Minto on Mandela

December 9th, 2013 at 4:03 pm by David Farrar

I blogged this quote from the Poneke blog in 2008. It is worth repeating.

was one of the heroes of my formative years. 

At the time, I thought Minto was driven by the same kind of repugnance of the racist apartheid system that motivated the opposition of many other New Zealanders. Apartheid was a stain on humanity.

In 1995, Mandela visited New Zealand for the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting being held in Auckland. He was mobbed in the streets everywhere he went. He was a hero of almost everyone of my generation and of almost everyone who had marched against the Springboks 14 years before. The one anti-tour protester to whom he was not a hero was a profound surprise. I went to a meeting Mandela attended at the St Matthews in the City church in Auckland. To my astonishment, and dismay, John Minto, who was there, hectored the great man for not kicking private enterprise and transnational companies out of South Africa after apartheid ended. A bewildered Mandela asked Minto how he expected people to find work if their employers were banished. It was at that moment I realised Minto was not driven by opposition to racism but by opposition to the entire capitalist system.

Minto still expresses disappointment that the South African Government hasn’t implemented communism. Mandela eventually outgrew his communist upbringing, unlike some others.

Tags: ,

190 Responses to “Minto on Mandela”

  1. ross69 (3,637 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

    Unpopular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 64 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. Manolo (12,621 comments) says:

    Who cares about the imbecile Minto, a communist to boot? He ought to be ignored.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 52 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. ross69 (3,637 comments) says:

    BTW, the protests against that tour gave Mandela much satisfaction.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11169041

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 18 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. odysseus (22 comments) says:

    Ross69 – he doesn’t want to answer that question as it might lead to other questions. Apparently. If that makes sense to anyone.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 19 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. ross69 (3,637 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

    Unpopular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 54 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. alex Masterley (1,438 comments) says:

    I was for the tour.

    So what.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 55 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. stephen2d (45 comments) says:

    Ross and Odysseus: Key is from a different generation. Like he said he was 19 at the time, with difficult upbringing, surely he had other things to worry about. Is that a crime? Is he against any form of racism? Yes. Is he culpable of “supporting appartheid because he wasn’t socially conscious at that time”? No. Would he be guilty if that was still the case? Yes.

    The subject here is Minto and all your skillful deflecting won’t help. ;)

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 52 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. Yoza (1,348 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

    Unpopular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 61 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    Key is reported as saying he was strongly against apartheid and mildly pro-tour but was more interested in other things in 1981.

    Similar for me. My first child was born at that time and that took most of my attention. I didn’t protest nor did I attend any games (I was living in Central Otago then, far from any of either).

    I strongly opposed apartheid.
    I supported the right of a sporting tour to proceed.
    I supported the right to protest and supported some of the protest.
    I opposed some of the more extreme aspects of the protest.

    The fact is that strong support and strong opposition made for the most effective anti-apartheid message. If the tour had simply been quietly dropped or of it proceeded with minor protest only it wouldn’t have been significant.

    That South Africa rugby supporters saw the degree of protest and division here made far more difference than a non-event would have.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 25 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. Longknives (4,041 comments) says:

    I would have loved to have seen those games- A powerful All Black team up against a mighty Bok outfit with legends like Nasty Botha and Danie Gerber…

    Fuck the smelly, ‘rent a mob’ protesters…

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 24 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. rouppe (852 comments) says:

    I was a student in Hamilton in 1981. It was my first year at the Halls of Residence on campus. At that time I didn’t really care about politics, nor about rugby. I sat in the common room to watch the game, partly because it was an excuse to have a few beers and partly out of curiosity. When the pitch was invaded and the game called off, I shrugged my shoulders and went off to do something else.

    I was astonished when later in the evening several hundred very drunk and very angry pro-tour people descended on the campus and proceeded to attack anyone they could find, which unfortunately included me. The reason? The anti-tour movement had caught the imagination of left-wing students of the time, they became the face of the protest movement and therefore every student was fair game. I was a student, I was there so I got a going over. In the end a line of riot police had to inject themselves between the residence and the angry mob. It took some doing, as the Police also considered students to be the cause of the problem.

    Some weeks afterwards, I realised that the real blame for that beating lay at the feet of those like John Minto. He had stirred the country up, he had whipped the lefty student faculty into a frenzy, he had orchestrated the pitch invasion, and then melted away into the night, leaving everyone else to deal with the fallout. He didn’t care about that. For someone who professed to care about the people of South Africa, he cared not one jot about the people of New Zealand.

    Innocent people were badly hurt that day. Unfortunately John Minto was not one of them. I will never consider him worthy of any accolade or respect.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 66 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. Jack5 (4,216 comments) says:

    Hooton was on Radio NZ’s Labour Radio today pontificating on why Key should be taking anti-tour protesters to the Mandela funeral?

    And this guy wants to head ACT?

    There was a joke by the panel (Hooton, Williams with Ryan as compere) that the RNZAF VIP plane could drop bags of flour (as in anti-tour protests).

    They weren’t game to suggest the NZ delegation could threaten to fly it into the ceremony, which I think stopped the Springbok match at Hamilton.

    Vote: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. odysseus (22 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

    Unpopular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 34 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. rouppe (852 comments) says:

    Jack.

    No, the game in Hamilton was stopped because the protesters managed to invade the pitch, and they then dropped nails and tacks onto the pitch, making it unsafe.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 27 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. srylands (301 comments) says:

    “The far right rushing to shed crocodile tears at Mandela’s grave side is really creepy.”

    I didn’t notice the National Front shedding tears. It is the only far right group in NZ I have come across. Can you provide a reference? Their web page says nothing.

    Is there another far right grouping in NZ you are aware of?

    Anyway John Minto wins the creepy stakes. There is no way he would be included by the Government in an official delegation to anything. I have noticed Silent T is not standing up for JM.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 40 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. Manolo (12,621 comments) says:

    Can we expect Smile-and-wave to cave in to Minto’s pathetic request for a freebie? I don’t think so.

    Vote: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. nickb (3,629 comments) says:

    The far left dancing on Margaret Thatcher’s grave was really creepy too Yoza. Didn’t see you speaking out then.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 48 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. srylands (301 comments) says:

    “nd he now would like us to believe that he cannot remember his position on such a cataclysmic event.”

    I am the same age as JK. And my memory of 19 is pretty hazy. But what I do remember is that I was pretty stupid. I thought socialism was good for a start. By 25 I had changed my mind. So honestly what JK thought about anything at 19 is irrelevant.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 29 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. nickb (3,629 comments) says:

    I strongly opposed apartheid.
    I supported the right of a sporting tour to proceed.
    I supported the right to protest and supported some of the protest.
    I opposed some of the more extreme aspects of the protest.

    In other words, you drove a fair, reasonable and sensiblecentrist path down the middle of the road?

    Vote: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    Cunliffe is reported as saying he thinks Key should have included Minto in the delegation but he is choosing to go in the delegation himself so mustn’t feel very strongly about it. Another bob each way from Cunliffe, winning a trip but wanting to place himself in the good books of the leftie activists.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 31 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. burt (7,085 comments) says:

    A bewildered Mandela asked Minto how he expected people to find work if their employers were banished.

    Mandela clearly missed the memo that working is what other people do to support the self elected lefty elite ….

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 23 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. rouppe (852 comments) says:

    Yes Pete, apparently the advice he took on whether to give his place to Minto is all good, but the advice Key took about not taking him at all isn’t as compelling

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. burt (7,085 comments) says:

    So have I got this right – Minto is so thick he not only thinks socialism works but also thinks communism works ?

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 26 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. OneTrack (1,958 comments) says:

    stephend – ” Is that a crime?”

    In ross69′s world it is a thought crime – in 1981, you had to be protesting on the streets, sticking it to the man (ie the policemen trying to keep order) or otherwise you are an enemy of the people and need to be sent for re-education. No other option is possible.

    Wot a joke. Time to grow up boys.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. OneTrack (1,958 comments) says:

    burt – “So have I got this right – Minto is so thick he not only thinks socialism works but also thinks communism works ?”

    All those other times communism has been tried, they just didn’t do it right. But with Minto in charge (the guys in favour of communism always think they should/would be charge) everything will go just as Karl planned into a brave new world of nirvana.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 25 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    “Innocent people were badly hurt that day. Unfortunately John Minto was not one of them.”

    Dont worry. My brother was in the red squad 1981 . Outside Lancaster Park on Wilsons rd one Saturday afternoon he came up against John Minto wearing a full face helmet , yelling , screaming and verbally abusing the Police. It was at that point my brother smashed Minto full on in the face ( between the gap in the helmet holding his baton horizontally ) several times. Minto went down like a sack of spuds. He was dealt to and then dragged off to the paddy wagon. I remember my brother telling me how Minto blubbered like a baby all the way back to Chc central.

    My brother is now retired from the NZ Police but he still has that wonderful baton hanging on the wall in his home.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 30 Thumb down 10 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. David Garrett (5,120 comments) says:

    One track: Well said..In 1981 I was 24, and didnt really care either way about the tour..but that was probably due more to my complete lack of interest in rugby than anything political..

    Someone above referred to Minto “fading away into the night” when the shit hit the fan…I was active in the anti-nuclear protests of the 80′s and during those activities, I met many Mintos…they always seemed to show up when there were TV cameras around, but funnily enough were never part of things like 24 hour vigils in the middle of winter…we used to get c…ts like him coming around – when it had stopped raining – trying to sign us up for “the wider protest movement”…the man is a first class arsehole…

    Mandela? A remarkable man however you define it…

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 37 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. ross69 (3,637 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

    Unpopular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 34 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. greenjacket (346 comments) says:

    I am on the centre-right politically. I also marched against the ’81 tour.
    But it was more than 30 years ago – Ross69 and others really need to let go of the past.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 26 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    nick – I take it you have no appreciation of the complexities of the issue, unless you’re being a diss dick just because that’s how you are.

    There were many conflicting views, personal, family, workplace, social. Quite a few people had strong feelings one way or another, including thugs on both sides plus people who were opportunist thugs.

    And many people had very mixed feelings. That has nothing to do with middle of the road.

