre NO Roads NO reason to stay. NO reason to work NO future. NO Hope.

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  83. smttc (763 comments) says:

    One Track, so you think a Labour/Greens government would be in the business of nationalising business convention centres? Don’s talk shit.

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  84. PaulL (6,048 comments) says:

    Parliament is sovereign, and is absolutely able to void this deal. Parliament can also make a law that all men whose name starts with the letter A should be put to the death. NZ has no written constitution, so this can be done with a bare majority.

    The point isn’t whether parliament _can_ do this or not, the point is what would happen if it _did_ do so. You can’t choose to take an action without also choosing to accept the consequences, anyone over about 5 years old should know that (of course, western societies have been trying to insulate people from the consequences of their actions for the last 40 years, so maybe some people don’t know that any more).

    If the National govt do what they plan, and award a contract out to 2043 with specific conditions in it, then the Greens are saying they would break that contract. What are the likely consequences of a belief that contracts with the NZ govt can/would be broken upon change of govt, without compensation? I would say that would have tangible impacts not just in terms of reputation, but in terms of interest rates, exchange rates and foreign investment.

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  85. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Parliament can also make a law that all men whose name starts with the letter A should be put to the death.

    No they can’t. That would be a conspiracy.

    What they would do would be to pass legislation that all male persons whose name starts with the letter A should be put to death. The “law enforcers” would then interpret male person to mean man (or boy).
    If the state had lawful power of life and death over its citizens then the legislation itself wouldn’t be a conspiracy, but in the context of the assumptions made about personhood it would be a conspiracy.

    The nature of sovereignty is incompatible with murder. If a state commits murder it is not a sovereign state, regardless of it’s civil status.

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  86. stigie (1,348 comments) says:

    “Thats right” A very good rant PhilP.

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  87. Nostalgia-NZ (5,283 comments) says:

    I’m surprised Colin Craig hasn’t had anything to say about this. It’s obviously fertile ground in Auckland where pokies are considered a social evil by many in the West and the South. He appears to have let the Greens steal his thunder. I think another pattern is emerging, the Greens float the ‘out there’ policy and thus Labour is ‘allowed’ a compromise position to offer to the broader electorate – although they probably need to be clear and urgent about it. Fairly good politics, ‘stretching’ out the options. A cautionary note on ‘bluffing’ in poker, not to over do it – for the discerning this could appear as a repeat of the ‘nationalising’ power, and so soon after, thus weakening it’s impact. Maybe Labour have reserved a positive aspect to this, or else they’re simply banking on the fact that South and West Auckland didn’t ‘turn out’ last election, but that these sort of issues might stir them from the slumber. Interesting. Also to note, as Key learnt lessons from the Clark notebook, so too might have the Greens and a previously confused Labour hung over from losing a ‘reliable’ part of their vote – Maori.

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  88. Tauhei Notts (1,749 comments) says:

    Meteria Turei and Russel Norman are quite rightly concerned with the extra pokies.
    If you were dumb enough to vote for hoons like those two, you would also be dumb enough to allow your wallet to be vacuumed by a poker machine.
    Me, I’m still getting over that $620 I dropped at Ellerslie on New Year’s Day. I’ll gamble on a well bred horse, rather than a horse with doubtful parentage like Meteria Turei’s doubtful parentage.
    It follows that Meteria and Russel are concerned that people who vote for hoons like them will also waste their dough on pokies. They are concerned about their own voters.

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  89. beautox (422 comments) says:

    You know I almost hope that these clowns get into parliament and fuck the country over. Knowing how utterly brain dead they are, there’s little hope that their policies will help their own constituents – much more likely to help the rich and productive members of society that they seem to hate so much (yet pay their bills), and at the same time completely fuck over the poor, and the environment.

    Just see that their power announcement basically helped “rich” investors and hurt the govt coffers.

    And when they are in power they will hopefully screw the exchange rate down to 35cents or thereabouts – I’m an exporter so that will send me down to the gas-guzzler shop ;)

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  90. KevinH (1,236 comments) says:

    P.S. Auckland gets a world class convention centre, about time. I will leave the pokies debate to the vested parties, with a new convention centre in town tourists and business people have options to enjoy their stay in New Zealand. No longer would Auckland be considered boring by international standards.

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  91. Fentex (1,042 comments) says:

    The Tory Government’s cronyism knows no bounds.

    Labour did the same deal.

