I bet you they will be popular

June 6th, 2013 at 9:00 am by David Farrar

Kate Chapman at Stuff reports:

The first are expected to open in term one next year after the legislation passed its final hurdle in Parliament on Tuesday night.

Excellent. But of course they will only open, if parents choose to send their kids there. Unlike other (state) schools they have no zones. No parent will have to send their kids there because no other school will take them. Parents will only send their kids there if they think it will provide a better eductaional outcome for their children.

I welcome parents having that choice.

There have already been 35 applications to run charter schools, with successful applicants due to be announced soon.

The evidence from overseas is very clear. In some areas, charter schools have made a significant, or even more than significant, improvement in the learning results of their students. But also in some areas, they have not. A charter school is not a magic bullet.

What will determine success is the rigor of the contract with the Ministry of Education, and the quality of the successful applicants.

My hope is that once they have been established and operating, we’ll judge them on their actual results. An evidence based approach to the issue is what I seek. If a charter school does not meet the (bulk of the) targets it agrees to and students are not doing well with them – then they should face having to change or close down. But that will be decisions based on individual schools and how they go.

Green Party co-leader Metiria Turei said students were being “exploited and experimented on” by Banks and his “mad ACT policies”.

Mad? To give parents choice?Again, no parent is forced to send their children to a charter school, unlike the local state school.

What I am looking forward to is being able to evaluate at the end of 2014 how each individual charter school has done.

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118 Responses to “I bet you they will be popular”

  1. campit (467 comments) says:

    It will be a pretty low blow to the Christchurch schools that have been shut down if they reopen as charter schools next year.

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  2. RRM (9,915 comments) says:

    Campit – yes because those schools were ENTITLED to operate in perpetuity.

    This is excellent news. Well done, JK & Co.

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  3. doggone7 (801 comments) says:

    Another viewpoint about charter schools with no mention of the underachievers in the present system. I thought these schools were being established to cater for those in the “long tail of underachievement.”

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  4. toms (299 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  5. Paulus (2,626 comments) says:

    Turei will know all about Mad policies – she is cuckoo land still on dope from her McGillicudy Serious Party days.
    The only difference is that she can now afford expensive clothes.

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  6. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    Its time to take the Greens out……literally destroy them. I now renounce my Libertarian beliefs and advocate defensive violence against them. Liberty or death.

    …..That’s what I really want to say….grits teeth…>;-(

    [DPF: 30 demerits]

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  7. campit (467 comments) says:

    The thing that gets me is the charter schools issue received no coverage in the election – ACT just came out with it after they were elected. Regardless of the pros and cons, there is no mandate for this from the electorate.

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  8. YesWeDid (1,048 comments) says:

    ‘It will be a pretty low blow to the Christchurch schools that have been shut down if they reopen as charter schools next year.’

    I certainly wouldn’t discount the possibility of this happening, Hekia Parata has such a minimal grasp of her portfolio that she would do something as spectacularly dumb as this.

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  9. Keeping Stock (10,337 comments) says:

    Mad? To give parents choice?

    In that socialist Utopia where the Greens know what’s best for you, then choice is indeed a manifestation of madness and even of evil.

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  10. mandk (992 comments) says:

    toms,
    Won’t happen because:
    a) the Red-Greens will not win in 2014, and
    b) even if they did, there would be a huge outcry from parents who have sent their kids to Charter schools.
    Maori and Pasifika kids will benefit most and the Red-Greens would be scared to upset that section of the electorate. Not sure it will even be part of the manifesto.

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  11. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    How will anyone measure the performance of Charter schools if they have no required curriculum and they are not under national standards?

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  12. Manolo (13,735 comments) says:

    The totalitarian streak of the Luddites is for all to see. They know what’s best for the rest of us and will impose their will regardless of public opinion to the contrary.

    Socialist Labour, the minor party in this unholy alliance, is happy to go along.

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  13. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    Good post DPF…would that all the political spectrum were as willing as you to support measures aimed at addressing our appalling record of non achievement with kids who, for whatever reason, don’t do well in the “one size fits all” model of our current education system. Except of course those lucky few who can afford to “go private.”

    Toms: You unwittingly expose just how utterly bereft of principle those on the left are. You confidently predict – no doubt correctly – that the socialists and their handmaidens will repeal this intiative as soon as they get the chance – regardless of how successful it is. This is the kind of blind ideology for which the left is so famous – never mind if it works, just get rid of it, because it doesn’t fit our world view.

    campit: If you never heard of charther schools during the last election it was because the media were determined not to give ACT any positive airtime. That, and the fact that they ran a particularly woeful campaign themselves.

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  14. Nigel Kearney (1,012 comments) says:

    >How will anyone measure the performance of Charter schools if they have no required
    >curriculum and they are not under national standards?

    I’m pleased to see people on the left suddenly discovering the importance of testing the performance of schools against standards.

    The government has been a bit vague about this. They have said charter schools will be governed by a contract that can include targets for achievement and attendance, including the existing national standards. But they haven’t come right out and said that national standards will apply to all charter schools. IMO they should do so.

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  15. mandk (992 comments) says:

    @ SPC
    Charter schools will have targets for student engagement, progression and attainment.
    Their perfomance will be clear, unlike some state schools where the teachers a/o board refuse to submit perfomance info to the Ministry.

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  16. Rick Rowling (813 comments) says:

    First Charter school will open for term one in 2014, and close its doors permanently after the Labour/Green coalitions wins power nine months later.

    Toms, comments like that are why so many people WON’T vote Greebour.

    Believe it or not, most kiwis have a sense of fair play, and saying in opposition “if you take up this opportunity (buying MRP shares, enrolling your kid in a charter school) we will f**k you up, because it suits us politically” doesn’t engender trust or affinity with that party.

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  17. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    mandk, what targets?

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  18. RRM (9,915 comments) says:

    The thing that gets me is the charter schools issue received no coverage in the election – ACT just came out with it after they were elected. Regardless of the pros and cons, there is no mandate for this from the electorate.