    Vote: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. Jack5 (4,216 comments) says:

    Re Yoza at 4.19.

    The pseudonym “Yoza” – a bit creepily like the name of the Stalinist butcher Yezhov. Every bit as nasty as the worst of far right extremists, and of the worst of Hitler’s socialists (yes, they were National Socialists and favoured State control and power).

    Vote: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. OneTrack (1,958 comments) says:

    odysseus – ” he cannot remember his position on such a cataclysmic event”

    For YOU it might have been a cataclysmic event. For others, maybe not so much.

    Vote: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Dont worry. My brother was in the red squad 1981 . Outside Lancaster Park on Wilsons rd one Saturday afternoon he came up against John Minto wearing a full face helmet , yelling , screaming and verbally abusing the Police. It was at that point my brother smashed Minto full on in the face ( between the gap in the helmet holding his baton horizontally ) several times. Minto went down like a sack of spuds. He was dealt to and then dragged off to the paddy wagon. I remember my brother telling me how Minto blubbered like a baby all the way back to Chc central.

    My brother is now retired from the NZ Police but he still has that wonderful baton hanging on the wall in his home.

    Tell that one again, liarbors. Do it real slow, then a little faster.

    Vote: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. thor42 (770 comments) says:

    “Minto still expresses disappointment that the South African Government hasn’t implemented communism”
    That shows what a complete and utter F**KWIT he is.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 21 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. burt (7,085 comments) says:

    greenjacket

    ross69 use to talk about the manufacturing crisis …. He use to talk about the unemployment level…. He use to talk about high profits from electricity generation ….

    He’s made a complete fool of himself following the talking points – Attacking John Key is all he has left … leave him be – he thinks socialism works so clearly he is incapable of learning from experience.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. BeaB (1,946 comments) says:

    Just as Mandela has become a saint, so the anti-tour people have inflated the whole thing into a holy crusade that was akin to a civil war. Baloney. Like many others, we had a few family arguments but no real acrimony though we held varying positions.

    Many of us had a bob each way. I admired the courage of the group standing on the rugby field in Hamilton – brave if a bit mad. I hated the conflict between the police and the protestors and thought the police were in an impossible position. I couldn’t give a toss about rugby then or now. I didn’t like apartheid (I am not sure who did except the Boers many of whom live in NZ now the blacks are in charge) and nobly didn’t buy tinned guavas.

    But, like many others, I was busy with my own life and didn’t much care for the self-importance of know-alls like Minto who have that obnoxious drive to make us all behave the way they want us to. Obviously Minto thought Mandela also should do as he said.

    And I had to laugh at Cunliffe grandstanding but not giving up his own seat to Minto. What plonkers they both are!

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 22 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    ross69 – bullshit, Key has said he strongly opposed apartheid. as most people did. Many of those people also objected to being dictated to by people with an agenda that was more than just opposing a sports tour or opposing apartheid. Minto and others wanted it to be South Africa’s and New Zealand’s communist revolution.

    What was your view on it in 1981?

    Vote: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. RRM (8,988 comments) says:

    A true anti-apartheid hero.

    “I should be invited to go to Nelson Mandela’s funeral with the PM’s group.

    I’m not going to let John Key off the hook by paying my own way there.”

    The deluded sense of self-importance is matched only by P. Ure’s embarrassing meltdown, when he wasn’t invited by DPF and Slater to go on their 2008 election campervan trip :-)

    Vote: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. Jack5 (4,216 comments) says:

    Ross69: where do you stand on the drift towards apartheid-style separation of society in NZ?

    Race-based property laws, race-based health systems, race-based education, and race-based sports (national ethnic teams)?

    Vote: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. burt (7,085 comments) says:

    Jack5

    It’s different when Labour do it !

    Vote: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. David Garrett (5,120 comments) says:

    Onetrack: Well put…For me it certainly wasn’t “a cataclysmic event” …From memory the first game of the tour was in New Plymouth, where I was living at the time, and I recall going down town to see if there were any protestors outside the old Criterion hotel where they were staying…I dont remember there being more than a handful, but then Taranaki and rugby have always gone together like wine and cheese…I remember being a bit concerned about the violence at other venues, but really I was more interested in shagging the woman who became my first wife…

    Vote: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. srylands (301 comments) says:

    “He was going to university and he was 20. He says he would’ve gone to the matches. That’s fine, he clearly doesn’t think apartheid is a big deal…why not come out and say that? He’s gutless.”

    Bloody hell – to repeat Ross – what John Key thought about anything at 20/19 is irrelevant to life in New Zealand today.

    While there are some exceptions, most young people don’t know anything. They don’t even know they are young.

    If most of your views on important issues today are the same as those you held at 19, that is a very bad sign of your cognitive development since.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 21 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. dime (8,751 comments) says:

    Dime was against apartheid. Dime isn’t a fan of racism. How one man can look at another and dislike him based on the colour of his skin is beyond me.

    However, I would have gone to those games. Fuck, I probably would have gone to all 3.

    Given the chance I would have happily bashed a dirty smelly hippy or two as well.

    What else can we discuss from 30 plus years ago.. Oh I know, prince or Michael Jackson?

    If I never hear about the lefts claim to fame springbok protests again it will be too soon.

    Vote: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  44. Jack5 (4,216 comments) says:

    Re Liarbore’s a Joke at 4.56.

    I think you’re brother’s pulling your leg. Either that or he was an old desk cop and a notable weakling.

    Smashing someone in the head full strength with a baton (even through a helmet and mouthguard gap) several times would likely kill them, and would certainly leave them unconscious and in need of surgery. They wouldn’t be in any state to “blubber”. Gurgle, perhaps, or death rattle more likely.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  45. davidp (3,319 comments) says:

    I’ve never protested about any sporting team in NZ, regardless of what country they represented. Some of them have come from quite reprehensive countries. Does that mean that Lefties are going to hold me responsible for the policies of all of these foreign governments?

    The Zimbabwe cricket team toured NZ last year. I don’t recall anyone protesting. Minto? Ross69? Yoza? Maybe you can explain why you all apparently support Mugabe and hate the people of Zimbabwe via your inaction.

    Vote: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  46. MT_Tinman (2,790 comments) says:

    Why Minto? Why not Richards or any one of the very many Black Power thugs who led the “anti-racism” protest vandalism in 1981?

    Vote: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  47. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    “Tell that one again, liarbors. Do it real slow, then a little faster.”

    Lol…that story always comes up at family BBQ’s etc..they were nasty days in 1981..the Riot Squads were shipped around the country in air force c-130 hercs to where ever the next rugby game was held..the Mintos of the day were ruthlessly dealt to by the boys in blue. But they never seemed to learn.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  48. southtop (257 comments) says:

    i managed to play in a curtain raiser and go to a couple of games. proudly wore a shirt with F.A.R.T. For All Rugby Tours.
    I’d be interested in Minto being true to anti-apartheid by starting H.A.R.E. Halt All Racial Electorates ……insert Tui ad

    Vote: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  49. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    the Mintos of the day were ruthlessly dealt to by the boys in blue. But they never seemed to learn.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  50. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    Dont be silly Jack5.

    Have a good look at Minto’s nose next time you see him on tv.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  51. Jack5 (4,216 comments) says:

    Re liarbors a joke at 5.23:

    Liarbors – I’ve just studied Minto’s nose in several pics.

    It’s a big honker, and it’s never been flattened by a baton.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 7 You need to be logged in to vote
  52. Akaroa (487 comments) says:

    Anti-Apartheid?. Anti-Springbok Tour of NZ?

    Come on all you delvers into these hoary old issues. What is it about you?

    Some form of twisted yearning for old battles?

    (Ah, you should have seen us challenging Red Squad!)

    And, yes, before you ask. My children and I saw the Boks at Athletic Park.

    That was yesterday – This is today!! Wake up and smell the 21st Century.!

    Vote: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  53. burt (7,085 comments) says:

    liarbors a joke

    I though Minto had a bent nose from Communist training camp where he had to fight 3,000 other trainee communists to get to the start of the glorious toilet paper queue every morning.

    Vote: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  54. David Garrett (5,120 comments) says:

    Dime: You must remember a basic tenet of left wing politics: What you did 30 years ago – if reprehensible – is OK now because it shows you have a broad life experience…If what you did 30 years ago was great, then you are and always were a shining example to Labour Youth…

    It’s a different story if you did something reprehensible 30 years ago and you are at the right end of the political spectrum..Then it shows you always were an arsehole, and you still are one…

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 25 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  55. burt (7,085 comments) says:

    Akaroa

    Some form of twisted yearning for old battles?

    The foundation of the union movement – the glory days of fighting the man. Socialists/Communists are always looking back at the glory days – those few days the very first time their ideology was tried before it had a chance to fail.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  56. big bruv (12,328 comments) says:

    Yoza

    What is scarier is scum like you trying once again to rewrite history by claiming that the Springbok tour was a left v right battle.

    You (and the rest of your low life brethren like Bradbury) are well aware that many from the right marched against that tour, however you never let the truth get in the way of your bullshit.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 22 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  57. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    The far right rushing to shed crocodile tears at Mandela’s grave

    Yoza

    Manolo’s not going as far as I know and he sure as shit won’t have shed a tear – Whats fucking me off is the lefties re-living their ” protest movement days” wankers.

    Most of those blabbering on socail media did fuck all. All the violence was done by those paid to commit violence and shit heads who would normally have been committing burglaries. Look at the Eden Park photo’s.

    For many of the ‘protesters, 81 was their glory days, the only time in their lives they have ever said “bum for an apple”.

    All the focus is on Minto, Minto did bugger all, the real organisers were the committed marxists like Jane Kelsey.

    Mintos a drone, still chanting the same juvenile shit he’s been doing for thirty years. He’s a no talent shit stirrer and a fucking school teacher to boot

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 23 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  58. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    I was only 11 at the time of the tour, and largely because I was raised in a moderately conservative household I supported the tour at the time because I naively believed that sport was somehow above politics, even social issues (even though the West boycotted the Moscow Olympics because of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, which in hindsight was a curious double standard).