    Did they (and what does it matter, it’s the Greens making the threat)? The trade off of some concessions in return for the convention centre looks unseemly to me but not wholly corrupt except for one aspect – SkyCity will be entitled to compensation if there is regulatory change which affects the business over the next 35 years.

    I find that unacceptable. A quid pro quo like increasing number of pokies or some similar permission to expand is not a deal I’d make but is one I could bear.

    But gauranteeing non-inteference beyond a governments term is an attempt to ham-string the democratic process and the authority of properly elected future representatives of the public and I think it quite proper of candidates for that office to promise it’s removal should they be elected.

    It is not a gift granted our governments can offer, they are sovereign precisely for reasons that make offering this gift one they cannot grant. It is beyond any one government to tie the future in such a manner.

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  92. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    This kind of action is something normally associated with third world governments.

    One could say exactly the same of the original deal.

    If the Greens or Labour overturn this, the only investors who need worry are the shonky ones.

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  93. Fentex (1,042 comments) says:

    I notice I wrote a pretty incoherent last sentence – I meant to say the gift of preventing future regulation is not a gift our governments can offer. Each is sovereign and none can tie the hands so thoroughly of their successors and to make such a promise is improper.

    If it was intended that our government could make promises that regulation could not change for 35 years we’d have 35 year terms.

    And do not think I speak in defence of Labour, I’ve no idea if they offered such a gaurantee in any earlier deals. If they did they had no more right to do so.

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  94. PaulL (6,048 comments) says:

    It’s not a guarantee. It’s a contract. If you make a contract with someone, you often also specify breakage penalties for that contract. Many of the contracts I sign at work have those, nothing to do with government. It’s often termed “termination for convenience.”

    In short, Sky City build a convention centre. In return they could have got paid money. Instead of giving them money, the govt gave them a concession, that concession has monetary value. Good deal for govt, instead of handing over cash they just give a concession. If a subsequent govt takes away that concession, then they need to pay the money instead. That’s not a complex concept.

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  95. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    It’s not a guarantee. It’s a contract. If you make a contract with someone, you often also specify breakage penalties for that contract.

    You can’t contract with the sovereign power in the way that you can with other citizens, because it sets the rules and bounds by which contracts are to be enforced. To be able to hold it to contract is to limit its sovereign power, and the only entity that can do that is another sovereign.

    This principle has been self evident to political philosophers since the time of Hobbes.

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  96. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Parliament is sovereign, and could legislate to break a contract the Government has signed without any penalties or compensation.

    Statements like this is further evidence that the NZ body politic is a basket case.

    In general, to contract, the parties must be sui juris. If one of the parties has power over the other then they can’t contract.
    Legislation is not a magic wand that lets you do whatever you like without consequences. If you screw people over by breaking a contract you can expect paypack.

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  97. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    Those homos are behind this afront to right minded fundies everywhere.

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  98. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Bogusnews (380) Says:
    May 13th, 2013 at 6:51 pm
    ———————-

    Doh! The sinking lid policy that was adopted by many councils that attributed to the drop in pokie numbers, was bought in under labour – National took over and benefited from the action.

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  99. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    Judith there are homos charging your street as we speak, grab your good book and repel them!!!!!!!!!!!

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  100. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Elaycee (3,471) Says:
    May 13th, 2013 at 6:05 pm

    ——————————

    You seem to miss the point entirely – the DIA do the checking (there is a hint in that for you which obviously you don’t get)

    Subliminal messaging is more that just what occurs within the program. There are many other cues provides within the environment, but I suspect you already know that. Perhaps you’d like to explain the use of pheromones etc used in the pokie bar air conditioning, just as an example. Fact is, the DIA find what they want to find, and the evidence they don’t look too hard is produced by the small number of prosecutions despite the large number of breaches.

    Believe it or not – the DIA do not like to upset the gaming industry, and are very reluctant to even accept complaints, preferring not to do what the legislation allows them to do.

    It sounds to me like you’ve read the manual, and presume it is followed precisely – what a bubble you must live in.

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  101. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    expat (3,974) Says:
    May 13th, 2013 at 9:43 pm

    ———————————-
    I don’t have a good book – and if I had ‘homos’ in my street, I’d only invite them in for coffee.

    I’m not threatened by people who aren’t the same as me – Must be a very scary world to live, when you are?

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  102. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    In general, to contract, the parties must be sui juris. If one of the parties has power over the other then they can’t contract.

