Will Street drop euthanasia bill?

July 17th, 2013 at 3:00 pm by David Farrar

Isaac Davidson at NZ Herald reports:

Labour MP is under pressure to drop a member’s bill which would legalise because her party is concerned it could be a negative distraction in the lead-up to the general election next year.

If Ms Street’s End of Life Choice Bill was pulled from the ballot, the debate could extend into election year, and some Labour MPs felt this could hurt the party’s run for Government by distracting from its main policies and deterring more conservative voters.

Ms Street said that several colleagues had discussed with her what would happen if the bill were pulled from the ballot in 2014.

I think they are more worried that the euthanasia bill could help the Conservative Party make 5%.

Personally I’ll be very disappointed if Maryan does drop the bill. I think we inflict some terrible suffering on people by not allowing them to opt for euthanasia.

If she does drop the bill, then maybe a Green Party MP can pick it up?

At present, there are 69 members’ bills in the ballot. Nine members’ bills were still waiting for a first reading, so another ballot was unlikely to be held until the end of the year.

Not quite right. Once the number awaiting first reading drops below eight, then another ballot is held. I expect another ballot in August, say September at the latest.

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82 Responses to “Will Street drop euthanasia bill?”

  1. Pete George (22,760 comments) says:

    “If she does drop the bill, then maybe a Green Party MP can pick it up?”

    If Labour wimp out I hope Greens do pick it up, they usually have more guts than Labour on things like that,

    Labour worrying about this bill is like the captain of the Titanic worrying about the band playing an inappropriate tune.

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  2. Zebulon (67 comments) says:

    I am opposed to euthanasia and Labour having any involvement with this bill makes the chance that I will vote for them = 0

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  3. Pete George (22,760 comments) says:

    Zebulon – if Labour cease to have any involvement what is the chance you might vote for them?

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  4. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    The good ole ‘hide the ideologue’ trick to avoid scaring the horses.

    It’s a f@cking shame the NZ public are seen as being there to be manipulated instead of represented.

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  5. Grendel (950 comments) says:

    the only reason they want it removed is because everyone will be pointing out how once its passed we can use it to stop the suffering of the labour party, who are clearly living in pain and need help to just die.

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  6. berend (1,631 comments) says:

    DPF: I think we inflict some terrible suffering on people by not allowing them to opt for euthanasia.

    You’d think? Who is going to the granddad and grandmum killing David?

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  7. Cunningham (811 comments) says:

    I think it is appalling they are even considering dropping it. Grow a pair FFS and stand up for your principles.

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  8. Pete George (22,760 comments) says:

    Cunningham, Labour’s principles may have already been euthanased.

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  9. Fletch (6,004 comments) says:

    Belgium is the second country to allow euthanasia apart from Holland. It was legalized in 2002.
    Since then, there has been a 5000% increase in those being euthanased.

    In 2012, the number of euthanasia cases in Belgium increased by 25%, from 2011 reaching a record level of 1,432 since the practice was legalized in the country in 2002 (original source here).

    The Federal Control and Evaluation euthanasia (FCEE), in publishing the data, is now considering to extend the right to citizens who suffer from degenerative mental illnesses like Alzheimer’s and also children.

    A recent FCEE report on euthanasia in Belgium on 2010 and 2011, unfortunately available only in French, details the longer term trends since legalisation.

    The upper line in the graph above is the total of euthanasia cases reported to the commission and shows an increase from 24 cases in 2002 to 1,133 in 2011 – a stunning overall increase of 4,620% in just ten years! If we include the 1,432 figure for 2012 the increase is well over 5,000% in eleven years. 

    http://pjsaunders.blogspot.co.nz/2013/04/stunning-4620-increase-in-belgian.html

    That seems like a lot of people to me.
    And now they are considering allowing it for children.

    The Belgian Federal Parliament is reportedly about to expand its controversial “right to die” policies to include access to euthanasia for some gravely ill children.

    A consensus among members of the legislative body has reportedly formed in support of legislation to allow children to choose to undergo euthanasia in certain dire cases, according to a report in the Belgian daily newspaper Der Morgen, as translated by the Paris-based news agency Presseurop.

    If child euthanasia is legalized in Belgium, the country would become the first in the developed world to have a law on the books allowing the practice, although the Netherlands has since 2005 not prosecuted doctors who perform euthanasia on some minors as long as the doctors act in accordance with a set of medical guidelines dubbed the Groningen Protocol.

    Belgium became the second country in the world after the Netherlands to legalize euthanasia in 2002, but the statute currently extends only to people 18 or older.

    The bill, introduced by the Socialist party in December, would lay out guidelines for doctors to decide on a case-by-case basis whether or not a child is mature enough to make the decision to end his or her own life, as well as whether a child’s health is grave and hopeless enough to warrant euthanasia.

    http://www.ibtimes.com/belgian-parliament-posed-approve-child-euthanasia-law-1301825

    ‘Introduced by Socialists’ – no surprises there then. Why is it these people seem consumed with killing? Whether it is abortion or euthanasia, and it is usually the most helpless – the youngest or oldest. This engenders a general disrespect for life, so that I do not think it is any surprise that people in modern society think nothing of killing another person if they get into a fight or confrontation. In the past someone might have got into a fight at a bar or a party and walked away with a bloody nose, but now it is common to kill the other person. We are becoming an unfeeling society. A human being is not a dog or a horse that you shoot to put it out of its misery.

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  10. graham (2,214 comments) says:

    It does seem a bit gutless of Labour to drop the bill purely because they’re worried about their political image. Although I disagree with euthanasia in general, I would expect a party to stand by it’s principles.

    I also hope that if this bill does eventually make it through, it is treated as a conscience issue and enough politicians have the guts to vote how they truly feel. Not how the polls lead them to believe they “should” feel.

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  11. Judith (7,487 comments) says:

    I think this is more than just an issue of left or right, it is one that concerns all New Zealanders.

    I am all for controlled informed euthanasia. It is a criminal offence to let my dog suffer, but its illegal to support a loved one that wants to end their own suffering, to die.

    It should of course, only be a last option, when all other avenues have been explored, but it is the ultimate human right to be allowed to make your own decision to die in comfort and without pain.

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  12. Cunningham (811 comments) says:

    Fletch

    “This engenders a general disrespect for life”

    People whom this bill is aimed for do not have a life. They are often in terrible pain with no option but to wait for death. You think it is uncaring yet you are happy for these people to continue on in this state for as long as it takes before they pass away? Even if death is immenent? Doesn’t sound very caring to me.