    Campit –

    I am concerned that the NZ Police decision of whether to have Ford or Holden supply highway patrol cars received no coverage in the election. Regardless of the pros and cons, there is no mandate from the electorate. Shocking! :evil:

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  19. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Nigel Kearney, there were existing systems for measuring achievement in schools prior to national standards, in fact the prime criticism of the new regime was that many schools thought their scheme did that much better and they were being required to accept a less useful testing model.

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  20. CHFR (228 comments) says:

    SPC I am afraid you are wrong, there were minimal measurable standards from what I could see as a parent. Unless you take “they are fitting in well” as a measurable standard.

    No the objection was purely political and since the Blue Team proposed it it must by default be bad.

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  21. RRM (9,915 comments) says:

    Toms, comments like that are why so many people WON’T vote Greebour.

    Believe it or not, most kiwis have a sense of fair play, and saying in opposition “if you take up this opportunity (buying MRP shares, enrolling your kid in a charter school) we will f**k you up, because it suits us politically” doesn’t engender trust or affinity with that party.

    F**king SPOT ON Rick Rowling.

    I have party voted for the greens (and voted left in general) every election since 1999 – I haven’t always agreed with everything they’ve said but I’ve always thought it is – overall – good to have them around.

    But both of those parties have fallen a long, LONG way down since Clark and Fitzsimons were leading them.

    The Labour/Green lurch to the left in recent months has been so nasty, ideological and just plain INSANE that I can no longer consider supporting them.

    Do these children REALLY think their role is to rule by decree, and communism is the answer to the country’s supposed “problems”??

    The Labour/Green recent stances on cheap houses, charter schools and electricity prices just cost them one vote.

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  22. Tom Barker (143 comments) says:

    I find it charming, and a little surprising, that the ACT party is suddenly so concerned at low levels of educational achievement among Maori and Pacific Islands students. This is not an issue on which they have troubled themselves in the past. So the claim that charter schools are a Trojan horse for privatising the state education system seems credible to me.

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  23. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    CHFR, the objection to national standards is that they are not used in the nations with the best educational records. Nor have they improved the international position of those nations that have used them.

    And most schools did have systems for measuring achievement before national standards.

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  24. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    “the objection to national standards is that they are not used in the nations with the best educational records.”

    By implication you’re saying our success in education is from following what others do.
    Apparently we’re one of the nations with the best educational records.
    Maybe others should follow us.

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  25. mandk (992 comments) says:

    SPS @ 10.03

    “Partnership Schools|Kura Hourua have specific school-level targets that align with Government priorities and commitments. These targets include student achievement indicators (e.g. National Standards, NCEA or New Zealand-recognised standardised tests), and student engagement indicators (e.g. student attendance, retention and progression post-school).Value-added achievement measures matched to the sponsor’s objectives will be assessed, as well as measures associated with identity, language and culture. This will help to identify what progress is being made by students throughout their time at Partnership Schools/ Kura Hourua.”

    “Partnership Schools|Kura Hourua with students in Years 1-8 must report against the National Standards or Ngā Whanaketanga Rumaki Māori”

    http://nzmcs.education.govt.nz/FAQs

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  26. Scott Chris (6,133 comments) says:

    I now renounce my Libertarian beliefs and advocate defensive violence against them.

    An example of how an insane person would justify his actions.

    Get psychiatric help.

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  27. campit (467 comments) says:

    campit: If you never heard of charther schools during the last election it was because the media were determined not to give ACT any positive airtime. That, and the fact that they ran a particularly woeful campaign themselves.

    David, so how come the policy of charter schools didn’t feature on the Act website at the time of the election?

    http://web.archive.org/web/20111128084140/http://www.act.org.nz/policies/education

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  28. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    “I find it charming, and a little surprising, that the ACT party is suddenly so concerned at low levels of educational achievement among Maori and Pacific Islands students. This is not an issue on which they have troubled themselves in the past. So the claim that charter schools are a Trojan horse for privatising the state education system seems credible to me.”

    lmao yeah sorry, we forgot. only the left care about people! of course the only way to help people is to tax the rich and redistribute their money blah blah

    a trojan horse? yeah thats the goal. 100% private schools in NZ. idiot.

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  29. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    Tom Barker: Your comment shows how ill informed you are – perhaps by choice. Although it would be fair to say they have never sold their message well, ACT’s policies have always been aimed at getting the “have nots” up to the same table – or level playing field if you like – as the rest.

    As I have said here before, I never saw Roger Douglas as animated as when – while they were trying to get me on board – I said I needed some reassurance they were not just about benefiting the rich pricks.

    Douglas pointed out that he had always – pre MMP – represented poor electorates, all of them in South Auckland. It was his people he said, who died on the waiting lists of inefficient hospitals; his people who ended up with no qualifications and no skills, and doomed to a life “on the bene” because the education system didnt work for them. His people who ended up in jail because of the dysfunctional families the out of control welfare state gave rise to.

    As I said above, to be fair, ACT never did a good job of selling that reality to the electorate. But if If you had read more widely, you might know that policies such as charter schools have been ACT policy for years, and that they are NOT designed for ACT’s supposed “rich mates”.

    As Roger once pointed out to me, his removal of manufacturing subsidies in 1984 cost his mate Alan Gibbs $10 million 1984 dollars. Was removing manufacturing subsidies a policy designed to benefit “ACT’s rich mates” also?

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  30. campit (467 comments) says:

    David, please respond to my 10:35am comment. Charter schools not mentioned on ACT website at the time of the election. Exactly how widely should the public have read to know that it was ACT policy?

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  31. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    campit: Is that right? I dont think it’s any secret that ACT ran the worse campaign in living memory in 2011…Appointing a 24 year old who didn’t believe ACT had any business having a law and order policy at all was a particular masterstroke…

    But I can say this, and not risk having my party membership cancelled…could you say something as critical of your lot (whichever particular lot they are) and not get lynched? Or at least get banned permanently from that beacon of free speech, “The Standard”

    While editing the above comment I read your most recent: I can’t defend charter schools not being on the website at the time of the election (if that is so), so I am not going to try.

