Good

July 25th, 2013 at 12:53 pm by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

has had an application to open a charter school declined by the Ministry of Education.

Church spokesman Richard Lewis said they were told on Tuesday evening the application to turn their existing private school into a charter school for years 1-13 had been turned down.

Good. I have no problem with religious groups sponsoring , and in fact many excellent schools in New Zealand have a religious element to them.

But Destiny Church is too cult like for me. There is a difference between a broad based religion and a cult. Destiny isn’t absolutely a cult, but it has cult-like tendencies.

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55 Responses to “Good”

  1. flipper (3,537 comments) says:

    Way to go, DPF.
    There are broad-based religions, and there are cults like Denstiny, and cults of another kind, like greenpeace, WWF, F & B et al-
    Excellent Min of Ed move.

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  2. lazza (358 comments) says:

    Cult? … Steady on “Slim Dave” … Try telling that! to the “BISHOP”!

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  3. Pete George (22,761 comments) says:

    Bishop Brian Tamaki ‏@BishopTamaki

    If any 4 of th successful Partnership Schools chosen by Hekia Parata are Weaker in Critique thn Destiny School then “Discrimination” happnd.

    That could depend on how ‘Weaker’ is judged.

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  4. dime (9,368 comments) says:

    im pretty sure greenpeace already charter schools :P

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  5. Honeybadger (148 comments) says:

    weaker would be judged by the ‘bishop’ would it not?

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  6. Honeybadger (148 comments) says:

    and I agree with the above, ‘cult’

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  7. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    Well, they haven’t done anything with the resource consent they were allowed to build with.

    Anyway, the middle class make me sick. Complain about a church wanting to work in the community but say nothing about the huge whore house in Akld city.

    Middle class priorities are failure big time

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  8. mavxp (493 comments) says:

    Excellent news. Can you imagine the nonsense that would be indoctrinated into young minds with NZ taxpayer funding?
    Creationism and other pseudoscience nonsense comes to mind [shudder].

    See Prof. Richard Dawkins excellent documentary on the problem of religious education on youtube.

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  9. RRM (9,428 comments) says:

    We finally got around to watching Sione’s 2 at the weekend.

    Tamaki is brutally lampooned, it was magnificent.

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  10. lazza (358 comments) says:

    Note on above Lazza (149) Irony Intended! OK … quote: … “”Cult? … Steady on “Slim Dave” … Try telling that! to the “BISHOP”! “”

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  11. SGA (802 comments) says:

    @DPF

    But Destiny Church is too cult like for me. There is a difference between a broad based religion and a cult. Destiny isn’t absolutely a cult, but it has cult-like tendencies.

    The difference being what – the number of members?

    Which of Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Exclusive Bretheren, or various YEC denominations should be allowed to open charter schools? Don’t get me wrong, I’m no fan of the Destiny Church and I’ll shed no tears over this decision, I’m just struggling to see what the acid test is for decisions of this sort..

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  12. Scott Chris (5,870 comments) says:

    There is a difference between a broad based religion and a cult.

    Is there? Pray tell…

    Fact is, every established religion was once considered by the establishment, to be a cult.

    I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

    And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God; begotten, not made; being of one essence with the Father; by Whom all things were made;

    Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from the Heavens, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man;

    And was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried;

    And arose again on the third day according to the Scriptures;

    And ascended into the Heavens, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;

    And shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end;

    And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life; Who proceedeth from the Father; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; Who spake by the Prophets;

    In One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

    I confess one baptism for the remission of sins.

    I look for the resurrection fo the dead,

    And the life of the age to come. Amen.

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  13. Pete George (22,761 comments) says:

    “weaker would be judged by the ‘bishop’ would it not?”

    I don’t think Tamaki would be an impartial judge of that. Having just suggested the possibility of discrimination suggests he’s already judged without having anything to compare against.

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  14. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    “I confess one baptism for the remission of sins.”

    One Christ for the remission of sins through His blood

    Revelation 1

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  15. Kleva Kiwi (281 comments) says:

    The fact that any sort of religion has a place in education is lost on me.
    Why are these brainwashing parasites let anywhere near our children?

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  16. Griff (6,706 comments) says:

    Not so good
    Home schooling is worse for the developing minds. Kept totally ignorant and feed superstitious nonsense. Mind washing kids is prevalent in most religious sects to some degree.

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  17. Sector 7g (236 comments) says:

    I will outline the definition for the majority of Socialists who plague NZ at present.

    Islam- Religion.
    Christianity- Cult.

    End of debate.

