General Debate 24 December 2013

December 24th, 2013 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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99 Responses to “General Debate 24 December 2013”

  1. Viking2 (10,703 comments) says:

    A man and a woman started to have sex in the middle of a dark forest. After about 15 minutes of it, the man finally gets up and says, “Damn, I wish I had a flashlight!”. The woman says, “Me too, you’ve been eating grass for the past ten minutes!”

    Moral of the Story.
    Identify your target when out hunting.

    Merry Xmas and play safe.
    We are out there in the scrub.

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  2. flipper (3,269 comments) says:

    How FISHER, the senior arsehole reporter on the NZ Herald, operates when trying to remove mud from the Herald’s collective face
    The Herald today…. (Their fiction, corrected by me using caps to emphasise or delete untruths)

    *** “The councillor caught out on a junket to the Gold Coast declared the trip to officials – but CONCEDES he may have done so after a call from a journalist.

    “But Cameron Brewer said his declaration WASN’T prompted by a call from Herald media specialist John Drinnan. INSTEAD, he said it was a council official’s email THAT RAISED CONCERNS ABOUT HIS FREE FLIGHTS AND ACCOMMODATION.
    MR BREWER’S STAND AGAINST AUCKLAND MAYOR LEN BROWN WAS BROUGHT UP SHORT WHEN HE WAS EXPOSED AS NOT HAVING DECLARED THE AUGUST 2011 TRIP TO AUSTRALIA.

    “On Sunday, Mr Brewer REVEALED [said, actually] he had ACTUALLY declared the trip BUT ONLY FOR THE COUNCIL’S GIFTS REGISTER AND NOT THE REGISTER OF MEMBERS’ INTERESTS.

    “THE DECLARATION WAS MADE AT 11.30AM ON SEPTEMBER 8, 2011, recorded in an email sent a day BEFORE Drinnan revealed it in his weekly media column. On September 9, 2011, Drinnan reported: “Brewer says he declared the trip as a gift.”
    Drinnan said he called Mr Brewer either the day before the column ran or two days before.
    Mr Brewer said a SEPTEMBER 7, 2011, email from council electoral officer Bruce Thomas alerted him to the need to declare the trip. The email was sent to all councillors to alert them of the need to declare gifts worth more than $300 ahead of the Rugby World Cup.

    “He said he wasn’t sure when Drinnan rang BUT ACCEPTS “DRINNAN MIGHT HAVE COME BETWEEN THOSE EMAILS. I DON’T KNOW.”

    NOTE….
    Some words and phrases have been capped by me. THEY are words used by Fisher that are deliberately pejorative, misleading or simply untrue. They amount to a futile attempt to justify a bullshit yarn designed to help dilly red Len.

    CONCLUSIONS ???
    Draw your own, but mine are that it is FISHER who has been caught out, and exposed as a liar and a cheat – regrettably, still employed by a once great newspaper. In the days when the Herald was a newspaper, he would have had his arse handed to him BEFORE lunch yesterday.

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  3. Viking2 (10,703 comments) says:

    For those in the High country.

    http://screencast.com/t/lpuOe7HslD

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  4. Colville (1,770 comments) says:

    Just want to wish a very Merry Christmas to the gutless sycophantic troughing weak kneed Auckland City Councillors that have supported Pants Down Len by their inaction.
    Hardly even a wet bus ticket with the censure and Len carries on spending Auckland Ratepayers dosh defending himself like its going out of fashion.
    I hope you choke on your Christmas ham you pack of useless cu*ts and that goes doubly for you Penny Hulse.

    and to the rest of New Zealand, have a great day :-)

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  5. kowtow (6,690 comments) says:

    Religion of peace………not.

    Pakistani Christians face a Christmas of fear.

    http://www.thestandard.com.hk/breaking_news_detail.asp?id=44665&icid=4&d_str=20131223

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  6. All_on_Red (941 comments) says:

    Flipper
    It was sadly predictable that the NZH would have another go at Brewer. They might want Brown to go but they sure don’t want a ” right wing” Mayor either.It will become clear who they are supporting to replace Brown very soon.

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  7. kowtow (6,690 comments) says:

    Britain finally doing something about it’s adherents to the religion of peace..

    And how many “kiwis”are there in Syria doing peaceful ,spiritual jihad?

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/12/uk-strips-british-nationality-from-twenty-of-the-240-british-muslims-waging-jihad-in-syria.html

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  8. flipper (3,269 comments) says:

    All_on_Red (715 comments) says:

    December 24th, 2013 at 8:12 am
    ****

    Yep, You are right.
    Merry Xmas

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  9. wat dabney (3,435 comments) says:

    Kowtow,

    Shall we also discuss Christianity’s long and barbaric history of bloody warfare, murder, oppression and cruelty, or will you shut up?

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  10. Pete George (21,803 comments) says:

    flipper – I saw the same in that article. Fisher has difficulty backing down from mistakes. He can be like this in Twitter as well.

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  11. doggone7 (487 comments) says:

    Playing fast and loose with a post…

    end of year CONCLUSIONS:

    MANY WORDS are used on here that are deliberately pejorative, misleading or simply untrue. They amount to futile attempts to justify bullshit designed to help the writers’ positions.

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  12. kowtow (6,690 comments) says:

    wat

    Christianity’s long and barbaric history is continually discussed on this forum by the aggressive secularists such as yourself,and that’s fine.

    What is not discussed is the current,ongoing bloody war of aggression by Muslims on Christians.There are no shortage of apologists for Muslim aggression against Christians here and you in your hatred of Christianity now appear to be one of those.

    Our media ,politicians, intellectuals and academics and strangely Church leaders constantly portray Islam as a religion of peace and tolerance.

    That being the case I will continue to post these links.

