PM v Dotcom

July 4th, 2013 at 1:00 pm by David Farrar

Like many I watched the ISC hearings over the TV live-streams. Dotcom really made a speech more than a submission. New Zealand must be the only country in the world where a convicted criminal who is the subject of an extradition warrant to the US gets to debate security issues with the country’s Prime Minister for 25 minutes.

At least it was a step up from yesterday when the PM had to endure Penny Bright demanding that he hand over details of all his bank accounts to her!

The Herald reports:

Prime Minister last night described former Megaupload tycoon as a “conspiracy theorist” after the internet mogul again claimed that the Prime Minister knew about him before his Coatesville mansion was raided in January 2012.

Mr Dotcom called the bill that Mr Key is promoting “morally indefensible” and said that, in reality, NZ’s foreign spy agency was a subsidiary of the National Security Agency (NSA) in the United States.

Mr Dotcom told TV3 last night that he would produce evidence during his extradition hearing to the US that Mr Key had lied about not knowing of him before the raid.

That hearing could be next year.

Earlier, Mr Key told reporters that Mr Dotcom “is a well-known conspiracy theorist. He has never ever found a piece of evidence to support that.”

Dotcom has been claiming for almost a year to have this evidence. If he had it, I have no doubt that he would have released it by now. There is no court rule that prevents him.

Near the end of the 20-minute session, Mr Shearer asked Mr Dotcom if he thought Mr Key had known about Mr Dotcom before the raids.

Mr Key said he hadn’t. “You know I know,” Mr Dotcom said.

“I know you don’t know actually, but that’s fine,” Mr Key said.

“Why are you turning red, Prime Minister?” Mr Dotcom asked.

“I’m not. Why are you sweating?”

“I’m hot.”

That was comic.

There were some useful submissions that day from other submitters on important issues. KDC’s submission was not one of them.

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112 Responses to “PM v Dotcom”

  1. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    Surprised “I’m not/I’m hot” is not a meme yet.

    Also, somebody take this sideshow and put it out to pasture. I no have no interest in Kim Dotcom’s ego.

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  2. Redbaiter (9,123 comments) says:

    John Key’s behaviour at the GCSB inquiry yesterday while Kim Dotcom was addressing the committee was a display of appalling arrogance and condescension.

    He is a smug smarmy controlling prick, and if this is the way he behaves at National Party caucus meetings I am amazed they put up with it. They must be a collection of weak yes men and women.

    I guess his so called “popularity” as leader makes it difficult for National to do much even if they wanted to, but this is a mistake. That Key appeals to low information left wing voters is no real benefit to National.

    After watching the videos of the inquiry, on TV3 and TV One, its fairly clear that the arrogant buffoon Key is leading National’s tragic slide to the left. For all his “popularity”, it is clear the guy is an extremely destructive force to NZ and the National Party.

    The Nats need to dump him and so does the country. Just an arrogant leftist buffoon who should never ever have even joined National let alone be its leader. With his smug arrogance and his leftist/ progressive political leanings he is a natural for the Labour party.

    Watch the videos and you will see what I mean.

    Its so irritating to see the dumb complacency of NZers who are blindly sucked in by Key’s “disingenuous” political act. Smiling and waving while he fucks this country in a manner not much different to the way Helen Klark fucked it.

    IMHO, just a useless progressive prick, and most of the low information left wing mungbeans who support him can’t even say why thye do.

    Secondly, what’s with John Banks sitting as one of the 5 members? This guy has no integrity left at all. A disgrace that such a sleaze bag sits on a committee of such import.

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  3. Mike Readman (363 comments) says:

    Why is the extradition hearing taking so long? Any reason at all for the delay?

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  4. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    There were some excellent submissions made before Dotcom, and he helped by attracting attention to the afternoon. but after his go the media got a bit obsessed with him.

    I’ve been collating GCSB news reports and links to submissions at https://www.facebook.com/GcsbWatch

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  5. BeaB (2,125 comments) says:

    But do we ever hear, even on our taxpayer-funded media, any discussion on when it is right for a country to spy on its own citizens, how much it would cost us to replicate the GCSB’s technology for the police, what the issues really are?

    Of couse not. They are too busy wetting their knickers with St John Campbell chasing after stunts, sideshows and Herr Schmalz.

    We deserve so much better. No wonder the media are in their death throes.

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  6. Redbaiter (9,123 comments) says:

    John Key is gone as PM if Dotcom’s allegations that Key knew about the spying are proved to be true.

    National supporters need to stop hating the messenger and listen to the message.

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  7. BeaB (2,125 comments) says:

    Redbaiter
    Don’t hold back. Understatement just undermines your argument..

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  8. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Dotcom keeps pwning NZ politicians. You’d think they’d have the wit to realise he plays too hard for them.

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  9. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    “John Key is gone as PM if Dotcom’s allegations that Key knew about the spying are proved to be true.”

    If.

    Let’s see the proof.

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  10. RRM (9,933 comments) says:

    Is there some rule making it compulsory for the PM to be the Minister who’s responsible for all the Government secret intelligence whoflungdungs?

    New Zealand is such a peacenik, civil libertarian type country, you know that anything in the news about spying and secret intelligence gathering is always going to bring absolutely every nutter out of the woodwork, from Minto and Auckland mayoralty Candidate Penny Bright right down to the soap dodgers in the Abel Smith Street nut house.

    Why would JK choose that? Surely one of the perks of being the boss is you get to delegate some of the sh!t work like that to someone else?

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  11. Redbaiter (9,123 comments) says:

    BeaB- You have to forget about Kim Dotcom’s leftist leanings and left wing leeches like John Campbell and the rest. This is about serious government over-reach and spying on NZ citizens. Kim Dotcom has done nothing to warrant such widespread public hatred, that is mostly generated by National party/ Key supporters.

    I do not agree with a lot of what Kim Dotcom says but he is right on the spying issue and there should not be law change (as John Key wants) making what they did to him legal.

    Listen to the message.

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  12. peterwn (3,277 comments) says:

    “New Zealand must be the only country in the world where a convicted criminal who is the subject of an extradition warrant to the US gets to debate security issues with the country’s Prime Minister for 25 minutes.”

    This is downright surreal and makes New Zealand look a laughing stock among other nations’ leaders and their security services.

