Chilling

August 22nd, 2013 at 7:00 am by David Farrar

Stuff reports:

When Chris Lane jogged past three boys on Country Club Road in Duncan, southern Oklahoma, the boys did not see a young man, local police chief Danny Ford says, they saw a target.

“They saw him go by and they said, ‘that’s our target’ and they followed him and they shot him, that’s what he told me,” Chief Ford told Fairfax Media of the conversation police had with the oldest suspect, a 17-year-old boy.

They allegedly shot Lane, Ford said, because they wanted to see someone die.

The 17-year-old was unemotional when he told the story of what had reportedly happened. “The other two were, well I don’t want to use their language but they were basically ‘up yours’; they wanted an attorney.

We all have a fear to some degree of violent, let alone lethal, crime. We try to minimise it by making sensible decisions around not getting involved in crime, where we live, who we associate with, how we engage with people etc etc.

It is cases like the above that are so chilling. It was a pure random and motiveless killing, done (allegedly) by three sociopaths.

Thank goodness such acts are relatively rare.

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68 Responses to “Chilling”

  1. big bruv (13,559 comments) says:

    Had three white guys decided to kill some random black stranger because they are bored you just know the media would be branding it a race, or hate crime.

    So, why is this crime not being described as a hate, or race crime when the victim is white and the killers are black?

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  2. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    So, why is this crime not being described as a hate, or race crime when the victim is white and the killers are black?

    Because it is politically incorrect to single out poor victims of slavery and abuse by the white man.

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  3. Nigel (515 comments) says:

    @big bruv, maybe because the accused driver was white & of the accused murderers one tough to tell & one african american. Also maybe the motive of “boredom” makes hate/race crime a tough stretch.

    It’s pretty damn freaky I have to say, I’ve been pretty confident wandering in the middle of nowhere in the states, still will do it, but maybe be a bit more cautious.

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  4. Pita (373 comments) says:

    Suffice to say; if Obama had a son he wouldn’t look like Chris!

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  5. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    big bruv, this is race hate crime. Obama’s connection to the US is through his white mother. If he had a son he might look like Chris.

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  6. Odakyu-sen (524 comments) says:

    How do you prove a “race hate” crime? How much weighting do you place on what the defendant said? wrote? did? Or do you automatically assume a “race hate” crime if two recognized races are involved?
    Big Bruv raises a predictable question that I would like the media to attempt to answer. (Not holding my breath…)

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  7. scrubone (3,082 comments) says:

    Well, after the condemnation of killing Trayvon Martin, it’s good to see Jesse Jackson frowns upon killing people for fun.

    Wait, what?

    http://twitchy.com/2013/08/21/jesse-jackson-totally-frowns-upon-thrill-killing-of-student-by-bored-teens/

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  8. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    big bruv (11,423) Says:
    August 22nd, 2013 at 7:06 am

    So, why is this crime not being described as a hate, or race crime when the victim is white and the killers are black?

    Obviously the contrast on your monitor is not working. If one of those three boys walked into Compton and said “What’s up my niggaz?” he might not leave with his life.

    But don’t mind me though… go back to feeling sorry for yourself because being a white man is just so damn hard. You’ve got 10 thumbs up so far… all of you could get together and form a support group to deal with your everyday struggles.

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  9. EAD (825 comments) says:

    Rather than once again being described euphemistically as “youths” we’re told repeatedly that they are “boys”. No description, no identification, no links with the krips gang, just “boys”.

    Hispanic man kills violent black man in America and we are repeatedly told about the “white” man that killed the boy armed with “skittles” while being shown ad nauseam a picture of the thug as a 12 year old. Ask yourself – what exactly is the media agenda?

    The Blunt Truth about The Trayvon Martin Case:

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  10. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    EAD (55) Says:
    August 22nd, 2013 at 8:56 am

    …what exactly is the media agenda?

    To sell newspapers and to get viewers. Sensationalize in other words. The reason the Martin case was portrayed as it was was because he was profiled. The racial overtones were obvious (even if in reality they were utterly non-existent in the mind of Zimmerman).

    The other thing of course is that these three boys will get all that they deserve.