    Yes, that’s basically why you can’t contract with the sovereign. We do let people contract with the sovereign, but they should be aware that these are not like other contracts.

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  103. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Legislation is not a magic wand that lets you do whatever you like without consequences. If you screw people over by breaking a contract you can expect paypack.

    If you screw the people over by bypassing their elected government’s sovereign power, then you can expect payback in the form of pitchfork insertion.

    Your call.

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  104. Griff (8,203 comments) says:

    The drugs the establishment use are lobbyed for by industry that benefit from selling these drugs. This is acceptable by the predominance of users
    the way we rate drugs should be on the harm they do not on the harm dollers they earn

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  105. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    DPF:

    However it is a sure fire way to scare investment away from a country. A major reason why first world countries are first world countries is because of respect for property rights and the fact people can invest in a country without fear that a change of Government may result in their investment or property being confiscated.

    SkyCity’s business is not a normal business, DPF. Their “business” is essentially like that of meth dealers – their cost to the economy due to problem gambling is probably more than that of meth dealers. SkyCity prey on the vulnerable and the addicted, and reap their profits from them.

    The Greens are pro-business, but not that sort of business – neither meth dealers or gambling promoters. I agree that prohibition wrt to addiction does not work, but why give a huge corporate that preys on addiction to benefit its shareholders more opportunity to do so? Would you give that to meth dealers too?

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  106. greenjacket (487 comments) says:

    Fentex: “But gauranteeing non-inteference beyond a governments term is an attempt to ham-string the democratic process and the authority of properly elected future representatives of the public and I think it quite proper of candidates for that office to promise it’s removal should they be elected….It is beyond any one government to tie the future in such a manner.”

    Fentex: The Crown can enter into any contract or settlement it likes. The Crown enters into long-term contracts and guarantees all the time – long-term leases, Treaty settlements with iwi, construction contracts, State pension schemes for retired defence force personnel and police…. Even a dollar is a commercial guarantee in which the Crown guarantees to the bearer one dollar of value in exchange for the note.

    Of course, Parliament is sovereign so it can pass legislation overturning the commercial commitments of the Crown. However, to do so without compensation is unconstitutional for the simple reason that it means that the Crown (who is supposed to uphold the integrity of the market) dishonours its word. Of course, we have an unwritten constitution, but in other countries, such as the USA, it is part of the constitution that the Government must redeem its debts. More obviously, using law to rip up Crown guarantees without compensation sends all sorts of very nasty messages to the marketplace (watch the sharemarket collapse overnight!).

    Of course, this won’t happen – as soon as the Greens-Labour suggest putting a Bill essentially ripping up the contract without compensation, lawyers will have the Crown for breach of contract – at that point, the Greens-Labour will not only be in the position of trying to pass legislation dishonouring a Crown contract, but also in the constitutionally dodgy role of using the law to overturn a decision of the Court.

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  107. Elaycee (4,410 comments) says:

    Judith, based on your efforts tonight, it is very clear I know a hell of a lot more about the Industry than you do.

    I have already provided you with a suggestion – if you think you know the location of just one machine that is telling you (subliminally) that you just have to play it, then do tell the DIA. And let us know here so we can share the laugh. Because I know for sure that subliminal messages are NOT programmed into gaming machine EPROMs.

    And now you claim pheromones are added to the air conditioning systems of ‘pokie bars’… your statement suggests you know of it happening in NZ. Can you please advise just one outlet in NZ where such practice occurs? Be sure to also name the Charitable Trust that operates the machines. Or is ‘pheromones in the air conditioning’ just another of your fantasy reasons why you don’t like machines? Besides, do you realise that the air conditioning that supplies a ‘pokie bar’ also supplies the total environment and not ‘only’ the gaming area? Have you told the DIA about your theory – or have they also laughed you out of the place? Is that why you don’t like the DIA?

    You’ve made it clear you don’t like gaming machines – and that’s your right. But don’t try and defend your personal view by making shit up – it does you no favours.

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  108. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    @greenjacket 10:05 pm

    More obviously, using law to rip up Crown guarantees without compensation sends all sorts of very nasty messages to the marketplace (watch the sharemarket collapse overnight!).

    That is why the Greens are giving notice of intent now re the SkyCity dirty deal, just as they did with MRP before the share float. So investors and the companies concerned know the potential risk in advance, and can make their decisions accordingly.

    I agree that springing a law change with no notice when in Government after a deal has been done would be a bad look, but this is not what the Greens are doing. They are being completely transparent about their intentions when they are part of Government, and putting affected corporates and current and potential investors on notice of that so they can do their own risk assessments in advance.