    At the moment we are still free to do that,that freedom is being eroded by the establishment all over the west and you seem to be happy with silencing dissent with the tone of your ….”or will you shut up?”

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  13. Tom Jackson (2,235 comments) says:

    What is not discussed is the current,ongoing bloody war of aggression by Muslims on Christians.

    Because it doesn’t exist.

    If anything, the violence goes the other way. Obama’s drones randomly kill a dozen or so Muslims most weeks. This week they bombed someone’s wedding.

    It’s amazing that you seem to think that the majority of violence goes the other way. Hell, no Muslim country has invaded a non-Muslim country recently.

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  14. iMP (2,150 comments) says:

    In America, shrieking political correctness is down and wounded (with duck shot). The Duck is back in Bald Eagle land. A&E cave.

    http://conzervative.wordpress.com/2013/12/24/the-duck-is-back/

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  15. mandk (684 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson:
    “Because it doesn’t exist”

    That’s just plain fatuous.
    Try living as a Christian in N Nigeria, where Boko Haram throw grenades into churches.
    Try being a Christian now in Egypt.
    Try being a Christian in Pakistan.

    Even the rabidly anti-Christian Kea acknowledges that Christians are the victims of aggression by Muslims, e.g. in Syria right now.

    btw, don’t take this as excusing aggression by Christians.
    It happens, because we live in a fallen world.

    Best wishes for a peaceful Christmas.

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  16. Dave_1924 (54 comments) says:

    So Tom Jackson – I can’t think of any incident recently of a Muslim country invading a Christian one… But the history book is littered with examples when Islam was on the rise and Islam had the technological advantage.

    I can recall examples of Nigerian Muslims attacking Christians including shooting people in Church, Pakistani Christians being attacked, we have had Copts attacked in Egypt all in 2013…. and that’s just off the top of my head.

    I don’t agree with the USAs recently adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan…. and I don’t agree with the concept of some type of clash of culture. But Islam is not a religion of peace and it hasn’t been day 1. Zealots abound in Islam and preach aggression against non-Muslims

    The Prophet lead attacks on non-Muslims right at the being Islam. Islam was carried from Arabia at the point of sword and spear, sweeping away established Christian and Zoroastrian communities in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Persia, Iraq, North Africa, Turkey.

    Christianity is certainly no pacifist religion either. Its record in South America in the 1500′s, 1600′s was shameful as just one example

    But frankly the West has arrived at a predominately secular stance now and bends over backwards to seem tolerant. Look at Britain and how long it tolerate out right hatred being spewed forth in the Mosques of London.

    Extremeism is dangerous regardless of its flavour. And frankly I have no desire to Sharia law get any currency in the Western sphere.

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  17. Manolo (12,618 comments) says:

    Same to you and the family, Colville.
    Sip and imbibe fines wines (always in moderation)! :-)

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  18. Manolo (12,618 comments) says:

    Peaceful end of the year among worshippers of the vile religion of peace: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/south-sudan/10534812/South-Sudan-president-says-army-ready-to-take-on-rebels.html

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  19. Jack5 (4,216 comments) says:

    Anyone else burned today by NZ Post in the burgeoning business of delivering online purchases? If NZ Post was any good this was where it would be surging as letter post drops.

    Courier flicks past early morning drops in a card for pick up of Christmas goods, but you can’t pick it up until Saturday. To find this out you sit in an online phone queue for more than 10 minutes.

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  20. Nostalgia-NZ (4,685 comments) says:

    Nostalgia-NZ (4,231 comments) says:
    December 24th, 2013 at 9:48 am

    Potential action by the Auckland Ratepayers association or concerned citizens against Len Brown?

    Writ to the High Court for a declaration on the Mayoral Office seeking an order, comment, or direction about the status of the office of the current Auckland Mayor.

    The Grounds:

    To be argued on the basis that the Mayor has deliberately presented a public face that for all intents is fraudulent. That the Mayor has wrongfully mined for public votes by misrepresenting his values and honesty and therefore no longer has a public mandate.

    That there is a Constitutional right under the BORA for electors to have their voice heard in circumstances where there is justifiable loss in the conduct of an elected official responsible in part for the good management of rate-payers funds and the benefit of the city.

    That in any event democratic processes must be secondary to public good and the openness of that process must bear scrutiny. That Legislation of the powers of dismissal or a new election being called can never have intended for an elected official to remain in office despite the loss of public confidence, and even if it did it was therefore wrong.

    Remedy:

    The Court to make a declaration on the general rights of rate-payers in the current situation, for example whether they are constrained and have ‘lost their voice or democratic rights’ because of lack of vision and anticipation the probable events in future of the Act which applies, whether that is the fault of the citizens or the legislators and how best that might be remedied now or in the future.

    A general description of what a rate-payers might anticipate when making a vote based on the claimed conduct and beliefs of a candidate.

    Interim Order:

    The Mayor’s loss of confidence is on the basis of his personal conduct and misrepresentations before and after the election. That he is now seen as acting with disregard for the public good, or the perception of the public good of both rate-payers and citizens. That money is being spent because of a situation arising from the Mayor’s personal decisions and conduct therefore an order is sought preventing the Mayor spending from the public purse on his defence at least until the application is heard.

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  21. Manolo (12,618 comments) says:

    Steyn is always on the money: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/362439/fate-worse-canada-mark-steyn

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  22. PhilP (139 comments) says:

    Merry Christmas Kiwibloggers I sincerely hope that you all have a wonderful time with family and friends. Have a great New Year also. It’s been a another great year on Kiwiblog thanks to DPF and all contributors…..yes I can even be charitable to Penny Bright this festive season. All the best to all.