    However, I have no time at all for Skeletor. He does not have the interests of either New Zealanders or the poor at heart. He is a manipulator, and a zealot – plain and simple.

    Vote: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  59. adamsmith1922 (879 comments) says:

    Frankly, I don’t give a damn about Minto, the tour or what anyone thought in 1981. It is 2013, nearly 2014 and John Key as Prime Minister is going as representative of NZ, not as a callow 20 year old youth

    It is the left who are politicizing this issue, not Key. Bob each way Cunliffe is amongst those playing politics, not Key. No doubt Wussel was against the tour, from his nappy.

    Minto in the scheme of things is an irrelevance, he had his 15 minutes in 1981, but has not recognized that fact and dwells in the past, where he should be left.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 24 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  60. rightoverlabour (61 comments) says:

    Most South Africans were unaware of the tour and its protests. Lady Diana was getting married around the same time. Did the NZ protests help end Apartheid? I doubt it. There was a referendum open only to whites who overwhelmingly urged the government of the time to reform. That was the beginning of end of Apartheid. The Cold War was ending, keeping a pro USA government in Pretoria was no longer a CIA priority (SA had NATO bunkers in Walvis Bay and Pretoria), probably the biggest issue was the nuclear arsenal hidden in the coal mines around Witbank. Everyone besides hardened Right Wing fanatics realised that Apartheid had to end. As for Commie Minto, never heard of the prick until I arrived here 17 years ago. His contribution to ending Apartheid. Probably FA. And that’s being generous.

    Vote: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  61. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    “….the Mintos of the day were ruthlessly dealt to by the boys in blue….”

    Yep….just prior to the tour, I went through a ‘government training facility’ one Sunday morning as a young teenager, visiting with one of the ‘big bosses’, as we walked through the gym there were batons lined up against the wall – probably about 30 of them. Three large punching bags were hanging from the ceiling in the middle of the gym, on the front of the red punching bag, and at head level, was written in black marker pen a ’5 lettered word’ starting with M.

    When I said “hey look that says M****” the ‘well over 6ft big boss laughed and said “You didn’t see that!” :cool:

    I’ll never forget that day out. It’s a true story. I’m not saying who the boss was either.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  62. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    It is a disgrace that NZ is spending money to attend the funeral of a convicted terrorist who attempted to enslave a nation under a communist dictatorship and stood in opposition to Western democracy.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 10 You need to be logged in to vote
  63. kiwi in america (2,335 comments) says:

    Minto’s vein of questioning of Mandela is highly revealing – both of Mandela’s pragmatism and of Minto’s deeply rooted Marxist views. His support for HART and all that protesting was not for the ending of apartheid but more the rise of a socialist revolutionary government on the backs of anti racist sentiment and external sanctions. Mandela had his flaws but even he realized that destroying capitalism in South Africa was counter productive.

    Vote: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  64. kowtow (6,690 comments) says:

    I have no doubt that around the world practically every country has it’s very own Minto ,who in their own little mind and the pathetic little world of their own media, single handedly ended the former SA regime.

    For example here’s Ireland’s contribution.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/former-dunnes-stores-strikers-begin-emotional-journey-back-to-south-africa-1.1621436

    As already pointed out above ,it was the collapse of the Soviets and the whites of SA who ended the regime.They could have dragged the country into a prolonged civil war but unselflessly didn’t.

    Instead the so called democratic ,egalitarian govt has brought a crime wave of unprecedented proportions upon it’s own citizens.

    Vote: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  65. wreck1080 (3,522 comments) says:

    why does anyone listen to minto?

    I could go out and rave like this lunatic and i doubt anyone would listen.

    So, how does minto get so many ears?

    Vote: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  66. itstricky (1,139 comments) says:

    Yes how does he get so many ears? DPF mentions him that’s how. I mean I don’t get the point of this post? Has he recent noteworthy form or does DPF bring him up 15 years later for some point scoring based on the death of a public figure? Scuse my ignorance what am I missing?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 7 You need to be logged in to vote
  67. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    longknives….the rugby was glorious. The AB forward pack was outstanding in the first and third tests but we lacked a real 1st five & centre pairing. Pokere was classy but new at 2nd five. The second test, which I went to, the AB’s were flat & had Knight (who was playing the best footie of his career up to that point & scored several tries in the preceding provincial games) out, Higginson out & a virtually semi-retired Oliver & Ken Stewart (who hadn’t played much recent top footie) in.

    The bok backline had a bit more quality in midfield, especially as both Osborne & Robertson sat it out really highlighted the AB weakness there….though Cameron was a rock on defense throughout. AB’s probably deserved the series win as they had the better of both the third & first tests through a demonstrably superior forward pack.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  68. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Minto was [is] part of a criminal gang that attacked and destroyed private and public property. They also attacked police attempting to protect people and property. They often attacked police for no other reason than the fact they were there.

    Given the levels of extreme violence and the numbers, I believe the police should have opened fire on them with machine guns.

    Vote: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 12 You need to be logged in to vote
  69. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    FFS Kea tone it down a notch!

    Vote: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  70. alwyn (359 comments) says:

    There seem to be a very large number of people, mostly on the left, who can’t seem to get over the 1981 tour. I suspect that for a lot of them it really was the highlight of their lives. The probably had such great dreams of how they were going to be successful in their lives and now have to face up to the fact that haven’t really been successful at anything.
    They are probably best equated with the singer Mary Hopkin, the one hit wonder of the late 1960′s, with her song “Those were the days” and in particular the lines in the chorus “we’d live the life we choose, we’d fight and never lose”.
    Life just didn’t work out for them and they are now totally jealous of the people, like John Key, who really were successful.
    I also think that for many of them the claimed actions at the time are mostly phantasy. Like the long retired rugby player for whom it is the case that the older they get the better they were.

    Vote: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  71. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    adze, the police failed to protect property and public safety with the tools they had. It would be reasonable force under the circumstances.

    I do not think rioting violent mobs should be able to attack others and destroy property, just because they are communists claiming the moral high ground.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 9 You need to be logged in to vote
  72. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    Remember that joke:

    Q. Why does it take the Springboks so long to unload the tour bus?

    A. Because Tobias can only carry two bags at a time.[ He was the only black in the Sringboks side.] :cool:

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  73. duggledog (1,105 comments) says:

    Wreck:

    Because it’s New Zealand.
    John Minto means less to me than Nelson Mandela, and Mandela means very little to me. Minto could only ever exist and be given oxygen in a funny old place like New Zealand.

    Even as a teenager, when I had South Africa, the ANC, the Soviet connection, and the numbers explained to me by a (black) South African I could see the dismantling of apartheid would end in an even bigger disaster.

    Minto is a dreamer like Mandela; nothing more. He’s a relic. I well recall Minto going on Radio Pacific the day Muldoon passed away. The hatred and venom he spouted while he was still warm was something I’ll never forget. I’m no fan of Muldoon at all but what sort of c*** goes on a national radio programme and shits on someone the day after they die?

    There is something seriously wrong with a person like that. Psycho.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 24 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  74. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    adze

    its just trolling, obviously been ignored elsewhere

    Vote: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  75. Longknives (4,041 comments) says:

    Perhaps some of the old coppers on here could clarify for me- I read somewhere once that Minto ‘recruited’ gang members for the violent protest (Mongrel Mob etc)? Luring them into the fray with the prospect of attacking and injuring Police officers..
    Is this true? Surely such people couldn’t have had a ‘social conscience’??
    If so- It seems a bit rich Minto and co taking the moral ‘high ground’ now…

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  76. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    “adze, the police failed to protect property and public safety with the tools they had. It would be reasonable force under the circumstances.”

    I would be surprised if you found a single cop willing to say that would have been the appropriate response.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  77. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Polly, we would all be fucked without you telling us what to think. Not trolling, I meant it. Outside of organised violent uprisings, the police regularly shoot people for far far far less.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  78. Longknives (4,041 comments) says:

    Dazzaman- It was a bit before my time but that Bok backline must have been sharp. Danie Gerber played against the All Blacks in ’81 and ’92…My South African friends reckon he was the greatest centre of all time during those years of isolation. Bill McLaren agreed and picked him at centre in his ‘Greatest Ever’ team…

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  79. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    I would be surprised if you found a single cop willing to say that would have been the appropriate response.

    I will ask the guy who gunned down a bloke who broke windows with a golf club. Cops regularly shot people when the cameras are not on them. Stop talking shit.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 16 You need to be logged in to vote
  80. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    PEB, it seems you’re right. Won’t happen again. :)

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  81. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    “….I read somewhere once that Minto ‘recruited’ gang members for the violent protest (Mongrel Mob etc)?…”

    I don’t know about that[I'm not, or were, a cop btw.] but I do know that a lot of CH-CH skinheads made the effort to travel from CH-CH to protests elsewhere around NZ. I don’t know if they were recruited or were just using it as an excuse to bash cops – as it is odd that known N***** haters supported the ending of apatheid.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  82. duggledog (1,105 comments) says:

    Longknives, no I think that’s urban myth

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  83. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    adze, tell ya what, prove me wrong. Go running around smashing up property and people with a softball bat dressed in helmet and protective gear, then when the cops turn up, charge them swinging your bat.

    See how it goes…

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 7 You need to be logged in to vote
  84. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    “the levels of extreme violence and the numbers, I believe the police should have opened fire on them with machine guns.”

    Even the dumb cops aren’t that dumb.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  85. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    jackinabox, at least not when there are witnesses. Try swinging a golf club at a cop when no one is around, or even driving a courier van !

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 7 You need to be logged in to vote
  86. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    Awesome player longknves……Lachie Cameron did as good a job as could be expected against such a powerful runner. I’m biased though & have never seen a better outside centre than Bruce Robertson….no one set up his winger better.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  87. BlairM (2,266 comments) says:

    Minto is a very nasty, bitter little man. Love is greater than hate. Mandela was not perfect, and he blew up some kids – make of that what you will – but he radiated peace and reconciliation. Minto radiates nothing but hate. I remember when they tried to name a street after him, I promised I would fly back to NZ just to tear that shit down.