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  109. Than (500 comments) says:

    @toad – I agree it is good the Greens are stating their policies up front.

    They are giving voters a simple choice. They can go with National, and have consistent law and contracts that will be honoured. Or they can have a Labour/Green government, where law and contracts mean nothing and everything is up to the whim of the government of the day.

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  110. PaulL (6,048 comments) says:

    @toad: stating intent up front is a little helpful. But it still doesn’t mean it’s OK to cancel contracts signed by the government without compensation, and doing so would still have consequences.

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  111. Elaycee (4,410 comments) says:

    toad:

    their cost to the economy ………..

    Bwahahaaaaaaaa…. Why weren’t you do worried about the ‘cost to the economy’ when the Red/Gween team announced the policy of economic sabotage re nationalising Mighty River Power? Or doesn’t $400 Million count these days!

    Hypocrisy is alive and well in the Gween house.

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  112. CharlieBrown (1,028 comments) says:

    Its John Keys fault that we have such extreme left parties so popular in NZ now. With him cementing national to be firmly on the center(if not left of center) on the economic spectrum, the only space available to Labour is further left. Because of John Key, we are going to have to wait for the shit to hit the fan and drastic measures to take place for NZ to make any progress.

    And because of John Key, we are probably going to have maori seats forever in a day. John Key is NZ’s Neville Chamberlain, famous for doing nothing but appease and letting things go from bad to worse.

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  113. Griff (8,203 comments) says:

    Haters and wreakers
    Waste money spitefully on an ideological point

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  114. LePeche (1 comment) says:

    Experts on economic development say a Convention Centre is a good idea and experts on problem gambling say these relaxations on gambling restrictions will create more social problems. These are two very separate, unrelated issues. It is so alarming to me that our current government is literally selling a law change to the highest bidder. This is not a political stance on my part. Regardless of your colour, in principle this is the most alarming thing I have seen from a government and it makes me mad.

    Regardless of your political leaning, your views on a new Convention Centre or your views on gambling law, surely none of us can be comfortable with the idea that the government can sell law changes to the highest bidder!

    If the Greens repealing this law when they are elected results in scaring away overseas investment all the better I say. We do not want the kind of investment that expects laws to be changed without a debate on what the laws are about!

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  115. Bogusnews (477 comments) says:

    Fentex:

    The reason why the 2001 sky deal matters is because the Greens were support and confidence partners for Labour and agreed with the deal back then.

    For them now to be back tracking on a National led deal is utter hypocrisy.

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  116. Nookin (3,473 comments) says:

    Winston is on TV3. Is he pissed? This early?

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  117. Chris2 (770 comments) says:

    Hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders paid for and were issued Lifetime Driver Licences back in the mid 1980’s but some years later another Government cancelled them all and replaced them with what we have today – licences that have to be renewed.

    Sky City can not be immune from the will of future Parliaments.

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  118. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    If you screw the people over by bypassing their elected government’s sovereign power, then you can expect payback in the form of pitchfork insertion.

    Sovereign power is limited, it is not universal. It does not include the right to breach a contract.
    Parliamentary “sovereignty” is a fraud, it was built on the lie that Maori ceded their sovereignty without reservation.

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  119. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders paid for and were issued Lifetime Driver Licences back in the mid 1980′s but some years later another Government cancelled them all and replaced them with what we have today – licences that have to be renewed.

    Licences are issued by a competent authority, the NZ parliament never had constitutional authority to issue licences for ordinary use of public roads. Ordinary use of a public road is one of the liberties of English common law.
    But when parliament lies about the nature of common law, what do you expect?

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  120. duggledog (1,589 comments) says:

    Toad @ 9.56 pm

    ‘The greens are pro business but not that sort of business… meth dealers’

    Hate to be a pain but on that, weren’t the greens the only party to vote to have meth categorized as being a Class B drug?

    Making them effectively pro-meth

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  121. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Elaycee (3,473) Says:
    May 13th, 2013 at 10:20 pm
    ———————–
    (Try two of the bars in Station Village, for starters!)

    You talk nothing but the DIA mantra – you do it well. However, that is all you can produce – the talk that they and the industry like people to believe.