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  23. Manolo (12,618 comments) says:

    What will the Messiah lovers (Mike Hosking among them) say?
    http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/193853-obamacare-approval-drops-to-record-low-in-cnn-poll

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  24. Jack5 (4,216 comments) says:

    PhilP (10.10 post):

    And season’s greetings to you, and to DPF and Kokila Patel, and to all Kiwibloggers, even the angry young atheists who don’t believe in Christmas as they work through the rebellion we negotiated when we were 14 or 15 (though none of my youthful friends were manic enough to announce they had written a superior version of the Ten Commandments.)

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  25. Sofia (778 comments) says:

    Up-ticking Nostalgia-NZ’s 10:04 comment on Len Brown

    I regret I am not an Auckland ratepayer to have a more direct reason to support a writ to the High Court for a declaration on the Mayoral Office seeking an order, comment, or direction about the status of the office of the current Auckland Mayor, to be argued on the basis that the Mayor has deliberately presented a public face that for all intents is fraudulent. That the Mayor has wrongfully mined for public votes by misrepresenting his values and honesty and therefore no longer has a public mandate.

    At the same time as any sexual misdemeanor [adultery], Len Brown acted as Mayor projecting an image of Christian home maker while in fact fraudulently misleading the electorate to vote for a man who he isn’t.
    Simple electioneering misrepresentation of the facts.

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  26. MH (558 comments) says:

    Peace and goodwill to all men and most women.
    let us bow our heads,off caps,and Let us pray that more men will enter the teaching profession and be guided by the rules of Rugby Union esp Law 6.a.4
    (a) The referee is the sole judge of fact and of Law during a match. The referee must apply
    fairly all the Laws of the Game in every match.
    and so it must be, rest ye merry gentlemen.

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  27. duggledog (1,105 comments) says:

    More fallout from the wretched Hobbit movies that Actor’s Equity were so keen to see made somewhere else because it just wasn’t fair:

    James Nesbitt, the Northern Irish actor who plays Bofur in the Hobbit trilogy has filmed a one hour documentary ‘showing off’ the New Zealand he now loves – it’s to be broadcast in the UK on Christmas Day right at the time the Poms will be sitting back after their meal. Predicted audience in excess of 4 million.

    Out of that 4 million who knows how many Poms will be thinking ‘you know, we really ought to visit’. Good. Bring your sterling.

    Principles are all well and good, but they don’t pay the bills. I am having glazed ham; salad; strawbs tonight, the full monty turkey business tomorrow!

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  28. Tom Jackson (2,235 comments) says:

    That’s just plain fatuous.
    Try living as a Christian in N Nigeria, where Boko Haram throw grenades into churches.
    Try being a Christian now in Egypt.
    Try being a Christian in Pakistan.

    Even the rabidly anti-Christian Kea acknowledges that Christians are the victims of aggression by Muslims, e.g. in Syria right now.

    Which is obviously not the same as saying that there is an ongoing war by Muslims as a group on Christians as a group. The examples you cite are cherry picked, and there was an item on the news just yesterday about Muslims being attacked by gangs of Christians somewhere in Africa. The problem isn’t specifically Islam or Christianity in these cases, but a general religious intolerance that characterises these societies’ treatment of minorities.

    There is no great Islamic conspiracy to wage war on the west. Such a notion is entirely chimerical. What you, and others like you on both sides, are doing is to try to enlist the rest of us for your religious cause. Christianity and Islam are rivals insofar as they are proselytising faiths, but the oldest trick in the world is for such faiths to try to enlist support by pretending that the other is an existential or civilisational rival rather than a faith rival.

    I personally wouldn’t give a flying fuck whether more people become Christian or Muslim, because I don’t care. My preference would be for people to stop believing in sky pixies, but human beings are notoriously gullible creatures.

    Politicians pull a similar trick. They often try to disguise material disputes as conflicts of fundamental principles, because it’s easy to compromise on the former, but almost impossible on the latter.

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  29. Tom Jackson (2,235 comments) says:

    So Tom Jackson – I can’t think of any incident recently of a Muslim country invading a Christian one… But the history book is littered with examples when Islam was on the rise and Islam had the technological advantage.

    And vice versa. That has very little to do with religion. The main military expansion of Islam stalled almost 1300 years ago. Since then, there have been border wars and changes here and there, but nothing that didn’t also happen between “nations” of the same faith. Hell, the Ottoman Empire was last an ally of the Central Powers in the Great War.

    I can recall examples of Nigerian Muslims attacking Christians including shooting people in Church, Pakistani Christians being attacked, we have had Copts attacked in Egypt all in 2013…. and that’s just off the top of my head.

    Yes, religious intolerance is rife in more primitive societies, after all, it’s only about 70 years since a Christian country and its Christian allies virtually exterminated the European Jewish minority. The level of this sort of thing usually depends on how advanced your society is. A Muslim in NZ is more likely to want to sell you a pie and a packet of smokes than kill you.

    As a case in point, 1100 years ago the most religiously tolerant society on earth was Islamic Al-Andalus, because it was a more educated and culturally advanced society than Christian Europe. The Jews of Iberia practically begged the Muslims to invade because they were treated so poorly by the Christian Visigoths. It lasted a fair while in historical terms, but ended sadly. Mind you, Christian Spain was far worse for anti-semitism and religious intolerance (the Inquisition being an obvious case).

    I don’t agree with the USAs recently adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan…. and I don’t agree with the concept of some type of clash of culture. But Islam is not a religion of peace and it hasn’t been day 1. Zealots abound in Islam and preach aggression against non-Muslims

    Zealots are as zealots do. It has always been so. “Zealot” isn’t even an Arabic term. The cure for zealotry is to have a pluralistic, modern society like we have. It seems to work pretty well.

    The Prophet lead attacks on non-Muslims right at the being Islam. Islam was carried from Arabia at the point of sword and spear, sweeping away established Christian and Zoroastrian communities in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Persia, Iraq, North Africa, Turkey.