    Vote: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  88. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    During the game in Wellington the gangs were at the forefront of the fighting…..we left that game quick smart. The streets were a mess.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  89. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Longknives

    They weren’t lured they were paid – its not a myth. The protesters were very organised. You had very committed marxists involved who had access to overseas money and union money- the Kelseys and the Mintos didn’t care about the tour it was about taking on society as can be seen by Minto’s sad life for the last 30 years. There were many genuine protesters and protest leaders. But for the marxists it was a real chance for major civil disobedience with a veneer of a decent cause.

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  90. duggledog (1,105 comments) says:

    Minto seems to have been born imbued with hatred and a complete absence of rational thought and common sense.

    He’s like George Beyer.

    When George was asked recently about how the Prostitution Reform Act hadn’t really had the desired effect, and women were being, as ever, treated like chattels, the callow bastard simply fobbed it off with (and I quote) ‘Yes I think I was a bit naive’.

    And that was that. No real media attention to it. One of the most controversial policies of the year and surely George’s defining moment and this glib statement was all we got.

    We’re so bereft of thinkers in this country. We get Beyer, Minto, Gareth Morgan, Turei and other oddballs choking the headlines. It’s tragic

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  91. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    Cops are cowards Kea, if you call them for help never mention the words firearm or shot because if you do they’ll wait at their “safe arrival point” until well after you have bled to death. If you want urgent help call the fire brigade, they’ll turn up pronto armed with axes and water cannons. I’ve never known a situation so bad that a cop couldn’t make it worse.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 10 You need to be logged in to vote
  92. Longknives (4,041 comments) says:

    PEB- So much for the urban myth about the Protesters being ‘noble humanitarians’..
    I can’t remember where I read it but I recall being shocked that the NZ media doesn’t mention the fact that so many of Minto’s ’81 ‘Heroes’ were simply criminal scum out to have a crack at the Police and decent ordinary folk wanting to watch a bit of footy..

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  93. mudrunner (82 comments) says:

    Minto’s greatest failure was that no one died during the protests. Should have done better.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 8 You need to be logged in to vote
  94. Longknives (4,041 comments) says:

    You reckon the Fire Brigade will strut heroically into an armed incident and rescue you Jackinabox?
    Still a bit lovestruck by that calendar you got last Christmas aren’t you??

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  95. Scott Chris (5,675 comments) says:

    my brother smashed Minto full on in the face ( between the gap in the helmet holding his baton horizontally ) several times. Minto went down like a sack of spuds.

    Then your brother is even more of cunt than you are laj. And a criminal to boot.

    Did he rape Louise Nicholas as well?

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 16 You need to be logged in to vote
  96. big bruv (12,328 comments) says:

    David Garrett

    “You must remember a basic tenet of left wing politics: What you did 30 years ago – if reprehensible – is OK now because it shows you have a broad life experience…If what you did 30 years ago was great, then you are and always were a shining example to Labour Youth…”

    Dead right, was it 30 years ago that Darien Fenton was a junkie?

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  97. questions (132 comments) says:

    “liarbors a joke (1,065 comments) says:
    December 9th, 2013 at 4:56 pm

    “Innocent people were badly hurt that day. Unfortunately John Minto was not one of them.”

    Dont worry. My brother was in the red squad 1981 .”

    I wonder if your brother was the useless pig my uncle decked, fell down flat on his back and wet himself.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 8 You need to be logged in to vote
  98. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    “safe arrival point”

    the skurge of health and safety out of control..fancy having Police arrive at an event and have to wait at a ” safe arrival point ”
    Police should be straight in guns loaded no pissing around…

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  99. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Mandela was not perfect, and he blew up some kids – make of that what you will – but he radiated peace and reconciliation.

    I can hardly imagine the mental contortions my friend needed to go through to write that ! :-|

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  100. Scott Chris (5,675 comments) says:

    Given the chance I would have happily bashed a dirty smelly hippy or two as well.

    Another fuckwit.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 14 You need to be logged in to vote
  101. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    “You reckon the Fire Brigade will strut heroically into an armed incident and rescue you Jackinabox?”

    If you tell them your house is on fire they will Longknives.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  102. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Then your brother is even more of cunt than you are laj. And a criminal to boot.

    Did he rape Louise Nicholas as well?

    Scott, Minto was attacking the police, along with thousands of other armed communists and thugs. If one man tried doing that, all suited up and armed, he would be shot dead.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  103. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    @Questions

    I dont know..I’ll ask him for you, but probably not.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  104. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    Yeah whatever scottchris…KB’s [deleted by DPF]

    [DPF: 50 demerits and 2 weeks ban]

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  105. Longknives (4,041 comments) says:

    liarbor’s a joke-

    If your brother decked that nasty little weasel Minto then tell him I’d like to buy him a beer! Bloody hero…
    *Scott Chris’s comment at 7pm is pretty bloody bizarre!

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  106. lilman (659 comments) says:

    Sorry but he was involved in a terror bombing which killed innocent people,he had all those years in jail to sort his mind out and changed his ways but if it were my child he killed Im afraid he would still be a murderer.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  107. lilman (659 comments) says:

    Kea you arse, youre just a prick.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  108. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    lilman, he was involved in more than that. Way more.

    He also failed to take steps to maintain law and order when in power. Many thousands died as a result, both black and white.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  109. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    Well thats scottchris for you LongK….he seems a bit wound out , maybe his boyfriend wont remove his butt plug?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  110. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Kea you arse, youre just a prick.

    Lilly, that is so tepid and mild an ad hominem attack it almost passes as praise around here :)

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  111. Dirty Rat (377 comments) says:

    Pete George (20,078 comments) says:
    December 9th, 2013 at 4:33 pm
    Another bob each way from Cunliffe, winning a trip but wanting to place himself in the good books of the leftie activists.

    yeaaahhhh and……….and you wrote this ?

    “I strongly opposed apartheid.
    I supported the right of a sporting tour to proceed.
    I supported the right to protest and supported some of the protest.
    I opposed some of the more extreme aspects of the protest.”

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  112. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    Dirty Rat – look through the other comments here. It shows a similar variety of views is common with those who lived through the tour.

    That’s quite different to Cunliffe playing politics while going for the trip.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  113. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    “……Given the chance I would have happily bashed a dirty smelly hippy or two as well.

    Another fuckwit….”

    FFS Scott Chris…………people who wear crash helmets to protests while carrying bats and pieces of wood……are NOT lawful protestors. Especially after their comrades have already burnt down a rugby stand and announced publicly that their intent is to be disruptive!!!!

    Grow up hater!

    Vote: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  114. Judith (5,660 comments) says:

    I never believed Minto was such a successful person, until I read this thread. His specialty and profession is getting attention and peeving people off – he’s done a bloody good job of it judging by what is said on here (with such enthusiasm).

    The best way to get your own back on Minto – don’t mention him.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  115. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    A measured response for rioting communists on NZ streets.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  116. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    “Sorry but he was involved in a terror bombing which killed innocent people”

    Got a link to that?

    “people who wear crash helmets to protests while carrying bats and pieces of wood ……are NOT lawful protestors”

    No they’re called riot police.

    Crash helmets, padded clothing and shields to protect against killer cops sounds sensible to me.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 8 You need to be logged in to vote
  117. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Got a link to that?

    I have:

    http://plaintruthmagazine.blogspot.co.nz/2008/06/stop-terrorist-nelson-mandela.html

    Or just google your own.

    • One count under the South African Suppression of Communism Act No. 44 of 1950, charging that the accused committed acts calculated to further the achievement of the objective of communism;

    • One count of contravening the South African Criminal Law Act (1953), which prohibits any person from soliciting or receiving any money or articles for the purpose of achieving organized defiance of laws and country; and

    • Two counts of sabotage, committing or aiding or procuring the commission of the following acts:

    1) The further recruitment of persons for instruction and training, both within and outside the Republic of South Africa, in:

    (a) the preparation, manufacture and use of explosives—for the purpose of committing acts of violence and destruction in the aforesaid Republic, (the preparation and manufacture of explosives, according to evidence submitted, included 210,000 hand grenades, 48,000 anti-personnel mines, 1,500 time devices, 144 tons of ammonium nitrate, 21.6 tons of aluminum powder and a ton of black powder);

    (b) the art of warfare, including guerrilla warfare, and military training generally for the purpose in the aforesaid Republic;

    (ii) Further acts of violence and destruction, (this includes 193 counts of terrorism committed between 1961 and 1963);

    (iii) Acts of guerrilla warfare in the aforesaid Republic;

    (iv) Acts of assistance to military units of foreign countries when involving the aforesaid Republic;

    (v) Acts of participation in a violent revolution in the aforesaid Republic, whereby the accused, injured, damaged, destroyed, rendered useless or unserviceable, put out of action, obstructed, with or endangered:

    (a) the health or safety of the public;
    (b) the maintenance of law and order;

    (c) the supply and distribution of light, power or fuel;
    (d) postal, telephone or telegraph installations;
    (e) the free movement of traffic on land; and
    (f) the property, movable or immovable, of other persons or of the state.
    </blockquote<

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  118. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    Source: The State v. Nelson Mandela et al, Supreme Court of South Africa, Transvaal Provincial Division, 1963-1964, Indictment.

    Well fuck me, a gestapo charge sheet, is that all you’ve got?

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  119. Sponge (108 comments) says:

    “Well fuck me, a gestapo charge sheet”

    Godwin already? Really jack you must try harder.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  120. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    jackinabox , you just don’t get it. Mandela was a communist. He was fighting for communism, not for blacks. He craved total control over everyone as an unelected dictator. And he killed blacks and whites to get it.

    Apartheid is nothing compared to the horrors of communism. During Mandela’s life time his commie comrades killed nearly 200 million people and tortured and oppressed many millions more. To put that astonishing figure into perspective, the Russians killed more people in the Ukraine in a year than the entire jewish holocaust. Some estimates of Mao go as high as 100 million dead. The list goes on.

    It still goes on today.

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  121. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    “….A measured response for rioting communists on NZ streets…..a gatling gun on a helicopter…”

    The Apaches have a round that covers about 2km in a bit over a second. As some airforce pilot said :

    “When the targets first realise we are in the area – they don’t even have time to bless themselves! :cool:

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  122. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    Is Sponge another name for Bludger?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  123. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    jackinabox , you just don’t get it. Mandela was a communist.