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  13. Pete George (22,760 comments) says:

    I agree graham, except that on an issue like this MPs should vote how their constituents feel, as much as possible.

    It deserves a decent and fair debate with as much public input as possible.

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  14. slightlyrighty (2,496 comments) says:

    Fletch is right, a human being is not a horse or a dog that we put out it’s misery. Human Beings must suffer until the very end so that the sensibilities of a few adherents to doctrine are not offended in any way.

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  15. labrator (1,745 comments) says:

    The Federal Control and Evaluation euthanasia (FCEE), in publishing the data, is now considering to extend the right to citizens who suffer from … … children.

    Poorly written sentence!

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  16. Cunningham (811 comments) says:

    slightlyrighty (2,274) good comment!

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  17. Fletch (6,004 comments) says:

    Cunningham, slightlyrighty- I know you probably will not understand this, but there is value in suffering.
    That does not mean that I think it is good for a person to be in pain or that I want any person to suffer.
    Being a Christian, as I am, I believe Christ redeemed the world through suffering.

    Not only that but it brings people together in a special way. Here I will link to a comment by Kiwi In America from 2010 on Kiwiblog (I hope that is OK with him/her) that speaks of the experience they went through with their mother – LINK

    With the palliative care we have these days, pain can be largely handled.
    I’m not saying I don’t understand where people are coming from – I do. I wouldn’t want to see my own parents or family suffer, but I know for sure they would not want to be euthanased.

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  18. eszett (2,332 comments) says:

    Fletch (4,484) Says:
    July 17th, 2013 at 4:06 pm
    Cunningham, slightlyrighty- I know you probably will not understand this, but there is value in suffering.

    You are welcome to suffer all you want, Fletch.

    That doesn’t mean you have the right to prevent means to end the suffering of others if they wish to do so.
    I know you will probably not understand this, either.

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  19. eszett (2,332 comments) says:

    Fletch (4,484) Says:
    July 17th, 2013 at 4:06 pm
    Cunningham, slightlyrighty- I know you probably will not understand this, but there is value in suffering.
    …….
    With the palliative care we have these days, pain can be largely handled.

    And why would you want to handle pain, when there is such value in suffering?

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  20. slightlyrighty (2,496 comments) says:

    Fletch.

    For every person against euthanasia, they can point to a situation that promotes their cause, such as your link to Kiwi In America.

    My position, that being a person who has nothing to look forward to but intolerable suffering should have the right to end it, rather than prolong it is based on my own deeply personal experience. I believe there is value in recognising that when we have an ability to end such suffering, yet do not do so, we put our own needs ahead of the one that we love, and would dearly love to keep, but need to let go.

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  21. MT_Tinman (2,985 comments) says:

    I speak only for myself.

    I certainly hope that when my time comes someone puts me down.

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  22. Griff (6,706 comments) says:

    there is value in suffering.
    it brings people together in a special way
    With the palliative care we have these days, pain can be largely handled.

    Sick religious nutjobs.

    Can take their suffering for Christ and stick it up their local priests arse.

    Fuck off god struck idiots.

    let us die with dignity.

    You can practice self Flagellation all you like.

    Don’t include the rest of us in your sicko religion inspired abuse.

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  23. Matthew Percival (16 comments) says:

    I am perplexed at Labour’s proposed opposition to this.

    They were evidently happy to allow a Labour MP’s bill to legalise Gay marriage but they aren’t happy for a Labour MP’s bill on euthanasia to be debated?

    DPF if anything was going to give the Conservative Party a boost it’s gay marriage, euthanasia would come a distant second in that race.

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  24. LiberalismIsASin (288 comments) says:

    Gay marriage, euthanasia, abortion. Makes me realise the nazi’s may as well have won the war.

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  25. nasska (10,622 comments) says:

    Griff

    Spot on!

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  26. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    ‘Introduced by Socialists’ – no surprises there then. Why is it these people seem consumed with killing? Whether it is abortion or euthanasia..

    The worst of all are Christians. The conservative christians in the state of Texas ban abortion but cruelly kills hundreds of prisoners. It is typical of christian thinking.

    Not surprising when you read about their god and his lust for death and suffering. Get off your high horses religious freaks. You are not superior and are among the worst of people. You should be grateful your atheist superiors tolerate your dangerous ignorance.

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  27. Scott (1,701 comments) says:

    It’s just amazing to me that major things like this-euthanasia,gay marriage-major institutional redefinition of basic building blocks of our society are able to come in through private members bills? In a democracy you would expect they would be the subject of a party manifesto that the electorate can vote on in a general election. If Labour is so keen on this they should run on it in the next election.

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  28. Fletch (6,004 comments) says:

    Gay marriage, euthanasia, abortion. Makes me realise the nazi’s may as well have won the war.

    That is what my elderly mother says from time to time. All the things the Nazis were doing that we were fighting against are now accepted in everyday society. Population control by eugenics, euthanasia, contraception, abortion etc.

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  29. Fletch (6,004 comments) says:

    Link to a screenshot of Hitler’s euthanasia decree –

    Hitler’s 1939 decree, increasing “the authority of certain physicians to be designated by name in such manner that persons who, according to human judgment, are incurable can, upon a most careful diagnosis of their condition of sickness, be accorded a mercy death.” (From the records of the Nuremberg Trial’s International Military Tribunal)

    http://www.euthanasia.com/hitlerletter.html

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  30. Fletch (6,004 comments) says:

    More interesting finds.
    This time a statement by The Australian & New Zealand Society of Palliative Medicine Inc after a programme aired on TV3 called ‘Fixing To Die’ in 2011 that presumably supported euthanasia.

    ANZSPM Aotearoa (NZ Branch) has issued a media release in response to the New Zealand TV3 Prime Time program featuring the story ‘Fixing to Die’, which aired last night.

    The Australian and New Zealand Society of Palliative Medicine Inc., (ANZSPM), believes that the practice of euthanasia and assisted suicide are outside the discipline of Palliative Medicine. The Society endorses the New Zealand Medical Association’s Position Statement on Euthanasia, and similarly the World Medial Association’s which state that euthanasia and doctor-assisted suicide are unethical. This position is not dependent on euthanasia and doctor-assisted suicide remaining unlawful. Even if they were to become legal, or decriminalised, the NZMA would continue to regard them as unethical.

    http://www.anzspm.org.au/c/anzspm?a=da&did=1000948&pid=1344214576

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  31. gump (1,474 comments) says:

    @Fletch

    “With the palliative care we have these days, pain can be largely handled.”

