Debating is meant to cover controversial topics

November 28th, 2013 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

Stuff reports:

An international competition held in Wellington has been criticised for mooting that girls should be told to drink responsibly to avoid sexual assault.

The New Zealand British Parliamentary Debating Championships hosted by Victoria University last weekend debated that “This House, as a parent, would tell their daughter to drink responsibly to avoid sexual assault”.

The topic left female debaters “forced to defend their own rights to consume alcohol and have consensual sex”, a spectator, who wished to remain anonymous, said. 

The tournament was held on behalf of the New Zealand Universities Debating Council, and included teams from around the country, and some from Australia.

The spectator said many of the female participants in the tournament were adamant they did not wish to engage in the debate, but were pressured into “hardening up” and arguing the motion.

“What resulted were many of the male debaters literally laughing at their female peers as they tried to defend their own rights to consume alcohol and have consensual sex, and there was also much joking about the circumstances in which sexual assault occurs,” she said.

Participants were reduced to tears both during and after the debate, she said.

“One woman began crying during the debate which she participated in, and others were crying after the debate, for reasons ranging from personal experiences with rape, to the sheer shock of feeling they had to defend those rapists.”

Debate topics across the weekend were set by chief adjudicator Stephen Whittington, a former member of the Victoria University Debating Society.

Considering the sensitivity of the topic, he discussed the motion with five other adjudicators before setting it, he said.

Each of them agreed it was acceptable for the purposes of a debating tournament, Whittington said.

“As part of that discussion we discussed what the purpose of debating was, and as part of that discussion we talked about the fact that debating often requires people to defend ideas or arguments that they don’t personally agree with, even in circumstances where people do in fact have very strong views about those issues.”

Debating the morality of abortion, or whether Israel had a right to exist as a country, were instances in which people could have strong views on a topic and be forced to take the other side of the argument, he said.

Whittington said the idea for the premise of the debate was based on an article in Slate magazine, written by Emily Yoffe.

The view that women shouldn’t drink to avoid being sexually assaulted is a neanderthal one. However I don’t think you do anyone a service by saying that such a view can not be the topic of a debate. Far better to allow the topic to be debated and have talented debaters expose the massive flaws in that argument.

As Whittington says, many debating topics are controversial and may involve deeply personal issues such as abortion.

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144 Responses to “Debating is meant to cover controversial topics”

  1. redqueen (346 comments) says:

    Maybe such women shouldn’t show up to debates ill-prepared to deal with contraversial topics…or is that neanderthal as well?

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  2. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    “…The view that women shouldn’t drink to avoid being sexually assaulted is a neanderthal one….”

    Are you being a smartarse or are you just mistaken?

    “…..mooting that girls should be told to drink RESPONSIBLY to avoid sexual assault….” – was the debate!!!!!!!!!

    “….responsibly…” ————– It’s about being cautious when you ARE drunk. Just like most drunk men are cautious – they don’t wander about in the company of strangers and in unkown places when drunk because they MAY become a victim of robbery and assault !!!!!

    Taking strangers home to have sex with them after you have suggested it, and while both being drunk and half naked on the couch – then saying ‘no’ – MAY lead to rape!

    Rapists will always be in society – you will never get rid of them all – and women should remain cautious about that.

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  3. wikiriwhis business (3,302 comments) says:

    Obviously, females should drink in groups and protect each other. Which I thought is natural for the hens to gather together.

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  4. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ Harriet (3,081) Says:
    November 28th, 2013 at 10:16 am

    Women should moderate themselves, but rapists on the other hand should carry on as usual, and do whatever they like???

    Why not remove the category from out Crimes Act as well!!

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  5. tas (528 comments) says:

    Sigh. If you can’t debate offensive issues, then you shouldn’t participate in a debating contest. Collect yourself and explain why you find the moot offensive.

    That said, I would advise my daughter to drink responsibly to avoid sexual assault. That doesn’t mean I think women don’t have the right to drink and not be raped. It means I think there are people out there who think being drunk equates to consent. Those are terrible people (and I am not one of them), but you need to protect yourself from them.

    I also advise people to not walk around bad parts of town late at night. (I live in the US.) That doesn’t mean I think people don’t have the right to go for a walk and not be murdered. It means I think there are people out there who will shoot you for no reason and you need to avoid them.

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  6. dave_c_ (206 comments) says:

    Who are these neanderthal academics, and what political pursuasion if being pushed here !
    Sack the lot of them
    they should be promoting ideas that put the blame for rape and other horrific crimes right where it belongs
    Bollocks to them all.

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  7. Andrei (2,431 comments) says:

    The view that women shouldn’t drink to avoid being sexually assaulted people shouldn’t drink before driving to avoid being involved in a car accident is a neanderthal one.

    Progressives are not noted for their grasp of logic

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  8. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    “….Women should moderate themselves, but rapists on the other hand should carry on as usual, and do whatever they like???
    ….Why not remove the category from out Crimes Act as well!!…”

    Stop being an idiot Judith, you know full well I’m not saying anything like that.

    A rapist is a rapist Judith – or are you saying that it is O’K to ‘moderatly’ rape a woman? Of course you’re not!

    Why do you keep your doors locked at night Judith – for your X-Box – or your dignity?

    Stop being a feminist slogan thrower Judith. Start thinking for yourself!

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  9. wreck1080 (3,529 comments) says:

    This is another of those ideal world vs reality debates.

    Just because something is wrong and should not be tolerated by society does not make it so

    You can have all the ideals that you like but realities don’t necessarily follow. It is a distasteful reality that women are more easily (and more likely) to be sexually assaulted while drunk.

    The difficulty with drinking ‘responsibly’ is that the ability to do so greatly diminishes after each drink, thus it is a self destructive feedback loop.

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  10. Ed Snack (1,540 comments) says:

    Judith, you win teh internets for the most fuck-witted strawman arguement of the year so far ! Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, aren’t ever capable of an honest argument ?

    It’s real easy to “win” when you completely misrepresent the opposition past parody, try arguing against the substance, or are you in fact arguing that irresponsible drinking should be the norm and everyone had just better get used to it ?

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  11. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    Is the view that people shouldn’t lock their doors to avoid being robbed a neanderthal one?

    Is the view that people should look both ways before crossing the street to avoid being run over also a neanderthal one?

    Women should moderate themselves, but rapists on the other hand should carry on as usual, and do whatever they like???

    Women should moderate themselves.
    Rape is bad and Rapists shouldnt rape people.

    Only an idiot thinks that the first statement necessitates a rejection of the second.

    Would I tell my daughter to drink responsibly? Yes.

    Why?

    To avoid social embarrassment. Fine.
    To avoid having an accident. Fine.
    To avoid being susceptible to sexual predators. RAPE APOLOGIST!

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  12. Vinick (213 comments) says:

    What an absurd beat-up. I’ve been to debating tournaments where taboo subjects like incest and bestiality were debated, along with legalising all drug use, enforcing a maximum wage, and permitting local authorities to introduce shariah law.

    The purpose of these topics is not to test whether or not they’re ‘good’ ideas; they’re to test how good debaters are, often taking positions they might otherwise find extreme or even repulsive.

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  13. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ Ed Snack (1,221) Says:
    November 28th, 2013 at 10:31 am

    I didn’t say women shouldn’t moderate what they do, but Harriet is always banging on how it is only them that are to blame (boys will be boys type thinking), how about we put a bit of time and energy into working out why there are these creeps in society, and attempting to at least reduce the sexual violence (i.e. moderate the rapists) as well.

