More on Roast Busters

November 7th, 2013 at 5:50 am by David Farrar

3 News last night reported:

Ever since 3 News broke the story of the west Auckland , have maintained they couldn’t prosecute the underage sex gang until they received a complaint from a victim.

Tonight it can be revealed the police did receive a complaint from one girl; two years ago.

The girl, now 15, says she felt it was her word against the Roast Busters and no charges were laid.

“This is my chance to say something. I couldn’t do anything two years ago. I want to do something now,” she told 3 News, in the presence of her mother and sister.

She wanted to be identified, but for legal reasons she is unable to be shown or named. She says she was sexually assaulted by the Roast Busters when she was 13.

“Joseph was on my left side. Tristram was on my right. And Beraiah was on top […] I was a virgin.”

She says she was “terrified”.

“I started crying and was asking Beraiah to hop off and I was scared and stuff […] I was more traumatised that I was 13 and losing my virginity.”

She says she was telling them to stop and get off her, but they continued. It was Joseph, she says, who eventually stopped it.

“He said ‘Beraiah get off her or you’ll be done for ’ […] He said ‘oh shit’, and hopped off.”

She believes she was one of the first victims. Afterwards, she blamed herself. She stopped eating and it took weeks to tell her family.

They immediately took her to the police, where she says she laid a complaint. Her brother handed over the boys’ names and addresses to the detective.

“I had a video interview where I had to act out what had happened with dolls […] It was traumatising.”

But, apparently, it wasn’t enough. She said she felt like it was her word against the Roast Busters.

“They said that I didn’t have enough evidence to show. Because I went out in clothes that was pretty much asking for it. […] I was asked a lot of questions about what I was wearing, and I went out in a skirt.

“If it was me, it could be any of my friends. I knew it would carry on ,” she says. 

“I can’t believe nothing was done then. From then I have had my friends sexually abused by them. How many girls have been raped? I have seen posts done by girls saying Roast Busters ruined their lives […] They’ve gotten away with so much.”

The girl plans to lay another complaint with police tomorrow.

There may be two sides to this story but one the face of it, this is appalling. Regardless of any issues around proving consent, this doesn’t apply as she was 13. I can’t understand how this did not lead to a prosecution.

It is good the complaint is being re-laid.  The challenge for the Police is to convince people that the culture that was evident in some (not all) areas of the Police with regards to sexual violence and women in the past, has been changed. It is not apparent it has. The sad thing with this is a number of female friends who have remarked that if they were raped as a young woman, they would not (or did not) go to the Police.
Of course it is not just the Police who may have a culture problem.  In this Stuff article, the “Roast Busters” are defended by some of their female friends:

The Roast Busters are being publicly defended by an unlikely source – their female friends.

The young women say the girls involved with the Roast Busters knew exactly what they were getting into. Many of the girls had group sex with the gang more than once, showing that they were willing participants, the friends claim.

Many, is not all. It doesn’t matter if 95% were willing participants if 5% were not.

Hargreaves and four of her friends appeared on TV3 last night, speaking out on behalf of the group. They said Hales and Parker were “not rapists” but “cool dudes”, and that drunken group sex was actually “normal in West Auckland”.

“Not for everybody though it’s just the young ones – 13 to 15-year-olds – that’s what they do”, one of the girls claimed.

That is very very sad. I’m sure not applying to all of West Auckland, but there is obviously a sub-culture where it is, and presumably huge peer pressure to conform.

UPDATE: Stuff now reports that the Police in fact had four complaints in the past about members of Roast Busters. This is a very serious situation for the Police as they had been saying that they could do nothing because there had been no complaints.

There are now multiple issues for the Police to deal with.

  1. Why did they say there had been no complaints, when there had been four? My assumption is a communications stuff up rather than malice, but it simply isn’t good enough. This information should have been made available to the hierarchy the moment the public spotlight turned on these West Auckland youths.
  2. Why were there no prosecutions in the past? Now we need to be careful here as the Police are independent and are the ones who have to weigh up whether a prosecution can succeed. And lack of consent can be very difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt. However if the girls complaining were under 16, then the issue of consent is not necessary for a prosecution. Now again, some judgement here is needed. If two teenagers both aged say 15 and a half have consensual sex, and say the parents of the girl complain, I don’t see much merit in turning the 15 and a half year old boy into a criminal. But if the girls are themselves the complainants and they are aged under 16, then it seems a case for prosecution. Other factors can be the age difference. Two 15 year olds is different to say a 19 year old and a 14 year old.
  3. If there were four complaints, why did the Police not take some other action, short of prosecution. Were any of the young men interviewed and cautioned? That in itself would be a good way to scare them into not thinking it is okay to get young under age girls drunk so you can have sex with them.
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192 Responses to “More on Roast Busters”

  1. skyblue (197 comments) says:

    And John Tamehere, a westy seemed to condone this behaviour on Radio Live 2 days ago. ARSEHOLE. Bring full force of the law onto them. 13 is rape dudes.
    Smells of bias also with a cops son involved.

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  2. tas (590 comments) says:

    That’s disgusting. I hope they get convicted. The problem is that there needs to be solid proof that the ‘roast busters’ were committing rape. That won’t happen until a complainant comes forward who has some evidence beyond her word against theirs. It’s unfortunate, but that’s one of the reasons rape is such a heinous crime — it’s so hard to prosecute.

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  3. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    Despite previously denying any complaints had been made police have now confirmed this girl’s claim, which means it looks like police have been bullshitting.

    • Sunday: Detective Inspector Bruce Scott said there was nothing police could do until a girl was “brave enough” to make a formal complaint.

    • Monday: Mr Scott said no girl had made a formal complaint.

    • Tuesday: Superintendent Bill Searle said none of the girls from the original inquiry wanted to make a formal complaint.

    • Yesterday: A teenage girl says she made a formal complaint to the police two years ago.

    And last night police confirmed that a complaint had been made..

    Last night, police confirmed one formal complaint had been made since the group came to their attention in 2011. It was from a 13-year-old girl, in December that year.

    It was “thoroughly investigated”, said Waitemata district commander Superintendent Bill Searle. But police decided there was not enough evidence to bring a prosecution.

    Mr Searle could not discuss the specifics of the girl’s complaint.

    “The victim’s complaint is still part of the continuing investigation and should new supporting evidence come to light as part of the ongoing inquiry, the decision in this case not to prosecute will be reviewed.”

    He told the Herald that the situation was “certainly inappropriate and very concerning”.

    The way the police have dealt with the situation seems inappropriate and very concerning.

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  4. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    @tas:

    The problem is that there needs to be solid proof that the ‘roast busters’ were committing rape. That won’t happen until a complainant comes forward who has some evidence beyond her word against theirs.

    There is another option – if the boys involved fronted up and confirmed to police details they have already made public. If they were open and honest (and if they have done what girls have claimed and what they have claimed) they would save victims from increasing their exposure and trauma.

    This would depend on whether the boys (and their families) are only concerned about trying to avoid any responsibility and legal repercussions or not.

    If the boys admitted to police what they have claimed they have done they would be in the shit but they could do quite a bit to repair some of the damage, and they could also potentially do quite a bit to address a wider problem of an unsavoury male culture.

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  5. Manolo (13,327 comments) says:

    P.G. is enjoying this topic as a pig bathing in mud.
    As you know, according to his twisted logic, all men in NZ are rapists in waiting, potential defilers of women.

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  6. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    Girls of 13 go to parties in skimpy clothes and get drunk. Boys try it on. Is this a new phenomenon sprung on mankind or did parents once supervise their children?

    I wouldn’t be too quick to judge the police on this one. Largely because I don’t know the facts.

    Children need to learn the law does not save you from yourself, it punishes others involved.

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  7. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    Pete George (19,441) Says: November 7th, 2013 at 6:27 am. If the boys admitted to police what they have claimed they have done they would be in the shit but they could do quite a bit to repair some of the damage, and they could also potentially do quite a bit to address a wider problem of an unsavoury male culture.

    For goodness sake, Pete, do you really think the kind of people who live like this … Oh, I give up. Pete, you’re an old woman. A nice one, no doubt.

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  8. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    That’s way off the mark Manolo. This is nasty stuff, but getting nasty with me for confronting it is despicable. A retraction and apology please.

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  9. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    I can’t understand how this did not lead to a prosecution.

    That’s because you have a lack of imagination.

    Maybe police thought she was lying about being raped. It does happen. The police are typically quick to prosecute, sometimes on the flimsiest of evidence. Their decision not to prosecute suggests they have doubts about her story.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/6608142/Hamilton-girl-made-false-rape-complaint-police
    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/226677/arrest-over-false-rape-complaint
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3655853/Christchurch-teen-admits-false-rape-complaint

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  10. slightlyrighty (2,496 comments) says:

    What I don’t understand is that the police have said now that there was a formal complaint 2 years ago but did not prosecute because there was not enough evidence. Now colour me simplistic, but is it not the job of the police to investigate complaints and gather evidence? It is not the job of the complainant to bring the evidence and obtain a conviction.

    I would think that there is a prima facie case of prosecuting the police officers involved for being accessories after the fact, especially given that one of the alleged offenders was the son of a police officer.

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  11. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    they would save victims from increasing their exposure and trauma.

    Like the entire media and just about everyone else, you assume the girls are victims. Wouldn’t it be useful to have all the facts in front of us before making that rather big assumption?

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  12. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    @Dennis Horne

    Girls of 13 go to parties in skimpy clothes and get drunk. Boys try it on. Is this a new phenomenon sprung on mankind or did parents once supervise their children?

    I wouldn’t be too quick to judge the police on this one. Largely because I don’t know the facts.

    Children need to learn the law does not save you from yourself, it punishes others involved.

    You’ve just made up facts and judged Dennis. And effectively convicted girls for the way you claim they dress. That’s crap.

    Another radio host in gun

    Another RadioLive host has come under fire, this time for an interview with a caller who said she was raped as a 14-year-old.

    Night-time host Andrew Fagan copped flak after the woman told how she had met a boy she fancied on the way home from school.

    At his house, she drank alcohol for the first time and woke up realising she had lost her virginity.

    Fagan asked her if it was consensual. “Did you not hear what I just said?” she replied. He replied: “Yes, but you said you fancied him.”

    Another making excuses for what could be a rape. There’s an ingrained and widespread culture of making excuses for appalling behaviour and blaming the victims.

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  13. Scott1 (444 comments) says:

    I’m as happy as anyone else to hang them high as they say – but it is pretty likely if they had raised the charges against these guys the evidence of this girl alone would have failed to convict them. There is a question whether the police made the appropriate efforts to find other witnesses but this one girl vs the guys – a rational court would struggle to remove reasonable doubt on just that.

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  14. wreck1080 (3,725 comments) says:

    I reckon there is plenty of evidence.

    There is video, there is facebook, there is the complainant.

    I think that is enough to convince a jury.

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  15. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Now colour me simplistic, but is it not the job of the police to investigate complaints and gather evidence?

    Did you not read the article? Police say the DID investigate and found a lack of evidence. Certainly, though, police can prosecute on the flimsiest of evidence, which suggests there may be credibility and or reliability issues with this particular witness.

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  16. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    I think that is enough to convince a jury.

    With that kind of unassailable logic, you should apply for a job at Crown Law. :)

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  17. Longknives (4,411 comments) says:

    “Did you not read the article? Police say the DID investigate and found a lack of evidence. Certainly, though, police can prosecute on the flimsiest of evidence, which suggests there may be credibility and or reliability issues with this particular witness.”

    Ross that comment is far.far too sensible for what has become a debate based on hysteria and assumption rather than cold,hard facts.
    slightlyrightly- the decision not to prosecute would likely have been made by Crown Law. Perhaps they should be charged with rape also?
    Pete- Go have a cup of tea and lie down. You are getting far too excited….

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  18. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    Like the entire media and just about everyone else, you assume the girls are victims. Wouldn’t it be useful to have all the facts in front of us before making that rather big assumption?

    The current facts are:
    - boys have publicly bragged about what they did.
    - a number of girls have claimed that the boys claims are correct and that they have been drugged and sexually assaulted.
    - police have said that the boys are correct but they have not had sufficient evidence to prosecute (but they had also said their had been no complainants).

    Yes, it would be useful to have all the facts, but we never get all the facts, but what assumption would you make from that ross69?

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  19. wreck1080 (3,725 comments) says:

    I am coming from the position that the police may be incompetent or even possibly even protecting roast busters.

    One of their cops kids is a member of roast busters.

    And, police lied about never receiving a complaint. Why would they do that?

    Additionally, it comes out today , there have been 4 other complainants too.

    So, we have 5 girls , willing to say these roastbusters are rapist yet cops can’t do anything? Police are lying through their teeth now.

    Give me a break, I reckon a jury would convict.

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  20. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Yes, it would be useful to have all the facts, but we never get all the facts, but what assumption would you make from that ross69?

    I would conclude that you’re easily led.

    Teina Pora confessed to murder and 24 of his peers agreed that he is a murderer…what would you make of that, Pete?

    I suspect you didn’t bother to look at the 3 cases of teens making false rape complaints which I linked to…

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  21. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    The girl, now 15, says she felt it was her word against the Roast Busters and no charges were laid.

    Who gives a shit what she “felt” ! The assumption is innocent until proven guilty. There was no evidence. Why should her word be accepted over everybody else and the evidence ?

    Many, is not all. It doesn’t matter if 95% were willing participants if 5% were not.

    So with 95% of the “victims” [chuckle] saying its bullshit and no evidence or charges after four police investigations, you are still convinced it is all gospel truth ? Based on what, the anonymous rants of drunken party girls ?

    Every body needs to calm down and get a fucking grip on this topic.

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  22. Nostalgia-NZ (4,898 comments) says:

    ‘Certainly, though, police can prosecute on the flimsiest of evidence,’

    Another pearler from the space cadet.

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  23. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    ross69 at 7.09 am: “Wouldn’t it be useful to have all the facts in front of us before making that rather big assumption?”

    ross69 at 7.14 am: “Certainly, though, police can prosecute on the flimsiest of evidence, which suggests there may be credibility and or reliability issues with this particular witness.”

    A rather big assumption based on no facts.

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  24. tvb (4,196 comments) says:

    There is interference happening in the investigation. They have recently brought in another Officer to lead the inquiry because of the connection of one officer to the group. That in itself should be the subject of further investigation but somehow I do not think so.

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  25. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Give me a break, I reckon a jury would convict.

    Well, I presume you’re not a lawyer. A lot of people no doubt thought Clint Rickards would be convicted. They were wrong. Given that he was wearing a full length plaster cast on his leg at the time of the alleged rape, perhaps it isn’t surprising he was acquitted.

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  26. slightlyrighty (2,496 comments) says:

    Ross.

    Did the police conduct interviews with the young men? Have you read the article? One of the boys has admitted to the events on facebook. If the cops involved (and I refer to the cops involved and not the police in general) had at least investigated properly, and put the fear of god in these reprobates, perhaps they would not have continued to offend in such a manner, and do it so publicly.

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  27. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “A rather big assumption based on no facts.”

    A bit like this whole beat up. It reminds me of the time some police groupies developed some morals in their later years and went on to commit perjury to back up their false complaints.

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  28. vibenna (305 comments) says:

    Police have revealed they received four complaints between 2011 and 2012 relating to sexual assaults at the hands of the group calling themselves Roast Busters. However, Chief Superintendent C. Noevil said this still did not reach the evidentary standard required to prosecute “It is wrong to treat the number of complaints as a test of the strength of the evidence. Instead, we have to follow established police procedures of prosecuting only when we care enough to make the effort. This case clearly did not meet that standard.”

    When asked about the police changing their story three times in two days, Mr. Noevil replied. “Prove it. Hahahahaha.”

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  29. wreck1080 (3,725 comments) says:

    And, it seems even the police commissioner is concerned with the discrepancies….

    “Police Commissioner Peter Marshall has been summoned to the Beehive this morning over revelations that rape complaints had been laid despite police earlier saying there had been none.”

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  30. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    A rather big assumption based on no facts.

    Actually based entirely on facts, Pete. I suggest you confine yourself to Peter Dunne which at least is something you are familiar with.

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  31. slightlyrighty (2,496 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9371620/Four-complaints-laid-over-Roast-Busters-group

    OK Ross 69,

    Care to comment now? 3 complaints in 2011, one in 2012. Makes you wonder how hard they looked for evidence.

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  32. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    NZ Herald
    August 8 2005

    False rape complaints annoy police
    by Nicola Boyes

    Hamilton police will decide this week whether to charge two women who made separate false rape complaints at the weekend.

    Detective Sergeant Nigel Keall said police spent time and resources investigating the women’s complaints.

    “It’s just a waste of resources that could have been used elsewhere.”

    Both complaints were lodged on Friday.

    One was made by an 18-year-old and the other by a 19-year-old.

    Senior investigators estimate that between 60 and 80 per cent of rape complaints made by women are false.

    Mr Keall said false complaints tainted the community’s perception of sexual offending and the genuine victims who needed support.

    He said there was also a difference between people making complaints of stranger rapes and making allegations against a specific person, which could sometimes be malicious.

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  33. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    Four girls made Roast Busters complaints

    Police have revealed they received four complaints between 2011 and 2012 relating to sexual assaults at the hands of the group calling themselved Roast Busters.

    Since 2011, police have been monitoring the Auckland group of 17- and 18-year-old men who have boasted online about sex with intoxicated girls, some of them underage.

    Until Wednesday night, police said they had received no formal complaints about the group and had appealed for victims to come forward.

    But a 15-year-old girl told television’s 3 News on Wednesday that she complained to police two years ago of a sexual assault by members of the group when she was 13.

    Police have acknowledged to Radio New Zealand’s Morning Report programme they received three other complaints but are adamant they did not have enough evidence to prosecute.

    Waitemata District Commander Superintendent Bill Searle told the programme on Thursday three girls came forward in 2011 and one in 2012 but this does not mean there was enough evidence to prosecute.

    He said police may find the actions of the Roast Busters group immoral and repugnant but must work within the constraints of the law.

    The changing stories from the police are very disturbing.

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  34. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    @Pete George. I said: Girls of 13 go to parties in skimpy clothes and get drunk. Boys try it on. Is this a new phenomenon sprung on mankind or did parents once supervise their children?
    You say I’ve just made up the facts. Are you saying this is not what is happening? That parents are supervising their children?

    You say I’ve judged and effectively convicted girls for the way I claim they dress. That’s crap.
    I said: Children need to learn the law does not save you from yourself, it punishes others involved. Is that not true?

    We can make all the laws we want. We can have all the police we want. We can have all the judges we want. But if any woman behaves in certain ways she is more likely to be raped. I do not say that makes it right.

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  35. RRM (9,427 comments) says:

    It’s not that long ago that NZ Police were COMMITTING pack rapes.

    Now all of s sudden they are expected to PROSECUTE??!?

    You can’t expect people to change overnight DPF. Baby steps…

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  36. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Here’s a pic of Rickards with his full length plaster cast. His alleged victim never remembered him wearing it! If police are prepared to prosecute someone who was incapacitated at the time of the alleged offending, then that suggests the evidentiary threshhold for prosecution is extremely low.

    http://www.peterellis.org.nz/police/RickardsShiptonSchollum2007/index.htm

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  37. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    How about DPF publishes the following stats:

    1. The number of false rape complaints made.

    2. The number of men put through the trauma and expense of a trial when there is not enough evidence to secure a conviction.

    3. The number of convictions gained for the laying of false rape and sexual assault claims.

    If you want a real scandal look there !

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  38. wreck1080 (3,725 comments) says:

    @ross69:: do you think there is a possibility that these boys were not going around raping underage girls?

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  39. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Kea,

    It is unclear how many false allegations of rape/sexual abuse are made in New Zealand. However, research by Jan Jordan suggests that the numbers could be significant. Jordan examined 164 police files from 1997, files which contained allegations of rape and sexual assault. Police categorised the allegations as follows:

    1. Genuine Cases – The police believed the complainant was telling the truth that she had been raped or sexually assaulted.

    2. Possibly Genuine Cases – The police were unsure if the complainant had been raped or sexually assaulted. There was typically insufficient evidence to conclude that rape or sexual assault had occurred.

    3. False Cases Determined By Police – The police believed the complaints were false.

    4. False Cases Declared By Complainants – The complainant admitted their complaint was false.

    Jordan reports that the numbers for each group were 34 (21%), 62 (38%), 55 (33%), 13 (8%) respectively. In other words, only 21% of files that were examined by Jordan were determined by police to be genuine rape complaints, though there were possibly other genuine complaints which could not be substantiated. Even if all cases that were possibly genuine were accepted as genuine, it is apparent that 41% of complaints were considered to be false.

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  40. Nostalgia-NZ (4,898 comments) says:

    Now the fantasist Kea slips into conspiracy mode, presents other allegations in order to ‘prove’ that what is now a number of young girls appear to have claimed is ‘made up’ by them.

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  41. Nostalgia-NZ (4,898 comments) says:

    “It is wrong to treat the number of complaints as a test of the strength of the evidence.’

    Wrong.

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  42. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    do you think there is a possibility that these boys were not going around raping underage girls?

    Without all the facts, of course it is possible.

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  43. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    Kea and ross69 – there are no claims nor evidence of false complaints in the Roast Busters cases. The police will be well aware of the possibilities of false complaints but they have expressed no concerns about it on this. You are diverting and obsessing over something that doesn’t appear to be a factor here.

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  44. nickle (28 comments) says:

    So, in West Auckland it is so-called ‘normal’ for young teens to be having group sex. I also heard a young person on talkback the other day saying it was the same in ‘The Bay’ (Whether BOP or Hawkes Bay I dunno).

    I must be some kind of old fashioned wowser, because I cannot see how it is suitable for any 13-15 year old to be participating in group sex. Let alone some sections of our society saying it is okay for older boys to coerce younger girls into their unwilling participation.

    The way sex is used to sell a lifestyle to our young is completely abhorrent – from soft porn music videos, scantily clad celebrities, one-click to all the hardcore porn you can get, and don’t forget extremely liberal sex ed in schools. Theres also the countless politicians and celebrities that are continually caught with their pants down – these all send messages of acceptance to our very impressionable young.

    The internet generation are growing up apparently trying to outdo each other sexually. So as humans, and being the dominant species on this planet, with a world of technology and advancement at our fingertips, we are still completely and thoroughly ruled by one of our most basic animalistic instincts – the need to get our rocks off, and bugger the consequences.

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  45. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    The police will be well aware of the possibilities of false complaints but they have expressed no concerns about it on this.

    Yet police haven’t prosecuted…you clearly haven’t considered why that is so.

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  46. RRM (9,427 comments) says:

    There’s a valid point about the difference between allegation and proof that I think some people are getting tied up in knots trying to express.

    I’m prepared to call these clowns “Roast Busters” until a conviction is obtained.

    If one is obtained, then (and only then) I will start calling them “Pedo Rapists”.

    Which would seem more accurate a name, IF the allegations are correct.

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  47. wreck1080 (3,725 comments) says:

    @kea : you trying to mislead by saying the roastbusters case facts are equivalent to a typical false rape complaint. ie, where we have one complainant about a single incident.

    in this case, we have multiple complainants accusing the same men over a period of time. The men have bragged about this on the internet too. The men are members of ‘roast busters’ group. Too many coincidences for me.

    The last case I recall a bit similar to this was where the rotorua cops were convicted of raping women.

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  48. Scott1 (444 comments) says:

    wreck1080,
    They might have enough evidence now, but I don’t think they had it then. that complaint was at the beginning of the offending according to her own statement.

    With the media attention now, the proof of if they can put a case together with the current evidence and witnesses will come out.
    But if you have 4 rape complaints against you is is starting to look bad though.. one might think that would be enough to take you to court – I guess we will see.

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  49. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Pete,

    It should concern you that the Police Commissioner has been summoned to the Beehive. I suspect political pressure will be brought to bear on police to prosecute. I recall Helen Clark being outraged at the alleged actions of Clint Rickards who at the time had not even been charged with a crime!

    We know that Rickards was incapacitated at the time of an alleged rape. I wish Helen Clark had kept her trap shut…

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  50. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    ross69 – I have considered why they haven’t prosecuted, and the police have openly said it’s due to a lack of evidence. They have not raised any doubts (publicly) about the possibility of false complaints, it’s only you and Kea who keep promoting that possibility here.

    “All I can do is apologise to the victim – it would’ve caused her extra stress” Police Superintendent Bill Searle

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  51. Judith (7,486 comments) says:

    This entire situation is extremely sad for all parties concerned.

    Young girls whose lives have taken a path that will effect them for their entire lives.

    Young men, egged on by their egos and each other, whose lives are basically ruined because the stigma of this, even if never charged, will be with them forever. If they are convicted, they will appear on a sex offender list.

    It is difficult to know whether these young men are sexually perverted or just stupid immature brats who through boredom and even perhaps the influence of social media (and yes we have to include a lack of decent parenting) have played a game with devastating effects.

    More than anything what this case has shown is that the general public have developed a mistrust of the police. Whether that is justified or not will be seen, but along with other similar situations (Russell Gibson’s recent comments for example), it is difficult to believe that the police have made the necessary changes that the Bazley report recomended (especially when we hear of a 13 year of victim that was made to feel responsible because she went out dressed in a skirt).
    She was 13 years of age – she cannot be and was not responsible. Those boys knew her age.

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  52. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Now the fantasist Kea slips into conspiracy mode”

    No Kea asked for statistics and facts.

    “there are no claims nor evidence of false complaints in the Roast Busters cases”

    There are multiple complaints that have not led to charges laid. There is increasing evidence this is beat up.

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  53. Lance (2,439 comments) says:

    @wreck1080
    Seriously… when is Kea not being a troll?

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  54. Judith (7,486 comments) says:

    @ Ross69

    Can I suggest you get hold of the Bazley Report and read it in it’s entirety. It does not make pretty reading, and what is extremely concerning is that nothing seems to have changed, except maybe the person police behaviour, however, the same ‘culture’ exists in the manner they handle victims of sexual crimes.

    I am fully aware that false complaints are made, but that does not excuse nor should ever allow real cases to be ignored. Nor should the manner in which a 13 year old is dressed, effect whether the police make a determined effort to investigate such complaints.

    The police stated on Monday there had been no official complaints – yesterday we hear there had in fact been at least one official complaints, and today we hear there have been four.

    Paint the picture any way you like, but you’d have to be a stark raving idiot not to ‘smell a rat’ in the police’s handling of this situation.

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  55. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Given the lynch mob whipped up by the feminists media and their enablers, I suggest these young men would have zero chance of a fair trial, assuming they found any evidence to back the claims… which they have not after four investigations !

    PG and his crew were the sort that used to form cheering lynch mobs in the town square while people were tortured to death.

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  56. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    Our police are looking for ways to go after a lot more than this group. Idiot boys didn’t realize the extent of just how adults would react. Our young are mature but still children. This actually must be disturbing for all the parents concerned. Victim as well as perpetrator. Families will now have to move, possibly leave the country.

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  57. Judith (7,486 comments) says:

    @ Kea (8,801) Says:
    November 7th, 2013 at 8:11 am

    Where is your evidence that this is a ‘beat up’?

    This girl made a complaint as a 13 year old (actually her parents complained as well).

    THIRTEEN ! It doesn’t matter if she wandered down the street naked with a sign saying ‘rape me’ on her – IT WAS ILLEGAL!

    Those boys knew her age – admitted on face book in an apology they gave to the victim, that it had occurred, whilst at the same time warning her not to go to the police.

    What sort of evidence would you like?

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  58. Keeping Stock (10,092 comments) says:

    Here’s an interesting angle. One of Schollum and Shipton’s co-offenders was one Warren Hales, a fireman, and friend of the policemen. One of the Roast Busters is one Beraiah Hales, whose father is a police officer. Is this merely an unfortunate coincidence?

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  59. Keeping Stock (10,092 comments) says:

    @ Judith – agreed. At the very least, there must have been a prima facie case against one or more of her alleged assailants for sex with an under-age girl, so why was there no prosecution?

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  60. flipper (3,537 comments) says:

    Judith says:

    “… it is difficult to believe that the police have made the necessary changes that the Bazley report recommended (especially when we hear of a 13 year of victim that was made to feel responsible because she went out dressed in a skirt). …”

    Agreed, there is no evidence of a Police culture change. But it will take more than a directive from Molesworth Street. It may well require a change to legislation, and the appointment of an outsider to direct change where appropriate.

    The cultural failings in Police (aka The Gang in Blue) range from this case, to the B o P gang rapes, to lies told to Judges, to Pora, to Lundy….and even to the tubby German.

    Whatever the rights or wrongs of this current affair, the very last thing the nation needs is another taste of Weatherstone.
    That would have the opposite of the intended effect.

    Incidentally, were it up to me, I would have Facebook/Twitter and all that self aggrandising rubbish in the dock along with the callous bastards who have disgraced their manhood.

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  61. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Judith, ok it is all a “conspiracy” by the police to let rapists off then ?

    You are making claims. Provide the evidence. And mystery callers on talk back radio and social media are not evidence of anything.

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  62. Judith (7,486 comments) says:

    @ Kea (8,802) Says:
    November 7th, 2013 at 8:18 am
    Given the lynch mob whipped up by the feminists media and their enablers,

    What a load of rubbish Kea.

    The vast majority of people I have spoken to about this are good honest heterosexual parents who are furious and worried for their own children – both males and females – because of the actions of this group, and what it has highlighted about social media.

    They are concerned because their own sons maybe influenced into acting in this manner, and because their daughters may become victims to similar behaviour. Like most parents they know how strong the influence of peer pressure can be.

    You have grabbed the most convenient excuse you can find to try and make this acceptable. No doubt there are some ‘feminists’ and survivors of sexual abuse that are outraged by this, but they are not leading any ‘attack’ – it is commonsense ordinary NZers like DPF that are outraged that this should not only have occurred, but been allowed to continue for as long as it is.

    Try to put aside your prejudices and see this for what it is.

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  63. MT_Tinman (2,985 comments) says:

    She was 13 years of age – she cannot be and was not responsible. Those boys knew her age.

    I agree – however, based on the reports (I trust the slime less than the pigs) the boys would have been minors themselves at the time of the first complaint and no rape occurred, just an assault.

    I wonder how much of this story is simply slime beat-up fed willingly by the sexist sisters.

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  64. Lance (2,439 comments) says:

    @Keeping Stock
    I am sure left handed owners of Xbox’s were involved as well. By thunder there should be an investigation into left handed Xbox owners.
    Maybe compulsory colonoscopy’s like we heard about yesterday from Manolo.

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  65. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    This behavior only highlights why too much exposure to something’s for our young can have drastic consequences. Sad, very sad. One thing that should discarded is the fact that it’s not just one suburb but all areas. Try Auckland’s North shore, we as adults take the risk with our kids when they want to go out by themselves and we hope the are safe but understand that if we don’t we run the risk of them running off and doing everything we are frightened of them trying ten times worse.

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  66. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Judith, yes they are parents and they are imagining it was there little girl. Understandable, I would feel the same.

    BUT

    That is a recipie for a lynch mob. And a lynch mob is what we see here on KB.

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  67. Grendel (950 comments) says:

    what worries me about all of this is the linking of hearsay to fact.

    these boys have bragged about group sex on the internet, so what? have they come out and said “we raped jane smith”? and if they did, has jane smith made a complaint? people brag all sorts of crap on the net, some of which might even be linked to reality.

    if they were just bragging about having sex in general with underage girls etc, sure the connection to complaints would mean the police should be looking at it very closely at all of this. but is it sufficient evidence to prosecute?

    the girl in the article states that she felt it was her word against theirs, which is in fact correct. with no evidence thats all it can be, unless you get good corroborating evidence that proves or supports the allegation.

    remember the girl did not complain until weeks later, which means there is no physical evidence left.

    if this case went to court based purely on bragging on the internet and a statement not corroborated in anyway, the defence would pull it apart, which might ruin the chance for actual justice if the allegations are 100% true.

    the bar for rape complaints has be high, due to the damage of a false rape complaint.

    if the police have not followed proper procedure on this they deserve to be taken to task by the right people. we dont know this is the case, just that the media are trying to imply this.

    if the boys did rape or even simply have sex with underage or too intoxicated girls, they need to be prosecuted in the courts, not by vigilantes, and on evidence, not public opinion.

    the reason i am suspending judgement is that we cannot know the true facts, and no matter how much media spin and speculation on blogs you read, none of you know the true facts either, so if you are making a stand either way (they did it vs they did not do it), then you dont have the full context and facts to back that up. now its not stopped people in NZ before, but its terrifying how easily we can get riled up over a agitative media story that is short on facts (or facts in the right context) but long on hyperbole and shock factor.

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  68. Judith (7,486 comments) says:

    @ Kea (8,803) Says:
    November 7th, 2013 at 8:24 am

    It is not a conspiracy by the police at all. That is not what I’m saying.

    What I am saying is read the Bazley Report.

    There exists within the police (NOT ALL OF THEM) a ‘culture’ that victims of sexual attacks often (but not always) ask for what they get. This culture is evident in the line of questioning they put to the 13 year old girl that made a formal complaint two years ago. What was she wearing, and why did she wear a skirt? She was a virgin – not sexually experienced, like most young people wears what her friends tell her ‘looks good’.

    How the hell does what a 13 year old girl wear, make rape acceptable? Answer that one Kea?

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  69. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    Without “rape”, Man would not be walking the Earth. Think about that.

    Thirteen year old girls should be protected and supervised by their parents. They should not walk down the street naked. Or with a tee-shirt “Rape Me”.

    They should not go to parties in skimpy clothes and get drunk. If they do, and some blokes try it on, they and their parents should not be surprised.

    Complain to the police all you like. If you’ve been raped you’ve been raped and no amount of “justice” alters the consequences of personal decisions and behaviour.

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  70. Judith (7,486 comments) says:

    @ grendal

    The girl that made the formal complaint two years ago received an apology via facebook, that also included a warning for her not to go to the police. Why would that have been done, if the event had not happened? Why would they feel obliged to apologise for something (at the time) that didn’t occur?

    How much evidence do you require?

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  71. nasska (10,622 comments) says:

    Whatever the outcome of this particular case the thing to watch for is the inevitable knee jerk reaction of politicians pressured by the electorate to “do something”. Watch for the required standard of proof to prosecute disappear through the floor. The police will likely react by prosecuting every case even if it is obvious that the complainant is lying through her teeth.

    Long term this fiasco will play into the hands of the rabid feminists….it’s what they’ve been praying for.

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  72. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Judith, oh so your evidence is a brain fart on FB and that is enough to destroy a young mans life in your view ?

    How about if they young fellas post a denial on FB ?

    Will you accept that too ?

    Think !

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  73. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    @Judith. There are two entirely separate issues here. The behaviour, which may have consequences for the female, and the rule of law, which may have consequences for the male.

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  74. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    nasska, this whole thing is beat up as part of an ongoing campaign to lower the standard of evidence for rape convictions.

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  75. alex Masterley (1,490 comments) says:

    Given the interest in this case the police will be revisiting their files and reviewing them closely.
    I would be prepared to lay money that the crown solicitors office will be asked to review the evidence to see if it is sufficient to maintain a prosecution.
    The professional standards section of the police will be looking at the conduct of the officers in charge of the case to ensure that no issues clouded or affected the decision not to prosecute in the first instance. Then you have the IIPCA complaint made by Ms Ardern.
    I also think that Grendel has a very good point. There is a lot of hot air at the moment with various agendas being pushed.
    Let the police get on with their investigations (as well as everyone else’s) so we can see in a cold rational light what happens.
    If it finds that some-one in the police made a wrong call for whatever reason then let the process deal with it rather than a lynch mob.
    Likewise if there is sufficient evidence to prosecute let the prosecution go ahead and await the outcome.

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  76. Manolo (13,327 comments) says:

    This is nasty stuff, but getting nasty with me for confronting it is despicable. A retraction and apology please.

    For stating the obvious?
    I’ve read enough of your “NZ culture of rape” and “too-quick to put men down” attitude.

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  77. nasska (10,622 comments) says:

    Judith

    What she wore shouldn’t matter. What is important is the age of the “boys” at the time of the offending….if it was two years ago they would have presumably been about sixteen & only three years older than the girl.

    The legislation regarding underage sex was passed to prevent kids being preyed on by old creeps…..not their peers. I would suggest that you’d have to go back many many years to find a successful prosecution when the age gap was so small.

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  78. Judith (7,486 comments) says:

    @ Dennis Horne (1,864) Says:
    November 7th, 2013 at 8:33 am

    So it’s the victims fault is it?
    A 13 year old?

    I suppose going by your reasoning then its the person that is murdered that is at fault for being where their life could be threatened?

    And what about little Delcelia Whitika, I suppose it was her fault she was abused – after all she should have not let her minder burn her with boiling water, and cigarettes, and she should have kept her pants on and not wandered round the house without them – then he wouldn’t have sexually abused her – afterall a three year old knows they should wear pants.

    Where are you going to draw the line at responsibility Dennis? Young men know that they are not allowed to force sex upon anyone – people have the right not to expect them to.

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  79. rouppe (914 comments) says:

    However if the girls complaining were under 16, then the issue of consent is not necessary for a prosecution.

    Section 134 Sexual conduct with young person under 16 of the Crimes Act says Every one who has sexual connection with a young person is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years. and Every one who attempts to have sexual connection with a young person is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years.

    Seems pretty clear cut. Only the attempt is required to secure a conviction.

    The Police have pursued a minor traffic conviction against me for nearly 2 months, but are too gutless – or useless – to go against these disgusting men.

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  80. Harriet (4,497 comments) says:

    13yld girls having sex isn’t a matter of medicine, like disease ailments or abortion – it’s one of moral restraint.

    Reasonable minded feminists say as much.

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  81. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    ross69: “It should concern you that the Police Commissioner has been summoned to the Beehive. ”

    It doesn’t concern me at all. It is probably appropriate.

    It should concern the Police Commissioner, who may have misled the Minister. It may concern some police staff in Auckland. There are serious questions that need to be answered – some have already been partly addressed by Superintendent Searle, belatedly, but there are major issues that need to be resolved.

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  82. Judith (7,486 comments) says:

    @ nasska (7,919) Says:
    November 7th, 2013 at 8:45 am

    Actually one only has to go back a couple of months to find such a prosecution. If the parent’s complain and there is evidence, (in the case I know of – pregnancy) then the police HAVE to prosecute.

    But this was not a matter of two young teenagers – these cases are in each example one (usually underage girl) with at least four over age males. Even if the males were only 16 years of age – they knew and their facebook page indicates they acknowledge that their behaviour was wrong – but they didn’t care because it made them heroes.

    These are guys that decided (as they admitted) that plying a single female with alcohol so she couldn’t resist, was a good way to have group sex (or get them all laid). Then they boasted about it.

    I’m sorry, but bravado etc is not an excuse. Had this happened once – it could be excused (just) BUT this was serious and prolonged offending – which makes it a lot more serious because it developed a pattern of prolonged disfunctional and socially unacceptable behaviour that remained unchecked by the normal social standards, and increased maturity.

    And lets not forget, there was at least one other copycat group associated with Mt Albert Grammer -

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  83. Bovver (143 comments) says:

    When Waitemata District Commander Bill Searle tells the media he was told by his officers there were no complaints but then has to admit there were actually four girls that had gone to the police that he has only just found out about brings into doubt the Police culture in West Auckland, pretty damning stuff, I see the Commissioner is in a please explain meeting with Tolley atm.

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  84. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    These little shits should not be sacrificed to make us all feel better, and more moral, about our society.

    This is a symptom of our booze soaked and promiscuous society. This is an example, not “the” problem.

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  85. alex Masterley (1,490 comments) says:

    It is all about evidence.
    If there is evidence that will enable a prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt that an offence occurred then a prosection should follow.
    if there is insufficient evidence to support a prosecution no matter how nasty an offense is it makes no sense to prosecute just for the sake of doing so.

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  86. SGA (800 comments) says:

    Kea at 9:02 am

    These little shits should not be sacrificed to make us all feel better, and more moral, about our society.
    This is a symptom of our booze soaked and promiscuous society. This is an example, not “the” problem.

    That a 13-year-old girl is drunk provides an opportunity to have sex with her, not an excuse.

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  87. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    @Judith. Raising daughters, do you say to them, do what you like and if you’re raped complain to the police, or do you say, look after yourself?

    Judith, the reality is an individual does not have (much) control over others. Furthermore, thanks to the liberal undisciplined society we live in, nobody does.

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  88. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    SGA, yes but how does that detract from my point ?

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  89. Nostalgia-NZ (4,898 comments) says:

    ‘nasska, this whole thing is beat up as part of an ongoing campaign to lower the standard of evidence for rape convictions.’

    More crap. The police said there were no complaints, now they say they didn’t act on the complaints because of their belief as to the standard of evidence. Meanwhile a complainant, has revealed a claim of how her interview went, how she was made to feel and what comments were made to her. A senior police spokesman, now admitting that in fact there is more than 1, complaint, read, none, 1, more than 1, says that the complaints by nature had to be looked at individually fair enough, but additionally a ‘pattern’ should be looked at. One complaint may strengthen another, one accused might incriminate another, because of an accusation against them. Overall, somebody might scratch their heads and say well, there is a pattern here – other than the one we’ve used individually to dismiss the complaints.

    I don’t know what happened, but a point is reached where it is in the public interest for matters to be put before the Courts. Incidentally, most times if charges are laid, as happened with Rewa other complainants come forward. It seems ridiculous that the ‘roastbusters’ would brag about their exploits on the internet, but it appears that’s what they’ve done. Now it needs to be considered that they might have sensed a signal that what they were doing was either okay, or something they were ‘allowed’ to get away with.

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  90. Harriet (4,497 comments) says:

    “….These little shits should not be sacrificed to make us all feel better, and more moral, about our society…..This is a symptom of our booze soaked and promiscuous society. This is an example, not “the” problem….”

    That’s true Kia – and I might add:

    Most people would rather take their children back to church on Sundays – rather than reading one book about parenting sons – and 20 about parenting their daughters.

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  91. nasska (10,622 comments) says:

    Judith

    There are a lot of facets to the goings on of the “Roast Busters” but should a prosecution be taken only the relative facts pertaining to that particular case can be used as evidence. That the participants are/were predatory arseholes I would not deny but I don’t think that case law should be reinvented just for this incident.

    ….” If the parent’s complain and there is evidence……….. then the police HAVE to prosecute. “…..

    If the police have had similar recent cases thrown out of court they will be in no hurry to add another failure to the list.

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  92. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    Judith (4,280) Says: November 7th, 2013 at 8:47 am. Young men know that they are not allowed to force sex upon anyone – people have the right not to expect them to.

    Judith, “rights” are merely “wants” we give ourselves. They are not laws of the Universe. No matter what planet you live on…

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  93. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Harriet, I do concede that you god botherers do have a few clues about family values and such. I think we can all agree this is appalling behaviour and damaging.

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  94. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “Judith, “rights” are merely “wants” we give ourselves. They are not laws of the Universe. ”

    Brilliantly put !

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  95. frankflintstone (70 comments) says:

    its not just the word of the four complainants against theirs..according to the tv3 program, even their friends (girls) said it was going on

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  96. Longknives (4,411 comments) says:

    The thing that really annoys me about all this is that it is giving a platform for nutjob Rape Crisis/Man-hater types to brainwash everyone with “Rape Culture blah blah” “Sick Police culture blah blah”
    Some woman from Rape Crisis was in the news yesterday ranting that group sex CANNOT be consentual-and any group sex is therefore rape..
    For fuck’s sake!

    How about everyone calm the fuck down, have a cup of tea and wait until the investigation is complete and charges are/are not laid before hanging these guys from the nearest tree?
    * Worth remembering also folks that it is very,very naive to believe everything you read in the media…

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  97. nasska (10,622 comments) says:

    frankflintstone

    ….”even their friends (girls) said it was going on”…..

    Not exactly evidence that can be put to a court now or two years ago.

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  98. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    It seems ridiculous that the ‘roastbusters’ would brag about their exploits on the internet, but it appears that’s what they’ve done.

    It seems ridiculous that someone would falsely confess to a murder they didn’t commit, but that is what Teina Pora seems to have done. The world is a strange place.

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  99. Longknives (4,411 comments) says:

    ross69- It’s not very ‘fashionable’ to mention that Teina Pora actually confessed to the murder, or that he was found guilty by a jury of his peers not once but twice.
    Probably not fashionable to mention his recent breach of his ‘weekend leave’ conditions either…
    He is the current ’cause celebre’ – don’t you know??

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  100. Chuck Bird (4,667 comments) says:

    @alex Masterley

    “It is all about evidence.
    If there is evidence that will enable a prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt that an offence occurred then a prosection should follow.
    if there is insufficient evidence to support a prosecution no matter how nasty an offense is it makes no sense to prosecute just for the sake of doing so.”

    You talking nonsense. Are you a lawyer?

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  101. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    “The rape culture we created”

    …I have been thinking about this over the past few days about why it is that young men (and older ones for that matter) seem to think they can treat women in such appalling ways.

    We have developed and nurtured this rape culture in New Zealand through acceptance, through excuse making and through enablement. Even our suppression laws enable the predatory and violent ratbags.

    What is outrageous too is the re-victimisation of victims of these ratbags. Followed closely behind by commentator that try to lump other commentators into the mix in order to score cheap political points. That is especially outrageous when some of those commentators have some pretty bad stuff in their background when it comes to the treatment of women themselves. They shouldn’t think that there won’t be an accounting for their smears.

    So about now regular readers will be spitting and frothing wondering what I am on about. Well let me explain why it is not a surprise to me that the scumbags raping teenagers appear to be able to get away with it.

    Let’s start with famous people who hide behind name suppression for their appalling attacks on women. I’m talking about politicians who beat their missus, senior office holders in political parties who kick in doors, All Blacks, League players, other prominent sports people, media and celebrities all treating women in the most appalling ways and essentially getting away with it.

    Their actions are excused, mitigated and even accepted. Look at the way that one of the victims of Len Brown’s own sexual antics has been treated by media, while the poor behaviour and sexual power plays of the mayor have yet to be held to account by anyone in the media except myself.

    These scumbag rapists in the “Roast Busters” didn’t learn their appalling treatment of women and girls from porn movies. They learned their behaviour from judges, politicians, sports people, police officers, and their parents. They have learned that there are no consequences for their actions. They have learned that psychopaths can get away with pretty much whatever they can do to people because they know that there will be no accounting for their actions.

    They have learned as famous people commit awful crimes that you can get away with it. They have learned that media will attack the victims if they just lie low and let the storm wash through. They have learned from us.

    We created, as a society, this problem, we shouldn’t be surprised with what has come out of the incubator given the ratshit ingredients that we put in.

    As is usual with issues like this, like Maori bashing their kids, or other societal ills, there will two weeks of wailing and gnashing of teeth then nothing…until the next time.

    What ever you do though, do not doubt that this behaviour has been around for a very long time…the only difference between now and then is there are people with cameras on their cellphones and easy and ready ways to disseminate their scumbag behaviour.

    Quite literally we are now reaping what this liberal and tolerant society has sown.

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2013/11/rape-culture-created

    Yes, abhorrent behaviour has been tolerated for too long.

    But i’s a mixture of a more liberal and tolerant society plus a very long history of hiding and passively accepting what has been perpetrated by a minority of people (mostly men).

    One way of addressing this is for once silent silent men to speak up and confront predatory and abusive behaviour and make it clear that most people think it is unacceptable and shouldn’t be tolerated.

    If enough men speak up then the manky men will get the message, but it will take time to get the message to sink in to people with entrenched attitudes and excuses.

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  102. Chuck Bird (4,667 comments) says:

    I spent 3 days as jury where the complaint made a false complaint. It took up less than 30 minutes to find the guy not guilty. It would have taken 5 minutes if it was not for one half wit. Half the jurors including women went to the pub and had a drink with the falsely accused and his lawyer.

    There was definitely insufficient evidence to prosecute.

    In the current case there is 10 times the evidence that there was in the case where I was a juror.

    Alex. There is legal theory and the real world. I live on planet earth.

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  103. F E Smith (3,301 comments) says:

    slightlyrightly- the decision not to prosecute would likely have been made by Crown Law

    Most unlikely, longknives.  If the police consulted any higher prosecuting agency for advice it would have been the Crown Solicitor’s office in Auckland, which is the private law firm of Meredith Connell, not the Government agency known as Crown Law.

    I suspect that is what you meant, but there is quite a difference there.

    But there was no requirement that they do so.

    It’s not very ‘fashionable’ to mention that Teina Pora actually confessed to the murder,

    False confessions make up a significant number (about a quarter, from memory) of wrongful convictions.  There are a number of very plausible reasons as to why that is.

    or that he was found guilty by a jury of his peers not once but twice.

    So was A A Thomas.  And his appeals were also twice turned down by the Court of Appeal. 

    Quite frankly, this episode has been handled appallingly by the Police.  Policet telling untruths (and they were untruths, because the spokesmen represent the organisation) to cover their actions is outrageous.  One organisation that we are entitled to expect honesty from is the Police, and in this they have disgraced themselves.  Their lack of action on the complaint is possibly not as bad as some are saying, because a complaint is not and should not be an automatic trigger for charges (they HAVE to exercise a discretion; saying they HAVE to lay charges is to show ignorance of the law), but lying about it is just awful.

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  104. kowtow (7,584 comments) says:

    nickle 759

    Great comment.

    I find it ironic that it is TV3 who is in moral high dudgeon on this (it’s their scoop after all) and yet they run C4 ,full of rap ,and the very culture of this particular problem,as well as any other anti civilised thrash they think they’ll have an audience for their “edgy” crap. Californication comes readily to mind.

    Hypocrites of the highest order ,as well as active underminers of traditional decent behaviour.

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  105. frankflintstone (70 comments) says:

    nasska

    “Not exactly evidence that can be put to a court now or two years ago.”

    so witnesses (who would be friends of the defendants) couldn’t give evidence in court now..I must be watching the wrong tv shows

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  106. nasska (10,622 comments) says:

    PG

    You say….

    ….”If enough men speak up then the manky men will get the message, but it will take time to get the message to sink in to people with entrenched attitudes and excuses.”….

    But from Whale…..

    …”They have learned that there are no consequences for their actions. They have learned that psychopaths can get away with pretty much whatever they can do to people because they know that there will be no accounting for their actions.”…..

    And here Whale hits the nail on the head. The average bloke on the street doesn’t rape or bash women….such behaviour is that displayed by a very small percentage of the male gender. The perpetrators are psychopaths & predators out to get their kicks in any way they can.

    To suggest that the average male condones or engages in such behaviour is ridiculous. To suggest that rapists & bashers take the slightest note of what their fellow men think or say is even more so.

    I don’t know the answer but I’m positive that spreading the blame isn’t it.

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  107. Longknives (4,411 comments) says:

    Cheers for correcting me FE Smith.
    Meredith Connell or not my point was that the media seem to portray the Police decision not to prosecute as made ‘off the cuff’ by some grizzled old redneck 80s throwback with a moustache and a sexist attitude.
    The reality is they put a hell of a lot of effort into any rape allegation, and take them bloody seriously (*I was once involved in one as a witness)
    Just trying to put a bit of balance into the discussion.

    And I repeat- Worth remembering also folks that it is very,very naive to believe everything you read in the media…

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  108. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    This had to happen – Minister refers case to IPCA

    Press Release: New Zealand Government
    Hon Anne Tolley
    Minister of Police

    Police Minister Anne Tolley says she has written to the Independent Police Conduct Authority, asking it to investigate the “Roast Busters” case in Auckland, particularly the questioning of a thirteen year-old girl in 2011.

    “Parents of young girls need to have confidence that complaints to Police about sexual assault are investigated thoroughly and appropriately,” says Mrs Tolley.

    “As Minister, I can’t delve into the details of a Police investigation – politicians cannot interfere in Police inquiries.

    “But the IPCA does have the power to carry out an independent assessment of the details surrounding these events, and I believe this is the right course of action to ensure the public has confidence in the Police on this matter.

    “This morning the Commissioner has again assured me that this inquiry has been thorough, and that there was a comprehensive investigation into the victim’s complaint.

    “However, I have made it clear to the Commissioner that I am disappointed that the full facts have not been available to me or to him.

    “I don’t expect to be told finer details of Police operations. Police must remain independent of politicians. But I do expect Police to be talking to each other.

    “I would again urge any young women who have been affected to come forward and talk to Police as a first step in gathering evidence which can be used to bring people to justice.”

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  109. Judith (7,486 comments) says:

    @ nasska (7,921) Says:
    November 7th, 2013 at 9:12 am

    I totally agree. The police have had many cases thrown out of the courts, but regardless of that, they are still by law meant to pursue such things.

    If there had only ever been one person that had bought this to their attention, I would be agreeing with everyone else. But we now know that four individuals had spoken to the police, all stating very similar things. Even if only one of those was a formal complaint (which the police have lied about getting) it makes not difference – they had the information.

    What they had stated, was also confirmed by the accused perpetrators on their own facebook page, and now stupidly, female friends of those males, supposedly in an effort to support them, have provided further information that the group actually did conduct themselves in the manner they are being accused of. I believe also members of the group have given information that has led to the discovery of solid evidence.

    It is the totality of the information that makes it destructive.
    I do not believe the fact a police officers son was involved had anything to do with it.
    I do not believe the police have deliberately tried to avoid solving this case, but have other reasons for not doing so before now.

    I do think, just as is demonstrated here, that many people prefer to excuse the behaviour as simple boasting and teenage immaturity, blaming a ‘sick society’, and normalising the behaviour as a ‘she asked for it’ type situation – I think all of these beliefs are also held by some in the police force (which would make sense because they are humans too). Because of that, they have not put as much energy into investigating the situation that they should have.

    Sadly because these attitudes exist, it makes such crimes harder to solve, because victims prefer to avoid the police and grueling investigation process (and it is a very grueling process for the victim).

    I do not believe for one minute that this groups behaviour is indicative of the population of NZ teenagers. I grew up in West Auckland and even though my parents attempted to protect me from the some of the social issues there by taking us to the batch for most weekends, I was still involved.

    It was rough, and it was hard, and yes sex, booze and ‘rocknroll’ was the way of life (if you can call CCR & Pink Floyd rock and roll). Sneaking out at night, coming home at the same time as the milkman made his deliveries was normal. But underage girls were known as ‘jail bait’, and even though that didn’t stop some who had formed relationships, there was never situations where one female was made to have sex with four or more males. There was always someone that knew your brother watching over you. The sound of a V8 still makes me go weak at the knees, and I have four pairs of black jeans – once a Westie always a westie, you can take a westie out of the west, but you can’t the west out of the westie .. etc

    From what I see, things haven’t changed that much. This group is not indicative of every teenager out there, nor are they indicative of most of them. The vast majority know that forcing someone to have sex with you, especially via the use of intoxicating substances, is wrong. People that try that are quickly identified and dealt with by their peers. But like most communities, there are always those that push the limits – often strangely enough it is often those with ‘successful parents’ – parents too busy to be bothered checking what their kids are up to.

    I was often confronted with little jerks like these – always accompanied by their parents who couldn’t understand where they had gone wrong – they’d paid for the best teachers, bought their child a car so they didn’t have to wander the streets, taken them to disneyland, and they considered their child their best friend – I always asked the same question “so if you were being their friend, who was being their parent?”. These boys are just naughty brats – they aren’t sex offenders, they are probably in the long run (except maybe one of them) capable of leading respectable lives, after they’ve got over this.

    But they have done wrong, and they have irresponsibly encouraged others to follow and in doing so created a dangerous precedent – especially if the law is unable to modify the behaviour.

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  110. nasska (10,622 comments) says:

    frankflintstone

    Unless they actually witnessed the rape how could their input be more than hearsay?

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  111. Manolo (13,327 comments) says:

    Fear-mongering and the spreading of rumours and falsities are P.G.’s tools of trade.
    He thinks, believes, men are all rapists. Period.

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  112. Judith (7,486 comments) says:

    Pete George (19,451) Says:
    November 7th, 2013 at 10:05 am
    This had to happen – Minister refers case to IPCA

    Oh well, we can all rest easy now then – do you want to wait for the answer because I think most of us know who the IPCA will defend… Good on Ms Tolley for taking that action – bless her for her blissful ignorance in believing the IPCA will conduct a balanced investigation.

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  113. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    “To suggest that rapists & bashers take the slightest note of what their fellow men think or say is even more so.”

    Crap. Peer pressure is a significant factor.

    These boys almost certainly were continuing to behave as they did in part at least because of the attention and encouragement they were getting – they even sought attention on Facebook.

    Do you think they will continue now many ‘fellow men’ have made expressed their outrage?

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  114. Judith (7,486 comments) says:

    @ Manolo (11,090) Says:
    November 7th, 2013 at 10:07 am

    Rubbish, PG has NEVER said or even implied that.

    Rapists exist in society – I actually think it takes a real man to acknowledge that, and real men to put a stop to things like this happening by not encouraging or excusing such behaviour with wimpish excuses.

    Real men don’t rape – real men are capable of forming the bonds that lead to consensual sex – if not they pay a prostitute.

    Wimps, perverts and unattractive (personality wise) men need to get their sexual partners drunk and perform in front of other men to prove they are a man.

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  115. nasska (10,622 comments) says:

    PG

    If they were just trying something different once then I’d go along with you. If group sex & rape is their “thing” they will carry on with this behaviour later on perhaps within a different group & at another location.

    A psychopath doesn’t give stuff about others condemnation or the feelings of their victims.

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  116. Harriet (4,497 comments) says:

    “…..One way of addressing this is for once silent silent men to speak up and confront predatory and abusive behaviour and make it clear that most people think it is unacceptable and shouldn’t be tolerated….”

    LOL – what a joke PG ! :cool:

    OK then:

    Feminists, metrosexuals and gays can stop the abusive behaviour of de-humanising males. A male’s role in society is to PROTECT AND SUPPORT women. It’s not to have their livelyhoods taken from them – and then their kids!

    Or don’t you want true equality in society? What……you’d rather instead make second class citizens of males and turn good family men into minimum wage workers?

    ‘Progressive’ women are a cancer on society as the feminists and capitalists have nothing more than a non-agression pact which promotes women at the expense of men – and reduces the wage structure that males and their families could benefit from.

    There are now half as many positions in a workplaces employment structure for men to fill!

    And Labour’s bloody ‘wimmin’ want to make a token effort with a ‘living wage’ for males ? WELL FUCK THAT!!!!!!!

    Progressive women have totally and utterly failed at building anything constructive in NZ society.

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  117. Judith (7,486 comments) says:

    @ Harriet (2,912) Says:
    November 7th, 2013 at 10:20 am

    Progressive HUMANS have totally and utterly failed at building anything constructive in NZ society.

    If you consider the male dominance in politics, then blaming females alone for how society has developed is unbalanced.

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  118. jackinabox (555 comments) says:

    Judith (4,283) Says:
    November 7th, 2013 at 10:08 am

    Pete George (19,451) Says:
    November 7th, 2013 at 10:05 am
    This had to happen – Minister refers case to IPCA

    Oh well, we can all rest easy now then – do you want to wait for the answer because I think most of us know who the IPCA will defend… Good on Ms Tolley for taking that action – bless her for her blissful ignorance in believing the IPCA will conduct a balanced investigation.

    What ignorant dumbarses gave that post the thumbs down?

    If the IPCA does have a road to Damascus moment and find against the Police I’m sure Tolly et al will appoint Kristy McDonald QC to review the IPCA’s unpalatable findings.

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  119. jcuk (577 comments) says:

    Judith … No it is not the 13yo’s fault but her parents for not taking care of her properly, in cautioning her about the dangers she faces as a young woman. I know it is difficult but what parents of a daughter have to do.

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  120. kowtow (7,584 comments) says:

    You don’t have to witness it to be a witness.

    At least in the past in some common law jurisdictions an “early complaint” of rape was accepted and allowed in court as evidence in corroboration of the complaint.

    Under normal rules of evidence it would be hearsay ,but for rape ,it was held to be OK.

    So a woman telling a friend shortly after the event is or was evidence.And I believe that friend could be called as a witness of the early complaint.

    It’s not proof that a rape took place ,but corroboration of the victims’ claims.

    ps any idiot who thinks this is a beat up or conspiracy to change the law needs to renew the tinfoil on their head (kea).

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  121. wreck1080 (3,725 comments) says:

    I agree with FE Smith albeit would like to correct one thing. …

    “Their lack of action on the complaint is possibly not as bad as some are saying, because a complaint is not and should not be an automatic trigger for charges”

    There were 4 complaints, although, the timing of the other 3 complaints is unclear but I think they were from before this all became public knowledge.

    These boys safety is at significant risk too – their photos are all over the media — and if they escape trial due to ‘lack of evidence’ I think there is a good chance that some less law abiding citizens will take matters into their own hands. Really, they are never going to have a future in this country anyway and will always be known publicly as rapists unless they face a judge & jury .

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  122. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    Lazy cops…quick to ping ya for no seat belt but non existent in chasing serious crime

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  123. Bovver (143 comments) says:

    Some Kiwi’s are thick as bro:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11152860

    Poor guy.

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  124. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    kowtow, you seem to have a habit of believing things without evidence simply because someone declares it true by fiat.

    How about the 95% of young women who are defending the actions of the boys ?

    If you have some evidence now is the time to present it. Better yet, present your evidence to the cops. They have tried to find some 4 x now and come up with nothing.

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  125. RRM (9,427 comments) says:

    Really, they are never going to have a future in this country anyway and will always be known publicly as rapists unless they face a judge & jury

    You sure?

    In two months’ time I doubt most people will even remember their names. I couldn’t tell you what their names are without scrolling up to the top of this page…

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  126. kowtow (7,584 comments) says:

    Kea (8,815) Says:
    November 7th, 2013 at 8:41 am
    nasska, this whole thing is beat up as part of an ongoing campaign to lower the standard of evidence for rape convictions.

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    Evidence please.

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  127. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “Evidence please.”

    kowtow, yes that is what I asked for: EVIDENCE

    The police have not found any after four attempts. Maybe you can help ?

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  128. Right of way is Way of Right (1,129 comments) says:

    Kea, I find your attitude in this case to be somewhat disturbing.

    First and foremost, I agree that there have been, and there will continue to be, women who scream rape and make allegations of rape when no such offence has occured. They ruin the lives of many young men, and some of these vexatious complaints need to be addressed, and some of the women concerned need to be charged with making a false complaint. That, however, is a subject best left for another thread.

    What this thread should plainly be concerned with is the disgusting and despicable attitude towards women that has been displayed by these individuals.

    Where has it come from?

    Who are the men in the lives of these youths who have so badly let down society by not instilling proper values in their sons?

    Why have the police allowed them to get away from this for TWO YEARS!

    And as for four attempts, how can you call it gathering evidence when your main line of questioning to a 13 year old girl is asking about the clothes that you were wearing, and why did you go to the party in the first place?

    Kea, get a grip, it is the attitude that you display here that has been duplicated by members of the Police, and has enabled the ‘roast-busters’ to do what they have done!

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  129. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Right of way is Way of Right, my attitude is to approach this with an open mind and establish the facts.

    Yours is to play on emotion and promote extremist feminist doctrine as fact, with no regard to the acutal circumstances.

    Ask yourself who is likely to arrive at a fair and just outcome if you were wrongly accused of a sex crime ?

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  130. nasska (10,622 comments) says:

    To summarise the details of what has been revealed to date:

    1) Thirteen year old girl meets up with three slightly older males.

    2) Allegedly she is given sufficient alcohol to render her incapable of knowing what she’s doing.

    3) The “action” allegedly takes place in a room of the house belonging to one of the parents of the boys.

    4) There are allegedly no witnesses.

    5) Days later she tells her parents….presumably too late for DNA evidence to be obtained.

    6) The parents take her to the Police & lodge a formal complaint.

    If the three boys have a different story or deny the matter completely then what are the police supposed to do to get a conviction? Manufacture evidence? Beat a ‘confession’ out of the boys? Forget what’s being revealed on TV & what is written on Facebook. Any good lawyer would have this crap thrown out of court & so they should.

    The situation is far from ideal but I’d like to think that we live in a country where evidence presented to a judge or jury decides someone’s fate…..not a pack of anti male feminists, complete with their agendas, baying for blood.

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  131. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    Kea, you act much like Redbaiter. You try to depct anyone who disagrees with your extreme views as extreme, like “Yours is to play on emotion and promote extremist feminist doctrine as fact”. You’re as feminist obsessed as Redbaiter is ‘prog’ obsessed. And you are as lacking in facts to back up your wild accusations.

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  132. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    PG, if you have any actual information, upon which you base your views, then please contact the Police, not Kea.

    Or shut the fuck up.

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  133. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    Kea’s JAQing off Pete.

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  134. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    Judith (4,286) Says: November 7th, 2013 at 10:05 am. I do think, just as is demonstrated here, that many people prefer to excuse the behaviour as simple boasting and teenage immaturity…

    Nobody here has tried to excuse anything. This (reported) behaviour by the boys is repugnant and possibly illegal. I say possibly because there is some allowance for underage sex if there is less than a certain difference in age.

    This behaviour by the boys and the girls should not be tolerated by the parents.

    Nobody is trying to justify it. Some are trying to explain it.

    I have noticed before, Judith, your inability to grasp the essence of an argument. Your insistence on manipulating all the evidence to fit your prejudices and coming to totally the wrong conclusion, which you continue to hold despite others showing its absurdity.

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  135. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    Kea, there is ample information upon which I base my views of you on this thread and many others. And it’s obviously a view fairly commonly shared by others, you’ve often been called on it. You’re an abusive misogynist prat.

    Get stuffed.

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  136. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    PG, yes yes yes yes. Got all that. Kea is a bastard.

    But you really should tell the Police about your EVIDENCE

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  137. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    nasska, I agree that the situation is far from ideal, but I don’t agree that the furore is dominated by “a pack of anti male feminists, complete with their agendas, baying for blood”.

    There is widespread concern and anger being expressed by a big cross-section of public media and politics. Kiwiblog is unusual (unique as far as I’ve seen) in social media where there are a few outspoken misogynists and apologists alongside some who don’t get it, and many who do get the breadth and depth of the problem.

    It’s probably going to be a bit unfair that a few boys may bear the brunt of the angst disproportionate to what they have done, but sometimes life ain’t fair. There are a large number of sexual assault victims who continue to bear the brunt of sexual predators, life hasn’t been fair to them either, and neither have the police been fair, and neither have the silent majority..

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  138. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    Kea, I’m not making a complaint to the police, I’m pointing out there is ample evidence here proving what a dipstick you are.

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  139. Judith (7,486 comments) says:

    nasska (7,925) Says:
    November 7th, 2013 at 12:36 pm
    To summarise the details of what has been revealed to date:

    1) Thirteen year old girl meets up with three slightly older males.

    2) Allegedly she is given sufficient alcohol to render her incapable of knowing what she’s doing.

    3) The “action” allegedly takes place in a room of the house belonging to one of the parents of the boys.

    4) There are allegedly no witnesses.

    5) Days later she tells her parents….presumably too late for DNA evidence to be obtained.

    6) The parents take her to the Police & lodge a formal complaint.

    You left a few points off.

    7) Boys boast about conquest of the complaint on Youtube. Posts remained on site until recent removal.

    8) One boy apologises on FB, but tells victim it ‘could get messy’ if she goes to the police

    9) Two other underage girls contact police in the same year after having experienced similar. They do not formalise their complaints.

    10) The following year another girl makes a statement to police (also underage) stating very similar pattern of events. No formal statement taken.

    11) Facebook comments made by five “roast busters” represent the exact type of behaviour was committed that the girls are laying claim to.

    12) Facebook remove the page concerned because of concerns about the content.

    There would be nothing in it if there was not all that supporting evidence, some of which came from the ‘roast busters’ themselves. You cannot ignore that.

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  140. Concentrate (29 comments) says:

    @Dennis the reported behavior is unequivocally illegal not possibly. Ignoring the statutory rape the victim clearly alleges she repeatedly said no.

    “She said the line of questioning centred on the clothes she was wearing and why she had chosen to go out with the group”

    I can’t see a scenario where her clothing should be relevant.

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  141. wf (371 comments) says:

    All this talk about ‘extreme’ feminist politics! Certainly the thought has got a few commentators a bit agitated. And lynch mobs – they don’t talk, they do.

    If the feminists got really extreme, those very unattractive boys(?) would be strung from a power pole to warn others to keep their pants zipped – now that would be a lynch mob activity!

    Who remembers the university type that got tied to a tree for harassing his female students? I wonder how he’s doing these days?

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  142. SGA (800 comments) says:

    wf at 1:15 pm

    Who remembers the university type that got tied to a tree for harassing his female students? I wonder how he’s doing these days?

    Hadn’t thought of that for an age. He died in 1992 apparently.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mervyn_Thompson

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  143. nasska (10,622 comments) says:

    PG

    We of the blogosphere have gone as far as we can with this case….it’s in the hands of the police as it should be & it’s up to them to decide if they have sufficient evidence to proceed with a prosecution.

    What concerns me is that the heat generated will be used by the anti male feminists to have legislation altered. They are on record as saying “all men are rapists” & women don’t lie about rape”, both of which are demonstrated as untrue on a regular basis.

    The women’s movement was needed to overturn some laws & attitudes that severely disadvantaged them….similarly we could say that trade unions did a great job in the early part of last century by giving workers rights & a voice.

    What needs to be remembered is that all protest groups have a ‘use by’ date after which they are taken over by extreme militants with extreme agendas. The Roast Busters case is going to be used by the sisterhood to further disadvantage males in our society.

    If this happens there will be no winners.

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  144. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    “This behaviour by the boys and the girls should not be tolerated by the parents.”

    That appears to be sharing the blame between the boys and the girls. There are no allegations of girls being perpetrators here.

    Most parents wouldn’t tolerate their girls being raped, hence the current furore about doing something about the boys’ behaviour.

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  145. nasska (10,622 comments) says:

    ….”There would be nothing in it if there was not all that supporting evidence”….

    I don’t want to rehash every comment over the past couple of days Judith but there seems to be plenty of doubt whether any of what you added is likely to come under the heading of reliable evidence.

    In any case we’ll find out soon enough…..the police are under pressure & now they will prosecute if there’s the slightest chance of success.

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  146. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    nasska, the ‘sisterhood’ are only a small part of this issue as far as I’ve seen. I saw a (I think) female a few days ago at The Standard suggest all claims of rape should be accepted as fact and they were immediately challenged by another female saying that was totally unacceptable.

    If the majority of people speak up on this then there will be more chance of appropriate balance to the extreme views of people like a minority of feminists and keas.

    There are indications this case has awakened an angst in a majority of ordinary New Zealanders who have grave concerns about their kids and grandkids – both boys and girls.

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  147. nasska (10,622 comments) says:

    PG

    If there’s any good likely to come out of this you summed it up in your last paragraph…..hopefully it will sharpen up the attitudes of a few of those responsible for male & female teenagers.

    I wouldn’t be too upset about extreme views in this case. NZ is not a highly confrontational society & most of us live happily in the centre. If it weren’t for those who gets bugs in their brains over issues from time to time we’d stop thinking & get complacent.

    Without Keas the sisterhood would run roughshod over us.

    Without the sisterhood we might as well go & live in Abu Dhabi.

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  148. Concentrate (29 comments) says:

    @ Nasska It’s in the hands of the same police that said no complaint had been made at all on Monday. Are we supposed to believe that they fully investigated this complaint that they said so recently didn’t even exists? Excuse me for being skeptical of at the very least their competence.

    Nobody rational ever said “all men are rapist” or “women don’t lie about rape”. Stop trying to make this into some feminist vs men argument it isn’t, it’s alleged underage rapists vs alleged underage rape victim simple. Then you wander into trade unions and militants to further cloud things. People will always use any event they think can further their cause, I don’t see how this changes the fact the Police have some serious questions to answer.

    I personally think it’s very clear there was enough evidence (most compellingly the fact that these boys admitted this behavior) to warrant further investigation. Is there any evidence these boys were ever even questioned?

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  149. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    PG, is no more “tough on rape” than I am. He does not have any moral high ground and is not gods gift to women. It is all posturing and bullshit.

    He makes out that “other” men are soft on rape in a pathetic attempt to elevate himself by casting smears on his fellow man.

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  150. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    Concentrate (20) Says: November 7th, 2013 at 1:15 pm. @Dennis the reported behavior is unequivocally illegal not possibly. Ignoring the statutory rape the victim clearly alleges she repeatedly said no.

    It may not be statutory rape and it may not be rape. The gist of it is that there is publicity and about young girls having sex and group sex and the parents of one took her to the police some time after one session. The outcome is mob hysteria.

    Note: I have a ~30 year old daughter who walked home from hospitals in London in the middle of the night for years. My worst nightmare is that she will come to harm, although she lives in a nicer city now. I don’t need to have rape and assault on women explained to me.

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  151. Chuck Bird (4,667 comments) says:

    I have just heard a woman follow up an email with Danny Watson on NewstalkZB ring and say she was helping parents of another more recent victim who alleges rape 4 months ago. They made a formal complaint and the police are now fobbing them off. She sounds very credible.

    These scumbag will get charged one way or another probably by the police. If they do not I think there is a good chance of a private prosecution.

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  152. Judith (7,486 comments) says:

    @ Nasska

    Beraiah has a page on the ‘spring me’ website. He has photos of himself on there as well. It has not been taken down. He talks about some of the things he has done, and how he likes year 9 girls because they are ‘tighter’. Year 9 girls are underage. He also names girls on there – now, you may argue that is not evidence, but when at least four of the girls he has named as having had sex with, claim that it happened (even excluding the rape accusations), then you’d have to be stupid not to believe it is supporting evidence. They say the sex occurred and he says it did too. How much clearer can it be?

    Regardless of whether it was rape or not – those girls are underage and therefore it is a crime as he was over 16 years at the time. Whilst there are young people of those age groups having sex, we are not talking about a couple of young teenagers playing at having a relationship.

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  153. nasska (10,622 comments) says:

    Concentrate

    ….”Are we supposed to believe that they fully investigated this complaint that they said so recently didn’t even exists? “…..

    Who knows? What we can be sure of now is that while the Commissioner is being gently sautéed by his Minister little effort will be spared by the Police to sort things one way or the other.

    As to the “feminist vs men argument”, again time will tell but there will be few of the sisterhood genuinely upset at the way that this has played out.

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  154. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Women are likely to be very guarded about what they reveal to PG and the other moralising prats that are investing this thread with their boiler plate feminists hate speech.

    Those of us who are more accepting get told more. No woman, young or old, wants to lose face and look like a skank. Many of the views expressed here show a very idealistic and naive portrayal of women. I have already shared one story told to me by a young lady who got into exactly this sort of thing, and thought it was fun. If PG met her he would think butter would not melt in her mouth and she would play to that. She would not laugh about how she shagged a bunch of guys last night while partying !

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  155. RightNow (6,646 comments) says:

    Look I’m sure this is all just due to cultural differences.

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  156. RightNow (6,646 comments) says:

    “I have already shared one story told to me by a young lady who got into exactly this sort of thing, and thought it was fun.”

    Was she under 16?

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  157. Concentrate (29 comments) says:

    @Dennis “It may not be statutory rape and it may not be rape.” Hence my use of the words reported and alleges. You said “This (reported) behavior by the boys is repugnant and possibly illegal.” which is completely untrue the reported behavior is (irrespective of it’s veracity) clearly 100% illegal. I don’t agree with your “gist” of it either this is an alleged underage rape and I’m uncertain what relevance reporting time-frame has to this in any way at all. I have not been a victim of rape but I imagine it would be a very traumatic thing to have to admit to, which I doubt is helped by the kind of attitude the Police and some people in this thread seem to display.

    @nasska Fair enough.

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  158. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Without the sisterhood we might as well go & live in Abu Dhabi.

    nasska, how many drunken women get raped in Abu Dhabi ?

    I am pretty sure rape is highest in the places with the biggest infestations of feminists.

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  159. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “Was she under 16?”

    Not sure. I think she was. It was a few years back. Other young women have told me stuff too, about their friends and sisters. It is enough to shock even Kea !

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  160. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    Details from Newstalk ZB:

    UPDATE 1:31pm: Fresh allegations of police inaction over the Roast-busters case.

    A West Auckland woman told Danny Watson family friends went with their 13-year-old daughter to lay a complaint with police about an incident that happened four months ago.

    “Police did a scene examination, went and got everything got the girls clothes, they did a hospital thing, and they had two weeks of appointments – this that and the other. And then they heard nothing.”

    The woman says the family’s made repeated attempts to contact the officer investigating the complaint without success.

    She says the girl concerned has not been at school for several months and alleges she blacked out after sipping from a single can of alcohol – suggesting the drink may have been spiked.

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/487546231-police-minister-refers–roast-buster–case-to-ipca

    That is a different case than the four admitted by police this morning.

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  161. nasska (10,622 comments) says:

    ….”nasska, how many drunken women get raped in Abu Dhabi ?”….

    Probably very few Kea….they’d be stoned to death before they got the top off the bottle.

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  162. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    I think we can all agree that, on the face of it, the situation is unsatisfactory in several ways.

    IF these boys see nothing wrong with their behaviour to the point that they brag about it on Facebook, something is seriously wrong with their parents and our society. The girls and their parents are no better.

    Whatever the truth, we are reaping as we sowed. And we have just further undermined marriage, which is, whatever some people say, essentially about sex.

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  163. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    PG, so another example of a full investigation, including forensic tests, with NO EVIDENCE.

    The question you are no doubt asking is; why are these lying skanks are not being prosecuted to the full extent of the law? Because rape is a very very serious crime !

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  164. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    Kea: “I am pretty sure rape is highest in the places with the biggest infestations of feminists.”

    I think Kea must be a wind up troll doll. Surely no one could seriously make a claim like that.

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  165. kowtow (7,584 comments) says:

    bwahahahahahahahahahahahaah

    Nasska says “Without Keas the sisterhood would run roughshod over us.”

    bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha

    Talk about a sycophant! Kea (who is a troll ,Marnie Shepppeard) saves mankind!!!!!!

    bwahahahahahahahahahahahahah

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  166. Manolo (13,327 comments) says:

    From one obsession (Dunne) to another (rape).
    We can expect a myriad of comments on the topic pushing his extreme “hollier-than-thou” wheelbarrow.

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  167. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “she blacked out after sipping from a single can of alcohol – suggesting the drink may have been spiked.”

    Suggesting she is lying to avoid taking responsibility for her actions and to portray herself as a victim.

    How did she get so out of it but still recall all the facts with such detail ? Remarkable a ?

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  168. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I think Kea must be a wind up troll doll. Surely no one could seriously make a claim like that.

    PG, so you reckon this sort of thing goes down all the time in Saudi Arabia then ?

    Get a brain.

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  169. kowtow (7,584 comments) says:

    bwahahahahahahah

    kea troll spends all day demanding evidence from all and sundry and then acts as kangaroo judge and jury casting dubious aspertions on any claims made by the victims.

    troll

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  170. Concentrate (29 comments) says:

    @Dennis. You really have a way with words don’t you? I’m not sure Police incompetence or worse and an alleged case of underage rape really qualifies as “unsatisfactory”. Now you’re trying to (correct me if I’m wrong) bring same sex marriage into a discussion about heterosexual rape? The alleged perpetrators are the only ones who will be reaping what they sow, them and only them.

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  171. Judith (7,486 comments) says:

    Kea, do you know Beraiah Hales?

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  172. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    Reported rape cases in Saudi Arabia are increasing…

    In Saudi Arabia, rape cases usually target both the defendant and the victim, and in some cases, the victim can be sentenced to even harsher punishment than the assailant.

    Human Rights Watch has investigated the situation, and their report concludes that the rape victim is punished when they speak out against the crime. In one case, the victim’s sentence was doubled for speaking out; the court also harassed the victim’s lawyer, going so far as to confiscate his professional license.

    In 2009, the Saudi Gazette reported that a 23-year-old, unmarried woman was sentenced to one year in prison and 100 lashes for adultery. This woman had been gang-raped, became pregnant, and had tried (unsuccessfully) to abort the fetus. The flogging was postponed until after the delivery

    …despite victims being further punished so hardly will encouraged to report rape.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Saudi_Arabia

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  173. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    Matthew Hooton has just been on RadioLive.

    @publicaddress:

    In wholly unsurprising news, Jackson and Tamihere still in profound denial. Asshats.

    To Willie and JT. Matthew Hooton: “It was morally and journalistically cretinous of you.”

    Tamihere *still* talking disobedient 13 year-old girls being an “issue”.

    Willie and JT have told Hooton to “shut your mouth” and get out of the studio. They really don’t like being challenged.

    Like some here.

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  174. kowtow (7,584 comments) says:

    judith

    By asking the troll if it knows Hales ,you are implying an honest intent to the trolls trolling.

    Honest intent is the last thing motivating a troll.

    kea sets itself up as an expert on any topic discussed. Animal cruelty….owns horses.Police mismanagement……has done advocacy,christianity? don’t go there, Israel whooooooa, intimacy with women he’s Valentino (even down to the dusky skin bit)catholic responsibility for the Holocaust…..Arab terrorism, blal blah blah.

    and now an expert on criminal evidence and the vast feminist conspiracy to subvert the law! (so nasska his sycophant admirer believes)

    Don’t feed it.

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  175. Judith (7,486 comments) says:

    @ Pete George (19,462) Says:
    November 7th, 2013 at 2:32 pm

    So disobedient girls deserve to be punished by being raped or treated to acts of sexual perversion and/or ridicule?

    Wow – just when you think the human race has evolved, someone plunges you right back into the past.

    If my opinion is different, if my attitude is different from that, then I can only celebrate that difference. God forbid to have that kind of thought process.

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  176. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    @Concentrate. I have taken on board your argument and I agree with what you say about the rape. I was sloppy, but I did put the “reported” in brackets.

    When I was young sex was a serious business for mature adults and you were expected to get married, and marriage meant something. Society has given permission for young people to have sex any which way.

    If you play with fire you get burnt. We are all getting burnt. Not just the few involved in this particular case.

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  177. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Decent young ladies, who have had intelligence and self reliance cultivated in them, may experiment with this sort of drunken nonsense, but later feel it was not their thing. They might feel pretty bad about it. They would accept the results of their own actions, learn from it and move on. Just as my young friend did.

    That will be the 96% DPF referred to. The remaining girls have not had good values installed in them and so they attempt to play “victim” and pass responsibility for their actions onto others. That is the few remaining % we see making all this noise.

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  178. Concentrate (29 comments) says:

    @Dennis. I think there is a lot of truth to what you are saying, I just didn’t want it to be used as an excuse for this alleged behavior. Whatever societal factors are at play (and I’d be naive to ignore them) I think the buck stops with the young men.

    Thanks for being so reasonable I almost forgot it was the internet!

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  179. kowtow (7,584 comments) says:

    Definition of a decent young lady in troll kea land.

    Burka’d ,chaperoned and possessed.

    That way the only rapes that occur will be on the slutty westerners who are asking for it,because they’re not “decent”.

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  180. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “Kea, do you know Beraiah Hales?”

    Judith, no I had to google the name to know who you were talking about. If I did, I would be having a word with the lad.

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  181. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    @Concentrate. Thank you, too. I don’t see anyone here denying the seriousness of or excusing the behaviour of the boys. Personally I would give them a good thrashing. Once a week for quite a while.

    But I repeat, and think about it, Homo sapiens would (probably) not be walking the Earth but for rape.

    Incidentally, I once threatened my daughter — then aged 15-16 — with a belt when she was wilfully disobedient. After I threatened to knock down her bedroom door, she gave in. Fortunately. Parents are frightened of their children nowadays. It’s no good. There should be love and respect but at the very edge must be authority, that is, fear. She knew I meant business. I was breathing fire…

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  182. Concentrate (29 comments) says:

    @Kea By “drunken nonsense” you mean this alleged rape? You bray for evidence in your earlier posts then pull this highly speculative hypothetical out of your ass which casts aspersions on the alleged victims “decency” and “intelligence”. Not particularly consistent.

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  183. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    Dennis, there has always been mutual love and respect between myself and my children, and when they were young there was some authority, but never any need for fear. I would hate it if my kids or grandkids feared me.

    Concentrate – Kea is frequently inconsistent, but you’re talking about someone who wants females to be subservient and silent, and says that giving women the vote was a failed experiment.

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  184. kowtow (7,584 comments) says:

    concentrate

    Like I said to judith ,no point in engaging with the troll ,kea.

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  185. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    @Pete George. My stroppy daughter would have made mince meat of you, Pete, still would. She nearly had me and I’m tough.

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  186. F E Smith (3,301 comments) says:

    longknives,

    the media seem to portray the Police decision not to prosecute as made ‘off the cuff’ by some grizzled old redneck 80s throwback with a moustache and a sexist attitude.

    It may well have been, although you are probably correct in assuming that it is unlikely. 

     The reality is they put a hell of a lot of effort into any rape allegation, and take them bloody seriously (*I was once involved in one as a witness)

    Yes, they do, and so they should.  It is a seriously tough complaint to investigate and a bitch to either prosecute or defend.

    Wreck,

    There were 4 complaints, although, the timing of the other 3 complaints is unclear but I think they were from before this all became public knowledge.

    Even having 4 complaints does not require the Police to prosecute.  They must exercise their discretion on each complaint separately. It should have given them a strong hint, though!

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  187. F E Smith (3,301 comments) says:

    Ignoring the statutory rape the victim clearly alleges she repeatedly said no.

    NZ doesn’t have a crime of statutory rape, as the term is understood in some US jurisdictions. 

    If there is no consent to intercourse then it is a rape, regardless of the age of the victim.  If there was consent to the act, but the consenting person was under the age of 16 years then the crime is one of sexual conduct with a young person under 16 (to which there is even a defence, although it does not sound like its requirements could be met in these matters).

     

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  188. nasska (10,622 comments) says:

    F E Smith

    Would, in your opinion, the statements the “Roast Busters” made in the electronic media be evidence that could be used successfully in a prosecution?

    Thanks.

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  189. F E Smith (3,301 comments) says:

    Nasska,

    I have to confess that I have not read anything that they have said! I really have not followed it that closely, to be honest. I have seen the headlines but I have read little on it.

    Generally, anything that they have said in the media can be used in court, especially if it is an admission of some sort. Even just an acknowledgement that they had intercourse with a complainant is enough to allow an allegation to proceed if it coincides with what the complainant says. The main test for admissibility is relevance, so as long as the evidence of what they said is lawfully obtained, or even if it is unlawfully obtained in many cases, the evidence can be admitted.

    Hope that helps.

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  190. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Wow after a reported FIVE Police investigations, with forensics, people are actually taking this yarn seriously.

    On what basis ?

    It scares me that you lot are allowed to breed and vote.

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  191. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    @Kea. Where’s your sense of hysteria? :)

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  192. TheContrarian (1,073 comments) says:

    “with forensics”

    Citation needed.

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