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  18. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Destiny Church is not more a cult than the Catholic Church and has done considerably less harm. Many Christians consider catholicism a cult and for well considered reasons. I believe Destiny has been singled out because it is perceived as right wing. I would also like to know who considers themselves qualified to make this call and what their religious views are.

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  19. Mark Thomson (85 comments) says:

    DPF: “Destiny Church is too cult like for me”

    And your personal feelings about other people’s religious beliefs are relevant to whether they should be allowed to run a school? One can only hope that the MoE’s evaluation was based on more objective considerations related to the effectiveness of their educational program.

    I’m no fan of DC… quite the opposite. But as long as they’re not operating outside the law, I also don’t think the state has any business passing judgement on anyone’s religious beliefs, or passing judgement on the basis of their religious beliefs. The only relevant criteria here are educational.

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  20. BlairM (2,286 comments) says:

    Props to Scott Chris for excluding the filloque from the Creed, as it should be.

    “I confess one baptism for the remission of sins.”

    One Christ for the remission of sins through His blood

    Revelation 1

    Mr Wikiriwhi, you accused me of being arrogant on your own blog for pointing out that the doctrine of Satisfaction is an innovation, and now you are rewriting the Creed? So you accept the Bible that these men put together, but not their statement of faith? Methinks you are confused. Especially for a King James traditionalist.

    As for the heretical Bishop unordained by anyone but himself, and his flock, I wonder what the reason was for the rejection? I hope it was some tangible standard they didn’t meet and not merely the fact that their brand of Christianity is smelly. Lord have mercy on them all, but the whole point of the charter schools is choice, including the choice to follow heretical Bishops.

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  21. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Cult of Roman Catholicism

    http://www.eaec.org/cults/romancatholic.htm

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  22. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,790 comments) says:

    So where can I find a list of organisations whose applications have been accepted?

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  23. Nigel Kearney (864 comments) says:

    If the existing school is unacceptable as a charter school then it should also be unacceptable for satisfying the legal requirement that parents provide their children with education. It’s not logical to say it’s fine for parents to send their kids there, fine for the parents taxes to be taken to pay for everyone else’s education, but not ok for anyone’s taxes to pay for that school. The charter school idea is doomed if the government can just cut off funding any time the parents make choices the government disagrees with.

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  24. scrubone (3,044 comments) says:

    I think DPF means “mind control cult”.

    A cult is a religious organisation that pretends to be a certain religion but denies fundamental tenants of that religion, such as JW’s or Mormons. It doesn’t necessarily mean they’re evil. Destiny crossed into being a cult when they started having people swear to obey Brian, since that is completely contrary to scripture. But they are not yet at the point where they have full mind control which is what people think of when they think of cults.

    See “Kingdom of the Cults”, it’s available for free download.

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  25. scrubone (3,044 comments) says:

    The fact that any sort of religion has a place in education is lost on me.
    Why are these brainwashing parasites let anywhere near our children?

    Think it’s something to do with fundamental human rights. You know, freedom to believe what you want without interference from the state so long as it’s within the law.

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  26. Griff (6,706 comments) says:

    A cult is a religious organization that pretends to be a certain religion but denies fundamental tenants of that religion, such as most Christan sects.

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  27. Kleva Kiwi (281 comments) says:

    “scrubone (2,548) Says:
    July 25th, 2013 at 2:39 pm
    The fact that any sort of religion has a place in education is lost on me.
    Why are these brainwashing parasites let anywhere near our children?

    Think it’s something to do with fundamental human rights. You know, freedom to believe what you want without interference from the state so long as it’s within the law.”

    But when the state funds the school doing the brainwashing, is that not interference?
    What about the states obligation to provide minimum standards of education for all?
    How can brainwashing someone to believe in sky fairies help them with maths?

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  28. BlairM (2,286 comments) says:

    Kea – more Jack Chick nonsense. The idea that Constantine invented Roman Catholicism is a Protestant myth. Most of the Holy Tradition of the Church was in place well before the 4th Century, in a way that was far more like Orthodoxy than any modern Protestant movement. You can easily prove this by looking at the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, who were never subject to any Roman Emperor of the East or West. Other than their liturgies (methods of worship) and their beliefs on the divine/human nature of Jesus, there is little deviation from that and the Orthodox Christianity subjected to Constantinople or (pre-schism) Rome. The idea that the Church was “corrupted”, an idea that Protestants use to justify their innovative theologies, does not bear up in light of history. If Catholicism is a “cult”, it became so after the Great Schism of 1054, not because some Roman Emperor hijacked it.