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  11. iMP (2,344 comments) says:

    Was the Australian jogger gay? (Jogging is a bit gay). This modern obsession with ‘types’ of people…

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  12. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    iMP (1,507) Says:
    August 22nd, 2013 at 9:02 am

    Was the Australian jogger gay? This modern obsession with ‘types’ of people…

    Modern?

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  13. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    The racial overtones were obvious

    The racial overtones were obvious manufactured by the left wing media

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  14. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Kea (6,934) Says:
    August 22nd, 2013 at 9:07 am

    The racial overtones were obvious manufactured by the left wing media

    Nonsense. Exploited, sure. But when your average black person looks at the facts they see someone profiled because they were black. This perception exists independent of how the media portrays any one case.

    No one knows what was in the mind of Zimmerman except Zimmerman. However you conclude it, it is an assumption. Not unsurprisingly black people tend to assume one way and white people tend to assume another way, each importing into their assumptions their own prejudices and experiences.

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  15. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Really? A thumbs down for questioning whether an obsession with types of people is modern? I suppose the Israeli/Palestinian conflict started yesterday. Same with the Irish nationalists and loyalists.

    I must have forgotten about this bygone era where everyone treated everyone else as equals and didn’t judge them based on some category to which they belonged.

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  16. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    But when your average black white person looks at the facts they see someone profiled because they were black white. This perception exists independent of how the media portrays any one case.

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  17. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Kea,

    Yes, I agree. My point exactly.

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  18. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I must have forgotten about this bygone era where everyone treated everyone else as equals and didn’t judge them based on some category to which they belonged.

    But don’t mind me though… go back to feeling sorry for yourself because being a white man is just so damn hard.

    your average black person…

    Not unsurprisingly black people…

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  19. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Kea,

    I’m sure you have a point. :)

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  20. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Weihana, you are using special pleading, on the assumption that white people have a duty of care towards those with more exotic appearance. This creates a barrier to prosperity for coloured people and removes the idea of self determination and replaces it with dependance.

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  21. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Kea,

    I’m not sure where I have assumed that white people have a “duty of care towards those with more exotic appearance”. Regardless of any racial overtones in the Zimmerman case (real or imagined) my view is that the kid died because Zimmerman was armed.

    In this case I see no easily identifiable racial overtones as one of the perps looks white to me and the available evidence suggests the perps are sociopaths.

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  22. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Weihana, so what if he was armed ? Zimmerman was the victim. The court found that he used reasonable force. Get it through your head that he was the victim, not the attacker. That is the finding. The racial aspect was introduced to generate race hate towards white people and cloud the issue. It was not a race crime. It was a case of a young thug violently attacking someone.

    You do not get to by-pass proper legal process by introducing “overtones” or race. Blacks kill whites at hugely greater rates than whites kill blacks. Yet we never see these media beat ups over that fact.

    Like I said, special pleading for blacks.

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  23. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Kea (6,939) Says:
    August 22nd, 2013 at 9:52 am

    Weihana, so what if he was armed ?

    If there is a fight, it increases the likelihood of death. The US has too many guns.

    Zimmerman was the victim. The court found that he used reasonable force. Get it through your head that he was the victim, not the attacker. That is the finding.

    The criminal test is proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. That is not a finding of innocence although that presumption is held. The burden of proof is on the state, not the accused, therefore it is not correct to say that a finding of not guilty means that an accused has proven his innocence, as he is not required to do that.

    There is not enough evidence to prove that Zimmerman was a victim. The evidence indicates that he was losing a fight and resorted to his weapon: a reasonable basis for an acquittal.

    The racial aspect was introduced to generate race hate towards white people and cloud the issue. It was not a race crime.

    I have no idea. Only Zimmerman knows what was in his mind at the time. I very much doubt he is a racist though.

    It was a case of a young thug violently attacking someone.

    Or defending himself: that is plausible on the available evidence. Again, another thing only Zimmerman knows.

    You do not get to by-pass proper legal process by introducing “overtones” or race.

    Exactly which legal process am I suggesting be bypassed?

    Blacks kill whites at hugely greater rates than whites kill blacks. Yet we never see these media beat ups over that fact.

    What point are you trying to make with this statistic? That black people as a group should be condemned because of it? I’m unsure as to the relevance to anything I have said.

    As an aside though, I would observe that blacks kill blacks more than any other group.