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  32. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    sorry…hasty editing…the second sentence of my first para. makes no sense. It should have read:

    “Appointing a 24 year old who didnt believe ACT had any business having a law and order policy at all as its justice spokesman was a particular masterstroke.”

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  33. Rich Prick (1,699 comments) says:

    To those so exercised by charter/partnership schools, don’t choose to send your children to one. There, quite easy really.

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  34. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    campit – i love the lefts new found passion for this “they dont have a mandate” crap.

    privy council
    ban freedom of speech act
    civil unions
    labours mini budget (if they had won it would have been out in 08, they refused to say what was in it)

    etc etc etc

    do you really think people would have switched from ACT/ National over charter schools? Id love to see some genuine polling on the issue right now. the arrogant teachers unions might be in for a shock

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  35. willtruth (243 comments) says:

    This policy needs to be extended to the health system. For too long NZers seeking medical care for their children have been forced to send them to hospitals that the government requires to be staffed by “qualified” doctors. It is time to end this tyranny foisted on us by a self interested “medical” cartel. What about parents who would rather put their faith in crystal healing or homeopathy? We need charter hospitals that can be staffed by these alternative practitioners, so that these parents can have the freedom of choice to send their children there. Of course not all of these hospitals will necessarily have good results, but that is the point. We will close the ones with high death rates. I have a friend who wants to open a colour therapy hospital, and I expect that it would be very successful. All his patients go in with their karma completely askew and come out with perfectly aligned karma, and he has never had a death from the side effects of colour therapy; there are no side effects!

    Health is every bit as important as education, and it needs this policy every bit as much.

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  36. toms (299 comments) says:

    Charter schools are a piece of hair-brained ideological claptrap from ACT, a party which counts itself lucky to register at all in opinion polls and whose sole MP is a political opportunist who has been exposed as a corrupt laughing stock who can only win a seat because of shady deals with the governing party to manipulate the electoral system. They have been rammed through in the face of determined opposition from every expert on the subject of education.

    ACT and National have no mandate for these schools. They were sprung on the community after the last election, presumably as an ill-thought out brain fart bone thrown to John Banks so he can claim something for his joke party of loons and cranks and criminals to crow about. The incoming Labour/Green coalition has made it clear they will shut these schools. The incoming Labour Green government will command the support of at least 51% of the electorate. Adopting the Farrar principle of if it was in the manifesto then we-won-so-we-can-do-what-we-damn-well-like with the electoral mandate, the new coalition government will have every right to shut these schools. After all, they said they would before the election and the people elected them.

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  37. RRM (9,915 comments) says:

    Toms – If parents send their kids to these schools, and the kids do well there, does that still mean the schools should be closed by a Labour Govt?

    If so, why?

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  38. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    BAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Gee toms, great argument. Are you sure you used enough words like “mad” “nuts” “no mandate”.

    How about a clear argument as to why we should not have charter schools?

    Lay it out. Bullet points.

    Ill get you started:

    1) Not all of the teachers will have to be registered (most will be)
    2) We already have the worlds best schools (unless your brown). Therefor we should never try to improve. even though we are pwogwessives.

    Please tell me why you think these schools will fail.

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  39. RRM (9,915 comments) says:

    Adopting the Farrar principle of if it was in the manifesto then we-won-so-we-can-do-what-we-damn-well-like

    Toms

    Re-arrange the following three words, to make a phrase that illustrates your utter, blind hypocrisy in complaining the right ignores public wishes, or claims a mandate where none exists:

    SMACKING

    ANTI

    BILL

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  40. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    Don’t be silly dime! You don’t ask doctrinaire lefties for rational argument or, perish the thought, actual EVIDENCE that’s not how the game is played at all…except of course if that evidence fits their paradigm, and then you shout that from the roof tops and suppress the rest…

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  41. toms (299 comments) says:

    They will be closed because a new education minister who doesn’t regard the entire education sector as the enemy and isn’t hostile to expert advice from people who know about education will make an evidence based decision that these schools are an unfortunate experiment in ideological madness foisted on an unsuspecting New Zealand public by a lunatic party made up of completely mad bastards.

    Reality has a liberal bias, get used to it.

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  42. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    When I read many of the above comments, I’m left asking myself the following question:

    Since when, and in what sort of country, does a party need a mandate to increase people’s freedom?

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  43. Lance (2,654 comments) says:

    For those ignoramuses on the left in this topic;
    Act always promoted that better scholastic outcomes would happen when parents had choice. Even further back in Roger Douglas’s book.

    Hell, I’m not even an Act supporter and I know this has been their answer to the piss poor outcomes for so many of our school kids.

    The left are clearly shit scared this will work. Worst of all parents will see they don’t need the state in all aspects of their lives. Oh the humanity, how will the Lefties control everyone if they discover this?

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  44. Lance (2,654 comments) says:

    @toms
    Only people as talented as Steve Jobs can live in a reality distortion field. You aren’t talented enough.

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  45. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    “They will be closed because a new education minister who doesn’t regard the entire education sector as the enemy and isn’t hostile to expert advice from people who know about education will make an evidence based decision that these schools are an unfortunate experiment in ideological madness foisted on an unsuspecting New Zealand public by a lunatic party made up of completely mad bastards.

    Reality has a liberal bias, get used to it.”

    lol umm yeah ok.

    Can you give some actual reasons as to why these schools will fail?

    some detail please. not just “they dont work overseas” and other propaganda provided by the left.

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  46. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    will make an evidence based decision that these schools are an unfortunate experiment in ideological madness foisted on an unsuspecting New Zealand public by a lunatic party made up of completely mad bastards.

    So you’re predicting evidence based decisions in advance and calling *others* ideological.

    And mad.