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  29. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    BlairM, my point is that, who decides what is a cult ? You may dispute it, but many consider the Catholic Church a cult. Just as you may consider some other followings to be cults. You claim it is a “Protestant Myth” but why should your construction of events be preferred over others ? See my point ?

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  30. mikemikemikemike (301 comments) says:

    I will assume that there is a detailed and objective reason on why this was rejected and it wasn’t based on on that simple fact that people don’t like the Tamaki clan. If the reason is based on the fact that MoE don’t like some religious aspects of the Destiny church because they find them disagreeable then as Islam is far more cult like that DC, I would hope that the Al-Madinah school also is rejected and I would expect Kiwiblog to issue a similar celebratory blog post (for consistency).

    DPF you are all about free choice, celebrating the fact the parents will be unable to make a choice on the education of their children goes against everything you claim to support. It might not be a choice you support or like but its their choice to make not yours.

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  31. scrubone (3,044 comments) says:

    But when the state funds the school doing the brainwashing, is that not interference?

    Much of the state’s funding of religious education is pragmatic, since not doing so would actually cost them more money.

    What about the states obligation to provide minimum standards of education for all?

    I’ve not problem with minimum standards, and I’m sure there’s a nice PDF somewhere on the internet that specifies them.

    How can brainwashing someone to believe in sky fairies help them with maths?

    How can brainwashing someone to believe in nothing help them with anything?

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  32. BlairM (2,286 comments) says:

    You claim it is a “Protestant Myth” but why should your construction of events be preferred over others ? See my point ?

    I see your point. The label “cult” seems to me to be arbitrary and a matter of semantics. But it’s not my construction of events, its verifiable from history. And we are all free to argue and put our case, and may the truth out from it.

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  33. lazza (358 comments) says:

    The differnces in religions, including many “cults” according to one English schoolboy, Quote: … “Some religions permit a man having more than one wife … the others allow only one. Its called monotony”.

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  34. LiberalismIsASin (288 comments) says:

    Strange man Richard Dawkins. He is as sure of himself as any backwoods fundamentalist.

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  35. Viking2 (11,125 comments) says:

    Fuck. really a cult.
    Well what about the Catholic church or the Muslim schools or the Anglican schools Brethren Schools etc etc.
    They are all cults one way or another.

    What about Maori schools. Are they not a cult of the stoneagers?

    So long as the kids are fed and happy and learn like they need to in a good enviroment then why shouldn’t any group be able to have a school?

    DPF is becoming more left by the day.m Next he will be joining the Democrats and supporting Obama.

    US citizenship coming in the post. :lol:

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  36. Huevon (184 comments) says:

    DPF, you may not like Destiny personally (I don’t either), but they have the right to speech, association, and educaiton as much as anyone else. This is a shameful decision by the Ministry of Education and makes me doubt (once again) whether NZ is honestly committed to universal values of human rights.

    The trouble with a universal state education system is that is becomes a “one size fits all” . Free human societies aren’t like that. Many Christians (in fact, anyone who subscribes to decent values) has deep reservations about public education in our country. But unless you are rich enough for a private school, you have no choice but to go to your local public school. Charter schools are supposed to address this problem.

    If you don’t like Christian schooling, then go to a public school. But why should you have things your way, and deny Christians the opportunity for their children to be educated according to their beliefs?

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  37. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    Excellent news. Can you imagine the nonsense that would be indoctrinated into young minds with NZ taxpayer funding?

    It would take some time to beat the crap that flows out of schools and universities presently.
    Oh, and the “young minds” are being indoctrinated anyway, what the hell is wrong with teaching them to read and write properly? Are you worried they will perform better than state schools (because they invariably will).

    Creationism and other pseudoscience nonsense comes to mind [shudder].

    Oh how terrible, imagine if they made a video from one of their prophets and managed to get it out of their school and into every other school in the country!! Oh it would be terrible if we lied to kids about ‘science’ and preached pseudo science as fact that had an influence over young minds and their developing world view.

    AL FUCKING GORE!!

    See Prof. Richard Dawkins excellent documentary on the problem of religious education on youtube.

    Oh I see, you attack one set of religious ideologues and then present one of your own in a vain appeal to authority.
    Richard Dawkins and his “project reason” buddies are the most dangerous thing to happen to humanity in a very long time, he is blinded by his hatred of half of humanity and can’t see past his own pathetic prejudice.
    I would sooner wipe my arse with stinging nettle than watch another one of his rounds of intellectual masturbation.