    1400 years ago.

    But frankly the West has arrived at a predominately secular stance now and bends over backwards to seem tolerant. Look at Britain and how long it tolerate out right hatred being spewed forth in the Mosques of London.

    That’s a fair comment. That speech is tolerated because it has zero chance of changing the social order.

    Extremeism is dangerous regardless of its flavour. And frankly I have no desire to Sharia law get any currency in the Western sphere.

    Here’s some news: most Muslims don’t want to live under the religious austerity demanded by people like Osama bin Laden. There’s a few nutters, but the vast majority have about as much desire to have a theocracy as you do. Even Erdogan’s Turkey is nowhere near a theocratic state, and most Muslims who live in places like the UK and NZ came to get away from people like that.

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  30. CrazyIvan (74 comments) says:

    Manolo – South Sudan is not example of Muslim on Christian conflict.

    It is actually a predominantly Christian and animist country (around 2.7m are Catholics) – that was one of the main reasons it broke away from the Sudan. Only around 6% of the population are Muslim. The issue is more about one leader not wanting to share power with another – and ethnic rivalries between Dinka and Nuer, both of who were oppressed when the area was tied to the Arabic, Muslim north.

    There are lots of examples of religious attacks on Christians by Muslim populations around the world, but that’s not the cause of the South Sudan conflict

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  31. Fletch (5,719 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson, your statement left me dumbfounded.

    CHristians and Coptic Christians are under constant attack in Middle East countries. Even Prince Charles admitted a few days ago that only a small percentage of the Middle East was Christian now because of these attacks.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25426155

    The media won’t report it, but just pop over to Jihad Watch and read the stories. You’ll soon see how wrong you are.

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/

    Here are some of the headlines for you –

    Syria: Islamic jihadists murder 12 people by firing mortar shells at church

    Central African Republic: Muslims murder nearly 1,000 Christians over two-day period

    Christmas a day of terror for Christians in Iraq; Christianity “squeezed out to extinction” in Middle East

    Interfaith outreach in Indonesia: New rash of church closings, signs hung near church saying “Jesus is a dog,” “Kill the Christians”

    Nigeria: Muslim jailed over Christmas jihad bomb attack on Catholic church that murdered 37 people

    Interfaith outreach in Nigeria: Muslims murder at least 205 Christians

    Interfaith outreach in Syria: Islamic jihadists invade Christian village, force Christians to live by Islamic law

    Nigeria: Muslims murder four people and burn down 100 houses in Christian village

    Syria: Jihadis firebomb new Christ statue and ancient monastery

    Three American Teachers Slaughtered for Christian Faith in Muslim World

    “They are slaughtering us like chickens”: Thousands of Christians in Central African Republic flee Muslim attackers

    Egypt: Noted convert from Islam to Christianity arrested and likely tortured

    Germany: “Allahu akbar” painted across church door

    Syria: Islamic jihadists fire rockets at Christian schools, killing at least five children

    Cameroon: Muslims murder missionary, set churches ablaze

    Russia: Muslims burn seven churches, priests “remain silent because they are afraid of being accused of incitement to religious hatred”

    Indonesia: Islamic supremacists and local authorities demolish church for lacking “building permit”

    Syria: Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch says Muslims killed three Christians for refusing to convert to Islam

    Syria: Islamic jihadists kidnap twelve nuns from monastery

    Syria: Al-Qaeda jihadists seize church, transform it into their headquarters

    Indonesia: “Islamic Defenders Front” attacks church during prayer service

    And these headlines are only from December so far.
    So, nothing to see here, right? The only reason you don’t know about these things is that the media refuses to report them.

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  32. kowtow (6,690 comments) says:

    Erdogan’s Turkey?

    Deputy PM wants to remosque Hagia Sofia.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/video/europe/2013/12/religious-controversy-istanbul-hagia-sofia-20131220222331971473.html

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  33. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/10536246/Alan-Turing-granted-Royal-pardon-by-the-Queen.html

    A wee bit late- this guy saved thousands and thousands of live during WWII, quite disgusting its taken 61 years and a massive publicity campaign to get it done.

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  34. kowtow (6,690 comments) says:

    Muslims in Britain are quite happy to have their backward practises implemented in the west.

    This is students,presumably born and bred in Britain.

    Their attitudes are not integrated or ‘British”. They are a threat to the British way of life and culture.Just look at the current M&S furore.(And the reaction,thank goodness)

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-3-British-Muslim-students-killing-Islam-40-want-Sharia-law.html

    Hey Wat Dumney ……I will not shut up!

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  35. Fletch (5,719 comments) says:

    As a case in point, 1100 years ago the most religiously tolerant society on earth was Islamic Al-Andalus, because it was a more educated and culturally advanced society than Christian Europe.

    Al-Andalus is a fiction brought up by those sympathetic to Islam. It wasn’t the peaches and cream it is claimed to be.
    http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=1364

    The Christian Crusades were a reaction to long-going Muslim aggression in the world. It wasn’t until Byzantine emperor Alexius Comnenus asked the Pope for help that he intervened. Here’s a little time line for you of the “peaceful” Muslim activities in the world.

    630 Two years before Muhammad’s death of a fever, he launches the Tabuk Crusades, in which he led 30,000 jihadists against the Byzantine Christians. He had heard a report that a huge army had amassed to attack Arabia, but the report turned out to be a false rumor. The Byzantine army never materialized. He turned around and went home, but not before extracting ‘agreements’ from northern tribes. They could enjoy the ‘privilege’ of living under Islamic ‘protection’ (read: not be attacked by Islam), if they paid a tax (jizya).

