Drury vs Greens

June 13th, 2013 at 1:00 pm by David Farrar

Adam Bennett at NZ Herald reports:

Green Party co-leader has accused Prime Minister John Key of conspiring to establish a surveillance state in New Zealand by encouraging American data-mining company Palantir to set up shop here.

Well that is an 11 on a 0 to 10 hysteria scale.

The comments prompted a savage response from , a business associate of Palantir co-founder , with Mr Drury labelling the attack another example of economic vandalism.

The Greens – working to destroy jobs since 1999. Now actively campaigning against high tech companies being in New Zealand.

Dr Norman later tweeted: “When crony govt meets surveillance state – John Key appoints Peter Thiel’s Palantir to spy on NZers”.

That drew an angry response from Mr Drury who tweeted: “Don’t be w***ers”, and followed that up with “Hey Greens. Cheating NZ out of $200m on Mighty River Power now spinning this rubbish. Please put NZ ahead of yourselves.”

He said the Greens were “ruining relationships and/by insinuating cronyism is vandalism. Politics in NZ is getting nasty. Lift the game.”

Basically just another Muldoonist attack from Nasty Norman.

Suggesting Peter Thiel has ill-will against NZ, and is part of an operation to spy on us is churlish to say the least. He personally donated $1 million to the Christchurch earthquake appeal fund and has a long history of philanthropy – including the Committee to Protect Journalists which promotes the right of journalists to report news without fear of reprisal.

Tags: , ,

49 Responses to “Drury vs Greens”

  1. lazza (381 comments) says:

    Mmmm … methinks Okker Norman may have just sunk the Lab/Greens last hope of forming a coalition Gummint!

    Vote: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. Archer (208 comments) says:

    Yeah but DPF a reporter’s right to report the news only applies when it is a leftwing reporter… geez!

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. Rich Prick (1,705 comments) says:

    I hope the aliens don’t return to retrieve their probe, Norman is comedy.

    Vote: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. Manolo (13,780 comments) says:

    The Australian whinger, comrade Norman, should be deported immediately.

    Vote: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. peterwn (3,273 comments) says:

    I thought this was just the sort of industry the Greens wanted. But presumably since all technological devices and systems are potentially prone to surveillance, the Greens would now want to impose a moratorium (ie ban) on all such industries. Forget Novopay, school secretaries can calculate teachers’ pay on an abacus and snail-mail off a written requisition for cheques which will then be processed through the bank books by clerks standing at tall desks using quill pens.

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

    Unpopular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 36 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. lastmanstanding (1,297 comments) says:

    Agree 100% with other posters. Wussell is busy nailing down the coffin that was to be the Labour/Greens/ NZ First/Mana Gumint come November 2014.

    Keep up the good work Wussell.

    What with Gillard or the other side of the ditch and Fumble Mouth on this side Labor/Labour sure is set to be occupying the Opposition benches for a loooong time.

    Vote: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. Manolo (13,780 comments) says:

    What bullshit, toad. Your gang of Luddites will ban roads, motor vehicles and anything that favours progress.
    The Red Green Party is an enemy of New Zealand. Your “leader” Norman epitomises that attitude.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 21 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. dishy (248 comments) says:

    I can see that I was jumping the gun when I suggested, earlier in the week, that Norman might have had an epiphany, and come to the view that talking sense may be more politically expedient than continuing to spout paranoid, unresearched, offensive nonsense. I withdraw.

    Norman evidently has as little judgement as he has pride. His contributions to discussions relating to the running of this country are as worthless as repeated, untrue claims by cheeky schoolboys that some bloke’s fly is undone.

    Vote: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. tvb (4,422 comments) says:

    Is there any investment the Greens support. Is there any new project that creates jobs the Greens will support. It seems to me they will find a reason to oppose everything that is done by the private sector that creates jobs.

    Vote: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    You left out the best bit DPF:

    State Owned Enterprises Minister Tony Ryall said Dr Norman suffered from paranoia and called him the Chicken Little of New Zealand politics.

    Chicken Little, the chem trails are falling…

    Vote: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. Peter (1,712 comments) says:

    Go back to the terminally wet FrogBlog, Toad. A place where you can control the message.

    Norman needs to stop and consider the big picture. Do you think, maybe, just perhaps, the big picture is that Thiel does good for New Zealand? Should he be the subject of this sort of speculation from a politician? What good does that do New Zealand, Toad?