    I’m not a fan of Brian Tamaki, but this decision is as scary as the hell he preaches.

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  38. David Garrett (6,333 comments) says:

    Actually I think I am with the opposition on this one…I was once a member of a very large cult that believes and teaches its young members to eat something that has become the actual body and blood of its founder in his memory…They also condemn their female members to a choice between endless child bearing or dreadful sin, which gets them very offside with the Man in the Sky…That cult has a whole heap of schools. I’m not sure Bishop Brian’s sad deluded bunch could teach too much that’s worse…

    Do we know WHY the Destiny school application was declined? That knowledge might make this debate a bit more informed…

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  39. Kleva Kiwi (281 comments) says:

    Its not religion per-say I have the issue with.
    Its the indoctrination of children who don’t know any better. They are brainwashed when they are young to believe in mythical beings and cannot make an educated decision when they are old enough as to what is true and what is not.
    Religious kindys and primary schools should be illegal. Once children are heading to high school its a little different and most would have the ability to make their own educated decision at this point.

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  40. Monique Angel (251 comments) says:

    I went to the cult of AA for a while.*Cringe*
    Get a bunch of people together in a room and it’s amazing what proselytizing tripe can eventuate.
    This urge originates from the collective need to thwart hostile external and social environments but is redundant in today’s connected environment.
    Destiny is tits and has no place in educating/indoctrinating our young. Same for most other religions.
    *Drinks To That*

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  41. Scott (1,701 comments) says:

    The suspicion to me is that this is a highly political decision. When one sees that the organisation “family first” was deregistered as a charity by the charities commission because they opposed gay marriage, it is clear that the government departments have become highly politicised.

    Could it be that destiny Church just happens to be unpopular because it is Christian and also opposes gay marriage and other fashionable left-wing causes? I suspect to get charter funding if you were a Muslim school you would be approved. Because they are not Christian and for some reason Liberals just love Islam.

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  42. Nostalgia-NZ (4,898 comments) says:

    There is a fundamental distinction between AA for example and a cult. Invariably cults have someone ‘at the top,’ who benefit say as in a Ponzi or pyramid scheme – those characteristics are demonstrated in the DC. Others may have some experience with DC, mine however, has only been through people I know. A couple who in particular could be described as upwardly mobile by intention. One of the partners more so than the other always appeared opportunistic and therefore ready to buy the message of what hard work and donations would mean for them long term with his determination as a lay minister to move up the ladder in the Church. As inspiring message as it was for some years, then with a couple of mortgages to pay and the tithing, the subtle ‘demands’ on the children attending DC school and so on the message began to wear very thin. It may be nothing to do with the criteria to qualify as a charter school to be able to show an effective and transparent management of funds, but if it is that could be where the application fell over. If it did, or because of the obvious and very public image that the Tamaki’s in particular benefit disproportionately financially within the Church then it is, as DPF says – a ‘good’ decision.

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  43. Longknives (4,411 comments) says:

    My favourite Cult-

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  44. thor42 (903 comments) says:

    I support this decision – good to see it.

    There is one other group though that I would not like to see setting up charter schools – *Muslims*.

    Islam is at least as much of a “cult” as Destiny Church is. Ok, it is a very big cult, but size is only one measure of a cult (and the least important one, IMO).

    Charter schools are supposed to be centres of educational excellence, NOT centres of state-supported indoctrination and brainwashing.
    That is why I am against charter schools being set up by Muslims.

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  45. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    I certainly hope the Soka Gakkai are not allowed to set up a school..but they probably will be able to..They are foreign and prattle on about peace..They have Universities in the US. The Gakkai is most definitely a cult. Cults keep people busy all the time , keep people away from their families and non cult friends , then put all their efforts into brainwashing the people..There are quite a lot of Gakkai members in NZ..You may also know it as Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism..Mad max Jap dry boring sexist kind of military style org……Pure garbage.. Yes , they will be allowed to open a school!.!! Like many of these orgs , they grease around the politicians. Mind you it is hard to beat the mullahs for this.

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  46. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    One difference between the Catholics and the destiny cult, the Catholic schools have good teachers.
    Can one imagine some brainwashed hori trying to teach calculus to students, jesus the mind boggles at the thought.

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  47. SHG (360 comments) says:

    I can’t take credit for this (“you will, Oscar, you will”) but it’s bang on:

    In a cult there’s one person at the top who knows it’s a scam.

    In a religion that person is dead.

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  48. itstricky (1,539 comments) says:

    Good. I have no problem with religious groups sponsoring charter schools, and in fact many excellent schools in New Zealand have a religious element to them.

