Helen Milner

December 20th, 2013 at 2:00 pm by David Farrar

Her 82 year old mother says she is evil or mentally unwell. Her children hate her, and she has got one of them arrested by perjuring herself. She killed her husband. She started stealing at school, she forged a letter to her employer, she stole from an employer, and she stole from her sick aunt.

Can’t say I see any reason she should ever be let out. May her sentence for murder have a very long non-parole period.

Her only redeeming benefit is her stupidity.  She spent years telling people she wanted to kill her husband, and even tried to pay her sons and in-laws to hire someone to kill him. The fact she almost got away with it in an indictment on the original Police investigation. Her sister-in-law and the coroner deserve our praise for their efforts to get justice for Nisbet and see this evil woman put away.

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143 Responses to “Helen Milner”

  1. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Good points DPF, I would give her at least 15 years non parole but I believe our justice system will be probably give her around 10 years with 7 non parole, i.e. a slap on the wrist. She is an evil vindictive bitch and deserves what she gets

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  2. unitedtribes (24 comments) says:

    Imagine getting to be her cell mate for 20 years

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  3. James Stephenson (1,885 comments) says:

    Also, she gave 12 people the opportunity to restore our faith in Christchurch juries.

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  4. Nick R (443 comments) says:

    Rowan – She will not get 7 years non-parole. A life sentence is mandatory for murder and the minimum non-parole period is 10 years. Check the Sentencing Act 2002 if you like.

    But hey, I’m sure your beliefs about the justice system are based on something too. Maybe not facts, but something.

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  5. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    The Milner case exposes the incompetence and arrogance of the police and just how useless IPCA is AGAIN!!!

    I’m impressed that the jury acquitted her of one count of attempted murder. Shows that they convicted her on sound evidence in the others.

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  6. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Nick R
    Just comparing it with the Gay Oakes case and my lack of faith in the justice system, I can’t see her getting much more than 10 years, might just be my lack of faith in the justice system. I thought the sentance given to Mark Pakenham for the manslaughter of Sara Neithe and given she has never been found woefully pathetic, yes I know it was a manslaughter conviction not murder but still woefully inadequate.

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  7. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    “Her only redeeming benefit is her stupidity.”

    She has all the attributes of a dog except loyalty.

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  8. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    JS
    Why you stupid people base all your cynical views entirely around the outcome of the Bain case is ridiculous.
    That verdict was entirely correct the crown case is nothing but a train wreck and demonstrated to be so since 2007.
    But I suppose you idiots know better don’t you?, were you there?
    Get over it, will you start a hate campaign like the counterspin witchhunt when the Lundy case follows suit later this year? and no I’m not campaigning for Lundys innocence. As to whether or he did it or not, who can f…ing tell!

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  9. Raphael (61 comments) says:

    Can someone contact Mr Farrar and tell him I’m able to access a coupla things on the site that I shouldn’t be able to?
    (for eg. I can see what the next 3 stories to be published are…..don’t worry can’t edit them)

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  10. Lance (2,311 comments) says:

    @Rowan
    Got an English translation to what you just splurged forth?

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  11. freedom101 (439 comments) says:

    After the acquittal of Ewen McDonald I felt that no one would ever again be convicted of murder in a NZ court because if Ewen McDonald wasn’t guilty then no one could be guilty. Then along comes Helen Milner.

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  12. backster (2,000 comments) says:

    Of interest to me was that some of the hearsay admissions allowed in this case seemed identical in type to some dis-allowed in the Bain retrial.

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  13. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    If you want to get away with murder, “tell nobody nothing.” Ewan McDonald knew that, Helen Milner did not.

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  14. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Freedom
    There is no case against Ewen McDonald, no evidence at all, significant evidence against and just because there is no other obvious suspect doesn’t make MacDonald the ‘default’ killer.
    The Helen Milner case is open and shut.

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  15. dime (8,778 comments) says:

    “Imagine getting to be her cell mate for 20 years”

    Murderers dont have cell mates

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  16. Scott Chris (5,682 comments) says:

    Not sure how safe this verdict is considering the press were calling her ‘the black widow’ throughout the trial.

    One thing’s for sure – her whole family seems poisonous. Maybe the poor bugger of a husband did pop his own clogs to get away from them.

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  17. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Jackinabox

    No one takes the stand in their own defence these days, Even if they wanted to they would probably be advised against it by their lawyer so this does not make you the accused ‘guilty’. Vivienne Thomas didn’t come across well in cross examination and it is well known by 95% of the population that neither she or her husband were guilty of anything.

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  18. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    Don’t worry Scott Chris, the press demonised Scott Watson pre-trial and he’s still banged-up.

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  19. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    She is not mentally unwell, she is a cookie-cutter psychopath.

    Honestly, read any of Robert Hare’s works on the character of psychopathy, and you will see Helen Milner staring back at you.

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  20. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    After the acquittal of Ewen McDonald I felt that no one would ever again be convicted of murder in a NZ court because if Ewen McDonald wasn’t guilty then no one could be guilty.

    Everyone thinks McDonald was the killer, and on the balance of probabilities it was likely him. However, the law requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and the crown had no actual evidence to show that McDonald had killed Scott Guy.

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  21. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    I know all that Rowan, I read all the Thomas case books. It makes me shudder when I think about how rotten the cops and Crown lawyers were in that case.

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  22. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Tom
    Read Mike Whites Who Killed Scott Guy, there is significant evidence against McDonald being the perpetrator, White shows how utterly implausible it is that he is the killer. The police arguments wouldn’t reach BOP let alone BRD.

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  23. bc (1,252 comments) says:

    You summed it up well DPF.
    My faith in the police has been seriously eroded this year. I know that they do well 99% of the time, but there has been some big stuff-ups this year. It is unbelievable that someone as stupid as Helen Milner would have got away with it, if it wasn’t for the sister-in-law.

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  24. Forrest (11 comments) says:

    In an ideal world, I can think of no better partner for Helen Milner than Mark Lundy – it would be a match made in Heaven.

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  25. bc (1,252 comments) says:

    lol Forrest – very true!
    They would both be going to sleep with one eye open that’s for sure. And you wouldn’t be eating any home cooked meals.

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  26. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    Everyone thinks McDonald was the killer, and on the balance of probabilities it was likely him.

    The police had no evidence against McDonald to show that he actually committed the crime. Their case was so weak, it shouldn’t have been put on trial in the first place. And the argument for him being the killer is demolished by the fact that the effluent ponds have since been drained and no trace has been found of the missing puppies or the boots.

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  27. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    Not sure how safe this verdict is considering the press were calling her ‘the black widow’ throughout the trial.

    If you actually followed the trial, the monicker came from her workmates after she was pestering them for ways of killing her husband.

    One thing’s for sure – her whole family seems poisonous.

    On what grounds? Her family (Parents as well as children) went to the police after Nisbet’s murder to voice their concerns about her.

    Maybe the poor bugger of a husband did pop his own clogs to get away from them.

    It’s far more likely that you are fucked in the head.

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  28. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Agreed Metcalph
    The crown case against McDonald is comedy stuff. The only ‘evidence’ is that he was an arsehole and had a nasty side having committed the previous crimes against Scott and Kylee which he is currently imprisoned for. Many seem to have him as the ‘default’ killer because of the previous crimes and that there is no other suspect. This convienently puts aside the lack of any actual evidence of him being the killer.

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  29. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    No one takes the stand in their own defence these days,

    Wrong. Clayton Weatherston. Mark Lundy. Jeremy George McLaughlin (murder of Jade Bayliss)

    Vivienne Thomas didn’t come across well in cross examination and it is well known by 95% of the population that neither she or her husband were guilty of anything.