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  24. Mark (497 comments) says:

    In America, black on white violent crime is 800% higher than white on black violent crime.

    Whites are trageted by blacks all the time in the US, and nothing is said or done by the liberial media. If it was the other way around there would be talk of how racist America is.

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  25. kowtow (7,945 comments) says:

    Andrew Bolt with a lot more info.

    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/why_is_everyone_so_desperate_to_deny_chris_lanes_murder_was_a_hate_crime/

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  26. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Mark (494) Says:
    August 22nd, 2013 at 10:19 am

    Whites are trageted by blacks all the time…

    All the time? As soon as you see a black man he starts thinking about killing you? Probably wants to rape your wife as well.

    Blacks are over-represented in criminal statistics. If you think this hasn’t been reported on you obviously live on another planet.

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  27. Fletch (6,148 comments) says:

    Looks like the killers were affiliated with the Crips gang.
    At the link you can see a video they put on Vine mucking around with a gun and joking.

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/chilling-911-call-details-final-moments-of-melbourne-baseballer-chris-lane8217s-life/story-fni0fiyv-1226700172461

    One of them had posted Tweets saying they hate white men.

    On April 29, he tweeted, “90% of white ppl are nasty. #HATE THEM.”

    http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/21/black-teen-who-murdered-australian-jogger-posted-racist-tweets/

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  28. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    @Kea

    Sorry – but you’re full of shit.

    Interviews with the jurors from the Zimmerman case show that the jury wanted to declare Zimmerman guilty, but couldn’t because of the way that Florida laws are drafted.

    The jury wanted to convict Zimmerman – he is hardly a ‘victim’.

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  29. SGA (957 comments) says:

    Kea (6,939) at 9:52 am
    Blacks kill whites at hugely greater rates than whites kill blacks.

    Weihana at 10:10 am
    As an aside though, I would observe that blacks kill blacks more than any other group.

    From the FBI data from 2011 (easy to find)

    White Murder Victim
    83% White offender
    14% Black Offender
    3% Other/unknown

    Black Murder Victim
    7% White offender
    91% Black offender
    2% Other unknown.

    An overwhelming majority of murders are intra-racial not inter-racial.

    Yes, proportionally more White Victim – Black Offender than Black Victim – White Offender. Is it a “hugely greater rate”? Depends on how you look at it – a 7% absolute difference (looking at all the data as a whole), or double the rate from a relative comparison.

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  30. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Weihana, Zimmerman identified as South American. He was as white as Obama. In fact if Obama had a son he could look like Zimmerman.

    The US has too many guns.

    A different topic. Based on the stats, it is blacks who have too many guns. If you took them out of the shooting stats the US would have a crime rate like Belgium.

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  31. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Fletch (4,668) Says:
    August 22nd, 2013 at 10:35 am

    On April 29, he tweeted, “90% of white ppl are nasty. #HATE THEM.”

    Ugh… having just waded through the sewer that is this piece of garbage’s twitter feed I have to concede that I think the crime was racially motivated.


    “Ayeee I knocced out 5 woods since Zimmerman court!:) lol shit ima keep sleepin shit!”

    (woods meaning white boy)

    I would also concede that the MSM is certainly avoiding mentioning this narrative it would appear.

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  32. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Kea (6,943) Says:
    August 22nd, 2013 at 10:59 am

    Weihana, Zimmerman identified as South American. He was as white as Obama. In fact if Obama had a son he could look like Zimmerman.

    Racism is about perception Kea. I could say I’m Maori, and I am. But that is not the assumption that anyone would make just by observing me. The same is true of Obama, he is a black man because that is what he appears to be.

    Again not saying that Zimmerman is a racist, just that his case was ripe for that narrative as it involved what appeared to be a white man profiling a black kid, shooting dead that kid, and not being punished for it. That he had a very good defense and that based on the evidence he should have been acquitted does not change that perception.

    A different topic.

    It should have been the topic.

    Based on the stats, it is blacks who have too many guns. If you took them out of the shooting stats the US would have a crime rate like Belgium.

    You do realize that most blacks are law abiding citizens don’t you? You do realize that in any population the criminal element is usually a very small minority?

    And what do you mean by “if you took them out of the stats”… how exactly do you take one demographic out of the stats? Pretend they don’t exist? Create a different rule for them? Put them in specially designated areas?