    On the other hand giving people a fair go is typically ‘Kiwi’ and John Key is right up with it.

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  13. sparky (235 comments) says:

    It sickens me the way the media, flock around this known sweaty criminal Dot.Com, and believe his every word. John Key handled himself well. Norman and Shearer were not interested in the GCSB, they were there simply to berate the Prime Minister. Shearer’s question, is what created the circus, with his do you believe that John Key new of you earlier. What did that have to do with the Dot.Com submission. Dot.Com’s submission was a speech all about himself. Norman would of carried the blob out on his shoulder if he could of, he was crawling so much to him. There were some very good submission’s, but Dot’Com’s was not one of them, I agree. The media have a lot to answer for.

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  14. DylanReeve (166 comments) says:

    The end is nigh! I just largely agreed with a post by Redbaiter (except for the sliding to the left stuff).

    Key’s condescension and arrogance drives me crazy. It’s terrible and it was very clearly on show yesterday.

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  15. DylanReeve (166 comments) says:

    It’s freaking me out that the poster I’m agreeing with most in this thread is Redbaiter.

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  16. Manolo (13,840 comments) says:

    Ah, the arrogance of power! All too visible in Neville’s Key case.

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  17. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    “John Key is gone as PM if Dotcom’s allegations that Key knew about the spying are proved to be true.”

    I wonder if Dotcom learnt tnt how to play accusation politics off Winston Peters – who was playing accusation politics on Firstline this morning, he said so little of substance they didn’t post a news item about it. Like Dotcom, Peters implied he would drag it out forever if he can get away with it.

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  18. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    Key’s blokey down to earth one of us character comes through when things are going his way but when he’s not getting his way – and he obviously isn’t on his GCSB bill – he can be really cranky. And there’s been plenty of cranky from him this week.

    He often assesses issues and is usualy adept at taking a pragamatic approach. But maybe the GCSB is too much his own thing where no one, not even his Cabinet, gets much if any say.

    He certainly isn’t comfortable with being challenged on anything GCSB. If he shows too much of his other side people may start to turn off him – there are signs it could be happening already.

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  19. Cunningham (844 comments) says:

    Redbaiter what do you actually want? You think National need to go because they don’t have far right policies (of course they should be governing for you because you obviously know everything) so you want them gone. OK, so you would be happy if Shearer and Comrade Norman took over? FFS think about what you are saying.

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  20. Ross12 (1,432 comments) says:

    ” I do not agree with a lot of what Kim Dotcom says but he is right on the spying issue and there should not be law change (as John Key wants) making what they did to him legal.”

    I might have heard it wrong but I thought John Key said the raid on KDs has was illegal under the old law and would still be under this law.

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  21. RRM (9,933 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson (737) Says:
    July 4th, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    Dotcom keeps pwning NZ politicians. You’d think they’d have the wit to realise he plays too hard for them.

    :neutral: pwning?

    Ur powers of pwnage are too awesome for us Tom.

    Dotcom is 1337 H4x0r! ph3@r him j00 ph00l5!

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  22. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    And yeah, most of what Red says is reasonable and correct. It’s not about going left, but otherwise pretty much on the mark.

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  23. Cunningham (844 comments) says:

    That fat German needs to either say what he has or just stop the BS. First we have to listen to Winston going on and on about the email evidence he supposedly has (even though he obviously doesn’t) and now KDC. It is getting very tiresome just like the whole GCSB subject. How long does the MSM have to go on and on about this? I would be my left nut that most people actually don’t give a shit.

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  24. Redbaiter (9,123 comments) says:

    Cunningham- “FFS think about what you are saying.”

    I have thought about it, and I came to the decision long ago that it is fruitless to continue to support National because they are a little less destructive than Labour.

    John Key just does not have it, and his support for granting greater powers to spy agencies is just another demonstration of his ideological confusion. Food in schools, light rail, anti-internet bullying laws, redefining marriage, global warming, anti-smacking, the TOW scam- just all left wing crap and those are only a few examples.

    I want small weak government, and if National are intent on providing the exact opposite, then why the hell should I support them?

    I want a PM that convinces people that voting for left wing policies is wrong, not a PM who introduces left wing policies so left wingers will vote for him.

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  25. Cunningham (844 comments) says:

    Red who the fuck are you going to support then????? Who do you think will govern if National aren’t there? National may not be perfect but they are doing a pretty good job. You will be screaming like a pig after 3 years of Shearer and Norman. How do you think they will be under Greens/Labour? It will be a painful lesson for us all. Your ‘little less destructive’ comment will seem stupid once they screw NZ completely.

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  26. Redbaiter (9,123 comments) says:

    “It will be a painful lesson for us all.”

    You hit the nail on the head right there Cunningham.

    It will be painful but it appears as if that is the only way NZers can learn, and only after then will they ditch the delusions of socialism and racism/ separatism and elect a party that promotes small government and individual rights and responsibilities.

    My view is simply this- We need to undergo the lesson rather than continue to vote for a party as spineless and ideologically lost as National under John Key.

    Let’s get on with the lesson is what I say.

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  27. Wayne91 (142 comments) says:

    Red Baiter “John Key’s behaviour at the GCSB inquiry yesterday while Kim Dotcom was addressing the committee was a display of appalling arrogance and condescension.”

    Maybe – but that was far better than the self serving, media darling German crimminal deserved from our Prime Minister.

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  28. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    Ah, things are back to normal, I’ve stopped agreeing with Red.

    He seems to be getting a bit Pol Potish again.

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  29. flipper (4,084 comments) says:

    Putting aside all the vaudeville bullshit, the fact is that we (the people) know nothing concrete upon which to base views for or against the GCSB/SIS/Police / Def Force legislation.

    For years all we have had is a “it is not in the national interest to discuss… etc, etc, etc” response to enquiries. BULLSHIT!

    But, how do we know that Key,, or Clark, or Shipley, or Bolger, or Moore, or Palmer, or Langer, or Muldoon et al. were ever told the truth (that is to say the whole truth) about SIS matters?????

    Having been accidentally, and by pure chance, on the fringes of the Kroger case and its links to NZ, I know that the SIS under Keith Holyoake were professional, courteous, and very, very thorough. Were they bullshitting Ministers? I do NOT know. But I do know that openness engenders trust. Secrecy destroys it.