    Vivienne Thomas was not charged with anything. You are thinking of Linda Chamberlain perhaps?

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  30. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    Of interest to me was that some of the hearsay admissions allowed in this case seemed identical in type to some dis-allowed in the Bain retrial.

    What hearsay statements are you talking about? The case is interesting in that the evidence against the Helen Milner was testimony by witnesses rather than forensic evidence. Normally I run screaming from convicting on this type of evidence but considering that the witnesses were not just her in-laws but her own family and her workmates, I’m quite comfortable with the conviction.

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  31. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Very few cases Metcalph, McLaughlin and Weatherston had no chance without doing so, it probably didn’t help their case either.
    Yes Vivienne wasn’t directly charged but she was implicated as having been an accessory after the fact and having fed the baby which she was innocent of, and yes Lindy Chamberlain is another example.

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  32. muggins (2,903 comments) says:

    Rowan,
    Helen Milner may have gotten away with murder had it not been for Nisbet’s sister Lee-Anne Cartier’s amateur detective work.
    But at least the jury at Milner’s trial did not believe Nisbet committed suicide, nor did they believe he wrote any suicide notes, unlike the jury at David Bain’s trial, who obviously did believe it was possible Robin Bain might have typed that suicide note and then committed suicide. One would have thougt at least some members of that jury would have seen through all the smoke and mirrors but not one of them did.
    But at least they didn’t find that David Bain was innocent. It took a Canadian judge to do that. How he managed to come to that decision I will never know. I mean when you look at all the evidence it is so bleedin’ obvoius that David Bain murdered his family.
    In the Lundy case Lundy Mark Lundy probably murdered his wife and daughter using an axe from his shed. But apart from that brain matter on his shirt all the evidence against him is circumstantial and one can be sure his defence team will have more than one expert who will dispute that brain matter. So we could end up with another murderer back on the streets before he has served his time. And if Mark Lundy is found not guilty will he claim compensation? If he does we can be sure of one thing. A certain Canadian judge won’t be called upon to decide whether or not Lundy is innocent.
    So far as Macdonald is concerned I just find it quite a coincidence that a burglar wearing dive boots and carrying a shotgun stlole those puppies at the exact time that Scott Guy happened to get up that morning and that same burglar , instead of taking off down the road, decided to wait around and murder Scott Guy by shooting him with that shotgun.

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  33. Chuck Bird (4,415 comments) says:

    Has anyone read that misandrist Catriona MacLennon on Len Brown?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11175342

    I would not be surprised if she could not find some excuse for this evil ugly bitch.

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  34. Tookinator (195 comments) says:

    Can’t be that bright. Claiming suicide to get the insurance money.
    Correct me if i’m wrong, but insurance companies won’t pay out for suicide.

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  35. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Piss off Muggins, as usual you have a pile of unsubstantiated bull, with a lot of your ‘spin’ added. Give it up, the Bain case is dead, you have lost get over it, Kent is about to get what he deserves for publishing all the defamatory garbage about Karam et al.
    How many times have you been wrong with your predictions to date old bean? and how many people have you convinced based on your arguments to change their opinion of a case? I am only after one word answers to these questions.
    Whatever ‘coincidences’ you can make, there is still no factual evidence of guilt hence a ‘not guilty’ verdict

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  36. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    My faith in the police has been seriously eroded this year. I know that they do well 99% of the time, but there has been some big stuff-ups this year. It is unbelievable that someone as stupid as Helen Milner would have got away with it, if it wasn’t for the sister-in-law.

    “The police didn’t give a shit!” Lee-Anne Cartier, the private person who cracked the case.

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  37. Chuck Bird (4,415 comments) says:

    “Correct me if i’m wrong, but insurance companies won’t pay out for suicide.”

    You are wrong. There is usually a two year limit. I read somewhere her husband had recently passed that limit.

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  38. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Isn’t it funny that despite the endless flow of garbage from the motormouth above about how daddy ‘didn’t’ commit suicide, that he like the crown at the retrial has no proof of any kind or any other explanation of his death other than as suicide.
    It was hilarious at the retrial where the crown brought in further witnesses to try to attempt to discredit their own ‘expert’ witness and tried to get him to change his evidence that the shot was close contact, which they already knew anyway but tried to dispute and get across the alternative view as their only ‘evidence’ that he didn’t commit suicide. The defence showed that suicide was easy and required no contortions at all. Yet the idiots still ‘know’ that he didn’t do it.

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  39. cha (3,540 comments) says:

    Correct me if i’m wrong, but insurance companies won’t pay out for suicide.

    A suicide clause included in Mr Nisbet’s policy expired three months before he died.

    http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/milner-unaware-husband-s-life-insurance-court-told-5776341

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  40. Snarkle (118 comments) says:

    Rowan, is there available a video on-line showing exactly how it was possible to RB to have committed suicide and obtained the known bullet entry point and trajectory? That way we can all see exactly how easy it was and not involving any contortions. Thanks in advance.

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  41. Jaffa (67 comments) says:

    The sister who did the police work, when they wouldn’t, deserves to be reimbursed out of the Police Budget!
    Apparently it nearly crippled her financially.

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  42. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    Women’s prisons are shocking places, and probably much harder than male prisons. It is really heavy going.

    I would say by her prolonged history of dishonesty and an apparent lack of remorse for her previous actions, (stealing from an Aunt), that she has problems far beyond simple greed.

    With a bit of luck she will be assessed by the Mason Clinic. I am somewhat surprised the sentencing judge did not ask for a psychiatric assessment to be done.

    I doubt she can ever be rehabilitated, and will simply enjoy manipulating the other women she is exposed to. She’ll probably enjoy prison.

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  43. Tom Jackson (2,262 comments) says:

    The police had no evidence against McDonald to show that he actually committed the crime.

    Yep. What I said.

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  44. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    cha (3,096 comments) says:
    December 20th, 2013 at 4:39 pm

    A suicide clause included in Mr Nisbet’s policy expired three months before he died.

    How very convenient!! I must check mine and make sure I don’t have the same clause!

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  45. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Snarkle, yes I know that RB committed suicide, I’ve never believed otherwise since I originally read about the case about 10 years ago. Anyway this is not a Bain thread despite the senile goat trying to turn it into one.
    Helen Milner deserves what she gets, she has dug her own grave here, her own mother has disowned her and even her sons hate her.

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  46. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Judith from what I’ve heard she is a calculating pyschopath and there is no suggestion of mental illness or psychiatric issues.

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  47. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    “The sister who did the police work, when they wouldn’t, deserves to be reimbursed out of the Police Budget!
    Apparently it nearly crippled her financially.”

    Once I did a private prosecution when the cops refused to act. Got a conviction and in the end the cops reimbursed me. An ex-gracia payment they reckoned. They aren’t all shits!

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  48. wikiriwhis business (3,302 comments) says:

    “The sister who did the police work, when they wouldn’t, deserves to be reimbursed out of the Police Budget!
    Apparently it nearly crippled her financially.”

    Imagine if she had of used professional help.

    I think she must of had a fascinating education in her research.

    She could probably run her own investigation business now.

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  49. Snarkle (118 comments) says:

    Rowan, just say the video doesn’t exist if it doesn’t. Put it in General Debate if you prefer. Just post a link.

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  50. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Snarkle

    WTF? I never said it didn’t exist.

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  51. Snarkle (118 comments) says:

    Sigh. Does it exist? Can I see it? Come to think of it, did Binnie see it?

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  52. Scott Chris (5,682 comments) says:

    It’s far more likely that you are fucked in the head.