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  47. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    DG, pre Douglas there was full employment – what welfare state were his ACT policies going to save us from. The welfare state his economic reforms left us with when unemployment went over 10%.

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  48. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Charter schools are a piece of hair-brained ideological claptrap from ACT,

    They’re from the US originally – not sure how you could have missed that.

    a party which counts itself lucky to register at all in opinion polls

    As opposed to say, the greens, a party who’s hard fought policy only mustered 6% of the voting public in a referendum.

    and whose sole MP is a political opportunist who has been exposed as a corrupt laughing stock

    As opposed to say, the greens, a party who, after trashing a referendum against them submitted a referendum (on a question already decided by virtue of the fact it was made *the* major issue in a general election) petition with fully one quarter duplicate or forged signatures.

    who can only win a seat because of shady deals with the governing party to manipulate the electoral system.

    “shady deals” in this instance meaning “sitting down to have a cup of tea in the full sight of the media”.

    They have been rammed through in the face of determined opposition from every expert on the subject of education.

    Correction: every expert on the subject of education that disagrees with the concept of charter schools.

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  49. Colville (2,268 comments) says:

    I thought the leftards hate charter schools just because the teachers at charter schools are very unlikely to be union drones?

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  50. bc (1,367 comments) says:

    Campit does make a valid point. There was no mention of charter schools before the election, and let’s face it ACT are only in parliament because of ‘you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours’ deals with Epsom. It will be interesting to see if ACT survives in 2014.

    I’ve got no doubt that charter schools will ‘work’. There can be no other option for the government. Data will be manipulated, extra money will be pumped in and good news stories will be shouted from the rooftops to ensure that charter schools are a ‘success’.
    After all charter schools don’t have to the requirements of state schools. Ensuring any evaluation is positive will be a piece of cake.

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  51. Keeping Stock (10,337 comments) says:

    RRM said

    The Labour/Green recent stances on cheap houses, charter schools and electricity prices just cost them one vote.

    Welcome to the dark side RRM :D

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  52. cha (4,008 comments) says:

    Everything will be just peachy – and then Fethullah Gulen’s Hanafi schools of enlightenment will arrive.

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  53. Lance (2,654 comments) says:

    So like if charter schools work well for Maori youth (this is why the Maori party are supporting it) then is the Greens / Labour threat to close them racist?

    Vote Greens/Labour – your racist parties.

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  54. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    DG, pre Douglas there was full employment – what welfare state were his ACT policies going to save us from. The welfare state his economic reforms left us with when unemployment went over 10%.

    “Full employment” – you do know that was because all the people who would be otherwise unemployed worked for railways, right?

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  55. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    “Campit does make a valid point. There was no mention of charter schools before the election”

    It’s a shame, because I think ACT would have done a lot better if they’d campaigned prominently on Charter Schools.
    Still, they’ll know for next year.

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  56. alex Masterley (1,517 comments) says:

    Toms at 11:21 am.

    The Minister (s) received “expert” advice from the ministry about the go live on Novopay. Look where that got them.

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  57. bc (1,367 comments) says:

    Well done DPF, with the demerits of scorned @ 9,26am and shame on the people that thumbs up voted the comment.
    The comment above from Paulus is not much better – is it public knowledge that Turei smokes dope? If not then it is defamation. Thumbs up votes with that comment too I see. What’s the bet that those people that gave those thumbs up votes, went on to call the Green Party the nasty party (or worse) without even noticing their own hypocrisy.

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  58. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    “is it public knowledge that Turei smokes dope?”

    It was pretty clear when she appeared on “7 Days”. In other words, yes.

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  59. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    toms – you seem to have gone :(

    i was looking forward to an actual discussion.

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  60. doggone7 (801 comments) says:

    campit (376) Says: “The thing that gets me is the charter schools issue received no coverage in the election – ACT just came out with it after they were elected. Regardless of the pros and cons, there is no mandate for this from the electorate.”

    There is from the Epsom electorate. ACT has always wanted to privatise schools.

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  61. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    Alex Masterly: Very well said…”expert” advice in this country is often woeful at best, and ideologically driven at worst. When we were fighting to get 3S in, the “expert advisors” at the MOJ told the Minister that the policy would increase prisoner numbers by 40% in five years. They just made those numbers up; there was no basis for them at all. The real number is a few hundred over 5 years – and even that is proving overly pessimistic.

    scrubone: Spot on… Roger Douglas has told me that in the Kirk era – when he as a junior Minister – Cabinet would be provided with the weekly/monthly unemployment figures, and the respective Ministers of Railways or Works were simply told to increase their numbers by the required amount. Back then of course, in those “draconian” days, beneficiaries didnt have a choice – it was turn up for work at the Railways or the MOW or go off the bene. We are much more enlightened now.

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  62. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    Back then of course, in those “draconian” days, beneficiaries didnt have a choice – it was turn up for work at the Railways or the MOW or go off the bene. We are much more enlightened now.

    I suspect you would find that the vast majority of people on the unemployment benefit would take that deal now.

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  63. bc (1,367 comments) says:

    RightNow@11.56am
    How was it pretty clear that she smoked dope when she appeared on 7 Days?

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  64. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    “I suspect you would find that the vast majority of people on the unemployment benefit would take that deal now.”

    I suspect you would find that you are out of touch. how many people do you know on benefits? how often are you in that sort of scene?

    As someone that lives in mulitple worlds i can tell you there are a SHIT LOAD who just dont want to work.

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  65. slijmbal (1,236 comments) says:

    @Graeme

    “Back then of course, in those “draconian” days, beneficiaries didnt have a choice – it was turn up for work at the Railways or the MOW or go off the bene. We are much more enlightened now.

    I suspect you would find that the vast majority of people on the unemployment benefit would take that deal now.”