    All we hear is how the females should be careful – never that the males should be taught ‘don’t rape’.

    I’ve bought up three sons:
    First Rule, if they say no stop,
    Second if they arent sure, stop
    Third: if you don’t know enough about them stop anyway – in case you get accused of sommit you didn’t do – visit a prostitute if you are that desperate.

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  14. Ed Snack (1,540 comments) says:

    Judith, Oh I see, men are never told not to rape, got it. Fuckwit. Self righteousness taken far enough to make parody a parody.

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  15. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    Ed Snack (1,222) Says:
    November 28th, 2013 at 10:44 am

    you are very naive if you think everyone is bought up with the standards you suggest.

    Whilst the vast majority are given those guidelines, there are many that aren’t and worst still, there are some that are actually told by their Dad’s and male role models to ‘go ahead, she’ll like it once its done’.

    I’ve worked with offenders, and sexual offenders for years – you obviously have no idea how some in society are bought up (or should I say dragged up)

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  16. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    “…..Would I tell my daughter to drink responsibly? Yes.

    Why?

    To avoid social embarrassment. Fine.
    To avoid having an accident. Fine.
    To avoid being susceptible to sexual predators. RAPE APOLOGIST!…………..”

    You nailed that Kimble – pun unintended! :cool:

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  17. wikiriwhis business (3,302 comments) says:

    ‘visit a prostitute if you are that desperate.’

    considering the case of the Lost Prophet, sexual crime is certainly not about personal economics.

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  18. Raphael (61 comments) says:

    Shoulda gone with “This House, as a parent, would tell their son/daughter to drink responsibly otherwise they are blithering idiots”
    You can go out and have a great time with your mates, and still drink responsibly.

    If you drink irresponsibly you have a good chance of bad things happening to you.

    On the particular subject of the debate they actually had:
    First of all _nothing_ should excuse a rapist of their actions.

    This is about you reducing your own risks. No matter what the situation you can reduce your risks from various things be being responsible.
    Do rapists prey on girls who have been irresponsible with their drinking and are vulnerable? Yes they do. Is it right that they do? Well ofcourse not. But that isn’t going to stop them.

    I have four young daughters. I will be teaching them that they can reduce the risk of become a victim of these bastards by drinking responsibly.

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  19. Ed Snack (1,540 comments) says:

    Oh, on-line pyscho-analysing now Judith. Thanks for the information, I don’t know anything about people or life, got it. One extra bit of info I don’t really want but I’m sure you can tell me: what’s it like to be so far up yourself ?

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  20. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ Ed Snack (1,224) Says:
    November 28th, 2013 at 11:01 am

    Clearly you don’t even know what psycho-analysis is, so why make a bigger dick of yourself by using the term in the wrong context?

    You are the one that stated very clearly ” Oh I see, men are never told not to rape”.

    Are you now withdrawing your previous statement, and wish to clarify it as “Oh I see, SOME men are never told not to rape” ?

    You either stand by your statement or you don’t – it appears to me you change your mind from one comment to the next – either that or you are just looking for an argument, in which case you’ve found it!

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  21. rouppe (852 comments) says:

    I kind of see where Judith is coming from, but I believe she is not representing the situation fairly. Which shouldn’t result in being flamed I don’t think. But anyway…

    The basic error of your premise Judith is that you think boys/men aren’t told that taking advantage of a female incapable of giving consent is wrong. This is patently false. It is false because the general standard of upbringing includes lessons about ‘right’ and ‘wrong’. Stealing, lying, bullying. The Roast Busters have ignored that upbringing for whatever reason. Personally I think it is because they are living in an environment where they have significant privilege and get away with many more things that other people usually would. One has an absent father who associates with movie glitterati. he must be OK at it if he has work in Hollywood. The other is protected by the fathers occupation. I note that neither father appears to have publicly repudiated their sons behaviour.

    You are highlighting the example of (relatively) very very few occasions where this has happened, and then label all males with the brush. This is usually called prejudice. One could equally say that because Ms X (not talking about the victims here) is a dirty slapper, all women are dirty slappers. Obviously false.

    So what the general tenor of the argument here is, one must behave in a manner befitting the circumstances. In all walks of life. If one is on holiday somewhere, where you are unfamiliar with the people, the area, the customs, you don’t get drunk to a point where you lose your wits, because it is dangerous.

    Similarly, if someone is at a party with a bunch of males that she doesn’t know, or a bunch of males who are known to have sex with drunk girls, then a) you don’t get drunk, and b) you might think about helping/protecting the ones who do get drunk. I note everyone at that party watched and did nothing. Males and females.

    However if that same girl is at a party, with known people who can be trusted, then perhaps getting that drunk might be safer. You’ll probably still embarrass yourself, but you’ll be safe. Behaviour befitting the circumstances.

    Being able to say no, and being enabled by your friends support to say no, will also ultimately change other people’s behaviour.

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  22. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    “….I’ve worked with offenders, and sexual offenders for years – you obviously have no idea how some in society are bought up (or should I say dragged up)….”

    And IF that is the TRUTH Judith – then YOU would ALSO KNOW that ALL rapists watch PORN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    When porn is saturated amongst society the supply and demand equation for prostitutes becomes unbalanced leading to sex trafficking!!!!!! And rape!!!!!!

    I’m sure that you HAVEN’T worked with sexual offenders for years Judith – because you HAVE SUGGESTED IN THE PAST that it is ok to saturate society with porn!!!!

    You are nothing more than a feminist slogan thrower Judith!!!!!!

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  23. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ rouppe (756) Says:
    November 28th, 2013 at 11:07 am

    Another person who CAN’T read, what part of this statement don’t you understand?

    Judith (4,574) Says:
    November 28th, 2013 at 10:54 am
    …Whilst the vast majority are given those guidelines…

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  24. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ Harriet (3,085) Says:
    November 28th, 2013 at 11:09 am

    Yes, many rapists do watch porn Harriet (you have point) but not ALL watch it.
    Rape is a complicated area, and there are many reasons why people rape – not all of it is because they have accessed porn.

    The biggest mistake we can make is grouping all sex offenders in to the one bracket. The motivations are very different, as are the manner in which they go about their crimes, the number of times they offend and so on.

    I do agree that a general break down that some societal standards does not assist the situation, and are first to agree that role models such a Mily Cyrus do nothing to help keep our kids safe – but that is not the sole cause, and we need to acknowledge that rape has been part of human behaviour for centuries.

    As far as the rest of your statement is concerned, bullshit, I’ve never agree that saturating society with porn is a good thing….

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  25. Ed Snack (1,540 comments) says:

    Judith, I thought I’d use “popular” terms for what you are subconsciously doing in case you didn’t understand otherwise. You haven’t otherwise shown a great deal of self awareness you realize, or actually, you probably don’t. It might help to get out a little. As for making a dick of myself, thanks for providing such a stunning example.

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  26. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ Ed Snack (1,225) Says:
    November 28th, 2013 at 11:24 am

    Another half witted statement that says absolutely nothing… the usual ‘get out more’ comments, when of course you have no way of knowing whether I do or not – in fact, like the rest of your uninformed comments, based on nothing but convenient terms to try and avoid answering the question – do you wish to change your original statement to accept that not ALL males are given the appropriate guidelines? Or are you going to continue to sidestep with pathetic put downs?