    You’ll be trotting out the dancing Cossacks next Kea. lol

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  124. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    “…Well fuck me, a gestapo charge sheet, is that all you’ve got?…”

    You’ll probably find pictures of the dead on the internet.

    Some bleed to death outside a bank after having their limbs blown off due to being victims of a car bomb.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  125. greybeard (46 comments) says:

    Kea, Pete George, Harriet and Duggledog ( Duggledog ??? ):
    I agree with all of you. In 1981 I was 33 and had 2 kids. I loved rugby, followed the tour. I loathed apartheid, but equally I loathed the New Zealanders who joined in the mindless destruction and mayhem in the name of Protest, when all it was was Cowardly and Mindless Violence. These unwitting idiots exhibited all the bad behaviour against which they claimed to object. !!!
    In my opinion, nothing that happened on that tour outside of the rugby ever contributed to the reversal of fortunes for the South Africans. South Africa has always been a violent country and I suspect that what occurred in NZ in 1981 was considered fairly normal behaviour over there, and that the rugby was more important.
    Mandela was not perfect but he showed that forgiveness, tolerance and logic can prevail against man’s more unsavoury behaviour. The comparison of NZ and South Africa is interesting: in the case of NZ we have a large, and largely white, majority which constantly capitulates to a much smaller group of non-whites who consider themselves to be the rightful owners of the land, while in South Africa they have a very small white minority who once ruled the place but are now dependent on the dictates of a far-larger non-white majority who consider that THEY own the place but who couldn’t run the country at all without the white minority.

    Vote: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  126. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    You’ll be trotting out the dancing Cossacks next Kea.

    Why ?

    Mandela was openly communist and was backed by Russia. It is not in dispute.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  127. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    • Two counts of sabotage, committing or aiding or procuring the commission of the following acts:

    Two power pylons blown over and not a single person killed or injured.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  128. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    I was strongly opposed to apartheid before the tour. With all the fuss over it I started to look at the issue more closely. I realised it was not so simple and I tempered my views. As much as apartheid troubled me deeply, it worked better for the people.

    It gives me no joy to predict that it will not be long before SA catches up with other African countries in their race to the bottom.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  129. martinh (824 comments) says:

    And Key like Banks still cant recall

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 7 You need to be logged in to vote
  130. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    “I was strongly opposed to apartheid before the tour. With all the fuss over it I started to look at the issue more closely. I realised it was not so simple and I tempered my views. As much as apartheid troubled me deeply, it worked better for the people.”

    Spoken like a true Afrikaner.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  131. nasska (9,489 comments) says:

    The silence from the remnants of the rent a mob when our own home grown Tangata Whenua advocate for apartheid in NZ is deafening.

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  132. Monique Angel (229 comments) says:

    The name of the political party that Mandela overthrew is quite insidious on the face of it. Suggestive of generations of a privileged people that denied others the right to participate in democracy. What was it called again?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  133. ross69 (3,637 comments) says:

    And Key like Banks still cant recall

    The reality is they can both recall but they’re too gutless to front up. Key supported the tour but he’s afraid he’ll be seen as being on the wrong side of history if he admits it.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  134. Simon (612 comments) says:

    Gastapo someone has Godwin the thread. I can do better.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  135. Sponge (108 comments) says:

    “Is Sponge another name for Bludger?”

    I am fairly confident jack that I pay more in tax every year than you earn in total. So you can fuck right off. So no I am not a bludger but I know that I support plenty of them – a fact that disgusts me.

    [edit] I mean my own personal tax and not that of my employees.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  136. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    ross69 – you might have missed an earlier question. What was your view of the tour in 1981?

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  137. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    Prior to the Sharpeville massacre Mandela promoted non violence but only a fool would turn the other cheek after the opposition left no doubt that he had no intention of making peaceful change.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  138. Nostalgia-NZ (4,685 comments) says:

    I would have liked JK to have invited Minto (not forgetting that the focus on Minto is not representative of the many who opposed the tour, he’s sort of fought his way to the front, and I suspect that many that didn’t support the tour also didn’t support Minto,) I doubt that Minto would have accepted because he doesn’t have the qualities admired by many that Mandela had. He showed that, as many others have done, by failing to accept that Mandela needed to change his ‘world view’ or was compelled to do so by having a searching mind and good practical sense when the opportunity came.

    There is hostility against Mandela from both sides, and that is evidenced by Minto apparently viewing him as a ‘sell out.’ None should make the mistake that the events that followed Mandela’s release were not those that befell a perfect man with a perfect world view. It would be naïve to think that Mandela was equipped for what followed, and possibly no man coming from his background or any other would have been equipped. There was false expectation and hope. Reading the pre-amble above vividly describes what ‘hope’ Mandela was to many of his supporters and perhaps we should appreciate that Minto displayed how fragile that unity and view was under it’s many heads of expectation.

    It’s interesting the anger against Mandela expressed by many, despite that the leader of our Country has left to honour him. There are dinosaurs and other strange beasts at work here. I’ve been expecting an argument from those who have consistently attacked Mandela since his death to rage over who should or should not attend his memorial service, today we see that some what.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  139. ross69 (3,637 comments) says:

    What was your view of the tour in 1981

    I was opposed to it Pete, and I was younger than John Key. In fact, I was 16. Isn’t it funny that I can recall where I stood but our illustrious leader doesn’t have the guts to say that he supported the tour. Have we ever had a more craven Prime Minister?

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 17 You need to be logged in to vote
  140. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    “Is Sponge another name for Bludger?”

    I am fairly confident jack that I pay more in tax every year than you earn in total. So you can fuck right off. So no I am not a bludger but I know that I support plenty of them – a fact that disgusts me.

    [edit] I mean my own personal tax and not that of my employees.

    I don’t believe you Sponge, you sound like a delusional bludger to me.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  141. Sponge (108 comments) says:

    “‘I don’t believe you Sponge, you sound like a delusional bludger to me.”

    I don’t care. You are quite clearly a fool.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  142. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    Ross – maybe it meant more to you than it did to Key and most New Zealanders. Holding people forever culpable for something they didn’t care much about is an odd display of self righteousness.

    The tour was a significant event in New Zealand history but it only defined forever the views of a very small minority who thought the world revolved around them.

    Minto was talking today about being “on the right side of history”. By the lack of political success he has had that’s a very ironic attitude. It’s not as if what he has done has had anywhere near as much global impact as Stalin. Despite his efforts.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  143. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    I once had a neighbour who assured me that before he fell on hard times he owned half of Wellington. You remind of him Sponge.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  144. Sponge (108 comments) says:

    Jack, can you not do better than that? As a trolling effort it is pretty poor.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  145. Yoza (1,348 comments) says:

    It never ceases to amaze me, reading Kiwiblog, how ugly vicious and deluded the far right really are. At least Kea has popped bavk out of the closet and confirmed his support for white supremacy, its just a shame the rest of you sickos aren’t as honest.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 17 You need to be logged in to vote
  146. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    It’s highly ironic to see threads at The Standard, The Daily Post and Dim-Post where the self anointed high and mighty who seem to think that anyone deemed not to have been anti apartheid enough (in their opinion) are forever condemned as inferior.

    Soon we will have signs on buses directing those not staunch enough in 1981 to confine themselves to the back seats. If Mana wins the next election.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  147. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    Well said Yoza. Giz a job lol

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  148. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    I retired from here a while ago but when I see shit commenting like a normal human being I get restless in my grave.

    “1979 The Queen Street nightclub murder
    On 1 July Brian Ronald McDonald shot 17-year-old Margaret Bell in the head. The bullet was intended for the doorkeeper of a Queen Street nightclub, who had refused him entrance. Read more (NZ Listener).”

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  149. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    At least Kea has popped bavk out of the closet and confirmed his support for white supremacy

    LOL :)

    Herr SS-Gruppenführer Kea !

    Yoza, I do not look down my nose at Mouldy just because they are crap navigators.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  150. edhunter (434 comments) says:

    Damn Johnboy, he really is scum & someones opinion which even 35yrs after the event I have no need or desire to read. Thanks for the info.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  151. itstricky (1,139 comments) says:

    The best way to get your own back on Minto – don’t mention him.

    Exactly my point. And I still don’t get what he’s done recently that means that we use the death of a public figure to drag all this anger on the guy up out of nowhere?

    Is this post not the equivalent of say:

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2013/11/using_a_tragedy_for_political_point_scoring.html

    This, for example?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  152. Monique Angel (229 comments) says:

    Jk couldn’t invite Minto because Minto’s an Asshat.
    You’re an Asshat too Yoza in that special, “ugly, vicious and deluded” way that identifies the left
    All doe eyes and kissy lips about the rights of underprivileged when interviewed by the media but the first to turn truly violent like Mandela. RIP, the socialist menace. Still, If you’re denied the right to vote, you’ve been deemed subhuman and only forcible means will convince the minority as to the rights of the majority.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  153. burt (7,085 comments) says:

    Sponge

    I know a chick who’s nickname is Sponge… Great girl. Knows how to have a good time.

    But that aside, what have you got to say on this Minto situation Sponge or are you just here trolling as well. In the context of this thread, it’s not explaining much about your position to know that you (one anon person) claim to pay more tax than (another anon person) earns.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  154. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    I take it then that you don’t swallow on the first date Monique Angel? :)

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  155. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Still, If you’re denied the right to vote, you’ve been deemed subhuman and only forcible means will convince the minority as to the rights of the majority.

    Ah yes… those democratic voting rights communist countries are so very famous for ?

    Those countries under the USSR were the envy of the world. Understandably Mandela wanted that for blacks too so he snuggled up with the commies.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  156. Monique Angel (229 comments) says:

    It takes a lot of top shelf liquor to get me to swallow JB.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  157. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Johnboy, looks like you were right :)

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  158. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    I always buy my spirits by the case Monique! :)

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  159. Monique Angel (229 comments) says:

    And Yoza, I mean Asshat in the kindest possible way. The same way I’m an Asshat for staying up all hours drinking gin and arguing with socialist Asshats on social media.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  160. burt (7,085 comments) says:

    Johnboy

    I think Monique wants you to ask her out for a drink. Forget it mate, if it takes shit loads of expensive liquor to be prepared to please you so then she ain’t going to be much chop once the initial rush has passed.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  161. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    I thought Asshat was the guy that ran Syria at the mo! :)

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  162. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    Pull your head in burt when I’m on a roll.