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  30. Kimble (4,440 comments) says:

    That Key appeals to low information left wing voters is no real benefit to National.

    Yeah, who needs the support of those swing voters who usually support your opposition?

    I want small weak government, and if National are intent on providing the exact opposite, then why the hell should I support them?

    Because they are centre-right, not left-wing, and demanding that all your ideals are realised or you will support the other guys is the sort of thing only a stupid, petulant child would do.

    You are never going to be happy in a democracy, so drop the pretense. The world in which your ideals are realised is one much worse than another three consecutive Labour/Greens governments.

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  31. david (2,557 comments) says:

    If the PM had appeared even remotely interested in what the fat german had to say, he would have been slaughtered for it. His disinterest was appropriate and studied. Remember that it is a Committee and whatever comes out of it will not just be John Key’s view. Frankly I would find a procession of predictable twats like Key had to face over those 2 days so boring that I too would have found it hard to remain interested and would have appreciated the opportunity to lighten it up a bit.

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  32. Redbaiter (9,123 comments) says:

    “that was far better than the self serving, media darling German crimminal deserved from our Prime Minister.”

    No, no matter who he is he should be treated with respect and civility.

    The committee must be objective and interested most of all in truth.

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  33. dime (9,980 comments) says:

    i cant wait to see that giant fatty shipped off to the states. hes gonna look hilarious in a giant orange jump suit.

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  34. Kimble (4,440 comments) says:

    But I do know that openness engenders trust. Secrecy destroys it.

    Absolute openness makes trust irrelevant. If you know everything, you have no need to trust anyone.

    So secrecy is vital in order for trust to exist.

    How much secrecy? Well, that’s open for debate. This debate.

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  35. Cunningham (844 comments) says:

    Red a far right government will NEVER govern in NZ. It is as simple as that and you are dreaming if you think it will happen.

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  36. Redbaiter (9,123 comments) says:

    Kimble- “You are never going to be happy in a democracy, so drop the pretense.”

    Not true. I would be quite content if National just stood by their founding principles-


    “To promote good citizenship and self-reliance; to combat communism and socialism; to maintain freedom of contract; to encourage private enterprise; to safeguard individual rights and the privilege of ownership; to oppose interference by the State in business, and State control of industry”.

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  37. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    Putting aside all the vaudeville bullshit, the fact is that we (the people) know nothing concrete upon which to base views for or against the GCSB/SIS/Police / Def Force legislation.

    For years all we have had is a “it is not in the national interest to discuss… etc, etc, etc” response to enquiries. BULLSHIT!

    Yep, this is the crux of it. I won’t just trust Key and leave it to him to deal with as he sees fit.

    Key has to earn the public’s trust. To begin to do that his proposed legislation needs to be much more clear about it’s intent.

    And then it needs to be very clear about what spying is allowed, who can be spied on, in what circumstances it can be done, by whom, with whose authorisation.

    And then there needs to be a watchdog established that has the resources to act effectively on behalf of the people’s interests, and not allow the spies or politicians whims and workarounds.

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  38. davidp (3,581 comments) says:

    I don’t understand why Labour are opposed to the legislation. It removes any doubt in the law that GCSB is alllowed to assist the Police when the Police are acting with a warrant. If GCSB assisting Police is illegal or immoral, then why did Helen Clark, the last Labour Government, and Clark’s minions like Grant Robertson break the law and act immorally over an extended period? If they’re arguing that GCSB support for the Police has always been illegal, then they should all offer themselves up for prosecution and a spell in prison.

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  39. flipper (4,084 comments) says:

    Kimble…
    Yep, but as you say, that is the problem.
    It is a matter of trust. When trust in one issue is destroyed, what about others?
    That is rather like the consequences, overblown for sure, of a criminal convictions, is it not?

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  40. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    DPF,

    New Zealand must be the only country in the world where a convicted criminal who is the subject of an extradition warrant to the US gets to debate security issues with the country’s Prime Minister for 25 minutes.

    So what?

    What are these “security issues” by the way?

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  41. Scott Chris (6,155 comments) says:

    Why would JK choose that? Surely one of the perks of being the boss is you get to delegate some of the sh!t work like that to someone else?

    Strong leadership.

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  42. Redbaiter (9,123 comments) says:

    “a far right government”

    You only perceive what I want as “far right” because of your deep and lengthy immersion in the slowly warming waters of socialism. This country has been taken far far to the left but so incrementally that you don’t even realise it.

    National today are probably further left than Labour in the sixties. The principles above are not “far right”. The problem is that you are extreme left and you don’t even know it.

    How can people vote for anything different when the two major political parties are almost the same? Thatcher and Reagan led the people from the mire of the left and we need a similar visionary to lead National.

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  43. Wayne91 (142 comments) says:

    Dime “i cant wait to see that giant fatty shipped off to the states. hes gonna look hilarious in a giant orange jump suit.”

    And I hope they take the cost of the 3 seats required to fly him to the USA out of his frozen ill gotten gains.

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  44. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    What are these “security issues” by the way?

    We have to protect the country against potential events like the Boston bombing.

    You know, where the NSA, CIA, FBI and Boston police failed to prevent a terrible act of violence despite the biggest surveillance capabilities in the world.

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  45. MT_Tinman (3,205 comments) says:

    BeaB (1,654) Says:
    July 4th, 2013 at 1:11 pm
    But do we ever hear, even on our taxpayer-funded media, any discussion on when it is right for a country to spy on its own citizens, how much it would cost us to replicate the GCSB’s technology for the police, what the issues really are?

    Yes.

    In fact recently on a very irrelevant radio program it was stated as exactly twice the cost of the current set-up.

    The GCSB, apparently, supply a service to various other agencies negating the need for those agencies to purchase duplicate equipment (and of course operators of said equipment).

    Basically, I figure if I have to pay to be spied upon, which I obviously do, I’d rather pay only one outfit rather than several so go the GCSB.

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  46. MT_Tinman (3,205 comments) says:

    Wayne91 (102) Says:
    July 4th, 2013 at 2:15 pm
    Dime “i cant wait to see that giant fatty shipped off to the states. hes gonna look hilarious in a giant orange jump suit.”