    You missed the point dickhead. I’m talking about a person’s right to a fair trial which is compromised with an irresponsible media adopting and repeating such a negative appellation in my opinion.

    As it happens I think it quite likely she did poison her husband which you’d have gathered from my previous post if you weren’t too stupid to recognise facetiousness.

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  53. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    You missed the point dickhead.

    No I didn’t, liar. You made a defamatory attack on Nisbet to wit:

    One thing’s for sure – her whole family seems poisonous. Maybe the poor bugger of a husband did pop his own clogs to get away from them.

    That’s why I called you a fuckwit. That you are no longer willing to defend this bit of poison and instead lie about what it was in response to demonstrates damningly your lack of ethics.

    I’m talking about a person’s right to a fair trial which is compromised with an irresponsible media adopting and repeating such a negative appellation in my opinion.

    The news media has a right to report that such an appellation was made. Moreover I just looked at the media reports and the first usage of Black Widow in the headlines as a direct reference to Helen Milner was made _after_ the verdict was announced. Once again, you are a fuckwit.

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  54. Sponge (108 comments) says:

    “Once I did a private prosecution when the cops refused to act”.

    Hello Mr McCreedy :)

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  55. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @Rowan (1,313 comments) says:
    December 20th, 2013 at 5:03 pm

    Yes, she does fit the profile of a psychopath, which is why I suggested she should have a psychiatric assessment, and referral to the Mason Clinic, who are best versed to deal with her – it can also assist if she is unable to reach to a point where release is safe.

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  56. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    “Once I did a private prosecution when the cops refused to act”.

    Hello Mr McCreedy

    Yes sponge/bludger, what have you done to expose the dirty cops and their rotten corruption, nothing I’ll bet?

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  57. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    Yes, she does fit the profile of a psychopath, which is why I suggested she should have a psychiatric assessment, and referral to the Mason Clinic

    The Mason Clinic is for mentally ill and intellectually disabled people, not for people with personality disorders.

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  58. Sponge (108 comments) says:

    jackinabox – lighten up for christs sake.

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  59. Reid (15,594 comments) says:

    The Mason Clinic is for mentally ill and intellectually disabled people, not for people with personality disorders.

    What’s the difference between someone mentally ill and someone with a personality disorder?

    None as far as I know. What’s your mileage?

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  60. Sponge (108 comments) says:

    And jackinabox I do not get involved with the police. My only interaction with them has been a speeding ticket about 10 years ago.

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  61. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Judith
    I think there are several here who would benefit from a referral to the Mason Clinic, i.e. the mentally unstable ex office bumboy and the f…wit dentist are the first two which come to mind.

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  62. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    What’s the difference between someone mentally ill and someone with a personality disorder?

    Quite a lot of difference. Sufficient to say that people with personality disorders are not treated at mental hospitals and related institutions.

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  63. Reid (15,594 comments) says:

    Quite a lot of difference. Sufficient to say that people with personality disorders are not treated at mental hospitals and related institutions.

    Some of them are, actually. e.g. borderline personality people are often treated there because it’s the only possible regime that has any chance whatsoever of success because it’s such an insidious dis-ease.

    But nevertheless, the treatment regimes aren’t the question, because borderline personality people often don’t get ‘cured’ through the current treatment ‘wisdom’ which should say something to those who work in the field but apparently doesn’t. Or maybe it’s the ignorant idiots who make the policy in the relevant govt depts – who knows what the real root cause is, not my field.

    But the question was, why do you think what this lady has is not a mental disorder? She is clearly not compos mentis, even if she can articulate herself.

    My point is: the lefty PC psychobabble agenda told us institutions of the past we had for such people were vewy vewy bad so we needed, if we were at all humane, to let them out into the community. But what the lefties didn’t tell us was, that some people, with conditions such as hers, still needed to be confined. They left that bit out.

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  64. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    “Her 82 year old mother says she is evil or mentally unwell. Her children hate her, and she has got one of them arrested by perjuring herself. She killed her husband. She started stealing at school, she forged a letter to her employer, she stole from an employer, and she stole from her sick aunt.”

    I suspect once she gets out she will be offered a high place on the Green or Labour list! :)

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  65. thedavincimode (6,131 comments) says:

    Not your type JB?

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  66. Sidey (231 comments) says:

    Some people are just shit human beings. Is it their fault that they’re born destined to be shit human beings? No. Is is the fault of the rest of society? No. Should we leave these shit human beings in society to cause damage and misery to many others? No.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one. Lock these sacks of shit away. In the future there may well be an “anti-shit-person” inoculation that every newborn is given. Until then, protect the rest of us from them. If that doesn’t sound fair, feel free to put your hand up to have them live with you under full responsibility. The queue starts over there.

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  67. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    I thought the Green and Labour parties found a place for the shit Sidey.

    My local MP being the epitome of a piece of shit. Eh Trev? :)

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  68. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ metcalph (1,175 comments) says:
    December 20th, 2013 at 6:07 pm

    The Mason Clinic deals with people that are diagnosed as Psychopathic in our criminal justice system.

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  69. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ metcalph (1,175 comments) says:
    December 20th, 2013 at 6:57 pm

    That is not correct. The Mason clinic does deal with such people who are incarcerated and diagnosed accordingly. I have been involved with at least 11 referrals to them under such circumstances. Although I no longer work in the same area I am assured by past colleagues that this is still the case.

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  70. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    You’re a good sort Judith. You’re much prettier than Helen Milner too. :)

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  71. peterwn (2,939 comments) says:

    IMO the failure to investigate the murder properly is the least of the three police blunders. IMO the other two blunders were far more serious as they impacted on the liberty of an innocent person ie Helen’s son. The blunders were:
    1. Arresting and seeking remand in custody of the son on the mere say-so of a woman with a proven history of dishonesty.
    2. Taking three days to arrange his release when the Police finally became of the true situation and had the woman charged. The Police should have immediately arranged his release – going straight to a duty judge if need be.

    Regarding (2) I hope he sues the police as well as the woman.

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  72. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ Johnboy (12,147 comments) says:
    December 20th, 2013 at 8:04 pm

    A good sort of what??? I’ve always been suspicious of that comment.

    Well I’ve never tried to kill the ol’ boy, so I’m ahead there – I think Ms Milner has big problems, and probably has had them all her life. I watched the TV coverage of the trial – very little emotion shown there – which tells a story or two.
    Most mothers would be hysterical if their own children took the stand to say what hers did – it didn’t seem to bother her in the slightest.

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  73. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ peterwn (2,638 comments) says:
    December 20th, 2013 at 8:08 pm

    Yes, I agree with your comments. The police were extremely tardy when there was no need for it.

    I doubt Ms Milner would be worth suing – did she actually receive the insurance money – if she did I suspect the insurance company could apply to have anything remaining returned – however, no doubt whatever she did have will have been paid in lawyers fees – would be interesting to know what she does have left.

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  74. Nostalgia-NZ (4,697 comments) says:

    ‘Snarkle (111 comments) says:
    December 20th, 2013 at 4:55 pm
    Rowan, is there available a video on-line showing exactly how it was possible to RB to have committed suicide and obtained the known bullet entry point and trajectory? That way we can all see exactly how easy it was and not involving any contortions. Thanks in advance.’

    It’s already available on the internet, taken at the trial. Need any more help?

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  75. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Bloody hell Judith. I was only trying to compliment you on your lovely personality and your beauty and you jump down my throat!

    I suggest you get some Phenergan for the ol’ boy before he wise’s up to you! :)

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  76. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ Johnboy (12,150 comments) says:
    December 20th, 2013 at 8:26 pm

    He is wise – that’s why he’s my ‘ol boy’!