    Based on my personal experience I would reckon something closer to

    1/3rd would take the deal
    1/3rd are for a variety of reasons incapable of doing the normal day-to-day things such a job would require
    1/3rd would call you a b****d for trying to make a slave of them, or just not bother to turn up, or any number of reactions that basically mean they don’t want to work

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  66. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    There is no way that National would ever test that, it would undermine the capacity of their employer masters to hold down wages for semi-skilled and skilled workers.

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  67. Viking2 (11,467 comments) says:

    campit (376) Says:
    June 6th, 2013 at 9:05 am

    It will be a pretty low blow to the Christchurch schools that have been shut down if they reopen as charter schools next year.

    ======================================
    Having listened in the weekend to a parent in one school who, with the help of others put forward a proposal that Parata congratulated them for for its forward thinking, only to have it tossed I doubt that those parents will care. They will possibly take up the option as this school has lots of ground.
    They lost because the BOT chairman was not interested as he was movin on and the Headmaster had told the Ed. Board that he was retiring. Except neither told the parents till after the close decision.

    Not happy campers at all.

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  68. Rightandleft (663 comments) says:

    Given the names of some on the list of potential sponsors of charter schools I think it likely many of the parents who choose to send their kids to them will be doing so for religious reasons. I don’t like the idea of tax money being spent on a school to indoctrinate kids with one particular brand of religion. That is entirely possible since the schools won’t have to use the NZ Curriculum and will be able to hire unregistered, untrained people to be teachers.

    My biggest objection to the arguments put forward by the proponents of these schools is their claim that we need these charters as an alternative to a one-size fits all public system. It’s obvious that our public system is anything but one-size fits all. We have a one of the most decentralised public systems in the developed world. The Curriculum was specifically written to be flexible, to allow schools in different communities to teach different matetrial in ways relevant to their community. Where I live parents can choose from same-sex state, co-ed state or same-sex Catholic high schools. They can choose a school using Cambridge Exams and stict discipline, a school using the new 21st Century open-plan classrooms and learner-led education methods. They can send their kid to schools using the PB4L (Positive Behaviour for Learning) programme or the Te Kotahitanga teaching method. Our public system is already incredibly flexible. The provision for special character schools has already allowed some very innovative or niche schools to be created around the country. None of these things are possible in the US system, where they needed charters to introduce some choice and flexibility. We don’t need them, we’re already there.

    Those in favour of charters please elaborate on exactly how our system is one-size fits all.

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  69. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    bc – the cast dobbed her in during the segment where they try and make a politician answer yes or no.

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  70. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    We don’t need them, we’re already there.

    Hopefully, they’ll teach courses in logic.

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  71. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    rightandleft – you make our system sound wonderful! unless you happen to be brown and failing.

    your argument against charter schools seems to be “we dont need them”. im sorry but that doesnt fly. tell us why they will fail. if you cant then why shouldnt we have them?

    “I don’t like the idea of tax money being spent on a school to indoctrinate kids with one particular brand of religion.”

    i dont like tax money being spent indoctrinating kids into socialism.

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  72. Rightandleft (663 comments) says:

    Dime,

    The danger is that these schools will take kids out of local state schools, decreasing their funding and hurting the students remaining in them. The Maori and Pasifika achievement gaps have been closing for the last decade. There are successful programmes in state schools now and succesful special character public schools. The answer is to bring these successful programmes into more of the state schools in low-decile areas. These new charter schools are only the solution if you believe the problem is the use of union teachers. Clearly that is what many of the commenters here feel is the problem but I don’t think the facts back that view.

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  73. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    The danger is that these schools will take kids out of local state schools, decreasing their funding and hurting the students remaining in them.

    People do not belong to the state, and children do not belong to the local state school.

    If people chose, for whatever reason, to take their children out of a given school, they have that right in a free society and your suggestion, that the school’s rights somehow superseded this, is both highly offensive and extremely dangerous.

    You should be ashamed of yourself.

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  74. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    what scrubone said.

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  75. Rightandleft (663 comments) says:

    Scrubone,

    You are very quick to attack and insult people. You jump to the conclusion that I’m some kind of statist who thinks schools own their students. I don’t care that the state school has lost students, I care that there is less funding left for the children who are still attending that school. Their educations could be harmed as the resources in the school decrease. Schools all have some costs that cannot be decreased just because there are fewer students there. I am concerned for the welfare of the students, not the school. You can see this from the very statement you quoted, yet you have chosen to ignore the last line of it. Am I ashamed of that position? Not a chance.

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  76. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    rightandleft – are you the sort who thinks its unfair that one school gets all the best kids? ya know “we need zones, otherwise the smart kids will go to the best school and thats not FAIR on the kids left behind”.

    i fucking love that argument – socialism at its finest, keep everyone down.

    do you really think with about 30 charter schools nation wide it is going to mean drastic changes to public schools?

    you still havent told us why charter schools will fail. what negative impact will they have on those attending?

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  77. bc (1,367 comments) says:

    RightNow @ 1.20pm
    Hang on, let’s get this absolutely sorted. Because I think an MP, especially a leader of a party, admitting they smoke dope would be more widely reported.
    What so you mean the cast dobbed her in? Does the cast refer to the comedians, who by their very nature use exaggeration in their storytelling.
    Did they ask her directly if she smoked dope and she said yes?
    Clarification please – because I kind of think you are making this up.

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  78. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Rightandleft, if you don’t want to be seen as a statist, don’t make statist comments.

    Your concern for students is belied by your opposition to charter schools.

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  79. bc (1,367 comments) says:

    Dime @ 1.43pm
    Let’s not pretend for one second you would care about brown kids failing school. It fools no one.
    You’ve made it pretty clear in your posts that the only person you care about is yourself. Thus the referring to yourself in the third person.
    You are just using that as an argument to push your own ideological position.

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  80. Rightandleft (663 comments) says:

    dime,

    Yep, that’s me. The thing is public education by definition is socialist. It is utilitarian, doing what is best for the greatest number of people and society as a whole, but not what is best for any given individual, same as the public health system. And I’m not saying all charter schools will get worse results that state schools, some probably will get better results.