    —————-

    And when the pain cannot be handled? What then?

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  32. Fletch (6,004 comments) says:

    For more info, check out http://www.euthanasia.com/

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  33. Tom Jackson (2,458 comments) says:

    Gay marriage, euthanasia, abortion. Makes me realise the nazi’s may as well have won the war.</blockquote

    Yes, the Nazis were famous for promoting the interests of homosexuals.

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  34. OneTrack (2,578 comments) says:

    Scott – ” If Labour is so keen on this they should run on it in the next election.”

    But the people are too uneducated and might not appreciate the virtue of their progressive ideas. The left just say they believe in democracy. They don’t actually believe in democracy, especially when it doesn’t go their way – the asset sales whinge and the GIR – “Greens Initiated Referendum” being a recent example of this. The Greens (and other lefty parties) just could not cope with the concept that the voters of New Zealand voted for a party that clearly campaigned on this policy. So their approach was basically screw what the voters voted for, and they were going to do their level best to obstruct and waste as much resources as possible opposing it. Wasting public money to do so – so much the better.

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  35. berend (1,631 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson: Yes, the Nazis were famous for promoting the interests of homosexuals.

    I suppose you think that’s not true? How come some prominent Nazis were homosexuals? A think not mentioned: the Nazis hated Christianity as well, another trait shared by the supporters here of the right to kill mum and dad.

    If your life is so terrible you’d rather have your children kill you, one wonders what the value is of being an atheist. Must be terrible if you want to escape it as soon as allowed by law.

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  36. OneTrack (2,578 comments) says:

    Wonder what would happen if Shearer told her to drop it :-)

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  37. nasska (10,622 comments) says:

    berend

    As an atheist you know that when your time is up that’s it. If I’m so spaced out or gaga that I can’t make the decision & act to end my own life when & if pain becomes unbearable then I sure hope that someone has the gumption to pull the plug.

    The no hopers who bang on about dying with dignity, pain adding meaning to life, God’s wishes, blah blah blah, can die screaming in a soundproof room if that’s their bag providing that they don’t disturb the rest of us. I’m not dictating the terms of their exit from life so why can’t they piss off & leave me to go as I wish when I wish?

    It’s none of their bloody business!

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  38. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    I think we inflict some terrible suffering on people by not allowing them to opt for euthanasia.

    I think the only ‘thing’ inflicting anything on anyone is the realities of life and death on planet earth. To go against the fundamentals of life itself is worthy of more discussion than the simplistic pro euthanasia propaganda pushed forward for discussion to date.

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  39. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “the Nazis hated Christianity”

    Sorry about the long post, but I want to expose the lies of Christians about this once and for all.

    “The anti-Semitism of the new movement (Christian Social movement)
    was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

    “I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty
    Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord’s work.”

    [Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

    “I have followed [the Church] in giving our party program the
    character of unalterable finality, like the Creed. The Church has
    never allowed the Creed to be interfered with. It is fifteen hundred
    years since it was formulated, but every suggestion for its
    amendment, every logical criticism, or attack on it, has been
    rejected. The Church has realized that anything and everything can be
    built up on a document of that sort, no matter how contradictory or
    irreconcilable with it. The faithful will swallow it whole, so long
    as logical reasoning is never allowed to be brought to bear on it.”

    [Adolf Hitler, from Rauschning, _The Voice of Destruction_, pp. 239-40]

    “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
    fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded
    by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and
    summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest
    not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian
    and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord
    at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the
    Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight
    against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with
    deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact
    that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As
    a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have
    the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is
    anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is
    the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty
    to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and
    work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only
    for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning
    and see these men standing in their queues and look into their
    pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very
    devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two
    thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people
    are plundered and exposed.”

    [Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922, countering a
    political opponent, Count Lerchenfeld, who opposed antisemitism on
    his personal Christian feelings. Published in "My New Order", quoted
    in Freethought Today April 1990]

    “I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of
    the Almighty Creator.”

    [Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46]

    “What we have to fight for…is the freedom and independence of the
    fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission
    assigned to it by the Creator.”

    [Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 125]

    “This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the
    practical existence of a religious belief.”

    [Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.152]

    “And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his
    estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove
    those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God.”

    [Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.174]

    “Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another… while the
    enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve.”

    [Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.309]

    “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so”

    [Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

    “Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be
    wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in
    a fanatical outlook.”

    [Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, p. 171]

    “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn
    splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the
    abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my
    father, the highest and most desirable ideal.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 1]

    “I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from
    time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At
    all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man
    and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna’s destinies: Dr.
    Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 2]

    “…the unprecedented rise of the Christian Social Party… was to
    assume the deepest significance for me as a classical object of study.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

    “As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people
    fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether
    Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly
    at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single
    holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to
    his own heaven.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

    “Political parties has nothing to do with religious problems, as long
    as these are not alien to the nation, undermining the morals and
    ethics of the race; just as religion cannot be amalgamated with the
    scheming of political parties.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

    “For the political leader the religious doctrines and institutions of
    his people must always remain inviolable; or else has no right to be
    in politics, but should become a reformer, if he has what it takes!

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

    “In nearly all the matters in which the Pan-German movement was
    wanting, the attitude of the Christian Social Party was correct and
    well-planned.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

    “It [Christian Social Party] recognized the value of large-scale
    propaganda and was a virtuoso in influencing the psychological
    instincts of the broad masses of its adherents.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

    “If Dr. Karl Lueger had lived in Germany, he would have been ranked
    among the great minds of our people.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3, about the leader of
    the Christian Social movement]

    “Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy
    enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an
    overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted
    to live at this time.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

    “I had so often sung ‘Deutschland u:ber Alles’ and shouted ‘Heil’ at
    the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of
    grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the
    eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

    “Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very
    first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always
    and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence
    which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering
    and uncertain.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

    “I soon realized that the correct use of propaganda is a true art
    which has remained practically unknown to the bourgeois parties. Only
    the Christian- Social movement, especially in Lueger’s time achieved
    a certain virtuosity on this instrument, to which it owed many of its
    success.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 6]

    “Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along
    the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord’s grace
    smiled on His ungrateful children.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 7, reflecting on World
    War I]