    I was actually joking – can’t you see me smiling???

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  77. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    I’m not very perceptive except when dealing with sheep Judith.

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  78. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    “So far as Macdonald is concerned I just find it quite a coincidence that a burglar wearing dive boots and carrying a shotgun stlole those puppies at the exact time that Scott Guy happened to get up that morning and that same burglar , instead of taking off down the road, decided to wait around and murder Scott Guy by shooting him with that shotgun.”

    This is the dive boots imprints that were larger than the pair that McDonald had previously owned and thrown out a couple of years beforehand, and also “that shotgun” are you referring to the farm shotgun which was incapable of firing repeat shots like the three heard by the witness?
    Muggins again shows what an amateur sleuth he really is.

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  79. muggins (2,903 comments) says:

    Rowan,
    At David Bain’s first trial the pathologist Dr Dempster said it was possible that Robin Bain could have committed suicide but that he thought it highly unlikely that he did and he said that again at the retrial. So nothing new there.
    It is obvious Robin Bain would not have fallen where he did if he had committed suicide by shooting himself in the left temple using a rifle with a silencer attached while standing with one foot on a chair by the alcove curtains. Not possible
    Virtually all the evidence points to David Bain as being the perpetrator. And the fact that he has told so many lies should give you a clue. If he was innocent he wouldn’t need to tell lies.
    You say the case is over. Does that mean that you believe David Bain will not be putting his claim for compensation ” back on the table?” I won’t believe the case is over until either he comes out and says that or else he goes ahead with his claim and has it turned down.
    So far as Joe Karam is concerned, well he can sue as many people as he likes but it still doesn’t make him right. David Bain almost certainly murdered his family.

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  80. muggins (2,903 comments) says:

    Rowan,
    Re Macdonald.
    Those dive boots could have been worn by Macdonald. His wife does not remember whether or not she threw them out.
    Only one witness heard three shots and we know how witnesses can get things wrong.
    As I have already said I find it a strange coincidence that a burglar wearing dive boots and carrying a shotgun happened to steal those puppies at the precise time that Scott Guy got up that morning and then, instead of taking off down the road, used that shotgun to murder Scott Guy. Why would that burglar shoot Scott Guy?

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  81. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Muggins
    Why should anyone take the ramblings of a mentally unstable arrogant fool such as yourself seriously?
    Yes/no have you ever convinced anyone else to change their opinion of the case yet?
    Right ‘obvious’ isn’t it, the only thing thats actually ‘obvious’ Muggins is that you are again factually incorrect and way out of your depth on this one!
    In regards to Dr Dempster his initial examination and post mortem notes had one conclusion as to the cause of death, what do you think this was?
    Very rich of you to suggest others are lying when practically every sentance posted by you contains multiple lies. You actually have no evidence at all that isn’t totally misrepresented or proven incorrect multiple times. Why is that?
    You don’t have the measurements to support your arguments about where Robin ‘would’ have fallen so this claim is just more speculation, based on the comical computer simulation by Marzuka, another fail here.
    And you still have no answer to how he was shot by someone else, all the evidence points to suicide, the only ‘not possible’ is that the shot was inflicted by someone else. The only crown argument at the retrial against suicide was trying to misrepresent the distance as to which the shot was fired from when they already knew that it was a close contact shot.
    Again you are 0.000000% convincing.

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  82. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    I’m not claiming to know who killed Scott Guy or their reasons for doing so, the murder scenario put forward against Ewen McDonald was laughable with no evidence at all.
    Were the 3 witnesses who heard shots fired at 5am all mistaken to? McDonald had around 5-10 minutes to do what is alleged, get to and from the scene without being spotted, dispose of all the evidence and get back in time to be changed and unlock the milking shed at 5.02am.
    This case is so ridiculous, he should never have been charged in the first place.

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  83. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    The Mason Clinic deals with people that are diagnosed as Psychopathic in our criminal justice system.

    The criminal justice system does not diagnose people as psychopathic and psychopathy is not a disease of the mind. You can stop bullshitting now.

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  84. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    Those dive boots could have been worn by Macdonald.

    And pigs could fly. The dive boots brought by MacDonald had a different tread pattern than the dive boots made at the scene of the killing. Considerably stronger evidence is needed to put MacDonald there on the basis of probailities.

    His wife does not remember whether or not she threw them out.

    She thinks she might have. Nobody recalls seeing them after MacDonald says they were thrown out.

    Only one witness heard three shots and we know how witnesses can get things wrong.

    Factually wrong. *Two* witnesses (out of four) heard three shots. The third witness woke up and then heard two shots, which is consistent with being woken up by a shot and then hearing two shots.

    As I have already said I find it a strange coincidence that a burglar wearing dive boots and carrying a shotgun happened to steal those puppies at the precise time that Scott Guy got up that morning and then, instead of taking off down the road, used that shotgun to murder Scott Guy. Why would that burglar shoot Scott Guy?

    He didn’t take off down the road. A vehicle was seen near the scene of the murder and never traced. And the scenario the police claimed for MacDonald was even more stranger. At the precise time of the murder, MacDonald was deactivating the burglar alarm at his house. He would have to bike several hundred metres in the darkness unobserved by any witnesses (the same witnesses who saw the vehicle), take the puppies, put them in a sack, shoot Scott Guy, bike to the nearest effluent pond (with the puppies in the sack and the shotgun!), dump the puppies in the sack, the shotgun and dive boots, then bike back to his house (again without being seen) to his house and pretend his missus didn’t notice anything. All in the space of three minutes.

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  85. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    1. Arresting and seeking remand in custody of the son on the mere say-so of a woman with a proven history of dishonesty.

    There were two complainants, his mother and his ex-missus. And it wasn’t their say-so but actual text messages.

    2. Taking three days to arrange his release when the Police finally became of the true situation and had the woman charged. The Police should have immediately arranged his release – going straight to a duty judge if need be.

    I suspect what happened was that Helen was charged at the beginning of the weekend, the detectives then make arrangements to have Adam released before knocking off for the weekend, the arrangements they make doesn’t get carried out and the detectives don’t realize the mistake until they return on Monday.

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  86. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    IMO the failure to investigate the murder properly is the least of the three police blunders.

    Actually two blunders.

    1) The two constables called to the scene were suspicious of Helen Milner and took their concerns to the Senior Sergeant. He dismissed their concerns and considered it a suicide. Hence a crime scene investigation was not carried out.

    2) Several days later following a approach from Milner’s own family (!), two detectives are assigned to the case. They do not do a sufficient investigation (ie talk to the right people) among other things) and eventually conclude that the death was a suicide.

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  87. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    At her age the chances of her dying inside are reasonably high one would think…..hopefully sooner than later.

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  88. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Metcalph you are wasting your time with Muggins, he is not worth the time of day, and his arguments are so full of lies, misrepresentations and factual innaccuracies that you would be better of trying to teach a 5 year old.
    This idiot woud believe the police fairy story that he cycled to and from the scene without being seen by anyone or anyone noticing anything amiss.

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  89. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Metcalph
    One correction, on the police scenario he used the farm shotgun, so he had to find it, assemble it, and return and have it back and in its hiding place in three pieces, containing no trace of forensic evidence or having recently been used.

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  90. Nostalgia-NZ (4,697 comments) says:

    metcalph and Rowan, the puppies would have nothing to do with the murder – a red herring. The pity for the argument about draining the ponds, is that despite that it did belatedly happen there was never going to be any kind of result – maybe the wreck of something substantial like a tank could have been found, but not ‘puppy bones’ or a shotgun. I think the puppy bones was an attempt to gain ‘further’ dislike of MacDonald – but if he hated his brother-in-law as much as some would have us believe – then there would be no reason for him to be stealing puppies when his intention was to kill Scott.