    Vote: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. Cunningham (844 comments) says:

    toad (3,559) Says:

    “whereas the Nats’ only jobs vision seems to be dig and drill”

    What a load of crap toad. There are many industries doing well including the ICT sector which is expanding at a good pace. NZ is now starting to reap the benefits of everything the government has done over the past 5 years and instead of proposing to build on this momentum, your party (along with Labour) are intent on implementing radical policies which are proven to be damaging (printing money, nationalising the power industry). No wonder they get so little respect!

    Vote: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    What bullshit, DPF. The Greens are all in favour of high tech – that is an essential part of the jobs future the Greens see (whereas the Nats’ only jobs vision seems to be dig and drill).

    What the Greens oppose is foreign companies with NSA links contracting to the GCSB to data-mine the communications of New Zealanders. And that is what this strongly stinks of.

    Toad, normally your contributions are much better reasoned but “stinks of”? Are you kidding? What it looks like is “some rich American is involved with something we’re not really interested in understanding so lets use this for our continued personal attacks on John Key”.

    You say the Greens are in favour of high tech but they’ve just personally attacked one of the major contributors to Wellingon’s biggest success story since TradeMe and Weta. If potential future government ministers are going to attack significant investors in high tech NZ, do you think they’re more or less likely to invest again? Maybe the Green’s will just nationalise Xero, Trademe or Weta…

    Vote: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. Shunda barunda (2,983 comments) says:

    The consistent problem with the extremist environmental movement is their attitude to anything they can’t personally control or didn’t personally come up with.

    And when it comes to outfits like the Greens and forest and bird, if something isn’t useful to them politically, they are simply not interested, or more usually, blatantly hostile.

    It’s incredibly frustrating and incredibly destructive.

    Vote: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. m@tt (629 comments) says:

    “Now actively campaigning against high tech companies being in New Zealand”
    “Well that is an 11 on a 0 to 10 hysteria scale.”

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. lastmanstanding (1,297 comments) says:

    labrator Don’t put ideas into Wussells head. He just might decide if he ever does God help us become the Min of Fin to legislate to compulsory acquire the shares in Xero Trademe etc and at a price HE determines NOT the up to then market price.

    Remember in 2007 the Klark/Kullen government denied me the opportunity of selling my AIA shares to a Canadian pension fund for $3.65 a piece and since them AIA shares have very slowly crept up to just recently break the $3 mark.

    So the Klark/Kullen move was just a reverse of the potential Wussell move.

    Remember Wussell was a former member of certain organization whose stated objectives was to acquire the means of production etc etc and this extends to shares in what he/they would describe in their legislation as ‘ Companies of nation strategic importance”

    Hell Ive probably just written the piece of legislation Wussell had in mind Damn it

    Vote: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. hannity (152 comments) says:

    Yeah Porkey ,who according to Dpf never gets personal, has climbed down from his Stalin fruit loop Bs .when referring to Norman ,

    He stuck to ‘Noddy’ yesterday, in question time

    Was Key even born , when ‘Noddy’ was around ?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 15 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. Simon (724 comments) says:

    greens going about cronyism but in the same breath spewing about green jobs. Green jobs are only going to happen with the state underwriting chosen indusrties which is the very definition of cronyism.

    Vote: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. OneTrack (3,107 comments) says:

    Simon, anything is OK when the left does it. It’s for “the cause”

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. s.russell (1,642 comments) says:

    The only thread of logic I can find in this Labour/Green behaviour is this:

    They know that the public are cynical about politicians, and have seen that Winston does really well when attacking alleged corruption, cronyism, pig troughing etc.

    So they have figured their best bet for damaging National is to try the corruption angle: convince an already cynical public that National is working for the favour of the few, and paint themselves as saints of purity. I think that is a common thread in a lot of what Labour and the Greens have been saying over the last month or so.

    Needless to say, it is a rather risky strategy, given the threadbare nature of their claims, the stinky stuff in their own cupboards, and the damage they are doing to the country by trying to undermine its international reputation.

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. Colville (2,268 comments) says:

    It takes real skill to hammer nails into your own coffin lid while you are inside the coffin, so big Ups to Wussell for that!

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. wreck1080 (3,917 comments) says:

    he he, computer geeks tend to be mostly harmless .

    More interested in the latest way to code an algorithm than world domination.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. mandk (993 comments) says:

    Toad,
    You are naive. The Greens agenda is fundamentally revolutionary, albeit dressed-up to appear as nature-loving. High employment and prosperity are inimical to their goals, so they will oppose any kind of enterprise as a matter of course.