    And I hope they take the cost of the 3 seats required to fly him to the USA out of his frozen ill gotten gains.

    I’d rather they made the bastard (and his seppo minders) walk.

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  47. infused (656 comments) says:

    Redbaiter makes a good point re sticking to core values.

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  48. Kimble (4,440 comments) says:

    Not true. I would be quite content if National just stood by their founding principles-

    You would prefer an opposition with which you fully agreed, to a government with which you mostly agreed.

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  49. Cunningham (844 comments) says:

    Pete George (18,158) Says:
    July 4th, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    “We have to protect the country against potential events like the Boston bombing.”

    Not just that Pete. How would people against this feel if a group of Kiwi citizens planned a terrorist attack say in the middle of Sydney from NZ? If we are a soft option why wouldn’t they? We may not be the target but I am sure kiwis would feel pretty bad if Kiwi citizens planned it here and we didn’t have effective mechanisms in place to try and stop them.

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  50. Wayne91 (142 comments) says:

    MT_Tinman (2,320) Says: “I’d rather they made the bastard (and his seppo minders) walk.”

    Yeah good point – they wouln’t have to use the GCSB to track him – Im sure he would talk underwater all the way – just follow the bubbles.

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  51. markm (114 comments) says:

    Redbaiter why dont you go back to the standard and leave this one , and raise the IQ of both

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  52. MT_Tinman (3,205 comments) says:

    Wayne91 (103) Says:
    July 4th, 2013 at 2:39 pm
    MT_Tinman (2,320) Says: “I’d rather they made the bastard (and his seppo minders) walk.”

    Yeah good point – they wouln’t have to use the GCSB to track him – Im sure he would talk underwater all the way – just follow the bubbles.

    A win-win when you think of it soberly Wayne (which will have to be tomorrow unfortunately).

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  53. Nookin (3,361 comments) says:

    “You know, where the NSA, CIA, FBI and Boston police failed to prevent a terrible act of violence despite the biggest surveillance capabilities in the world.”

    I think there is a distinction between the point when a potential risk is identified and the point when they know that they can go one step further and intervene. There are numerous examples of making the call at the right time.

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  54. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    Cunningham (509) Says:
    July 4th, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    Not just that Pete. How would people against this feel if a group of Kiwi citizens planned a terrorist attack say in the middle of Sydney from NZ? If we are a soft option why wouldn’t they? We may not be the target but I am sure kiwis would feel pretty bad if Kiwi citizens planned it here and we didn’t have effective mechanisms in place to try and stop them.

    Paranoid much? And exactly how is the GCSB going to stop them? Too many people watching James Bond movies.

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  55. Wayne91 (142 comments) says:

    Actually I couldn’t give a rats arse if the GCSB found me worthy of surveillence – what the hell would it matter. I think we get a bit precious and paranoid over this. And that paranoia is whipped up by socialists, cummunists (greens) activists and anarchists who perhaps dont want to have some of thier dubious activities monitored.

    Let alone a potential terrorist threat. Just because we havn’t had one doesn’t mean to say we wont.

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  56. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    @Cunningham

    How would people against this feel if a group of Kiwi citizens planned a terrorist attack say in the middle of Sydney from NZ? If we are a soft option why wouldn’t they?

    How much surveillance do you think is necessary?
    How high is the risk?
    What are the chances of detecting it?
    What are the chances of an attack that isn’t planned over phones or the internet?

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  57. DylanReeve (166 comments) says:

    If the PM had appeared even remotely interested in what the fat german had to say, he would have been slaughtered for it. His disinterest was appropriate and studied.

    Bullshit. Key’s arrogance and contempt was similarly on display for other submitters including the excellent Thomas Beagle.

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  58. Cunningham (844 comments) says:

    Pete do we really want to take any risk at all? As long as there is sufficient oversight what really is the problem? I am not paranoid and I admit it is unlikely but I would rather it was in place just in case.

    I just can’t for the life of me see the problem with this bill. No one can actually come up with a reason why we should have duplicated intelligence resources. It won’t change anything but will just mean we have 2 places with the same sort of intelligence resources rather then just one. What does it achieve????

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  59. Redbaiter (9,123 comments) says:

    “Key’s arrogance and contempt was similarly on display for other submitters including the excellent Thomas Beagle.”

    What about Key’s pathetic argument that storage of personal data by the spy agencies was similar in intent to Kim Dotcom’s Megaupload service, or whatever the hell Key meant?

    Completely ignoring the fact that the data the government spy agencies obtained was illegal. What an arrogant buffoon.

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  60. DylanReeve (166 comments) says:

    Not just that Pete. How would people against this feel if a group of Kiwi citizens planned a terrorist attack say in the middle of Sydney from NZ? If we are a soft option why wouldn’t they? We may not be the target but I am sure kiwis would feel pretty bad if Kiwi citizens planned it here and we didn’t have effective mechanisms in place to try and stop them.

    And just how far should we take it then? Default surveillance on everything?

    It’s never going to be possible to catch everyone.

    If Police/SIS/GCSB actually have reasonable grounds to suspect a person and apply for an interception warrant then so be it, no one is really going to object to that (unless we end up like the US where the approval is effectively an automatic rubber stamp).

    Also this idea that Metadata isn’t communications and should be available without due process is also absurd. John Key even inadvertently highlighted the frivolity of that by speaking of some teenager accessing bomb making websites. Looking at something isn’t evidence of intent – the danger of metadata is that is doesn’t tell the full story.

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  61. Wayne91 (142 comments) says:

    The whole thing is a beat-up, I will be glad when the bill is passed and 99.9999% of the population conitnues thier lives as normal.

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  62. lastmanstanding (1,297 comments) says:

    If we are honest ALL the pollies would like to have ALL the powers the new GCSB Bill offers and more. ALL want the power to spy on their enemies and so called ‘enemies of the State’

    When Klark/Kullen were in power I regularly could hear the ‘clicks” on my phone and I KNOW ‘THEY” were watching me thru my Webcam.

    That’s why I used to pull funny faces at them.

    That’s why we have to do all we can to keep the bastards in check. Give these bastards an inch and they will take a miles.

    ALL of them.