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  27. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    There are two factors to consider, in the context of partying, as opposed to being jumped by a stranger walking across a park. First, the girls want to be sexually attractive, even at 13. Probably, knowingly or not, many want a sexual experience although not necessarily sexual intercourse, now blithely referred to as “sex”. Second, boys tend to be aggressive and some become insistent past the point most of us would consider honourable. But, in my view if there’s no violence or threats, then it’s not rape, whatever the law now dictates about incontrovertible consent.

    As I have said before, there is a whole big area of ambiguity, where there can be confusion and misunderstanding, and regret, even amongst generally decent people.

    Mantras such as “No is no” and “Rape is rape” are not really helpful.

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  28. labrator (1,691 comments) says:

    To avoid being susceptible to sexual predators.

    To me this is the key word. Stop thinking of rapists as contributory members of society. They’re predators. I wouldn’t get drunk and walk around the Sumatran jungle no matter what the statute books said, a tiger might kill me. Flip that same argument into “women shouldn’t walk down dark alleys at night wasted” and apparently EVERYTHING changes.

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  29. rouppe (852 comments) says:

    Actually, Judith I was writing my post when you put that one up, as the last one I saw was Ed’s.

    But hey, since you’ve decided to attack anyone who disagrees with you, go vote for the Greens, they like that attitude there

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  30. kowtow (6,723 comments) says:

    The debate clearly caused offence to an oppressed victim minority group…….as such it is hate speech and should be against the law!

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  31. Ed Snack (1,540 comments) says:

    Judith, at the risk of becoming an “explaining is losing” participant”, you are simply losing it. That statement was never the key to your position, or at least it didn’t really feature until you needed some kind of stick to beat people with so you can keep repeating it and think that you’re “winning”.

    And you’re right about one thing, I have no way if you do get out a lot or not, but if you don’t want the gratuitous advise, stop performing in a way that implies that such advise is germane.

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  32. Zapper (845 comments) says:

    I see this “teach men not to rape” crap all over the internets. I was never “taught” not to rape. Neither were any of my friends. None of us are rapists. How did that happen?

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  33. kowtow (6,723 comments) says:

    zapper

    It’s cultural marxism.

    Identify the “oppressor” (males,preferably white) and then divide and conquer.

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  34. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    To me this is the key word. Stop thinking of rapists as contributory members of society. They’re predators.

    I sometimes wonder if this isn’t part of the problem. People who have sex with women without their consent (rapists) often don’t think of themselves as predators, or think of themselves as rapists. And because they don’t fit their own mental image of what a rapist must be, they don’t recognise their actions as rape.

    I assume that’s what people mean when they say “teach men not to rape”. Obviously it’s not “tell men not to act like they think a rapist acts”, because they already know that. Instead it’s “expand their definition from what they imagine constitutes rape to include all of what actually constitutes rape”.

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  35. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    There is no “rape culture” and all most all men think it a terrible crime. Fake studies and statistics from feminist hate groups are only evidence of a “anti male hate culture” and nothing else.

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  36. Zapper (845 comments) says:

    If that’s the case Ryan, then there must be some fucking idiots out there who need to be taught what is rape and what isn’t.

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  37. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    I assume that’s what people mean when they say “teach men not to rape”. Obviously it’s not “tell men not to act like they think a rapist acts”, because they already know that.

    Your assumption fails when the ‘teach men not to rape’ is preceded by an absurd demand that women should not improve their chance of not being raped.

    Assuming we live in a world where rape exists, which is the most appropriate action? Actively reducing your risk of being raped, or doing nothing but complaining about living in a world where rape exists.

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  38. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Imagine this society:

    A woman decides to leave her abusive and unstable husband after years of misery.

    The man flies into a jealous rage, drugs the woman, ties her to a bed, and mutilates her genitals with a knife, so she can never have sex again.

    Men laugh and joke about this on television and talk shows. It is considered a big joke. The man is portrayed as a victim.

    Now stop imagining and simply reverse the genders. This is our society today: http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/06/03/lorena-bobbitt-and-the-politics-of-hate/\

    Fuck feminism !

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  39. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Debate is not allowed in our feminist hell hole NZ. The most radical feminist hate speech is considered normal accepted wisdom.

    Mr Farrar is a well known personality who attends many functions. All it would to take to destroy him is this:

    1. An anonymous caller to talk back radio [falsely] accusses him of raping her after a cocktail evening.

    2. The radio hosts [fearful of losing their jobs] accept her claim without question or enquiry.

    3. She becomes the victim and David the rapist/attacker, from that point on.

    4. No debate is allowed. Anyone who questions – that David is a rapist- is shut down. Even on private blogs.

    5. The police investigate but find no evidence to even lay a charge, let alone secure a conviction.

    6. The police are investigated for not charging with no evidence.

    7. A special group is formed to persecute David as a rapist.

    8. A petition is circulated to persecute David.

    9. He is destroyed socially and professionally.

    Remember, Innocence is no defense for rape !

    Welcome to NZ fuckwits.

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  40. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Why did the anonymous caller make that call?

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  41. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Ryan, who knows ?

    Rejected lover, revenge, mental illness, political opponent…

    They have nothing to lose. False rape accusers are treated as the “victims” here in NZ. Our laughable “justice” system thinks any woman who does that is a victim of “something”. Same as if they attack a male. The assumption is the man did something to deserve it and the female attacker is the victim. Like in that brutal sexual assault and multilation I mentioned above, for example.

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  42. LabourDoesntWork (278 comments) says:

    The view that women shouldn’t drink to avoid being sexually assaulted is a neanderthal one.

    Alcohol impairs judgment. This would seem to have real and possibly serious consequences given the number rapists in any given watering hole.

    Feminists constantly advocate patriarchy when they insist that things that happen to women are never to do with women’s own choices. Rather, the well-being of women depends entirely on the actions and behaviour of men.

    Women – empower yourselves. Free yourself from feminism and the bad advice of aging feminists lacking common sense, who view women as so helpless that a few drinks literally won’t make any difference.

    For them, portraying women as innocent victims is more politically useful than actually giving women helpful advice.

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  43. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    The view that women shouldn’t drink to avoid being sexually assaulted maimed in car accidents is a neanderthal one.

    The real issue with women drinking is, retrospectively withdrawing consent, not with being raped.

    Not that anyone will accept this tact among the middle aged chest beating males infesting this topic.

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  44. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Rejected lover, revenge, mental illness, political opponent…

    They have nothing to lose. False rape accusers are treated as the “victims” here in NZ. Our laughable “justice” system thinks any woman who does that is a victim of “something”. Same as if they attack a male. The assumption is the man did something to deserve it and the female attacker is the victim. Like in that brutal sexual assault and multilation I mentioned above, for example.

    So how should men behave to lower the chances of being falsely accused of rape? In your scenario, you mention that David’s a well-known personality attending many functions. Is that something that increases the chances of being falsely accused? Should we avoid that?

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  45. labrator (1,691 comments) says:

    I sometimes wonder if this isn’t part of the problem.

    The whole purpose of the tiger analogy was that it doesn’t matter what the tiger thinks, whether the tiger is right or wrong or what your legal rights are. It’s that tigers are dangerous and if you want to reduce your risks of being eaten by a tiger then there are some sensible precautions you can take.

    If you want to reduce the number of tigers or eliminate them entirely, that’s a different discussion.

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  46. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    So how should men behave to lower the chances of being falsely accused of rape? In your scenario, you mention that David’s a well-known personality attending many functions. Is that something that increases the chances of being falsely accused? Should we avoid that?

    1. You are blaming the victim and not the rape accuser. But… Personally I do not mix sex and drinking, unless it is with an established steady girlfriend. I advise others to do the same. Flirting and drink mix well, sex and drinking do not.