    “The more abstractly correct and hence powerful this idea will be,
    the more impossible remains its complete fulfillment as long as it
    continues to depend on human beings… If this were not so, the
    founders of religion could not be counted among the greatest men of
    this earth… In its workings, even the religion of love is only the
    weak reflection of the will of its exalted founder; its significance,
    however, lies in the direction which it attempted to give to a
    universal human development of culture, ethics, and morality.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 8]

    “To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other
    great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin
    Luther as well as Richard Wagner.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 8]

    “The fight against syphilis demands a fight against prostitution,
    against prejudices, old habits, against previous conceptions, general
    views among them not least the false prudery of certain circles. The
    first prerequisite for even the moral right to combat these things is
    the facilitation of earlier marriage for the coming generation. In
    late marriage alone lies the compulsion to retain an institution
    which, twist and turn as you like, is and remains a disgrace to
    humanity, an institution which is damned ill-suited to a being who
    with his usual modesty likes to regard himself as the ‘image’ of God.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

    “Parallel to the training of the body a struggle against the
    poisoning of the soul must begin. Our whole public life today is like
    a hothouse for sexual ideas and simulations. Just look at the bill of
    fare served up in our movies, vaudeville and theaters, and you will
    hardly be able to deny that this is not the right kind of food,
    particularly for the youth…Theater, art, literature, cinema, press,
    posters, and window displays must be cleansed of all manifestations
    of our rotting world and placed in the service of a moral, political,
    and cultural idea.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10, echoing the Cultural
    Warfare rhetoric of the Religious Right]

    “But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought
    to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from
    now. I think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to
    profane the Almighty.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

    “While both denominations maintain missions in Asia and Africa in
    order to win new followers for their doctrine– an activity which can
    boast but very modest success compared to the advance of the
    Mohammedan faith in particular– right here in Europe they lose
    millions and millions of inward adherents who either are alien to all
    religious life or simply go their own ways. The consequences,
    particularly from a moral point of view, are not favorable.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

    “The great masses of people do not consist of philosophers; precisely
    for the masses, faith is often the sole foundation of a moral
    attitude. The various substitutes have not proved so successful from
    the standpoint of results that they could be regarded as a useful
    replacement for previous religious creeds. But if religious doctrine
    and faith are really to embrace the broad masses, the unconditional
    authority of the content of this faith is the foundation of all
    efficacy.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

    “Due to his own original special nature, the Jew cannot possess a
    religious institution, if for no other reason because he lacks
    idealism in any form, and hence belief in a hereafter is absolutely
    foreign to him. And a religion in the Aryan sense cannot be imagined
    which lacks the conviction of survival after death in some form.
    Indeed, the Talmud is not a book to prepare a man for the hereafter,
    but only for a practical and profitable life in this world.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11]

    “The best characterization is provided by the product of this
    religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world,
    and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his
    nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the
    new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude
    toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to
    drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who
    then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his
    business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while
    our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for
    Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles
    with atheistic Jewish parties– and this against their own nation.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11]

    “….the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil
    assumes the living shape of the Jew.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11, precisely echoing
    Martin Luther's teachings]

    “Faith is harder to shake than knowledge, love succumbs less to
    change than respect, hate is more enduring than aversion, and the
    impetus to the mightiest upheavals on this earth has at all times
    consisted less in a scientific knowledge dominating the masses than
    in a fanaticism which inspired them and sometimes in a hysteria which
    drove them forward.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

    “The greatness of every mighty organization embodying an idea in this
    world lies in the religious fanaticism and intolerance with which,
    fanatically convinced of its own right, it intolerantly imposes its
    will against all others.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

    “The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations
    for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient
    world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for
    its own doctrine.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

    “All in all, this whole period of winter 1919-20 was a single
    struggle to strengthen confidence in the victorious might of the
    young movement and raise it to that fanaticism of faith which can
    move mountains.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

    “Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable
    stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the
    fight for the ‘remaking’ of the Reich as they call it.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

    “Of course, even the general designation ‘religious’ includes various
    basic ideas or convictions, for example, the indestructibility of the
    soul, the eternity of its existence, the existence of a higher being,
    etc. But all these ideas, regardless of how convincing they may be
    for the individual, are submitted to the critical examination of this
    individual and hence to a fluctuating affirmation or negation until
    emotional divination or knowledge assumes the binding force of
    apodictic faith. This, above all, is the fighting factor which makes
    a breach and opens the way for the recognition of basic religious
    views.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

    “Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord
    commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and
    contributes to the expulsion from paradise.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

    “A folkish state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the
    level of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the
    consecration of an institution which is called upon to produce images
    of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

    “It would be more in keeping with the intention of the noblest man in
    this world if our two Christian churches, instead of annoying Negroes
    with missions which they neither desire nor understand, would kindly,
    but in all seriousness, teach our European humanity that where
    parents are not healthy it is a deed pleasing to God to take pity on
    a poor little healthy orphan child and give him father and mother,
    than themselves to give birth to a sick child who will only bring
    unhappiness and suffering on himself and the rest of the world.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

    “That this is possible may not be denied in a world where hundreds
    and hundreds of thousands of people voluntarily submit to celibacy,
    obligated and bound by nothing except the injunction of the Church.
    Should the same renunciation not be possible if this injunction is
    replaced by the admonition finally to put an end to the constant and
    continuous original sin of racial poisoning, and to give the Almighty
    Creator beings such as He Himself created?”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

    “For the greatest revolutionary changes on this earth would not have
    been thinkable if their motive force, instead of fanatical, yes,
    hysterical passion, had been merely the bourgeois virtues of law and
    order.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

    “It doesn’t dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is
    positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to
    keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a
    lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture-
    race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin
    against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by
    the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in
    the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are
    trained for intellectual professions.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

    “It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life,
    but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher
    god.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

    “Christianity could not content itself with building up its own
    altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the
    heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its
    apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute
    presupposition.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 5]

    “For how shall we fill people with blind faith in the correctness of
    a doctrine, if we ourselves spread uncertainty and doubt by constant
    changes in its outward structure? …Here, too, we can learn by the
    example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice, and in
    part quite superfluously, comes into collision with exact science and
    research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one
    little syllable of its dogmas… it is only such dogmas which lend to
    the whole body the character of a faith.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 5]

    “The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in
    his own denomination, of making people stop just talking
    superficially of God’s will, and actually fulfill God’s will, and not
    let God’s word be desecrated. For God’s will gave men their form,
    their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is
    declaring war on the Lord’s creation, the divine will.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 10]

    “In the ranks of the movement [National Socialist movement], the most
    devout Protestant could sit beside the most devout Catholic, without
    coming into the slightest conflict with his religious convictions.
    The mighty common struggle which both carried on against the
    destroyer of Aryan humanity had, on the contrary, taught them
    mutually to respect and esteem one another.”