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  91. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    Nostalgia

    I suspect the Prosecution pursued the drowned puppies in the Effluent Pond angle because they had been forbidden to raise the hammered innocent bobby calves angle by the Court of Appeal.

    One other thing about the murder scenario that’s occurred to me: it requires some planning to get it right. Whereas MacDonald’s crimes were sneak in there, do shit and sneak out. Even the bobby calves atrocity was carried out because he originally planned to empty a milk tank but found it was already empty.

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  92. tvb (3,945 comments) says:

    The Helen Milner prosecution was a more difficult case to win than McDonald but I feel the prosecutor in the Milner case is more competent.

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  93. tvb (3,945 comments) says:

    When the dust settles I think the Crown should make an ex gratia payment to the sister in law for her work.

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  94. Dennis Horne (2,059 comments) says:

    @Moron. You know who you are! You’re always worth a laugh…

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  95. Nostalgia-NZ (4,697 comments) says:

    metcalph. I’m sure the prosecution pursued the ‘drowned puppies’ for the reason you say. Overall it was because they lacked evidence but were ‘sold’ on MacDonald as the guilty party. They had a fairly strong case against one of the neighbours as you will recall, whereas with MacDonald they must have been motivated by the fact they ‘knew’ it was him. Probably lost sight of the lack of evidence because of his known conduct that fell out of the cupboard. I don’t know why the COA ruled the ‘innocent bobby calves’ evidence out. It would be satisfying if it wasn’t just because of it’s obvious likely prejudicial impact but because the COA was able to see the framework of the Crown case was lacking in evidence but high on inference – hence the reasons why MacDonald’s ex wife and sisterinlaw were led into the Court by a different door to give a message to the Jury of the ‘danger’ he presented to them. We also later have had the use of the word ‘innocent’ in reference to the dead calves, killed for revenge clearly but despatched in a manner common among farmers from what I recall reading.

    Overall, it’s left some of the public ‘convinced’ of MacDonald’s guilt because he burnt down a house and so on. In some ways that has tendered to the small percentage who rather than look to be critical of facts and evidence look for the ‘surrounding’ framework that apparently indicates guilt. We need to be moving on from that.

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  96. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    “I’m not claiming to know who killed Scott Guy or their reasons for doing so, the murder scenario put forward against Ewen McDonald was laughable with no evidence at all.

    This case is so ridiculous, he should never have been charged in the first place.”

    That’s the new Zealand police for ya, laughable, ridiculous, and perverse. The are so laughable they’ve taken to suing each other for defamation.

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  97. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ metcalph (1,180 comments) says:
    December 20th, 2013 at 9:33 pm

    You need to get yourself informed. Once a person has been convicted and sentenced, if their criminal activity or even their behaviour whilst incarcerated causes concern, they are assessed by the Psychiatric/Psychological Service in the Department of Corrections. If the behaviour is such that psychopathy is suspected, the offender is tested for, and if relevant diagnosed. A treatment/management plan is then put into place, and they are monitored accordingly.

    I know this from professional experience, however, if you don’t wish to believe me, then the only public way I know of that you can check those details is in the case of Bain – his medical records were made public which showed he was assessed by more than one psychiatrist – including having brain scans etc to assess whether he was a psychopath – and all tests came back negative. Despite his having no psychiatric/mental illness he received weekly visits from the services to assist with PTSD and memory recovery.

    Can I suggest that instead of calling people bullshitters, you actually pull your head in and check your information, because you are wrong – very wrong.

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  98. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ jackinabox (229 comments) says:
    December 21st, 2013 at 7:42 am

    There are no doubts that MacDonald was an idiot with a vengeful streak, however, as has been said, there was nothing that indicated he was the murderer of Scott, and plenty to show he wasn’t. He was judged by the police because of past deeds, and I suspect was seen as an easy target and a good way of finalising a case they had very little evidence for.

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  99. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    You need to get yourself informed.

    I am informed. You are not.

    Once a person has been convicted and sentenced, if their criminal activity or even their behaviour whilst incarcerated causes concern, they are assessed by the Psychiatric/Psychological Service in the Department of Corrections. If the behaviour is such that psychopathy is suspected, the offender is tested for, and if relevant diagnosed.

    In other words, you do not know the difference between a mental illness and a personality disorder (which is what psychopathy is).

    I know this from professional experience, however, if you don’t wish to believe me, then the only public way I know of that you can check those details is in the case of Bain – his medical records were made public which showed he was assessed by more than one psychiatrist – including having brain scans etc to assess whether he was a psychopath – and all tests came back negative.

    Brain scans in the 90s to determine pyschopathy? Now I know you are bullshitting.

    Despite his having no psychiatric/mental illness he received weekly visits from the services to assist with PTSD and memory recovery.

    Wow. The issue was whether pyschopathy was a mental illness or a persoanlity disorder and here you are muddying the waters by talking another condition.

    Can I suggest that instead of calling people bullshitters, you actually pull your head in and check your information, because you are wrong – very wrong.

    I called you a bullshitter because I, when composing my original reply, looked at the Mason Clinic website and found they did not treat personality disorders. If you are still confused: Clayton Weatherstone has a personality disorder in that he is an extreme narcissist. No psychiatric intevention is ever mooted for him because he does not have a psychiatric condition.

    You claim to have professional experience in this field. From the calibre of your arguments, I regret to inform you that being a receptionist is considered by most people to be professional experience of a different sort.

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  100. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    We also later have had the use of the word ‘innocent’ in reference to the dead calves, killed for revenge clearly but despatched in a manner common among farmers from what I recall reading.

    He may have killed them in a common matter but he was sloppy in doing so in that some of the calves were still alive when discovered and had to be put down the next day.

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  101. flipper (3,274 comments) says:

    Having been away (on urgent personal business :-) ) most of yesterday I missed this excellent multiple issue thread.

    What amazes me, after reading all of the comments posted, is that one or two folk continue futile attempts to fly their goats.
    Even more amazing is that they think that by using goats their lies and misrepresentations just might fly. But lead balloons will never fly.

    For a year’s end summary, and a peek into the future:
    * Milner – an evil person who may never be released from custody.
    * Meyer – his home detention sentence will be successfully appealed.
    * McDonald – Murder not proven, ergo not guilty.
    * McDonald – Now the victim of media and Crown persecution, as revenge for having been found not guilty of murder. The departmental pShrink reports seem written to prescription.
    * Lundy – Not guilty at retrial; (if one proceeds).
    * Grantham escapes prosecution for attempting to pervert justice (re Lundy)
    * Bain / Binnie 10 , Collins / Fisher/ Heron Zip – eventually (no time scale)

    All that said, I wish Judith, Nostalgia-NZ, Rowan and Peterwn an enjoyable Festive Season, including a really good 2014.

    And Metcalph, if I know you, as I think I might, from far different matters, and dating back many years, I extend every kind wish to you and yours. :-)

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  102. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ metcalph (1,182 comments) says:
    December 21st, 2013 at 8:12 am

    I never meant the brain scans were to determine the psychopathy, but that they were part of the examination given to Bain to assess him for mental illness etc. (the etc covers behavioural conditions as well ) It was an example that you could check –

    Yes, you are right psychopathy is not a ‘mental illness’ however it falls under the same umbrella as the psychiatric/psychological services (psychological being the behavioural part)

    This is a blog – one expects if you are adult enough to read the material here, you are clued up enough to know that – you appear to be deliberately looking for an argument, and need to have the meaning of psychological/psychiatric explained to you in detail – obviously you are being factious because most people know exactly what the two different things are.