    2. Yes it does increase the chances of David being the victim of a rape accuser.

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  47. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    1. You are blaming the victim and not the rape accuser.

    Yes, I wasn’t being very subtle.

    But… Personally I do not mix sex and drinking, unless it is with an established steady girlfriend. I advise others to do the same. Flirting and drink mix well, sex and drinking do not.

    That’s pretty good advice for many different reasons. Well put.

    2. Yes it does increase the chances of David being the victim of a rape accuser.

    Besides not being a well-known personality attending cocktail evenings, is there anything else David could have done in your scenario to reduce his chances of being falsely accused?

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  48. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    The whole purpose of the tiger analogy was that it doesn’t matter what the tiger thinks, whether the tiger is right or wrong or what your legal rights are. It’s that tigers are dangerous and if you want to reduce your risks of being eaten by a tiger then there are some sensible precautions you can take.

    If you want to reduce the number of tigers or eliminate them entirely, that’s a different discussion.

    That’s why the analogy breaks down, Labrator. It doesn’t matter what the tiger thinks, but it does matter what the potential rapist thinks – what the potential rapist thinks can make the difference between devastating a life or not. And potential rapists who think they have to be like mindless tigers to be crossing the line do not know where the line is.

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  49. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    I see this “teach men not to rape” crap all over the internets.

    The reason for that is that modern feminism is less interested in practical steps to improve the moral standing of women in society and more interested in converting society to an odd set of beliefs about the role of culture in belief and behaviour formation. Once you understand their hidden agenda, what looks like mere stubbornness because easier to understand.

    The basic underlying idea is that they think that almost everything to do with human behaviour is wholly or mostly determined by culture rather than biology (especially gender roles and norms). That’s why they spend so much futile effort on establishing terms like “rape culture”. After all, if they are right, cultural politics and cultural transformation will guarantee a non-sexist society in which people no longer rape, because rape is in their view a learned behaviour.

    I don’t think anyone argues that widely held beliefs about sex and consent would affect the frequency of rape in a society. Certainly, in the Middle East, aggressive sexual behaviour towards women is normalised and crimes like rape are depressingly common. But it’s a long way from recognising that to the claim that rape can be “solved” by changing NZ’s culture.

    The truth is that rape and male sexual aggression in a large part biological phenomena. It is not unique to our species and depressingly common in times of war and social breakdown. It’s not hard to see how sexually aggression could have some reproductive advantage, which would account for its persistence in the human and animal worlds. It’s also even easier to see why women find rape so distressing, since women who weren’t particularly choosy about who they copulated with would have less fit offspring.

    The culturalists want to deny this, but you should see how mental they get if you suggest that the easiest cultural solution would be for us to encourage raped women to stop caring so much about it, since the disvalue they experience from being raped is just a cultural construct.

    There are lots of things an enlightened society could do to reduce the frequency of rape. Telling rapists not to is probably going to be about as effective as telling burglars to stop robbing people, but there are other things that could be done.

    But it won’t happen: the debate about rape has been taken over by a moronic, anti-scientific ideology championed by stupid, shouty people.

    It’s sad, but what are you going to do?

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  50. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Tom,

    That is a properly fucked-up way of looking at things.

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  51. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    And potential rapists who think they have to be like mindless tigers to be crossing the line do not know where the line is.

    Most of them know where it is. They just don’t care.

    The vast majority of rapes are committed by a very small minority of repeat offenders. They manage to repeat the offence because they are very very skilled at manoeuvring women into situations where the latter are vulnerable and in which evidence of rape will be murky or non-existent. This is predatory behaviour.

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  52. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    That is a properly fucked-up way of looking at things.

    The world is a fucked up place. Trying to pretend that it isn’t just makes things worse.

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  53. labrator (1,691 comments) says:

    but it does matter what the potential rapist thinks

    Please explain why it matters what a potential rapist thinks? If you’re dead because you were mauled be a tiger it doesn’t matter want a bunch of academics think about how the tiger viewed the victim or its proclivities before hand.

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  54. SPC (4,675 comments) says:

    Tom, the majority of convicted rapists may well be repeat offenders. Given the statistics, as to the numbers convicted and the number of women who say they have been raped, we have no idea whether the convicted rapists represent the total. One would suspect that they do not.

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  55. OneTrack (1,977 comments) says:

    After the JT and Willie debacle, surely the organisers realised this is now a third-rail issue. What were they thinking?

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  56. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Guys, this idea that people are “telling rapists not to” has to be discarded. That is not what is happening, and we are either consciously or unconsciously (and unfairly) dismissing the real point these advocates make if we paint their argument up as a ridiculous strawman.

    No one is arguing that if you tell rapists, “Hey, don’t rape,” they’re going to stop. No one is arguing that.

    What they are arguing is that there are actions that relatively well-meaning guys have been brought up to believe are normal which are unacceptable. They do not think of themselves as rapists, so telling them, “Don’t rape,” is only going to elicit a shrug and an, “I don’t.”

    What they’re saying is that if you take a guy who doesn’t think of himself as a rapist, who doesn’t think of certain behaviours as rapacious, who thinks of himself as a basically good guy who would be horrified by someone doing what he considers rape, and you show that guy that there are a bunch of normal accepted behaviours in his corner of the world that are totally unacceptable, that guy’s future behaviour will change for the better.

    That, Labrator, is why it matters what the potential rapist thinks. Because any human being is a potential rapist, and a clear understanding of consent is something that will strongly influence whether or not any given human being becomes an actual rapist.

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  57. SPC (4,675 comments) says:

    And Tom, why the reference to feminism needing to take “practical steps to improve the moral standing of women in society”, when as you yourself note in the rather “moralist” ME the less than equal status of women is one major driver of their abuse of women.

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  58. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    The truth is that rape and male sexual aggression in a large part biological phenomena. It is not unique to our species and depressingly common in times of war and social breakdown.

    Evolultion is about gene survival not morality. However our aversion to rape is for that same reason. It means anothers genes could be promoted ahead of our own. Both rape and aversion to rape, have an evolutionary explanation.

    In times of war the same men who would be strongly opposed to rape, suddenly start raping.

    In the bible, and most older societies, rape is a property crime, with the wronged party being a man.

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  59. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Evolultion is about gene survival not morality. However our aversion to rape is for that same reason. It means anothers genes could be promoted ahead of our own. Both rape and aversion to rape, have an evolutionary explanation.

    I would argue that the evolutionary foundations of aversion to rape are founded in evolved compassion, rather than genocentricity.

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  60. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    Ryan, your point about the breakdown of the tiger/rapist* analogy is interesting. But I dont think it is fair. We are talking about an individual woman’s ability to control her circumstances affecting the likelihood of being raped. That individual woman has NO control over the circumstances that affect any individual rapist.

    The cry ‘dont tell me to drink responsibly, tell them not to rape’ essentially boils down to ‘dont tell me to modify my actions, the whole of society needs to change’. And much more often than not, that non-sequitur IS what is being demanded. You cant separate those two parts. Even worse, very often the “tell them not to rape” part is delivered as “stop telling them to rape”, by tone and intention.

    *By far Sagat’s best finishing move in SF4!

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  61. SPC (4,675 comments) says:

    Kea, and in times of society breakdown people, who would not steal, start looting.

    Civilisation has a code of behaviour for those of it.

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  62. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Ryan, not sure you got my point ?

    We have evolved to be adverse to rape (of our own group) as they are supposed to carry OUR genes, not some other groups genes.