    Firstly, if you are so sure your ‘random number generator’ is the only process by which the machines operate, how do you explain the ‘easter egg’ (also know by other terms) which is included in the program and determines when a certain sequence of play (varying from the type of machine) will payout the maximum payment?
    This overrides the RNG. (Easter eggs are placed by the programmers to allow them to test their systems to ensure payout can occur – it is a highly guarded matter, with the programmers under contractual obligation to protect the integrity of the function) There have been at least seven cases in NZ alone where the ‘easter egg’ has been cracked – the particular type of machine being withdrawn from play immediately it was detected by the normal monitoring process of each machine. For obvious reasons the industry and the DIA do not advertise the presence of ‘easter eggs’ within the GMs.

    Secondly, the law prescribes that each machine must payout a certain percentage of the takings in prizes – if the system was completely random, then payouts would be entirely to chance and may not meet the legal obligation. Therefore, the RNG is also overridden to ensure this requirement is meet.

    Thirdly, perhaps you’d like to explain how if it is only the mindless who lack self control that become habitual players of pokie machines, we have two current sitting MP’s (one of whom has ‘self-trespassed) and the other of whom has twice, that I know of, had to be dragged away from the machines to attend to matters in house? Does that mean MP’s are mindless creatures, or perhaps that these machines have such addictive qualities that even the wary are not a match for them?

    Perhaps you could try to override your ‘mantra’ and actually look at the real situation.

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  122. duggledog (1,589 comments) says:

    LePeche @ 11.15 – so you’re French, obviously, so I’ll have to explain.

    The Government is doing anything and everything it can to keep this champagne on a beer budget ship afloat, with the Warner’s deal, this Sky City deal etc etc to pay for the things we enjoy right now but won’t forever.

    What was the social welfare bill last year again – was it 20 thousand million dollars? Where will the money come from will we print it?

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  123. Scott1 (579 comments) says:

    One has to wonder what foreign companies might think of a country passing a law to restrict economic activity then selling back the rights to have that economic activity in exchange for building a convention center. That is the sort of thing the government could do in any sector to raise a little extra cash for a convention center…

    Or – governments could (of parliament was not willing to breach contracts) do it purely for political reasons – and actively lock in policy directions via contracts with private parties – for example the greens could sign a deal with a green energy producer that greatly advantaged them in order to promote that type of energy production and then claim that that deal ran out to 2050, maybe a quid pro quo for a convention center somewhere else.

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  124. hj (7,067 comments) says:

    They call it freedom. You remember freedom! Sure you do!!
    …………………………………………………………………………..
    A lot of you want want freedom to trample…. it works for you.
    You want to own 1000 properties based on clever trading and benefiting from asset inflation (rather than producing anything new). You want a thousand working families to prop you up and when reminded of social responsibilities you run and hide behind “markets”.
    You Are………National! the rent seekers party.

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  125. Redbaiter (9,662 comments) says:

    “National! the rent seekers party.”

    Helen Klark owns six houses or maybe even more.

    At the same time as she enthusiastically progressed government policies that raised house prices.

    But that’s OK isn’t it hj?

    BECAUSE SHE IS ON YOUR SIDE OF THE POLITICAL FENCE.

    Hypocritical commie jerk.

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  126. hj (7,067 comments) says:

    duggledog says:

    The Government is doing anything and everything it can to keep this champagne on a beer budget ship afloat, with the Warner’s deal, this Sky City deal etc etc to pay for the things we enjoy right now but won’t forever.
    ……………..

    What a load o b/s . The Government completely ignored the Savings Working Group, because it wasn’t the advice it’s powerful backers wanted to hear.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/4622459/Government-policies-blamed-for-house-prices

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  127. greenjacket (487 comments) says:

    Toad wrote in reply: That is why the Greens are giving notice of intent now re the SkyCity dirty deal, just as they did with MRP before the share float.

    Usual dishonesty I now expect from the Greens. You did not go to my point that a Parliament that rips up the settlements of the Crown without compensation dishonours the Crown guarantee. That is deeply unconstitutional.
    So the Greens give “notice of intent” (a pompous phrase) to rip up a contract – it is still ripping up a contract signed in good faith between the Crown and another party.

    I appreciate it that you may not like what the Government is doing, but they are the legitimate Government and have every right to enter into commercial contracts that the everyone expects will be honoured by future Governments. An example is when Michale Cullen bought the railways and it was a really bad deal. But the next (National) Government still honoured the deal, even though it was a really bad deal.

    Toad: being dishonest in your arguments is not a way of winning over people to your cause.