    This tax sets the stage for Muhammad’s and the later Caliphs’ policies. If the attacked city or region did not want to convert to Islam, then they paid a jizya tax. If they converted, then they paid a zakat tax. Either way, money flowed back to the Islamic treasury in Arabia or to the local Muslim governor.

    632—634 Under the Caliphate of Abu Bakr the Muslim Crusaders reconquer and sometimes conquer for the first time the polytheists of Arabia. These Arab polytheists had to convert to Islam or die. They did not have the choice of remaining in their faith and paying a tax. Islam does not allow for religious freedom.

    633 The Muslim Crusaders, led by Khalid al—Walid, a superior but bloodthirsty military commander, whom Muhammad nicknamed the Sword of Allah for his ferocity in battle (Tabari, 8:158 / 1616—17), conquer the city of Ullays along the Euphrates River (in today’s Iraq). Khalid captures and beheads so many that a nearby canal, into which the blood flowed, was called Blood Canal (Tabari 11:24 / 2034—35).

    634 At the Battle of Yarmuk in Syria the Muslim Crusaders defeat the Byzantines. Today Osama bin Laden draws inspiration from the defeat, and especially from an anecdote about Khalid al—Walid. An unnamed Muslim remarks: ‘The Romans are so numerous and the Muslims so few.’ To this Khalid retorts: ‘How few are the Romans, and how many the Muslims! Armies become numerous only with victory and few only with defeat, not by the number of men. By God, I would love it . . . if the enemy were twice as many’ (Tabari, 11:94 / 2095). Osama bin Ladin quotes Khalid and says that his fighters love death more than we in the West love life. This philosophy of death probably comes from a verse like Sura 2:96. Muhammad assesses the Jews: ‘[Prophet], you are sure to find them [the Jews] clinging to life more eagerly than any other people, even polytheists’ (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004; first insertion in brackets is Haleem’s; the second mine).

    634—644 The Caliphate of Umar ibn al—Khattab, who is regarded as particularly brutal.

    635 Muslim Crusaders besiege and conquer of Damascus

    636 Muslim Crusaders defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.

    637 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iraq at the Battle of al—Qadisiyyah (some date it in 635 or 636)

    638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.

    638—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran, except along Caspian Sea.

    639—642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.

    641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.

    643—707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.

    644 Caliph Umar is assassinated by a Persian prisoner of war; Uthman ibn Affan is elected third Caliph, who is regarded by many Muslims as gentler than Umar.

    644—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran, Afghanistan, and Sind.

    656 Caliph Uthman is assassinated by disgruntled Muslim soldiers; Ali ibn Abi Talib, son—in—law and cousin to Muhammad, who married the prophet’s daughter Fatima through his first wife Khadija, is set up as Caliph.

    656 Battle of the Camel, in which Aisha, Muhammad’s wife, leads a rebellion against Ali for not avenging Uthman’s assassination. Ali’s partisans win.

    657 Battle of Siffin between Ali and Muslim governor of Jerusalem, arbitration goes against Ali

    661 Murder of Ali by an extremist; Ali’s supporters acclaim his son Hasan as next Caliph, but he comes to an agreement with Muawiyyah I and retires to Medina.

    661—680 the Caliphate of Muawiyyah I. He founds Umayyid dynasty and moves capital from Medina to Damascus

    673—678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire

    680 Massacre of Hussein (Muhammad’s grandson), his family, and his supporters in Karbala, Iraq.

    691 Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem, only six decades after Muhammad’s death.

    705 Abd al—Malik restores Umayyad rule.

    710—713 Muslim Crusaders conquer the lower Indus Valley.

    711—713 Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus. Muslims today still grieve over their expulsion 700 years later. They seem to believe that the land belonged to them in the first place.

    719 Cordova, Spain, becomes seat of Arab governor

    732 The Muslim Crusaders stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance

    749 The Abbasids conquer Kufah and overthrow Umayyids

    756 Foundation of Umayyid amirate in Cordova, Spain, setting up an independent kingdom from Abbasids

    762 Foundation of Baghdad

    785 Foundation of the Great Mosque of Cordova

    789 Rise of Idrisid amirs (Muslim Crusaders) in Morocco; foundation of Fez; Christoforos, a Muslim who converted to Christianity, is executed.

    800 Autonomous Aghlabid dynasty (Muslim Crusaders) in Tunisia

    807 Caliph Harun al—Rashid orders the destruction of non—Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem

    809 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy

    813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country

    831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy

    850 Caliph al—Matawakkil orders the destruction of non—Muslim houses of prayer

    855 Revolt of the Christians of Hims (Syria)

    837—901 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France

    869—883 Revolt of black slaves in Iraq

    909 Rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Tunisia; these Muslim Crusaders occupy Sicily, Sardinia

    928—969 Byzantine military revival, they retake old territories, such as Cyprus (964) and Tarsus (969)

    937 The Ikhshid, a particularly harsh Muslim ruler, writes to Emperor Romanus, boasting of his control over the holy places

    937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked

    960 Conversion of Qarakhanid Turks to Islam

    966 Anti—Christian riots in Jerusalem

    969 Fatimids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Egypt and found Cairo

    c. 970 Seljuks enter conquered Islamic territories from the East

    973 Israel and southern Syria are again conquered by the Fatimids

    1003 First persecutions by al—Hakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed

    1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by al—Hakim (see 937)

    1012 Beginning of al—Hakim’s oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians

    1015 Earthquake in Palestine; the dome of the Dome of the Rock collapses

    1031 Collapse of Umayyid Caliphate and establishment of 15 minor independent dynasties throughout Muslim Andalus

    1048 Reconstruction of the Church of the Resurrection completed

    1050 Creation of Almoravid (Muslim Crusaders) movement in Mauretania; Almoravids (aka Murabitun) are coalition of western Saharan Berbers; followers of Islam, focusing on the Quran, the hadith, and Maliki law.