    Do you seriously believe that the Department of Corrections would not have the facilities to deal with psychopathy? The Mason Clinic deals with psychopaths in their forensic psychiatry unit (that is their name for the unit, but for your ‘pickiness’ you might like to suggest they rename the unit to keep someone like you happy as ‘psychiatric’ is not the correct word when dealing with psychopathy, as you seem to wish to point out!)

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  103. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    I never said the brain scans were to determine the psychopathy, but that they were part of the examination given to Bain to assess him for mental illness etc. (the etc covers behavioural conditions as well ) It was an example that you could check –

    In other words, you were trying to impress me with irrelevant facts to obscure your original post being wrong and were caught out. I see you haven’t denied being a receptionist.

    Yes, you are right psychopathy is not a ‘mental illness’ however it falls under the same umbrella as the psychiatric/psychological services (psychological being the behavioural part)

    Keep clutching at those straws. The Mason Clinic does not treat personality disorders.

    This is a blog – one expects if you are adult enough to read the material here, you are clued up enough to know that – you appear to be deliberately looking for an argument, and need to have the meaning of psychological/psychiatric explained to you in detail – obviously you are being factious because most people know exactly what the two different things are.

    A fallacious approach to the judgement of the masses.

    Do you seriously believe that the Department of Corrections would not have the facilities to deal with psychopathy?

    They do. It’s called “prison”. They do not have any any effective facilities to medically treat psychopathy because there is no effective treatment for such conditions. That is why the Mason Clinic has better things to do with their time than to look at Helen Milner.

    The Mason Clinic deals with psychopaths in their forensic psychiatry unit (that is there name for the unit, but for your ‘pickiness’ you might like to suggest they rename the unit to keep someone like you happy as ‘psychiatric’ is not the correct word when dealing with psychopathy, as you seem to wish to point out!)

    Unfortunately you are still wrong. That unit deals with intellectually disabled, schizophrenics, manic depressives, acute despressives and anxiety disorders. Aside from the first, the conditions they treat are mental illnesses, not personality disorders.

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  104. Nostalgia-NZ (4,697 comments) says:

    flipper cheers for that. Old Denny is reducing to posting to himself late at night, perhaps a type of personality separation.

    I go with all your observations for the new year and beyond. Add one however, a unprecedented dissection of the prosecution of Pora by the PC. One which might also bring pressure on Grantham because the public mood is uneasy about such things. David Morris may have had more scrutiny at to his progress after the Thomas case if it had been the time of the internet, Grantham will certainly get his share after the Lundy trial. An alert defence may wish to call him as a witness, firstly to lay the injustice and its perpetrator bare and secondly with an eye on a remedy.

    I didn’t follow the Milner trial because it seemed obviously a clear case, but as the story of the ‘investigation’ develops it’s a bloody nightmare. Looks like the initial ‘investigators’ and the initial part of the second crew were pre-programmed in the manner a lot of people are finding disturbing – the investigators looking for evidence of their pre-programmed ‘model’ and ignoring the rest. That is surely what happened with Rewa, despite his being in prison now he was ‘let off’ in order that the travesty covering Pora was more deeply anchored and hidden.

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  105. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Cheers Flipper
    Likewise have a good xmas break and enjoyable 2014 yourself.

    Maybe we could add Judith Collins getting shown up as the vindictive power crazy, unreasonable bitch that she is at the JR.

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  106. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Judith
    The Mason clinic is better suited to dealing with mentally unstable people (like Muggins and Denny dunce) rather than psychopaths like Helen Milner, she is better off in prison like Metcalph suggests, there is absolutely no evidence that she was mentally unstable or didn’t know what she was doing and intend to kill him.

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  107. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    “Meyer – his home detention sentence will be successfully appealed.”

    HOME DETENTION for a corrupt cop?

    That other corrupt cop in Auckland didn’t even get that! He got community service for his offending. The judge said it might be dangerous to send him to prison. 12 months in solitary would be a deterrent for all those other cops contemplating their next corrupt business, yes?

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  108. flipper (3,274 comments) says:

    N- NZ and Rowan……
    Thanks folks.
    I must be slowing down. I missed the Pora case. The PC has done the Crown on two major cases. If the silly CL buggers really think they can get away with a third strike, those that make the decision should be put on trial for wasting public monies.

    Morris ? As culpable as Hutton.

    And then there is Collins. Unspeakably cruel, but bound to be held to account (one hopes) – eventually.

    All bests
    F

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  109. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ Rowan (1,322 comments) says:
    December 21st, 2013 at 10:27 am

    Whilst I agree with you there, because there is no curing psychopathy, the Mason clinic can, in some circumstances, allow the person to be ‘incarcerated’ (detained under legislation) longer than normal. There are one or two poor unfortunates that will never see the light of day that they deal with which are just too dangerous to ever be in the community.

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  110. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    metcalph (1,183 comments) says:
    December 21st, 2013 at 8:46 am

    Bullshit Metcalph. I simply didn’t think I’d have to go into great details on a blog, and apart from that it would be professional inappropriate for me to give precise details.

    The Mason Clinic does deal with psychopaths, and currently is doing so. Who the hell do you think deals with them, if they don’t, given the facility they have?
    Do you think the most dangerous get to wander around the prison system at will?

    Think about it!
    Just because you can’t find it on the internet, does not mean it doesn’t happen. The vast majority, even when diagnosed remain within the mainstream prison facilities but there is at least three that will be with the Mason Clinic who I doubt will ever be released. That is a fact.

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  111. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ metcalph (1,183 comments) says:
    December 21st, 2013 at 8:46 am

    As far as your comment about the ‘receptionist’, I treated it with the attention it deserved, and ignored it. But seeing as you like to ‘DRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGG’ things on, I’ve never been a receptionist in my life, or a ‘typist’, secretary, or even a professional cleaner, prison guard, or any of the other insults you’d like to throw just to attempt to win your argument.

    I was employed by a Government Agency in a senior position for several years that provided me with the knowledge and information that allows me to have more knowledge on this subject that you can gain on an internet search. Thank’s for the attempt of a put-down though!

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  112. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    Whilst I agree with you there, because there is no curing psychopathy, the Mason clinic can, in some circumstances, allow the person to be ‘incarcerated’ (detained under legislation) longer than normal.

    Not for the condition of being a pyschopath, they cannot. Detention as a special patient requires the person to be legally insane which by definition a psychopath or other person with a personality disorder is not. Once again you are bullshitting.

    The Mason Clinic does deal with psychopaths, and currently is doing so. Who the hell do you think deals with them, if they don’t, given the facility they have?

    Again clear signs that you are bullshitting. Pyschopathy is not a mental disease and most psychopaths are not committed or even see the insides of a prison. In the case of a pyschopath who has committed a serious criminal offence, he or she is not mentally ill and no special containment facilities are required for her. A good example of another person with a personality disorder is Clayton Weatherston. He has a narcissist personaility yet is being held entirely within the prison system.

    Just because you can’t find it on the internet, does not mean it doesn’t happen. The vast majority, even when diagnosed remain within the mainstream prison facilities but there is at least three that will be with the Mason Clinic who I doubt will ever be released. That is a fact.

    You are still bullshitting. If they are being held within the mason clinic they have a mental illness, not a personality disorder.

    As far as your comment about the ‘receptionist’, I treated it with the attention it deserved, and ignored it. But seeing as you like to ‘DRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGG’ things on, I’ve never been a receptionist in my life, or a ‘typist’, secretary, or even a professional cleaner, prison guard, or any of the other insults you’d like to throw just to attempt to win your argument.