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  128. hj (7,067 comments) says:

    BECAUSE SHE [Helen Clark] IS ON YOUR SIDE OF THE POLITICAL FENCE
    ……………..
    Not true Redbaiter.

    She was arrogant and opinionated, famous for the dismissive response.

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  129. hj (7,067 comments) says:

    @ Redbaiter why don’t you defend the “rent seeker” claim rather than calling me a “commie”?

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  130. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    @Bogusnews 5:50 am

    The reason why the 2001 sky deal matters is because the Greens were support and confidence partners for Labour and agreed with the deal back then.

    Wrong. The 2001 decision was made by the Casino Control Authority (which happened to be chaired by Judith Collins), not by the Labour Government. In 2003 Labour changed the law so this could not happen again. National are now undermining that, by effectively reversing the 2003 law change that capped casino gambling opportunities.

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  131. Nookin (3,473 comments) says:

    Toad

    That being the case, why did Clark applaud the deal?

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  132. Elaycee (4,410 comments) says:

    @Judith: Your effort at 7.56am contains so many errors, it’s hard to work out where to start….

    You state there are pheromones on the air conditioning systems of TWO BARS at the Station Village in Railway Ave, Lower Hutt! Wow! So what was the result of the complaint you laid with the DIA over your allegation that pheromones were in the air conditioning system at Station Village and they were compelling you to play their machines? What sort of pheromones were being used? Do you know? Do tell…. :D

    Your suggestions and claims regarding RNG programming, are total bollocks. The machines deliberately contain Easter Eggs? Bwahahahaaaaaaa….. what fantasy! Did you get that off the Internet? Clearly you don’t know what an ‘Easter Egg’ is – because it’s actually a rare fault that all programmers and regulators do their utmost to avoid. It’s actually a line of code embedded by a rogue programmer that allows players ‘in the know’ to trigger payouts. But such codes can be detected now by smart software (the same software used by the DIA). So to suggest an Easter Egg is deliberately programmed into a game (and is approved by regulators) is total bollocks.

    FYI: A gaming machine programme is all about maths (numbers). The RNG uses an algorithm to generate number options every millisecond. The machine is required to deliver the correct odds over 100,000 spins. Not 100 spins, not 1000 spins but over 100000 spins. And they have a specified RTP. Each number translates to what is on the screen – and that could be a miss or a win. (Did you feel my subliminal message when you read that?). Because the RNG is RANDOM! And do you know that a player can hit a jackpot the very next spin after one has already been won? It can – because the numbers generated are RANDOM!

    People play gaming machines for a variety of reasons. It is their choice whether they do so or not. It is also their choice whether they spend money at the TAB, Lotto, Housie or donate it to someone. But you forget a key fact: It is their money and it is their right to spend it as they see fit. Now, are you going to provide the name of the MP who you suggest ‘had to be dragged away’ from playing machines? No? Thought not.

    Your dislike of gaming machines is obvious…. along with your lack of understanding how they actually work.

    As usual, you have a habit of not letting the facts get in the way of your story.

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  133. Manolo (14,086 comments) says:

    Judith, you are a deranged conspiracy-theorist who knows fuck all of what you are mumbling about.
    Keep your mouth firmly shut.

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  134. unaha-closp (1,180 comments) says:

    35 year contract to purchase all power generated by a windfarm at a price that makes it profitable.

    35 year contract to a recycling station to handle all inorganic waste.

    35 year contract to the railways to transport all government stock.

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  135. beautox (422 comments) says:

    I laugh when I hear people use the term “problem gambling”. Let’s get this straight…pokies are a tax on the lack of math skills. Basically a tax on stupidity. They are an physical expression of “fools and their money are soon separated”

    So, just as I am a non-smoker and love to hear about ciggy tax going up, I also love to hear about new pokies.

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  136. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Elaycee (3,474) Says:
    May 14th, 2013 at 9:25 am
    ———————————-

    Like I said, the mantra is strong in you.

    Of course you’d deny the ‘easter egg’ by stating its a fault – despite it being perpetuated deliberately in every subsequent model, and never having been got rid of. Obviously the industry does not want people going in search of them.

    Of course the DIA and the gaming industry don’t want people to know exactly how the machines work. The DIA has a vested interest as the govt representative.
    Of course you’d rubbish everything I say – that is how the industry works – behind a veil of deceit. The Charitable trust and pokie operation system in NZ is corrupt (I wonder what sort of role you have in that?)