    1055 Seljuk Prince Tughrul enters Baghdad, consolidation of the Seljuk Sultanate

    1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection

    1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia

    1071 Turks (Muslim Crusaders) invade Palestine

    1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks (Muslim Crusaders)

    1075 Seljuks (Muslim Crusaders) capture Nicea (Iznik) and make it their capital in Anatolia

    1076 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) conquer western Ghana

    1085 Toledo is taken back by Christian armies

    1086 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) send help to Andalus, Battle of Zallaca

    1090—1091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands

    1094 Byzantine emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory; Seljuks are Muslim Turkish family of eastern origins; see 970

    1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099

    So it is only after all of the Islamic aggressive invasions that Western Christendom launches its first Crusades.

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  36. kowtow (6,690 comments) says:

    In other news from Pakistan,the “Pure” country,created in an orgy of murder,rape ,arson and other indescribable violence ,because Indian Muslims refused to live in an India where they would be a minority, a massive security operation has to be mounted in order to keep Muslims safe from other Muslims………

    Religion of peace?

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2013/12/pakistan-high-alert-ahead-shia-festival-201312231160823761.html

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  37. EAD (314 comments) says:

    Stop the destruction of the middle class, end Central Banking, End the Fed!

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-23/100th-anniversary-federal-reserve-here-are-100-reasons-shut-it-down-forever

    Merry Christmas

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  38. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    “A wee bit late- this guy saved thousands and thousands of live during WWII, quite disgusting its taken 61 years and a massive publicity campaign to get it done.”

    Good grief PEB. Who’ll be next? Oscar Wilde perhaps! :)

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  39. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    Phantom JB downthumber alert>Phantom JB downthumber alert! :) :)

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  40. Nukuleka (77 comments) says:

    “A wee bit late- this guy saved thousands and thousands of live during WWII, quite disgusting its taken 61 years and a massive publicity campaign to get it done.”

    He broke the law of the day- end of story! That law may have been revoked and it may in hindsight have been an unjust law. We may feel sorry for those convicted under such laws, but either ALL convicted under such a law are pardoned or NONE are pardoned. It is simply unjust to be selective.

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  41. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    Breaker Morant would vehemently disagree with your hypothesis Nukuleka! :)

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  42. edhunter (434 comments) says:

    http://www.fasterlouder.com.au/news/37985/Lostprophets-Ian-Watkins-sentenced-to-35-years-for-extremely-distressing-crimes

    I don’t know what to make of this. Yes I’m glad he’s got 35yrs, if you’re not going to have a death penalty this is the next best thing for a crime that isn’t murder.
    But after witnessing some of the wet bus ticket sentences issued this year in NZ it makes we wonder what you’d have to do to get a sentence even close to this here.
    And did his fame have a part to do with the severity of the sentence?

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  43. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    Time we hardened up here and realised that we cannot afford $90,000 a year for twenty + years for our shittiest folk.

    Time we realised a 10 cent bullet is much more cost-effective! :)

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  44. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    I just gave you an up Nuku. The phantom JB downer is here among us all>>>oh shit>>>what can we do?

    I attract him like a plague! :)

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  45. Longknives (4,040 comments) says:

    edhunter- This vile creature only got ten years
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/6497524/Turangi-child-sex-attacker-jailed-10-years

    Honestly- This vile scum will only be in his mid twenties when he gets out and is anybody prepared to bet against him attacking children again?

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  46. edhunter (434 comments) says:

    Oh what a scallywag you are JB, but I’m happy to bite if there was a CIR on reintroducing the Death Penalty I’d vote No because has all the others have shown the govt does the exact opposite of the wishes of the people.

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  47. mandk (684 comments) says:

    PaulEastBay @12.26

    I’ve never liked the idea of Royal Pardons for people who didn’t deserve to be criminalised in the first place.

    Why can’t people simply be exonerated? It’s a far more gracious thing to do.

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  48. edhunter (434 comments) says:

    Yep LK wet bus ticket.

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  49. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    I’d be happy to give him a quick release Longknives. 10 cents for the bullet and say $2000 for my work seems quite reasonable don’t you think considering what E&Y charge for shit advise to the JAFA’s? :)

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  50. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Nukuleka

    You start the process and get everyone a pardon then. Its not unjust ,its finally recognition of what his work enabled the Allies to achieve

    read the THE SECRET LIFE OF BLETCHLEY PARK – Sinclair McKay , this guy should have been knighted posthumously

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  51. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    That’s a particularly obtuse way of doing things edhunter..!

    But I really like your reasoning..!! :)

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  52. Longknives (4,040 comments) says:

    You won’t need to pay me if the piece of excrement comes anywhere near my family Johnboy…
    Imagine the howling and wailing from his loving ‘Whanau’ then- “He was a good boy!” “Colonialism is to blame!” “Waaah”

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  53. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    Have you spent the build up to the Xmas holidays reading old World War2 history stuff that all of us are aware of PEB or have you been watching old shit on Sky History channel? :)

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  54. Manolo (12,618 comments) says:

    From hero to zero: http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8775839/egypt-pm-declares-brotherhood-terrorist

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  55. Nostradamus (2,758 comments) says:

    Johnboy:

    This will bring a tear to your eye:

    Mikhail Kalashnikov, inventor of the world’s most popular assault rifle, the AK-47, a simple and durable weapon of war used by tens of millions in about 100 countries, has died. He was 94.

    He died today after a long illness, Elena Filatova, a spokeswoman at Kalashnikov Concern, the plant named after the inventor, said in an interview. He lived in Izhevsk in the Ural Mountains, the town that produces his rifles.