    [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 10]

    “For this, to be sure, from the child’s primer down to the last
    newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising
    pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this
    one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor
    patriots: ‘Lord, make us free!’ is transformed in the brain of the
    smallest boy into the burning plea: ‘Almighty God, bless our arms
    when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now
    whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!’

    [Adolf Hitler's prayer, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 2 Chapter 13]

    “The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral
    purification of our public life, are creating and securing the
    conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life”

    [Adolph Hitler, in a speech to the Reichstag on March 23, 1933]

    “ATHEIST HALL CONVERTED

    Berlin Churches Establish Bureau to Win Back Worshippers

    Wireless to the New York Times.

    BERLIN, May 13. – In Freethinkers Hall, which before the Nazi
    resurgence was the national headquarters of the German Freethinkers
    League, the Berlin Protestant church authorities have opened a bureau
    for advice to the public in church matters. Its chief object is to
    win back former churchgoers and assist those who have not previously
    belonged to any religious congregation in obtaining church membership.

    The German Freethinkers League, which was swept away by the national
    revolution, was the largest of such organizations in Germany. It had
    about 500,000 members …”

    [New York Times, May 14, 1933, page 2, on Hitler's outlawing of
    atheistic and freethinking groups in Germany in the Spring of 1933,
    after the Enabling Act authorizing Hitler to rule by decree]

    “I go the way that Providence dictates with the assurance of a
    sleepwalker.”

    [Adolf Hitler, Speech, 15 March 1936, Munich, Germany.]

    “The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost
    duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It
    will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation
    has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our
    national morality, and the family as the basis of national life….”

    [Adolf Hitler, Berlin, February 1, 1933]

    “Today Christians … stand at the head of [this country]… I pledge
    that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy
    Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian
    spirit … We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in
    literature, in the theater, and in the press – in short, we want to
    burn out the *poison of immorality* which has entered into our whole
    life and culture as a result of *liberal excess* during the past …
    (few) years.”

    [The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford
    University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872]

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  40. big bruv (13,218 comments) says:

    I detest the Labour party and pretty much everything they stand for. However, if there is one bill that I will support it is this bill. Surely Labour have to take a stand and do what is bloody well right instead of doing what ever they can to grab back the treasury benches.

    Personally, I would have preferred that this bill be put forward by a National party MP but given they are not brave enough then all power to Maryan Street.

    There is no justification for anybody to be against this bill, it is almost criminal they way we insist on making people suffer simply because of some mindless adherence to middle eastern, stone age superstition.

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  41. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    So Kea, you think Jesus would endorse Nazi Germany? or are you still blinded by blinkered anti Christ bigotry? :)

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  42. Lucia Maria (2,205 comments) says:

    There are also quotes from Hitler on how he doesn’t believe in Christianity and is using it to further his own ends.

    Pope Pius XII thought Hitler was possessed and tried to do remote exorcisms on him.

    To somehow make Hitler into some sort of Christian hero is a sick joke, Kea.

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  43. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Shunda barundaj, I was addressing a specific point relating to a common lie told by Christians.

    You did not address that point and tried to change the focus to jesus ( may syphilitic swine be upon him and his followers). This shows clearly that you do not believe in god at all, so cut the crap. You know it is a fact but persist in lying to people. Why ?

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  44. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria, bullshit. Hitler was a catholic and acted with the churches blessing. The catholics in Croatia had their own little holocaust, and were up to the same tricks very recently.

    If you can’t handle the reality of your filthy disgusting cult then either find a another cult or crawl out the muck and start telling the truth. No one wonder you catholics are so deeply messed up with all these lies you tell, even to yourselves.

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  45. wat dabney (3,655 comments) says:

    Fletch, lucky for you you don’t live in 30′s Germany since the evidence is that you’re retarded enough to qualify for the euthanasia you posted about.

    Only a moron (or a liar) would conflate voluntary euthanasia with murder.

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  46. Lucia Maria (2,205 comments) says:

    The existence of priest barracks of Dachau directly contradict Kea’s quote on how highly Hitler apparently regarded the village priest:

    The 32 barracks of Dachau included a barracks for clergy imprisoned for opposing the Nazi regime of Adolf Hitler – Block 26, the Priests’ Barracks.[3] The barracks was mainly occupied by Polish Catholic priests,[4] but some 400 German priests and 35 German Protestant pastors were also sent to the Priest Barracks.[5]

    A small number of clergymen at Dachau were held in private cells in the bunker. These included high profile inmates Dr. Johannes Neuhäusler, a Catholic auxiliary Bishop from Munich and the Protestant pastor Reverend Martin Niemöller. According to a history provided by the scrapbookpages.com website, in 1940, “the German bishops and the Pope had persuaded Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler to concentrate all the priests imprisoned in the various concentration camps into one camp, and to house them all together in separate blocks with a chapel where they could say Mass. In early December 1940, the priests already in Dachau were put into Barracks Block 26 near the end of the camp street. Within two weeks, they were joined by around 800 to 900 priests from Buchenwald, Mauthausen, Sachsenhausen, Auschwitz and other camps, who were put into Blocks 28 and 30. Block 30 was later converted into an infirmary barrack”.[6]

    Initially, the clergy prisoners were treated marginally better than other prisoners, however treatment worsened in the wake of Papal or episcopal announcements critical of the Nazi regime, such as Pope Pius XII’s 1942 Christmas address. One Easter, the guards marked Good Friday by torturing 60 priests. Tying their hands behind their backs, chaining their wrists, and hoisting them up by the chains – tearing joints apart and killing and disabling several of the priests. The threat of further torture was used to keep the priests obedient. Food was so lacking, that prisoners would retrieve scraps from the compost pile.[7]

    In a book about his time at Dachau, Father Jean Bernard of Luxembourg wrote that although forbidden to say mass, priests were brought great comfort through conducting secret Masses, using scraps of bread as communion.[8]

    Of the 2720 priests (among them 2579 Catholic) held in Dachau, 1034 did not survive the camp. The majority were Polish (1780), of whom 868 died in Dachau.