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  63. Wayne91 (142 comments) says:

    Actually – this farcial public inquiry has saved a lot of leg work for our spy agencies – If I was them I would start surveilling all submitters

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  64. In Vino Veritas (139 comments) says:

    Redbaiter. It would appear to me that the only person that will be “gone” is Herr Dotcom after his extradition hearing.

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  65. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    Wayne91 (106) Says:
    July 4th, 2013 at 2:49 pm

    Actually I couldn’t give a rats arse if the GCSB found me worthy of surveillence – what the hell would it matter.

    What the hell does privacy matter at all? Do you believe in limiting the power of the state or do you trust them unequivocally?

    Information is increasingly the most powerful currency in the world. 90% of all the data the world has ever created was created in just the last two years. In the next two years we will create even more. We will connect even more devices to the internet. Eventually even your body will be connected directly to the internet. Even now you walk around with a tracking device in your pocket. The data that will be created is not just trivial information, it increasingly paints a very detailed and intimate picture of our lives.

    I don’t want to live in a world where anyone who upsets the powers that be can be silenced by the threat of revealing personal information, whether that be an affair or something they said in private, or any number of things that people prefer to keep to themselves.

    I simply will never trust an organization that operates in secrecy and the public is never permitted to question what it does but simply takes it on faith alone that they are there “for our protection”.

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  66. Wayne91 (142 comments) says:

    Weihana – No I dont trust them unequivocally, however Im not going to live my life paranoid about big brother watching me. Life is to short and fun to be anxious/paranoid about such things.

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  67. Scott Chris (6,155 comments) says:

    some teenager accessing bomb making websites. Looking at something isn’t evidence of intent – the danger of metadata is that is doesn’t tell the full story

    Yeah maybe, but a teenager frequently visiting bomb making sites, extremist blogs and farm supply stores may be worth keeping tabs on.

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  68. Sir Cullen's Sidekick (891 comments) says:

    Tory Bros – Just chill out and hear me out.

    Dotcon has proof. He is waiting for the right moment to release it which is next year during election campaign. He must have shown that to the vultures of the left – Shearer, Norman and Peters. They all are waiting for the election campaign to get into full gear, John Key will be riding high in opinion polls – close to 50% and all set to win the 2014 election hands down….then there will be a Campbell live show where Dotcon will appear along with Shearer, Norman and Peters. Dotcon will show a video where John Key addresses GSCB staff and makes a fleeting statement about Dotcon in some other context. The garden gnome Campbell will say that that is a proof that Key knew and all the four will nod their heads in agreement. Then the garden gnome will make statements about how John Key lied to the people and how that affected the petrol prices world wide and also devalued the NZ dollar. He will also give examples of how the house prices went up in Auckland due to John Key lying about Dotcon. GAME OVER. Election lost.

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  69. Cunningham (844 comments) says:

    Sir Cullen’s Sidekick (192) haha yep I can definitely see that happening!!

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  70. Wayne Mapp (67 comments) says:

    Hey Red, news just in. National doesn’t want your support.

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  71. davidp (3,581 comments) says:

    SCS>He will also give examples of how the house prices went up in Auckland due to John Key lying about Dotcon. GAME OVER. Election lost.

    Peters was banging on months ago about how Key must have heard about the German criminal. Peters’ “proof” seemed to amount to the fact that Dotcom lives in Key’s electorate. As far as I can see, Dotcom has a super-sized Aaron Gilmore complex. Gilmore couldn’t believe that a waiter didn’t know who he was. Dotcom couldn’t believe the PM didn’t know who he was.

    But, at the end of the day… who cares? The US Government applied for extradition. The Police obtained and executed the warrant. If Key had exchanged a few words with Dotcom at the Helensville Countdown one weekend then that isn’t going to keep Dotcom out of jail. Even if the Police informed Key that they were watching Dotcom months before the raid, it still isn’t going to make a difference at the extradition hearing.

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  72. OneTrack (3,121 comments) says:

    So Dotcom’s presentation was basically the long version of “Don’t you know who I am”?

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  73. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    @wayne91

    however Im not going to live my life paranoid about big brother watching me. Life is to short and fun to be anxious/paranoid about such things.

    So you won’t be paranoid about the very slight chance that a terrorist attack would be detected before it happened by scanning humungous amounts of private data on the internet?

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  74. DylanReeve (166 comments) says:

    Yeah maybe, but a teenager frequently visiting bomb making sites, extremist blogs and farm supply stores may be worth keeping tabs on.

    So then how do we find them? Do we simply open up all communications for the SIS or GCSB to trawl for possibly suspicious activity? Someone has to be watching to know this teenager is doing that. Should everyone be watched in case they do something that could be deemed suspicious?

    What about if posting comments on Kiwiblog one day gets deemed suspicious behaviour?

    Should police be able to install GPS recoding device in all vehicles so they can catch drivers who drive above the speedlimit? Also useful for seeing if there is a pattern of suspicious travel (perhaps a mosque, then a hardware store, then a farm supply store?) That’s all just metadata.

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  75. tom1980 (44 comments) says:

    I’m getting thoroughly sick of this self-righteous German hijacking NZ politics to save his own skin.

    He has made a fortune out of helping people to violate copyright. He deserves what’s coming to him in the US.

    Ship him off there now to take responsibility for his actions. Let’s see whether the US media is as readily manipulated by him as the NZ media has been.

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  76. Sidey (250 comments) says:

    So can we assume that the posters here who are the most opinionated about this issue, either way, took the opportunity to make a submission and /or requested to be heard (assuming that’s the process)? Perhaps they lobbied their local MP? Anything at all other than log onto a blog for a good ol’ whinge?

    If you’ve taken no real action to have input into the process, you can’t really care that much about it. Having a moan to a bunch of strangers with no influence (sorry to break it you guys out there!) probably won’t change much. Unless you think the policy makers take their cue from reading a few select blog comments. Now that would be scary.

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  77. thedavincimode (6,803 comments) says:

    Amen tom1980

    The whole raid caper was way OTT, but I’m getting sick to death of the lard-arsed kraut crook. As someone said earlier, looking forward to seeing him being squeezed into the orange jumpsuit. Hopefully a team of machinists are already engaged in sewing a couple of orange parachutes together in order to accommodate him.

    Just to put the whole thing into perspective though, it’s interesting that MSM seem to be showing far more interest in this fat prick than they did in the innocent victims caught up in the Urewera raids.