    It takes a gallon or two to get wimmin to think I look handsome! :)

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  163. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    staying up all hours drinking gin and arguing with socialist Asshats on social media.

    Monique Angel, I don’t think you will be judged too harshly around here with that habit ;)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  164. Sponge (108 comments) says:

    Burt,

    Fair comment (and I am not the bird you know). My position is that Mandela went to jail as a convicted terrorist. That is a fact. He came out of jail as a statesman. A statesman who produced a South Africa that did not implode – which was an absolute miracle. As a man that is now being turned into a saint – I am not so sure.

    Minto? Well he is just a bitter, angry failed commie. He represents noting positive about NZ (or anything in fact).

    Tax? Well I fart through silk and drive an XR6 turbo, Disco4 and Haines Signature 670c – all true. If you don’t believe me then so be it.

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  165. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    I just drive a car :(

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  166. Johnboy (13,342 comments) says:

    I can drive a nail quite well if I remember to keep my thumb out of the way.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  167. Nostradamus (2,758 comments) says:

    Johnboy (12,019 comments) says:
    December 9th, 2013 at 11:18 pm

    I retired from here a while ago but when I see shit commenting like a normal human being I get restless in my grave.

    You can’t retire yet – 13,000 comments here we come!

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  168. RF (1,128 comments) says:

    Time tends to cloud ones memory of past events. I was at a large number of the games and saw many well meaning people who were peacefully protesting, hijacked by radical left wing idiots and gang members. My memory of Minto was that he was a coward who made plenty of noise up front and then slunk back into the crowd when the going got rough. Actually the Silent T reminds me of Minto.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  169. RRM (8,988 comments) says:

    My mother in law was at one of the protests.

    Didn’t hurt anyone.

    Got bashed by some dirty fucking cop coward though.

    Doesn’t seem at all bitter now.

    I admire that.

    What scum the cops were then. Just a gang.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  170. Yoza (1,348 comments) says:

    The difference between John Minto and that Bolger, Key, McKinnon cartel is John Minto actually possess a spine, the other three invertebrates never needed anything resembling a backbone as their entire careers have consisted of crawling, bowing and scraping.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 9 You need to be logged in to vote
  171. Manolo (12,621 comments) says:

    …is John Minto actually possess a spine…

    All red rats have one.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  172. Ed Snack (1,535 comments) says:

    Minto doesn’t have a spine, he’s gutless. He only supported anti-apartheid as a means to impose communism on South Africa, he was, if you listened to him talking, a crypto-racist like most lefties. Remember him leaping out and bashing a protestor at a Labour party do a few years ago, clear assault and no prosecution, which was typical of Minto, very brave when well protected from retaliation but never at the front when the going got tough.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  173. Yoza (1,348 comments) says:

    You’re an idiot Ed. How is John Minto a crypto-racist, and what the hell is a crypto-racist?
    John Minto, regardless of what you think of his political leanings, has steadfastly stood for his convictions in the face of extraordinarily violent state orchestrated terror.

    Yours is the path of comfort and cowardice, the cowering conformist is the soft option. You’re only fooling yourself, Ed.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  174. Tom Jackson (2,235 comments) says:

    Some weeks afterwards, I realised that the real blame for that beating lay at the feet of those like John Minto. He had stirred the country up, he had whipped the lefty student faculty into a frenzy, he had orchestrated the pitch invasion, and then melted away into the night, leaving everyone else to deal with the fallout.

    Oh bullshit.

    I don’t have much time for Minto, but he was spot on about the tour. It should never have gone ahead and exposed half of New Zealand as mindless, churlish, racist scum who cared more about watching rugby than human rights.

    The blame for the beating in this case falls to the police for not doing their job properly.

    What’s really good about the Springbok tour is watching right wingers contort themselves to explain how they were pro tour but not really racist at all. Get real. If you were pro tour, you were a bigot and an enabler of racial prejudice, plain and simple. If you can’t bring yourself to admit that now, then you’re twice as bad.

    The anti tour people were 100% right and you were 100% wrong. There’s a lot in politics that is debatable, but this isn’t.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  175. Tom Jackson (2,235 comments) says:

    Jk couldn’t invite Minto because Minto’s an Asshat.

    So that would be one more asshat to join a delegation of asshats.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  176. Yoza (1,348 comments) says:

    Well said, Tom!

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  177. Tom Jackson (2,235 comments) says:

    You’re an idiot Ed.

    They’re all stupid, Yoza.

    It’s like trying to argue with single-cell organisms.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 7 You need to be logged in to vote
  178. Tom Jackson (2,235 comments) says:

    New Zealand has a bad record regarding apartheid. We caused an Olympic boycott among other things. The anti-tour protests at least went some way to removing that stain.

    My Dad was one of the anti-tour people. Why? Because he’d actually been to South Africa and seen what it was like.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  179. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    “RRM (8,362 comments) says:

    December 10th, 2013 at 8:37 am

    My mother in law was at one of the protests.

    Didn’t hurt anyone.

    Got bashed by some dirty fucking cop coward though.

    Doesn’t seem at all bitter now.

    I admire that.

    What scum the cops were then. Just a gang.”

    The cops still are still scum RRM, in another time and another place they’d be clicking their heels with the worst of them.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  180. wikiriwhis business (3,286 comments) says:

    ‘Mandela was openly communist and was backed by Russia. It is not in dispute.’

    But…Mandela wasn’t involved in arms. buying, selling or distributing.

    If that was the case most people on this blog would have a case.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  181. In Vino Veritas (136 comments) says:

    Yoza, John Minto stood for communism, not anti-apartheid. That is all. And no one should have respect for a man that wants to take away personal freedom and rights as he does. As Farrar says above, Minto was astounded by Mandela’s rejection of communism, and I have heard a similar thing from another source.
    In terms of the tour, the supporters of the tour vastly outnumbered the protesters. Somehow, in the passage of time, the protest movement has made it look like it was the other way around. And they were not passive, I can tell you, since I went to a few of the Springbok games, including the Lancaster Park test. At that game, there were just over 50,000 in the ground, there were about 5,000 protesters (and that is being generous), who among other things, spat on fans, hit them with signs and threw objects ranging from fruit to rocks. And under provocation like this, no fan retaliated, as the police politely asked us to keep moving along. If they’d been outside the ground after the game finished, there would have been a bloodbath. Minto is a fanatical follower of a system that has failed wherever it has been introduced, and has copped what he deserved.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  182. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    WE WANT RUGBY, WE WANT RUGBY, WE WANT RUGBY and then a veritable storm of cans and bottles from the rugby fans onto the heads of the protesters. That’s how I remember it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  183. Rhodie (28 comments) says:

    This is a story about Nelson Mandela, the world-famous “freedom fighter” and “democrat.” You’ll have to pardon those slightly sardonic quotes, because I’m afraid this is that kind of story: a bit iconoclastic, and likely to provoke howls of outrage from Western liberals who see Mandela as a benign black moderate who led an army of hymn-singing Uncle Toms to the promised land.

    The technical term for those liberals is “useful idiot,” but even I must concede that their intervention was actually quite intelligent, back in the 1950s, when this all started. In those days, good men were weak, and their apartheid adversaries invincible on all but one score: propaganda. The war of perceptions thus became the most critical of all battlefields, with the African National Congress constantly seeking to exaggerate apartheid’s evils while portraying itself as “good” in a way that was universally appealing.

    In the early sixties, Special Branch detectives came upon a piece of evidence that made this a bit tricky in Mandela’s case – a handwritten essay titled, “How To Be A Good Communist,” in which the leader of the ANC’s newly-formed military wing opined that South Africa would become “a land of milk and honey” under Communist rule. We were told that Mandela was innocently toying with Marxist ideas, trying to understand their appeal, but this made little sense. Almost all his co-conspirators were Communists, wedded to a Sovietist doctrine that envisaged a two-phase ending to the SA struggle – a “national democratic revolution,” followed by second revolution in which the Marxist-Leninist vanguard took power.

    If Mandela wasn’t in on this plot, it would have been exceptionally stupid of him to participate in it, and Mandela was not stupid. On the other hand, he had to be very careful what he said on this score. The ANC needed the support of Western liberals, and by l964, those folks had come to realize that Communist revolutions inevitably led to the outcome satirized in George Orwell’s Animal Farm – a dictatorship of pigs who hogged the best things for themselves, impoverished the proletariat and murdered or imprisoned dissenters by the million.

    In such a climate, one didn’t want to focus attention on that hand-written “milk and honey” essay. On the contrary: one wanted the world to see Mandela as a democrat, willing to die for values that Westerners held sacred. Toward this end, Mandela and his lawyers (with a bit of help from British journalist Anthony Sampson) crafted a masterful speech for Mandela to deliver from the dock during the Rivonia trial.

    “The ideological creed of the ANC is, and always has been, the creed of African nationalism,” he said. “It is true that there has been close cooperation between the ANC and the Communist Party. But cooperation in this case is merely proof of a common goal – the removal of white supremacy.”

    Mandela went to describe himself as a democrat in the classic Western sense, and a fervent admirer of the British and American systems of governance. “Africans just want a share in the whole of South Africa,” he said. “Above all, we want equal political rights, because without them our disabilities will be permanent…It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.”

    These words rang out around the world, and still echo today. Type Mandela’s name into Google, and you come upon millions of essays, articles and book-length hagiographies depicting Madiba in exactly the way he presented himself in that speech: a black liberal, driven to take up arms by a white supremacist state that seemed utterly impermeable to calls for dialogue.

    The Rivonia statement has become the foundational text of a semi-religious movement that seeks to canonize Mandela as the 20th century’s greatest proponent of freedom and democracy. Or perhaps I should say, “bourgeois democracy,” in order to distinguish between democracy of the sort practiced in Britain and America and the diseased parody encountered in Marxist-Leninist police states. Nelson Mandela never stood for that sort of democracy.