    Link: Priest Barracks of Dachau Concentration Camp

    Still sounding like a Muslim, Kea. Sure you’re not actively practicing Taqiyya?

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  47. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    “You hate suffering people” is not a valid argument against those opposed to euthanasia, are we really seriously going to go another 400 rounds based on this asinine bullshit logic?

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  48. Lucia Maria (2,205 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria, bullshit. Hitler was a catholic and acted with the churches blessing. The catholics in Croatia had their own little holocaust, and were up to the same tricks very recently.

    Being raised Catholic does not make a person Catholic in reality. As an example, Catholics for Choice are not actually Catholic, even though they pretend to be, and even though some clergy give them their blessing.

    Yes, the Ustaše existed, but not with the Church’s blessing.

    You’re just annoyed because I’m making you look like an idiot.

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  49. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Lucy, maybe Hitler locked them up for raping boys ?

    I know that would not make him a “real” catholic, because real catholics try and protect child rapists. I suspect this is also why catholics are against abortion as they prefer unwanted boys in orphanages for the sexual pleasure of the clergy.

    Of all the vile Abrahamic cults, catholicism is the worst, by far. Even many other christians consider it a cult.

    Correct yourself Lucy.

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  50. big bruv (13,218 comments) says:

    Kea

    Lucia is indeed a liar. You should ask her about the Rat Lines arranged by the filthy Catholic church who aided the escape of Nazi’s at the end of the second world war. You might also ask her why the Vatican entered a pact with Hitler to save their own skin during WW2.

    I have asked her about this in the past and all she does is deny that it every happened, of course that makes her a liar.

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  51. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    You’re just annoyed because I’m making you look like an idiot.

    LOL :)

    Here is some more christian handy work that is much more recent. Not quite so funny as reading your lies though, sorry.

    http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.co.nz/2011/03/bosnian-genocide-pictures-are-worth.html

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  52. Dazzaman (1,123 comments) says:

    Typical liberal bull…Street should start with herself.

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  53. wat dabney (3,655 comments) says:

    Being raised Catholic does not make a person Catholic in reality.

    Actually, it really does. Unless they renounce it.

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  54. Lucia Maria (2,205 comments) says:

    The real ratlines were run by allied Governments. A rogue priest or two does not a ratline make, but then Big Bruv is my own personal stalker who loves to jump out and accuse me of the most vile things, such as opposing contraception or IVF or euthanasia, all of which make me evil. At least his blog has been deleted now – maybe the readers got bored of reading about how evil I was on it. Big Bruv is obsessed, and not in a good way. I ignore him as much as I am able.

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  55. Lucia Maria (2,205 comments) says:

    Kea,

    Interesting choice of example in your 6:46. You are a Muslim.

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  56. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Lucy I am an atheist.

    Any comment on the handy work of your fellow christians ? Almost every festering conflict on the planet has a religious base and in spite of what apologists claim, christians are not better than all the others.

    Give it up lucy and join the enlightment. You will enjoy sex more too :)

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  57. big bruv (13,218 comments) says:

    Lucia

    Me….your stalker?…you wish!

    ” such as opposing contraception or IVF or euthanasia, all of which make me evil”

    Are you now denying that you said you think that those who choose to have IVF are sinners?…if so you are indeed a liar.

    “who loves to jump out and accuse me of the most vile things”

    I don’t need to accuse you of the most vile things Lucia, your own words condemn you.

    As for the Rat lines (that until now you refused to acknowledge) were sanctioned, set up and run by the Vatican. You can spout your stone age bullshit here as much as you like Lucia but do not expect your stupid beliefs and your insulting insistence that we should all be forced by law to follow those same stone age beliefs to go unchallenged.

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  58. Tom Jackson (2,458 comments) says:

    Upon the rise of Adolf Hitler, gay men and, to a lesser extent, lesbians, were two of the numerous groups targeted by the Nazi Party and were ultimately among Holocaust victims. Beginning in 1933, gay organizations were banned, scholarly books about homosexuality, and sexuality in general, were burned, and homosexuals within the Nazi Party itself were murdered. The Gestapo compiled lists of homosexuals, who were compelled to sexually conform to the “German norm.”

    Between 1933 and 1945, an estimated 100,000 men were arrested as homosexuals, of whom some 50,000 were officially sentenced.[1] Most of these men served time in regular prisons, and an estimated 5,000 to 15,000 of those sentenced were incarcerated in Nazi concentration camps.[1] It is unclear how many of the 5,000 to 15,000 eventually perished in the camps, but leading scholar Rüdiger Lautmann believes that the death rate of homosexuals in concentration camps may have been as high as 60%. Homosexuals in the camps were treated in an unusually cruel manner by their captors.

    Yes, definitely a peachy time for fruits…

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  59. RF (1,263 comments) says:

    Forget about who supports this bill and how good it is. . It is now a question of survival with Labour MPs voting against it to save their collective arses. They just want it off the table.

    Those pricks would sell their mother if the price was right.

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  60. Chuck Bird (4,668 comments) says:

    The is no way such an important piece of legislation should depend on the so conscience of MPs. How many of them have a conscience? Look how the vote on the raises and perks.

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  61. Steve (North Shore) (4,491 comments) says:

    I hope the Bill is not dropped. This is 2013, not 1913.
    If the Bill is dropped then why did a dropkick high school teacher put the Bill in the first place? Votes?
    If it will affect Labia at the Election then tough titiies, to withdraw shows lack of commitment in the first place by Street.

    I have seen 3 relatives die in terminal pain and loss of functions, it is not nice for them. When it is my time I would like my pre-determined choice honoured. I don’t want some arse licking Polititian or some nutbar with a Religious hangup making my decision.

    How cowardly, make a Bill and then withdraw

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  62. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    Dying is a personal tragedy and I am totally opposed to it. It should be banned, like nuclear and fluoridation.

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  63. Fletch (6,004 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson, actually, homosexuality was known as the “German Vice”.
    The Nazi party was stacked with homosexuals and the party itself was formed in a gay bar, the Bratwurstgloeckl (documented in the book by German Journalist Heinz Hohne The Order of the Death’s Head, called ”A monumental achievement” by the New York Times Book Review).

    This stuff has pretty much been written out of history, such as the burning of the Sex Institute and its books by the Nazis in Berlin on May 6, 1933. Why? Because they held records on the sexual treatment of Germans for homosexuality, many of them Nazi leaders.