    Gosh, why could that be?

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  78. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    He has made a fortune out of helping people to violate copyright.

    Really? You are aware that there is a difference between copyright violation and fair use, aren’t you?

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  79. Keeping Stock (10,342 comments) says:

    Redbaiter said

    - You have to forget about Kim Dotcom’s leftist leanings and left wing leeches like John Campbell and the rest. This is about serious government over-reach and spying on NZ citizens. Kim Dotcom has done nothing to warrant such widespread public hatred, that is mostly generated by National party/ Key supporters.

    I do not agree with a lot of what Kim Dotcom says but he is right on the spying issue and there should not be law change (as John Key wants) making what they did to him legal.

    Listen to the message.

    Since when has Dotcom been a New Zealand citizen Reddie? You’re talking bollocks again. That will also be an ever-so-slight impediment to him contesting the next election.

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  80. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    “the very slight chance that a terrorist attack would be detected”

    Here’s a question Pete. How many terrorist attacks does Great Britain detect and foil, versus how many do actually succeed?

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  81. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    The sooner this German sideshow is extradited to the USA to face justice the better.

    When he was looking around for a bolthole to run to he noticed how easy it was for a prick like Bill Lui to
    donate a few bucks to buy politicians like Dover Samuels and Shane Jones (maybe silent T as well)
    he thought, ” Now here is a country I can use.”

    Giovani de Steffano had the whole country jumping through hoops a few years ago and his wealth
    was just a con.

    Pablo Escobar could have bought citizenship here judging by the way legions of sheeples can be conned
    by a few dollars and a fireworks display.

    Lets pray that Dotcons reign as puppetmaster of New Zealand ends soon.

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  82. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    Also, folks, remember we’re not just talking about terrorism here. Espionage is a (probably remote) possibility, but cyber crime may possibly be of concern to one or two of you …

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  83. stateless (9 comments) says:

    I’m confused why the GCSB has any domestic surveillance capabilities as these should be for the SIS only as they are responsible for protecting us from domestic threats and the GCSB should be a foreign intelligence agency only, like monitoring communications going in and out of New Zealand and protecting our foreign assets (people/buildings/communications/etc).

    Just my thinking.

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  84. thedavincimode (6,803 comments) says:

    cyber crime

    Which blogs have you got in mind graham?

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  85. Redbaiter (9,123 comments) says:

    “Hey Red, news just in. National doesn’t want your support.”

    Hey Wayne, guess what. They don’t want yours either, and I’d guess that hurts you a lot more than it bothers me.

    But there’s more to this Wayne, and that is you are more to blame for this far left balls up that some people call a government than anyone because it was during your time at the helm that most of the damage was done. You just lay down and let the left walk all over you in the worst and most gutless submission to the commies for some time.

    You never gave a damn for those valuable founding principles. You forgot all about them, and took the country so far left you made the job of anyone seeking to return to them so much harder. Just a disgrace and a NINO. You’re out of it now Wayne, and you did all of that damage, so what you should do now is stay the hell out of it and STFU.

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  86. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    If it’s just blogs being targeted thedavincimode, I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.

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  87. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    I don’t know graham.

    How many terrorist attacks terrorist attacks does Great Britain detect and foil by means if electronic intercepts, versus the total number detected and foiled?
    How many more terrorist attacks has Great Britain had versus New Zealand?
    How more likely is Great Britain to be a terrorist target versus New Zealand?

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  88. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    All these people calling Dotcom a giant fatty , the fat German etc seem to forget one thing. Who let him in here? He paid ten million dollars to get residency..If you glorify wealth however it has been obtained , you get what you deserve..NZ is a bit like a prostitute. You can’t have your cake and eat it too..Let wealthy foreigners waltz in with their millions , no questions asked and then have a hissy fit when they don’t do what you want them to.
    I thought Dotcom sounded very reasonable on the radio this morning. Key is nasty when he is not winning but then I have never been big on immature men.

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  89. Scott Chris (6,155 comments) says:

    Do we simply open up all communications for the SIS or GCSB to trawl for possibly suspicious activity? Someone has to be watching to know this teenager is doing that.

    Data mining

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  90. Viking2 (11,491 comments) says:

    The obsesiveness of people with Dotcom is amazing. The issue here is about Kiwi’s and the amount of surveillance that is granted to the GCSB on behalf of other agencies.
    Where does the snooping start and end and who has oversight of the particular snoop from any given agency of the Govt.

    It seems that many more enlightened people are seriously questioning the extent of the power involved and the extent of the ability of the PM to nominate just any old outfit to be added to the list of agencies.
    That list is not defined in any way, so we could concievably see Dept.’s like IRD, DOC, Customs,Education, Health all added to the list of entitled agencies at the PM’s whim, with nil oversight.

    What concerns me is that none of the agencies concerned have been keen appear to want to justify to the public of NZ why these powers are necessary. Jacqui Dean won’t even ask the to appear at the select committee to put their case to Kiwi’s. Why should the police, etc not state their case for Kiwi’s to consider?

    Now where have we seen this before?
    Well the USA is donkey deep in this crap and Key is chugging along arse sniffing them.
    Where are the constitutional rights of Kiwi’s protected in all this?

    I think that the worst feature of yesterday was that Key had a chance to seriously question a person who knows probably more about the Internet and how it can be used and probably also how to disguise your way around. He has the knowledge and the contacts that can produce that knowledge but Key decided to behave like a bully becuase he hasn’t been able to get his way with the courts et al and deport Dot com on the false premise of trumped up yankee doodle charges, at the behest of the film and music industries. Industries that continue to behave like entitled dinasours.

    Shameful really. But not surprising as I have seen bankers treat many people this way when they no longer want to talk to them. They become decidedly unpleasant. Indeed almost sneering.

    There should be no doubt that we need to have systems in place. The world is less of a nice place and not getting better but lets have Kiwi’s know what the rules and the Governance is and lets make sure that it’s in the interest of Kiwi’s and those of us who have citizenship and pay taxes to fund this.

    So far I have seen litlle to inspire any confidence that we will actually finish up in a safe place with this.

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  91. OneTrack (3,121 comments) says:

    “Pete George (18,162) Says:
    July 4th, 2013 at 6:36 pm
    I don’t know graham.