    But Destiny Church is too cult like for me.

    Until, of course, something not as cult like decides to open its door to public funds and public schooling. At which point DPF will be screaming blue murder – all based on his own personal preferences as to what is “good for society”

    This charter school thing – so much fun. It all makes so much sense. And, to borrow a conservative line – it’s your tax dollars that are going to all that time spent analysing this, and many other, applications. Good o.

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  49. thor42 (903 comments) says:

    @SHG – hey, that’s not bad!

    It’s a cult while the snake-oil salesman is alive, but as soon as he’s dead it becomes a “religion”. A very apt, concise and accurate summary!

    Islam is a classic example of this. If it had been founded just a few years ago, it would almost certainly be universally seen as a cult (with verses such as “kill the unbeliever, wherever you may find him.”)
    However, the passage of time has seen it somehow classified as a “religion” (when it would be much more accurately called an ideology/cult despite the demise of its founder).

    I am in fact working on a document at the moment that when it is finished will give overwhelming proof (mostly based on Islam’s own texts) that it is a combination of ideology and cult. There will also be some material in there that compares it with other ideologies and cults and shows how close the match is. (*Very* close in almost all cases).

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  50. big bruv (13,218 comments) says:

    “In fact many excellent schools in New Zealand have a religious element to them”

    That statement cannot be true. Any school which seeks to brainwash children into believing in the Sky fairy is evil.

    All religion should be banned from schools. While some will be terribly PC and say that religious teachings should be left to the parents or the church’s it is my opinion that this is just giving in to Middle Eastern superstition.

    The indoctrination of our kids (often by the use of fear) is something that should be stopped. As Hawkins says one can be a child of Catholic parents but that same child should never be allowed to be labelled as a “Catholic child”

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  51. Harriet (4,501 comments) says:

    Dave Garrett#

    “…..Actually I think I am with the opposition on this one…I was once a member of a very large cult that believes and teaches its young members to eat something that has become the actual body and blood of its founder in his memory…They also condemn their female members to a choice between endless child bearing or dreadful sin, which gets them very offside with the Man in the Sky…That cult has a whole heap of schools. I’m not sure Bishop Brian’s sad deluded bunch could teach too much that’s worse…”

    LOL Garrett…… you’ve got an 8th-century political ideology which wants to drag NZ down to its level.

    And National, Labour and the Greens are more than too willing to help by ‘tolerating’ them. Banks says fuck all too!

    Christians don’t cut off the ‘enjoyable’ bit of a women -or little girls- nor do they keep them covered when they go out.

    The Australian Federal police know EXACTLY where in Indonesia that the mothers take their 6yld NEW ZEALAND and Australian daughters to have their ‘clit cut’. That was reported in The Australian around Christmas time.

    Actually, about the very same time that you had something you wrote printed in the CH-CH press – 3 strikes or something or other. I read it when I flew out of NZ!

    Unlike you -by showing your concern about violence and it’s victims- both lots, the Muslims and the mobsters, appear to have very little in the way of Christian values.

    Your Christian background has done you no harm!

    BTW – sorry to hear about your ‘terrible’ upbringing – and the loss of your foreskin! :cool:

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  52. GJ (329 comments) says:

    SHG, yes I agree with you description of a cult and a religion, however you didn’t mention Christianity as in Christianity they don’t have a dead leader as the grave couldn’t hold him down, he is a risen leader. That’s pretty hard to compete with!

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  53. thor42 (903 comments) says:

    @big bruv – “All religion should be banned from schools.”
    I agree.

    If parents do happen to be religious, then they can always take their children to church. (Mind you – IMO that should be up to the child as to whether they want to go.)

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  54. doggone7 (677 comments) says:

    So 36 applications are in to run charter schools and four are going to be given the opportunity. The Destiny Church has been declined so conjecture starts about why they have missed out. No-one has knowledge of the four who will be given licences or the quality of their applications and their suitability. All the rabbiting on, all the knickers in a twist! All the guesswork, all the conclusions jumped to!

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  55. Griff (6,706 comments) says:

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/ED1307/S00136/need-for-transparency-over-charter-schools.htm

    In a ruling just released, the Ombudsman, Prof Ron Paterson, has found that the Ministry of Education had “no good reason” for refusing to release the names of organisations expressing an interest in setting up a charter school.

    The Ministry told the Ombudsman it plans to publish the names of the organisations on July 31st on its website, once final decisions on approved charter school applications have been made.

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