    Treatment at the Sex Research Institute was required by the German courts for persons convicted of sex crimes.  Ludwig L. Lenz, the “gay” Assistant Director at the Institute at the time of the raid, managed to escape with his life and later wrote of the incident: 

    Why was it then, since we were completely non-party, that our purely scientific Institute was the first victim which fell to the new regime?  The answer to this is simple…We knew too much.  It would be against medical principles to provide a list of the Nazi leaders and their perversions [but]…not ten percent of the men who, in 1933, took the fate of Germany into their hands, were sexually normal…Our knowledge of such intimate secrets regarding members of the Nazi Party and other documentary material — we possessed about forty thousand confessions and biographical letters — was the cause of the complete and utter destruction of the Institute of Sexology. (Haberle:369). 

    That explains the burning of the books in the so-called ‘Sex Institute’.

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  64. Tom Jackson (2,458 comments) says:

    Yes. Nazism was pretty gay. The naked blond men swimming in Alpine lakes and the uniforms gave it away. The purges were real. The camps were real.

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  65. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Fletch, an informative comment as always.

    The message I got is that, Catholics are Gay Nazis.

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  66. Nostalgia-NZ (4,898 comments) says:

    ‘If it will affect Labia at the Election then tough titiies, to withdraw shows lack of commitment in the first place by Street.’

    Brownlee frankly admits that proposed motorway exit taxes for Auckland to fund transport are not a vote winner, Key insists the party toe the line on the vote on the GCSB Amendment Bill which in the public is widely unpopular – neither actually being inspiring decisions across the board yet Street is considering a strategic ‘retreat’ on Bill that many don’t see as a party political decision anyway. When it arrives, it will be one of the most important political debates ever in New Zealand, I’m not sure that Labour realise that an Euthanasia Bill put aside for political expedience in an election year will cement the thought for many in the electorate that Labour have no idea what they stand for any longer, nor the courage put down a foundation stone for the NZers who are concerned about the ‘right to die,’ – arising from personal experiences, sympathy, beliefs, fear or pride. They’ve become bewildered in the translation.

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  67. Harriet (4,501 comments) says:

    “……The Australian and New Zealand Society of Palliative Medicine Inc., (ANZSPM), believes that the practice of euthanasia and assisted suicide are outside the discipline of Palliative Medicine. The Society endorses the New Zealand Medical Association’s Position Statement on Euthanasia, and similarly the World Medial Association’s which state that euthanasia and doctor-assisted suicide are unethical. This position is not dependent on euthanasia and doctor-assisted suicide remaining unlawful. Even if they were to become legal, or decriminalised, the NZMA would continue to regard them as unethical…..”

    Quite so Fletch.

    Euthanasia and assisted suicide slow the rate at which advances in Palliative Medicine advances, which then causes more unnessecery pain and suffering for those who choose NOT to die.

    Pain and suffering of those who choose NOT to die has to come FIRST – As doctors will still have to live by their ethical code of FIRST do NO harm. By introducing euthanasia it will cause the pain and suffering of others – in the long run.

    To get this bill through, parliment has to GAUREENTEE that any advances ANYWHERE in the world with pallitative care FIRST have to be introduced to NZ at the very FIRST opportunity.

    Otherwise ‘health management doctors’ will end up CAUSING the unnessecery pain and suffering of others by creating the enviroment where advances in pallitative care decelerate.

    Cheers Fletch. :cool:

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  68. Fletch (6,004 comments) says:

    Kea the Nazis were far from Catholic.
    At one point they were planning to kidnap and kill the Pope.
    That doesn’t sound very Catholic to me.

    Rumors have persisted for a long time that Adolf Hitler wanted to kidnap or kill Pope Pius XII, but facts have come to light supporting the theory, adding to ever-growing evidence clearing the wartime pontiff’s name.

    In 1972, former SS General Karl Wolf referred to such a plan in a meeting he said he had with the Pope on May 10, 1944. His story never could be verified.

    However, articles in the Italian bishops’ newspaper Avvenire and the Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano this week provided more concrete details about a plan the Reichssicherheitsamt (the Reich’s Security Headquarters) hatched in Berlin in 1943.

    The reports cite a viable source: the son of one of the key people involved, Niki Freytag von Loringhoven, who is now 72.

    According to his account, a secret meeting took place July 29-30, 1943, in Venice to inform the head of Italian counterintelligence, Gen. Cesare Ame, of the Führer’s wish to punish Italians for the arrest of Benito Mussolini by kidnapping or killing Pius XII and the king of Italy.

    The plan arrived directly from Berlin, from the head of German counterintelligence, Adm. Wilhelm Canaris, and two colonels of Section II (sabotage), Erwin von Lahousen and Wessel Freytag von Loringhoven.

    As soon as Ame returned to Rome, the news got out and the plan was shelved, according to the report in Avvenire.

    The news is further testament to a well-known fact in church circles: Pius XII was certainly no friends of the Nazis. It follows a growing groundswell of opinion, also among many prominent Jews, that Pius XII not only did all he could to save Jews during World War II but also risked his life to help them.

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  69. Fletch (6,004 comments) says:

    The purges were real. The camps were real.

    OK, you lost me there.

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  70. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Fletch, the fact they may have resented the competing influence of the church does not mean they were not Catholic. Hitler certainly was and the rest were Christians, if not Catholic ones. God and Church were on their side, (though it was all pretty mild compared to what is in the bible.)

    If your ashamed of your history (and you should be) then consider leaving the cult, but do not expect informed people to accept your denials.

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  71. Reg (544 comments) says:

    The demand for Euthanasia is not from those wanting to die, but from moral cowards afraid they may be obliged to support their “loved” ones through their death throes.
    It beggars belief that a “progressive Liberal” will “die” in a ditch to try and prevent a mass murderer being executed but are in boots in all for the right to “snuff out” their sweet old grandma.

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  72. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Test your history knowledge folks.

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  73. Fletch (6,004 comments) says:

    Kea, I’m sorry, but Hitler may have said he was Catholic, but he certainly wasn’t and did not follow the teachings of the Church.
    I can say I am a vegetarian but if I eat meat then i am probably not. And the Nazis were certainly not Christian.
    If you look at their philosophy, they followed the Greek Hellenic, pagan virtues. (The Hellenes were an ultra-masculine, male supremacist, homoerotic warrior cult).