    Everything you say has been said using words by Bruce Robertson – almost word for word – quite amazing.

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  137. Fentex (1,042 comments) says:

    It’s not a guarantee. It’s a contract

    You can’t contract with the sovereign power in the way that you can with other citizens

    Legislation is not a magic wand that lets you do whatever you like without consequences. If you screw people over by breaking a contract you can expect paypack.

    This is why this deal over-extends any one government authority. Contracting with a NZ government, or indeed with anyone within NZ’s legislative domain, is always an act of trust that successive governments will not legislate a change.

    And each government knows it cannot over-turn contracts willy nilly as the cost of destruction of trust would be unacceptable to the public trying to get on with it’s business.

    The sum of these considerations is that among all the possible deals, corrupt or not, a government has authority to make promising to prevent changes in regulation beyond it’s term is not one of them. It would be a contract outside their authority to make.

    The 35 year duration stands out. It’s a promise no government can, and therefore should not make, but on a short term the risk of it’s being broken diminishes. We may not see significant changes to gambling laws in the next six years so whether the promise is good or not might be moot on that timeline.

    But it certainly isn’t on a 35 year timeline.

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  138. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Elaycee

    P.S. your continued argument of randomness does not explain how the legal amount of return is given – or the ‘easter egg’. If it was left to chance, then there is a risk of the machine paying all in returns, or not returning enough. The fact that the ‘easter egg’ exists is proof enough that the system is not solely random.

    Smoke and mirrors by you! Keep up your mantra!

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  139. Fentex (1,042 comments) says:

    35 year contract to purchase all power generated by a windfarm at a price that makes it profitable.

    35 year contract to a recycling station to handle all inorganic waste.

    35 year contract to the railways to transport all government stock.

    Exactly. No one should support a argument that gifts politicians temporarily empowered excessive authority that extends beyond their terms remit, because you’re gifting it to the next and all future governments.

    And they do not give up power once granted.

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  140. Elaycee (4,410 comments) says:

    @Judith: You burst on here claiming to know about gaming machines. When I pointed out the numerous instances where you wrote crap, you quickly shifted to new topics, including these:

    First, you accuse two ‘pokie bars’ in the Station Village Lower Hutt of using pheromones in their air conditioning. So I asked what happened when you reported this to the DIA. But you’ve gone strangely silent……. (By the way, it appears all three gaming machine venues at Station Village are operated by the same Charitable Trust and I’m sure they will be keenly interested in your allegations). Have you complained to them?

    Second, you harp on about subliminal messages – and I have debunked that theory because it is, frankly, absurd. And illegal.

    Third, you go off about ‘Easter Eggs’ – and as I’ve already explained, the term dates back to the 1980s and refers to a very rare event resulting from an illegal line of code being embedded in a programme by a rogue code cutter. But the testing software today can spot this a mile away and therefore your suggestion it’s happening in machines being used today in NZ (and that the DIA somehow allows it), is equally absurd. In fact, it is conspiracy bollocks.

    But still you persist… this time about player odds. I have patiently explained how an RNG works – the algorithm / the RTP etc. And how the odds are monitored regularly as part of compliance. Unfortunately, as you still don’t understand the principle of calculating odds, I can’t explain it any clearer. But feel free to call the DIA and lodge a complaint and provide the supporting evidence. What’s that? You have none? Pffttt….

    And now (in your latest brainfart) you try and draw similarities between my own writing and terminology used by Bruce Robertson of the Hospitality Association. Has it ever occurred to you that we may write similar things because we actually know a little about the Industry and therefore we know what we’re talking about? No? Though not.

    For the record: In previous comments on KB (when you posted as Judith / Jinny / Ginny etc), you accused me of posting certain comments on TradeMe – and, as I made it very clear at the time, your guesswork was 100% wrong. Just as your guesswork today is 100% wide of the mark…. No, I am not Bruce Robertson.

    But I suppose it could be worse: I could be labelled as some nutbar who writes crap about thinks they simply don’t understand. And that’s where you come in, Judith / Jinny / Ginny / whatever you call yourself this week.

    So, unless you have something new to contribute (based on fact, not fantasy), perhaps you should take on board Manolo’s advice (9.31am). He says it all…. :D

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  141. Manolo (14,086 comments) says:

    Elaycee, do no twaste your time with Judith: a fly has more brains than her.

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  142. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Elaycee (3,475) Says:
    May 14th, 2013 at 12:16 pm
    ——————————

    Strange that isn’t it – complaints were made and ignored.