    I thought we were trying to calm the racial rhetoric, not manufacture more of it. :)

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  33. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Racism is about perception Kea. I could say I’m Maori, and I am. But that is not the assumption that anyone would make just by observing me. The same is true of Obama, he is a black man because that is what he appears to be.

    Zimmerman looks South American, not “white”. You are playing the race card as a plea for special consideration. Just as Obama did. Not surprising as he was elected on the race card.

    I have mentioned before that Obama, Zimmerman and Kea have one thing in common. We are all half-white. But Zimmerman and I did not get a Nobel Prize for being half white.

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  34. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    I’m not sure what you mean by “playing the race card”. I’m just trying to explain why one case is easy to sell under a certain narrative while others are less so. Although I think there is a racial aspect to this case that should be reported on, it’s still not going to generate as much controversy because these teenagers will get what’s coming to them.

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  35. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    gump @ 10:47

    Thanks for confirming that the Law found Zimmerman did not comit any crime.

    Do you suggest we should have taken the alternative and not followed the law ?

    Provide reasons ?

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  36. scrubone (3,082 comments) says:

    Again not saying that Zimmerman is a racist, just that his case was ripe for that narrative as it involved what appeared to be a white man profiling a black kid, shooting dead that kid, and not being punished for it.

    But that’s the problem! Zimmerman isn’t white, did not profile a black kid (he profiled a suspicious kid) and his shooting was clearly defensive.

    Yet the early narrative was “white guy shoots black kid on whim”. People were telling me on this very blog that GZ had no injuries, because the media were absurdly pushing a grainy video as “proof” of that.

    And when the facts came out, the media really did not change their story. They did not ever really report just how bizarrely non-existent the case against GZ was – even to today.

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  37. scrubone (3,082 comments) says:

    Sorry – but you’re full of shit.

    I differ to your expertise on that.

    Interviews with the jurors from the Zimmerman case show that the jury wanted to declare Zimmerman guilty, but couldn’t because of the way that Florida laws are drafted.

    There have been 3 interviews (that I know of).

    Only one stated that she thought he was guilty. The other two stated that Martin was responsible for his own death.
    http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/07/16/2306901/7-mind-blowing-moments-from-zimmerman-juror-b37s-first-interview/

    The third complained that the law didn’t let them find him guilty. You know – things like evidence. You do know there was not one credible witness who really contradicted GZ’s story, don’t you? You do know that many prosecution witnesses actually helped GZ? You do know that only the defense put up credible medical examiners, or use of force experts?

    The jury wanted to convict Zimmerman – he is hardly a ‘victim’.

    Someone who has even jurors wanting to convict, even though there is literally no evidence he acted illegally, yea – that’s a victim in my book. A victim of a lynch mob.

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  38. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    scrubone (2,606) Says:
    August 22nd, 2013 at 12:06 pm

    But that’s the problem! Zimmerman isn’t white, did not profile a black kid (he profiled a suspicious kid) and his shooting was clearly defensive.

    He is white, the kid was black. Again, it does not matter how you identify, or what exactly your ethnic makeup is, what matters is appearance because that is what people judge you on.

    He profiled what he thought was a suspicious kid, agreed. But what was suspicious about him? You can never prove racial profiling. Black lady walks into a shop and the shop assistant follows them around. Was it because she’s black? Maybe… maybe she does it to everyone. Unfortunately it happens enough that many are predisposed to see it. It can always be denied so the fact that it is denied is not going to stop it from being suspected.

    Was the shooting “clearly defensive”? I’m skeptical. It appears defensive in the moment that it happened but there is scant evidence as to how this altercation unfolded. There is a big difference between reasonable doubt and proof of innocence or victim-hood.

    I have little sympathy for Zimmerman if he initiated an altercation knowing he was armed with a lethal weapon to use in the event that Martin fought back. But that cannot be proved.

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  39. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    scrubone,

    You do know there was not one credible witness who really contradicted GZ’s story, don’t you?

    Because GZ’s story is the only evidence pertaining to crucial moments of what took place.

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  40. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Weihana, stop playing the race card and attempting to identify with the criminal Martin. You have nothing in common with urban black drug taking violent gang banger wanna be’s in the USA. You are better than that and you should be supporting equal rights, not special consideration based on race.