    The problem is those good results will then be used by people like you to say, see charter schools are naturally better than the socialist unionist state schools. And that argument will be used to close state schools and replace them with charters, as has happened in the UK. But they will actually be getting better results because they have better funding, smaller class sizes and are able to more easily exclude students. Even if a lottery is used to select their students there will still be the problem that the parents who are motivated enough to enter their kids in the lottery are not the parents of the kids in the long-tail anyway. Some of the charters will have significant and unfair advantages to other state schools.

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  81. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    bc – I also thought it would have been more widely reported, but mostly it seems to have been ignored.

    “Does the cast refer to the comedians” – yes, I think that’s their job title.
    “Did they ask her directly if she smoked dope” – yes, it was something like “did you just have a big kahuna in the green room?”
    “and she said yes?” – she didn’t say yes, since the aim of that game was for her not to say yes or no, I forget her actual reply, it was probably something like “no comment”, but it was clear from her face that the answer was in fact yes.
    I’m sure there was another question asked that was something like “are you stoned right now” with similar reaction.
    It was clear there had been some smoking of some pot in some room with some people before the show.

    I commented on it at the time, here at KB I think. I’ve also had a search for that comment but it was a while ago and I can’t seem to isolate the comment with the right search terms, I’m pretty sure it was the first series of 7 Days.
    I would have thought I’d be able to find video of it, but for some reason searching for Metiria Turei 7 Days doesn’t pull up relevant results. I can tell you it was on September 25th 2009. Perhaps you could search for video of it and see for yourself.

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  82. Rightandleft (663 comments) says:

    Scrubone,

    A statist would be calling for the end of Tomorrow’s Schools, for the imposition of strict zones that don’t allow children to attend schools outside their suburb. A statist would call for a stricter curriculum directing all education from a department in Wellington. A statist would be calling for the abolition of integrated and private schools so all children were at the mercy of the state system.

    I like Tomorrow’s Schools, I like schools competing against each other, parents having the choice of many schools of different types. I like that no school has a captive customer base. What I oppose is the complete elimination of school zones because they ensure that every child has to be taken somewhere. Zones are a safety net for the kids not the school. I have no problem with private education, as long as my tax money isn’t paying for it. If people want to opt out, let them have the choice.

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  83. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    And now for something different.

    Dpf says:

    No parent is forced to send their children unlike the local state school.

    Say what? When did that happen? State schools kidnapping kids for their rolls? Nonsense.

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  84. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    Rightnow what’s your position on DGs suggestion that MPs bygones should be bygones? ;-)

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  85. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    “You’ve made it pretty clear in your posts that the only person you care about is yourself. Thus the referring to yourself in the third person.”

    Not real bright are you.

    Ive spoken many times on here how I think islanders get a shitty deal in this country. I think it sucks that maori get special treatment based on bloodlines when it should be based on actual need.

    Ive also ranted at times how maori leadership and politicians are fucked and they are sending maori backward at a great speed.

    We have a difference of opinion but to suggest that i dont care makes you nothing but a cunt.

    I guarantee you ive given more to charity than you ever will in your miserable existence. Everything from money, prizes for charity auctions, product donations and my time. as you may know Dime imports and wholesales for a living. i get hit up 2-3 times a week for donations and im a soft touch. hell, ive kept people employed when i shouldnt (recession). I have given people starts in their careers when most people wouldnt. ive employed palestinians, islanders, koreans, chinese etc etc etc hel at one stage my sales dept looked like the UN.

    just so you know how strongly i feel on this issue i will tell you a tale..

    about 3 years ago i was dating a teacher. very smart, very pretty, good humour. from what i could tell she was a good teacher. she gave a lot of time after hours etc. the reason we broke up? she was racist as hell. she would tell me how she wouldnt even try with islanders. it made me sick and i dumped her.

    i know youll think its a made up story, your stupid little socialist head cant quite put it together.

    “how can this guy who gets drunk, fucks hookers, hates commies and unions actually care about people”.

    is it possible that maybe, just maybe people go about things in different ways.

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  86. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    rightandleft – so youre against charter schools because ummm they might be successful. well thats just as scary as hell.

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  87. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    “itstricky (312) Says:
    June 6th, 2013 at 4:22 pm
    Rightnow what’s your position on DGs suggestion that MPs bygones should be bygones? ”

    I don’t think that’s relevant to my comments. BC asked “The comment above from Paulus is not much better – is it public knowledge that Turei smokes dope? If not then it is defamation. ”

    My answer was yes, it is public knowledge. I’m not calling for action against Turei on the grounds she smokes pot, I’m simply attempting to support my assertion that it’s public knowledge. To that end I believe her appearance on 7 Days left no doubt among viewers that she had smoked it before going on the show, and I contend that constitutes public knowledge. If I could find video of the show I believe bc would also be convinced, or would have to perform some strenuous mental contortions to claim plausible deniability.

    Anyway, I do believe for many things we should let bygones be bygones. I’d exclude murder, rape, paedophilia, stuff like that.

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  88. Rightandleft (663 comments) says:

    Dime – No, not because they might be successful, because of exactly the argument you said you hated above, the socialist argument that public money should be spent to help the greatest number of people, even at the expense of the individual. I don’t believe charter schools will close the achievement gap, I think they will widen it. I don’t begrudge parents with the cash the right to send their kids to a private school if they want. I just don’t want my tax money spent to help those already likely to succeed at the expense of others. I don’t question your motives. I accept you honestly believe that charter schools will help close the achievement gap and are the best thing for society. I disagree with you, but I don’t question your intentions. I don’t see why you and others here have to be so insulting and question my intentions because I disagree with you on how to raise student outcomes.

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  89. bc (1,367 comments) says:

    RightNow: Like you, I’ve tried googling the clip and got nowhere. You seem to have a pretty good memory of the clip, so I will take your word for it, especially since you say you should let bygones be bygones.