    Considering your demonstrated record of bullshitting and your difficulty with the truth, I simply cannot believe a word you say.

    I was employed by a Government Agency in a senior position for several years that provided me with the knowledge and information that allows me to have more knowledge on this subject that you can gain on an internet search.

    If so, you must have been fired for gross incompetence. What you say about mental illness and the treatment of pyschopathy is totally at odds with what I know about mental health services in this country. And I like how your claim of “professional” experience in this field – an implication you are either a trained psychologist or medical professional – has somehow transformed itself into a managerial position. You are vague about what you did do. You get simple details wrong. You introduce red herrings. You cannot make coherent and convincing responses to obvious questions and resort to ludicrous appeals to your own authority. I have known and conversed with ex-mental patients who have a stronger grasp on reality then you do. In short: you are a bullshitting fraud.

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  113. flipper (3,274 comments) says:

    Metcalph…

    Unless you are the bull shitter, writing out of the side of your mouth, you are NOT the Metcalph I know and admire.

    Are you sure you are not confused by Lake Alice when it operated as a totally top security institution ? I had occasion to accompany a Minister to Lake Alice once, and later made several other follow-up visits. It was never a nice place and could nit exist today in the form that it did 30 years ago. Lake Alice had its share of sociopaths, but given drug regime only someone like the DG Mental Health would know with some certainty.
    Incidentally…
    The following may help settle the argument:

    Ex Google search…

    Scholarly articles for psychopathy vs sociopathy

    Primary sociopathy (psychopathy) is a type, secondary … – ‎Mealey – Cited by 17

    … personality disorder, psychopathy, and sociopathy: … – ‎Walsh – Cited by 19

    The sociobiology of sociopathy: An integrated … – ‎Mealy – Cited by 648

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  114. muggins (2,903 comments) says:

    Judith a bullshitting fraud?
    Never!

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  115. wikiriwhis business (3,302 comments) says:

    ‘Lake Alice had its share of sociopaths’

    Are you talking head of depts?

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  116. gump (1,231 comments) says:

    @metcalph

    Sorry mate, but you’re wrong about psychopathy not being a psychiatric disorder.

    Personality disorders are mental disorders and they fall entirely within the classification of psychiatric disorders. Which is why they’re diagnosed and managed by psychiatrists.

    I don’t know why you won’t acknowledge this. I guess you need to “win” the argument rather than arrive at the truth.

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  117. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ metcalph (1,184 comments) says:
    December 21st, 2013 at 1:08 pm

    They cannot detain anyone simply by diagnosis – but they can detain them due to their behaviour – that is, the safety of the community and themselves should they be released. But then I never said they could hold them because they were psychopaths, that was your bullshitting interpretation.

    You are correct, the vast majority of psychopaths do not get caught and go to prison – but then I wasn’t talking about those in the community – I was specifically referring to those that are in custody and of whom demonstrate behaviour whilst in custody that means they cannot remain within mainstream – at no stage did I say ALL psychopaths are with psyche services. Again you are putting your own spin on what I’ve said – please read back and quote where I said ALL.

    I have not called Psychopathy a mental illness at any stage, again, that is your interpretation of what I have said. The fact is, the DOC does not have a separate facility to deal with people who are diagnosed as psychopathic, so they are dealt with and incorporated into existing services.

    I have NEVER claimed to be a medical professional or indeed in a managerial position – please stop putting your own spin on what I’ve said – which was a senior position… I am not going to tell you what that position was, except to say that it involved working with a number of serious violent offenders on a regular basis, and having a great deal to do with the services available to them.

    Whether you believe me or not is totally immaterial to me – all you have done is deliberately put your own spin on what I have said, and then called me a liar for it. You say you have experience with the mental health services – however, I wonder if any of that was in the forensic part of the services – if it was, you’d know I am telling the truth.

    Whilst doing that, you have failed to offer any sort of alternative – suggesting that there are no psychopaths in prison, and if there are, they are left to their own devices no matter how severe their behaviour – you couldn’t be more wrong. A psychopath in crisis mode can be a huge disruption in a prison facility – try applying a little commonsense.

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  118. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    I sleep easier in my bed at night knowing that folk such as Judith are out there defusing the evil intentions of the criminal fraternity before their actions impinge on my serenity!!! :) :)

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  119. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ Rowan (1,322 comments) says:
    December 21st, 2013 at 10:27 am

    It is Helen Milner’s prolonged history which according to her mother started very young, which leads one to think she has more serious problems that just murdering her husband. Family reports that she was always self-centered and appears to have little or no conscience. She is/was clever enough to manipulate people and seemed to have very few of the normal social ‘decency’ things that keep others from committing crimes e.g. quite happy to frame her own son – I am pretty sure she will be referred to psyche services, if she hasn’t been already. Of course unless the report is ordered by the Judge, any diagnosis or treatment comes under medical privilege and cannot be made public without her permission.

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  120. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    @ Johnboy (12,165 comments) says:
    December 21st, 2013 at 3:53 pm

    Don’t do it anymore Johnboy – I prefer to make students and the ol’ boys lives misery instead.

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  121. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Are you a teacher then Judith?

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  122. MH (558 comments) says:

    If you 2 can’t make up your minds,we’ve no choice,we’ll have to let her go-maybe the real Masons will take her in.

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  123. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Judith’s not answering. I think she is a teacher.

    Hope she is not one of those dreadful ones that try to reclaim the prisoner folk.

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  124. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Were you an alumni Nosti? :)

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  125. muggins (2,903 comments) says:

    Johnboy,
    Just in case you havn’t worked it out by now there is more than one Judith.

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  126. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    Sorry mate, but you’re wrong about psychopathy not being a psychiatric disorder.

    I never said that. What I did say was that it was not a mental illness.

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  127. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Judith of the many coloured coat is it muggins? :)

    http://www.behindthename.com/name/judith/comments

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  128. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    They cannot detain anyone simply by diagnosis – but they can detain them due to their behaviour – that is, the safety of the community and themselves should they be released. But then I never said they could hold them because they were psychopaths, that was your bullshitting interpretation.

    More of your confused bullshit. The Mason Clinic is primarily about treating the mentally ill. It is not and never has been about treating the behaviour of psychopaths nor does it have the ability to detain criminal psychopaths over and beyond their sentence if they pose a danger to the community. That power is only reserved for special patients, the mentally ill and not the personality disordered.

    You are correct, the vast majority of psychopaths do not get caught and go to prison – but then I wasn’t talking about those in the community – I was specifically referring to those that are in custody and of whom demonstrate behaviour whilst in custody that means they cannot remain within mainstream

    Another reference to “behaviour”, the new bullshit spin from Judith. To be sent to the Mason Clinic requires signs of mental illness, not personality disorders. If a incarcerated psychopath is behaving badly then the approrpiate course of action is further trial and punishement and/or relocation to a maximum security prison.

    I have not called Psychopathy a mental illness at any stage, again, that is your interpretation of what I have said.

    In implying that the Mason Clinic treats psychopaths, you imply it is a mental illness.

    The fact is, the DOC does not have a separate facility to deal with people who are diagnosed as psychopathic, so they are dealt with and incorporated into existing services.

    In other words, they are, as I have repeatedly said, sent to prison.

    I have NEVER claimed to be a medical professional

    You have claimed professional experience in a comment at 7:54pm on December 21.