    Or did he?

    It takes a brave man to address that question, and lo, one such has emerged. Professor Stephen Ellis heads the African Studies Centre at the University of Leiden, and holds the Desmond Tutu chair of social sciences at the Vrije University of Amsterdam. He is also one of the great authorities on the ANC, author of Comrades Against Apartheid and a former editor of Africa Confidential, a magazine valued for its authoritative gossip about what was really going inside the anti-apartheid movement in the l980s.

    Now Ellis has published a study that sheds startling new light on Mandela’s early political career and the circumstances under which he launched his armed struggle against apartheid. The study contains at least one revelation that can only be described as a bombshell — Mandela was, at least for a time, secretly a member of South Africa’s Communist Party.

    The strange thing about Ellis’s bombshell is that South Africans appear to be deaf to its detonation. I know this because I started hyping it to fellow journalists the instant it appeared in print. To a man (or woman) they all shrugged and said, “So what? It’s not really a story.” This tells us something interesting about South Africans: we are at once riven with ideological obsessions and hopelessly ideologically na�ve.

    The blame for this rests largely on our charming and literate Communists, who go to great pains in their memoirs to disguise the true nature of their beliefs. They tell us that they stood for fairness, justice, and racial equality, and against all forms of exploitation and oppression. They’d also like us to believe that their party was outlawed in l950 because they treated blacks as friends and wanted them to enjoy the franchise. Well, yes. I suppose this was a factor, but the overriding consideration that led to the SACP’s banning was something else entirely.

    At the Yalta Conference of l945, Soviet dictator Josef Stalin assured the Western powers that all the countries his forces occupied at the end of World War 2 would be allowed to determine their own destinies via free elections. With his international image in mind, Stalin instructed commissars in the occupied territories to observe the outward forms of “bourgeois democracy.” Towards this end, liberals and social democrats were lured into broad fronts in which all key decisions were secretly made by tiny Communist minorities, with the backing of the Soviet’s secret police apparatus.

    These Communist conspirators then staged spurious elections that brought Soviet puppet regimes to power throughout Eastern Europe, usually with majorities implausibly close to 100 percent. Historians concede that Tito of Yugoslavia was genuinely popular, but elsewhere, the rule of Soviet proxies was imposed by deceit and enforced by tyranny. Tens of thousands of class enemies were executed, millions imprisoned, all vestiges of freedom eradicated.

    The problem with Communist parties, including the South African one, is that they blindly supported this Soviet outrage, and seemed intent on pulling similar moves everywhere. If Joe Slovo and Rusty Bernstein were still alive, they’d stoutly deny such charges, but they’d be lying. We know this because Rusty’s wife Hilda lived long enough to acquire a shrewd understanding of herself and the Communist movement of which she was a life-long part. “Joe and Rusty were hardline Stalinists,” she said in a 2004 interview. “Anything the Soviets did was right. They were very, very pro-Soviet.”

    It is important to note that Mrs. Bernstein was by no means suggesting that her husband or Joe were evil men. On the contrary: they were religious zealots who genuinely believed that the Soviets had discovered the cure for all human misery.

    “I’ve often thought about this,” she said. “They wanted something bigger than themselves, something to believe in. People are always seeking for the meaning of life and if you’re not religious, what is it? To us, working together in a movement that had rules and attitudes and comradeship gave important meaning to our lives.”

    In short, being a Communist was much like being a Christian. One studied the sacred texts of Marx and Engels, engaged in polemics as a form of prayer and ruthlessly suppressed all doubts, including one’s own. Mrs. Bernstein says she was adept at this until l956, when Kruschev revealed the appalling extent of his predecessor Stalin’s atrocities (he murdered around 16 million people, either by having them shot for thought crimes or starving them to death with mad policies). Her husband dismissed these reports as “lies and capitalist propaganda,” but Hilda’s bones told her it was all true.

    “We had a fight,” she said, “a battle that went on into the small hours of the morning. I wanted to leave, but we had three dependent children, and there wasn’t any possible way in which we could have separated economically and so on. So we stayed together, and I accommodated myself by refusing to talk about it any more.”

    And so it came to pass that Hilda Bernstein, the secret doubter, had a ringside seat for the epochal events of the late fifties and early sixties, a time when her husband Rusty was one of South Africa’s most senior Communists, and one of Mandela’s closest allies moreover.

    It was in this capacity that she learned of Madiba’s secret membership in the Communist sect. “Mandela denies that he was ever a member of the party,” she said, “but I can tell you that he was a member of the party for a period.”

    When this interview appeared on the website of the O’Malley archive, it caused a brief frisson among old Cold Warriors, especially when former SACP central committee member Brian Bunting verified Hilda’s account. The interview also caught the eye of the aforementioned Professor Ellis, a lifelong student of the byzantine inner workings of SACP. He notes that the SACP of the early sixties was of necessity a pathologically secretive organization, a network of cells with little or no knowledge of each other and no official membership records.

    “SACP members were formally required to keep their membership secret,” says Ellis. “In principle, only the members of each four or five-person cell knew each other. One person reported to the next higher level, and so on. But there was also a special category of ultra-secret members who were not required to join a cell and whom even very senior party members might not know about.” With this in mind, Ellis proceeded very cautiously before publishing anything about Mandela’s apparent role in the Communist conspiracy.

    One item in his files was an old police report claiming that two arrested Communists had identified Mandela as an SACP member. A similar admission appeared in the minutes of a 1982 SACP meeting. The final breakthrough came when Russian researcher Irina Filitova interviewed veteran conspirator Joe Matthews, who confirmed that Mandela served on the party’s innermost central committee alongside him. “In the light of this evidence,” Ellis concludes, “it seems most likely that Nelson Mandela joined the party in the late l950s or in 1960, and that he was co-opted onto the Central Committee in the latter year, the same year as Joe Matthews.”

    Even as I write this I sense that I am losing the average South African. I can almost see you shrugging and saying, “So? This still isn’t a story.” But it is a story, and here’s why: if Ellis’s evidence is correct, the fatal decision to launch a war against apartheid had nothing to do with the ANC. It was a decision taken unilaterally by the Communist Party, and then imposed on ANC president Albert Luthuli by a prominent African nationalist who was secretly a member of the Communist underground. His name: Nelson Mandela.

    It seems fair to say that black South Africans have entertained thoughts of armed revolt since the day Jan van Riebeeck landed in Table Bay. It is therefore clear, as Ellis stresses in his landmark paper, that no political party held a patent on the term armed struggle. The Pan-Africanist Congress was dead keen on it, and elements in the ANC thought it was inevitable from the early fifties onwards.

    The difference between those organizations and the Communist Party is that peaceful change via the ballot box was never really on the Communist agenda, because that sort of change invariably left the capitalist edifice standing. “Classes do not commit suicide,” said Joe Slovo, a dutiful acolyte of Vladimir Lenin. Enemies of the working class had to be undermined, subverted, and conclusively defeated before the socialist millennium could begin.

    There was a time when this socialist millennium did not seem particularly attractive to South Africa’s so-called “bourgeois nationalists,” Marxist code for Africans who would have been perfectly happy to defeat the Boers in a bourgeois democratic election and then help themselves to a fairer share of the nation’s riches. Communists did not approve of “bourgeois nationalists,” and vice versa, which is one reason why Nelson Mandela spent the l940s breaking up Communist rallies with his fists.

    In the early fifties, however, the SACP realized that cooperating with the nationalists was likely to hasten the fall of the Boers, thus creating conditions conducive to a more rapid advance towards true socialism. At more or less the same time, nationalists like Mandela realized that the Communists could bring several desirables to the party. Around half of them were white. They had cars, houses, telephones, organizational skills and access to funding. Soon, Communists were supporting the ANC’s legal campaigns and recruiting ANC members into their own underground party.

    As Ellis observes, this strategy did not enjoy the approval of the high priests of Marxist-Leninist revolutionary science, who were located in Moscow. It was a home-grown initiative, devised as a means of amplifying the influence of a tiny body of true believers. (At the time, the SACP had barely 500 members.) The SACP was thus delighted to discover, at a 1960 conference in Moscow, that these high priests were now thinking along similar lines. The imperial powers were pulling out of Africa, and alliances with previously detestable nationalists provided a way for tiny bands of Communist intellectuals to stay in the game, and perhaps wind up in control of a few key ex-colonies.

    Out of this emerged the SACP’s new revolutionary doctrine, which has always reminded me of the hoary old fable in which a scorpion convinces a frog to carry it across a river. The frog (or bourgeois nationalist) does all the work, staging a “democratic national revolution” that topples the imperial or colonial power. The scorpion (representing the Communist cause) goes along for the ride, only to sting the frog to death just as it reaches the far bank. The punchline of the original remains entirely apposite: scorpions do such things because that is their nature.

    Something else happened in l960, something very important. The catalyst was the PAC, a movement of hardline African nationalists who’d broken away from the ANC the previous year on the grounds that it was “dominated by white Communists” whose ultimate loyalties were open to question (see above). In April, l960, the PAC staged a nationwide protest against the hated pass laws. In Sharpeville, police opened fire on a crowd of PAC supporters, killing an estimated 69. The resulting outburst of rage shook the apartheid government to its core, and led to the outright banning of both the PAC and ANC.

    From afar, it seemed that the mood in South Africa had at last turned revolutionary, which is presumably why Joe Matthews and Michael Harmel of the SACP were given a stellar reception when they turned up in Beijing a few months later to canvass support for armed struggle.

    According to Ellis, the Chinese had previously been sceptical of such plans, but now, the SACP delegates were considered so important that Chairman Mao himself took time to meet them. They were accorded a similar honour in Moscow, where they apparently stayed in Stalin’s former dacha while conducting top-secret talks with senior Soviet officials.

    The precise outcome of these discussions remains uncertain, but Ellis presumes that Matthews and Harmel came away with pledges of support, because the SACP now moved swiftly forward, adopting a policy of armed struggle at a conference in Johannesburg “towards the end of 1960.”