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  74. Fletch (6,004 comments) says:

    Another quote, this time from Adolf Brand, editor of Der Eigene, the first homosexual magazine in Germany.

    “Men such as Captain Roehm [Hitler's 'gay' mentor], are, to our knowledge, no rarity at all in the National Socialist Party. It rather teems there with homosexuals of all kinds. And the joy of man in man, which has been slandered in their papers so often as an oriental vice although the Edda frankly extols it as the highest virtue of the Teutons, blossoms around their campfires and is cultivated and fostered by them in a way done in no other male union that is reared on party politics. The threatened hanging on the gallows, with which they allege they want to exterminate homosexuals, is therefore only a horrible gesture that is supposed to make stupid people believe that the Hitler people, in the matter of male-to-male inclinations, are all as innocent as pigeons and pure as angels, just like the pious members of the Christian Society of the Virgin. …” [Oosterhuis, Harry, and Kennedy, Hubert (eds.). "Homosexuality and Male Bonding in Pre-Nazi Germany: the youth movement, the gay movement and male bonding before Hitler's rise: original transcripts from Der Eigene, the first gay journal in the world." New York, Harrington Park Press, 1991.] (Both Oosterhuis and Kennedy are “gay” college professors and historians.)

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  75. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Fletch, why do you consider him not to be a catholic ? Is he not bad enough to qualify ?

    The uncomfortable truth is he was a Catholic and that is crystal clear. Next you will be trying to disown all those boy raping clergy, then you will be struggling find any prominent Catholics.

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  76. Fletch (6,004 comments) says:

    Kea, he just wasn’t. Ask any historian.
    I’m not opposed to owning up to anything the Church has done wrong, or to infamous Catholics, but the idea that Hitler was a Catholic is just … silly. He may have been brought up one, or was techinically one, I don’t know, but it is the first time I’ve ever heard it mentioned, to be honest.

    I don’t believe anyone really thinks Hitler was Catholic.
    The Nazis even tried to take Christ out of Christmas and make it a pagan festival, with swastika ornaments, cards and hymns.

    Housewives were encouraged to bake biscuits in similar shapes. One of the exhibits is a page from a Nazi women’s magazine with a baking recipe: “Every boy will want to bake a sig (SS) rune,” proclaims the accompanying text.

    The Nazification of Christmas did not end there. The Christmas tree crib was replaced by a Christmas garden containing wooden toy deer and rabbits. Mary and Jesus became the Germanic mother and child, while dozens of Christmas carols, including the famous German hymn “Silent Night”, were rewritten with all references to God, Christ and religion expunged. At the height of the anti-Christian campaign, an attempt was made to replace the coming of Christ the Saviour with the coming of Adolf Hitler – the “Saviour Führer.”

    “We cannot accept that a German Christmas tree has anything to do with a crib in a manger in Bethlehem,” wrote the Nazi propagandist Friedrich Rehm in 1937. “It is inconceivable for us that Christmas and all its deep soulful content is the product of an oriental religion,” he added.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/how-the-nazis-stole-christmas-1846365.html
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1228630/How-Hitlers-Nazi-propaganda-machine-tried-Christ-Christmas.html

    Now, do you really think someone who was a Christian would attempt to take Christ out Christmas? One of the most important Christian holidays of the year?

    Wiki tells me –

    Adolf Hitler was raised by a sceptic father and a devout Catholic mother; he ceased to participate in the sacraments after childhood.[1] Contradictory accounts exist about Adolf Hitler’s religious views, including his ties to Christianity and the Catholic church. According to Hitler’s chief architect, Albert Speer, Hitler made harsh pronouncements against the church to his political associates, but remained a formal member of the Catholic church until his death, and even ordered his chief associates to remain members; while having “no real attachment to it.”[2]

    Next!

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  77. eszett (2,332 comments) says:

    No true Soctsman, eh Fletch.

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  78. big bruv (13,218 comments) says:

    “Kea, he just wasn’t. Ask any historian.”

    So Hitlers own words are not good enough for you?

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  79. Scott (1,701 comments) says:

    The subject of Hitler’s religiousness has come up many times. As far as we can tell he was bought up nominally Catholic. He did make many pro-Christian statements particularly early in his career as he was gaining power.

    But once in power and as that power strengthened he revealed his true colours. The Nazis had only contempt for Christianity, a similar attitude to many on this blog. They thought it weak, they hated the Jews and steadily began to move against the church. Hitler is probably best summarised as an Antichrist figure, who wanted to kill the Jews, God’s chosen people, and replace them with the Aryan race who he believed providence had made the master race.

    The Nazis also put together alternative ceremonies such as Nazi baptisms for example, generally using Pagan symbolism.If we could sum Hitler up he was a Darwinist who believed in survival of the fittest. The fittest being the German master race. So he had the same Darwinist Outlook that leads many to atheism.

    But he was not an atheist either. He was religious but reached back in time to pre-Christian Pagan ritual and gods which the Nazis tried to revive.So he was really a Pagan with a large streak of Darwinism thrown in. And he was most certainly violently anti-Christian.

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  80. Yvette (2,687 comments) says:

    I strongly believe that Labour needs an issue like euthanasia to divert the public’s attention from the fact that the Party are still fucking about trying to determine who may be a good Leader for them, nineteen months after loosing the last Election.

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  81. ChardonnayGuy (1,131 comments) says:

    I don’t think this bill would succeed. It’s not because of religious social conservative opposition, it’s the New Zealand Medical Association and allied medical practitioners groups. In all cases where voluntary euthanasia or physician assisted suicide have been decriminalised- the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and Switzerland and the US states of Oregon, Washington, Montana and Vermont- the national medical associations either declared neutrality or assisted regulation of voluntary euthanasia or physician assisted suicide. My own assessment is that this time, the bill might make it past its first reading to the select committee stage, but the opposition of the medical profession would end its existence at that point.

    It would take a particularly grave situation for this position to be reversed. Climate change might produce a situation where the vectors of pandemic disease are shifted out of their normal habitats, leading to a situation where there might be excessive demand on hospital beds, medical practitioners, pharmaceutical reserves etc. However, I estimate that we are probably twenty years or so from that scenario. I hope we are. In the meantime, it would be logical to identify which potential pandemics might arise and prepare for them in advance.

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  82. big bruv (13,218 comments) says:

    “But once in power and as that power strengthened he revealed his true colours”

    Indeed!, being in power allowed Hitler to really show he was a Catholic.

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