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  41. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Well I’ve said what I think of the Zimmerman/Martin case. But speaking more generally, I do support equal rights and a law that is colour blind. But the unfortunate reality is that the law is not colour blind because the law is crafted by, and made up of, people and as such it will always be a reflection of our own innate prejudices.

    This is not only true for jurors but for the law itself. Ask yourself why crack cocaine sentencing has been so much harsher than powder cocaine and then consider why the statistics for black communities are so shockingly bad.

    Addressing racial conflict and racial inequity requires more than just a presumption of equality.

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  42. scrubone (3,082 comments) says:

    Because GZ’s story is the only evidence pertaining to crucial moments of what took place.

    That’s an outright lie, and you know it.

    Shame on you!

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  43. scrubone (3,082 comments) says:

    Was the shooting “clearly defensive”? I’m skeptical.

    Yea, evidence be damned.

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  44. hj (6,732 comments) says:

    What bothers me about this case is that thrill killing is probably a far greater motive for violence than given credit and it is one of the reasons i support the death penalty (as an option).

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  45. scrubone (3,082 comments) says:

    He is white, the kid was black. Again, it does not matter how you identify, or what exactly your ethnic makeup is, what matters is appearance because that is what people judge you on.

    Again, your ability to wave away the truth is spectacular.

    The whole reason that the narrative changed from “white” to the most subtly-dishonest “white Hispanic” is because no one could honestly say after his picture was published that GZ was white. Yet here you are, months after the fact sticking to a thoroughly discredited story as though nothing has happened!

    You *do* know that GZ is actually 1/8 black? That’s enough to get you recorded as black for racial quotas in many colleges.

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  46. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    scrubone (2,610) Says:
    August 22nd, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    You *do* know that GZ is actually 1/8 black? That’s enough to get you recorded as black for racial quotas in many colleges.

    So? He doesn’t look black, which is the point. Obama is half white. But he’s not regarded as the first half-white/half-black president. He’s regarded as the first black president. Perception is not determined by an examination of one’s family tree. It’s determined by casual observation. I’m not sure why this point is so remarkable to you, or why you dispute it.

    I’m not even contending that it proves anything about the incident… simply that it explains public reaction.

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  47. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    scrubone (2,610) Says:
    August 22nd, 2013 at 2:11 pm

    Yea, evidence be damned.

    The evidence does not prove his innocence. It proves reasonable doubt about his guilt. No one’s been held to account for the death of the Kahui twins either, but someone was responsible. Not guilty is not the same as proven innocent.

    The evidence in the GZ case indicates that Martin was on top of GZ attacking him when he used his weapon to defend himself. It does not prove that GZ did not initiate the altercation, or whether Martin initiated it, or whether they both initiated it.

    In my view to engage in fighting and then resort to a lethal weapon when you are losing does not make you a victim. I do not have proof that this is what GZ did, and it is necessary that he be presumed innocent under the law. But I do not find it credible that he played no part in starting this altercation. It is speculative to be sure, but no more speculative than the hero status that he has been afforded by the good folks at Kiwiblog.

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  48. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    hj (4,585) Says:
    August 22nd, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    What bothers me about this case is that thrill killing is probably a far greater motive for violence than given credit and it is one of the reasons i support the death penalty (as an option).

    I’m not sure how your premise leads to your conclusion. Are other motives superior to killing for a thrill? Do you suppose the death penalty is likely to dissuade those who kill for a thrill versus those who kill for other reasons? That would be an interesting theory given that these offenders are possibly facing the death penalty. Clearly not a disincentive. If one assumes any sort of logic, if it’s done out of a thrill surely the risk of the death penalty increases the thrill.

    In any case, after reading one of the offenders twitter feeds I’m not sure anything could possibly have been done to prevent it. They display extreme sociopathic tendencies mixed with racism and immaturity. One can only wonder: where were the parents?

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  49. scrubone (3,082 comments) says:

    In my view to engage in fighting and then resort to a lethal weapon when you are losing does not make you a victim.

    But as you say, that assumes he engaged in fighting, and there’s absolutely no evidence of that. Hence my position that he is a victim.

    I do not have proof that this is what GZ did, and it is necessary that he be presumed innocent under the law. But I do not find it credible that he played no part in starting this altercation.