    Kalashnikov said he came up with the AK-47′s design while recuperating from wounds suffered when invading Germans shelled the tank he was driving during the Battle of Bryansk in 1941. He long insisted that his goal had been to design a rifle to help the Soviet Union fend off a German invasion – not to arm extremists or criminals.

    “I didn’t put it in the hands of bandits and terrorists, and it’s not my fault that it has mushroomed uncontrollably across the globe,” he said in 2006. “Can I be blamed that they consider it the most reliable weapon?”

    Sturdy and dependable, the AK-47 can fire 600 bullets a minute and is so easy to handle that Soviet schoolchildren were taught to assemble it with their eyes closed and child soldiers in African conflict zones are seen carrying them.

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  56. Manolo (12,618 comments) says:

    @Johnboy: Easy on the comments, my friend. At this pace you’ll be catching up soon with you know who.
    Happy Christmas to you and all fellow readers of this exceptional blog.

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  57. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    The jutting forehead, the receeding chin, the first time wearing of a shirt and tie on the advice of his lawyer. :)

    Nineteen years reduced to ten by concurrency??

    I’d just kill the bastard Longknives! :)

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  58. ShawnLH (1,877 comments) says:

    wat dabney opines:

    “Shall we also discuss Christianity’s long and barbaric history of bloody warfare, murder, oppression and cruelty, or will you shut up?”

    What would be the point of discussing your delusional fantasies?

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  59. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    Merry Xmas to you too Manolo! :)

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  60. Manolo (12,618 comments) says:

    Raurangi Marino drank between 20 and 30 bottles of beer before stumbling into the Turangi campground, assaulting and raping a five-year-old tourist.

    That savage animal deserves to rot in jail all his miserable life, not 10 lenient years.

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  61. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    JB

    How many people are aware of Bletchly Park? Without Turing our PC’s may be vastly different.. You know this but what he did was truly amazing

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  62. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    He will serve his time…with remission…supported by his whanau…who also regret his crime…even if he was a good boy…and they just can’t understand where he went wrong…etc..etc..etc!! :)

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  63. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    mandk

    I don’t think he could be exonerated because he was convicted, its not a moot point anyway guys dead. I believe its more official recognition for his war work anyway. They would never really aknownledge it because it was well known he was a homo

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  64. Manolo (12,618 comments) says:

    @Johnboy: If not P.G, who is giving you those thumbs down on Christmas Eve? LOL.

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  65. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    Christmas must be a bloody awful time of year – for JB that is – having to carve up one of his beloved harem. :cool:

    Anyway, have a very Merry Christmas everyone -including you atheists- and I hope you all have an enjoyable day or two.

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  66. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    We don’t educate folk in Aotearoa any more about history PEB. We teach them crap about Murri Taniwhas. None of the turds that pop up to decry the Yanks have even the slightest inkling of how many of them died to save our little islands from the Jap scum. Even less of the bastards have even half a clue about the research that occurred at Bletchly Park or Tube Alloys. :)

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  67. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    I’m having a bacon stuffed chook and a ham for xmas dinner Harriet. Love eating stuff that offends the bloody Prophet!

    Merry Xmas to you and all your family!!! :) :)

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  68. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Who have you upset JB? two down ticks for a very erudite comment

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  69. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    I’ve fired one Nostradamus. They are a heap of shit but reliable. Ideal for ragheads that are too dumb to clean a proper firearm. Give me an M14 anytime! :)

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  70. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    I am like a fresh turd to the blowfly that is the JB downthumb monster PEB. You will have noted that even speaking to me has attracted a flystrike on yourself! :)

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  71. Longknives (4,040 comments) says:

    “We don’t educate folk in Aotearoa any more about history PEB. We teach them crap about Murri Taniwhas”

    Someone actually posted a link here the other day from the Green Party stating that we must stop teaching ‘European’ History in schools and focus on Maori History…
    This from the likely future Government.
    RIP New Zealand- Get out while you still can…

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  72. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    Voting for the two-headed turtle that is chinless Cunliffe and chinless Norman will of course be the death of NZ as a real nation.

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  73. kowtow (6,690 comments) says:

    Turing was transferred from Bletchley during the war (1944)because he was suspected of molesting school boys at Luton Public library.
    No charges out of it though.

    He was sent to do more secret work at Hanslope Park,Buckinghamshire.

    Certainly an important genius,but somewhat flawed?

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  74. MH (558 comments) says:

    clearly writtten in The Book,forgive those sins against arse.

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  75. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Certainly an important genius,but somewhat flawed?

    Aren’t you all to a degree? I’m not of course my mother said so, but the rest of you have issues

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  76. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    we must stop teaching ‘European’ History in schools

    Thats so sad, its not “European History” its “history history” -

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  77. Fletch (5,719 comments) says:

    read the THE SECRET LIFE OF BLETCHLEY PARK

    Or, if you want to mix in a bit of fiction as well, read Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson.

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  78. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    The only flaw to my genius that I am aware of is a strange affection to the Ovine species! :)

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  79. Colville (1,770 comments) says:

    Fletch. Cryptonomicon is a freaking awesome book. Anathem by the same author is also a very deep fun read if you like that kinda speculative thing.

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  80. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    Now the really interesting thing that I have noted is the more I mention “The JB Downthumb Monster” the more downthumbs that I seem to get. I will now conduct another KB experiment: :)

    JB Downthumb Monster!
    JB Downthumb Monster!
    JB Downthumb Monster!
    JB Downthumb Monster!
    JB Downthumb Monster!
    JB Downthumb Monster!
    JB Downthumb Monster!
    JB Downthumb Monster!
    JB Downthumb Monster!
    JB Downthumb Monster!
    JB Downthumb Monster!
    JB Downthumb Monster!