    Vote: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. exile (34 comments) says:

    Opposing Green objections to the surveillance state is all well and good, but sooner or later, Labour/Green is going to be in charge of that apparatus.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. Yoza (1,875 comments) says:

    “… and has a long history of philanthropy – including the Committee to Protect Journalists which promotes the right of journalists to report news without fear of reprisal.”

    When NATO bombed RTS (Radio and Television Serbia) CPJ refused to add the journalists killed in that attack in its annual list of murdered journalists on the spurious grounds those journalists were not reporting events but manufacturing propaganda. It is hardly philanthropy if you are giving funds to an organisation which appears to sympathise with imperial US aggression.

    Thiel should piss off back to the US along with his dirty money.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 14 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. Komata (1,191 comments) says:

    Toad:

    re: ‘high tech – that is an essential part of the jobs future the Greens’

    ‘High tech’ indicates the use of computers, wire, wireless, etc, etc.

    It may have escaped your notice but the things that are ued for ‘Hi tech’ are ALL made with ‘bits’ that ultimately come out of the ground.

    Yet you also claim that ‘Nats’ only jobs vision seems to be dig and drill’..

    So, since ‘Hi tech’ requres metals and plastics (from oil) that originate in the ground (and DO require ‘digging and drilling ‘ to obtain them), how DO the greens intend to obtain them, given your comment about the Nats?

    Thanks.

    Please enlighten us. Thanks

    Vote: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    Hey Clint, what do we think of Peter Thiel?

    Thiel should piss off back to the US along with his dirty money.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    Anyone who thinks the Greens are about economic development is deluding themselves.

    [Economic] Growth is a dirty word to them.

    So it’s not surprising at all that i. Russel leapt upon prism sensationalism and ii. tweeted what he did.

    Turns out prism is about as dastardly as the police getting a warrant to search your house.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    Anyone who thinks the Greens are about economic development is deluding themselves.

    [Economic] Growth is a dirty word to them.

    So it’s not surprising at all that i. Russel leapt upon prism sensationalism and ii. tweeted what he did.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Toad

    “And that is what this strongly stinks of.”

    Not a great choice of words given that your luddite party recently held a group love in (aka a party conference) where deodorant was banned.

    Vote: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. kiwi in america (2,454 comments) says:

    Toad
    You’ve got zero evidence that Thiel’s company has done anything even remotely approximating your leader’s latest conspiracy theory. Norman seized on the NSA leak and resurrected that great Green hoary chestnut of the Waihopai spy base near Blenheim. Any GCSB connection to the NSA however legitimate or legal or governed by relevant NZ law is now deemed to be part of the NSA’s US data mining without a shred of evidence to support such inferences. It’s conspiracy theory by association and a cheap shot by Norman as he foams at the mouth over anything American. The fact that a private sector company gets caught in the cynical Muldoonist political crossfire is irrelevant. Toad mumbles that the Greens support high tech innovation and yet their pathological aversion to capitalism leads them to policies and attacks that will keep much needed start up capital well away from NZ. Capital is mobile and can make money in jurisdictions where even opposition politicians realize that you don’t kill geese that lay golden eggs. Norman’s red ideology is now showing though his green veneer – with committed hard lefties its always the same – nice business you got there, shame that it doesn’t comport with our narrow list of approved activities that will benefit the common good as decided by the green commissars.

    Vote: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. OneTrack (3,107 comments) says:

    “Opposing Green objections to the surveillance state is all well and good, but sooner or later, Labour/Green is going to be in charge of that apparatus.”

    Then they will have a sudden change of heart and ramp the surveillance up big time, just like all the other communist governments we have seen over the years.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. Keeping Stock (10,342 comments) says:

    toad said

    What the Greens oppose is foreign companies with NSA links contracting to the GCSB to data-mine the communications of New Zealanders. And that is what this strongly stinks of.

    Put up or shut up toad. Leave the unsubstantiated allegations to Winston Peters.

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. Peter (1,712 comments) says:

    Personal attacks. Unsubstantiated innuendo. Baseless allegations.

    How very Muldoonist.

    Hop along, Toad. Preferably across a multi-laned highway.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. Yoza (1,875 comments) says:

    Keeping Stock (8,873) Says:
    June 13th, 2013 at 7:17 pm “toad said
    What the Greens oppose is foreign companies with NSA links contracting to the GCSB to data-mine the communications of New Zealanders. And that is what this strongly stinks of.
    Put up or shut up toad. Leave the unsubstantiated allegations to Winston Peters.”