    It’s one thing to say “there was not enough evidence to convict”.

    It’s quote another to say “even though there is no evidence, and the evidence we do have is consistent with him not doing it, I believe he may have done this”.

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  50. hj (6,732 comments) says:

    Weihana (3,559) Says:

    I’m not sure how your premise leads to your conclusion. Are other motives superior to killing for a thrill?
    ………………………….
    It seems to me that just about every murderer who is found guilty becomes a “poor bugger” whose circumstances forced him to take a certain path. I’m saying thrill killing is an argument for the death penalty as it is pure evil.
    Recent example of thrill kill: the two thugs who beat the RNZ journalist to death. Judge called it “recreational violence”.

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  51. scrubone (3,082 comments) says:

    So? He doesn’t look black, which is the point.

    You keep calling him white. He isn’t.

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  52. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Weihana , so you think Zimmerman should have had his brains smashed out on the pavement, so as not to offend your anti gun/Puerto Rican views ? Why do you think “wet backs” should not be allowed the most basic human right of self defense ? Do you regard them as lessor beings ?

    Provide reasons.

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  53. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    scrubone (2,613) Says:
    August 22nd, 2013 at 3:02 pm

    But as you say, that assumes he engaged in fighting, and there’s absolutely no evidence of that. Hence my position that he is a victim.

    Which assumes that Martin initiated the altercation. That is speculative also.

    It’s one thing to say “there was not enough evidence to convict”.

    It’s quote another to say “even though there is no evidence, and the evidence we do have is consistent with him not doing it, I believe he may have done this”.

    You talk of the evidence being “consistent” with his story. This case is defined by a lack of evidence of how the altercation unfolded. The evidence is consistent with him being overpowered by Martin and resorting to his weapon out of fear. It does not prove how it started.

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  54. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Kea (6,959) Says:
    August 22nd, 2013 at 3:19 pm

    You assume Martin wasn’t defending himself. Perhaps GZ tried to grab him, perhaps he didn’t. Perhaps it’s better to just let the cops deal with these situations rather than putting oneself into a situation in which an altercation may eventuate.

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  55. scrubone (3,082 comments) says:

    You talk of the evidence being “consistent” with his story. This case is defined by a lack of evidence of how the altercation unfolded.

    By that, you mean that there is no witness outside GZ, and no video.

    But what I mean is all the other stuff. All the background information, all the interviews with the police, everything. Somewhere in that background, there would be something that pointed to the possiblility that GZ initiated the conflict. But there isn’t.

    For example, if GZ initiated the fight, there would not be police testimony that GZ responded with profound relief to the idea that it was filmed.

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  56. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    scrubone (2,613) Says:
    August 22nd, 2013 at 3:09 pm

    So? He doesn’t look black, which is the point.

    You keep calling him white. He isn’t.

    Are white and hispanic mutually exclusive?

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  57. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Weihana, no I assume nothing. The evidence showed Zimmerman was defending himself from Martins attack. He was not charged with being racist, but if he were, that would have failed also. You have clearly done very little reading about Zimmerman.

    Perhaps you can make up a colour chart to show who can defend their lives and who can not. That should avoid furture confusion :)

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  58. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Are white and hispanic African mutually exclusive?

    Have you actually seen a photo of the guy ?

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  59. scrubone (3,082 comments) says:

    Are white and hispanic mutually exclusive?

    If GZ walked into a KKK meeting he might not leave with his life.

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  60. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Kea (6,965) Says:
    August 22nd, 2013 at 3:50 pm

    The evidence showed Zimmerman was defending himself from Martins attack.

    Agreed, hence the acquittal. But the evidence does not show what came before. To defend oneself from an unprovoked attack and to defend oneself from an attack that you provoked are two different things. I accept that GZ has a right to self defense, hence why the acquittal was justified on the evidence.

    For example, if GZ initiated the fight, there would not be police testimony that GZ responded with profound relief to the idea that it was filmed.

    What does this prove? It’s a third party account of someone else’s state of mind. Pretty tenuous. The relief could have been fake, he may have assumed that any prior action he did was negated by the severity of Martin’s attack, he may have believed he had a right to grab Martin, the police interpretation of his response could be mistaken. Who knows? I’m not saying your position is necessarily wrong, but your conclusion that he is a victim is still speculative and based on evidence that is hardly conclusive.