    Raping another groups women is a different matter. As evidenced by what actually happens in wars. The rapists would not do that within their own groups back home.

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  63. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Ryan, your point about the breakdown of the tiger/rapist* analogy is interesting. But I dont think it is fair. We are talking about an individual woman’s ability to control her circumstances affecting the likelihood of being raped. That individual woman has NO control over the circumstances that affect any individual rapist.

    The cry ‘dont tell me to drink responsibly, tell them not to rape’ essentially boils down to ‘dont tell me to modify my actions, the whole of society needs to change’. And much more often than not, that non-sequitur IS what is being demanded. You cant separate those two parts. Even worse, very often the “tell them not to rape” part is delivered as “stop telling them to rape”, by tone and intention.

    *By far Sagat’s best finishing move in SF4!

    Nice reference.

    Okay, imagine for a moment that the same people to whom you’re referring prefaced their condemnations with: “Yes, getting blind drunk is asking for trouble.” What would you think of their concerns about society then?

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  64. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Ryan, not sure you got my point ?

    We have evolved to be adverse to rape (of our own group) as they are supposed to carry OUR genes, not some other groups genes.

    Raping another groups women is a different matter. As evidenced by what actually happens in wars. The rapists would not do that within their own groups back home.

    I am equally averse to rape no matter what group the victim is from, no matter what their genetic stock, etc.

    That is why I believe my aversion to rape is founded in evolved compassion. Do you find your aversion to rape varies from group to group?

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  65. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    Tom, the majority of convicted rapists may well be repeat offenders. Given the statistics, as to the numbers convicted and the number of women who say they have been raped, we have no idea whether the convicted rapists represent the total. One would suspect that they do not.

    I’m talking about confidential surveys of men who report their own sexual violence. Something like a couple of percent of men are like this. About the same number as are psychopaths, which is probably not an accident.

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  66. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    And Tom, why the reference to feminism needing to take “practical steps to improve the moral standing of women in society”, when as you yourself note in the rather “moralist” ME the less than equal status of women is one major driver of their abuse of women.

    I think a theory that treats women as persons rather than chattels is moral. Call me evil for that.

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  67. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    That is why I believe my aversion to rape is founded in evolved compassion.

    Yes. Our ability to empathise with others gives a strong incentive not to assault them. Shame that some people lack this ability: see lawyers, stockbrokers, politicians, serial killers, etc.

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  68. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    What they’re saying is that if you take a guy who doesn’t think of himself as a rapist, who doesn’t think of certain behaviours as rapacious, who thinks of himself as a basically good guy who would be horrified by someone doing what he considers rape, and you show that guy that there are a bunch of normal accepted behaviours in his corner of the world that are totally unacceptable, that guy’s future behaviour will change for the better.

    We already do this. I think it is valuable, but the gains from this strategy have been largely realised in places like NZ, and yet rape is still a common crime.

    It’s just going to have zero effect on the small group responsible for the majority of rapes, because they simply don’t care about what the women think.

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  69. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    This is worth a read on undetected rapists. When I first read this stuff I realised how badly I had been misled about rape and rapists by much of the academic community, and I found it easy to think of people I know who are like this:

    http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/

    Original research here.

    http://www.wcsap.org/sites/www.wcsap.org/files/uploads/webinars/SV%20on%20Campus/Repeat%20Rape.pdf

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  70. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Ryan, nice scramble for the moral high ground. How is the air up there ?

    It is not about what you, or I, think. It is about observed human behaviour. My theory fits with what happens, yours clearly does not.

    evolved compassion

    Novel term. (I can pull stuff out of my arse too though) Evolution has resulted in altruism, but only if it promotes survival of the groups genes. You have failed to link the two things.

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  71. Pete George (21,828 comments) says:

    The rapists would not do that within their own groups back home.

    A significant proportion of rape occurs ‘within their own groups back home’ to the extent that it may be more common for rape to occur within families and groups of acquaintances than with strangers.

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  72. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Tom, based on your comments, your position seems to be based on a belief that rape is overwhelmingly committed by a small minority of sociopaths. If that was the case, I would agree with your conclusions – cultural change will have little effect on the physiologically sociopathic.

    But the stats don’t bear that out. We know that sociopathy is relatively rare, and we know that sexual assault is far too common – and usually committed by someone known by the victim.

    That other demographic – the non-sociopath assaulter – is the one these educational and cultural-shift efforts are aimed at.

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  73. ISeeRed (244 comments) says:

    It’s men who should be told to drink responsibly – to avoid accusations of sexual assault! A man and woman can get EQUALLY drink and have sex, yet only one can accuse the other of rape the next day. Guess which one? Modern-day feminism is such hypocritical bullshit.

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  74. labrator (1,691 comments) says:

    that guy’s future behaviour will change for the better.

    Who cares about “that guy”. You haven’t stopped rape, you haven’t prevented people getting raped. My analogy was about risk and protection. You can turn it into “no more beersies for you” advertising campaign all you like but in a day when all people want is to be protected from everything and anything there are a number of logical steps people can take to reduce their exposure to risk. One of them is not getting in to compromising situations. You ignore this point and turn it in to something else.

    What would you think of their concerns about society then?

    Didn’t you self declare yourself as an anarchist on this forum? Who cares about what people think about society? This idea that a country as a whole forms a society is a weird perversion like Nationalism.

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  75. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    I am equally averse to rape no matter what group the victim is from

    That makes you an evolutionary failure my friend. It will not be your genes that carry on. It will not be your women who are protected from rape.

    Evolution is not about morality or fairness. They are things we make up to fill in time during peace.

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  76. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Oh look here is PG to tell us how morally superior he is because he is really really really really really really really against rape.

    FFS ! What a wanker.

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  77. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    Okay, imagine for a moment that the same people to whom you’re referring prefaced their condemnations with: “Yes, getting blind drunk is asking for trouble.” What would you think of their concerns about society then?

    But they aren’t.

    That’s the point.

    I understand that you are saying that their definition of rape is broader than the oblivious rapists. Even if we leave aside the charity you are doing them by finding a more palatable meaning in half the message, have you ever heard what the “dont tell me to drink responsibly” crowd considers rape?

    Would you consider a rape to have occurred if the girl was consensual at the time, but later regretted the decision saying she wouldnt have done it if she was sober?

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  78. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Ryan, nice scramble for the moral high ground. How is the air up there ?

    It’s not moral high ground, Kea. I am stating my experience, and noting that I cannot speak for yours. There is no measure by which one moral standard can be rated higher or lower than another.

    It is not about what you, or I, think. It is about observed human behaviour. My theory fits with what happens, yours clearly does not.

    You’re telling me that my aversion to rape has evolutionary causes. That makes it about what you or I think. If your explanation was accurate, I would feel differently about rape depending on which group the victim was from, would I not? I do not. So your explanation does not account for the fact of my experience.

    And you have not yet confirmed that your own experience is that you have differing aversions towards rape depending on which group the victim is from – in keeping with your explanation.

    evolved compassion

    Novel term. (I can pull stuff out of my arse too though) Evolution has resulted in altruism, but only if it promotes survival of the groups genes. You have failed to link the two things.

    It’s not a novel notion.

    Do you believe that compassion is a motivating feeling that humans have?

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  79. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    But the stats don’t bear that out.

    They do. That is exactly what the research says (see my post above).

    The vast majority of rapes and violent acts against women and children are committed by 3-4% of men (1 out of every 25 or 30). If you think about it, you probably already know who they are.

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  80. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    That makes you an evolutionary failure my friend.

    Eventually, every species is. So what? I don’t need or want to be an evolutionary success. Language and reason have given me the ability to reflexively consider my own behaviour.

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  81. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    But they aren’t.

    That’s the point.

    I understand that you are saying that their definition of rape is broader than the oblivious rapists. Even if we leave aside the charity you are doing them by finding a more palatable meaning in half the message, have you ever heard what the “dont tell me to drink responsibly” crowd considers rape?

    If I had to choose between living in a society with the “don’t tell me to drink responsibly” crowd and the “rape happens, get over it” crowd, I’m pretty sure what my choice would be.

    Would you consider a rape to have occurred if the girl was consensual at the time, but later regretted the decision saying she wouldnt have done it if she was sober?

    I would consider it an immensely sad situation, but no, I would not consider that rape.

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  82. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Who cares about “that guy”. You haven’t stopped rape, you haven’t prevented people getting raped. My analogy was about risk and protection. You can turn it into “no more beersies for you” advertising campaign all you like but in a day when all people want is to be protected from everything and anything there are a number of logical steps people can take to reduce their exposure to risk. One of them is not getting in to compromising situations. You ignore this point and turn it in to something else.

    The idea is that there are a lot of those guys, Labrator. If changing their view changes their behaviour, and changing their behaviour prevents them from committing sexual assault, then yes, changing their view has prevented people getting raped.

    Didn’t you self declare yourself as an anarchist on this forum? Who cares about what people think about society? This idea that a country as a whole forms a society is a weird perversion like Nationalism.

    Societies are different from the State, Labrator.

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  83. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Ryan, you are personalising general statements. It proves nothing.

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  84. gump (1,231 comments) says:

    @Kea

    “Evolultion is about gene survival not morality. However our aversion to rape is for that same reason. It means anothers genes could be promoted ahead of our own. Both rape and aversion to rape, have an evolutionary explanation.”

    ———————-

    Your argument is stupid. If rape can be explained as an evolutionary adaptation then please explain why:

    1. Rapists rape elderly women?

    2. Rapists rape pre-pubertal children?

    3. Rapists rape boys and other men?

    4. Rapists often kill their victims?

    5. Rapists engage in non-vaginal intercourse?

    You’ve fallen into the trap of thinking that rape can be explained as a simple phenomena. The truth is far more complicated.

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  85. SPC (4,675 comments) says:

    Kimble, the issue you raise is predicated on defining women as consenting at the time. Who determined that? The drunk men who saw the no as yes and were in no state to comprehend the feeble drunken state resistance as evidence that the no meant no?

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  86. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    Why did I get put in moderation? I didn’t swear at anyone or break any rules.

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  87. SPC (4,675 comments) says:

    Tom, maybe a fault, I was unable to edit my last post.

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  88. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Well, my comments are in moderation, so I’m off. Have a good evening, anyone who reads this.

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  89. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    SPC it is up to rape accusers to provide evidence. Not their victims. The legal starting point is the assumption of innocence.

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  90. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    I mean. You’re all a pack of bastards, but I refrain from saying so for Farrar’s sake. ;)

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  91. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    Kimble, the issue you raise is predicated on defining women as consenting at the time. Who determined that?

    The women themselves. You need to read the entire sentence “… but later regretted the decision saying she wouldnt have done it if she was sober?”

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  92. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Ironic moderating breaks out given the thread topic. Probably just a mistake. . .

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  93. SPC (4,675 comments) says:

    Kimble, were you claiming that the “don’t tell me to drink responsibly crowd” would call it rape when they later regretted having sex while drunk?

    I think you are misrepresenting them.

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  94. Prince (81 comments) says:

    Quite a debate raging here. This must be stopped.

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  95. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    The point was relating to Ryan’s point that rapists dont think they’re raping because they dont share the ‘dont tell us not to drink excessively’ crowd’s definition of rape.

    One of the definitions of alcohol-related rape I have seen is when a women consents to sex at the time, while drunk, but later regrets doing it as they would not have done it sober.

    Is that rape? Does that make the guy who engaged in the at-the-time consensual sex, a rapist?

    According to many in the ‘tell them not to rape’ crowd, it is, and it does.

    Ryan is merely assuming that they have a moderate position because that makes their bizarre statement more palatable.

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  96. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    1. Rapists rape elderly women?

    Sex is an evolutionary adaptation, and many people have sex with women who are no longer capable of having children or engage in homosexual sex.

    Yours is an argument with obvious counterexamples.

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  97. SPC (4,675 comments) says:

    Kimble, can you name a single person (in any crowd or group of thought) who claims that rape occurred when there was consent at the time?

    No you are wrong when saying that “One of the definitions of alcohol-related rape I have seen is when a women consents to sex at the time, while drunk, but later regrets doing it as they would not have done it sober”.

    The actual definition of alcohol-related rape is when a person is so drunk they were incapable of giving or denying consent. This is different to an also common rape practice – being so drunk that one believes her no’s mean yes and her weak attempt at pushing him away is not a sign of her drunkenness, but her consent.

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  98. gump (1,231 comments) says:

    @Tom Jackson

    I’m intrigued by your argument.

    You seem to be suggesting that because sex is an evolutionary adaptation, all forms of sexual intercourse must therefore be evolutionary adaptations?

    Correct me if I have misunderstood.

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  99. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    How many of you could PROVE it was consensual last time you had sex ? Did she specifically tell you it was okay or was she simply ” asking for it ” ?

    Think before answering boys.

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  100. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    You seem to be suggesting that because sex is an evolutionary adaptation, all forms of sexual intercourse must therefore be evolutionary adaptations?

    My point was that you cannot point to the fact that men rape infertile as evidence that rape cannot be an adaptation, since men have consensual sex with infertile women and sex is an adaptation.

    I’m not even sure I even have to say that rape per se is an adaptation. Sexual aggression seems to be, and it may just be a by product of that. My view is pretty much a general one: that it’s largely nature not nurture.

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  101. labrator (1,691 comments) says:

    Ryan, you still haven’t prevented rape or prevented people being raped. You’ve potentially prevented a person from getting raped.

    I’m not going to argue anything about how rapists can be treated or prevented from raping. The original argument was that girls should drink responsibly to prevent sexual assault. The premise is faulted, as you can’t guarantee prevention any more than you can predict the future, but you can minimise your exposure to risk and there seems to be an aversion to even discuss this as adults.

    Reminds me of the Tahir square rape where in the article I just linked there is the quote ‘I was tossed around like fresh meat among starving lions’.

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  102. SPC (4,675 comments) says:

    Kea, more common is the scenario when one partner has sex when they did not want to, but accepts it as the burden of being in a relationship. They were not asking for it … but given they could have given an explicit denial of consent, consent of a sort.

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  103. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    You do all realise that there are multiple sorts of rapes and reasons for it, don’t you?

    The most predominant sort of rape is to do with degradation and power.

    The sort of rape that has hit the headlines recently, that which occurs in pursuit of sexual gratification is not the most common form of rape.

    For example: within established relationships (marriage like) rape convictions where the male has pleaded guilty, most frequently followed incidences of male assaults female, therefore have nothing to do with sexual gratification and more to do with alcohol/drug consumption and anger (teach the biarch a lesson type stuff).

    Usually stranger rape occurs through other dysfunctions of the mind/behaviour, often where the offender has themselves been a victim of sexual assault as a child, and needs to exert power over another, and/or is dealing with adversity in the negative manner they also experienced.

    Whilst the evolutionary foundations of rape may be responsible for a small percentage, the more civilised the society, the less likely that is to occur.

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  104. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    A bloke collects a fat pay packet and goes into a bar. Soon he is drunk. Everyone becomes his friend; he’s buying drinks all round. Food too. In the early hours of the morning everyone leaves and he’s a thousand dollars poorer.

    Has he been robbed?

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  105. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    Whilst the evolutionary foundations of rape may be responsible for a small percentage,
    Most rape as now defined, that is the perpetrator is known and the complainant was not “dragged into the bushes at knife point”, is about sex, not power.

    the more civilised the society, the less likely that is to occur.
    Tautology.

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  106. SPC (4,675 comments) says:

    Judith, I think the two cases you mention are more common in the cases where there would be a rape conviction, because a crime of aggression is clearly involved, whether resulting from alienation within a relationship or from society. In such cases women are more likely to go to court.

    But given the number of women citing being raped by someone they know/knew you might need to reconsider whether rape is usually motivated by the intent to commit an act of aggression. The aggression is IMO more often in being unable (too drunk) or unwilling to acknowledge the lack of consent, rather than in any deliberate intent to commit an act of violence. In that sense there may need to be a publicity campaign in which women explain how they feel about these sexual violations, so men get it.

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  107. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Dennis (is it safe ?) Horne,

    another thoughtful comment at 8:07

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  108. gump (1,231 comments) says:

    @Dennis Horne

    “A bloke collects a fat pay packet and goes into a bar. Soon he is drunk. Everyone becomes his friend; he’s buying drinks all round. Food too. In the early hours of the morning everyone leaves and he’s a thousand dollars poorer.”

    ———–

    Drunk people are legally prohibited from being on a licensed premises (for this and other reasons).

    While interesting as a hypothetical question, your thought experiment requires the licensee to break the terms of their liquor license.

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  109. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    The most predominant sort of rape is to do with degradation and power.

    I’ve never seen any convincing proof of this claim.

    The Roast Busters certainly don’t seem to have cared about power. They just wanted to get their ends away.

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  110. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Tom , of course not. It is nonsense, the same as all the other accepted wisdom handed down by feminists.

    All this drivel is an insult to real rape victims.

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  111. gump (1,231 comments) says:

    @Tom Jackson

    “I’ve never seen any convincing proof of this claim.”

    ————————-

    According to the World Health Organisation. The factors specifically associated with rape and sexual violence include:

    1. Beliefs in family honour and sexual purity;

    2. Ideologies of male sexual entitlement;

    3. Weak legal sanctions for sexual violence.

    They also note that “the unequal position of women relative to men and the normative use of violence to resolve conflict are strongly associated with both intimate partner violence and non-partner sexual violence.”

    Given that three of the four quoted reasons deal with rapists asserting power over their victims, it seems clear that power is a key factor in rape and sexual violence.

    Source of WHO quotes – http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs239/en/

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  112. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    gump (1,021) Says: November 28th, 2013 at 9:51 pm
    @Dennis Horne: “A bloke collects a fat pay packet and goes into a bar. Soon he is drunk. Everyone becomes his friend; he’s buying drinks all round. Food too. In the early hours of the morning everyone leaves and he’s a thousand dollars poorer.”

    Drunk people are legally prohibited from being on a licensed premises (for this and other reasons). While interesting as a hypothetical question, your thought experiment requires the licensee to break the terms of their liquor license.

    Okay. The publican went to jail. Was the drunk robbed?

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  113. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    The point was relating to Ryan’s point that rapists dont think they’re raping because they dont share the ‘dont tell us not to drink excessively’ crowd’s definition of rape.

    Kimble, the definition of rape that I am using is “sex without consent”. Please give me the definition of rape that you prefer to that.

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  114. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    @gump. Is armed robbery about power or taking stuff?

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  115. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Kea,

    Do you believe that compassion is an motivating feeling that humans have?

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  116. gump (1,231 comments) says:

    @Dennis Horne

    “Okay. The publican went to jail. Was the drunk robbed?”

    ——————–

    If he was legally intoxicated, then yes – he was robbed.

    A drunk person is incapable of giving informed consent for any action.

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  117. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Ryan, yes for most of us.

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  118. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Well, I’m glad of that.

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  119. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    And happy 9000th comment. That’s a terrifying thought, isn’t it.

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  120. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull (6,053) Says: November 28th, 2013 at 10:38 pm: … the definition of rape that I am using is “sex without explicit consent”. Please give me the definition of rape that you prefer to that.

    Consent is often inferred from behaviour. You know, like the woman opens her legs.

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  121. gump (1,231 comments) says:

    @Dennis Horne

    “Is armed robbery about power or taking stuff?”

    ———————–

    That’s a false dichotomy.

    Armed robbery can be about either, or both.

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  122. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    @gump. Legally intoxicated? Stop clutching at straws. Would the police act if he complained he was robbed?

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  123. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    @gump. Wriggle wriggle little gump. In cases where there is no gratuitous violence, the weapons are found to be fake, the victims unharmed, is armed robbery primarily about power or taking stuff?

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  124. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    The issue of consent is the key to establishing the merit of a rape accusation. Consent can be implied through actions rather than specifically stated. In fact it is seldom specifically stated. To prove rape you must first prove that a reasonable person would not believe consent was given or implied by the actions of the rape accuser.

    This is why the line of questioning goes to the accusers manner, dress and actions. It is not to put the accuser on trail, it is to establish consent.

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  125. gump (1,231 comments) says:

    @Dennis Horne

    “Legally intoxicated? Stop clutching at straws. Would the police act if he complained he was robbed?”

    ———————–

    It’s unlikely that Crown Law would bring a prosecution, because the defense will likely base their defense on Volenti non fit injuria.

    But the absence of a prosecution does not mean that a crime has not occurred. It simply means that the prosecution is unlikely to succeed.

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  126. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Gump, sure just because there is no evidence, no charge, no trail and no analysis of the claim, does not mean a man is not a criminal . Are you happy to apply that logic to men accusing women of crimes ?

    For example the crime of making a false rape accusation ?

    For

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  127. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    @gump. Would you hazard a guess: the police investigate the complaint or stifle a giggle?

    This man gets “legally intoxicated” and kills his wife. He can’t legally be held responsible?

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  128. gump (1,231 comments) says:

    @Dennis Horne

    “Wriggle wriggle little gump. In cases where there is no gratuitous violence, the weapons are found to be fake, the victims unharmed, is armed robbery primarily about power or taking stuff?”

    ——————–

    Again – it can be either or both.

    Armed robbery can as easily be about intimidation, as it is about taking property. A easy example would be when the offenders stage an armed robbery to intimidate a business owner into leaving the area.

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  129. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Another cracker from Mr is it safe ? :)

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  130. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    Given that three of the four quoted reasons deal with rapists asserting power over their victims, it seems clear that power is a key factor in rape and sexual violence.

    Those particular reasons have either no or diminished relevance to New Zealand, yet we hear the same argument here.

    The Roast Busters didn’t have sex with drunken girls because of a sense of entitlement to have sex with them, but because they wanted to have sex. In fact, desiring to do something purely out of feelings of entitlement seems perverse. Men don’t sexually enslave women just to have power over them, but to have sex with them – the whole point of the exercise is to ensure steady availability of sex (hence laws making it legal to rape your wife).

    In the case of domestic rape, it’s usually disregarding failure to consent to something that normally takes place with consent that causes the rape. If the rapist in this sort of case really wanted to coerce his partner, he would attempt to get her to refuse him in order that he could then rape her, but what kind of lunatic does that?

    They also note that “the unequal position of women relative to men and the normative use of violence to resolve conflict are strongly associated with both intimate partner violence and non-partner sexual violence.”

    That’s an argumentative sleight of hand. Nobody disagrees that when one person is able to coerce another that there is a power differential between them, but that is different from saying that the primary intent of the activity is to assert power over another person, even if the means of accomplishing whatever goals the rapist has is just that.

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  131. gump (1,231 comments) says:

    @Dennis Horne

    “This man gets “legally intoxicated” and kills his wife. He can’t legally be held responsible?”

    ———————–

    It depends on which country the man is in.

    But yes – the law in many countries would recognise that the man had diminished responsibility for the act of killing his wife. A defence of diminished responsibility isn’t recognised by the New Zealand legal system, but in Australia it would be used to reduce the charge from murder to manslaughter.

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  132. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    Patriarchy was simple, easily enforceable, kept society stable for millennia, and led to at least half of the population being happy.

    Equality ends up being ridiculously complicated, hard to police, has resulted in rapid and unstable societal change, and makes neither gender happy.

    Clearly on utilitarian grounds patriarchy is the winner!

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  133. gump (1,231 comments) says:

    @Tom Jackson

    “The Roast Busters didn’t have sex with drunken girls because of a sense of entitlement to have sex with them, but because they wanted to have sex.”

    —————————–

    How do you know that? Were you there?

    Sexual aggression in young men is usually related to their wish to be held in high esteem or respect by their peers.

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  134. gump (1,231 comments) says:

    @Tom Jackson

    “Patriarchy was simple, easily enforceable, kept society stable for millennia, and led to at least half of the population being happy.

    Equality ends up being ridiculously complicated, hard to police, has resulted in rapid and unstable societal change, and makes neither gender happy.

    Clearly on utilitarian grounds patriarchy is the winner!”

    ——————————-

    If patriarchy “kept society stable for millennia” then why was the last millennia the most violent in human history? I could count on one hand the number of female leaders that have declared war while leading their countries.

    As for your claim that equality makes neither gender happy, I won’t even bother to argue against it. It is a nonsense.

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  135. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    Sexual aggression in young men is usually related to their wish to be held in high esteem or respect by their peers.

    I’m guessing you were never a teenage boy.

    A stock dream of all teenage boys is to be the modern equivalent of a mediaeval Sultan with a harem full of nubile women, like Hugh Hefner.

    Being able to brag about your Hefner like life to your friends would be a side benefit, but the primary attraction of such a life is the idea of constant, epic tail on tap. Any guy who says different is probably a latent homosexual.

    But yes, we do grow out of it.

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  136. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    If patriarchy “kept society stable for millennia” then why was the last millennia the most violent in human history? I could count on one hand the number of female leaders that have declared war while leading their countries.

    Oddly enough, it’s well known that you are far more likely to die as a member of a tribal society than you are to die as a citizen of a modern civilisation, even when all our wars are taken into account. Tribal societies are really violent.

    As for your claim that equality makes neither gender happy, I won’t even bother to argue against it. It is a nonsense.

    It’s a necessary truth. Patriarchy makes men better off than equality, and everyone knows that women are never happy with anything.

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  137. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    It’s the testosterone. Men who have a stake in society behave themselves, more or less, most of the time.

    I suspect men who jump out and drag women into the bushes are inadequate, but it’s still primarily about sex, not power. If it was just power they could simply beat them up.

    We really need to define categories of rape. A man insisting his wife oblige when she’s punishing him for something he’s done or not done is not the same as getting a 16 year old virgin drunk and shagging her.

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  138. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    It’s the testosterone. Men who have a stake in society behave themselves, more or less, most of the time.

    Well, it’s not just that. The ability to use language and to reflect on our own, and in many cases conflicting desires, stops us from being at the mercy of our hormones.

    Most of us accept that stable, monogamous relationships enable society to avoid all sorts of unpleasant societal consequences, although most of us would secretly like to roger loads of hot chicks – hence the eternal popularity of strip joints.

    We need a new reality TV show – something like:

    John spends his days white knighting on the internet, deriding men for their sexual crudity and always helping women to pillory his own gender. Let’s dump him into a spa pool full of hot hookers when he thinks no-one is looking…

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  139. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    Tom, I’ve enjoyed reading your comments. I am not happy about where we seem to be heading – how men and women treat each other. I preferred the days when a man took a wife and looked after her and any offspring. Goodnight and thanks.

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  140. thedavincimode (6,131 comments) says:

    Tom

    I think that show could really work. We (pard!) should be able to score some NZ On Air funding to pay the leases on our Ford Anglias and then we’ll take it global. We can do coffees, the stovepipes, the satchels & the corduroy jackets – the whole deal.

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  141. SPC (4,675 comments) says:

    Tom, it was inevitable that after you wrote that only the few men, those who are sociopaths, commit most rapes that you would then out yourself as an apologist for patriarchy.

    What seems to have escaped you was that patriarchy was simply a tool to co-opt lower ranked men (mostly illiterate) to accept a society where an elite (men apart from the token female sovereign in nations where there was no Salic Law) held all the power. Thus most men have benefited from an extension of the franchise to include all.

    From past comments I realise that you despise democracy and would prefer an elite, who know best, ruling over us. It is now clear that you would have this be an all male elite.

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  142. SPC (4,675 comments) says:

    Dennis, no it is not. But the wife has two options if her husband rapes her, court action or divorce. And if she clearly denies consent rather than just does not want to do it, then she has been raped.

    Whereas the woman who was too drunk to give consent, has to remember whether she got drunk with the intention of having no responsibility sex (does not affect her respect for her sober self) or whether she was just out to have some fun and got taken advantage of. Before she decides how to deal with the night before, as in whether a charge is appropriate action for her.

    That men may not know for sure is one reason to respect the notion of informed consent, as in being informed as to how she feels about sexual activity concluding her night out drinking. To be informed men need to get to know women before they get too drunk to say.

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  143. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    @SPC. Really? Court action or divorce. Just like that. When? After the first time? I’m sure far worse things can happen in some marriages, like getting beaten. Compared with losing a child it barely rates. No doubt there are some good women who marry bad men but I suspect bad behaviour is pretty evenly matched most of the time. Not necessarily physical…

    If a woman who is sexually active, promiscuous even, gets drunk and has sex with a man she decides she might have not were she sober, too bad, write it off to experience. Like getting pissed and losing your car keys.To some extent, the cry of RAPE has simply become a stick to beat men with. To some extent.

    Furthermore, some people’s attitude to sex has become nonsensical. Men need sex as they need food — wives know that — yet nincompoops like Hollande have decided that men in France, who, for one reason or another need to pay women hard cash for their favours, as opposed to flowers, dinner and presents, will be fined thousands and sent off for retraining. He, who had four children with his concubine while conducting affaires and now living with one of his mistresses – who also had other men in her life. Where is this model life we ought all live?

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  144. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    Kimble, can you name a single person (in any crowd or group of thought) who claims that rape occurred when there was consent at the time?

    http://www.slate.com/articles/life/dear_prudence/2012/01/hooking_up_drunk_should_my_friend_call_her_one_night_stand_a_rape_.html

    It was mentioned in the OP.

    But my experience has been with people making that same argument, live and in person. They were the ‘dont tell me to be responsible, tell him not to be a criminal’ type.

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