    I’ve explained to you I don’t know how many times that about the identity of Jinny – (never used Ginny) and why I can’t access it, and as you will note, and I am sure DPF will be able to confirm, I have never logged on with it as long as I’ve been using this new identity – but clearly you don’t remember that because you would rather use it to shut me up. Prats like you don’t intimidate me, so keep trying.

    The rest of what you say is crap – typical garbage promoted to draw attention away from what really happens with the pokie industry and the DIA – I wouldn’t expect anything but from you – there is of course a huge financial benefit in making sure your ‘explanation’ remains the most promoted one.

    You still don’t provide any explanation but ‘chance’ and yet the machines manage to pay out what they are legally supposed to do – something that cannot occur unless the programming allows the manipulation for that to happen – therefore, it is not just chance!

    The testing software ‘tests’ the system – of course it does – a system that has to allow the ability to access a programmed ability to payout, in order to test its performance. You want us to believe they test the machines by playing endless hours to make sure they eventually pay out the exactly required percentage of winnings they are legislated to – oh please!

    You are pathetic – same mantra over and over – all supporting the same excuses presented by those who benefit the most from the system.

    Try applying a bit of commonsense – the system has to be testable – therefore the ability to force a payout is programmed within it. I understand your need to deny its existence, it has cost and has the potential to impede on the gaming industry’s profits. This conversation will continue to go round in circles because the truth is too damaging to the industry and the DIA.

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  143. Manolo (14,086 comments) says:

    C’mon Judith, now tell us you know who shot JFK, the Moon landings are a hoax and you have visited Area 51.
    Yours is a pathetic, enfeebled mind.

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  144. Lance (2,721 comments) says:

    @Judith
    Do you think the moon landings were faked and 911 was an inside job?

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  145. Lance (2,721 comments) says:

    Bugger
    Manolo beat me to it.

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  146. Elaycee (4,410 comments) says:

    Judith: Thank you for confirming you haven’t got a clue. Not even the slightest:

    …the truth is too damaging to the industry and the DIA.

    Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

    So, in your mind the Gaming Industry is really an awful conspiracy between the various manufacturers / the Charitable Trusts / The DIA / The Casinos / Bruce Robertson of HANZ / The Minister / all Pubs and Clubs across NZ / and no doubt others??? And pheromones are being used in venues. And player RTP odds are rigged. And red lights are used. Plus subliminal messages.

    And only you know all about it.

    OMG! :(

    PS: I think I know why you haven’t received a response from the DIA to your various complaints ….. :D

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  147. redeye (630 comments) says:

    Manolo you forgot to mention a certain birth certificate. Oh wait…

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  148. hj (7,067 comments) says:

    ” Harrigan has analysed, among other things, what he calls “losses disguised as winnings” on pokie machines.

    When a player puts in, for example, $3.75 and wins $2.25 the machine lights up and gives graphic and sound rewards, but actually there is no win, just a $1.50 loss.

    His research has found the number of losses disguised as winnings is 180 per hour and that 18 per cent of spins are losses disguised as wins – 68 per cent are just losses.

    Dr Sullivan says each spin ranges from 3.5 to 5 seconds and there are regular “near misses”. When people see what they think is a near miss they think “I’m getting close”.

    They are not, because each spin is random, but even when a problem gambler has lost all their money, he says, they will still sit there staring at the machine.

    The total concentration involved in watching the spinning and winning and free turns means not only do other problems disappear but so does time.

    People will say they thought they were only playing there for an hour but in reality, five hours had gone past.

    Sullivan finds it hard to fathom how Key could consider a deal with Sky City when he has a Ministry of Health and a Department of Internal Affairs working in accordance with the Gambling Act of 2003.

    He points out that when the Act was passed it was recognised around the world as forward-thinking because instead of looking at gambling as a way to support the economy, it started looking from a harm minimisation point of view, and with more controls.

    “And then suddenly we get it reversed around by this promise to go and say ‘well the economy of scale says that we should reward you and let’s forget about the problems that come out of that’.””
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10800367

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  149. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    As Whaleoil says pokies are a tax on the stupid. If people want to gamble they have the right to so leave them to it….and don’t socialize the consequences…..ram them home hard to the individuals concerned. And if they end up as beggars on the street then that’s tough….its what they deserve.

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  150. OneTrack (3,237 comments) says:

    Toad -“The Greens are pro-business”

    Pull the other one. Its got bells on.

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