    It now became necessary for the SACP to convince the ANC to join its initiative. White Communists couldn’t act in this regard, because they weren’t allowed to join the racially exclusive ANC or take part in its deliberations. The task thus fell to black ANC leaders who wore two hats – which is to say, were members of both the ANC and the SACP. In some cases, this joint ANC-SACP affiliation was open and well-known, at least to those in the underground. In others, it was secret. The most important of these secret members was the charismatic Nelson Mandela.

    On the day the SACP took its fateful decision, Mandela was a defendant in the Treason Trial, a marathon affair that had been dragging on since l956. The rest of South Africa was extremely tense, but inside Judge Rumpff’s courtroom, the atmosphere was oddly congenial, considering that Mandela and his co-accused were on trial for high treason, and that the three judges were officials of a white supremacist regime that Mandela frequently characterized as “Nazi.”

    In theory, the gap between the white judges and the mostly black accused was unbridgeable, but these men had been staring at one another across the courtroom for years, sparring, joking, taking each other’s measure and acquiring a measure of mutual respect.

    All the accused were out on bail, but when they were re-detained during the post-Sharpeville State of Emergency, Judge Bekker’s wife came to their aid, running errands on their behalf and carrying messages to their families. Judge Kennedy was so impressed by the pro-ANC testimony of Professor ZK Matthews that he came down from the bench and shook Matthews’ hand, saying, “I hope we meet again under better circumstances.” Judge Rumpff was a grumpy old Afrikaner and a reputed Broederbonder, but even he seemed to be softening.

    On March 23, l961, Rumpff took the unprecedented step of interrupting the defence’s closing argument, saying, in effect, we don’t really need to hear this. Some of the accused took this to mean that the judges had decided to disregard the evidence and hang them – the predictable totalitarian outcome. They were wrong. A week later, Rumpff asked the accused to rise, and pronounced every one of them innocent.

    This was a dumbfounding outcome, given the enormous resources the apartheid state had devoted to the treason case. Prime Minister Hendrik Verwoerd was in the habit of telling the world that most blacks supported the principle of separate development, and that only a handful of misguided troublemakers opposed it. Rumpff’s judgement annihilated that argument. In rejecting the state’s case, he had in effect ruled that the ANC’s cause was just, its grievances legitimate, and its strategy of non-violent defiance acceptable in the eyes of reasonable men.

    This outcome hugely strengthened the hand of ANC president Albert Luthuli, a devout Christian who continued to believe that peaceful change was possible in South Africa. After the Sharpeville shootings, his stance was bitterly criticized by ANC radicals, who thought the time for talking was over. Rumpff’s verdict suggested otherwise. It showed that South Africa was still a land of law, with judges willing to hand down decisions that infuriated the ruling party.

    South Africa also had a relatively free press, a vigorous democracy (albeit for whites only) and, as Mandela acknowledges in Long Walk To Freedom, a police force that still conformed to British norms, with due process respected and torture at this stage unheard-of. Some observers saw Rumpff’s verdict as a watershed of sorts, a development that could easily have led to further liberalization.

    Nelson Mandela was totally disinterested. In Long Walk To Freedom, he writes that he went underground within hours of Rumpff’s verdict. Officially, his mission was to organize popular support for a national convention, but Ellis thinks this unlikely. “A close analysis of the campaign for a national convention concludes that this initiative was primarily intended to provide proponents of armed struggle with a paper trail that would justify their forthcoming change of policy,” he writes.

    In other words, the SACP was angling to regain the moral high ground. It knew that the verdict had come as a surprise to international observers, who were left wondering if Verwoerd’s regime was indeed as evil as it was held to be. But the SACP also knew that Verwoerd could be relied on to reject any call for a national convention, thus restoring his reputation as an intransigent racist. As Ellis notes, this would allow the party to present the coming declaration of war “in the best possible light for public and international consumption.”

    The second leg of Mandela’s underground mission was of course to convince ANC president Albert Luthuli to follow the lead the Communists had taken. Luthuli was not a pacifist per se, but he believed that non-violent options remained viable. Like many others in the ANC and even the SACP, he also believed it would be folly of the highest order to take up arms at a point when the ANC was still struggling to organize effective protests.

    Luthuli and Mandela had it out in June l961, at a tumultuous meeting of the ANC’s national executive in Tongaat, Natal. The debate raged through the night, but when the sun rose, Mandela was triumphant; the ANC had authorized him to launch Umkhonto we Sizwe, and to start making preparations for war against the apartheid state.

    This is Mandela’s version – or more accurately, one of his versions. In Long Walk, he acknowledges that the outcome of his clash with Luthuli was actually very messy. “The policy of the ANC would still be that of non-violence,” he writes, and the new military organization was required to be “entirely separate from the ANC.” Luthuli himself remained committed to non-violence until his death six years later.

    Reading between the lines, Mandela seems to be suggesting that Luthuli was willing to turn a blind eye to his military adventure, provided it did not damage the mother organization. Durban Communist Rowley Arenstein rejected this out hand. “Luthuli was simply brushed aside,” he said. “Adoption of armed struggle by the ANC was the act of a Johannesburg SACP clique, a hijacking.”

    Arenstein was subsequently purged from the party. Mandela returned to Johannesburg to plan his sabotage campaign, heedless of the counsel of men with clearer heads. “If you throw a stone into the window of a man’s house,” said SACP general secretary Moses Kotane, “you must be prepared for him to come out and chase you. The backlash will be fantastic. The police will go mad.”

    The first MK bombs went off on December 16, 1961. The rest is history.

    - article by Rian, August 16, 2011

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  184. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  185. wikiriwhis business (3,286 comments) says:

    I enjoyed hearing on talkback last night how Apartheid was partly defeated because South African tourists were tired of being treated with disdain when they travelled overseas.

    “Eww, you’re South African. How beastly.”

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  186. RRM (8,988 comments) says:

    I see from the statuses of the Facebook left this morning, that the call has now moved to “Send Minto INSTEAD OF the Prime Minister!”

    As if a pissing contest about who’s more anti-apartheid than who wasn’t tasteless enough – a serious suggestion that the elected leader of our country should snub Mandela’s funeral, and some guy who protested Apartheid one time back in the day should go as the official representative of New Zealand.

    The internet – giving children a voice since Nineteen eighty something…

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  187. Duxton (544 comments) says:

    Odysseus: “…And he now would like us to believe that he cannot remember his position on such a cataclysmic event…”

    The ’81 Tour wasn’t a cataclysmic event! The All Blacks won the series! If they lost….well, that would have been cataclysmic!

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  188. MH (558 comments) says:

    Intercept of harawira’s speech by Foreign affairs and Dunne

    Kia Ora Horis, White Mother F..ers, Mandelians, put down ya spears;
    I come to bury Mandela , not to eat him.
    I said to me mum,without you it’s a devil of a job to get a good seat at a tangi
    So I paid my own way cause I’m nobodies darkie
    Quite frankly I’d get more help from a trip on a bike with Rev Brian Tamaki
    The noble KeyUS,Has told you he can’t remember the fellah Mandela:
    If it were so, it was a bloody shame
    And prievously Id’ve have answer’d back no shit,
    cause in 1981 I was offside during most of the game;
    Here, under leave of Absence I come alone, —
    For Keyus and Bolgus are Rt Honorable men;
    So are they all, All these world leaders suckers, brothers, —
    But I come to korero at Mandela’s tangi
    He was my bro, role model and looked like me:
    But the US says he was a communist;
    And Obama is now an honorable Kenyan.
    Ambition should be made of mana:
    The ANC? Hell, we’re still having trouble in te reo with our ABC
    Yet the Brute Iti says he knew FA about our Triti;
    I three times presented him a koha from Sharples,
    he said nah he had scruples and did right to refuse: was this sedition?
    Yet President Bush says he was just the right type due for rendition;
    And, sure, he’s an honourable man,yeah right.
    I korero not to disprove what the US spoke,
    But here I am to speak what I do know, hand me a coke.
    You all did grease him up once, without real heart:
    Where were you all when the hikoi called
    when JC and Minto wept,Mandela slept
    Who gave up the dole for Halt all racist Tours?,
    to mourn for him now,bleed’n hell,it’s the Boers!
    And men have lost their reason. Nix minute;
    My heart and cigs is in the coffin there with Mandela,
    none of this puha When I go, it’s gonna be like a viking on the way to valhella.
    tena koutou Katoa

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  189. rouppe (852 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson at:
    December 10th, 2013 at 10:21 am

    The blame for the beating in this case falls to the police for not doing their job properly.

    I don’t agree. It was chaos that night. There was disorder all over the city. It would have been impossible to have it all contained. Unless by “not doing their job properly” you mean rounded up the entire mob of protesters before they invaded the pitch. I don’t think that was realistic either. It was being promoted as “peaceful protest” after all. Largely it was, until the break-away group wrecked that.

    Now I wasn’t a huge fan of Police back then either. Mainly because I was dodging them every time I went to the pub (legal age was 20 back then, I was only 18). I distinctly remember in the weeks leading up to the game having beers in The Riverina (I think it was, we had to change ‘local’ bars every 6 months because the gangs would move in and cause trouble) when there was a walk-in by the Police. Just the normal check the place out type of thing. But there was this really young copper, he had his baton out and was slapping it in his hands. Seems like he was looking for an excuse…

    The point of this post is that here in NZ we have a tendency to look at trouble, and blame one of those directly involved. That night it was me, and the bugger that thumped me. It would be easy to blame him. He was liquored up, didn’t bother to work out whether I had anything to do with anything and just whacked me cause he could and was angry. Could also blame the Police, for “not doing their job”, not anticipating there’s be trouble at campus maybe.

    But for me ultimately it came down to Minto and his mates. Was he right about apartheid? Yes, clearly. But the ends don’t justify the means. And then there’s the discussion elsewhere here that Minto wasn’t really about apartheid, he was about using apartheid to further a communist agenda. I don’t know about that, but causing the injury of people who don’t know you, aren’t involved in your campaign, and aren’t interested in your message is plain wrong.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  190. jackinabox (352 comments) says:

    The Left use National Socialism as their bogey man and the Right use communism as theirs.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote

Leave a Reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.