    How many terrorist attacks terrorist attacks does Great Britain detect and foil by means if electronic intercepts, versus the total number detected and foiled?
    How many more terrorist attacks has Great Britain had versus New Zealand?
    How more likely is Great Britain to be a terrorist target versus New Zealand?”

    Completely off topic but, How many more muslims has Great Britain versus New Zealand? Never mind, we are doing our best to catch up.

    So, in summary Pete, you are saying you want to see some bodies first?

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  92. OneTrack (3,121 comments) says:

    Keeping Stock – “Since when has Dotcom been a New Zealand citizen Reddie? You’re talking bollocks again. That will also be an ever-so-slight impediment to him contesting the next election”

    The anti-Key media don’t seem to draw any distinction between citizens and residents. As far as I can see as soon as their foot touches ground they are considered a “kiwi”, effectively devaluing the term of any meaning.

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  93. Yoza (1,879 comments) says:

    I don’t understand the spurious argument that we need to be subject to a ubiquitous surveillance apparatus to prevent a Boston Marathon type of bombing here. Edward Snowden has already demonstrated that NSA surveillance was every where all the time leading up to the Boston bombing and the security apparatus there was unable to prevent it or even remotely aware it was in the planning, even with warnings from Russian agencies about the main perpetrator.

    The best way of preventing the sort of terrorism carried out in the Boston Marathon bombings would be to avoid participating in slaughtering Muslims in US led attacks against relatively defenseless countries.

    I’m half expecting bhudson to turn up and demand everyone here stop posting on this subject as this is of no interest to ‘the New Zealand public’.

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  94. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Yoza, the purpose of the argument is to make state protection look like a good idea. The argument fails because the state was to a large degree responsible for the event itself.

    To paraphrase Edmonds: though the collusion with radical Islam had been going on for decades, it wasn’t until 1996 that a formal decision was made by NATO to abandon their previous secret relationship with neo-Fascists and arch-Nationalists and replace them with Islamists.

    http://wideshut.co.uk/gladio-b-the-origins-of-natos-secret-islamic-terrorist-proxies/

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  95. niggly (830 comments) says:

    I can remember back in the 80’s some people were concerned that Libraries (and Librarians) knew what books people borrowed and civil libertarians, hard-lefties, anarchists and hard-righties were aghast (and this all pre-dated computerised library records too)! Their concern? A bunch of mild, meek & geeky librarians knowing their habits and “exposing them”!

    I can remember in recent years that the same sorts of people were aghast about the likes of Flybuys, Eftpos, reward schemes etc. Their concern a bunch of marketers can predict people’s shopping habits and “target” them for more propaganda to make them spend more!

    Roll-on to today, has anything changed? Nope the same sort of paranoid people are getting all excited and waiting for the sky to fall down.

    Meanwhile intelligence agencies must be somewhat amused by all these sideshows and shouting, as they try and get on and watch out for real cyber-terrorists, organised crime and traffickers, anti-state activists and paranoid nutcases. Sheesh!

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  96. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Niggly, the point is that (according to Russ Tice) the NSA has been targeting judges and politicians including Obama, which puts the NSA in a strong position to blackmail these people. Ken Livingstone has described a similar situation with MI5.

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  97. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Can someone tell me what the name of the site is where you put bets on this type of thing?

    I’ve never placed one before, but this could be a winner – the problem is, I guess the ‘favourite’ won’t be paying much.

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  98. Yoza (1,879 comments) says:

    “Meanwhile intelligence agencies must be somewhat amused by all these sideshows and shouting, …”

    Completely wrong there niggly. The whole idea of the secret security apparatus is the need to remain out of public scrutiny. This is why large swathes of the main stream media attempt to sideline public attention by concentrating on superfluous personalities while avoiding shining light on the issue those personalities have brought to the public’s attention.
    In the case of New Zealand Kim Dotcom allowed us to be aware of the illegal surveillance activities of the GCSB and in the US Edward Snowden drew attention to the dubious surveillance activities of the NSA.

    A relatively unaccountable secretive agency that gathers and stores every electronic communication anyone anywhere employs is a million miles from librarians monitoring book borrowing or corporations gathering consumer information.

    Although, it is interesting you believe those who should be subject to the attention of the secret police include “…anti-state activists and paranoid nutcases…”. In a country that likes to promote a facade of being free and democratic, like New Zealand, wouldn’t being anti-state or paranoid be acceptable forms of political expression – or do you subscribe to the North Korean concept of freedom of expression where you are allowed to freely express yourself as long as those expressions conform to official state doctrine?

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  99. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    “Pete George (18,162) Says:
    July 4th, 2013 at 6:36 pm
    I don’t know graham.”

    Then how can you talk about “the very slight chance that a terrorist attack would be detected” if you don’t know?

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  100. Yoza (1,879 comments) says:

    Yes, Ugly Truth, I have heard of the Gladio project. To be honest I never really bothered to spend a lot of time looking into it as it seems almost banal having to point out its existence to anyone.

    It is like having to demonstrate the CIA’s involvement in narco-trafficking gangs throughout South and Central America or the various secret police agencies using businesses and NGOs as fronts for clandestine operations.

    It only makes sense that these people will do whatever they can get away with to maintain a system that preserves the status and influence they are currently allowed to wield.

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  101. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    OneTrack (600) Says:
    July 4th, 2013 at 7:16 pm

    “So, in summary Pete, you are saying you want to see some bodies first?”

    We have already had bodies.

    Ernie Abbott, killed on 27 March 1984 by a bomb at Trades Hall, in Vivian Street, Wellington.
    Neil Roberts, killed in his own suicide bomb attack on 18 November 1982 in a failed attack against the Wanganui Computer System.
    Fernando Pereira, drowned during the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior.

    We have also had a number of bombings that luckily did not kill anybody. There was something like 13 bombing attacks against military bases and other sites such as the Auckland Supreme Court and the offices of the newspaper Truth as protests against the Vietnam War in 1970.

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  102. Reid (16,523 comments) says:

    Yoza if you knew of a cabal of evil bankers plotting to steal money from poor Maori, widows and children and use the takings to fund blackmail operations against leftist politicians by getting them to make public statements that convinced their voters they were mental so they would never be elected, would you approve of those bankers being surveiled?