    Dime – You are right. I do think it is a made up story, but hey I’m sure what I think is of no concern to you so don’t worry about it. I am interested in how how you match your concern for Maori & Pasifika and love of charter schools with the possibility that Destiny Church (a chuch that takes money out brown peoples pockets) could have a state funded mechanism to hook in the next generation of suckers.

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  90. bc (1,367 comments) says:

    In hindsight: “made up” is a bit harsh, but I was quoting your words. More like you have put your own spin on it.
    Break-up’s are tough, and if you are doing the break-up, you tend to come up with ways to justify it that puts the fault on the other person.

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  91. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    bc – I would swear on any bible you can find, it is a true story. this was a girl who had a masters degree, an up and comer.

    the chances of the destiny church getting approved are next to zero. skin heads and klan schools wont get approved either.

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  92. slijmbal (1,236 comments) says:

    @R&L

    “I just don’t want my tax money spent to help those already likely to succeed at the expense of others.”

    considering that those already likely to succeed probably already pay a lot of tax and that the figures I have seen for most charter school examples mean that the children attending cost the tax payer less than going to non-charter schools ……

    This seems just churlish rather than based on any greater good or people being personally advantaged at the expense of others type arguments.

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  93. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    right and left – you say your taxes but these kids do have parents. must of whom pay a decent amount of tax.

    your argument is youre ok with people to pay tax and fund other people kids, but if they want something different then they have also pay private school fees on top. in what world is that FAIR

    if I had to crystal ball it.. the majority of these charter schools succeed, a few are average and a few wont make it.

    if they become so attractive to parents and student demand goes through the roof then state schools will adapt.

    I also disagree with having smart kids in with thick shits. it may elevate the thick ones a few points but at what cost to the smart ones? it used to bug the crap out of me in school listening to some dude try to read.. finishing my work in a quarter of the time it took others. fuck, the teacher used to get me to mark peoples math homework to keep me occupied. the joys of growing up out west.

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  94. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    I don’t see why you and others here have to be so insulting and question my intentions because I disagree with you on how to raise student outcomes.

    You’re not arguing on how to raise student outcomes. You’re arguing for the status quo. By definition, that’s a position that will give the same outcomes, not improve them.

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  95. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    ACT and National have no mandate for these schools. They were sprung on the community after the last election

    And The Warehouse didn’t have a “mandate” when they opened a store in my town.

    What’s that about eh?

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  96. Colville (2,268 comments) says:

    dime @ 4.24 great rant! :-)

    and from a purely selfish point of view every rich prick tax paying righty cares about poor kids with scum parents because it is our fucking taxes that will pay for the food they eat for 80 years that they live, unless they get a semi decent education.

    a work ethic beats an education every time IMHO but that is a different rant.

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  97. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    I like Tomorrow’s Schools, I like schools competing against each other, parents having the choice of many schools of different types. I like that no school has a captive customer base. What I oppose is the complete elimination of school zones because they ensure that every child has to be taken somewhere. Zones are a safety net for the kids not the school. I have no problem with private education, as long as my tax money isn’t paying for it. If people want to opt out, let them have the choice.

    You are arguing that people should be forced to send their kids to a state school, regardless of whether or not that school meets their needs – unless they are able to pay for another option.

    You are further arguing that eliminating the economic barrier to leaving a state school will hurt the remaining students, hence people should be forced to stay. But that argument makes no sense since it arbitrarily singles out charter schools. If you apply that argument on a principled basis, you’re giving the state power that only exists in communist countries, power that no one in a democracy should ever be arguing that the government should have. Yet in this area, you did.

    You were the one who used the word statist, and then pointed to the above examples to show try and disprove that definition. But the fact that you are prepared to accept freedom in so many other areas should only make you quicker to disavow your earlier statements – something you have absolutely not done. So it’s not hard to conclude that your support for freedom only applies on a pragmatic, not principled, basis.

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  98. slijmbal (1,236 comments) says:

    @dime

    “I also disagree with having smart kids in with thick shits.”

    There are all sorts of arguments about streaming vs non streaming. The research, like most such social type research, is by no means definitive but does appear to indicate that non streaming gives an overall AVERAGE improvement but at the cost of the smart kids.

    The smart kids are basically punished. The get bored, have their advancement reduced, some smart kids play up out of boredom and basically then move to under-achievers etc etc

    If you’re a parent who wants your child to get on and that child is smart then don’t let him/her get caught up in the pack.

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  99. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    slijmbal – it cracks me up that it needed to be researched.

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  100. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    colville – cheers :D

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  101. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    Scrubone I believe what is being argued for is status quo. There is already choice. In fact there are too many choices. And zones exist to make sure that, if you don’t like your choices or can’t get one of your choices (which may be the case with charter schools) there is always a default available

    finite resources to go around. Introduce more schools for the sake of it, everyone suffers. Give resources to already existing schools to introduce similar programs or increase theor teacher numbers or quality

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  102. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    “Scrubone I believe what is being argued for is status quo.” – so if youre brown, you should probably move to oz.

    i thought you pwogwessives like to be progressive.

    its always more funding ffs.

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  103. wally (65 comments) says:

    Lance: June 6th, 2013 at 11:25 am

    “The left are clearly shit scared this will work”.

    This sums it up nicely for me.

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  104. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    The Left is scared that their child hostages are being rescued.

    A good piece about how private schools are helping the poorest children in the World, damn them!

    http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/08/where-private-school-is-not-a-privilege

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  105. Scott Chris (6,133 comments) says:

    I also disagree with having smart kids in with thick shits.

    Why, were the smart kids mean to you?

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  106. OneTrack (3,088 comments) says:

    “Do these children REALLY think their role is to rule by decree, and communism is the answer to the country’s supposed “problems”??”

    Yes they do. They always did.

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  107. OneTrack (3,088 comments) says:

    “Those in favour of charters please elaborate on exactly how our system is one-size fits all.”