    Etc..etc! :)

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  81. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    Only two so far team? You can all do better than that! Give it your best shot!! :)

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  82. Jack5 (4,216 comments) says:

    For the Wellingtonians cheering on the film industry troughers, there is excellent reading at :

    http://www.stephenfranks.co.nz/

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  83. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    There is something about Stephens teeth that worries me! :)

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  84. Nostradamus (2,758 comments) says:

    Johnboy:

    Then you’d better not look at Helen Clark’s teeth! I wouldn’t want to be responsible for you having nightmares on Christmas Eve after all!

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  85. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    You can be equally worried about nice teeth and nasty teeth Nostradamus! :)

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  86. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Have a good Xmas all you strange internet dwellers.

    Been well entertained this year most of the time, seriously disturbed a few times

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  87. kowtow (6,690 comments) says:

    Flawed “Aren’t you all ,to a degree”

    We’re all flawed:and tomorrow ,I’ll be floored.

    Merry Christmas.

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  88. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    Anyway It’s a Dad’s army Christmas Special at 7:00 on Jones so I think I’ll bugger off and watch that! :)

    Merry Xmas to you PEB, kowtow, Nostradamus, my future Groom/Bride and the flowergirl and everybody else except for that bastard that gives me the downthumbs!!! …..I’ll hunt you down and kill you slowly asshole :)

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  89. Steve (North Shore) (4,318 comments) says:

    Johnboy has a stalker, maybe more than one. Have a look around – who is not here today? He is number one wimp.
    The other two are probably schoolteachers who have just found Kiwiblog on their new iPhones. New identities so they are not connected with the usual IP address.

    The strange ones PEB? – the rest of us are normal. Well except a few.

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  90. Steve (North Shore) (4,318 comments) says:

    Right now is fine BBQ time, the breeze has dropped, so outside for some wine and fumes of dead animal meat cooking.

    Thanks to the host DPF and helpers, thanks to the lefties and righties, thanks to the wreckers and haters, even those who have got the shits with Kiwiblog.

    Enjoy Xmas eve

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  91. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    Merry Xmas to you too Steve (North Shore) …..and to you Kea…. whatever lonely nest you are currently squawking in.

    And to Reid and to FES and even to Lucia and Judith and Penny.

    Most of all Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year to You Yvette!! :) :) :)

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  92. Steve (North Shore) (4,318 comments) says:

    5 min and no Downthumb Monster Johnboy.
    I upvote quite often, but rarely downvote, downvoting is childish

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  93. MH (558 comments) says:

    others at Betchley park were Tommy Flowers who hepled design the first programmable computer Colossus with valve technology and the mathematician Willim Tutte who worked on de ciphering the German lorenz code system.

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  94. nasska (9,489 comments) says:

    Two South Auckland girls are getting ready for bed on Christmas Eve. One goes to say goodnight to her flatmate, and sees her in her room lying above the covers, spreadeagled and naked with a plate of biscuits and a glass of milk at her crotch.

    When the first girl asks “What are you doing?”, the naked girl says “I don’t know if it’s a dream or not, but Santa always comes, eats the biscuits and milk and then we have some wonderful hot sex.”
    The other girl says “I’m really horny, I’m going to try it too.”

    Next morning, the first girl is in the kitchen all aglow, whistling and making breakfast. When the second girl comes in, she looks like death warmed over.

    The first girl says, “It happened again – Santa came, ate the biscuits and milk, and we made glorious love. Look, he left me a note; ‘Merry Christmas Tracey, thank you for being a naughty but nice girl again. See you next Christmas, Santa’.”

    The other girl says “I feel like shit, look at my note: ‘Thanks, you were great – from Rudolph, Dasher, Prancer, Vixen…’”

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  95. Tom Jackson (2,235 comments) says:

    Al-Andalus is a fiction brought up by those sympathetic to Islam. It wasn’t the peaches and cream it is claimed to be.
    http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=1364

    No, but it was still the most religiously tolerant society on earth at the time.

    And you have to do better than an article from a derp journal. Genuine academic sources only, please.

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  96. Tom Jackson (2,235 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson, your statement left me dumbfounded.

    That’s because you are a racist lunatic.

    CHristians and Coptic Christians are under constant attack in Middle East countries. Even Prince Charles admitted a f>ew days ago that only a small percentage of the Middle East was Christian now because of these attacks.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25426155

    The media won’t report it, but just pop over to Jihad Watch and read the stories. You’ll soon see how wrong you are.

    Jihad watch? Jeez…

    As I said above, none of this is evidence of some organised Islamic assault on Christianity.

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  97. Tom Jackson (2,235 comments) says:

    Here’s a decent paper on the matter, which pretty much expresses my view of it.

    http://civicrm.wcfia.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/CohenMarc_0.pdf

    Note the author is a notable Jewish scholar, and a sceptic of the traditional picture of the convivencia. Note especially the last couple of pages which demonstrate what he thinks about views such as those promulgated on this blog.

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  98. Don the Kiwi (1,316 comments) says:

    Merry Christmas all you kiwibloggers :-)

    That includes all the godbotherer godbotherers, the ordinary godbotherers – including my religio-kin ;-), all the nasty anti-godders, the nice atheists and agnostices, the really good buggers who just comment rationally, and especially Johnboy, and our best wishes that he gains his victory over those who dispute his right to marry his favouriet ewe (eeeewwoooo).
    Oh, and I almost forgot- aii the queers, homos, turdburglars, ‘hey-diddle-dandle-me-daddy-was-a-candle’ lesos, in fact to all who do their best to lead a life not impinging on the rights or lefts of others.

    And you too DPF – you’re in a category of your :-) (NY marathonner)

    God bless you all.

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  99. skyblue (193 comments) says:

    It is now Xmas Day. Santa said he was ahead of schedule.

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