    Rachel Jeantel believes that Martin threw the first punch after being grabbed. To me that rings true for an overzealous neighbourhood watchman who is sick of thieves getting away. Also when you consider that Martin was a minor it seems likely to me that many adults would not treat a teenager as if they were an adult where they could not be touched or grabbed or assaulted in any way, particularly when it is presumed that they are up to no good. GZ believed Martin was a thief, he didn’t want him to get away, he was an adult, Martin wasn’t, did he grab him? I would say that sounds pretty likely to me. But yes, speculative, as is your belief.

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  61. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Weihana, are you suggesting GZ should have let Martin kill him, because GZ started it ?

    I am basing my position on available evidence, not on speculation. I suggest you put yourself in GZ shoes. The poor bugger even had the racist black president against him ! It should have never made it to court on that basis alone. If a black thug started smashing your head into the pavement you may see things differently. And being Maori won’t save you, anymore than being South American saved GZ from accusations of racism.

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  62. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Kea (6,966) Says:
    August 22nd, 2013 at 5:53 pm

    Weihana, are you suggesting GZ should have let Martin kill him, because GZ started it ?

    I’m suggesting that it is not self-defense if you initiate the altercation. I don’t know about Florida law, but in my view if he initiated the confrontation by grabbing Martin he should be guilty of manslaughter. That could not be proven therefore the acquittal was justified.

    You say you aren’t speculating but to conclude GZ is a victim is very much speculation as it assumes much more than a reasonable doubt about his guilt it assumes that he played no part in provoking or initiating the altercation. You simply do not know that that is the case.

    And I am not afraid of having my head bashed into a pavement because if I think someone is up to no good I will phone the cops and let them deal with it.

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  63. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I’m suggesting that it is not self-defense if you initiate the altercation.

    Weihana, you are way too smart not to see the problem with that statement. Even in NZ we can use reasonable force to defend ourselves from an attack. You can not just pound someones head into the pavement because they grabbed you.

    You know all that though you little troll :)

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  64. Longknives (4,686 comments) says:

    Didn’t hear much outrage from Obama, Jackson, Sharpton or even Weihana when this one happened either…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom

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  65. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Kea,

    True, but you also have an obligation to retreat. You cannot enter into an altercation on the assumption that self-defense will protect you.

    You talk of reasonable force, but what is reasonable for Martin? If someone grabbed you, might you wrestle? If someone wrestled with you and you got the upper hand might you hit them? And of course if you are the one being hit might you reach for your gun and shoot?

    The point Kea is that fights often escalate, and they can do so very quickly. From a grab, to wrestling, to hitting, to firing a weapon. The evidence indicates that Martin was on top of GZ and hitting him and that other than an abrasion on his left ring finger, showed no other injuries. That does not prove to me that GZ played no role in escalating the altercation to the point where Martin started hitting him. Fact is we simply do not know how it played out and GZ is really the only one who gets to tell us.

    He should have stayed in his car, that’s the bottom line. When a cop tells you they don’t need you to follow, DON’T FOLLOW. Listen to them. You are not responsible for enforcing the law, they are.

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  66. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Longknives (2,815) Says:
    August 22nd, 2013 at 9:53 pm

    Didn’t hear much outrage from Obama, Jackson, Sharpton or even Weihana when this one happened either…

    I’m sorry, do you expect me to report to you my outrage over every single crime that occurs in the world? Maybe I should get a list of everyone who is murdered every day and report to you just to remind you that, yes, I am outraged that people kill other people.

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  67. Longknives (4,686 comments) says:

    Then why all the howling and wailing over the loss of ‘Angelic’ little Trayvon Obama??

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  68. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “When a cop tells you …”

    Weihana, A cops son beat up a homeless black man. He was not prosecuted. Zimmerman pushed to have the cops son prosecuted. He eventually was, thanks largely to Zimmerman. Maybe he lost some respect for the cops after that. Zimmerman was a good guy. When a black lady had her house burgled, Zimmerman gave her the keys to his house. He was in a business partnership with a black guy. He played an active part in a mixed neighborhood. He is the sort of guy you want living next door.

    If you want to pick on a racist, try Obama.

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