    Parents need an education option which focuses on reading, writing and maths ie things that will help them support themselves in the modern world. As opposed to the public education system that seems focussed on “diversity studies”, “enviro (aka recycling and gardening) and kapa haka.

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  108. OneTrack (3,088 comments) says:

    “Scott Chris (4,912) Says:
    June 6th, 2013 at 8:35 pm
    I also disagree with having smart kids in with thick shits.

    Why, were the smart kids mean to you?”

    Nah, I am old enough to have been in a streamed class. The teacher was able to focus on one set of ability levels, hence learning went a lot better and faster. Nek minnit, no streaming because of ideological reasons ( well, we are all “equal”) which means the teacher has to deal with at least three different ability levels. So, they end up having to focus(sic) on the top and the bottom, and the suckers in the middle get left to their own devices.

    It’s an obvious problem with an obvious solution. But we do have our ideology to bow to, don’t we?

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  109. doggone7 (801 comments) says:

    dime: “I don’t like the idea of tax money being spent on a school to indoctrinate kids with one particular brand of religion.”
    i dont like tax money being spent indoctrinating kids into socialism.

    Please list the schools indoctrinating kids into socialism and how they’re doing it. Also, if your kids are/were in that situation what the hierarchy of those schools said or did when you complained.

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  110. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    so if youre brown, you should probably move to oz.

    At what point did I say that? Pray tell?

    its always more funding ffs.

    At what point did I say that? Pray tell?

    Theoritical numbers: Let us a school costs $100M to run. $50M of that is buildings, maintenance, MOE costs. $50M of that is salaries.

    I’m building a new school. Let us say approx. half of that is from a private organisation in the case of a charter school.

    The other $50M must come from somewhere. Either it is taken away from existing schools (uh-oh) or the Government puts more in (oh looky it’s charter schools that are getting the “extra funding” that you look down your nose at, ffs) – ffs is for dramatic effect.

    And if we could our hands on that extra money why wouldn’t you just plough it into the already existing structures?

    Suppose there were some brand new programs and teaching methods that were revolutionary and were proven to make a difference to those that are ‘brown’? (in quote marks here as you seem to associate the colour brown with underachievement – not always the case – but don’t let me stop you). Those programs cost $25M

    What would you do and why? Spend $50M creating new schools & $25M on programs? Or spend $75M on those programs in existing schools?

    What’s the sensible decision, bang for your buck, Mr Business Man?

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  111. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    As opposed to the public education system that seems focussed on “diversity studies”, “enviro (aka recycling and gardening) and kapa haka.

    Couldn’t disagree more. But let’s just say that I did agree, for a fraction of a second. Hmmmmm…..

    Is this is so much better?:

    Partnership Schools|Kura Hourua can focus on a particular language, vocational pathway, or other specialist area such as the performing arts or science and technology. They can also apply a particular pedagogical philosophy, or adopt a faith or culture-based setting.

    For your aversion to kapa haka, you will notice that Partnership schools are already being called Kura Hourua, and that they can have a culture-based setting.

    I fail to see how introducing special topics of the environment, diversity, or kapa haka is any different from pedagogical philosophy, faith or culture. All are equally valid things to learn about on top of reading, writing and maths, which is what a state school does. It’s just that “environment”, “diversity” and anything Maori are dirty words to most of the commentators on this blog.

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  112. kiwigunner (230 comments) says:

    Here is one of those kids the state system is failing and that Banks, Parata and Key will save in the Charter Schools. Please remember they are here to save the 20%!

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/8761374/Ministry-backs-down-over-violent-boy

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  113. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    I doubt that the “Alternative Education Centre” = “Charter School”

    Partnership Schools|Kura Hourua will receive a per-student operating grant covering the resourcing components provided to state and state-integrated schools

    Yep, so same situation as state schools then. In fact worse probably, because they are “free” private schools. They can pick ‘n’ choose more freely than just sounding like a whinning teacher on the TV. Nup don’t want him, he’ll drive our roll numbers down and we’ll lose funding. This is a business, after all. Pretty much the same deal… …just in a more clinical fashion.

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  114. wrightingright (143 comments) says:

    campit and the rest like him are woefully ignorant of what ACT stands for, perhaps willfully so.

    Anybody who follows ACT knows their Education policy is one of their gems that they’re proud of.

    On the page campit linked to it is there plain and simple:

    “• Undertake a review of education in New Zealand, leading to the ACT Party’s minority report Free to Learn, a comprehensive roadmap for reforming education towards a more market-like and entrepreneurial service;”

    “”• Increase the subsidy for private schools, to reduce the extent to which those who send their children pay twice (once in taxes and once in school fees);”

    “• Increase the autonomy that local principals and staff have in running their school. Boards and principals should be able, for example, to set teacher remuneration at their discretion like any other employer, rather than having a rigid, seniority based pay scale;”

    “• Further increase the subsidy for independent schools so that parents who choose independent schools for their children do not lose so much of their child’s share of education funding;”

    Although for the true details you need to check out the speeches and press releases (this seems to be true with all the policy pages on the website, they just give a brief overview).

    http://www.act.org.nz/files/FREE_TO_LEARN.pdf

    http://www.act.org.nz/posts/topic/education?page=1

    Once you realise what ACT has been advocating for (and for a very long time too) it makes a few charter schools being implemented look like an extremely watered down proposal in comparison.

    The good doctor has written a response on this topic too.

    http://www.macdoctor.co.nz/2011/12/06/the-voice-of-unreason/

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  115. Honeybadger (209 comments) says:

    time will tell…..

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  116. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    wrightingright, as far as I can tell their complaint is that it doesn’t go far enough :)

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  117. MikeS (22 comments) says:

    “What I am looking forward to is being able to evaluate at the end of 2014 how each individual charter school has done.”

    How do you propose to do your evaluating? What data sets are you going to use?

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  118. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    University of Waikato education professor Martin Thrupp, who is leading a three-year study of six schools, said the standards were not national, and nor were they standard.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10889141

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