    It is not Toad that should be worried.

    Wall Street Journal, September 2009:“One of the venture firms that rejected Palantir’s overtures steered the company to In-Q-Tel, a nonprofit venture-capital firm established by the CIA a decade ago to tap innovation that could be used for intelligence work. … In the past two years, Palantir’s work in Washington has expanded from eight pilot programs to more than 50 projects, executives say. The Australian government is now a client, and the NSA is eyeing Palantir, … “

    Forbes:“According to a report at the tech news site Tech Herald, data intelligence firms including Palantir, Berico and HBGary were all recruited by the law firm Hunton & Williams to propose ways of subverting or sabotaging WikiLeaks on behalf of Bank of America. Those plans were found in the hacked email account of HBGary executive Aaron Barr, after he was targeted by the loose hacker group Anonymous …”

    It doesn’t take much digging to connect Palantir with the CIA, which was funding companies involved specifically with data mining. The leap that the NSA is using a data-mining system that appears very similar to that which Palantir developed for the CIA, with CIA funding, is not a long leap to take. Defending the likes of Thiel will become more difficult the further the NSA PRISM scandal unwinds.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 13 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. RF (1,399 comments) says:

    Toad and his soap dodger mates from the smelly party should wake up and realise that their destiny is to remain in permanent oppisition with the snafu party.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. kiwi in america (2,454 comments) says:

    Yozza
    The operative word in your screed is leap. Leaping to conclusions – it’s stock in trade for conspiracy theorists in general and mothers milk to committed Marxists like you. It comes as no surprise that Russell Norman would leap to similar conclusions given his Marxist leanings earlier in his life . Of course there is the assumption that any surveillance by America is bad whereas the extensive surveillance (electronic or otherwise) by the former Soviet Union and other communist regimes I’m sure is fine by you. Monitoring of potential terrorists under proper warrants is part of the fundamental defense of the state that citizens of democracies expect of their governments – something established by Queen Elizabeth 1 500+ years ago. Are abuses possible? Absolutely and the extent to which the NSA has been storing identifiable personal information of US citizens not under a proper FISA court warrants is an abuse of power that should be checked.

    To libel a new tech company in New Zealand whose links to the NSA are the subject of nothing more than online gossip and supposition and to accuse them of being implicit in illegal monitoring activities is utterly irresponsible. In the eyes of the left destroying wealth is their primary objective – if voters won’t elect the hard left (as they invariably don’t) they will seek to imminent their anti capitalist agenda by any means. Vague quotes from business journals reporting gossip falls far short of put up or shut up.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. kiwi in america (2,454 comments) says:

    *impliment not imminent – it was an ipad post and I missed the autocorrect

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    There was no personal attack on Thiel, Norman simply mentioned that a company provided data mining services and tried to connect this to the attitudes of the current government to increased surveillance of New Zealanders.

    It is not libel to note what services the company provides – and that intelligence organisations are some of the clients. Media overseas have already done this in regard to the company.

    Is Drury trying to suggest that we should support increased surveillance of people around the world if companies engaged in this invest here? And that defence of privacy is something to sacrifice if we receive some of the profit from growth in this service sector?

    The what is good for business being the bottom line, is of course the point Drury was making – but his aside, foreign investor buy out of our power industry, is spurious. Foreign ownership will not grow our economy.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. kiwi in america (2,454 comments) says:

    SPC
    Norman engaged in guilt by association with each link in his chain of supposition unprovable. Palantir can do data mining but its association with the NSA is nothing but supposition and gossip. Then Norman indulges in his usual conspiracy theorist stuff assuming that the GCSB is performing data mining for the NSA in the type and form that is causing concern in the US. He neatly ties this in a snarky bow against the backdrop of the GCSB issues in NZ and the government’s amendments to its governing act that makes legal procedures that have been undertaken for decades by various governments left and right, the legal status of some of the surveillance activities being complicated by Clark’s last minute amendments to the 2002 legislation. So to summarize Norman’s various leaps of fantasy:
    * NSA data mining in the US – jury still out as to precisely what aspects of the surveillance were not in accordance with the procedures (used by Republican and Democrat Presidents) under legal warrants issued by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.
    To Russell Norman: any and all activity by the NSA is nefarious, illegal and immoral
    * GCSB’s assistance rendered to the NSA – whilst all NZ PMs of either major party have adopted the same policy to not comment on the activities of intelligence services it would appear that the GCSB gathers information in NZ in accordance with NZ law and under relevant NZ warrants. The 88 people supposedly ‘illegally’ spied on, the issue was merely the delegated surveillance relationship between the SIS and GCSB and whether the SIS could ask the GCSB to eavesdrop. In each of the cases Crown Law was of the view that the actions taken by the GCSB were legal and that there was cause for concern about the individuals by the SIS – the new amendment takes away any of the ambiguity.
    To Russell Norman: the GCSB is a covert shady organization that breaks the law all the time and is a willing co-conspirator with the NSA in the illegal data mining of NZers private emails and phone calls. There is no question in his mind (despite no proof) that GCSB is doing the same things in NZ.
    * Palantir has been mentioned as having expertise in the data mining industry. People ALLEGE (with no proof) that they do work for the NSA. There is no proof that Palantir has contracts with the NSA nor is there proof that, if they do perform work for the NSA, that is/was work of the nature of surveillance outside legally issued warrants.
    To Russell Norman: The rumours about Palantir must be true, they work for the NSA and their work here in NZ must be to perform covert and illegal eavesdropping of New Zealanders private communications.

    It is no wonder Drury reacted so negatively. Norman’s tweets and likely private comments are three long bows of supposition drawn against the backdrop of the Greens inherent anti-American hostility. He used a private company as a prop for a Muldoonist style cheap nasty unsubstantiated shot.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. Yoza (1,875 comments) says:

    Seriously KIA, you are either naive, insane or aware you are dishonestly parroting US state propaganda. The CIA is a major investor in Palantir. The CIA works hand in glove (more appropriately ‘fist in gauntlet’) with the NSA to further the US’s imperial ambitions in the interests of US corporations. These people would be idiots if they were not cooperating closely, and I am sure these people are not idiots.

    I’m guessing, from your history of posting here, that you support New Zealand being subject to the dictates of the masters in Washington. There really is no other explanation for the servility apparent in the way you write.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    kia, the invective comes from those like yourself – there is nothing cheap, or nasty, or Muldoonist in holding governments to account for their exercise of power.

    It is not anti-American to be concerned about spying by them, or to call for the activities of the NSA to be legal and transparent.

    It is not fantasy to note that American media have linked the company’s data mining services to US intelligence agencies. Nor inappropriate to note that the company’s services could be being used to spy on New Zealanders. Americans are outsourcing spying to outside companies and using data mining systems designed by them – there is now profit in spying on others.

    Catering to companies that profit from spying comes second to holding governments to account for what they do with the power they have.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  44. Yoza (1,875 comments) says:

    Ooopps, more ‘Marxists’ line up to question the implications of the unfolding PRISM scandal:

    Media release – 12 June 2013

    “A group of New Zealand ICT organisations yesterday sent an open letter to Prime Minister John Key and Law and Order Committee Chair Jacqui Dean calling for an extension to submissions on the TICS and GCSB Bills currently out for consultation.

    The letter, signed by InternetNZ, TUANZ, NZRise, CatalystIT and the Institute of IT Professionals (IITP), calls for more time to study the impact recent revelations about the US electronic surveillance programme PRISM will have on the Telecommunications Interception Capability and Security (TICS) and Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment (GCSB) Bills.”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  45. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Yoza

    “I’m guessing, from your history of posting here, that you support New Zealand being subject to the dictates of the masters in Washington”

    And I am guessing from your history here that you support NZ being subject to the corrupt dictates of the United Nations.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  46. kiwi in america (2,454 comments) says:

    Yozza
    Nothing but more conspiracy theories backed by links to online gossip….oh and more Marxist anti American rhetoric. With respect to PRISM, any surveillance done outside of a legitimately obtained FISA warrant in my book is wrong and ought to be investigated and brought to an end.

    SPC
    Norman tried to link a private company to the NSA surveillance furor by innuendo and guilt by association..without a shred of proof. Your proof is nothing more than supposition by US journalists.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  47. Yoza (1,875 comments) says:

    Hey KIA, is it comfortable down there flopping around on your belly like a performing seal?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  48. kiwi in america (2,454 comments) says:

    Go back to reading “Das Kapital” Yozza

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  49. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    @Yoza,

    Those industry groups might have cause to regret the wording of their letter as the PRISM leak has been shown to be a complete fizzer.

    As a member if two of those groups, I certainly hope they cringe the next time they read that letter.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote