General Debate 10 December 2013

December 10th, 2013 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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254 Responses to “General Debate 10 December 2013”

  1. kowtow (6,686 comments) says:

    Freedom lost in the PC UK.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2520662/Neil-Phillips-quizzed-8-HOURS-police-Nelson-Mandela-Twitter-jokes.html

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  2. Yoza (1,343 comments) says:

    Has John Banks resigned yet?

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 21 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. martinh (824 comments) says:

    If Len goes, be very scared as to who may replace him, penny hulse is much more left than len in her views

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  4. calendar girl (1,108 comments) says:

    Will the Ernst & Young report on the Len Brown “affair” be dropped on the public just before Christmas?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11169691

    And will Mr Brown reimburse Auckland Council personally for the total cost of the E&Y report? (After all, he considers that his extra-mural activities were a totally personal matter.)

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  5. flipper (3,267 comments) says:

    Jim Bolger may have retired from active politics, but he put down Minto and the TVNZ left wing producers this morning in a masterly display.

    The same left wing producers at TVNZ who yesterday fed lies to Street that J Key corrected at least three times, tried it on again this morning.
    Street tried the “what were your views in ‘81” line, but Bolger gave her no joy, and pushed both her and Minto under the bus, telling them that they should take note of what Mandela said and did, and follow his example.

    Earlier I commented:
    1. “flipper (2,806 comments) says:
    December 7th, 2013 at 9:26 am
    Pete George (20,057 comments) says:
    December 7th, 2013 at 8:38 am
    There’s been a number of people saying that Key shouldn’t attend Mandela’s funeral because he can’t say if he was for or against the Springbok tour. That’s absurd.
    *************
    It is absurd. But equally absurd is the suggestion that Minto and Richards should accompany the Prime Minister.
    Mandela’s was a just cause.
    Minto and Richards sought to suppress the legal rights of all New Zealander’s in favour of their own beliefs and standards.
    What those two pricks did that is in the public domain is just the tip of a very nasty iceberg. Had Muldoon and the Police shown a similar disregard for the rights of New Zealanders, neither Minto or Richards would be around today.
    It is time for the left wing and goodietwoshoe skullnuts to let it go…. to follow the example set by Mandela. May he rest in peace, a great job, well done.”

    I reiterate those comments.
    They apply also to the idiot puppetmasters sitting behind Street.
    The sad thing is that a taxpayer owned media organisation continues to peddle their lies and distortions. Sick.

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  6. martinh (824 comments) says:

    calendar girl, i hear itl be by the end of the week.
    If i dont see receipts from the hotels then he has to go, it has to be a room account and receipt number etc, everything id expect in a proper audit. EY knows how this works

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  7. OneTrack (1,954 comments) says:

    Yoza – “Has John Banks resigned yet?”

    Why, yes. Yes he has resigned as the Leader of Act while the court case proceeds. Some would call that integrity. But you only see that on the right.

    The lefties (Len) cant be dragged out of the trough.

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  8. OneTrack (1,954 comments) says:

    “Freedom lost in the PC UK.”

    Thought crimes are now here. Wasn’t too long after 1984 was it.

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  9. big bruv (12,322 comments) says:

    Has Len Brown resigned yet?

    Has Penny Bright paid her rates and water bill yet?

    Has Winston paid back the $158,000 he owes us yet?

    Has Dunne come clean about Andrea Vance as yet?

    Have we finally found out what happened at LAX yet?

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  10. James Stephenson (1,885 comments) says:

    I missed that, flipper, but I did catch the earlier platform provided for Russel Norman, as he tried and failed to name any other protest leader who could have been considered for a trip over. Be honest Russ, you can’t name anyone else can you?

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  11. Manolo (12,616 comments) says:

    Has Dunne come clean about Andrea Vance as yet?

    Hear, hear.
    We’re all waiting for the infatuated fantasist from Ohariu to tell the truth about the leaks (of all types.)

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  12. Keeping Stock (9,788 comments) says:

    Hone Harawira is off to Mandela’s funeral, possibly leaving as early as today. That’s fine; he can do what he likes, as long as no taxpayer money is used for his unofficial travel.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9497375/Hone-Harawira-heading-to-Mandela-funeral

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  13. Manolo (12,616 comments) says:

    The saint’s body is still warm, but:
    Following his death on Thursday at the age of 95, the scramble for control of the Mandela legacy – both financial and moral – will involve his family, the ruling African National Congress (ANC), and the Nelson Mandela Foundation he set up to protect his broader message.

    At stake is the inheritance that will go to Mandela’s more than 30 children, grandchildren and great grandchildren, some of whom already use the Mandela name and image to market everything from clothing to reality TV.

    http://ca.news.yahoo.com/family-politicians-battle-over-quot-brand-mandela-quot-110444682.html

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  14. MT_Tinman (2,790 comments) says:

    I am amazed at the number of racists (Sharples, Hatfield etc.) heading over for Mandela’s funeral.

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  15. OneTrack (1,954 comments) says:

    “he can do what he likes, as long as no taxpayer money is used for his unofficial travel.”

    Good luck with that plan. :-)

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  16. grumpy (226 comments) says:

    This is the sort of thing they said never happens. Now we’ve all been conned into accepting gay marriage, it comes out.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/9497260/Paedophile-who-bought-baby-jailed-30-years

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  17. big bruv (12,322 comments) says:

    It seems that Pita Sharples has decided that he wants to do some sort of rain dance at Mandela’s funeral.

    When will Maori learn that it is not always about them?

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  18. Sofia (777 comments) says:

    Mayor’s office says breach of council rules over visit to Hong Kong happened because of misunderstanding

    Len Brown’s office last night [November 27] confirmed that the Auckland Mayor has not complied with the council code of conduct rules over a trip to Hong Kong.

    Responding to an urgent request under official information laws by the Herald, Mr Brown’s chief of staff, Phil Wilson, owned up after chief executive Doug McKay allowed the issue to simmer for two days.
    Mr Wilson said he understood Mr Brown did not file an annual return of interests by July 31 under the code of conduct because it was under review at the time.

    Mr Brown went to Hong Kong on official business in January without telling councillors. The trip only came to light when Mr Brown’s two-year affair with Bevan Chuang hit the headlines last month.

    The mayor has refused to answer questions about the six-day trip, but his office said he travelled alone as one of three international guests of a Hong Kong Government-funded “special visitors programme”.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11163863

    What “misunderstanding” and by whom?
    Why did a review of the code mean Brown did not file a return of interests?
    Why did Brown not announce the trip at the time, and why refuse to answer questions about it since?
    Will the Ernst & Young report, supposedly to be released later this week, cover this trip to establish it was above broad?

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  19. James Stephenson (1,885 comments) says:

    When will Maori learn that it is not always about them?

    It’s not just Maori this time, everyone and their uncle from Jacob Zuma to Barry O’Bama to Jonah Broon are making their grab for reflected glory.

    http://order-order.com/2013/12/09/gordons-mandela-speech-in-stats/

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  20. stephieboy (1,110 comments) says:

    I had the strangest of dreams last night.A Brown race was in control of New Zealand and the White majority were forced to live in allocated Homelands mainly in the less arable and marginal regions like the Central plateau. The carrying of passes was made mandatory which restricted the areas the whites could both travel and live.Recreational areas like beaches and parks were made compulsorily separate with the white majority allocated e.g the more stony and dangerous beaches . Separate public toilets were provide with the white only ones missing out on the regular clean.
    Then from their midst came an organization called the RWR – The Right Wing Resistance led by a Kylie Chapman. They advocated violent struggle against the violent brown minority . The brown government accused this lot of terrorism labeling them Nazi extremists and suppressed them. A treason trial ensured with Chapman and his followers sentenced to long,long terms of imprisonment . Time passed when one day in an area known as Otahuhu, the whites forced to live there decided to burn their hated passes in protest. A large throng gathered..The police responded by opening fire on the assembled white mob. Brown official government propaganda blamed the reckless extremist RWR” Nazi” elements for the riot and numerous deaths and serious injuries…….

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  21. Stamper (30 comments) says:

    Folks – Regarding PantsDownBrown – you need to remember how the process works

    Target of report decides who owes him & hires them for writing the report
    Write a report at GREAT expense [and drag out process to let the storm die down]
    Target negotiates the contents of the report

    Result –
    white-wash is OK for all parties [except those paying for it]
    Business as usual at the Council and their report writers continue to get favourable contracts ahead of the pack.

    Bloody hopeless.
    Toss the Tosser OUT I say

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  22. Manolo (12,616 comments) says:

    Can we do this with Lusty Len? http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/12/09/ex-san-diego-mayor-sentenced-to-home-confinement-probation-for-harassment/?intcmp=latestnews

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  23. martinh (824 comments) says:

    Stamper
    Ernest and Youngs reputation is on the line here- I expect a thorough report- watch carefully here for a case where the mayor has not provided the required access to his personal information at hotels.
    Remember Bevan said they got free hotel rooms- if they werent complementary they will all be in the accounts and able to be given to the EY report.
    If they are not in it then it would indicate a very serious act(s) has taken place

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  24. jcuk (502 comments) says:

    I heard that there is criticism of the TV coverage of Mandela in Britain .. too too much …. at times like this I am glad I don’t have TV

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  25. martinh (824 comments) says:

    Stamper
    Also remember Bevan was interviewed for this report.

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  26. Keeping Stock (9,788 comments) says:

    Absolutely agree martinh; EY will not let its global reputation be tarnished by a tin-pot mayor in a small country at the bottom of the world. Its report will be absolutely straight-up, and clearly it has found fault with Brown; why else would he be “taking advice”?

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  27. jcuk (502 comments) says:

    Stamper … I gather he is not a tosser … that is the point of the story.

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  28. Manolo (12,616 comments) says:

    It’s compulsory. All KB readers and commenters must attend: http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8768621/kiwi-services-planned-for-mandela

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  29. James Stephenson (1,885 comments) says:

    I heard that there is criticism of the TV coverage of Mandela in Britain .. too too much

    Yeah, half the East Coast under water, and it’s wall-to-wall Mandela. Biased Broadcasting Corp says “We were right, he was the most significant statesman in the last 100 years”.

    Thou shalt not question lefty iconography. (Learnt that one on Bookface myself…)

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  30. Sofia (777 comments) says:

    Obama Faces Backlash Over New Corporate Powers In Secret Trade Deal
    TPP

    WASHINGTON — The Obama administration appears to have almost no international support for controversial new trade standards that would grant radical new political powers to corporations, increase the cost of prescription medications and restrict bank regulation, according to two internal memos obtained by The Huffington Post.

    Australia and New Zealand have medical boards that allow the government to reject expensive new drugs for the public health system, or negotiate lower prices with drug companies that own patents on them. If a new drug does not offer sufficient benefits over existing generic drugs, the boards can reject spending taxpayer money on the new medicines. They can also refuse to pay high prices for new drugs. The Obama administration has been pushing to ban these activities by national boards, which would lock in big profits for U.S. drug companies. Obamacare sought to mimic the behavior of these boards to lower domestic health care costs by granting new flexibilities to U.S. state agencies for determining drug prices.

    “The positions are still paralyzed,” the December memo reads, referring to the Financial Services Chapter. “The United States shows zero flexibility.”

    Previously leaked TPP documents have sparked alarm among global health experts, Internet freedom activists, environmentalists and organized labor, but are adamantly supported by American corporations and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. The Obama administration has deemed negotiations to be classified information – banning members of Congress from discussing the American negotiating position with the press or the public. Congressional staffers have been restricted from viewing the documents.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/08/tpp-trade-agreement_n_4409211.html

    As has been suggested before, if the Americans are upset by this deal, how fucking worried should New Zealanders be?

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  31. martinh (824 comments) says:

    Keeping Stock
    Exactly. the big issue for me will be whether there will be evidence of a criminal matter requiring police investigation.

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  32. wikiriwhis business (3,276 comments) says:

    The original speech from General Smedley Butler.

    “War is a Racket”

    Marine general Smedley Butler speaks on how he ran all his military operations for banksters.

    If you know your history, you know that in 1934 there was an attempted coup in the United States that was thwarted largely due to the efforts of U.S. Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler (ret.)

    Look it up.

    Among other things, Butler was only one of 19 people ever awarded the Medal of Honor twice and the only person to be awarded a Marine Corps Brevet Medal and a Medal of Honor for two different actions.

    After it dawned on him how his heroism and the heroism of the troops under his command had been misused, he wrote a book called “War is a Racket” which I can virtually guarantee you never heard about in school.

    Butler concluded there are only two reasons to ever take up arms:

    1. To defend the country against real – not manufactured – attacks
    2. To defend the Bill of Rights

    http://www.brasschecktv.com/videos/war-is-a-racket-1/war-is-a-racket.html

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  33. Keeping Stock (9,788 comments) says:

    I don’t think there needs to be any criminality for Brown to resign martinh; a finding that he showed a lack of judgment by providing Ms Chuang with a reference, or that there was a clear conflict of interest, and Len Brown’s goose will be ccoked.

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  34. Manolo (12,616 comments) says:

    A Green Grinch: http://michellemalkin.com/2013/12/09/greenpeace-santa-christmas-canceled-unless-world-halts-global-warming/

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  35. martinh (824 comments) says:

    Keeping Stock
    Free hotel rooms (no evidence of receipt) would be evidence of a criminal matter. I must be careful what i say here but it would be a very serious matter if this is what EY found

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  36. martinh (824 comments) says:

    Keeping Stock.
    Yep i agree he doesnt need to of had any criminal evidence found against him to make him resign, but theres a possibility there may be that to add to his woes too

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  37. J Bloggs (100 comments) says:

    Keeping Stock: Unfortunately, lacking a means of forcing Len out, we are reliant on a resignation. This, in turn, would require Len to demonstrate some sense of ethics or morals. Something that has so far been conspicuous in its absence

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  38. flipper (3,267 comments) says:

    martinh (575 comments) says:

    December 10th, 2013 at 9:44 am

    Keeping Stock
    Free hotel rooms (no evidence of receipt) would be evidence of a criminal matter
    *****

    Pardon …. How so?

    Far be it from me to advocate for silly red Len, but there is a difference between immorality and stupidity necessitating resignation, and criminality is there not?

    Can you point to anything in the Crimes Act that makes giving or accepting “free bees” a criminal offence? The closest might be a secret commission, but that would be stretching it somewhat.

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  39. martinh (824 comments) says:

    Jo Bloggs
    You do have a means of forcing him out should he be found guilty of a criminal offence that has a certain maximum type of sentence. Ive forgotten what the minimum jail term needs to be but its something like if its an offence which can mean imprisonment for three years he can be made to resign even if he didnt go to jail

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  40. martinh (824 comments) says:

    Flipper
    Crimes Act Section 105
    You would have to look at what decisions the mayor was doing as a public official around that time.

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  41. flipper (3,267 comments) says:

    martinh (578 comments) says:

    December 10th, 2013 at 10:09 am

    Flipper
    Crimes Act Section 105
    *****
    Enlighten everyone

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  42. Gulag1917 (425 comments) says:

    Is the Australian economy going to implode?
    Australia rejects raising debt ceiling, hopes to avoid America-style shutdown
    http://rt.com/business/australia-senate-rejects-debt-718/

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  43. martinh (824 comments) says:

    Flipper
    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM328753.html

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  44. flipper (3,267 comments) says:

    martinh…
    Yes, read Section 105 before you posted the link.
    Can you point to any precedent?

    If you are serious, then your view would result in wholesale prosecutions, day in and day out.

    Think about those free airline and theatre tickets (I have had a few) … rugby test tickets…

    As I said, Brown is a fool, a liar, and a re-writer of rules to suit himself, but unless you can prove intent to bribe, and so on, forget it.

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  45. martinh (824 comments) says:

    Flipper- A you a public official?
    If so do you have a code which makes you declare such offers so that you cant get accused of such a thing yet you deliberately chose to not declare them?
    If you did that (deliberately didnt declare them) what was your intent in doing that?

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  46. martinh (824 comments) says:

    Flipper
    Now do you see why i as a auditor know why i need to see these receipts? EY investigators will of being the same

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  47. dime (8,746 comments) says:

    “Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott has promised he will lift the debt ceiling of the world’s 12th-largest economy to AU$500 billion, but is facing opposition from the Labor Party and Greens, who want to cap the limit at AU$400 billion (about$373 billion). ”

    lol ummm

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  48. wikiriwhis business (3,276 comments) says:

    dime

    I was told Oz has no overseas deficit because of the mining industry which ironically they tarriff incredibly hard.

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  49. martinh (824 comments) says:

    Flipper
    Remember that the Serious fraud Office is currently investigating officials at Auckland Transport. I would assume it would include looking at this part of the Crimes Act

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  50. MH (558 comments) says:

    After Hatfield leaves the funeral,where will he go this time? He’s done Paris,maybe Victoria Falls or Niagara (he said it sounded African).

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  51. MT_Tinman (2,790 comments) says:

    wikiriwhis business (2,583 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 10:35 am

    I was told Oz has no overseas deficit because of the mining industry which ironically they tarriff incredibly hard.

    The same mining industry that is folding due to ridiculous taxation?

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  52. flipper (3,267 comments) says:

    martinh (581 comments) says:

    December 10th, 2013 at 10:29 am

    Flipper
    ************

    Not a public official. But I stand by my view that you are mistaken.

    Unless the code has statutory or regulation backing it is voluntary, and NOT legally enforceable, is it?

    Were I a public official of any kind, I would observe the voluntary code. But an omission or an evasion (on a voluntary statement) does NOT constitute criminality. And unless your brief to audit includes observance of any code, you might be exceeding your brief and suggesting criminality where nothing provable exists.

    Silly issue really.

    If silly Len accepted a freebee in the current circumstances he is done for. But that does NOT constitute criminality. And if you doubt my view ask why Police officers / Crown lawyers who admit hiding or bending crucial evidence are not prosecuted for perverting the course of justice. Too hard to prove criminal intent ???

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  53. MT_Tinman (2,790 comments) says:

    MH (342 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 10:43 am
    After Hatfield leaves the funeral,where will he go this time? He’s done Paris,maybe Victoria Falls or Niagara (he said it sounded African).

    Anywhere except NZ would be good – at his own expense of course.

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  54. iMP (2,147 comments) says:

    What impact will David Tua have punching for the Maori party?

    http://conzervative.wordpress.com/2013/12/10/what-impact-tua-punching-for-maori-party/

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  55. martinh (824 comments) says:

    Flipper
    I disagree, not including it gives the impression that that is what occurred and thus gives enough evidence for further criminal investigation. Not including it doesnt have to be illegal (as in not in a Act) for it to be significant as not including it constitutes an offence but it is still evidence.
    EY was i believe asked to look as to whether there was breach with the code
    Why police officers who admit hiding or bending evidence is not prosecuted is a totally different matter.

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  56. Ross12 (926 comments) says:

    Changing the subject abit. Have the Greens come out and said they do not condone (or similar words) the comments on Twitter by Max Dillon Coyle ?? If not why not or are we to imply they, at the very least, do mind them?

    Sofia @9.35 –It might be a case of, if the USA is not happy with them, the negotiations are going the right way !!

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  57. wikiriwhis business (3,276 comments) says:

    ‘The same mining industry that is folding due to ridiculous taxation?’

    Which was my point. Oz sems to have shot themselves in the foot concerning their mining industry.

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  58. martinh (824 comments) says:

    Trying to edit above- what i meant was not including it may not be illegal but it is evidence that it might of being done for illegal purposes

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  59. wikiriwhis business (3,276 comments) says:

    ‘Paul McMahon, of St John of God Waipuna, said: “It’s astounding what people can get themselves into just to have a good Christmas.

    “So many families will get themselves into financial strife because of Christmas, or the lead-up to Christmas.

    “Lots of middle-class families nowadays do a Secret Santa, because it’s just so expensive. If that’s what it’s like for the middle class, imagine what it’s like when you’ve got a fixed income. Low-income families get into considerable debt at Christmas.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9496155/Quiet-Xmas-on-struggle-street

    So this is the reality in the real NZ world.

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  60. big bruv (12,322 comments) says:

    David Tua as a Maori party MP?

    I guess he will raise the average IQ level of the Maori party.

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  61. flipper (3,267 comments) says:

    martinh…
    Sorry, but you are clutching, in vain.

    There has to be an attempt to bribe, or the actual commission of a corrupt act.

    I repeat: Acceptance of an undeclared “freebe” does not constitute criminality, unless it contravenes a Statute or regulation. Failing to declare in a voluntary disclosure situation does not constitute criminality. And even if it did, proving Mens Rea would be somewhat difficult, would it not?

    The SFO examination of Auckland Transport is interesting, but it is at this time, so we have been told, just an investigation. But I doubt they are checking on free hotel rooms. :-).

    What EY, a reputable international franchise, is doing relates to the ACC code…which silly Len says does not apply to him.

    If you think what he has done is criminal, then launch a private prosecution. You might be as “successful” as McCreadie. Or…… you might not… :-)

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  62. Reid (15,505 comments) says:

    Len will be undone by public humiliation. The sniggering behind his back will be something his ego will be unable to bear the longer it continues. At this moment he is able to write off in his own mind such people as the disaffected few but the longer it goes on and the more people who do it the less able he will become successfully to do this. Eventually he will be forced to face up to the fact he’s not such the tremendous winner he has always thought himself to be but he will resist this conclusion every step of the way because his whole self-image depends on it.

    But that will be his undoing, unless the report contains a firing offence. Their clear strategy has always been to tough it out and hope that the Christmas break will make everything fade from people’s minds. That won’t happen because this is much more significant than a mere affair but that’s why they delayed the draft by three weeks, not because EY couldn’t get it done in time but because ACC spinmeisters had decided it was too long a lead-up till the blessed Christmas memory hole if they’d stuck to the original timetable. But the report probably won’t have a firing offence. So it’ll be chipping away at his own ego that will see him fall, because he won’t last the term.

    And Whale of course has indicated there is more to come on this, and Cam doesn’t lie about things like that. Every time he’s ever said there is more to come, on any story, every time he’s always delivered. Goody.

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  63. martinh (824 comments) says:

    Flipper
    “There has to be an attempt to bribe, or the actual commission of a corrupt act.”

    I dont know if there has being but if there were free hotel rooms and the mayor made decisions affecting those people at the time id say the possibility exists so il be interested, if that is whats found, what the police do.

    I have to go to see a client so talk to you when this reports out
    cheers
    Ps i think id leave that to Mc Creadie hes the NZ expert on that!

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  64. flipper (3,267 comments) says:

    Martinh…

    Cool ….
    Just so there is no misunderstanding…Brown should resign – yesterday.

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  65. Fletch (5,716 comments) says:

    Yep, it looks like Obama lied about the chemical attacks in Syria.
    Many of us on this board pointed to evidence that it was more likely to be rebels who used chemical weapons and not the Assad regime, and now it’s looking like Obama cherry-picked the reports he liked to come to the conclusion he wanted.

    The Obama administration quashed intelligence reports that suggested an al Qaeda-linked group could have been responsible for the sarin gas attack carried out in Syria last August, according to a news report published in London on Sunday.

    In threatening a U.S. military strike on Syria during the weeks that followed after the Aug. 21 chemical attack, President Obama and Secretary of State John F. Kerry cited “definitive” evidence that Syrian President Bashar Assad had been responsible for the incident.

    What they kept secret, according to an article by Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist Seymour Hersh, was the belief of U.S. spy agencies that military forces loyal to Mr. Assad were not ones in Syria’s civil war to have access to sarin.

    “In the months before the attack, the American intelligence agencies produced a series of highly classified reports, culminating in a formal ‘Operations Order’ — a planning document that precedes a ground invasion — citing evidence that the al-Nusra Front, a jihadi group affiliated with al Qaeda, had master the mechanics of creating sarin and was capable of manufacturing it in quantity,” Mr. Hersh wrote in the London Review of Books.

    The al-Nusra Front was officially designated a “foreign terrorist organization by the Obama administration last year and should have been a suspect, according to the Hersh article.

    Instead, in order to solidify a White House narrative that Mr. Assad had crossed Mr. Obama’s “red line” by using chemical weapons, the Obama administration “cherry-picked intelligence to justify a strike against Assad,” the article claims.

    As of Monday, the White House had not responded to the article, which provides backing for Russian claims that the Syrian rebels were behind the deadly August attack

    U.S. officials have said more than 1,400 people, the majority of them innocent civilians, were killed in the attack.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/9/obama-lied-about-syrian-chemical-attack-cherry-pic/

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  66. MH (558 comments) says:

    focus or pressure on Len’s wife would be the way to go, if one was a true political animal looking for the achilles heel.
    Without the overt support of his wife he is a gonner,but of course like Caesar’s wife she is above mention.

    Will have to wait to see what Sir Bob Jones has to say about the left hooker throwing his name into the ring. After all one is chosen on colour of ones character and not skin in the Maori Party. Why not a European,to prove the Maori Party’s colour blindnes,after all plenty are born in the Pacific Area,or is Tua’s selection to prevent a Pacifica party gathering momentum?

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  67. Elaycee (4,059 comments) says:

    David Tua as a Maori party MP?

    A case of ‘O for Oarsome’… :)

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  68. mandk (682 comments) says:

    Interesting result from the 2013 Census: 0.9% of couples are same sex.

    But reading the likes of Stuff, you would be forgiven for thinking that half the world is homosexual. It’s tiresome.

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  69. wreck1080 (3,522 comments) says:

    A huge misstep from the Reserve bank by imposing lVR’s on new home builds – building new houses is the very solution to slow house price increases so why on earth did the government impose restrictions on new builds?

    And, the RB still needs to address the issue in the regions, many of which have already had prices falls of 20-30% since the peak.

    It makes me question the quality of RB employees.

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  70. Fletch (5,716 comments) says:

    Interesting result from the 2013 Census: 0.9% of couples are same sex

    Can you give a link for that?

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  71. mandk (682 comments) says:

    Here you, go Fletch
    http://www.stats.govt.nz/~/media/Statistics/Census/2013%20Census/data-tables/totals-by-topic/totals-by-topic-tables.xls
    See table 57

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  72. Fletch (5,716 comments) says:

    Is OK, I found the spreadsheet.

    Opposite-sex couple 926,262
    Male couple 3,672
    Female couple 4,656

    Total families with couples 934,593

    Which comes to 0.899 %

    http://www.stats.govt.nz/~/media/Statistics/Census/2013%20Census/data-tables/totals-by-topic/totals-by-topic-tables.xls
    (Under Type of Couple – Table 57 in the speadsheet)

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  73. Fletch (5,716 comments) says:

    mandk, snap!

    Thanks

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  74. Fletch (5,716 comments) says:

    So, we changed the marriage law for 0.9% of the population?
    Probably even less, because many of those couples won’t want to marry.

    Ain’t progressivism lovely

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  75. Nostalgia-NZ (4,683 comments) says:

    More evidence as to the illegal use of other web sites to print defamatory material. Another loss for the hang-bainers.

    ‘http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9498504/Joe-Karam-Defamation-claim-settled.’

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  76. publicwatchdog (1,804 comments) says:

    FYI Kiwibloggers:

    The Queen vs John Archibald Banks CRI 2012 -085 -9093

    Next hearing:

    WHERE: Auckland High Court
    Waterloo Quadrant

    WHEN: Wednesday 11 December 2013

    TIME: 9am

    See decision of J Heath 3 December 2013

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/JOHN-BANKS-R-v-Banks.pdf-J-Heath-3-December-2013.pdf

    Penny Bright

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  77. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Nosty, you seem to know a bit about these things. Do you reckon David Bain will kill again ?

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  78. flipper (3,267 comments) says:

    N-NZ….

    Thanks…. does not look good for the dickhead brigade when a lawyered heavyweight grovels.
    ***
    Kea….
    I will buy a kea gun for you for Christmas. Still trying the smart arse approach bird brain??? As a raptor you will have had much practice. But then if you are referring posums or rabbits, you might be right in respect of DB. :-)

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  79. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    flipper, thanks for caring and I look forward to my Christmas present :)

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  80. nasska (9,476 comments) says:

    Fletch & mandk

    …”So, we changed the marriage law for 0.9% of the population”…..

    And you moralistic fruitloops screamed from the heavens that civilisation, as we know it, would end & the sanctity of marriage was finished because of a law that accommodated less than 1% of NZ.

    You muppets…..Chicken Little is alive & doing well! :)

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  81. big bruv (12,322 comments) says:

    Hey Penny, paid your rates yet?

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  82. Nostradamus (2,753 comments) says:

    We live in a representative democracy – except that Len Brown is too busy to represent the plebs:

    Mayor seeks advice over draft report on affair

    Auckland Mayor Len Brown is taking advice as he ponders the first draft of an Ernst & Young report into a review of any use of council resources during his two-year affair with Bevan Chuang.

    Mr Brown received a copy of the draft on Friday night and after a weekend in Rotorua, began consulting close advisers on Sunday and throughout yesterday [Monday].

    Can Brown explain what work he did for Auckland ratepayers yesterday?

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  83. stephieboy (1,110 comments) says:

    flipper (2,820 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 1:29 pm

    Thank goodness this will have no bearing on the so far failed compensation judicial review.
    Also it does not change the fact that Robin Bain is Innocent.
    Its important to note also that its most often cheaper for media outlets like Fairfax to settle out of court than the expense of a full trial.

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  84. nasska (9,476 comments) says:

    Nostradamus

    On the bright side (no pun intended), the fact that so many important people are engaged in discussions & preparing the whitewash could indicate that the E & Y report may yet bear fruit.

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  85. sbk (299 comments) says:

    freaking hell…” Putin tightened his control over Russia’s media on Monday by dissolving the main state news agency and replacing it with an organization that is to promote Moscow’s image abroad”…to promote “Moscows image”..nah..Putins image,yep…

    word is,he is looking to employ a few western Journos…besides being natural sycophants and staunch leftists,those fuckers are easily fooled and led…

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  86. Nostalgia-NZ (4,683 comments) says:

    flipper.

    The argument goes back years. It’s like the vehicle concept where a message board is a vehicle even to another message board or site, the host is responsible that is why the very orthodox boards in the States won’t allow links and only delayed posting. In this case it’s all the crap by the ‘aunt fanny’ crew in regard, confessions, secret reports and so on which when they could post direct they posted the links. It’s no surprise that Fairfax settled as they had no acceptable argument, if you publish it, or allow it to be published you own it. This will have some impact across the board, if you have a source and publish it believing it to be true you better be sure, reading it in a newspaper or word of mouth isn’t a defence it’s gossip which may be threatening, harassment or defamatory – a standard a reasonable person would accept, but maybe not a parrot. Facebook will end up adhering to this in the not to distant future and I wouldn’t be surprised if they already face writs over encouragement of posters to other posters to suicide and so on.

    Without boring you to tears. Trade Me had a ‘self indemnity’ – effectively a set of ‘rules’ which prevented posters doing certain things. They had to swallow the pill on that one because they are the host, the ‘vehicle.’

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  87. dime (8,746 comments) says:

    Goddam, the lefty talking points this week are tiresome.

    Income inequality (thank god that exists) and Poverty.

    I back myself to flourish no matter what. If you chucked me into the same situation as a lot of these “poor people”, i guarantee id be back to where i am now within 5-7 years. It wouldn’t take bigger & bigger hand outs.

    Id even back myself if you threw me into some shitty situation and said – get out of this. you cant work in a job you’ve done before. needs to be complete career change. no worries. start me off stacking shelves at pak n save. no worries.

    I know it would take a shit load of sacrifice and maybe some rat cunning to bounce back, but id do it.

    So my question – why do we have to give money to people who cant be assed bettering themselves? or the people who are unable because they dont have the brains (some rich people i know are a touch stupid).

    we offer a safety net and a very basic standard of living. people in some countries would kill for that.

    Also, why is it a world ending event if a kid grows up in poverty? as long as the parents aren’t complete losers, the kid will be fed, educated and housed. It may even instill a desire in that kid to achieve when he grows up ala JK.

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  88. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    I back myself to flourish no matter what. If you chucked me into the same situation as a lot of these “poor people”, i guarantee id be back to where i am now within 5-7 years. It wouldn’t take bigger & bigger hand outs.

    Dime,

    Do you back yourself to flourish if you were chucked in that same situation from birth? And if so, why?

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  89. Pete George (21,796 comments) says:

    Ryan, I grew up in what some now regard as poverty. I had all the education opportunities I wanted. I had all the career opportunities I wanted. When I brought up my kids I was pretty hard up at times too, but they have all managed to flourish.

    There are problems that need to be addressed more effectively, but an overstatement of a statistical problem is not smart targeting.

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  90. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Ryan, I grew up in what some now regard as poverty. I had all the education opportunities I wanted. I had all the career opportunities I wanted. When I brought up my kids I was pretty hard up at times too, but they have all managed to flourish.

    Yes, because there is more to the circumstances that influence a child’s outcome than household income. But they’re still circumstances, and they’re still strongly correlated with household income, and Dime’s assertion that he – armed with his own upbringing its consequent attitude and skills – would flourish in poverty while others don’t because they’re… lazy? stupid? at fault or deficient in some other way, is reflective of a broader attitude in our society.

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  91. Fletch (5,716 comments) says:

    And you moralistic fruitloops screamed from the heavens that civilisation, as we know it, would end & the sanctity of marriage was finished because of a law that accommodated less than 1% of NZ

    That doesn’t mean it will not affect all of society – it will.
    Just look at what is happening in the U.S right now.
    A man who wouldn’t bake a cake for a gay wedding because of his religious convictions has been told that he has to or face jail time. You think something similar can’t happen here? Redefining marriage was nothing to do with marriage really. It was more to do with acceptance of gay conduct and practices.

    COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo., December 8, 2013 — On Friday, Denver administrative law judge Robert Spence released a ruling that forces Jack Phillips, the owner of Masterpiece Cakeshop, to either make a wedding cake for two homosexual men who requested one or face fines and possible jail time.

    The facts of the case are not in dispute. On Thursday, July 19, 2012, David Mullins and Charlie Craig entered the shop to enquire about having a cake made. Owner Phillips was there to serve them. When he heard the request, Phillips told them that he didn’t make cakes for same-sex weddings. His expanded his response to say that he would make cakes for their birthdays, showers, sell them cookies, brownies, or whatever — just not a wedding cake.

    Phillips is a devout Christian. He also does not make anything associated with what he views as the pagan rite of Halloween. He lives his life and runs his business according to his beliefs.
    Like the Green family that owns Hobby Lobby, and Elaine Huguenin of Elane Photography in New Mexico, Phillips is not being allowed to do that.

    When the polite refusal was voiced, the intimidation began. According to Phillips, the two both stood and stormed out of the store, one of them by his own admission making an obscene gesture and swearing something about an “(expletive deleted) homophobic bakery.”

    Within minutes, Phillips had a negative phone call. By closing time a little more than an hour later, there were six, some obscene, some rude, according to him. By the next morning he had over 200 negative emails and the shop’s two phone lines were constantly ringing. Someone threatened to come and shoot him. He called the police, but they were unable to trace the call.

    On Saturday, five people picketed the shop, calling in the local news. The picketers told the news that they would return the following Saturday with many more picketers. Next week about 30 picketers showed up — as well as more than 500 supporters.

    All this over a wedding cake, something that should be celebrating a joyous occasion. How did the word spread so quickly? Phone calls, threats, pickets, and eventually a civil suit — why all the hate?

    MORE – http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/red-pill-blue-bill/2013/dec/8/judge-forces-baker-submit-or-face-jail/

    For the liberal/feminist/gay crowd, ‘tolerance’ is a one way street. You have to tolerate their beliefs, but they will not respect or tolerate yours.

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  92. muggins (2,899 comments) says:

    stephieboy
    That judicial review is going nowhere and nor is the compensation claim.
    I reckon Guest’s letter to the Minister has put the kybosh on that claim. I mean how can compensation be paid to someone who repeatedly lied on oath?

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  93. dime (8,746 comments) says:

    “Do you back yourself to flourish if you were chucked in that same situation from birth? And if so, why?”

    I like to think id find mentors. Who would want to stay poor?

    I think the left have low expectations of people. “its ok, you dont know any better, we will give you more hand outs”. Whenever someone like Bennett puts a few limitations/ expectations on free money, the left go apeshit.

    My point was, no one in this country is that poor that they cant get out of it and do well. That being said, maybe its time to grab some of these people by the scruff of the neck and drag them up.

    Or, give them a choice – you can follow all these rules and keep trying to improve yourself. we will give you as much help as needed or shut the fuck up and take what charity you are given. it wont be much but its what you chose.

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  94. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    For example, I went to university on a student loan. My parents’ lack of ability to pay for my university education was not an obstacle to my degree. But I was extremely fortunate to have parents who taught me to value and seek education, and to have parents who made me aware that university was an option, and that it was desirable.

    If I had grown up in a household that never taught those things, regardless of household income, I would be far less successful today.

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  95. dime (8,746 comments) says:

    Dime also racked up a shit ton of student debt.

    At some point, people have to take responsibility. They have to stop wanting to let the state forcibly take from others to give to them.

    Making excuses just leads to more of the same.

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  96. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    I like to think id find mentors. Who would want to stay poor?

    Why on earth would you find mentors? How would you even know what a mentor is?

    And who would want to stay poor? By your logic, huge numbers of people go out of their way to stay poor every day when they could just choose not to be like you would in their situation.

    I think the left have low expectations of people. “its ok, you dont know any better, we will give you more hand outs”. Whenever someone like Bennett puts a few limitations/ expectations on free money, the left go apeshit.

    My point was, no one in this country is that poor that they cant get out of it and do well. That being said, maybe its time to grab some of these people by the scruff of the neck and drag them up.

    Or, give them a choice – you can follow all these rules and keep trying to improve yourself. we will give you as much help as needed or shut the fuck up and take what charity you are given. it wont be much but its what you chose.

    I think both of those attitudes – the one you call left and the one you call right – can be pretty condescending or can be pretty well-meaning, depending on how you take them.

    Condescending left: “You don’t know any better, we’ll give you handouts.”
    Well-meaning left: “It’s not your fault you need help and it’s not through my virtue that I don’t, so I feel a duty to help you like I would like to be helped in the same situation.”
    Condescending right: “Why don’t you just choose to better yourself, lazy?!”
    Well-meaning right: “I respect your autonomy to succeed or fail on your own.”

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  97. Pete George (21,796 comments) says:

    But I was extremely fortunate to have parents who taught me to value and seek education, and to have parents who made me aware that university was an option, and that it was desirable.

    Same.

    A redistribution of wealth won’t do anything to address that in non-aspirational families. In fact it will do the opposite for some.

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  98. dime (8,746 comments) says:

    “Why on earth would you find mentors? How would you even know what a mentor is?”

    these kids go to school, right? its “free”

    “And who would want to stay poor? By your logic, huge numbers of people go out of their way to stay poor every day when they could just choose not to be like you would in their situation.”

    I know a bunch of people who choose to stay poor. see yesterdays rant. Dime grew up in the heart of west auckland. my friends/ acquaintances fell into two groups – the highly successful (professionals or tradies) and the lazy ones. I didnt hang out with stupid people. They poor chose to be poor because they dont want to work. they dont go to job interviews, they dont study. they sleep in, watch tv and drink/smoke. if thats not CHOOSING to be poor then i dont know what is. they are all able bodied. have a half decent IQ..

    at the risk of sounding like Shearer. the girls i know, 2 days younger than me. has NEVER worked. on the DPB. shes now “forced” to work by paula and its the kick in the ass she needed. huge self esteem boost. i dont know how long it will last, hopefully forever. but she would never have found a job unless she was forced into looking.

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  99. Manolo (12,616 comments) says:

    Upstaging the Maori.
    Wait until the impartial/unbiased Waitangi Tribunal casts an opinion: http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8768640/canada-claims-larger-part-of-atlantic

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  100. nasska (9,476 comments) says:

    Fletch

    I’m not a lawyer & I’m not American so I am dependant on experts advice:

    In the instance of the baker, he is not legally permitted to refuse service because of his prejudices. This link explains the position. http://www.legalzoom.com/us-law/equal-rights/right-refuse-service

    Note that if his prejudice of choice was based on a potential customer’s race he would find himself in the same boat. For all that the man is a fool as all he had to say was that he was too busy & the matter would never have arisen. He’s paying for his grandstanding.

    If you were refused service at a restaurant or motel on the basis that you are a moralistic nut & a bible basher you would be put out about it & fairly so.

    What’s the difference?

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  101. dime (8,746 comments) says:

    Ryan – what is your solution to this “poverty crisis”?

    Realistic, not some pie in the sky “green jobs” solution.. if you have one

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  102. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    I’m not arguing for bigger benefits. I’m just calling out that one idea, that “if I was in their situation I would just choose to better myself”. I hear it all the time, explicitly and implicitly. Their situation stretches back to birth. Your situation stretches back to birth. Everyone’s does.

    You can’t talk about what you’d choose to do in people’s shoes without addressing what it would be like to have grown their feet.

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  103. dime (8,746 comments) says:

    Ryan – so you have no solution? no thoughts on how you would make it better? just everlasting empathy..

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  104. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Ryan – what is your solution to this “poverty crisis”?

    Realistic, not some pie in the sky “green jobs” solution.. if you have one

    A complete overthrow of… Oh, that’s probably pie in the sky.

    I don’t know. I’ll think about it. I just know that pointing at people and saying, “YOU SHOULD HAVE TRIED HARDER” isn’t going to work, and I agree that a whole segment of society dependent on the apparatus of the state for food and shelter isn’t a long-term solution.

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  105. Reid (15,505 comments) says:

    If I had grown up in a household that never taught those things, regardless of household income, I would be far less successful today.

    Yes and that’s the key Ryan. Regardless of household income, a child can grow up with those attitudes in particular the simple expectation that if they want to go to university, they can, and it doesn’t matter if you live in St Heliers or in a tin shack on family land.

    But the left politicians never say that, do that. They never say that the solution is in those attitudes and that those attitudes are free and can be had without monetary cost, do they. No. Instead, they pretend that the poor are victims of some nameless meanies these days labelled ‘rich pricks’ who somehow oppress them and that they, the politicians, will valiantly fight the battle on behalf of the poor, because they really care, and they’re the only ones who do.

    This is the main reason why I’ve never supported the left and never will. That despite the fact there are many genuinely caring people in that spectrum, the political leaders without exception feed their voters lies which will never in a million years free them, but will merely enslave them. And I just can’t bring myself to vote for that deception.

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  106. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Ryan – so you have no solution? no thoughts on how you would make it better? just everlasting empathy..

    Jesus, dude, I was replying to your question – give me more than 120 seconds to answer, huh?

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  107. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Yes and that’s the key Ryan. Regardless of household income, a child can grow up with those attitudes in particular the simple expectation that if they want to go to university, they can, and it doesn’t matter if you live in St Heliers or in a tin shack on family land.

    But the left politicians never say that, do that. They never say that the solution is in those attitudes and that those attitudes are free, without cost, do they. No. Instead, they pretend that the poor are victims of some nameless meanies called ‘rich pricks’ who somehow oppress them and that they, the politicians, will valiantly fight the battle on behalf of the poor, because they really care, and they’re the only ones who do.

    This is the main reason why I’ve never supported the left and never will. That despite the fact there are many genuinely caring people in that spectrum, the political leaders without exception feed their voters lies which will never in a million years free them, but will merely enslave them. And I just can’t bring myself to vote for that deception.

    Reid, if those attitudes are free, without cost, what would you do tomorrow to impart those attitudes into people without any expense of budget?

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  108. dime (8,746 comments) says:

    “Jesus, dude, I was replying to your question – give me more than 120 seconds to answer, huh?”

    I thought your 2:56 was an attempt at an answer.

    So. take the group of westies i know who cant be fucked getting out of bed. no point enforcing rules to get them to do something with their lives? just leave em, status quo? enjoy your afternnon beer in the sun guys.

    maybe we could hug them and just keep saying “its not your fault” til they cry. :P

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  109. big bruv (12,322 comments) says:

    “Their situation stretches back to birth. Your situation stretches back to birth. Everyone’s does.”

    Complete and utter bullshit!.

    Whilst I should only speak for myself I know that Dime will not mind it when I say that we are both living proof that one does not have to be a product of ones environment. In fact being scum is a choice, a choice made by lazy lowlife who cannot be bothered getting off their backsides.

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  110. Reid (15,505 comments) says:

    Reid, if those attitudes are free, without cost, what would you do tomorrow to impart those attitudes into people without any expense of budget?

    Poor wording Ryan, I meant free without monetary cost to the holders of those attitudes in that its all in their minds. Instilling them through education has significant cost, because it means firstly changing the incorrect attitudes then instilling the correct.

    And to me, that cost is fine, because we’re talking about changing the social welfare paradigm that costs us many billions a year. We’re talking about eliminating that. Making it a mere trickle from the welfare torrent it now is.

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  111. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    So. take the group of westies i know who cant be fucked getting out of bed. no point enforcing rules to get them to do something with their lives? just leave em, status quo? enjoy your afternnon beer in the sun guys.

    maybe we could hug them and just keep saying “its not your fault” til they cry.

    Maybe neither. Or maybe it’s maths. Let’s call one of your Westies “Nigel”.

    What’s the average lifetime cost of…

    1. Changing Nigel’s attitude from his current one to the one you think he should have.
    2. Maintaining Nigel’s benefit till he dies.
    3. Ensuring a child grows up with the right kind of attitude instead of becoming another Nigel.
    4. Cutting off Nigel’s benefit entirely.

    I’m not asking these questions because I know the answers to them. (I don’t.) I’m asking them because I think they’re relevant to any proposed solution.

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  112. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Complete and utter bullshit!.

    Whilst I should only speak for myself I know that Dime will not mind it when I say that we are both living proof that one does not have to be a product of ones environment. In fact being scum is a choice, a choice made by lazy lowlife who cannot be bothered getting off their backsides.

    Why did you choose not to be scum, Big Bruv?

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  113. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Poor wording Ryan, I meant free without monetary cost to the holders of those attitudes in that its all in their minds. Instilling them through education has significant cost, because it means firstly changing the incorrect attitudes then instilling the correct.

    And to me, that cost is fine, because we’re talking about changing the social welfare paradigm that costs us many billions a year. We’re talking about eliminating that. Making it a mere trickle from the welfare torrent it now is.

    Fair enough, Reid. I’m very much in favour of the idea that the best use of state spending is to put the state out of business.

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  114. Fletch (5,716 comments) says:

    nasska, all the same, would you kick up a stink about it, call people to protest outside his bakery, send threatening emails and make threatening phone calls? The baker said he won’t bake anything to do with Haloween either, but I don’t see witches kicking up a stink about it.

    As the owner of his business, it’s up to him whom he gives service to or not, not the government.

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  115. nickb (3,629 comments) says:

    maybe we could hug them and just keep saying “its not your fault” til they cry. :P

    I’m not volunteering to hug your bogan unemployed UFC watching friends dime.

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  116. dime (8,746 comments) says:

    “What’s the average lifetime cost of…

    1. Changing Nigel’s attitude from his current one to the one you think he should have.
    2. Maintaining Nigel’s benefit till he dies.”

    Lets see…

    Say Nigel is pulling $250 a week. Hes 35. Lives til hes 80. Thats $585,000 in todays money. $585,000 taken by force off another kiwi to keep him at home.

    Lets say hes forced to train, work, do something with his life.

    He gets a job paying minimum wage. Thats about 28k a year? Probably pays about 4k in tax? works til hes 65. pays 120k in PAYE until that point. Then claims 195k in super.

    So hes still a drain on society in real terms of about 75k.. BUT he will have been productive to his employer..

    so, say working from today onward saves 500k.. now lets multiply that by say 25,000 sacks of shit.

    12.5 billion saved over the next 30 years.. and thats being very very generous in the sacks of shit dept.

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  117. Manolo (12,616 comments) says:

    The do-gooders of this world, and we’re never short of them, want to solve the “poverty” problem by throwing money away.

    I cannot but agree with bruv’s opinion/comment on lazy people.

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  118. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Lets say hes forced to train, work, do something with his life.

    Hold up. You say that like it’s a switch you can flick somewhere. This forcing is done by a volunteer who costs nothing in our budget? And the training he receives is training from volunteers at a charity organisation of some sort?

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  119. dime (8,746 comments) says:

    How about this system.

    Lets tax people based on how they vote :)

    Mana/ Greens – anything more than a few loaves of bread a week goes to the state

    Labour – a top tax rate of 60% kicking in at say.. 60k (rich pricks)

    National – a top tax rate of 25% kicking in at say.. 80k

    ACT – 15% flat tax

    That way, lefties can put their money where their mouth is :)

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  120. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    I cannot but agree with bruv’s opinion of lazy people.

    Then perhaps you can also answer the question I asked him.

    Did you choose not to be lazy, Manolo? And if so, why?

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  121. Rhodie (28 comments) says:

    Have our politicians got nothing better to do than give prolonged speeches of sympathy to a murderer and a terrorist?

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  122. dime (8,746 comments) says:

    “Hold up. You say that like it’s a switch you can flick somewhere. This forcing is done by a volunteer who costs nothing in our budget? And the training he receives is training from volunteers at a charity organisation of some sort?”

    student loans. interest free. in a course every day or no bene

    once course is over, he can go to a room with other job seekers and be supervised as though he was a 3 year old while he looks for a job. failure to show = no bene

    and yes, im happy t build a shit load of prisons to house these winners if they wont comply.

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  123. calendar girl (1,108 comments) says:

    Nostradamus @ 2:02 -”Can Brown explain what work he did for Auckland ratepayers yesterday?”

    Of course he can. He spent all day working assiduously with his disinterested advisers to protect Auckland City from falling into the clutches of a new Mayor who – inevitably – would be less intelligent, less industrious and less handsome than himself. People don’t seem to realise the dangers that the City faces. In a worst-case scenario it could find itself with a Mayor who is fully committed to ensuring the effectiveness of Council spending, minimising both the rates burden and the debt burden, and acting with integrity in his/her leadership role and personal life.

    Ryan Sproull @ 2:25: “Do you back yourself to flourish if you were chucked in that same situation from birth? And if so, why?”

    I understand what you’re driving at, but don’t underestimate the influence of truly inspirational teachers as well. My fear is that they are a rarer breed than they were previously – for a number of reasons – but they are still out there. Would that the stranglehold exercised on the education sector by Government and the teaching unions could be weakened to allow those great teachers to flourish and be emulated.

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  124. Reid (15,505 comments) says:

    A lot of the people we’re talking about are in a state of learned helplessness. They say that unemployment brings about the 3-D’s: Divorce, Depression, Debt.

    And it does. Lots of people simply give up because they’ve been turned down time after time after time and that attacks your sense of self-worth. I’d challenge those of us who’ve worked all our lives in continuous employment to walk a mile in their shoes, living on a few hundy, for six months, and see what we become after that time. And remember, it’s easier for us to do that because we know we’re living an experiment and once its over we get back to $100k+. But these people don’t have that so they think, they come to believe, that they have no future.

    That’s why they get a sense of what we see as entitlement, because to them, it’s a pittance and why shouldn’t we who think nothing of putting on our thousand dollar suits begrudge paying them that?

    I’m not saying it’s right, I’m saying that’s what it is. That is their reality. And you can argue against it all you like from a judgemental perspective, but it doesn’t change it. It’s still their reality.

    don’t underestimate the influence of truly inspirational teachers as well

    Even the most inspirational teachers in the country fail in the face of parental neglect Judith. Parents are the key. They always have been.

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  125. wikiriwhis business (3,276 comments) says:

    The master builders’ evidence that the lending limits were putting thousands of new builds at risk blew a hole in the Government’s policy of trying to increase housing supply,” he said.

    Ad Feedback
    “The mystery in all of this is why the Government didn’t properly think through LVRs in the first place.”

    RBNZ exempts new builds from LVR rules

    The Government had failed to consider the effect of the policy on new builds, the fact it would lock first home buyers out of the market, or that it would depress already stagnant house prices in many parts of regional New Zealand, he said.

    BNZ chief economist Tony Alexander said the decision showed “lobbying works” but that it would not have much of an impact.

    “The Master Builders Federation had the report out last week showing us what they considered to be a big impact, so the message to anybody else wanting an exemption from the rules is increase your research [and] step up your lobbying efforts, basically,” Alexander said.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/9498419/RBNZ-exempts-new-builds-from-LVR-rules

    National knew what they were doing though it looked like they didn’t. This was an obvious conspiracy agenda that blew up in National’s face because you can’t play with professionals and potentially billions of dollars.

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  126. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    Can’t be bothered reading back, but in case this hasn’t been posted,

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9498504/Joe-Karam-Defamation-claim-settled

    Time people learned the difference between defamation and honest opinion… clearly there is someone else about to learn that lesson too.

    By time the judicial review goes through, which is proceeding well according to the last report – I suspect there will be a few people, namely JFRB, that will get the message that lies, based on lies and added to with further lies, is not the way to go about things.

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  127. nasska (9,476 comments) says:

    Fletch

    ….”As the owner of his business, it’s up to him whom he gives service to or not, not the government.”….

    Then it’s the government he should be directing his protest at…..not potential customers.

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  128. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    and yes, im happy t build a shit load of prisons to house these winners if they wont comply.

    WITH MY MONEY?!

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  129. Manolo (12,616 comments) says:

    Judith, as a Bainite, do you also believe in the Tooth Fairy? :-)

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  130. wikiriwhis business (3,276 comments) says:

    ‘ Lots of people simply give up because they’ve been turned down time after time after time and that attacks your sense of self-worth. ”

    These are the honest spirited people Kiwi Bloggers refuse to recognise because these down trodden hard workers destroy the perfect society Kiwi Bloggers would have us believe we’re in. Esp when National is in. Just perpetuating fantasy propaganda.

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  131. nasska (9,476 comments) says:

    Reid @ 3.45pm

    Well put….that’s exactly what happens until a powerful circuit breaker occurs & they never occur when Labour is at the helm.

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  132. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ Manolo (11,522 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 3:49 pm

    As a person that obviously lives in some sort of environment where everyone thinks exactly the same as you do, are you scared of the big wide world and people with opinions that differ from yours?

    What’s it like being so scared of people that don’t believe in the same things that you do, that you feel you need to abuse them for it all the time?

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  133. dime (8,746 comments) says:

    “WITH MY MONEY?!”

    yeah but they will be cheap. think tents n razor wire :) will end up being cheaper than paying the bene

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  134. wikiriwhis business (3,276 comments) says:

    Apology to Joe Karam

    Fairfax New Zealand Limited and Mr Karam have agreed to settle, on a confidential basis, defamation claims filed by Mr Karam in the High Court in 2010.

    The settlement relates to articles published in December 2009 on the online news site Stuff.

    The articles in question drew attention to private websites (not controlled by Fairfax). Those websites contained serious attacks on Mr Karam’s integrity, honesty, and general character. Those attacks were not initiated by Fairfax.

    Fairfax accepts unreservedly that the comments made about Mr Karam were untrue and caused him and his family distress and damage. Fairfax accepts that Mr Karam worked tirelessly and at considerable personal cost and sacrifice in his involvement in the David Bain jury trial and that his work in this area has not been motivated by self-interest.

    For these reasons Fairfax retracts the defamatory inferences which arise from the references to the websites and unreservedly apologises to Mr Karam

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9498504/Apology-to-Joe-Karam

    Bain is innocent.

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  135. dime (8,746 comments) says:

    “‘ Lots of people simply give up because they’ve been turned down time after time after time and that attacks your sense of self-worth. ””

    so the question becomes – why? whats wrong with them? are they qualified for the jobs they seek? will they lower themselves enough to work at burger king?

    dont people on the bene have case workers?

    “ive lost the will to care. no one will employ me blah blah”

    surely the case worker can suggest a path to turn it around. we have already established its not hard to go from “poverty” to moderate success.

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  136. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    eah but they will be cheap. think tents n razor wire will end up being cheaper than paying the bene

    Interesting. And presumably their kids are taken from them and assigned to non-”tents n razor wire” accommodation?

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  137. Reid (15,505 comments) says:

    they never occur when Labour is at the helm.

    No. That’s the riddle inside the mystery wrapped in the enigma isn’t it nasska.

    That the very people who claim to care, further to have an exclusive patent on such, somehow inexplicably seem always to manage during their administrations not to free people but rather to enslave more. Anyone would think they do it on purpose.

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  138. wikiriwhis business (3,276 comments) says:

    Man pleads guilty in Census case

    Thomas Martin refused to complete his Census forms because he believes the Government has enough private information about him.

    But he reluctantly filled out the 2013 Census forms today to try to avoid a $500 fine.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9499242/Man-pleads-guilty-in-Census-case

    so why are people fined for not filling in the census but not for not enrolling. The govt is simply not interested if you didn’t enroll to vote but they got to have their spy database complete!!

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  139. Reid (15,505 comments) says:

    so the question becomes – why? whats wrong with them? are they qualified for the jobs they seek? will they lower themselves enough to work at burger king?

    Because they didn’t get the education they needed dime. That’s 99% of the reason. And the education they need is not being told how to masturbate before they hit puberty but that they are a capable creature full of potential. And that message comes from the parents, not the teachers.

    And its those parents who need to change, no-one else. And nothing will change until that happens.

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  140. dime (8,746 comments) says:

    “Interesting. And presumably their kids are taken from them and assigned to non-”tents n razor wire” accommodation?”

    lets start with 25,000 sacks of shit that dont have kids. go from there.

    i wonder how many are stupid enough to allow their benefit to be cut for more than a week or so. i suspect it would be less than what you think.

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  141. Pete George (21,796 comments) says:

    A sudden spike in Len Brown to resign stock from .04 to over .50 in the last half hour. Fluctuating a lot though.

    https://www.ipredict.co.nz/app.php?do=contract_detail&contract=BROWN.RESIGN.1JAN14

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  142. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    And its those parents who need to change, no-one else. And nothing will change until that happens.

    And how will the parents be changed?

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  143. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    lets start with 25,000 sacks of shit that dont have kids. go from there.

    i wonder how many are stupid enough to allow their benefit to be cut for more than a week or so. i suspect it would be less than what you think.

    You didn’t want pie in the sky ideas from me.

    I submit to you that tents/razor-wire concentration camps are a “pie in the sky” solution.

    People will never go for it, and the international repercussions would be…

    Costly.

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  144. wikiriwhis business (3,276 comments) says:

    Boom times ahead for construction

    New Zealand is on the brink of the biggest construction boom in 40 years, fuelled by demand for housing in Auckland and the rebuild in Canterbury, a new report says.

    Other busy regions will be Waikato, Bay of Plenty and Wellington, the National Construction Pipeline report says.

    It points to an unprecedented level of building over the next five years and at least 10 per cent yearly growth for four years, peaking in 2016, when nearly $32 billion of construction activity is predicted

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9499197/Boom-times-ahead-for-construction

    And watch the building indusry fly in Asians to fill jobs .

    dime, if you will be able to contradict me I will happily agree with your every utterance for a month

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  145. dime (8,746 comments) says:

    ryan – im taking the piss. the standard line from the left is – if you cut benefits people will commit crime.

    personally, i think that shows they have a lower opinion of people on benes than i do.

    most comply with the rules around their charity payments.

    i say, harsher rules. carrot and stick approach.

    if a dude is 35, you cant blame his upbringing for every bad decision he makes. these people have tv’s.

    look at the riots in the middle east – people have access to tv and internet etc they can see what a better life looks like.

    some/ a lot just need a kick in the ass to get them going.

    i get you have empathy and you appreciate what your parents did for you, but you dont have to be a giant pussy to show that appreciation.

    heres an idea – lets start churning out reality tv shows. just show after show of people being helped/ taught how to feed their kids breaky etc maybe it will start to sink in!

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  146. dime (8,746 comments) says:

    wiki – i dont think i could ever sway you from your current state/ beliefs.

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  147. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    Regarding the rent issue.

    With so many people looking for rent, it is competitive.

    In a person’s rental history, credit rating etc didn’t matter too much – there were more rentals than clients but now it does matter. References, credit checks, and even police checks have been requested in some cases.

    Maybe some of these people that can’t get a house to rent have a ‘history’ that makes them not a good proposition?

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  148. wikiriwhis business (3,276 comments) says:

    ‘lets start churning out reality tv shows.’

    I like it. They did this with an obese pom family and it worked wonders for them. No PC. you got their down sides and good sides and progress was made.

    Should be done here with several unemployed people/families and see what is really honestly possible!

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  149. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ dime (7,897 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 4:15 pm
    ryan – im taking the piss. the standard line from the left is – if you cut benefits people will commit crime.

    Actually there is a slight bit of truth to that based on historical figures that crime figures are reflected by unemployment (a bit), however, it is only in the middle road ‘bad’, when things get really bad, crime rates fall dramatically, and when they turn to shyte (like a war) crime is virtually non-existent.

    I’d help things out by starting a war, but I really can’t be bothered. ;-)

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  150. wikiriwhis business (3,276 comments) says:

    ‘wiki – i dont think i could ever sway you from your current state/ beliefs’

    you’d be surprised how much I’d agree with you over a coffee actually.

    I have friends/colleagues in a broad sweep right across society and listen to every aspect and attitude of society.

    I will though agree that my tendencies are left though I understand fiscal conservatism.

    I just think we had the Nat/Lab paradigm far too long.

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  151. wikiriwhis business (3,276 comments) says:

    ‘and when they turn to shyte (like a war) crime is virtually non-existent.’

    Doesn’t the state deal with mass unemployment by war and therefore legal culling.

    That’s what Vietnam was.

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  152. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    ryan – im taking the piss. the standard line from the left is – if you cut benefits people will commit crime.

    personally, i think that shows they have a lower opinion of people on benes than i do.

    most comply with the rules around their charity payments.

    i say, harsher rules. carrot and stick approach.

    if a dude is 35, you cant blame his upbringing for every bad decision he makes. these people have tv’s.

    look at the riots in the middle east – people have access to tv and internet etc they can see what a better life looks like.

    some/ a lot just need a kick in the ass to get them going.

    i get you have empathy and you appreciate what your parents did for you, but you dont have to be a giant pussy to show that appreciation.

    heres an idea – lets start churning out reality tv shows. just show after show of people being helped/ taught how to feed their kids breaky etc maybe it will start to sink in!

    I’m actually not interested in whether or not I’m a giant pussy, here, Dime. I’m interested in what is a practical solution to an identified problem.

    Your proposed answer is to throw taxpayer money into forcing people to train, work and do something with their life. And at some point you started taking the piss, but I’m not sure if that was before or after you said you were happy to throw taxpayer money at prisons for the people who didn’t comply.

    Per person, prisons are more expensive than benefits, so you’re banking on the idea that enough people will take the money you throw at training people and forcing them to work that it will outweigh the costs of putting the others into newly built and maintained prisons.

    You might be right, though I’m not sure creating a new subset of prisoners is the long-term solution we’re after here. Presumably they’ll just be a portion of our population to who go prison and stop costing us money when they die of old age, or we throw money at training them and forcing them to work when they’re ready to leave prison? I guess.

    In this case it seems like prison is just a very very expensive benefit.

    I’m not sure I want you in charge of my tax dollars. So far you’re giving people free education (sorry, interest-free loans), employing people to force them to learn, spending even more money on housing the people in prisons if they don’t accept your free education, and presumably feeding and housing them the people who do accept your training offer.

    Throwing money at TV shows saturating people with positive messages and examples about feeding and clothing their kids is an interesting idea, but they would have to get the right people’s attention AND achieve our stated objective of changing their attitudes and behaviour, and keep in mind that taxpayer money would be trying to create products in direct competition with all of the other TV shows whose goal is to get viewers and don’t even have to worry about changing attitudes as well!

    This is quite a quandary.

    Have we confirmed that telling people to feel bad for being lazy doesn’t work? I don’t to seem… well… averse to hard work… but all of this thinking things through is a lot of hard work, and it seems so much easier to just point my finger at poor people and tell them they should have made good choices like I did.

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  153. wikiriwhis business (3,276 comments) says:

    Govt’s competition check sparks accusations

    Labour is accusing National of rushing to the aid of big business, after Finance Minister Bill English signalled a health check of competition regulation.

    In an interview with Fairfax published yesterday, English said New Zealand’s regulatory regime will be placed under internal scrutiny following a period where some investors voiced concerns about the investment environment.

    Admitting that a series of “disconnected” events risked creating a perception that New Zealand was an unsafe place to invest, he said there would be a “check” of whether regulatory settings were up to standard.

    “We’ve got to manage our way through a period where some investors think anything could happen,” English said.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9498627/Govts-competition-check-sparks-accusations

    Sounds like an honourable initiative to me.

    The fan will be hit if Anodarko stuffs up in teh drilling process and creates an eco disaster.

    If that does happen I’m afraid some one will simply ram into parliament on a shooting spree of govt ministers.

    No doubt no govt minister will be found in parliament fearful of public retribution.

    Imagine a whole caucus doing a Len Brown disappearing act!

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  154. Reid (15,505 comments) says:

    And how will the parents be changed?

    The thing that’s missing in the training they’re being given to date are lessons in how life really works. Which is not the same as what they’ve been told.

    Somehow the following truths need to be communicated:

    They are capable people, capable of anything. The only thing stopping them doing anything is themselves.

    Achieving anything worthwhile requires sacrifice and self-discipline. That means stopping enervating habits from drinking, smoking, drugs, computer games and petty crime and starting things like reading. Reading to their kids, reading to themselves.

    The foundation of a family is love. This doesn’t just mean endless hugs and cuddles, it also means for example teaching your kids that they can’t go out and play until they’ve done their homework and you’ve checked it. And teaching your kids that they can’t play computer games for more than x hours a week and not at all until they’ve done their chores.

    And all kinds of things like that, are all missing from the “life skills” courses offered today.

    As others have said, ditching the PC bollocks is the start of the path to success. Another start is that none of this is optional. A lot of parents aren’t going to want to do this voluntarily, especially once they discover it’s going to be damn hard work at least until the changes have embedded themselves and their former enervating life is but a distant and unpleasant memory. So there has to be some compulsion. And the examples I’ve given aren’t exhaustive and they’re not necessarily what should happen, but something along those lines, is what needs to happen.

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  155. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Fair enough, Reid. I’d like to see something along those lines trialled and evaluated.

    It’s tricky to tell parents that they need to be told by the government how to parent, though, isn’t it?

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  156. Reid (15,505 comments) says:

    It’s tricky to tell parents that they need to be told by the government how to parent, though, isn’t it?

    Not if you explain to them that despite one political side insisting that they’ll ride in on a white charger to save them, this will never happen and their utter wretchedness will continue their whole lives and for their children’s lives as well, unless and until they get with this particular program.

    The key in this is the women. Even the most uneducated, angry woman does not want to see her grandchildren continue in despair. And women have a lot of power in the house. They’re also the communicators of culture and language by virtue of their DNA, that’s why they’re the key.

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  157. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    It is absolutely pointless trying to teach people that are not good parent’s how to do the job. They would have learned from their parent’s and so on.

    If we really want to make a difference then we need to work on the children that will one day be parents. Just simple basic human development 101 – what it takes to bring up a self-sufficient, healthy child – would make a hell of a difference to the future. For now all we can do is fill the gaps – no one can tell an existing parent to do something which seems foreign to them.

    Look at the stink over the smacking bill – and yet that was needed because some parent’s seriously do not know the difference between a corrective smack and a ‘knock you flying thump’.

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  158. dime (8,746 comments) says:

    Ryan – on iPad so will be short.

    Dime is for free education. Not free tertiary.

    I chucked in the words interest free cause god forbid we roll that back. Shows just how “fair” we are.

    Prison – as I stated. The left tell us if we cut benes those people become crims. I say bullshit. Some will, I’ll pay to house them.

    People already have case workers. They can babysit the lazy fuckers who need to be treated like a three yr old.

    Riddle me this – how come some kids with shit parents and no money end up doing good? You make it sound like an impossibility.

    I’d also like to see the been decrease for every year you’re on it. Eventually it will just be too unpalatable to choose the sit at home and drink option.

    Finally, I challenge you to show me one person of sound mind who can’t find a job after five years of looking. Impossible I say.

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  159. Reid (15,505 comments) says:

    Finally, I challenge you to show me one person of sound mind who can’t find a job after five years of looking. Impossible I say.

    I challenge you to find me one person of working age who is of sound mind after five years of not working.

    It is absolutely pointless trying to teach people that are not good parent’s how to do the job. They would have learned from their parent’s and so on.

    If we really want to make a difference then we need to work on the children that will one day be parents.

    Judith, children learn parenting from their parents. You can’t teach children how to be good parents if they come home everyday to lousy parents. It’s just not possible.

    No-one is saying it’s easy teaching the parents because their habits are very entrenched now. But the alternative is to keep doing what we’ve been doing, and expecting different results. Isn’t it.

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  160. Rowan (1,726 comments) says:

    Stephie @ 2.04

    “Also it does not change the fact that Robin Bain is Innocent.”

    Do you have any proof of that or is it just your core belief?

    Nope on your reasoning its just as likely that the bains were killed by the goat.
    To state your belief as factual is incredibly arrogant, but probably a prerequisite of JFRB and the CS loons.

    Another lesson for KP to learn with regards to online defamation of Karam, he has well in truly cooked his own goose and dug his own grave!

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  161. Rowan (1,726 comments) says:

    Judith @ 3.46

    These idiots are incapable of learning anything, you’d have more luck trying to teach a 5 year old, they “know” they are right, as the conclusion is predetermined, anyone who can’t see it this way is ‘stupid’
    When you have your ‘core belief’, evidence is just an irrelevant distraction.

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  162. muggins (2,899 comments) says:

    I see Judith is lying again.
    Can’t be bothered looking back, she says. Bulls**t.
    She was well aware the first link to that news item didn’t work so she posted it again.
    As for Rowan,
    Well if he hasn’t worked out by now that David Bain murdered his family by shooting all of them in the head then he never will.

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  163. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Riddle me this – how come some kids with shit parents and no money end up doing good? You make it sound like an impossibility.

    It’s not impossible, it’s just statistically far less likely, and when it occurs there is a reason for it.

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  164. Akaroa (487 comments) says:

    Re Fletch and Nasska, subject homophobic baker and the flak he has caught since refusing to bake for a homosexual ‘wedding’.

    Hi, (if I can intrude). If I was that baker and started to get flak in the way that he did, then I’d say to the ‘customers’, ‘OK guys, I’ll bake you a wedding cake. No need to get shirty about it!”

    Then I’d bake them a cake of a type such as has never been seen, loading it with ingredients that my intimate knowledge of cake constituents told me would be relatively bland to the taste, but of which the after effects would be gastronomically explosive ensuring that the entire ‘wedding night’ was spent by both parties in the smallest room in the house in defecation and regurgitation..

    And then I’d say to them, ‘Really sorry about that, guys, here’s your money back’

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  165. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:
    Finally, I challenge you to show me one person of sound mind who can’t find a job after five years of looking. Impossible I say.

    I challenge you to find me one person of working age who is of sound mind after five years of not working.

    Very nicely put, Reid.

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  166. flipper (3,267 comments) says:

    For your sake muggins, I plead with you to disregard your sobriquet and, for once in your life, act like a rational being.

    The more you fantasise, and worse, the more you reinforce the belief that you are nuts… in fact a skullnut, as I described idiot Minto supporters.

    When pigs or goats start flying you stupid prick, you might be proven correct. Until then STFU.

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  167. Dirty Rat (376 comments) says:

    I know I was giving Penny grief about her small election sign stuck on a fence at the corner of Botany and Union Road a month ago…..but can someone tell Denise Krum to get rid of that huge fucking large monstrosity on the Panmure- Ellerslie Highway on the Great South Road approach to the on ramp ?

    That parody website was complaining about the Mayor still having his up a week after the election…but this is just taking the piss

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  168. Rowan (1,726 comments) says:

    Again here comes motormouth with her usual dollop of bullshit surprise surprise
    Don’t let the facts get in the way of your fantasy story muggy.
    You are one serial liar and bullshit artist.

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  169. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ Rowan (1,264 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 5:18 pm

    Wow you must be psychic! You mention the word idiot and up the biggest one pops, complete with his crystal ball. Must be really sad for the deluded one that no one wants to discuss the only topic he can, with him anymore.

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  170. dime (8,746 comments) says:

    “It’s not impossible, it’s just statistically far less likely, and when it occurs there is a reason for it.”

    Well, the ones I know simply can’t be fucked working.

    I don’t know how much clearer I can put it. They have no intention of job hunting. Zero. None. They just wanna play music and drink.

    There are no underlying circumstances. I know the parents. I know how they were raised. They still just don’t wanna work. In this country, turns out you don’t have to.

    Happy to help people who wants to help themselves. Over dishing it out and getting nothing in return.

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  171. Rowan (1,726 comments) says:

    Judith
    True, you’d have to wonder if there is anything else in her pathetic existence other than preaching to the world her absolute belief in DBs ‘guilt’

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  172. publicwatchdog (1,804 comments) says:

    In solidarity with the millions of black South Africans who are now worse off under the ANC’s neo-liberal ‘economic apartheid’ reforms – why I would NOT attend Nelson Mandela’s funeral.

    ANTI-APARTHEID BACKGROUND:

    In 1972, I joined the Halt All Racist Tours movement, in my 7th form year as an 18 year old.

    In 1981, I was one of twelve anti-apartheid activists elected to the ‘demonstration committee’ of the MOST (Mobilisation to Stop the Tour) – tasked with organising protests in Auckland against the Springbok Tour.

    The purpose of the protests, was to ‘stretch the thin blue line’ and through non-violent civil disobedience, make the 1981 Springbok Tour ‘un-policeable’, so it would be called off.

    This was in solidarity with millions of black South Africans, who not only did not have the same civil and political human rights as the white minority, but were also being denied basic economic, social and cultural rights.

    (The effectiveness of the sports boycott in putting pressure on the apartheid regime, is explained here:
    Desmond Tutu: Sports boycott crucial to ending apartheid

    http://www.tamilguardian.com/article.asp?articleid=3093 )

    However, the purpose of these anti-Springbok Tour protests, in calling for an end to apartheid, was not for the black South African majority to end up being worse off.

    But that is exactly what has happened in ‘post-apartheid’ South Africa.

    Why?

    Because the ANC government, elected in 1994, broke their promises, effectively did a 180 degree ‘U turn’ and introduced the same neo-liberal ‘Rogernomics’ reforms, without consultation or mandate as did the 1984 – 1987 Labour Government here in New Zealand.

    Sorry to be the one to ‘blow the whistle’ and ‘pop the hot air balloon’, but this wave of neo-liberal reforms started on Nelson Mandela’s watch, when he was President of South Africa from 1994 – 1999.

    Nelson Mandela supported privatisation, and it started on ‘his watch’.

    http://dspace.nwu.ac.za/bitstream/handle/10394/6332/No_42(1997)_Meyer_MJ.pdf?sequence=1

    PRIVATISING SOUTH AFRICA BY DICTUM: A REVIEW
    Michael J. Meyer
    (Department of Development Studies, University of North West)

    1. Introduction

    Mindful of the experience in the Third World in general, and Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA)in particular, where in some instances the privatisation of state assets was turned into a farce because of corruption, nepotism patronage and insider dealing, in South Africa (SA) the Congress of South African Trade Unions (COSATU) insisted from the outset that the privatisation process is shrouded in secrecy and should be made transparent.

    As a consequence COSATU objected to the African National Congress’s (ANC) adoption of a privatisation policy at its December 1994 Conference, which was endorsed without any form of consultation with the labour movement -the ANC’s strongest social partner.’ In order to forestall any unilateral action on the part of the ANC the labour movement insisted on participation and transparency, calling on the ANC to be accountable, not only to its allies but also the masses on any decision taken
    on the issue of privatisation.

    1 COSATU 6th National Congress: 16-19 September 1997, Book 4, Resolutions, Discussion
    Documents (1997), p. 33.

    Over and above the intense hostility and pressure, particularly from COSATU, which government faces on restructuring and privatisation, President Mandela intractably remarked, that:

    “Privatisation is the fundamental policy of the ANC, and is going to be implemented …Just because we [government and COSATU] have a working relationship, and they [COSATU] helped put us in power, does not mean that we are happy with everything they say.’ 49

    49 Sunday Times, 26 May 1996.

    COSATU-aligned unions reciprocated this statement calling for full participation and state transparency, failing which further mass action will go ahead if the sale of state assets were implemented unilaterally. 5O

    [50 Labour consultants Andrew Levy and Associates claim in their second quarter Strike Report, that the "Stage is set for a showdown between government and trade unions on the issue of restructuring..." They further claim that there is a strong likelihood of a sharp rise in strikes related to restructuring of SOE's (The Star, 28 June 1996). ]

    This endorsed the threatening deadlock between govemment and organised labour.

    Referring to privatisation, President Mandela reiterated Mboweni’s threat, declaring that govemment will “go it alone” if labour, business and government could not form a successful partnership.51

    [51 Sunday Times, 26 May 1996.]
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    CENTRE FOR CIVIL SOCIETY RASSP RESEARCH REPORTS 2005, VOL.1

    Saranel Benjamin, Durban, September 2005

    “Introduction

    The ANC’s 1994 national election campaign was not only premised on delivering democracy and freedom to the citizens of South Africa but was also strongly rooted in the memory of apartheid’s denial of basic resources to black people.

    Riding on the crest of the Reconstruction and Development Programme (the ANC’s proposed economic plan for the post-liberation era based on redistribution of the country’s wealth to the poor), the ANC promised to right the wrongs of the past and to give the people what had long been denied them.

    Election posters blazing with the black green and gold party colours screamed out to the poor:

    “A better life for all!”, “Free basic services!”. “Jobs for all!”,

    with a promise to redistribute the wealth accumulated by the apartheid government, white business and the white population.

    The poor, trusting the rhetoric, voted in their millions to put the ANC into power as the first democratic government.

    When the ANC capitulated to the charms of a market-driven economy, the party ditched clauses from the Freedom Charter and the RDP and emerged with a macro-economic policy that was a ‘fairly standard neoliberal one”. 1

    [1 Adam Habib and Vishnu Padaychee (2000), "Economic Policy and Power Relations in South Africa's Transition to Democracy" in World Development, (vol.28, no.2)3. ]

    The choice of a market-driven policy that would ensure maximum profit accumulation by the already rich was made in full knowledge of South Africa’s stratified economy.

    South Africa, writes John Saul, is a country where the “the poorest 60% of household’s share of total expenditure is a mere 14%, while the the richest quintile’s share is 69% and where, across the decade of the nineties, a certain narrowing of the income gap between black and white (as a growing number of blacks have edged themselves into elite circles) has been paralleled by an even greater widening gap between rich and poor”. 2

    [2 John Saul, (2002), "Cry for the Beloved Country: the Post-Apartheid Denouement" (RAU Sociology), http://www.ukzn.ac.za/ccs 8. ]

    The Growth, Employment and Redistribution (GEAR) policy drew from the main tenets of neoliberalism as installed globally with the main objective of creating an environment which enables maximum private investment.

    Hence GEAR proposed cuts in government spending to reduce the deficit, the introduction of tax concessions for big business, a reduction of tariff barriers (in the clothing, textile,leather and car manufacturing industries), the privatization of government assets (which included the provision of basic services), a reduction in state welfare programmes and a more flexible labour market. Adelzadeh 3

    [3 In Hein Marais (2001), South Africa: Limits to Change, (Cape Toen: University of Cape Town Press) 163] and Saul both agree that the ANC had “come full circle, back to the late apartheid government’s Normative Economic Model.

    For the central premise of South Africa’s economic policy now could clearly be clearer: ask not what capital can do for South Africa, but what South Africa can do for capital…”4

    [4 Saul 12]

    The ANC pushed for GEAR, arguing that the policy framework could help achieve economic growth, attract foreign investment , boost employment and increase socio-economic equality. the verdict so far has been resoundingly negative:

    “GEAR has been associated with massive deindustrialization and job-shedding through reduced tariffs on imports, capital flight as as controls over investments are relaxed, attempts to downsize the costs and size of the public sector, and real cuts in education, health and social welfare spending”. 5
    [5 Saul 13 ]

    This neo-liberal economic framework precludes the the development of any form of social security system for the growing band of unemployed, informal sector workers and the poor. GEAR argues for a decline in state expenditure and, in keeping with global trends, this translates into cutting back on state welfare programmes.

    The harsh effects of the GEAR policy have been felt most by those who came into the era of democracy poor. These were black, working class people.

    Most were black, women, urban and rural. GEAR has left the poor more vulnerable to increasing poverty and has debilitated most workers by decimating the industries they work in. …”
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Through my involvement with the Auckland Water Pressure Group, I, (and others) made contact with some directly involved in the ‘social movements’, who were fighting back against these ANC-led neoliberal reforms, particularly the fight against water privatisation and the introduction of pre-paid water meters by groups such as the Anti-Privatisation Forum (APF).

    More information about the fightback by the ‘social movements’ in South Africa, is available here: http://www.ukzn.za/ccs

    “SEEK TRUTH FROM FACTS”!

    Penny Bright
    1981 Springbok Tour protestor
    ‘Anti-corruption/anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’

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  173. nasska (9,476 comments) says:

    The mad Waterwoman once again deludes herself that anyone could read such interminable shit without their eyes glazing over.

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  174. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Well, the ones I know simply can’t be fucked working.

    I don’t know how much clearer I can put it. They have no intention of job hunting. Zero. None. They just wanna play music and drink.

    There are no underlying circumstances. I know the parents. I know how they were raised. They still just don’t wanna work. In this country, turns out you don’t have to.

    Happy to help people who wants to help themselves. Over dishing it out and getting nothing in return.

    The world isn’t magic, Dime. Things have reasons, causes. Your friends’ lack of intention to job-hunt is not an uncaused cause of their unemployment – it will also have causes.

    It may be that the causes of their attitudes are too complex and subtle for us to accurately identify and alter or prevent in a new generation. In that case, well, we can only work with what we can know. But we’ll never even get that far if we start from the assumption that some people just magically don’t want to work and others just magically do.

    And when you describe the situation – and you’re not alone in this – you use such emotive language. You talk like you’re offended or upset or angry or annoyed by the way they’re behaving, like you’d get some joy out of causing them unhappiness as punishment rather than just wanting a fiscally optimal course of action.

    Treat it like science, like maths. Effects have causes. Understand the causes, change them, and you change the effects.

    A “kick in the ass” might be the most effective cause of the desired effect, but it also might not.

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  175. muggins (2,899 comments) says:

    flipper,
    If you believe for one moment that David Bain did not murder his family then it is you that is the stupid prick.

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  176. kowtow (6,686 comments) says:

    If you don’t work or earn the state (taxpayer)looks after you,you get housed and fed so you survive.

    If the state stopped encouraging sloth and indolence ,you’d be forced to work ,alternative being starvation.

    Crime you say? No problem. Harsh penalties will deter that as a choice too.

    Quite simple really.

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  177. nasska (9,476 comments) says:

    Hypothetical question Ryan….take a group, say ten, of Dime’s mates who “just wanna play music and drink”. For some reason…maybe a change of welfare policy or a government runs out of money or whatever & they are given three months notice that the benefit stops….forever.

    Six months on how many will have taken to crime, how many will have found work, how many will have lain down in the gutter & starved?

    Your best guess?

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  178. muggins (2,899 comments) says:

    Judith,
    I can understand you not wanting to discuss David Bain any more.
    After that email from Michael Guest to Judith Collins and his follow up letter anyone with even half a brain would have realised by now David Bain has no hope of receiving any compensation.
    As I said earlier no-one is going to pay compensation to someone who repeatedly lies on oath.

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  179. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Hypothetical question Ryan….take a group, say ten, of Dime’s mates who “just wanna play music and drink”. For some reason…maybe a change of welfare policy or a government runs out of money or whatever & they are given three months notice that the benefit stops….forever.

    Six months on how many will have taken to crime, how many will have found work, how many will have lain down in the gutter & starved?

    Your best guess?

    Depends on why they’re not working in the first place, Nasska. If they were all able to work and there were jobs to be got, my best guess would be that almost all would have got jobs, and that one or two of those jobs might be illegal ones.

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  180. SPC (4,615 comments) says:

    Excluding those who object to state, 43% of us have no religion and 49% are part of that broad group called Christian.

    So no longer any need to “kowtow” to any Christian majority anymore, there no longer is one.

    http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2013/12/not-christian-country.html

    As a neutral, one of 2.8% of some religion, not Jewish nor Moslem nor Hindu nor Buddhist, I will now withdraw from any discussion on the topic of our nations change in “identity” – no longer part of “Western Christendom”.

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  181. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ muggins (2,789 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 6:30 pm

    Oh dear, you poor sad loser. So wrong about so many things – there is no hope for you. At your age the only thing you have in your life is commenting about Bain, and then you have to be dishonest because the truth doesn’t cover your agenda.

    I don’t need to talk about Bain because I think I am informed enough on the subject and have made my own decision on my stance based on factual evidence (not unsupported gossip from a pack of witch sniffing mutts). Discussing it with you is like trying to convince the Easter Bunny that Dracula is his cousin. There is no point – you are a deluded old fart at best, and if I say what you are at worst, you’ll run off to DPF and complain like all the other times you have, because you get sooooooo sad when people call you names. You were right in what you wrote to JC – you have nothing in your life – which is why this is the only thing you concentrate on. You sad sad sad F.

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  182. nasska (9,476 comments) says:

    Ryan

    So we all roughly agree that incentive or stimuli will motivate the most idle….also that the cheapest methodology may be the most effective.

    Forty odd years ago, who was going to undertake compulsory military training was decided by ‘birthday’ ballot. We could introduce the same…..17th October, bad luck son, you’re ineligible for Welfare payments after 17th January….have a free copy of today’s “situations vacant”.

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  183. Nostalgia-NZ (4,683 comments) says:

    It would be fair to say that Fairfax had more than enough money to chose to defend what was posted on the hate-sites as either ‘truth’ or ‘honest opinion’ – of course they’re realists and didn’t bother trying. I gather a number of ‘experts’ offered help, but it was rejected as the lunatic ravings from the type that Fairfax didn’t want to be seen as associated with, and who, by no deliberate design by Fairfax, published the garbage that has no doubt cost Fairfax a princely sum. All because of the ‘difficulty’ in working out that a murder victim, captured unawares praying, doesn’t have blood smears on his palms, or cuts and bruises all over his hands.

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  184. thedavincimode (6,102 comments) says:

    Oh dear, you poor sad loser. So wrong about so many things – there is no hope for you. At your age the only thing you have in your life is commenting about Bain …There is no point – you are a deluded old fart at best, and if I say what you are at worst, you’ll run off to DPF and complain like all the other times you have, because you get sooooooo sad when people call you names.

    LOL, how’s that pedestal Judith?

    “It’s lonely on high” Judith sighs
    “How I crave intellectual highs”
    But any mention of Bain
    Drives the poor thing insane
    And Her majesty withers and dies

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  185. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ nasska (8,298 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 6:45 pm

    The problem with that suggestion is that many of these people are just ‘unemployable’. Sadly the school system does not prepare them for the working environment.

    I think that we should utilise the schools we have and run compulsory ‘work ready’ courses in night classes. If they want the dole, they only get paid if they attend these lessons – which can include everything from budgeting, interview techniques, to making your own bloody lunch and changing the oil in the car. Perhaps even a few lessons on answering the phone, and how NOT to use txt language in oral conversation. In short, if they learn nothing else they learn that you don’t get something for nothing in life.

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  186. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ thedavincimode (5,735 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 6:52 pm

    Another poor deluded soul who keeps mentioning my ‘intelligence’. Pleased to see you think so much of me. As far as your poetry skills are concerned, they about equal Dennis’ ability. More practice I think. I do have to say though, I get a great amount of pleasure in knowing I cause you, and three or four others so much angst that you feel a constant need to remind me of it. As they say, any attention is better than none at all. Keep smiling ! :-)

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  187. thedavincimode (6,102 comments) says:

    All because of the ‘difficulty’ in working out that a murder victim, captured unawares praying, doesn’t have blood smears on his palms, or cuts and bruises all over his hands.

    All because of the ‘difficulty’ in working out that a murder victim, captured unawares praying standing outside a nightclub, doesn’t have blood smears on his her palms, or cuts and bruises all over his her hands.

    Phew! Saved it for you just in time big guy!

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  188. thedavincimode (6,102 comments) says:

    Oh dear Judith, I think your slip is showing again :lol:

    Oops, sneaky edit. That remedial comprehension doesn’t seem to be working too well for you. Must read

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  189. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ thedavincimode (5,736 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 6:58 pm

    There you go again. Making a total fool of yourself by getting the facts wrong. I really do wonder how you manage to find your way on to the internet each day, when you can’t seem to recall anything with any accuracy?

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  190. Manolo (12,616 comments) says:

    Judith is my name,
    David Bain you are my saint,
    whenever your name is mentioned, I faint,
    I love you forever all the same.

    I’m not very bright,
    some people call me obsessed,
    I know I’m a woman possessed,
    but on your murders I can shed light.

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  191. thedavincimode (6,102 comments) says:

    you can’t seem to recall anything with any accuracy

    Like DB you mean?? :)

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  192. thedavincimode (6,102 comments) says:

    Manolo

    I think the missing second line is:

    “Denial is my game”

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  193. edhunter (434 comments) says:

    Dime I’m from the same neck of the woods & of similar vintage, & I’ve seen what you’ve seen, but just as there’s naturally intelligent people & naturally dumb people there is also naturally driven & lazy ones, fat ones skinny ones tall short etc..
    You can be intelligent & lazy just as you be dumb & driven.
    I agree there has to be a line drawn in the sand a time at which we say NO MORE!! but short of a revolution or another world war the line will constantly be redrawn & excuses made, you only have to look at France, Spain Greece fuck the USA to see where NZ will be in 20-30yrs time, and unfortunately even though it’s there for all to see we’re like Disney’s lemmings running straight for cliff.
    Seriously the world needs a cull.

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  194. Northland Wahine (542 comments) says:

    I’m having a wee chuckle, regarding “treat it like science, like math”…

    I prefer, show me you want to work, where have you applied? If you can’t attend 1 meeting a month to show you what you’ve done to look for work, why do you expect an employer to employ you?

    No job search, no benefit. If you have other mouths to feed, what are you doing about putting food in their mouths. Why is it some parents only remember their kids are their kids when you take them away? “my rights, my kids!”

    No gardens, no baking, god, I’ve said this countless times. Being on benefit is privilege. A privilege that shouldn’t be abused. Hey, if you don’t want to work, sweet as! Just don’t expect others to foot the bill.

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  195. nickb (3,629 comments) says:

    Total Ashes annihilation by Australia…looking forward to more test match cricket tomorrow… come on NZ

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  196. nickb (3,629 comments) says:

    Like DB you mean?? :)

    Defamation writ being served as we speak.

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  197. nickb (3,629 comments) says:

    Because she’s a Baniac, Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaainiac, on the floor!

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  198. wikiriwhis business (3,276 comments) says:

    ‘Total Ashes annihilation by Australia…looking forward to more test match cricket tomorrow… come on NZ’

    absolutely now the cricket fixing is over. Be exciting to see who are talened crickteers really are!

    Unfortunately, poor Vittori might be getting past his prime when it counts.

    Nah, nah….all gud….jokes

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  199. wikiriwhis business (3,276 comments) says:

    ‘Seriously the world needs a cull.’

    UN agenda 21 is working on it

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  200. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    Oh wow, aren’t we all so clever. Someone doesn’t agree with you, so you all join together. Do you really feel that threatened by people that don’t see the world in your way?

    For grown men, you certainly all act like a bunch of pre-school brats.

    And Nickb, aren’t you meant to be a lawyer? You should know then that a person cannot sue for defamation on behalf of someone else. I’ve seen many doubt that you are a lawyer. Based on your opinion above, I have to agree with them. But it does make me wonder why you feel the need to pass yourself off as one, if you aren’t?

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  201. nasska (9,476 comments) says:

    wikiriwhis business

    Ever feel bothered that the same organisation that proposes to cull the world human population to half a billion is also charged with preventing WW3?

    Because it doesn’t fill me with confidence.

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  202. nickb (3,629 comments) says:

    Wiki, Vettori has been past his prime for around 10 years. A spinner that can’t spin the ball?

    Judith, when have I ever tried to “pass myself off” as a lawyer? Why would I feel the need to do that when there is no way of knowing if I am or not? In any case, for differing reasons lawyers are generally hated on KB. So lets keep it between us.

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  203. Manolo (12,616 comments) says:

    Stop sexism and objectification of women. Feminists of the world, unite!
    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/nrl/howls-of-protest-as-traditional-canterbury-bulldogs-cheerleaders-are-given-the-flick/story-fni3g67w-1226779244784

    It had to be a Kiwi CEO. Leading the world.

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  204. nasska (9,476 comments) says:

    An observant woman died one day & found herself waiting
    in the long line for judgement. As she stood there, she
    noticed that some souls were allowed to march right through
    the pearly gates into heaven. Others though, were led over
    to Satan, who threw them into the burning pit. But every
    so often, instead of hurling a poor soul into the fire,
    Satan would toss the soul into a small pile off to one side.

    After watching Satan do this several times, the woman’s
    curiosity got the best of her. So she strolled over to find
    out what the devil he was doing.

    “Excuse me, Prince of Darkness,” she said. “I’m waiting
    my turn for judgement but I couldn’t help wondering, why
    are you tossing those people aside instead of flinging them
    into the fires of hell with the others?”

    Ah, those…” Satan said with a groan…
    “They’re all NZ Conservative Party supporters….. they’re too
    wet to burn! I’ll have to wring them out first.”

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  205. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Ryan

    So we all roughly agree that incentive or stimuli will motivate the most idle….also that the cheapest methodology may be the most effective.

    Nasska,

    I agree that incentives and stimuli can change behaviour, and that the cheapest methodology may be the most effective, yes.

    But your example may end up being a very expensive option. The same methods you apply to Dime’s 10 childless able-bodied friends who live in a place where jobs abound for those who seek them must be applied to many others who are not in that same situation, surely?

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  206. Sofia (777 comments) says:

    Hone Harawira heading to Mandela funeral
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9497375/Hone-Harawira-heading-to-Mandela-funeral

    Considering that amount of krap that has flowed in the past couple of days – blogs, tv and other media – it is interesting when reality cuts the official delegation to two New Zealand representatives permitted official entry to the funeral.

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  207. nasska (9,476 comments) says:

    Ryan

    I agree that there’s often a geographic divide between the unemployed & employment but it’s not beyond the wit of men & WINZ to work out someway to reimburse & support in the short term anyone who wants to move to an area where there are jobs. Eg East Cost NI to Christchurch.

    The history of industrialisation suggests that people move to work…..not vice versa.

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  208. lilman (658 comments) says:

    Judith for godsake either get a back rub from Hubby or go to bed and rub one out,you seriously need to chill ,after you have done the dishes though.

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  209. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Ryan

    I agree that there’s often a geographic divide between the unemployed & employment but is not beyond the wit of men & WINZ to work out someway to reimburse & support in the short term anyone who wants to move to an area where there are jobs. Eg East Cost NI to Christchurch.

    The history of industrialisation suggests that people move to work…..not vice versa.

    Sure, but now we’re talking about how to deal with people who want to work but can’t find it locally, rather than our original people who can find work locally but don’t want to work. And now we’re talking about two different ways to deal with those two different kinds of people, each in a way that costs differently – one the cost of relocation, another the cost of identifying them and cutting them off.

    All I’m saying is… Well, all I was originally saying was that Dime’s original post talking about what he would do if he was in their situation is reflective of a common misunderstanding of how deep someone’s situation goes.

    Now, I appear to be saying… What can seem like a cheap solution to a moderately expensive problem (cut off the benefit for people like Dime’s can-work-but-don’t-wanna folk) can actually be a very expensive solution to a moderately expensive problem. But while beneficiaries are commonly thought of as basically bad people who intentionally screw taxpayers over to fund an enjoyable life of leisure, a measured understanding of the problem and the generation of effective solutions will be hindered.

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  210. muggins (2,899 comments) says:

    A ballad to David

    There was once a young man called David
    Had dropped out of uni frustrated
    He had no enjoyment
    His only employment
    A newspaper round that he hated

    His family was rather a mess,
    A dysfunctional Dunedin address,
    A new home mum planned,
    With Dave as head man,
    And at first this appeared a success.

    This plan needed Robin’s consent
    So off to consult him mum went
    Then mum changed her mind
    Which Dave thought unkind
    And started his anger to vent

    He thought up a simple solution
    A cunning and quick execution
    He’d bump off the four
    Then out of the door
    For his normal ODT distribution

    And later when dad came inside
    In a handy alcove he would hide
    And while dad was praying
    He’d just simply slay him
    And say it was clear suicide

    The first four were shot in the head
    Some were in, some were out of their beds
    Steve put up a struggle
    All blood and kerfuffle
    A throttling hastened his end

    Then off to the wash-room Dave hurried
    His socks, jersey, track-pants were bloodied
    A wash-cycle started
    He quickly departed
    And off on his newsround he scurried
    The shooting of dad went to plan
    He enjoyed bumping off the old man
    The computer he’d started
    Before dad departed
    And the suicide note he began

    Then twenty more minutes of cleaning
    And a call to the cops full of pleading
    “They’re all dead” he then cried
    “I’m all torn up inside”
    While all the time inwardly beaming

    You’d think that with evidence aplenty
    The laundry, the blood and the frenzy
    The glasses that broke
    The lies that he spoke
    His years in the jail would be twenty

    But a gullible jury they found
    And Karam and Binnie astound
    And Reid won an oscar
    For “Meeting his maker”
    And out of his cell he did bound

    And now half the country believes him
    And wants to pay money to please him
    Which just goes to show
    How little they know
    And how thick are some media that leads them

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  211. Nostalgia-NZ (4,683 comments) says:

    FFS, it’s official all the nutters have left is counterfeit poetry.

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  212. nasska (9,476 comments) says:

    I don’t actually think that beneficiaries are necessarily bad people Ryan….as a group they would include many criminals & gang members whose past has effectively excluded them from employment. Most however, are victims of circumstance who never had or have lost the experience of a working life.

    They are also, generally, top notch breeders & their fecundity will eventually overwhelm us with a significant class of no hopers & underachievers. The cure will probably cost vast sums of taxpayer dollars but I would hate to become one of the bleeding heart academic excusers who train themselves to ignore the cheap & back the expensive.

    It’s not their money.

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  213. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ Nostalgia-NZ (4,197 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 8:45 pm

    Don’t worry, he didn’t write it, another of his asylum buddies did.

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  214. Nostalgia-NZ (4,683 comments) says:

    Well I guess it’s xmas in the cuckoo nest.

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  215. muggins (2,899 comments) says:

    Judith
    Doesn’t matter who wrote that ballad, just wanted you and your mates to comment.
    Not bad, eh?

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  216. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ nasska (8,302 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 8:48 pm

    I think that we have a problem with a number of families who are career beneficiaries. I don’t believe they are the majority, or even close to it, but just as we have some families who are career criminals, the same occurs in welfare. They pass on the skills of ‘learned hopelessness’ and after a couple of generations they really don’t know how to help themselves or what is required to be self-sufficient.

    Removing their money doesn’t work, because it’s all they’ve known. Giving them a job feels strange, so they don’t fit in and eventually leave. Their lives are full of all the things they do – except earning an income. Many of them don’t know how to cope with more money than just enough – its all they’ve ever had, all their parents ever had. It’s quite sad really – as a country we have to accept that we have created this situation, and despite the fact it is going to cost, we are going to have to find a way to put a stop to it, without harming those that genuinely need assistance.

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  217. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ muggins (2,791 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 8:52 pm

    You are a sad stupid man.

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  218. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ Nostalgia-NZ (4,198 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 8:51 pm

    They are not very happy about today’s news. You can tell they are worried – they’re in hyperactive mode and each giving their ‘advice’. Poor worried little lambs. And worried they should be …

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  219. Nostalgia-NZ (4,683 comments) says:

    Such are the fruits of persecution.

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  220. nasska (9,476 comments) says:

    Writing acceptable legislation that doesn’t leave loopholes is a big part of the trick Judith…..the DPB, for instance, was never intended to be long term or become a breeding base.

    If the system can be gamed then some will do it & pass on the skills.

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  221. Rowan (1,726 comments) says:

    Judith

    I imagine that after the upcoming court decision is made public and KP gets what he well intruly deserves from the courts, then the delusional mob will still think they have ‘won’ and have been proven ‘right’
    How many of his cult will have put aside money for the stupid fool? my guess is none, they will have distanced themselves like the gutless wonders they are, and just posting more delusional crap online from behind online pseudonyms. I guess that’s the only way they feel safe.

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  222. muggins (2,899 comments) says:

    Judith,
    You are a sad stupid woman.
    By the way, when you say “they are worried by today’s news” who are the “they’ you are referring to?
    Virtually no-one in the JFRB group has even commented. I certainly am not in the least bit worried.
    Stop making things up as you are wont to do.

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  223. muggins (2,899 comments) says:

    Rowan,
    Re post at 9.08pm.
    You post delusional onliine crap using a pseudonym so I guess by your own reckoning that makes you a gutless wonder.

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  224. Jack5 (4,211 comments) says:

    Gavin McInnes in Taki’s Magazine in an article about what he sees as the current face of racism:

    The Nazis were in favor of gun control, obsessed with environmentalism, they hated smoking, and their boss was a vegetarian. They were your typical socialists.

    http://takimag.com/article/same_oppression_different_name_gavin_mcinnes/print#ixzz2n3cqeXRN

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  225. cha (3,524 comments) says:

    Why Gareth hates cats.

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  226. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    I don’t actually think that beneficiaries are necessarily bad people Ryan….as a group they would include many criminals & gang members whose past has effectively excluded them from employment. Most however, are victims of circumstance who never had or have lost the experience of a working life.

    They are also, generally, top notch breeders & their fecundity will eventually overwhelm us with a significant class of no hopers & underachievers. The cure will probably cost vast sums of taxpayer dollars but I would hate to become one of the bleeding heart academic excusers who train themselves to ignore the cheap & back the expensive.

    It’s not their money.

    Okay, let’s see.

    Try this. If you had to choose between $100 of your money being given as a benefit to someone who could work or $120 of your money being spent to identify and deny him/her the benefit, which would you choose?

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  227. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    muggins (2,793 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 9:14 pm

    …You post delusional onliine crap using a pseudonym so I guess by your own reckoning that makes you a gutless wonder…

    LOL… and your real name is Muggins, is it? You twat!

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  228. Pete George (21,796 comments) says:

    After all the posturing here it turns out NZ only allowed two people at Mandela funeral. Too late to go through another spate of social media selecting back here.

    Demelza Leslie ‏@rnzdemelza

    David Cunliffe is on his way to meet the Prime Minister to formally give up his place at Mandela memorial to Pita Sharples.

    That seems like an admirable gesture from Cunliffe if it’s a straight up offer without any posturing.

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  229. muggins (2,899 comments) says:

    Judith,
    Get a grip. I don’t post delusional online crap, you twat.
    You and Rowan post enough of that without me having to do likewise.
    And who was it begged not to have their name released by a certain person on the grounds that they wanted to protect their anonymity?
    Dear oh dear.

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  230. nasska (9,476 comments) says:

    ….”If you had to choose between $100 of your money being given as a benefit to someone who could work or $120 of your money being spent to identify and deny him/her the benefit, which would you choose?”….

    How can it possibly cost more to not pay money out? In any case if someone has thirty five potential earning years ahead of them the medium/long term benefit to the taxpayer is enormous.

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  231. jcuk (502 comments) says:

    Think about it this way … those lazy dudes make it easier for those with the will to get a job and ahead.

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  232. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    How can it possibly cost more to not pay money out? In any case if someone has thirty five potential earning years ahead of them the medium/long term benefit to the taxpayer is enormous.

    It’s hypothetical. Let’s say it’s the combined average cost of WINZ identifying and triple-checking that he’s not really someone who needs support, the average opportunity cost of interest-free student loans to someone moving from the benefit to employment, average societal cost if he turns to crime after being cut off, average justice-system cost if he turns to crime and also gets caught, average legal-system cost if he ends up in a tenancy dispute after being cut off before he finds a job… Etc.

    Hypothetical. If that was the choice – give $100 to maintain his lifestyle or pay $120 to deny him. After you’ve paid, it’s someone else’s turn to make the same choice. What would you prefer?

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  233. Rowan (1,726 comments) says:

    Right “muggins” this is your real name is it?
    My name is actually Rowan and although I don’t know her personally I’d bet $100 that ‘Judith’ is not a pseudonym.

    Guess that makes the only delusional liar and gutless wonder you, but we already know that, all you can say is by twisting what we say and parrot it back at us like the pathetic loser that you are.
    You really are the worlds biggest piece of crap, well ahead of ‘Bono’ and Randy Marsh

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  234. nasska (9,476 comments) says:

    …”Hypothetical. If that was the choice – give $100 to maintain his lifestyle or pay $120 to deny him”….

    So long as it remains an hypothesis I’ll bite…..naturally because it’s my money I’ll go for the cheapest.

    But first I’d like to see a lot of evidence that the costings for the $120 job hadn’t been blown out of all proportion.

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  235. muggins (2,899 comments) says:

    Rowan,
    Even if Rowan is your real name which I doubt there are thousands of Rowan’s . What we need is your surname.
    And I will accept your bet re Judith.
    The difference between me and you Rowan is that I use my real full name on other websites. Now if you would care to link me to a website where you use your full name then I will apologise for calling you a gutless wonder, but until you are perpared to do that I will still call you a delusional gutless wonder.
    You know my name , so lets be having yours.

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  236. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ muggins (2,794 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 9:30 pm

    Members of your group have already been named in complaints to the police regarding their stalking of people, and worst still, their stalking and threatening of children. They have also had complaints made about them to police and government agencies for telephone calls and so on. Why would anyone in their right mind want you to have their address – and more to the point, why would you want it?

    Why do you need to know who anyone is on here – over and beyond contact on this site? What possible motive could you have for wanting to know that information? What possible gain could you have by knowing information about people that share opinions on a blog? I suggest anyone that wants that sort of information is up to no good.

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  237. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ muggins (2,795 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 9:51 pm

    Why would you want to know someone’s name? What possible motive could you have for that if they are not in a public eye, not a politician etc? Clearly you have devious intentions – my advice to Rowan would be don’t tell you anything – I’ve seen the nasty stuff you’ve taken part in, and are capable of. I strongly suggest that Rowan protects his family and tells you nothing.

    If you are stupid enough to put your name all over the net, then you are a fool – and my accusation is proven.

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  238. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Been on twitter a couple of weeks, I knew our media was left wing but Jesus, the majority on there are like undergraduates at their first decent piss up.

    The stroking that’s gone on over Mandelas funeral has been staggering. Patrick Gower remembers protesters walking past his place in new Plymouth as a four year old, just how fucking desperate are you for attention that you would write that crap?

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  239. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    So long as it remains an hypothesis I’ll bite…..naturally because it’s my money I’ll go for the cheapest.

    But first I’d like to see a lot of evidence that the costings for the $120 job hadn’t been blown out of all proportion.

    It’s about twelve different categories of the public sector. What did you expect? ; )

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  240. Rowan (1,726 comments) says:

    I am well aware of all that Judith but I am not going to tell her anything, I also know what ‘muggins’ real name is.
    If the best that the stupid old goat can do is to parrot back what we say to her then she is just demonstrating to the blogosphere that lack of brain cells that she possesses together with the ignorance of her knowledge of the Bain case.

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  241. muggins (2,899 comments) says:

    Judith
    Members of your group have been named in complaints to the police about stalking people.
    I have been stalked myself though I havn’t complained about it.
    Rowan said we hid behind pseudonyms and therefore were gutless wonders. I just pointed out that he hid behind a pseudonym so by his own reasoning that made him a gutless wonder.
    As for yourself, well if you want to go checking up on my letters and emails to people by using the Official Information Act then I would suggest you are just being a nosy old woman wanting to cause mischief.
    Of course I wouldn’t be surprised if you wanted that information to pass on to someone else who wants to remain anonymous.

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  242. muggins (2,899 comments) says:

    Rowan,
    I know you know who I am .
    What puzzles me is how come you keep getting my gender wrong.

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  243. muggins (2,899 comments) says:

    Judith,
    When I first joined the net I used my real name because I didn’t realise there were people like you out there who would want to check up on me.

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  244. thedavincimode (6,102 comments) says:

    Nutters nosty? :)

    Nutters? And just where does that leave you brave old thing?

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  245. thedavincimode (6,102 comments) says:

    muggins, go easy.

    I’ve only just realised that she didn’t get past 4th form English – the bit where once you’ve learned all the words you get to put them all together and work out what they mean.

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  246. Kanz (1,222 comments) says:

    muggins (2,794 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 9:09 pm

    I certainly am not in the least bit worried.
    Stop making things up as you are wont to do.

    You have a great deal to worry about. You used your real name when paying fairfax to publish the links to all those lies that has just cost them a bundle.
    A little birdie tells me they will be looking to recoup some of their losses, who do you think they will be asking, through the courts of course?

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  247. Rowan (1,726 comments) says:

    But again Muggy I am not hiding behind a pseudonym so you are again factually incorrect, I could track you down but have no real desire to. You are not worth the time of day. Lets hope for your sake members of the police who you continually misrepresent on this site aren’t interested in tracking you down either, although it would be no less than you deserve.

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  248. thedavincimode (6,102 comments) says:

    :) Birds of a feather tick together!

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  249. cha (3,524 comments) says:

    All feathers and shit!

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  250. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Where has Left Right & Center got to recently ?

    Has he got a hair cut and a job, instead of galloping around Welly night and day like Forrest Gump ?

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  251. Manolo (12,616 comments) says:

    Greeting a friend: http://news.yahoo.com/obama-shakes-hands-cuba-39-castro-mandela-memorial-003922095.html;_ylt=A2KJ3CVLHadS40sAO3DQtDMD

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  252. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ muggins (2,798 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 10:10 pm

    Well if you didn’t tell lies there would be nothing to check up on.

    I simply applied under the Official Information Act to check up on what you stated very clearly was information you’d received from the NZ Police. They sent me what that information was, and it revealed you had lied about what you had been told.

    Moral of the story is – don’t tell lies.

    You on the other hand tried everything within your power to find out my address – for what reason? Why would you need to know where I lived? Give me one decent respectable reason why you would need that information?

    You’re a creep, a stalker and a liar – all provable.

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  253. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ thedavincimode (5,742 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 10:14 pm

    Oh dear, you poor little man. I may not be an accurate typist or speller, but the one thing I can assure you, I have a damn site more qualifications than you have manners, and charm. The one thing I don’t have that you do, is a bullshit attitude that allows me to think that bullying people on the internet because they don’t agree with you, is o.k. It’s not – it is a sign of a very weak person that resorts to the tactics you, muggins and a couple of others exhibit.

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  254. stephieboy (1,110 comments) says:

    Kanz (1,213 comments) says:
    December 10th, 2013 at 10:18 pm
    Re coup their losses.??
    You have full information on what Fairfax reached with Karam with the terms of settlement.??
    Correct.?
    And details about the manner in which they seek to recoup their alleged” losses.” ?
    The time is ripe to reform our Defamation laws along US lines which puts the onus heavily on the plaintiff to prove loss, hurt etc.

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