    If terrorists disguised as old ladies were able to enter the country because no-one was allowed to surveil them, which group of children would you prefer to see killed? Would it be a group of children in Remuera, or a group of children in Otara?

    Do you approve of the UKUSA agreement aka Five Eyes?

    If UKUSA was under threat by leftist politically correct naive fucked in the head la la land legislative proposals, which side of the argument would you be on and why? If you say you’d be on the leftist side, what would the ramifications be, if NZ was forced out of UKUSA? (I know what they are, I just want to know if you do.)

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  103. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    it seems almost banal having to point out its existence to anyone

    Obvious for some, tinfoil hat territory for others. What is new here is the reaction of the US state apparatus, implicitly confirming its existence and also moving against the source of the information.

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  104. Yoza (1,879 comments) says:

    Judith (3,269) Says:
    July 4th, 2013 at 8:00 pm
    “Can someone tell me what the name of the site is where you put bets on this type of thing?”

    Most betting sites require you to open an account and the minimum is usually $10-$20 NZ. One of the best sites for this sort of thing in New Zealand is iPredict. It has been a while since I used my account there, but I am fairly certain the minimum amount required to start ‘betting’ is $20 (officially it is not a gambling site as you are supposed to accept the fiction that you are investing in various stocks). It is a fun site to play on.

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  105. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    graham – when I said i don’t know I was referring to your question about Great Britain. I don’t know much about terrorism in Great Britain, it’s on the opposite side of the world to where I live. I’ve never been there.

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  106. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Yoza (482) Says:
    July 4th, 2013 at 8:34 pm
    ————————-

    Thanks for that Yoza. I couldn’t remember the name of it. There are no doubt a few interested in this one – and its more entertaining than Corro street.

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  107. niggly (830 comments) says:

    Niggly, the point is that (according to Russ Tice) the NSA has been targeting judges and politicians including Obama, which puts the NSA in a strong position to blackmail these people. Ken Livingstone has described a similar situation with MI5.

    UT – could you post the links to those two articles please? I’ll reserve judgement until I’ve read them for context etc. Thanks!

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  108. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Niggly, the full interview with Russ Tice is available on James Corbett’s site.

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  109. campit (467 comments) says:

    There were some useful submissions that day from other submitters on important issues. KDC’s submission was not one of them.

    Look at his written submission then, which makes the following useful points:

    – More time should be taken to consider and debate this Bill and the related Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill (TICS Bill).
    – The extreme general expansion of the GCSB’s powers is not justified.
    Spying on New Zealanders is unwarranted without adequate safeguards, which the Bill does not provide.
    – The ability of the GCSB to share New Zealanders’ private information with anyone the Prime Minister decides, in New Zealand or overseas, is far too wide.
    – Proposed amendments to related legislation should be enhanced to provide adequate oversight of the GCSB’s operations.

    We think that if the ability for the GCSB to carry out surveillance on New Zealanders is retained in the Bill (which we oppose) then further checks and balances need to be instituted at the warrant issue stage. Rather than the Prime Minister and his appointed Commissioner, we would recommend the required approval of a court and an independent and/or Parliamentary committee. This would be equivalent to more stringent protocols in other jurisdictions, such as the USA.

    In the USA, the NSA does not have a ministerial authorisation regime for the issuing of warrants for surveillance inside the US, and must instead obtain a judicial warrant from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court or failing that, a specialist review court. Furthermore, the NSA’s activities are subject to external scrutiny and oversight from both the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence which are each made up of members of the Majority and Minority.

    Care to discuss the substantive issues?

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  110. Yoza (1,879 comments) says:

    Reid (13,700) Says:
    July 4th, 2013 at 8:23 pm
    “Yoza if you knew of a cabal of evil bankers plotting to steal money from poor Maori, widows and children and use the takings to fund blackmail operations against leftist politicians …”

    There is. They are not evil, they are amoral. Organisations like the NSA ( or in New Zealands case the GCSB) exist to protect their incredible wealth and influence from the social and economic disasters the wielding of that wealth and influence cause.

    “If terrorists disguised as old ladies were able to enter the country because no-one was allowed to surveil them, which group of children would you prefer to see killed? Would it be a group of children in Remuera, or a group of children in Otara?”

    As long as the terrorists are disguised as old ladies I’m ok with them running amok in Remuera and Otara. Although, I would be a little creeped out if those same terrorists disguised themselves as the Teletubbies.

    “If UKUSA was under threat by leftist politically correct naive fucked in the head la la land legislative proposals, which side of the argument would you be on and why?”

    The terrorists disguised as old ladies running amok in Remuera and Otara’s side, because terrorists that disguise themselves as old ladies and run amok in Remuera and Otara deserve my respect and support.

    “If you say you’d be on the leftist side, what would the ramifications be, if NZ was forced out of UKUSA? (I know what they are, I just want to know if you do.)”

    Well obviously, without the support of the US and the UK, New Zealand would slip beneath the waves and become known as the Atlantis of the South Pacific.

    Reid, I do hope posting comments on Kiwiblog helps with your therapy.

    Interesting to note that Google has reservations about the crap Key and his cronies are attempting to force down our throats: Google has warned that new spy laws introduced by the Government could result in communications companies quitting New Zealand or scaling back their operations.

    The company has joined a list of critics, from Telecom and Kim Dotcom’s Mega to the Law Society, in raising concerns about the Telecommunications Interception Capability and Security Bill, which is in front of Parliament’s law and order select committee.

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  111. Scott1 (552 comments) says:

    I think for the most part it is much more boring than that.
    GCSB and NSA exist to spend their budgets. The more money and power you give them the more they will do but that doesn’t mean they will achieve anything extra.

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  112. Scott1 (552 comments) says:

    It might be better if the police or another body directly had he ability and tools to spy and breach your privacy than if the GCSB/NSA has it – because the police can’t pretend they have to keep secrets from the people who are supposed to be overseeing them for national security reasons (like the head of the NSA must have felt when ‘being untruthful’ under questioning by congress).

    Then the scope of activities the GCSB/NSA have to lie about should strictly remain within a certain scope – i.e. not include hunting paedophiles side jobs for foreign and local police etc, and only cover things like collecting blackmail data from foreign diplomats and protecting our advanced nuclear weapon technology.

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