    I know this from professional experience, however, if you don’t wish to believe me, then the only public way I know of that you can check those details is in the case of Bain

    In the context of mental health treatment, that really only has one interpretation: that of being a medical professional. I called you out on the claim and you refused to clarify. That you are now backpedalling from your original claim indicates the it was bullshit in the first place and that you are dishonest.

    or indeed in a managerial position – please stop putting your own spin on what I’ve said – which was a senior position

    Again seniority only has one interpretation. If you don’t like what people are concluding about you on the basis of what you say then the onus is on you to clearly describe what you did or to quit using it as an appeal to authority. Vague insinuations about how you had a senior position in a professional capacity to buttress your confused statements about the treatment of psychopaths aren’t doing your credibility any good.

    Whether you believe me or not is totally immaterial to me – all you have done is deliberately put your own spin on what I have said, and then called me a liar for it. You say you have experience with the mental health services – however, I wonder if any of that was in the forensic part of the services – if it was, you’d know I am telling the truth.

    Wow. You accuse me of putting your own spin and in the very next statement make up a statement that I have never said.

    Whilst doing that, you have failed to offer any sort of alternative – suggesting that there are no psychopaths in prison,

    Now you are obviously lying. What I said was that the Mason Clinic does not treat psychopaths and that most psychopaths are not in prison.

    and if there are, they are left to their own devices no matter how severe their behaviour – you couldn’t be more wrong. A psychopath in crisis mode can be a huge disruption in a prison facility – try applying a little commonsense.

    I do. I also know that the Prison Service is well equipped to control violent offenders that will lash out for any reason whatsoever. Being a psychopath makes little difference to the issue of handling a problem inmate.

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  129. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    Flipper

    Unless you are the bull shitter, writing out of the side of your mouth, you are NOT the Metcalph I know and admire.

    I’m sorry but because of your pseudonym, I do not know who the fuck you are and do not care.

    Are you sure you are not confused by Lake Alice when it operated as a totally top security institution ? I had occasion to accompany a Minister to Lake Alice once, and later made several other follow-up visits. It was never a nice place and could nit exist today in the form that it did 30 years ago. Lake Alice had its share of sociopaths, but given drug regime only someone like the DG Mental Health would know with some certainty.

    I’m not confused about Lake Alice. I know that Barry Ryder was released from Lake Alice on the grounds that he was personality disordered and not mentally ill (based on a 1992 law change) Thus he couldn’t be detained as a special patient and had to be released because his sentence was up. All this was despite his still being an active threat to children.

    The 1992 act defines mental disorder as:

    an abnormal state of mind (whether of a continuous or an intermittent nature), characterised by delusions, or by disorders of mood or perception or volition or cognition, of such a degree that it—
    (a)poses a serious danger to the health or safety of that person or of others; or
    (b)seriously diminishes the capacity of that person to take care of himself or herself;—

    This definition rules out psychopathy and many other personality disorders as conditions within the terms of the act.

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  130. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Come in Judith. We really do luv you! :)

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  131. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    We’d love to hear of your teaching career! :)

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  132. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Gone quiet have you Judith?

    That’s unusual! :)

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  133. goldnkiwi (649 comments) says:

    I was wondering what book Helen Milner was reading during her contemplative stage.

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  134. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    I think there is an argument that people like Helen Milner are born evil rather than developing it, all the signs are there long before the killing of her husband, stealing from her mother and aunt, hated to the point she was cut out of her mothers will. This all seems to go beyond rational explaining and maybe she just is inherently evil alongside the likes of Clayton Weatherston. A Nigel Latta ‘Beyond the Darklands’ episode on these two characters would be interesting.

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  135. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Has the ol’boy been grinding up Phenergan?

    Hard to blame him if he has? :)

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  136. goldnkiwi (649 comments) says:

    Johnboy (12,187 comments) says:

    December 21st, 2013 at 5:37 pm

    Judith of the many coloured coat is it muggins? :)

    http://www.behindthename.com/name/judith/comments

    Interesting the one of Judeth, took me to Judas

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  137. gump (1,231 comments) says:

    @metcalph

    “The 1992 act defines mental disorder as:

    This definition rules out psychopathy and many other personality disorders as conditions within the terms of the act.”

    —————————–

    Sorry, you’re wrong again. I have done some work with the Forensic Court Liaison Service, and have some familiarity with the legislation you’re citing.

    The definition of a mental disorder Mental Health Act doesn’t rule out psychopathy as a mental disorder. What you seem unable to grasp is that the definition used in the Act is a legal definition, not a medical definition.

    More specifically – the definition in the Act looks only at the symptoms of the disorder, not the formal diagnosis. This means that a patient can be adjudged to have a mental disorder without a diagnosed mental illness, or be diagnosed with a mental illness but adjudged to have no mental disorder.

    This is the basis on which compulsory treatment orders are issued – and MHA section 55 restrictions are issued – to patients whose psychopathy presents a risk to others.

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  138. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    Sorry, you’re wrong again.

    Again? The first time you said I was wrong, it was a statement that I never made.

    The definition of a mental disorder Mental Health Act doesn’t rule out psychopathy as a mental disorder.

    Look at the definition again. Pyschopathy is not a delusional disease nor is it a disorder of “mood or perception or volition or cognition”.

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  139. gump (1,231 comments) says:

    @metcalph

    “Look at the definition again. Pyschopathy is not a delusional disease nor is it a disorder of “mood or perception or volition or cognition”.”

    —————————-

    I am very familiar with the legal definition.

    Psychopathy is legally regarded as an abnormal state of mind (which is why it is classified as a psychiatric disorder in the DSM and ICD) and provided that the patient meets the legal test of “poses a serious danger to the health or safety of that person or of others” then they can be detained with a compulsory treatment order, or subjected to a section 55 restriction.

    It’s entirely true that psychopathy isn’t a reason – in and of itself – to detain a patient. But that is true for any mental disorder. The key to understanding the legal definition in the MHA is that it evaluates the severity of the disorder in terms of risk. Psychopathy is legally regarded as a mental disorder under the MHA when it can be demonstrated that the patient poses a threat to the safety of others.

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  140. flipper (3,274 comments) says:

    Geeezzzz….

    There are some personality disorders evident here (not the least is the goat herder, Muggins)….and the passion exhibited by you, Metcalph, is disturbing. You need to seek help.

    As for Ryder, if you are referring to the baby fucker, are you not confusing Lake Alice with Wanganui Prison (Kaitoke)?
    You might also check on Ryder’s sentence. (I have lost track of his whereabouts, but I last heard of him in Rolleston prison)

    If he is anything other than a classic sociopath, he was, when I had reason to have contact with him, he was a liar, a manipulator, and evil, but honest to the extent that he conceded that he would re-offend when released.

    Mirams knew what he was about when Lake Alice was under his control. But excesses by some staff, and an over-the-top drug regime made it inevitable that the ;lake would change – forever.

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  141. flipper (3,274 comments) says:

    RETRACTI0N….

    I CONFUSED MYSELF BETWEEN ONE Lloyd MACiNTOSH AND RYDER.
    I WITHDRAW MY COMMENTS IN RESPECT OF RYDER.
    I NEVER HAD REASON TO DEAL WITH HIM, AND MY COMMENTS DO NOT, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, APPLY TO HIM.
    MY COMMENTS APPLY TO MACINTOSH

    In other respects, I stand by what I said.
    F

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  142. Rowan (1,729 comments) says:

    Hopefully Helen will get the help she needs in prison as it appears she has no conscience and is quite happy to do things outside the norm, she should have a decent chance to do this.

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  143. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    “Hopefully Helen will get the help she needs in prison”

    She’s beyond redemption and it would be a waste of time and money trying to alter that fact. Her wiring is all fucked-up. A bullet between the eyes and down the offal pit.

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